Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S4 E11 - 10 Things NOT To Do With Loss Families with Vallen Webb
Content Note: We discuss loss, so please make sure you take care of yourself and step away if needed.
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You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_02:Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and Brave podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague, and I am so excited to have you this week joining us for an episode. I feel like I'm very slow moving this week. I'm going to give this as a caveat before I start this episode. Even though I'm still sprinting along with, you know, my sports and arts and volunteering and hobbies. Oh my. Even though I've been going to bed like nine-ish. I had to take a nap today for 90 minutes. It was wild. So I listened to my body even though it was wildly inconvenient and I napped. Now I feel a little bit groggy so we are going to see how tired I am at 9 p.m. tonight. Oh I also started to learn to quilt this week which I'm really excited about. I'll keep you all updated on how this goes. I went to a lecture this week given by Dr. wanda thomas bernard and she is a canadian senator um and she was talking about representation that's what the it was a sober second thought on representation mattering um and senator bernard uh she is a social worker researcher activist i'm guessing probably author educator um she's a prof uh as well as sits on the senate um and listening to her speak was really incredible she's the first African Canadian Nova Scotian woman in the Senate and she calls for research in areas that are really near and dear to my heart like the true numbers around forced sterilization what happens there with the lack of informed consent what's needed for prison reform she did some interesting work for trans rights and she really demands this research to be the much needed checks and balances here in the Canadian government It just made me really grateful that there's people like her doing this work for vulnerable and underserved communities. And it kind of, it set the right tone for my week, especially because I still feel like I've got this, you know, crazy emotional hangover from the American election, which obviously has a huge impact on communities I care deeply about, people I care deeply about, and unfortunately a ripple effect up into Canada. Yeah. What else happened this week? Oh, I got a new client this week, and I'm already so in love with them. They're in their fourth trimester, so it's really early. But it's... It's, I don't know how to describe it. It's really fun starting my doula practice in a new place. I mean, hang on. I did really like the constant stream of word of mouth clients back in Toronto, which happens for, you know, when you're a doula for two decades in the same place. Don't get me wrong. That ease was real nice. However, here, I have this like like the same excitement energy as my early days as a doula. Like, oh, so many years ago when I would get my clients like, ah, my second client like that. and um it's really fun I'm only taking maybe four four clients a year and so far they're timing just perfectly um so I mean if anybody lives in uh the Antigonish area and is looking for doula care I do have a winter spot open um but no I'm really enjoying it a lot um I've also been doing a lot of one-on-one doula business consulting with folks and I'm very enjoying that as well um I I really love holding your hand through your startup and your scale up for your fertility, birth and postpartum business. So, I mean, if you want more clients and you're ready to do the work, grab some one-on-one time with me and let's do it together. It can be really lonely working alone and to collaborate with someone else, especially someone like me, this person, me, grew multiple six-figure birth businesses and even a seven-figure business. So it can really help to have somebody there as a sounding board and hold you accountable and, you know, really cheer you on and just point you in the right direction. So I also scrapped the newsletter last month. You might have seen it in my little write-up, but it wasn't really bringing me joy after 10 years of doing it. Actually, probably more. I think we started it probably like 14 years ago. And in its place, I introduced the Five Things Friday. I'd really love to hear about how you like it. For those of you on the mailing list do you like the five things friday i'm really enjoying putting it together and sharing experiences and products and books podcasts software tips and doing that each week i'm finding it very fun to put together like i get a bit giddy when i when i get to write it on thursday night for it to come up on friday morning um oh i have an ask while you're in that app Could you hit those five stars like right now in whatever app you're listening to, listening in, listening to this episode within? Those stars and reviews mean so much to us and they really help our ratings. And I think I'm going to put a little more effort into the ratings rather than just having the podcast be something passive that we share with our community. Also, Early Bird opened this week. Get your spot for our full spectrum doula training that starts March 2025. Make 2025 the year of the doula. And then you can go change the lives of families in your community. And we would really love to have you. And I mean, I know this is the best doula training out there because we make sure you are ready in every way needed to do fertility, pregnancy, birth, and parenting care with your clients. We get you ready literally body and soul. And we get you just like feeling really competent and confident. Yeah. It's great. It's a great program. Our maternal support practitioner training. It is open for registration. about this episode. So this week, we are going to be talking about infant loss. So I just wanted you to check in where your heart is right now before starting this episode or continuing on this episode. I would suggest that you wear your headphones for this one because we cuss and we talk about topics you might not discuss with the little ears around you. For this one, I'm joined by Valen Webb, who is the founder of Evelyn James& Co. She is a dear friend and an expert on bereavement. She's a doula and a mom. She has five children and she experienced a stillbirth five years ago when her husband was deployed. So she was completely alone when she gave birth to Evelyn and for a couple days after. And so Valen and I just finished building a 911 loss kit for doulas and it hit the shelves this weekend. We talk about the kit a little bit during the episode and I cannot highlight enough how necessary this is for all doulas to have like seriously when you're buying your tens machine and your notebook and I don't know all the things I can't even think of what's in a birth bag or postpartum bag right now even though I have a great list for you but seriously it is such a good thing for you to have and if you do have a client right now experiencing a loss it's an even better thing for you to make sure that you have have that tool available check out the show notes for more information and And for this episode, Valin and I wanted to share some of our major blunders when we first supported loss. And we gathered also a whole bunch of other mistakes we see happen to our clients. So without further ado, here is my chat with Valin this week, all about mistakes to avoid when talking to somebody who has just experienced a loss. Hello, Valin. Welcome to the Hot and Brave podcast. Hi.
UNKNOWN:Hi.
SPEAKER_02:I'm very excited you're here. The topic is a heavy one, but one of my favorite things about you is how you can create an accessibility and a lightness to talking about loss because the reality is when we do birth work, when we do care work, you know, we are going to be supporting death and it kind of comes with with that life cycle. And so I'm excited for us to talk about kind of the mistake perspective so that people know the things to avoid. And guys, we're going to share our stories today too. Like our own personal blenders so that you can see that there's a growth trajectory with this, like any type of work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there is. I think a lot of us too, we avoid it because it's, we're worried about making those mistakes in general. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be good. This will be a really good conversation.
SPEAKER_02:Excellent. So did you want to start with us sharing some of our personal blunders so that people can like warm up and not feel so shamey if they've, if you've made some of these mistakes?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay. The very first family that I served, like, this was probably six months after my loss and the whole time in the car, like on the way to the hospital, I'm like, what do I say? What do I do? What, what did this happen? What if this happens? What if I can't handle it? What if I, you know, the millions of questions that go through your brain and I'm like, okay, Valen, if you, if you don't do anything, just don't ask them how they're doing. Like that's cause obviously they're doing terrible. Um, And I got to the hospital room. I checked in with the nurse's station and I saw them and they're holding their baby. And I'm just like, how are you doing? It's
SPEAKER_02:because you had like looped on it. So your brain was like,
SPEAKER_01:say, how are you doing? I literally made it happen because that's all I was thinking about. And I, I, I, they looked at each other like, what the fuck? Like what? And I just was like, okay, what I meant was how are you feeling? How is your body feeling after having the baby? How are you processing this? How are you, you know, trying to make it seem like I do kind of know what I'm doing and I'm not a total idiot. Like, you know, But from there on out, it went well and I learned a lot. And then also with this family, I was taken back because they had a, I don't know if he was a pastor or a priest. You'll have to forgive me. I'm not religious. So I do not know. He was, somebody from the church came to like do their prayer and they, They were like, do you want to do it with us? Like, do you want to pray with us and stuff? And I love that. And I totally would have, but instead I was like, you know, I'll video it for you. That way you have this, you know, beautiful moment. But I got to like witness that. And that was so, so cool. But the other thing that I was like, wow, is me and the, I was getting ready to go. And so was the pastor or the priest. And we went out in the hallway and he's like, how'd I do? He's like, I've never been through this before. How did I do? In shock. Cause it was like my first family. Like, obviously I had experienced it as a mom. But like this being my first experience, he thought that I was doing really good. Obviously if he's asking my opinion. So then I, you know, it didn't really think that I messed up the whole day, but yeah. When somebody like that, where who you deem with authority, like, and who, And was just, you know, I was like, wow, I thought you did really great. I thought you were like, he was saying all the right things. Like he was validating them. He was using the baby's name. He wasn't even, even though he was a religious, you know, what's it called? Like a person. Figure. He didn't put that, even though they would have been comfortable because that's their, their religion. Yeah. And, but he
SPEAKER_02:didn't use that kind of like dogmatic, like what we're going to talk about later as one of the mistakes. Exactly. Like, and it was really
SPEAKER_01:cool to see that just the whole, the whole day unfold. And then me feeling like that I was doing really good, obviously after messing up in the beginning and saying like the stupidest thing. And it's not even like the worst thing you can say, because I mean, what else are you going to say besides I'm sorry, there's other things you can say, but it was like not the worst. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I have some questions for you. How did you feel about supporting a loss so soon after having your own stillbirth?
SPEAKER_01:For me, I felt like I needed to do it. When it was me and not having anybody except my doula, we had to navigate that on our own. And I don't know, just, just watching her take care of me and like how, like, I really truly feel I would have just, I don't know. I would just would have died that day, like without her and the way and how fiercely she advocated for me. And so I just wanted to be that for other people. And yeah, I just, I mean, four months before my loss happened, I, had taken my postpartum doula training. And cause that's what I wanted to do after Evelyn was born. And, you know, I was through that postpartum phase. So I really just, it was like kind of, it's, it was set up for me to just do. And it, to me, it's not the worst thing to me. Like, how do I rephrase that? Losing a baby is the worst thing, but, but supporting those people and, Supporting families that lose babies is not, to me, it's like the best thing I could ever do. So I just had a real pull. Like I just wanted to do it like right away just because of the experience that I had and how you could tell who knew what to do and who didn't and like how it affected me and the care that I was getting and how it affected how I was feeling about the whole situation. It's really important. So yeah, I just, for me, it was like what I was meant to do. Sounds so cliche, but yeah, I loved it.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. How many people said, how many people said, how are you doing to you after your own stillbirth?
SPEAKER_01:Not a one. Really? Not like directly in the hospital. A few months after, like I would be asked that, but like in the hospital, no, like they would just come and put their hand on me, you know, on my arm or like, what do you need right now? Or my midwife Gretchen was the fucking best because she's like, give her all the drugs she wants. Like she's been doing this for like 40 years. Like, so she's experienced so many of them. And obviously because the baby had passed, there was no detriment to the baby with all the medication that they were giving me and that I wanted. Yeah. So, you know, she made sure as soon as that like half-life of a medication was gone, I would get more. Like, so she was just so funny about it. And so just like the nurses looking at her, like questioning what she was doing. And she's like, go do it. You heard what she said. Like, she was just, it was amazing compared to the one before, right before shift change that had coerced me into giving birth in a way I didn't want to. So just the experience and having two totally different, midwives I also
SPEAKER_02:said a insane thing actually I have two one of them was just in passing one of my friends I didn't know she was pregnant and I didn't know she had a loss and so well after like a year later she told me and I don't know why it was like the first thing that came out I was like are you kidding me but it was mostly in a way to say like I would have supported you. How did I not know? I saw you like we were still together pretty frequently. And so she was like, no, why would I joke about that? And I was like, she didn't get the, I didn't, but I'm like, it is a weird thing to say. It's the same as saying like, how, how do you, how are you doing? So that as soon as you said that, I was like, oh yeah, I said that to one of my friends like recently, like a couple of years ago, but the first family that, yeah, Their situation, anyway, they had some medical coercion. And so they were forced to be on bed rest past the day where you could terminate in Canada. But they would have terminated. So anyway, the complicated thing is they had to fly down to New York, terminate. Yeah. because it just crossed into the third trimester and then fly home. But they were like, not sure about the viability because their membranes had ruptured, but it was so early. And like, anyway, and they, they chose to not risk all the choices that they made. They didn't want to give birth to this baby live. But I didn't have all this information yet. So they called me, I'd already had a live birth with them two years before and, They called me maybe like two weeks before this all happened saying like, hey, we're pregnant again. We'd like to hire you. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. As we get closer, I'll just like send over stuff. And like, it was really casual. Fast forward like 10 days and they call me and they're like, hey, we're at this hospital. Can you come meet us here? And I was like, oh, that's weird. You know, whatever. We're there. And so I came in and sat on the bed. So they had a lot of this information. I still didn't, which this is there's a lot of there's a lot of pro tips you can learn from this mistake. So I came in, sat on the bed. How are you guys feeling? Because I didn't know why they were in the hospital yet. And I was like, you know, why are we here? And they said, okay, well, she, talking about the baby, and had their hands on the belly. And I was like, oh my gosh, you guys, you're going to have a boy and a girl like this. Like, cut her off. To be like, a million dollar family. I was a very new doula. And then she was like, is... not viable and I was like mmm this is a very different situation and I thought you might be having some like issues with diabetes or like I don't know like that the mom was there for some kind of health thing not that they are about to walk into like the worst fucking week of their lives and it like haunts me this like peppy You're going to have a boy and a girl thing. And then I was like, ugh, later, like, sweats when I thought about it. I also, maybe you can, we'll edit this out if it doesn't work out. Maybe, Valen, you could be my check-in. So they did not want to see the baby. They didn't want to touch the baby. They wanted, they were like, get her on out of this room. And so I checked in a few times to be like, Are you guys sure? Did you want me to take pictures? And then I can like delete them later if you never want them. Do you want to do like, you know, and the nurses kept coming in being like, we could do hand and footprints. Like most people want them later, but, and they were like, no, don't do it. And I felt just really weird about their baby, just like going in a box and not having care. And so I like washed their baby and held her for like, Half an hour secretly. And I've always felt a little bit weird about it. Cause I, but I was like, I just, it feels so wrong to just not have this baby's life honored. Like whatever, whatever her little purpose was right now. She
SPEAKER_01:made
SPEAKER_02:me
SPEAKER_01:love
SPEAKER_02:you
SPEAKER_01:even more. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:really? I always had this, like, did I violate their boundaries for my needs? I've
SPEAKER_01:always wondered about that. I would say no, because I, Imagine if they had changed their mind and the baby didn't get bathed or wasn't dressed, you know, things like that. To me, I would have loved knowing that Evelyn was being held and like loved on. Like if I couldn't, or if I wasn't there, like even when I had to leave the hospital and she was in the bassinet, like I hated it. Like, no, no. I wouldn't know. I think that's beautiful that you did that because I bet you even now they think about it and they wish that they would have done these things. And even if they hadn't, they, they would never be mad at somebody. I don't think for loving on their baby. I mean,
SPEAKER_02:all right. Guys, I've never told this story. Everyone got to hear it in real time. My confession of snuggling their baby. And no surprise, they didn't hire me for their next pregnancy, which makes sense because I bumped into them in Toronto and they had another baby. More babies. And I was like, I felt a little stung at first because I was like, oh, we've had two births together. But then I was like, oh, but your last one was... terrible for you like there was so much trauma and sadness and and I didn't know at the time how common that is that you don't necessarily see like bring back somebody who supported you through a loss again like some people change hospitals they get a different provider they don't have the same doula but at the time I didn't know that so I my feelings were a little bit hurt but now I'm like yeah for sure I can see why you don't want to see me again
SPEAKER_01:yeah and it's it's this is one of those things where um One, yes, that definitely is painful because you're like, you kind of, well, it's not wrong, but we're human. So we're going to think it's us. We're going to think it's our fault or we did something. When in reality, we were unfortunately part of the worst day of their life. And that is how we remind them. Same with like doctors and nurses. For me, I hired the same doula because to me, And this is where you'll see how different people are. Like, we're so different from the way we were raised and the environments we grew up in, the people we're surrounded by. Like, there's a million factors that goes into it. But for me, of course, I had Kendra back because we were like, we're going to have a fucking healthy living baby and it's going to be amazing. And like, it was so cathartic. Like, the whole experience of my rainbow baby. But yeah, that is not always the case. And it can be really heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_02:Well, especially because their whole thing was like, this event never happened. We don't want to see her. We don't want pictures of her. We're going to like block this, this seven months out as like, we don't know where that time went. So I was like, of course, you're not going to want me back. Like I'm part of the, let's never look at that again. So it's really not surprising. And it's not surprising that you loved your doula and wanted to have a rainbow baby with her because she, you know, filled a role that was like, you wanted to pull her in and, and you, you know, honor Evelyn, you talk about Evelyn, like her legacy is, is phenomenal. you know, big and loud and making ripple effects all over the world. And, and your doula was such a significant, profound part of that story and journey for you. And
SPEAKER_01:a big piece too, was like, I felt, I mean, because she had experienced that trauma as well. Like, so for me, it was like, I was able to give her peace of mind in some way, you know, knowing like, I don't know that it just happened and it was terrible and we, we got through it, but there is a better side. And we were able to have our rainbow baby, you know, and you were able to be there to experience the happiness, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Cause at the time she had, she had, I forget how old she was at the time, but she was still breastfeeding. So like, you know, she's like wanting, she's having to leave, but she doesn't want to obviously. Cause I had nobody else. She called one of my neighbors and, to come over and be with me and stuff. But yeah, the experiences are going to be different for every single family that you take care of after loss. Like, yeah, it's, it's a lot of variation. And I think that's a big part of what me and Bianca are trying to express to you is the variation. So don't ever go in expecting it to be a certain way, drop all expectations actually, and just, just be there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. We do have some things not to do. We're going to go through those with you. Dear listeners who we adore, thanks for hanging out with us today again. I think one of the ones that I struggle with... I think because I handle loss in a way that you do Valen, like, I think it's important to talk about it. I think like for me. And so I do struggle where I'm like, Ooh, I know a lot of people don't want to. So one of the first mistakes we wanted to share with everybody is, you know, like not talking about the baby, not using the baby's name, those sorts of things. But I know I watch people around me. Like when I see a Monarch, for example, a butterfly, I'm always like, Oh, it's my dead baby. Like I'm, And I know to some people, they're like, ah, like, that's so weird. And I'm like, that's how I feel when I see a monarch butterfly. Well,
SPEAKER_01:I'm a perfect example for you because we were at a baby shower yesterday. And... You know, not the perfect time to talk about a deceased baby. And my daughters were with me. And my daughter, my oldest, she was five when Evelyn was born. So she was very aware, very excited. And my friend's aunt was like, oh, how many kids do you have? You know, and I'm like, I have two girls and two boys. I'm just trying to keep it light. And Callie's sitting right behind me. She's like, three girls. You have three daughters. I'm like... I forget. Okay. And I'm like, okay, yes, we, I do have a third daughter. She, she died. You're trying to keep it quiet now. And I'm like, I do, but she's. I know. I know. I'm just, I had to have a talk in the car with her later. Like just about. It's not that it was wrong at all. Evelyn is valid everywhere, but because it's a baby shower, we don't want to express death about a baby and the happiness of a baby. So hard to explain to 10 year old guys. But the aunt was like, we lost a baby too. So it was like, damn it. See, and she would, I never would have known that if my daughter hadn't thrown that out there. Like it's so common. It's so common. Like I tell every doula, like if you've, if you've taken care of at least four families, one of them has had at least one loss. If not more, like whether they tell you or not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think we can start normalizing. I'm on a mission all over the place to normalize things. Like after losing my dad to suicide, I was like, let's talk about suicide, everybody all the time. And I think that's the same thing with infant loss that I'm just like, Let's let's talk about this. And so people don't have to suffer in silence. And so one of the things is like, you know, avoiding unless the family has explicitly said, like, I was not going to send a thinking of you text to this family that was like, We're never talking about this again. Like we're going to pretend this never happened. I literally put a black mark across their spreadsheet where I track all my client files and Kelly knew not to contact them again. Like really clearly they had a boundary around that. But if you're not sure... err on the side of reach out you don't necessarily have to use the baby's name or if that feels like you don't know where they're at with that but just like thinking of you or something like that i mean valen this is your area yeah well it doesn't have to be
SPEAKER_01:it can just be thinking of you i know this is a hard week you know here's a starbucks card you go get yourself a coffee or I mean, the thinking of you card is fine. Not having to mention the baby, just mentioning, we know that you might be struggling right now. I feel like that's the best bet. And yes. Yeah. If you have a, an experience like Bianca, where they were explicitly, no, no, never again, read the room and obviously do everything accordingly. You know? So some of the things we tell you to do for families, these families will not be included in,
SPEAKER_00:Like,
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Cause we send cards and stuff on like first birthdays, regardless of outcome. Yeah. And sometimes it's different. Like my best friend had a stillbirth and she can like kind of talk about it sometimes, but very kind of like, yeah, that happened and everybody needs to get over it. But yeah, you cannot even mention it happening around her husband like it's just a no-go like you have to pretend it didn't happen so like I have to be really strategic when I think about um think about those things it was also so weird I didn't put it together it was my dad's birthday that this this stillbirth happened which I supported like and this year she was like oh it's a heavy day for both of us and I was like what are you talking about and I never I I don't know. I just got into my own grief cycle, which mine happened after hers. So it like wiped the day in my mind for hers and became mine until this year. And I was like, oh, put that back in the calendar, Bianca. You have some care to do there for your best friend. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. That's a mistake that we want to start with. It's like, don't avoid talking about it. Don't, you know, if they did name their baby, use it when you're referencing them.
SPEAKER_01:Boundaries are going to be super important for the family to set and for us to set as doulas. Making things clear as possible. What did you say? Clear as kind? Yes, clear as kind, y'all. In this case, it is extremely... extremely respectful and kind to be clear about how you can support them and what your job duties are and also helping them learn how to set boundaries. But in this case, since we're talking about mistakes we make, we'll talk about, so say they went home, they're, you know, it's the first or second week and they're working with the funeral home and they're kind of, you know, having to make all these big decisions and like, You just show up. Don't do that. Don't do that anytime. Anytime, please. I'm a mom of four. And if anybody shows up, I'm like, this is really inconvenient. I won't tell you that to your face, but it's inconvenient. But if they're like, this is where you communicate. Like if you are going to visit them or if you're going to go see them or bring them something, And I guess this will go into two of the mistakes and setting those boundaries or I'm sorry, not overstepping boundaries. Sending a text. Hey, I would love to bring you a meal. I would love to bring you a drink. I would love to drop off this gift or card that I got. Is it okay if I stop by and put it on your porch? Like being a hundred percent transparent, open about this. And if they say no, accept it. But yeah, not just showing up not overwhelming them with questions like you know or texting them repeatedly or excessively if they're not talking to you back um a lot of the families that i support won't text me back for weeks and it's not because they purposely do it it's because they're going through something extremely emotionally um and they don't have the capacity to send a yeah yeah, I could use some help with this or I need this. Like, no, they don't have it in them. And that also goes into the failing. I'll just bring it into the failing to offer specific support. This is where we support our families into like, instead of saying, how can I help you? Like, what do you need? Those are like, no, that's not how you talk to families. Okay, you need to say, okay, if they have other kids? Do you need me to, like, if it's a grandparent, I can pick up the kids this week from school. I can bring them to soccer practice. I can come walk the dog every day for you. You know, or is this a good, is this something that would be helpful for you if I take your, you know, your comforters to the dry cleaners? Like, There's so many things. And one thing that you can do that's really helpful if you're supporting them in the postpartum through loss, even with my postpartum clients with happy outcomes and living babies, we put a notebook on the counter. Some families and some people find it very hard to ask for help. So when I'm not there, they can write down all their questions. They can write down things they need help with before I come. And I just go to the notebook. I don't even ask them what they need. I can say hi, obviously check in, see how like the postpartum healing is coming. And then I just kind of get to work on the notebook. Like sometimes that requires me like reaching out to their parents or, you know, whatever, helping them navigate all that logistical crap, ordering groceries, like, so making sure to be specific in your help. Don't just blanket statement so that you feel good enough that you did offer, but they don't take you up on it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And one of the things you can do is also come up with these, these lists and like, like balance notebook there. You could also have a like post-its on the, on their counter that is like meals for dinners, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, walking the dog, these, and like, almost like the reverse meal chain that people can just grab them cleaning the bathrooms and somebody pulls that post-it and they go and clean the bathroom so that when people are coming into the home like their friends and family that are allowed to not just drop things off on the porch they don't have to ask the family either um and as doulas we can come up with an easy at least 10 post-its every time we came to put down for people like cleaning out the litter box, like just, you know, those kinds of things that we know will need help. But that family has decision fatigue because they're, you know, they can't. I had a question for you, Valen, about the text, like not texting too much. do you find it helpful or would you recommend rather than asking a question, but just like sending, like, I'm thinking of you, um, those kinds of texts, even if they're not answering you back, not like every day, but I don't know, once a week, if you haven't heard from them, just be like, my thoughts are with you. Um, you know, I'm, I'm here if you need me kind of things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Especially, um, So I feel like the first week I'll text like two or three times seeing what, you know, what type of support they need, if they need it, if they need help finding resources. And then, yeah, just telling them, I'm thinking about you. Like, I know how hard this week is. I know that all the decisions that you're having to make right now is just the worst. Yeah. And then every week I feel like is great. The first month. I mean, if you get the sense that, they just don't want to talk to you or like they never text you back or whatever it is, you know, once a month after that, maybe for a couple of months, but it's, it's one of those things that's very individual to the family that you're serving. You really have to listen to your gut when it, when it's, I feel like we know, like as doulas, we already know how to quietly support and, So just really tuning in and listening to what feels good. And especially if they've prenatally taken care of these clients, they, they kind of know them. They know how they, they interact and they know how they answer their phone or like, don't like, they know these things and just kind of drawing from that. That's a good point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I also really like, anytime I've had a tough time in my life, like, I don't know, going through a divorce, my dad dying, those kinds of things, those sorts of things. I always really appreciated when people added the caveat. I don't expect you to text me back like explicitly. Cause even still when I'd be like, Oh man, I, you know, It was hard to just really take in the love because I kept thinking like, fuck, now this is another thing I have to do. It's right back to all these people. And so I couldn't really take it in. Any time somebody says, hey, I'm just thinking about you. don't worry, you don't have to text me back. I feel so calm and I can like just feel the love from it. I'm also super introvert. So even at the best of times when texts come up, I'm like, ah, I know you're my friends, but I wish you didn't text me. So I think that's a helpful, like being that kind of clear with the expectations of it. Okay. I know we touched on these next mistakes. We've got the two, two, but I want to circle back and just like really clearly highlight around some of these kind of like trite platitudes that people use. And I know we kind of indicated one with religion, but let's just start like not the religious stuff, but you know, I think this is so common because we don't know what to do around loss. We're so death averse. We're so lost. Like we essentially are like, just don't look at it and try to like distract people through things. Um, but let's talk about just like the statements we just need to eradicate when we're talking about death.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay. I'd like to say, uh, our culture has cut itself off so far from death. It's insane. And birth and death are like one of the same. And what I mean is like, there's a veil in between them. It's magical. Like all this shit, like life is magical. And like crossing over that veil from not being to being in a physical body, like all this stuff, like, we have to get back to that and understand that death is hard and terrible and all these things, but it's also a beautiful time to like, just realize how amazing it is being a human.
SPEAKER_02:And like, yeah, well, it's another transition. It's
SPEAKER_01:a life cycle transition. And like a lot of the platitudes that we hear. Okay. So like, she's not suffering now. Or they're in a
SPEAKER_03:better
SPEAKER_01:place. You're in a, she's in a better place. She's with God. She's with Jesus. She's with relatives. She is, you know, maybe if she had some sort of genetic anomalies or something, maybe she's not in pain anymore. She's not suffering or, you know, you're still young enough to have other children. Yeah. I love
SPEAKER_02:the least, you know, you can have, you can get pregnant.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:At least you can start trying in a few months. Like you can have other babies.
SPEAKER_01:As if pregnancy isn't hard enough. And most like, I don't know. I, I suffered through pregnancies. Like I did not enjoy pregnancies except for. And then. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:really?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. It was the most perfect pregnancy, which is something that pissed me off. I'm so mad. But like, yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like now as I'm like five years out from the loss, I, I used to hate the whole silver linings thing, like finding those things to make it better. There's no reason that babies die. There are some, like, I want to say early miscarriage and stuff where your body knows something's wrong and it kind of does its thing and that doesn't make it feel better. It doesn't take away that these were our babies are very loved babies and But there's a reason your body did that in the beginning because it was 80 or 90% of like early miscarriages are because of the genetic anomalies that happen. But your body knows, which is wild. Like we have a perfect operating system here. And those silver linings though, like I literally wanted to slap anybody who came at me with them. And now though, I feel I see them more and more. So even though none of those things should ever be said to people, I find the farther out I am from my loss, the more I can see where they were coming from. And a lot of the things that people say, like you already said is because they're uncomfortable. They have to fill that silence with something. They have to, they, they want to make you feel better. And most of the time, like if they're saying this, they've never been through it. So they think that their words can, you know, lift your spirit or take away the pain. And it's just not the case. And I feel like it just comes from a really uneducated culture of where we've tried to separate ourselves from death. So, you know, and it's like if this we were kind of talking about this before, if it was a full grown adult, we go through all the pomp and circumstance. We go through all the wakes and funerals and celebrations. How come this isn't the same for our babies?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, I think generally we're just, we struggle with feelings we've deemed as bad, which are like sadness, anger, loss, grief, and try to keep us in the feelings that we think are good, which are like happy, excited, passionate. And so I think in general, like I know even sometimes when I share like, oh, I had a crappy week, fill in the blank. Most of my friends would do the like, well, at least like it's over now. Or like, but you had that party and you said that was fun. And I I'm like, two things can be true. I can have a bad week and enjoy that. And I know when my dad died, nobody talks about my dead baby like at all. And I was like so shocked at how people like just wanted, you know, exactly what we're talking about. Those kind of silver linings make you feel better. But I now know that. that the silver linings, as do you, they're always there when we have the opportunity to feel all of our feelings move through. And there's like beautiful gifts on the other side, but you can't, you have, it's like, the process that is what gives you those gifts. Right. And so you can't rush those things. And now I've gotten to the point when bad shit happens to me, I'm like, Oh, hot damn. I can't wait to see the gifts I'm going to get from this. And then I'm like, no, no, no. The gifts come when you feel your feelings because like, I mean, I know my dad was a full grown human, but like, you know, suicide fucks you up. It's like a really crazy cause of death, but like it is, Probably Gray's birth and that are like the two things I'm the most grateful for. And I hated being a mom and I hated losing my dad to suicide. And so, but they was because of the struggle and what I grew and what I learned and my heart breaking open and like all of these things, it, it created Bebo Mia, it created so much healing work it did. It created, you know, healing work for me, boundaries work, like all of this stuff that I'm so grateful for that I wouldn't trade. loss of my dad and you know now watching you with Evelyn's legacy um like you wouldn't have any of those things without those loss but you can't talk you can't focus on that in the first weeks months even years because you don't know what those silver linings are there's no silver lining in that moment none and yet at all people like focus on those things. Like, well, you know, you did say it was a bad time for you guys to have a baby or like you are in the middle of moving. Like, so you're welcome. The universe heard you. Or it
SPEAKER_01:wasn't meant to be like, Oh my God. And those things are for them. That's not even for us when they're saying them, like they, they have to fill their brain back with like these happy little things because a dead baby is is pretty awful. And again, what I said, literally, it's like a bird flying into a window. It's just like, nobody knows what to do or say. And it literally, when I said like our brain, our brain makes things up. So if you've never experienced it and you've never seen a dead baby, your brain is going to make it horrific. It's going to make it this terrible, gross thing. scary thing. So that's what most people who haven't experienced it and say these shitty things see in their brain. They don't know. The unknown is the worst. It is the worst. And when you were kind of talking about the family that you took care of and was like, I don't want to see him or her ever, ever, ever again. Not at all. Never. Something you can do in that moment as well is ask them if you would like if they would like you to describe the baby to them, like how beautiful they are, like their sweet little face. And to think a lot of families will Google, right? 20 week old baby dies, images, Google. And there's so many things that may not even be right or true at all. Yeah. That's just another way we can try to get them to, realize that it's most of the time, it's better than what we're thinking. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:I was so nervous. So I reached out, this was like the internet was like newish when I started practicing. So I mean, yeah, like it wasn't what it is now. So I had to do phone, phone experience doulas and be like, okay, so I'm going in because my clients flew to New York, terminated, then had to fly back to Toronto. And so I knew I had like, Eight hours. And so I was like, I'm going to utilize that eight hours. And I was shocked that three people said the same thing. They were like, don't open the baby's eyes. The parents sometimes want to see what color the eyes are. But like, that could be... not what they're expecting, especially if there's not, it's not developed. It's going to maybe just be a socket, like all those things. I was so fucking scared about the eyes, but at the same time, like really wanted to open the eyelids up. Like Nana became obsessed with it. I did not open the eyelids because I already thought I was violating the parents by washing and dressing and rocking their baby and like humming to her in the bathroom alone. Um, but I was like, that's the only thing you guys all have to tell me. You experienced doulas. Like you offered nothing else except sometimes parents really want to know the, their, the whatever color eyes don't let them open the eyelids. And I was like,
SPEAKER_01:that's not even a proper indication because baby eye color changes
SPEAKER_02:all of those things. But I was like, That feels like not a useful piece of advice when like a baby doula is like, so what do I do here for this loss? And didn't scaffold me with the things that we need to know, which is on one of our mistakes, things like the parents are going to have to have a plan for their baby's body, which nobody told me that. They just said, don't open the eyes. So then I wasn't prepared to prepare my clients.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:To say, like, we should probably call the synagogue. And I didn't know any of these things. And so that's one of the mistakes, y'all. It's like, please make sure you know what's going to happen. Like, what the next steps are after. Do they need to call people? Are there fees associated? You know, do they have somebody that comes to take photos? Do they have the cots? Like, all of these things. moving parts that you don't know what you don't know, obviously. And I didn't know a lot. And these experienced doulas did not do me a solid there on what they did pass on.
SPEAKER_01:Nothing. I've never, you know, I had that urge to with Evelyn, right? Because her eyes were closed, obviously. But I was like, nope, can't do it. Can't do it. Like, I just couldn't physically bring myself to do that. I was scared. Right. But yeah, this is why this is so important. This is why I teach and train doulas in doing this stuff because you need to know what to ask. You need to know the questions that you need to, like, you need to know this stuff because if the hospital is a shitty hospital and they don't have like a palliative care director or a perinatal bereavement program, most of the time these nurses are winging it and doing the best that they can. Um, And I just, like I was telling Bianca, like I just got a call on Friday saying like, oh, you know, this hospital told this mom that she needs to get her baby within this 24 hour timeframe. And she has to come up with this money because the funeral parlor won't pick them up. Like what? Like, is this our, this is our real fucking society here. Like this is USA over here. Yeah. Like the best country in the world. And we can't even properly take care of a dead baby or support a family. Like it's crazy. It's so mind blowing.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, all everything to do with loss that we do in our society is, I mean, Canada is not much better. I mean, now we're significantly better than America, but you know, it's still pretty shit around all of it. Yeah. So, I mean, we have gone through a lot of these what not to do. We're going to put them in a nice little PDF for you so that you can download that. And we'll post that under the episode. Because there's so many things that we don't want you to do, Valin and I... together, have put together a like, what do you do? And so we have, we were calling it the 911 kit because you're going to have, these are urgent situations when your client calls you and says they can't find a heartbeat. You know, they're having a miscarriage. And sometimes we don't know that we're going to be dealing with a loss situation because, you know, like the story you were just telling that it happened recently. While they were in labor that they their baby died. So we want you to be ready with what you should do. So we've done a step by step kit of like, here's what you need to do. Here's the next thing. Here's the next thing. And we take you from minute one. all the way to past the first year. And we've got the urgent section for you. So if you are finding yourself in a loss situation, you just like jump to that urgent section and go through it. And then when you have time, go through all the other parts of the kit that we've made you. And Valin, oh man, you are so good at this. It's just like all this beautiful content of supporting kids families through their losses. And I'm just so happy that we got to collaborate on this project together because you're so good. It's been so fun.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's the worst topic. It's, it sucks. Like, but yes, I love it. I'm, I'm very good at it. I'll just toot my own horn. I just, it came naturally to me after Evelyn died. Like I was just like, okay, it's just like unlocked something in me that I've always been a caretaker though. Like Do you do you follow human design? Do you like love? Yeah. Yeah, I'm a manifesting generator. So like my whole life revolves around creating and supporting and helping others and like following my gut, like trusting myself. And so that's what we've done. Like, we took a really beautiful, like, I don't know. We just created a really, really, really beautiful support packet and it's perfect. Um, because a lot of us don't have time necessarily to take another training. So this is like a really, I would say very detailed, very layered, you know, in depth, um, I don't know, shortcut, like that way you get, It gives you that urgent, that urgent piece. Bianca was telling you, like if you're immediately going through this loss and then once you're out of that, you can go through the rest where we walk you through the other stuff that is all part of it. And especially taking care of yourself. We want to make sure that you are, that was one of the other mistakes is like forgetting about you, forgetting about realizing that you've gone through this with them. And it is going to affect you. I think doulas are really good at like, doing what they need to do in the moment, not, you know, really feeling it or taking it in themselves right away and just throwing themselves into supporting our families. But when you get home and it's all over you, it's everywhere and you don't know how it's actually going to affect you within the next few weeks and months. Yeah. So we have, it's everything. We teach you how to take care of yourself. Yeah, it's amazing. That's a
SPEAKER_02:really, really good kit. And we just we so recommend that all doulas have this kit in their hands, like consider it your insurance policy, because you might not be specifically doing intentional loss work. But, you know, these things happen. And both Fallon and I had stories where we did not intend to be supporting a loss and we ended up in that position. So, you know, this kit is key, like just having it ready. And then if folks are interested in having a bereavement business specifically, Valen has a certification for that. So you can go over and if you're like, I would like to build my business around supporting lost families, that's a separate thing. And I highly recommend go get your certification with Valen and, you know, build these bereavement businesses because we definitely need more people more folks supporting loss. And for anybody else, if you're doing fertility doula work, you're doing birth doula work, you're doing postpartum doula work, and you did not intend to support loss, this is where the kit is going to come in. And it's kind of your like 911 crisis package. And we hope you never have to use it. Our dream is that you never, ever need to. And we've kept it wildly affordable. Yeah. So that it can be a tool that you have alongside your TENS machine or alongside your pelvis or like all the other things, your knitted knocker and your loss kit that's ready for you. Yeah. Yeah. I liked collaborating with you, Valen. You're a good time. I know. We'll have to do it again. Hopefully
SPEAKER_01:a happier subject, but yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:so everybody our dear listeners thanks for going on this journey with us we will have the um post together so you can see the mistakes not to make we're gonna have that link there for that kit highly recommend you grab yours um it's under fifty dollars and have that in your you know your your packages that you're ready because we have really great materials you can leave with families, so that they have that care, all of these PDFs, you could share them with with your clients, your lost clients, there's checklists, there's scripts, there's swipe copy, like we wanted to make it really easy for you. I
SPEAKER_01:was
SPEAKER_02:gonna say,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, the scripts, I think are the best part. Because that's the that's the hardest thing like that. If you if you really think about this podcast is like knowing what to say, knowing how to convey that, what words to use, like, We give you literally all the words that you possibly could need to support them, to text them, to call them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's everything you need. We made it real, real simple. And then tons of resources for families, book lists for you, self-care scripts, journaling prompts. Man, this is a great kit. I know.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I'm so excited about it.
SPEAKER_02:um and it's brand new this week so you can grab yours um we've got amazing feedback from all the wonderful doulas um thank you to our testers who went through and gave us such great feedback we couldn't do that without um really great community support for this kit and this project um so hat tip to all of you uh again all of the information for it will be in your show notes valen thanks so much for hanging out on the hot and brave podcast it was really great to have you Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. All right, everyone. We'll see you in the next episode.
SPEAKER_00:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash VIB to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash VIB to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast. podcast.
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