Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S5 E01 - Parenting, Mental Health & the Thief of Joy: A No-BS Chat with Nikki Steel Osborne
We are talking all about mental health and talking about it in a way that is not happening in other places. This will shake you up and give you ideas to find joy.
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You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_01:Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and Brave podcast. We are back with season five. I still can't believe we've done four seasons and we're into our fourth year here. So we are at the pre-semester, I don't know, I guess pre-semester sprint, the behind the scenes. We're getting ready for our MSP, which is our full spectrum doula training. And we have so many new additions to the course. I've been chatting and planning and getting everything ready and i'm really excited there's new faces there's new lectures and there's way more fun um there's still room in the program and we have payment plans so that you can grab your seat with ease um if you use the code shirt like like t-shirt but just shirt s-h-i-r-t um you get a huge discount and a free doula t-shirt okay um so i mean I could catch up. There's a lot to catch up because we've had a couple of months since our last episode, but I'll like pepper it in only because this episode interview is a little bit longer. So I'll try to kind of catch you up on what's happening with life and Babel Mia and stuff over the next few episodes. But I have been on bereavement leave for the last several weeks after losing my younger brother, Elliot. I shared a bit about this in my newsletter and I've gotten lots of love and I'm really grateful to you all. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to Kelly. I'm giving like a special shout out to Kelly because she's been juggling so much with Babelmia. And then, you know, all my friends behind the scenes who check in with me regularly. I'm really grateful. And to people who have come and helped me at home here and, you know, all of that. Also, Kessia, who's our incredible peer mentor, she checks in on me every couple days with these lovely voice memos. And I just... Oh man, I'm really just oozing with gratitude because it's been really hard and I've been really struggling. It's like struggling so much. Again, I don't want to get into it in the podcast, but you can check that out in the newsletter. But cycle breaking is hard and, you know, Cole's notes being uninvited to my brother's funeral. due to my no contact with my mom. And grief hit my body so hard, like in the heaviest of ways, like literal pain, disc injury, like stuff that has never happened to me before immediately happened, which was disappointing because I have a competition for my powerlifting and I can barely walk, let alone lift, which sucks. So it's been really wild. And I just keep being like, all right, grief, I see you. So with this dip and, you know, mental health from, you know, my brother's death, I've been really quiet and still. And I've actually been creating art, like lots and lots and lots of it. I go into my sewing and my crafting room and just I'm there as quiet. much as I've had. Everything I do, I'm like, after you can go back and make more art. And I found it really healing and really helpful. So I thought talking about mental health would be a good season opener. But I wanted a lightness to the talk because I can't really do heavy topic, heavy discussion style. So I reached out across the ocean to Nikki Steele Osborne, And man, she's amazing. You'll all love her Scottish accent. She married an American, so she knows she's got kind of the best of all worlds, I suppose. She also has a son, which was a significant jumping off you know, her catalyst or jumping off point for why she's doing the work that she's doing. But she's a coach, a speaker, course creator. And, you know, she shares this roller coaster of highs and lows. She's lived all over the world, which is amazing. bonkers. And she talks about, you know, all these kind of like relocations and the culture that she's lived within. She talks a lot about her own postpartum depression journey. We talked about running our own businesses. Yeah, so much. She's, she's just incredible. I'm so grateful that she took the time to hang out with us and, and give us some, you know, some context as well as what we can do, what we can do as practitioners to support our clients and what we can do as parents. Oh, I do want to put in a little warning. If you have little ears around, maybe pop in some headphones as we cuss like a lot in this episode. Also check out the show notes for ways to connect with Nikki. She is a gem. She has a really incredible digital resource called Stepping Into Parenthood. Which, you know, really all you need is internet access to get your hands on that. It's a must have. So without further ado, here is our talk from last week. Hi Nikki, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to meet you face
SPEAKER_03:to
SPEAKER_01:face now. Yes. Um... So we're going to cover a few different areas, like really talking about mental health. But you know, there's, there's a lot of like branches that intersect that mental health conversation. But let's first start with, you know, why did you get into this work?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so I think my training to becoming a coach was that I was a hairdresser and people would put their bum in that seat and you would just, it would all come out. So I think that was my training. But I really started this after having my son in 2017 and I had experienced postpartum depression and anxiety. That wasn't my first rodeo. Like a lot of people, I'd had episodes throughout my adult life of feelings of depression and anxiety, took medication, didn't change anything else, you know, and expected wonderful things to happen.
SPEAKER_01:The magic pill.
SPEAKER_03:Right? But really, I mean, I honestly believe that the answer to what was missing for me was that I wasn't a mum yet. So when I got pregnant, I was 40 when I got pregnant, and I was like... We're winning people, this is it. So I actually didn't anticipate feeling like I did for those first 18 months. And when I finally got some support and I started to turn that corner, I just felt that it had to be for something, you know, for me to walk away from it and go back to here just didn't click anymore. like if I've felt these things and I've experienced it and I'm quite a big character you know I'm not scared to open my mouth right and when we use that narrative just reach out and I'm like it's bullshit because you don't you know it's not as simple as that so I decided that I want you to do something with it so I retrained um and now I'm coaching and speaking and i have a digital resource for people who can't just reach out who don't want to talk i wanted to have something that they could you know dig into with that bit of peace and quiet and not feeling exposed or whatever the reasons are you know that they're not in that space yet they don't want to talk about it i want you to give them something as well so i created a digital good old technology helps me out there It doesn't happen very often.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, seriously. So there's an area that I realized I never really talked about with any of the guests when we talk about mental health is I'd love if you feel comfortable, obviously, like to comfort. I'd love to talk about that experience of like you having a baby and just everybody listening anxiety and depression can show up in your pregnancy too. So we're going to just talk about perinatal mood disorders, which is the whole gamut, as well as when we're going through that trying to conceive journey. So like the whole time our reproductive journey, it can rear its very uncomfortable head. But let's talk about the point from you having your son to Getting your diagnosis. And what was it like? How were people interacting with you? How did you feel? Who actually flagged that it could be depression or anxiety? Because that's actually, I think, where the meat of the conversation should happen. Because I know I had undiagnosed for two years. And I kept thinking, fuck you guys. I had a big community. How did nobody flag depression?
SPEAKER_03:that
SPEAKER_01:I could have been and like the flags weren't little white or pink they were like red like like I asked multiple people where, what do I do when I can't parent anymore? Like where do people give away their children? Like who can take this baby? Like that is a giant red flag. And so I would love to hear your perspective. And then some of the people you're talking to, because I feel like it's really up to the community around them, whether they're partnered, their siblings, their friends, their neighbors, um, Anyway, that was a long intro to give you the question, but take it away. No, but
SPEAKER_03:it's really interesting because I think my breaking point, or the pivotal point when it was like, okay, something has to happen here, was me completely losing my shit with my husband. I think I knew. Now looking back, and if I was being really honest with myself, I knew that something wasn't right. But I was so... fucking determined to get past it, that I wasn't acknowledging it. So by not acknowledging it to myself, I wasn't really acknowledging it to others. Now, the other part of this is that we at that time lived in Montenegro. So I went back to Scotland to deliver my son. Then, you know, so it was tough in the beginning, but the thinking was once I get back in my own house, in my own environment, it'll settle down, it'll be okay. And it wasn't. But it wasn't linear, it wasn't consistent. It is very much as a roller coaster. So you have the times where you're like, okay, we're good, we're doing okay. And then that dark cloud would kick in again. And I do think that a lot of mental health, whether it's maternal mental health, there's a lot of similarities in how these things present. But I think maternal mental health can be especially tricky because this is when you're supposed to be happy. You've just had this new child. And I did. I had all those things. And of course, I was going on Dr. Google, which is always a brilliant idea. Terrifying the shit out of yourself. Dr. Google. And a lot of what I kept seeing was this postpartum depression or anxiety disorder. you perhaps don't connect with your baby or you don't feel you're bonding with your baby and I was like well I don't have that then because that wasn't how I felt now I can verbalize it but what was happening was that I had such an overwhelming love for this little boy that I was absolutely terrified I was going to fuck her
SPEAKER_04:yeah
SPEAKER_03:wasn't about the baby it wasn't about him it was about me So, you know, when I would talk to my mum or my friends like this on Zoom, I was very much masking how bad it was. Or maybe it was just a good day when I spoke to them, so they weren't always catching those red flags. But for my husband, that night in the kitchen, I remember screaming at him and saying, if this was you, I would have dragged you to the doctor fucking ages ago.
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03:because, you know, but it's because you're looking for almost like a blame thing as well. And, you know, I just needed to feel better. And he was the closest person to me. And I think he just didn't know what to do. You know, I think he, and he was seeing the good parts too. So when I would say, do you think I need help? He'd be like, no, you've been better. You're doing okay. You know? So, not dismissing it not because he didn't want me to get help but I don't think he really did see it and because what goes on in our minds doesn't always come out of our mouths right what goes on in our minds can be terrifying and if we're not really in that somehow communicating that then people don't always know and that's why it's so terrifying you know and that's why we need to normalize talking about it so I am always appreciative of people like yourself that are using your platform and going can we have this conversation You know, it's not about scaremongering. It's not about sugarcoating. It's just saying, look, these are the realities. And how can we support people to just navigate and come through it? You know, hopefully unscathed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say the realities because. Some of the things that I would love to tear down is what we have normalized about new parents and motherhood. And so I really like talking about the relationship of motherhood and the work of motherhood. And we never really get to do the relationship where we're just like staring at our baby and we've had like a lovely day bonding with our baby because we're just bogged down in the work part. And because we're in that, I feel like so much... precarious mental health has been normalized as just deep exhaustion this is just being a new parent and um because we expect the work of motherhood to continue no matter what without a division of labor you know among the among the sexes and um you know we've just the roles have been like locked in as such a permanent thing so i mean i'd be curious to hear your thoughts around um You used the thief of joy in one of your blogs when I was reading about your work, which I love. I mean, it's obviously the Roosevelt quote talking about comparison. But I use thief of joy like all over Babelmia. And there's, I feel like a lot of areas, thieves of joy in new parenthood, which is kind of like masking precarious mental health. And I wanted to hear your thoughts about that.
SPEAKER_03:And it goes both ways. You know, when I talk about those comparisons, I feel like social media and, you know, where we are in this digital age is like a double-edged sword. We have resources at our fingertips now. We have information. We have statistics. We have all of that stuff there. Unfortunately, what we're most influenced by are social media platforms. Yeah. And when I talk about comparison, I don't just mean the ones where you see the wholesome parent, you know, they're in matching outfits and they're cooking from scratch and all that, you know, everything's pristine around the house. And that is one aspect that can be daunting for some people. I think there's the other side of it as well, which I actually find really dangerous. And these are the accounts that, where people are, and maybe this is just my perspective, I feel like I'm quite good at reading between the lines. And when I look at these accounts, I'm a business. I know that they're businesses too. And when I'm seeing things where it's a very obviously staged crying session into their phone to then post and talk about how hard parenting is, There are ones where I'm like, that's genuine. They're talking, they get emotional and it's a gradual and you go, okay, they've got upset and they're sharing that so that we can, you know, all engage with each other. But some are doing it for clicks. Some are doing it because when you pick up on people's pain points and try and buy into that fear and that pain point, that's a business strategy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's gross. Don't get me started. And it pisses
SPEAKER_03:me off. Don't get me started, Nikki. Okay, well, I'm glad that you're the same because... You know, I've had, I remember one time talking about this. I think we're quite similar. We're quite opinionated and we've got shit to say and we're going to say it. And the people that love us will take to that. And the ones that don't, well, they're not going to anyway. We're not here to win people, right? But I remember talking about some of these things. And one of the things that I also spoke about was the mummy wine culture. oh you're just lighting up my elevator Nikki anything else anything
SPEAKER_01:else you want to talk
SPEAKER_03:about because you just you know that promote and getting the the way now you know after a day of pain and I'm like are you fucking serious it's like the worst thing you can do now this isn't and I was told I was judging and I'm not judging if you are someone you know one of my best friends in the world Absolute party animal, always has been, always will be. She's got two kids. She's never dropped a ball. She's always the last at the party. But you know what? She's happy. She doesn't have any mental health challenges. She's not up against anything. So I'm not judging. If you can cope, crack on. But for some of us, myself included, I stopped drinking two years ago because I had to call myself out on my own bullshit. It wasn't sustainable. It made me feel bad. I would get violently sick I was rubbish at it anyway I wasn't a good drinker but most importantly was that I wanted my clarity and my energy for my son you know I wanted to feel well and I knew that I was contributing to my own mental health challenges so you know when I'm poking up but sometimes we just have to be really honest about some of these things so when they're promoting that you know oh don't be judgy just let them have a glass of wine if you're all right then fine but if that's actually contributing to the space you're in please don't you know
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_03:well
SPEAKER_01:and I don't think it's judging like what I speak out against alcohol all the time um alcohol culture which I know some of my friends like oh is it okay if I drink and I'm like you can drink around me I choose to have no alcohol in my life um I haven't for almost a decade and um it's, we can speak out against mommy wine culture because that's a fucked up culture. That's like the wine o'clock somewhere. This is mommy's happy juice, like all of these things. And it would be fine if moms were thriving, but the rate of mental health, mental health issues is staggering. Death by suicide is the leading cause of death for new moms. So like, as long as these statistics are there, then alcohol is not serving us as a depressant. you know we need love we need care we need safety we need sleep we need you know to be out of food deserts we need you know all of these things we need better health care for those accessing traditional you know channels for that like we need therapy there's so many things we need and it is not alcohol
SPEAKER_03:right that's another thing when you said there about like health care that's something else that I wish would marry more because I feel that there's also you know the medical and clinical field are very quick to shut down people like myself because I'm just a coach and we don't know anything and then you've got the holistic side where I feel they can also do that where they go it's just big pharma they just want your money and I'm like look guys could we all sit together and have a chat because actually I feel like the holistic side we are filling a cavernous gap between the people that need support and the healthcare systems because wherever you are the healthcare systems are struggling you know and that is why we unfortunately are still seeing so many suicides you know in the UK the statistic for postpartum depression is like one in five it's not it's way more than that because there are so many people who are like we said earlier, it goes undiagnosed or, you know, they're not getting that help and support for it. So that's another, you know, the healthcare system and people like myself. And yes, I know that in any industry, there are charlatans, there are people that are just there to make a quick buck. But there's also some of us out here that are fighting for something that's really, really important. You know, I could go back to you, Jess, in a minute, make a fortune if that's what I want you to do. but that's not where I am, you know, because I feel like this is a space that really needs people like you and I that are going to open our mouths and shout it a wee bit louder for them up the back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I also want to hold space and just, I always, when we have these conversations, want to highlight the fear of reporting mental health concerns with equity-seeking folks because they're already so highly policed with their parenting. There's also a barrier for people in custody groups custody battles or going through the court system that also don't disclose mental health crises. I know this from lived experience as well as having these conversations for almost 20 years now. And so there's groups that actually cannot put on their paperwork. And I know at around year two with my GP, when he wanted to have that conversation with me, I literally said, you cannot document that I'm talking about my mental health right now because I knew you know i was in a 12-year custody battle um spoiler alert
SPEAKER_03:and like you say to have that deterrent because of that fear and that's why we do need to have access for people where they do feel it's a safe space they can still get the support without it being a statistic
SPEAKER_01:right yeah Yeah, so I think you're right that that number is the one in five. It's just, it's not possible, especially now that the new statistics, like the latest wave of research post COVID. Oh man, I wanted to have that at my fingertips. I don't. I'm listening to a really great new book about anxiety. It just came out last month. And yeah. It's something in the US, like, I don't know, I'm going to throw it out. Somebody fact check this for me, but something like 84% of teens are reporting anxiety and depression. So it's not possible that we have our youth having this experience and not having that similar statistic reflected through the next wave of, you know, child rearing folks, especially because the risk of running into anxiety or depression is environmental, it's hormonal, it's genetic, like we've got a lot of you know a lot of there's more entry points and risk for folks in their reproductive journeys so you know which would blow that one in five statistic out of the water
SPEAKER_03:and I do you know the other side of that I guess the silver lining is that I do I really believe that we are the kind of generation that will hopefully help this state that we're in In the sense that cultural, you know, when we look at generational, you know, I feel like we're that middle generation because our grandparents and some of our parents, you know, they did it without the internet, right? And now we've got it. And our children, you know, my son's seven, so it's always been there. Like, trying to tell him what it was like when we were young and when it first came out is, you feel like a dinosaur. But what I mean is that we are almost in a state of fear as well for our children because of this. But I feel like we're the ones that can actually pave the way, you know, and... we're having more conversations about mental health. You know, we're having more conversations about the roles that we all play within a family. And, you know, that, especially for the guys, I'm seeing more and more things come up for men where they can go and talk about their mental health. And, you know, but I mean, my father's generation was, talk about stuff like that. I feel like we're getting there. We're not there yet, but we're getting there in a lot of regards. So yeah, we need people to keep fighting that fight.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You've lived all over the world with your family. Well, like that side of the world. But your husband's from my side of the world. Yeah, he's from Buffalo, New York.
SPEAKER_03:We met in Jakarta. We met in Indonesia.
SPEAKER_01:That's wild. That's wild. So... I mean, you've been around parents in different cultures. What are some of the, like, are you noticing the same, I mean, it's obviously gonna land as the same bullshit, but like the moving parts around the conversation of families and mental health, you know, what are some of the comparisons from, you know, Southeast Asia, the MENA region, Western Europe?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you know, when I was in Indonesia, I was drunk most of the time. That was in my pre days. Me too. I had a business there. I had a salon. So I was working, you know, the Indonesians though, you know, they are very family orientated where they still tend to live together, you know, the grandparents, parents, and, you know, when they get married, they still live together. So there's, there's something about community and the love and connection. You know, I base a lot of what I do on the, the concept that we have six human needs. And that love and connection is one of the human needs that I believe is impacted by the way we live now. And we don't have that same village. We don't, you know, and we live in different parts of the world. We just don't have the same, you know, person to person support. So in Indonesia, I did, I loved that they, you know, I'll live to, well, I don't know, I'm saying I loved it. Maybe if I had to live with all my family, I'd be saying different. I'm sure they would too, if they're listening. Montenegro, that's when I was, you know, we were trying to get pregnant. So it was like three years of trying. And one of the things that I came across there was that when they have a baby, they are left for 40 days. Mm-hmm. without visitors, without, so that they get, and there was something I thought was quite lovely about that as well, that they get that time because our culture is as soon as that baby's out of there, everyone's in hospital and there's balloons and, you know, and you go on this high, but then when that all calms down and you're left, you're like, oh shit. So don't do that other way around where you get to navigate being this new parent and, First and then introducing everyone. So I did love that. Then when I started this, this was, you know, this business for me was when we were in Dubai. This is when I studied and, you know, my son went to nursery. So then I had time to study and I grew from there. And I feel like now I can walk into a room and sit with some new parents and I can tell you who's struggling. You know, a sixth sense. I don't know. But I also find that there, it's this masking thing that I was talking about. And especially somewhere, you know, Dubai is considered glamorous and affluent. And there are a lot of people who are living a lifestyle that they're trying to maintain. So then it can become difficult to say, actually, this is not really the lifestyle that I'm living. This is tough. there's a lot of support there. You find that in Indonesia, it's the same. You know, they employ people to help in the house or nannies to help with the children. Dubai, that's very normalised as well. There's a lot of that. I never did that because I micromanaged too much.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:so so yeah like you know so Montenegro was where I learned about this 40 day thing that I loved and Dubai is where I was learning about more parents and realizing how many of us really have had these experiences you know I always remember I was talking at an event and it was I was going around tables it was in a coffee shop environment and I was talking to one group of women. I think there was four or five of them. And as I was talking, there was one who kept looking at me, then looking at her friend. So I knew that whatever I was talking about, it was hitting somewhere for her. And when I said, like I did to you earlier, that I didn't feel like I wasn't bonding with my son, I just felt I loved him so much, I was so scared, and she burst into tears.
SPEAKER_04:I
SPEAKER_03:knew so then you know I sat with her and she said you know I keep saying this to my husband and it's not that I'm not bonding you know and it was that realisation that yeah I'm doing something that's important because it's not just it wasn't just me and I knew it wasn't just me but in that moment you feel so isolated you can't imagine that anyone else would ever understand how you're feeling until we start doing this. And I think that this is preparation. I think when we go to an antenatal class and they show you how to give the baby a bath and how to change a nappy or a diaper, it's like, guys, you need to do better. We need a little bit more than that. You figure that shit out. Being a parent, it's not academically challenging. It's mentally and emotionally challenging. That's the, we need these tools. Well,
SPEAKER_01:and I think how you were talking about, like you are bonding with your baby, but, and yet. that we have to like, again, the, the roles that we have, I feel like we have to keep like parsing apart the conversation of you can actually not like motherhood or parenthood and love your child and, and have that be something because like parenthood sucks. It's, it's up in the night, it's washing dishes, it's filling out forms. It's like that, that it's not fun. And we, I mean, and we call that parenthood and it's really just like, They're tasks, it's work. And so I remember when I was, I mean, I had my daughter younger than I expected. So I was 26. And, and they like in my community to prevent mental health concerns happening, they like put everybody who had their babies in the same month in a group, like these free meetups. So they were like, you all had your babies in August, you should go over here and talk. And yeah, your friends now as you know, and I remember at one of the I found the women like they just weren't my people. And we just happened to live in the same neighborhood and happen to have our babies around the same time that's the only cross section yeah and so I remember just like bouncing feeling so bad like so bad and I thought like well we're in the same boat and I was like hey does anyone else like hate this like hate this and the looks on their faces it was like I said I hate gray and I didn't I said hate this and because we were I don't know six weeks postpartum I had no support I had an unsafe partner I was so under resourced like you know and had postpartum depression that nobody nobody noticed and like The look on their faces though was so isolating for me. And I was like, I know I'm a good mom. Like I take this so fucking seriously. Like I love this baby and I hate everything else. So then I like, sometimes I was like, do I hate my baby? Like, am I actually a terrible parent? And it took
SPEAKER_03:having- does start blurring the lines and it's like is it this like yeah yeah and you know it's sad when I started studying that was when I felt like a light went on and what I now understand is because when I was being mum I wasn't studying I wasn't working anymore so I wasn't getting significance because I wasn't getting a paycheck and I wasn't using my brain I wasn't even listening to music that I liked anymore. I was playing stuff that maybe would be suitable for Archie. When he used to nap, I used to play Go Go Penguin. That was the closest I got to playing music that I also enjoyed. And now what I realise is that I was impacting my own growth. I was impacting my own significance. And just that kind of need to... be all to everyone and almost playing that martyr card you know to go and do something for myself meant that I would feel that extreme guilt and that I was a shit mum like it was all bullshit I'm a brilliant mum you know but our minds lie to us and that is why this space is you know is so vulnerable
SPEAKER_01:well it's a complete loss of identity and we're supposed to be okay with it so not only do we have like a new sleep schedule which is interrupted which is fucks with anybody's mental health like sleep is a pillar of our survival and so we have this like there's just so much change and we're supposed to fall in love with the loss of identity that we were like dancers and writers and activists and social butterflies and party girls and like you know all these things and now we're supposed to just be mum and I remember being like I vocalized, like Gray was pretty young when I was like, I actually don't think mom is like in my top 10 most interesting things about me. And so when, when I would talk to people and like, even when I was dating again, like after I got divorced and I was like out, people like on our third date would be like, wait, you have a kid? And I was like, yeah, it's not a secret. I just, there's so much more interesting stuff about me than this. Yeah. then this role of motherhood gray, really important identity of mother. No, like it's kind of just like a biological thing that happened to me. And so, um, I think like there's so much collapse in all of this and, and I, I, you know, when I work with my clients in the postpartum, cause I get them in there like brand new postpartum as a, as a birth doula. Um, like I love having the conversations to set the stage that it's okay that they don't like the work of motherhood it's okay that they miss their old life it's okay that they're like maybe have regrets around parts of it and you can still love your child like that could be separate
SPEAKER_03:because it's a massive shift you know it's and again that this feeds back into this you know these needs that we have right so for me like my driving human need is certainty I am very routine orientated I'm very systematic so for you know those 40 years I got to do that and then all of a sudden my routines were impacted and my systems were impacted because I had a new person to look after and I just hadn't considered that because I didn't know I didn't understand this framework so when you don't know what you don't know it's very difficult to navigate it The same if you are someone who thrives on variety, but all of a sudden you've got to be at home, you know, for feeding or sleeping or, you know, so either way it's impacted when you become a parent, right? Especially in those early days. But when you understand that you can at least make a bit of room for that. And I think that's what happens is we don't make that room. I don't think we really anticipate that. what it's like having a child, because you can't, because we're all so different. Our delivery is unique, our pregnancy is unique. You know, if you're adopting a child or you're bringing in a foster child, whatever is coming into the dynamics of your regular day-to-day life, you can't anticipate how that is going to fall out. Yeah. If you've got an understanding, and like you say, having someone say, it's okay... that in itself can just you know okay some breathing room right yeah
SPEAKER_01:and I think oh man I love this conversation so much longest podcast ever but I just think like I just my my dream would be just that there'd be more room for um Like people actually telling their truth without feeling the risk of shame. Because I know I even talk to childless people who say talk about their friends from high school and they're like, oh, yeah, like she had her baby and she was like back in the club. And I like let them say their thing. And I'm like, good for her. Good for her. She's not a bad mom because we do know the stats that dad's. get more leisure time and take up more hobbies with every subsequent child so I heard
SPEAKER_03:you saying
SPEAKER_01:that I
SPEAKER_03:was listening to one of your one of the podcasts and I heard you saying that and I was like this is really interesting um because I also have a take on for the dads right and it's but it's coming the other way where I sometimes feel like they can be left out of these conversations yeah And the impact on them can, you know, I don't know who these dads are that are getting the more leisure time. It wasn't my husband.
SPEAKER_01:You know, so for me- Nikki, that's not surprising that you would find a good husband who wouldn't do that.
SPEAKER_03:You know, the impact for him, you know, I would reflect back and I think men, primitively, they are hunter-gatherers, they fix stuff, right? So when their wife is on the kitchen floor- and they don't know how to fix her, they go into paralysis. You know, I often think we were both overseas. We were away from our families. The weight of the financial pressure of him going to work was probably a bit heavier because I was then at home. He was also getting up through the night. We never did this role thing that many families do where it's like, okay, you go to work. therefore you get to sleep every night and I'll just carry the weight of everything. That's bullshit. Because I'm like, yeah, they get to go to work. They get to step out into a different environment with other adults. They get to drink coffee while it's hot. You know, they get to use their brains and they get to do their contribution to the world. Whatever job it is they do, they are getting the significance of being paid for that.
SPEAKER_01:So don't tell me- Being alone on their commute.
SPEAKER_03:You know, it should be one another because that drives me nuts. If you guys were in it together, then that's, you know, you need to work through this together. So, yeah, and then he was, you know, obviously not getting to exercise as much because when he came home from work, I had to have a break or a nap or, you know, so he was taking over. So there was that impact for both of us not getting to exercise so much, not perhaps eating as well as we should have. And this is all the stuff that I put into my digital program. It's all super practical because it matters. And I still use my digital program. Now, if I turn my laptop, I've got two sheets pinned up in my kitchen because it helps. It helps to navigate these roles that often become stuck, right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so it's interesting that there's the other side of this because I've been looking at it from that side, you know, but then when you're saying there's stats that prove this, that these guys are getting to do more and you're like, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and like you said, nobody's thriving in this environment. So as much as like, I still feel the rage because Women are still carrying this. Primary parents are still carrying this, the invisible labor, the mental load, the hands-on, the lack of sleep. But at the same time, there's a loss of the lack of contact, right? of the other parent, in which case most of the times it's dads, that they are not going through those parental brain changes that are really important for them to connect to their children, to actually have this like, you know, protection and connection. And that's why we see as that goes on, the resentment comes that like so many women I talk to feel like their husbands and the dads are threatened by the like, loss that they get from their children. And so they're like, well, you don't touch me anymore because you're always touching that baby. And we, you don't want to do anything for me because all you talk about is the baby or the kids. And so because they haven't connected and actually like literally gone through those neurological changes. And so I think that's really sad. It's sad that they are alone in the house all the time and they opt out of things and they don't know their children and you know, they see their children as more of a threat of their resources and time than they do as something that they should protect with their life. It's sad. And so, I mean, but as an advocate for the primary parents and women and mothers and queer folks, I, I'm like, you guys find your, your own support and then you come to the table and we have to fix this together. So like I have empathy and compassion and I understand their thing. But like my work is, is on, is over here.
SPEAKER_03:But it is, it's like, you know, everyone needs an advocate, right? Everyone deserves it. And I do think, you know, a lot of the time it is, you know, you've got to come to the table being prepared to do the work because you and I, can't do that work for them you know I had this conversation this morning you know if you want something to change in your life if you're not happy with the balance of where things are I think the expectations and this is what I believe is one of the contributing factors is that these expectations aren't discussed before the child arrives it's afterwards so it's when you're in crisis mode And that's when you're communicating, I need your help, I need you to do this. And then they're defensive. But if this is managed beforehand, like who is doing the nighttime stuff? Who's getting up with someone, you know, based on how they're feeding, whatever the choices are made there. Like, how is this going to work? And, you know, we had spoken about this before my son arrived, that I had chosen to express milk You know, I was like, I'll try breastfeeding, but really what I wanted to do was express milk so that he could have it in a bottle so that both of us could feed him. Because I was aware that being a bit older, you know, I'm not saying I was ancient and I don't like that term geriatric mum, right? But I was 41 when he came to keep some balance. I knew the impact of not sleeping, how that makes me feel. So we had these conversations in advance. And therefore, we were able to do that, right? So, you know, this is me who did have that support. I mean, when it comes to the on-hand stuff, you know, my husband is an amazing, amazing father. So then I think about people who don't have that, and I think, fuck, you know, I know how I felt. And that was with a supportive partner, you know, so... I think preparation is something that really these conversations need to happen before. Talking about the in-laws or the expectations of people coming to visit, you know, the food preparation, the taking care of the house. If you've got older kids, what's happening with the siblings? Like all of these things should be looked at. I'm not saying you'll have your ideal answer because sometimes it doesn't work out. But have a baggy enough to live in idea. of how you're going to look. And I think that would help manage some of the expectations because I don't think we do expect what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_01:No, and well, as a society, though, we do expect the one parent who's typically the dad is going to leave the house to go to work and then everything else. And, you know, that's driving groceries, taking the bins to the curb for pickup day, dry cleaning, like doctor's appointments. And 24-7, that is what the social expectation is. And so in the absence of a clear conversation that challenges that, The family is agreeing to that. And dads are shocked that you'd be upset. They're like, but that's the deal we made. That's what everybody does. I go to work and you do everything else. Yeah. Oh, man, anytime I would, I don't have very many men in my house, as you can imagine. I don't, I don't know that many men. But I've had some renos recently. So I've had a lot of trades coming through my house. And none of them get to leave without me being like, hey, question for you. Do you have children? Oh, yeah. And I'm like, does she allowed? Is she allowed as much time out of the house as you are? And they're like, well, we try to get her like, you know a girl's night once a month but like she never really wants to she's too tired and i was like do you know your uh your kid's shoe size do you know like if they have any allergies and i'll ask like a million questions and if they say no to any of them i'm like why why don't you know these things and they're literally like lady i just was installed installing your heat pump i'm i need to go and i'm like no no one more minute
SPEAKER_03:that's it you know that you've now just scared off any future tradesmen coming into your head they'll be like I've heard that name Bianca
SPEAKER_01:and my husband has a big sign over it that says the pussy palace so they're like it's probably spread real quickly they're like no man don't don't go there it's angry lesbians
SPEAKER_03:love it but it is and it's It's tough because we can talk about this stuff all day and obviously there's a lot that is generalisations and there are good guys out there for anybody who's got hope for a good man. They do exist. But it is a shame because we do have these generalised statistics right and the way that society has set it up and it's like okay now it's time to start shifting these things and I do believe that some of it is shifting you know I'm hopeful but I don't know maybe I'm just being optimistic
SPEAKER_01:Well, we also probably curate our lives that we have a skewed. I'm always shocked when I talk to other people when I leave my bubble of like very carefully politically and socially curated world. So, you know, I think that the general messaging and we're going backwards with, you know, what's happening to the south of my of my country here. When we look at the US of A, that we are we're losing footing and we're I oscillate between deep optimism because I'll meet some really wonderful men and then I'm like, no, I think we're going in the right direction. And then I look at the statistics and talk to people outside of my community and I'm like, oh man, we're going the wrong direction. And
SPEAKER_03:I think that's quite important when you're looking at your own environment because I'm very much someone who... I get up in the morning and think, right, what can I control in my day-to-day life? And it's usually this perimeter. When I start watching the news and, you know, looking at politics and looking at these things, you know, I just get that doom, that fear, and it really impacts how I play out in that day, my mood and my emotions. So I'm very aware of how much I let go. Some might say it's ignorant. I should know more of what's going on in the world. But I feel like my duty of care is to my completely oblivious, happy seven-year-old boy. That's where my focus goes right now, you know, is making sure that he has a healthy and happy mum that can support him. So, yeah, it's not always easy to do that, you know. But I think there are times, especially, and if you are in... the depths of it just now. If you are someone that's feeling, when you're listening to us chat, that you're in that spiral and you're not sure how to get out, watching the news is not for you just now. You've got to really prioritise getting your strength so that you can navigate the day-to-day stuff. I think that's quite important. Our external stimulus is important, right? What you listen to, who you... who you hang out with sometimes that can be detrimental you know
SPEAKER_01:yeah you have to be really really intentional as you're trying to get well and I know I just came out of a pretty long long by like social standards it was six weeks but a bereavement leave and I stay up on politics I stay up on you know because it's relevant to the work that I do as an activist and um and I I I had to put it down and I know that there was a stress for me because a lot of the times, you know, with the conversation around white supremacy and privilege that it's a lot of flack being like, well, it must be nice to be able to like put this down because you're not say living in Palestine or you're not, you know, in the South of the US or, you know, any of these things. And it's a yes and, you know, because I can't, you know, I can't be a good parent and I can't continue being an activist. So I know we have a lot of... activists that listen to this podcast and it's a way more nuanced conversation than just like a cut and dry privilege conversation. I know that I would not be able to, it just wasn't possible. And it was the first time that I had to step away from the news. Ironically, it was probably some of the biggest biggest shifts in the world so I'm feeling like a little bit embarrassed how out of the loop I am but I know even just when I made contact points with it like in my dentist office when the news was on my anxiety and depression just where I almost just wanted to get in my car and drive and rock at home kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03:You can't be the best showing up doing what you do if you allow yourself to be burnt out and to be completely encompassed by it. So you have to unapologetically say, I need time out. I need to put it down. And I think that people who, in whatever space you're in, understand that we all have to look at ourselves so that we can show up and do the work that we do you know what's important yeah for sure I
SPEAKER_01:was it was such a media lockdown so I like didn't even open social media I didn't listen to the news which is like us on non-stop at my house I didn't read anything um and so even my daughter was like oh my goodness the super bowl halftime I was like oh yeah that's coming up she's like mom it was three weeks ago I was like I missed the super bowl wow all right like there you go there was like seven six seven weeks of just complete darkness and now i live rurally so it was real easy to do like when i lived in toronto it would have been hard to
SPEAKER_03:it's refreshing as well because we didn't always have the access to it all i know and this is what i find interesting like my husband's a history teacher so nerd i didn't even really like school i can't believe i married a teacher but like when I you know when I talk about I don't pay enough attention to the news and you know and it can be deemed to be ignorant so there are times when you know I'll say to Kevin the world scares me just now you know we've got our son and this scares me and he'll say things like we're actually living in safer times I'm like how can you say that and he's like because we didn't know everything you know there were lots of atrocities that went on but we didn't know. And of course now we've got media who also drive us, we're funneled into what we think about everything, right? Based on how it's delivered to us. Like it is, and I think that's what terrifies me is because it's so controlled from different media outlets, how we find out things. So I tend to go, I'm going to watch Bridget Jones with my popcorn and I'll be quite happy there. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and the anxiety, so like not only world events, but also there's so much fear around parenting and new research. And if you don't do this, this is going to happen to your child. And there's a book, I think it's called Ordinary Insanity. Did I make that up? No, I think it is, but it's talking about, it's another one of those, you that because we're constantly scanning to be risk averse and to mitigate those risks. which some of them are so low and the actual actions to mitigate them hold more guaranteed side effects, risks like anxiety to the parents. And, and so, you know, we're taking in that as well as just the climate of general anxiety in the world is anxious, which makes us individually anxious. And then we send that back out in the world and we're in this like anxiety and depression loop with our environment.
SPEAKER_03:And that is why, you know, for me, i believe we have to do is to do our own personal development right when you're becoming a parent i don't i don't talk to anyone or teach anyone about how to feed their child how their child should sleep whether that's with them or not with it it's nothing to do with that what i'm doing is inviting people to come and do a bit of personal development and understand themselves a little better as to how they tick And to find the ways that you then tap into that to build your own confidence so that you can stand in that space with your decisions and be okay with them. I remember when we were out one time having coffee and there was an older gentleman that we knew and he came by and he stopped and he's looking in at Archie and he's like, oh, he's getting big. And he made a reference, I can't remember word for word, but he made a reference to Archie being breastfed. And I said, oh no, he gets a bottle, right? He was actually combination fed. He got some formula, some of my milk. Nothing to do with the man. I don't even know why I was explaining it, but this is why I was explaining it because we automatically feel we've got to justify our decisions. I was in that.
SPEAKER_01:To a
SPEAKER_03:stranger. Yeah. a stranger man he's like he wasn't a stranger we didn't know him but when I said you know that I wasn't breastfeeding he went why ever not and that's when you know it obviously kicked in and I saw my husband kind of react because he thought she's going to absolutely lose her shit on this guy and I didn't and but I did say I don't think that's any of your business But it's something that's prominent in my memory because I'm like, he made me feel like shit by saying, why ever not? When really, you know, had I had my own boundaries and my own confidence around my decisions, then it maybe wouldn't have impacted me so much. And that is what I'm doing for parents. I'm not here to tell them how to parent or how to manage the behaviours or any of that other stuff. That is not what I do. I'm here to go, can we just talk about how you can set up little toolbox so that when you're making the decisions they're yours they're not the decisions because instagram has loads of accounts where they do x y and z you know let it be your own guide yourself and the parent that you want to be and when you are doing that it's amazing you know like there's a lot of things i don't do just because everyone else is doing it like lot of children are really structured now they've got school all week and then at the weekends they've got x y and z and and i'm sure it'll come i'm sure archie will come to us and say i want to do this sports thing or whatever but right now we're not pushing them because at the weekend he wants to watch tv and eat toast and he wants to hang out at home if you ask him what do you want to do he'll say i just want to stay at home And we're like, sweet. And we play games and we take him to the supermarket and he hates it. But we're like, you know, all those snacks you want, got to go buy them. But what I mean is that so many people now are scared to just stop and have a simple life. Yeah. Because they feel they're supposed to have these kids like, you know. Over-programmed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. But they need to know all these things. Yeah. I mean, when you're, breaking the the mold of of dominant culture and what our expectations are anything is is considered like subversive and radical um you know and it's not like none of these things are radical they're just not expected or like they're there's a reason why we're forced on the same cattle run
SPEAKER_03:yeah and we're given that new narrative right it's like change and Because the world's changing and everything's evolved, you know, and a lot of it, whether we like it or not, you know, I've been going to meetings about like the anxious generation, you know, the book that was written. And again, this could be another podcast, right? Because I've got different opinions about a lot of this as well. But the fact is, is that things are evolving and a lot of it is out of our control, you know, and as parents, we evolve. So what we once thought was cool, changes and that's okay too and i think a lot of people get stuck with their previous identity or the stories that they tell themselves about who they are and how they show up in the world they think they've got to maintain that and it's like no it's okay to let go and to let it evolve you can change change your opinion you can change your mind you know so i think that's important that people understand that you know and they don't have to because otherwise you just go into conflict with yourself if you're trying to resist that change and that evolving you're just in a state of conflict then with yourself right because you're like I should be out partying even though I've got a kid but I really can't because I'm awfully tired it's like it's okay if you don't party anymore it's fine in the ages now I think you know like you and I you just said you're in your 40s as well
SPEAKER_01:You look amazing, by the way. Anybody, go over to Nikki's Instagram right now, follow while you're there, and look at how young she looks.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, babe. 48. I think I pickled myself with the previous speaker. 48, 49 in March. But there's also a huge evolving with that. Even if we haven't become parents, I think you just become... less tolerant of other people's bullshit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. I'm falling into that real nice. I'm just like, fuck off. Don't touch me. Don't talk to me. Why are you talking to me? I'm
SPEAKER_03:getting better. I'm a bit of a, I was a very much a people pleaser. Yeah. I didn't like rocking the boat and I didn't like, but I feel like I've gotten way better now. And especially coming into this space, you know, when I started as the Scottish soul sister and I've been doing collaborations and podcasts and all these things. But now, you know, I don't see everything as opportunity and I've had conversations with people about potential collaborations and I've been like, fuck no. We don't jam. We are on different pages. That is not collaboration. You know, this is just trying to get more followers or whatever it is that you're trying to do. so that takes that bit of assertiveness right to say no that's not for me and when you start building that muscle then you can stand in that space and go okay we know what we're doing now you know
SPEAKER_01:yeah i'm learning what i'm learning that good girl feels real nice i'm like oh get out of here get out of your people pleaser get out of your person that says yes to everything no matter what
SPEAKER_03:exhaustion as a badge of honor no way yeah no no no um
SPEAKER_01:No, she's got to go. So I know there's a lot of tools and like when we have the self-care conversation, which all the things, oh, the sun is out, it's on my face. Unfortunately, the video is not here because I'm just like burnt out white person on the... on the camera, but it feels real nice in my eyes. Okay. So when we talk about self-care conversation, a lot of the times it feels like more you have to do, like even when you were saying you've got to go out or like have girls time and you're like, I don't want, I don't want to go for a pedicure. I don't want to go to a yoga class. I'm too tired to go out for dinner with my friends. So I know that you really want to, you know, change that conversation as well and have self-care conversations. be something that's not more you have to do when you're already doing too much. So can you talk about how you're doing that through your work? So when I talk about self-care, I
SPEAKER_03:think sometimes when you say self-care, people automatically think, you know, massage, spa day, these kind of luxury things. So the way that I've broken it down is to imagine that you have three accounts and your first account is your physical medical account. Because mental health is massively impacted by our physical health, right? So if you have issues with your gut, if your hormones are imbalanced, if you have a vitamin deficiency, you know, for women, it's keeping on top of having our smear tests, our mammograms. For the guys, having, you know, prostate checks, looking after our physical body can have a huge impact. So that, to me, comes under self-care.
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03:The second account is where it's like, okay, do you want your massage, your spa day? You know, when I lived in Dubai, I would always say, you know, go to the Maldives for a weekend because people actually do that. We didn't, but people did. But whatever seems like a luxury, you know, to do, like you say, is it something else that you have to do? And then the third one is, you know, your third account is your daily habits. And I think that's where your power lies. I feel that often when we're looking at self-care and how to get ourselves feeling better, there's quite a big distance. It's a bit like when people have New Year resolutions and they go from drinking bottles of Baileys and eating mince pies, and all of a sudden they're going to go to the gym five days a week and they're going to have kale for breakfast. And you're like, no, you're not. Or you maybe will for a couple of weeks, but you're not going to keep doing that. So everything that I talk about is almost like that term Kaizen, the Japanese term, which is like small increments making things better. So an example is like when I get up in the morning, I do a seven minute workout because seven minutes is like, okay, we can handle seven minutes rather than like you say, they have to go for an hour to the gym or, you know, it's bringing it into a space where it's within reach. Yeah. And again, everything that I do is practical. So I talk about your environment. Are you getting natural sunlight in? Because I feel that the wellness industry, I don't know how you feel about this. I feel like the wellness industry and the coaching world, and it's just like, it's massive. And there are so many modalities, but often they're bypassing the simplicity and the basics of our day-to-day life. So I've stayed in this space. I've had business coaches tell me I should be doing X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, no, this is what I'm doing. And this is what has helped me because I always am very, very clear that I still have shit days. You know, you don't just get rid of feelings of anxiety or feelings of depression because they're still going to come and bite you in the ass, right? But what happens is that I definitely navigate it differently now. You know, and at the moment I don't have medication, which is great. I don't have an issue with people taking medication. If I had to go back on it, yes, I would. But I feel like what I've done, the structure that I've built for myself, I don't actually need it. Again, that comes into expectation. I think sometimes people get the pill and they think that's all they need to do. And it's like, it's not. That's just a part of it. You know, you also have to make whatever changes are required at that time. And of course, that's difficult if you've just had a baby. You know, it's like things are changing enough. So that's why we keep it simple. We talk about, you know, managing your finances. What's your budget looking like just now? And especially if you're a couple, you've just had a child, maybe one's not going to be working for a while. There are different outlays when a kid comes along. You know, so getting into a space, I really struggled with, when we moved to Montenegro to become financially dependent on Kevin I had worked since I was like 16 and other than my parents had never been financially dependent on anyone and I remember us having the conversation at that time I was like dude I cannot come to you and say can I get 10 euros to go for coffee like that would have destroyed me so we worked out our shit and and that's what I'm trying to invite people to do. I'm like, look at your budgets, look at what you're doing with your time. This is self-care. You know, it's just that we don't always put it in that terminology, but this is self-care, you know, managing your expectations.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. I mean, I think so much self-care is stopping things, like doing less. That's like one of the greatest acts of self-care for me was like stopping like not doing things. And you'd be surprised. We can always talk ourselves. out of putting something down. Like we have, we can justify all the things that we do, but like what happens if your partner picks up their own dry cleaning because it's inconvenient for you? Like you can adjust and make it work. And those are small tasks. You know, you don't have, well, the years that I stopped going to my family of origin for holidays was like such a game changer. And then it just, that really kicked it off. Oh, I actually don't have to do anything. And I think that's, that's, such a radical act of self-care
SPEAKER_03:yeah it's like say putting things down you know we spoke earlier about like the alcohol so many things are habitual so many things are just because we've always done it we don't even question it we don't look at it and it's not until something makes you look at it and you go oh actually so things like you know I had a really it was a natural shift when I started doing all this like so actually was two so five years ago And what I started realising, like, I love watching some dark TV and I would read books that were always like thrillers. Someone has always been murdered. And, you know, I would listen to like Damien Rice and really, you know, Anthony and the Johnsons, really fucking depressing music. And it was one day I was at home and I went to put music on and it was one of those that I went to play. And I was like, oh my God, no wonder I'm fucking depressed. And I started to realise the impact of these things. So then I would naturally, you know, I started listening to music, but I always loved dance music, upbeat stuff. You know, I watch more comedy now, less dark stuff. I still like the odd dark series, you know, I love Stephen Graham and people like that. But we watch a lot of comedians and funny, light-hearted things. You know, when I'm reading now, I'm not quite as dark. I tend to read more that's to do with what I'm doing, you know, in this space. Or a novel that is not specifically about anyone being murdered or anything dark.
SPEAKER_01:That's hard. I love my true crime. I love
SPEAKER_03:my murder mysteries. Yeah, we love a bit of car crash stuff, right? But what I'm saying is when you become aware of that and you start going, actually, this is feeding my state, you know? Yeah. So it depends on the mood that I'm in and how I'm feeling at a particular time will determine if I go back into that space again. But I was never aware of it before. So it was just habitual to me that I would just stay in this kind of dark roomy space. I was feeding it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, it leaves so much space. Um, anybody listening, like working with somebody like Nikki and really being prepared to look at, like, if you hate mealtime, there's probably something you can like overthrow to make the whole thing feel good, especially because feeding with love is such a critical pillar for mental health as well. Um, and body celebration. So, um, you know, Nikki, I
SPEAKER_03:hate the baby.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Don't get me started. My feet didn't bounce back. My feet are a size bigger than they were before I had my kids. Like, and he's seven and they're still us. I had to buy all new shoes. Nobody told me that. Nobody
SPEAKER_01:said that my feet were going to grow. Yeah, they grow and they stay grown. How can people work with you,
SPEAKER_03:Nikki? So everything's on the website, on the Scottish Soul System. and there is when you go on there's a little quiz as well which can help you identify what needs a bit of attention you know with their self-care I love a quiz I love fun stuff you know and that's the thing even though the space that I'm in is it's a heavy space right mental health is of course a heavy space but I'm not here to feed that I'm here to give you a bit of hope you know and to have somewhere where you can speak honestly because that in itself is so helpful. It was the first thing that I did. I spoke to a counsellor and I thought, this woman is going to resign tomorrow. I just felt that I was like gobbledygook, but because she did what she did, she sent me an email the next day and she was able to read between the lines. She could identify the things that were contributing to how I was feeling, It was amazing. And I think that even when you've got super supportive family and friends, we often wear a bit of a veil when we're talking to them for different reasons. For myself, I didn't want my mum to worry. I didn't want them to think I was a shit mum. So I wasn't being fully transparent. But when I spoke to the counsellor, who of course was a removed third party counsellor, It gave me that opportunity to actually see what was going on. And it was the best thing that I ever did. You know, so that's what I want to be for other people. I want people to know that this is where they can come and let rip. There's no judgments. There's no opinions. I'm not here to fix it for you. But hopefully I can give you some guidance that can help you to fix it and make things a bit easier as you transition, you know.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. And if anybody's curious, you can reach out and chat with Nikki. She does free consultations. There's lots of very affordable options to, you know, make sure that you have these tools to protect you and your family and keep everybody well in the household because, you know, mental health, any kind of unwellness in the household of any person impacts everybody else so um we're gonna have all those links in the show notes so you can follow nikki on social media you can check out her website and you can find the many ways to work with her nikki i'm so glad you got to be on the podcast i feel like we need to have a follow-up because there's like so many directions i know i was just gonna say you'll find all
SPEAKER_03:the links at the end of this four hour
SPEAKER_01:podcast
SPEAKER_03:thank you so much for having me I love these conversations and you know that we're out there hopefully somebody that's listening will have heard something that just makes them feel heard and less alone right
SPEAKER_01:yeah For sure. And for those birth workers out there, you can hear the way you can maybe reframe some of the questions you're asking. And this is another really great resource for you to recommend to your clients and you can connect them with Nikki. And so that you can, we're typically some of the first the first line of defense of catching these issues before they kind of get away from parents and families. So put, put Nikki in your toolbox and, and recommend her to your clients. Thanks everybody for listening. And we will catch you on the next episode of the hot and brave podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Pod. podcast.
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