Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S5E2 - Giving Birth in a Foreign Country: What No One Tells You with Hannah Preil
Giving birth in a foreign country comes with surprises, challenges, and a whole lot of translation errors. Maternity mentor and expat mama Hannah Preil shares what it’s really like to navigate pregnancy, birth, and postpartum abroad. Plus, how to build a support system when family is an ocean away.
Find our more about Hannah here: www.hannahlouisematernitymentor.com
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You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Hot and Brave podcast. This is a podcast we're going to get real about birth business and the bullshit that comes with both. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague, and I'm really excited to be launching season five. So I've been, you know, exploring kind of like the next layer of my healing and this kind of like growth journey I'm on. Well, we're all on, but you can choose to participate or not. And I am participating with both feet. And, you know, I've been really called to making art lately, like sewing, needlepoint, pottery, quilting, you know, it's honestly all I want to do. And I was recently listening to the book Beyond Anxiety. It's a book by Martha Beck, who I absolutely adore. It came out, I don't know, last month, maybe January. And one of the main balances for anxiety is creativity, because anxiety is all in the left hemisphere you know it's thinking that predicting worrying and so rather than trying to like fight it or heal it instead working out the right side through creativity is really creates kind of that checks and balances so that we're not constantly existing in this like state of anxiety um so i've been really naturally drawn to this as i've been you know grieving lately and and exploring what's next for me because you know grace starting university and it So I can't say enough good things about this book. I'm only like 15% of the way in, so I don't want to like, I don't know. That's all I can say about it so far. But if you want to get your hands on a copy, check out the show notes. We'll have a link there for you to make it nice and easy because, you know, I kind of went on a journey. That's not how I was going to start the podcast, but I'm obsessed with it right now. And I'm always trying to gather really helpful resources for all of you so that you can keep doing your healing work, you know, as, as as helpers and as carers, we have to keep getting really intentional about how we feel and how we can take care of ourselves and then take care of others. Okay, so today I am joined by Hannah Prael, who's a maternity mentor, hypnobirthing coach, and also, most importantly, as far as this conversation goes, an expat. She's a mama three who knows firsthand what it's like to navigate pregnancy, birth, and postpartum in a country that isn't your own. So she is originally from the UK and she's now living in Switzerland and Hannah's like really on this mission to support parents who find themselves lost in translation, literally. So here's what we're going to talk about. You know, if you've ever wondered what it's like to give birth in a healthcare system that isn't built for you, which most aren't, but adding in a language you don't fully understand, this episode is going to be right up your alley So we're going to be talking about birthing abroad and how different is it really and what folks should know before they find themselves choosing to give birth in another country, you know, before they go into labor. We talk a little bit about the power of language and how words spoken during pregnancy, birth and the postpartum can make or break an experience. But what happens when you're not fluent in the system or the system's language that's supposed to be the support for you? And we're going to bring it on home with really talking about postpartum support for expats and like how do we build that support system when your family is potentially an ocean away and you don't have that built-in village spoiler you don't have to move your mother or your mother-in-law into your house to get through the postpartum period I love this conversation with Hannah because she's really practical she's so real and she's so deeply committed to making sure parents feel empowered no matter where in the world they're giving birth so whether you're planning to have a baby abroad or you support families in a country that isn't their home or maybe you're just curious about how birth culture shifts from place to place you're going to get so much out of this episode before we get into it quick few quick updates first world doula week coming up we've got a full lineup of events and promos happening all week long it kicks off March 22nd so if you're on the email list keep an eye on your inbox we'll be dropping all the details there also MS SP starts this week and there's still a few spots left. If you've been on the fence, now is the time to jump in and start your doula training. You can start practicing this summer. Build that business, make that money, change the world, all good things. If you use the code SHIRT at checkout, you're going to get a very large discount and a free doula shirt with your registration. It will work for payment plans as well. And if you're feeling a little bit stuck in your business, you do not have to do it alone. If things are feeling slow or messy or overwhelming, I do offer one-on-one support to help you get unstuck. So let's help you make a plan and really move forward with confidence and know what's next for you and your business. You can also check out the show notes for details how to book a session with me. Okay, I know you're already in your podcast app, so hit those five stars and leave us a review. Seriously, it helps more doulas and birth workers find us and we love hearing from you. So it like has lots of great benefits. Final warning, we swear here sometimes. So if little ears are around, grab those headphones now. All right, let's get into it. Here is my conversation with Hannah. Hi, Hannah. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Hi, Bianca. It's a pleasure to be here. Okay, so where in the
SPEAKER_02:world are you right now? So I am at home in Zurich, in Switzerland, which has been home now for nearly 10 years.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Is it as cold there as it is here in Eastern
SPEAKER_02:Canada? It's pretty cold, but I have to say we're enjoying a sunny day. So I don't mind the cold when it's like this. Sometimes it can be quite cold.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. So did you have your babies in the UK or in Switzerland? No,
SPEAKER_02:I had all three in Switzerland with a kind of very, how to put it, punchy two-year gap between each of them, which, yeah, was quite close together. But yes, all three here. And had you said to me, you know, before, oh, you'll be, you know, having your babies in Switzerland. I would have said, gosh, that's, you know, something that I'd never considered. I grew up in the UK and then I met my husband who was working in Switzerland and it just so happened that our relationship meant that we were going to be located in Switzerland and that's where it all ended up happening.
SPEAKER_01:All right. And what were some of the major differences you noticed being there? I mean, and I'm assuming it was probably earlier in your time in Switzerland. You probably like feel a little bit more comfortable, et cetera, there now than when you had your first pregnancy.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. So my first son was born nearly seven years ago and it was a huge change moving from the UK, which is a system where we have a national health service, which essentially is a fully public health service. So coming into a system that's completely private, where everybody has to have a mandatory level of health insurance, and then you have the ability to add on to that supplementary options. But I mean, the nuts and bolts of kind of understanding policies is, I mean, you could spend quite a lot of time studying Swiss insurance policies. There's a lot of detail. There's interesting clauses, like you have to have had the policy for at least a year to be able to get the maternity benefit. So for example, for like someone moving out here, you don't get some of the benefits, even though you're paying for the insurance, unless you've been here paying the insurance policy for a year. So the insurance side of things was the biggest difference, I think. But on the flip side, the health system here is phenomenal. It is phenomenal. efficient um it is of a very very high level um you know you don't wait to see doctors and that i think is one of the biggest positive things that i've seen in terms of the difference um yeah um lots lots to learn definitely
SPEAKER_01:so you've had this lived experience of birthing multiple times um as an expat and now you've been called to support other expats as a doula
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yeah. So my journey started, I guess, when I had my first baby, which didn't go exactly how I imagined it to go. My doctor, who was meant to turn up on the day, didn't turn up. And then there was a whole cascade of things that happened, which, on reflection, actually probably could have been completely avoided had I... felt empowered to kind of be part of the decision-making process. And that led me to, before I had my second baby, go on a bit of a discovery journey in terms of, you know, what it could look like. I discovered hypnobirthing and did my training with Catherine Graves Hypnobirthing in London and used that for my second birth, which was a game changer. That was the moment when I realized, oh my goodness, this is, This is how it can be. I mean, I had a, I was amazingly lucky. A two hour, two hour and 20 minutes start to finish labor. So very, very fast. But nearly didn't make it up to the hospital. And probably in retrospect, probably should have stayed at home. But I had the most amazing experience and the most amazing bonding experience with my baby afterwards. And I realized the impact then really of everything that had happened during my first delivery. So that has been cumulatively over the last few years, led me down a route of rediscovering myself firstly in a new country, firstly in a new phase of my life as a now as a wife and a mother in a new language, wanting to find, to carve out something that's my own. And that's where I've kind of been on my journey, getting to the point where I found it now today. my little company, my doula company, helping other expat parents here, helping them to not make some of the things, the mistakes that I think I made, helping to empower them so that they feel a little bit more informed on their journey. And yeah, just sharing the wisdom of what I've been able to learn, because I could see quite quickly that just some of the simple things were making a huge difference. So just understanding what the different hospital options are here in this new system, that kind of thing. And that here we have a wonderful system where you have included in your health insurance, you have up to 12 midwife visits at home after the birth, paid for by insurance, which a lot of people don't know about. So this is great support that's available for parents But unless you're kind of aware that you need to arrange it yourself, it may be something that can go missing. So I enjoy using my learning and my knowledge to help other people.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. Well, I do want to circle back to your mistakes. But first, is it more common that midwifery care happens? Or is it... a mix or is there like the, you know, bump up with high risk or what happens for the average birthing person? For
SPEAKER_02:the average delivery here, I think, I mean, it really depends where you are. I think where I am in Zurich and some of the other bigger cities, if you look at the C-section rate here, it's higher than it is in some more peripheral, more rural parts of Switzerland. The C-section rate in some hospitals in Zurich is up to 60%. And if you look at the kind of demographics here, yeah, it is high, yeah. The demographics, you know, we have a larger proportion of older, you know, birthing people and it's, yeah, there is a lot more kind of choice. So I think people feel like just because it's available and that the option to be in the top notch private clinic with a hotel like delivery room you know, if you have the insurance, then you should go for that and take your own doctor. And I think it comes down to kind of where you are, which doctor you have with you, because some of them have much more of a kind of preference towards, you know, elective C-sections, for example. But I think it, yeah, it's, on the whole, it's more medicalised than I think it needs to be. And in terms of midwives, circling back, sorry, to what you asked me originally, Yes, there is a high level of midwife-led care, but I find more often than not, it doesn't end with a midwife-led delivery. But, you know, the higher level.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that transfer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So it's just, it's interesting. But we do have also birth houses here. They're called Gabor's houses and they are completely standalone midwife-led units. And they're increasing in number, which is really nice to see.
SPEAKER_01:And these would be like the equivalent of a birth center in North America?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. Some of them are completely standalone. There's now a new one, for example, where I gave birth on the grounds of the hospital. So I recently did a birth there and I was with mum at the birth center all the way until... they recommended that she went into the, into the maternity unit in the end, but then it was a sort of, you know, two minute transfer, um, up to the hospital. So for some people having that reassurance, I think of knowing that there is the security blanket of the bigger system nearby, um, can be more of a, uh, an attractive, it makes the birth center more of an attractive option.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. And his home birth, where is it fitting in this equation?
SPEAKER_02:It's really interesting to get accurate statistics on home birth in Switzerland. It's relatively low, I think, less than, I mean, I'd say between 10 and 15%. And it is supported and paid for by insurance. So you can have a midwife in attendance. But it's what's very interesting is if I reflect on my initial entry into the system, home birth was never mentioned in fact my first gynecologist said to me I only do c-sections and at which point I knew enough or yeah she said if you want me at your birth I only do c-sections at which point I said well thank you very much for being honest I said I think I'm going to find another doctor um yeah
SPEAKER_01:um oh my gosh y'all my jaw's on the desk that is honest more doctors want to say that that they're like i will get you in my or but instead they're like for sure for sure let's try that walking epidural of course you can move of course yes pelvic birth for you and they're like sucker
SPEAKER_02:yeah no no and i think more of them uh um upfront about it I think there was a legal change here in Switzerland a few years ago from what I can understand and please don't quote me accurately on this but it changed the rules for OBGYNs who were going to be on call for birth that they have to be geographically at only a certain distance from wherever the birthing person that they had signed a contract with to birth with would be and I think for some doctors they said this is too constrictive you know But a lot of the OBGYNs, from my experience, are female. Quite a lot of them have their own families. And I know that that has been a sort of... You couldn't go and do anything. So if you were a doctor that's on call, the regulatory kind of framework changed to mean that you were constantly on call if you were signing up to have patients. So... Yeah, that has also had an impact, I think, on some doctors just saying, I'm only going to do C-section birth.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Well, then you had to move freely. Great. Great finding a loophole. Yeah. Care gets compromised for your freedom of movement.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. In these either birth centers or these hospitals, how common is water birth? Are there tubs or is it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. Yes. So in most of the maternity units here in Zurich that I have visited personally, and I think across the world as well, they're big on having lots of different options for birth and including being in the water. I'd say, for example, in my local hospital, I think five out of the eight rooms have tubs in them.
SPEAKER_03:So
SPEAKER_02:yeah, so that is definitely something that they are encouraging of. And they are also, you know, a lot of the midwives are trained in, you know, aromatherapy or acupuncture. And so they're able to offer, you know, things that go beyond the kind of standard medical midwifery care. And, you know, they are encouraged to do extra parts of training, for example, specializing in massage, for example, for labor. So it depends on who you get in which setting, I think, in terms of the experience that you have.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, well, that's, I think, the case for many hospitals globally or places to give birth. So you mentioned that you had some mistakes. What would you list as some of those mistakes that you discovered? system and and your um probably some of it was your education and getting prepared for day of
SPEAKER_02:yeah absolutely yeah i think i i think i naively walked into my first delivery thinking that doing a standard antenatal class was probably going to be sufficient in terms of which was by the way run by the hospital so of course it's going to be a just a small amount of bias in terms of how they want you to be and I think I thought that was enough and I've always been kind of medically interested so I was very aware of kind of you know birth and the process of birth and but I think what I didn't prepare for was the responsibility that I should be taking in the process of how I wanted it to pan out and So, for example, yeah, advocating for myself, also making the decision because I was in a, you know, living and, you know, living in another language, I wanted to have an English-speaking doctor with me. We made the decision quite early on that I wanted, that I thought I would feel more comfortable having an English-speaking doctor with me. So we booked our doctor and paid quite a considerable amount of money to have her presence at the birth and I went into labor on my due date and they called her for six seven percent yes absolutely as they they called her for six hours and she didn't pick up the phone and I think that was the kind of the major the major failure point in in the whole thing because I had done really well. Like I'd done my early labor at home and I got up to the hospital and I think I was about six or seven centimeters dilated. And yeah, and then it just all stalled because I went into kind of panic mode because I was like, my doctor's not coming. The person who I thought was gonna be here with me, that I'd have this, I guess it was a version of, what I like to do now, which is this continuity of care, someone that I built up a relationship with through my pregnancy that I was expecting to be there to kind of, you know, guide me through this momentous moment was not answering the phone. And I just, I mean, I went through all the emotions.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it slowed the labor down completely. In the end, we made a decision to actually just go ahead without her. And so we, At that point, the on-call team on the maternity ward kind of stepped in and were there to support me. But I ended up having a failed epidural. I was exhausted by this point because, I mean, having gone from being in, you know, I think nearly, very nearly in good active labour, everything kind of shut down. Otto was back to back. So I was having all of the kind of, oh, well, it's going to be slightly more difficult because he's back to back. I'm like lying there going, my doctor's not coming. Baby's not in the right position. This is not going how I imagined it to. I think I had an episiotomy that I don't remember agreeing to. And he was born with, eventually with one tooth. And I was in shock completely. I think my whole life, you know, system was just in shock and it is a blur. I think when you have your first baby, you know, it's an amazing, you know, rollercoaster of emotions, but I definitely think reflecting, there are several things that, you know, they're not being in the right head space or having someone with me that was advocating for me to say, is it okay that we cut you now? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which usually you get consent for that.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. And it's, you know, one of those things now in the kind of haze of what happened, they say I'm not sure because genuinely I'm not sure and my husband can't remember either. But I think what I remember is the phrase, we need to get this baby out now. And I think I remember saying, okay, you know, do what you need to do. And I think they then took that as consent for... Blanket
SPEAKER_03:consent.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So lots of learning from my first and lots of learning about also trying to, not only what I would do for the second, but also some of the anxiety and upset, putting that to bed so that I didn't take that into my second birth experience. And the hypnobirthing was fantastic for that. And having the chance to talk about my birth experience with the midwife at the hospital I made a point of going back up there and doing so yeah lots of learning and then I had you know my second was a very different experience as I said very fast but very positive and an amazingly calm baby who was just like it was an almost otherworldly experience as I really feel with my second baby like we have known each other before but he arrived and it was just he was just so thrilled to be here. And I thought, goodness me, I mean, this is the difference that it makes when everything happens, you know, in its own time, no intervention, just a midwife there. He arrived straight to the breast. I mean, he was like a heat-seeking missile. He knew exactly where to go. And it was just a totally different experience. So, yeah, I just thought to myself, goodness me, like, why don't we share this knowledge? This is, this is this kind of understanding of how it can be is not how it's depicted in the big wide world. And I especially, I think. Oh, sorry. Finished. Finished. No, no. What were you going to say? No, no. I just, I don't think it's how it's depicted in the big wide world. And I think, you know, birth doesn't have to be this huge emergency traumatic experience. And it can be actually very, you know, It can be loud, it can be quiet, it can be fast or slow, but it doesn't have to be this huge medical drama that often is depicted as.
SPEAKER_01:No, I couldn't agree more. And I always talk about in our MSP classes, the goal of a boring birth. And in the last session that just wrapped up, we had an expat in our class and she was saying like, oh, I love this concept of a boring birth. Like I love this boring birth. And I said, well, you have to go ask parents to see if like, if it has appeal for them. So she took it to a couple parent groups and asked various moms, like either folks that were pregnant with an hadn't delivered their first or had children already. And it was interesting to hear that it didn't resonate at all with pregnant people with primates who were pregnant with their first. But all the people who had had babies were like, oh, yes, I love the concept. Like I'd go to a class like how to get a boring birth. Like, let's get you your boring birth. But all the people who are pregnant were like, what? No. So it's funny even like trying to explain something to people who haven't experienced it And like you said, you felt prepared after your hospital-led classes. And then after, you're like, oh my goodness, I wasn't at all. And so the idea of this boring, calm, empowered, informed birth, you can't even understand what those concepts are until you've gone through it. So I'm really happy you got a redemptive birth. That makes my heart so happy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:yeah and he was also a rainbow baby so there was yeah so it was uh yeah it was a lovely experience with him and then I went into my third delivery also kind of you know with a kind of different perspective on it you know it wasn't um I knew it could you know I'd almost had the two I'd had the two sides of the coin I'd had the not so positive experience, the incredibly positive experience. And I knew that if I just let the process happen, I was going to be in a more likely situation to replicate what happened second time around. And that was what did end up happening until she arrived. And then she needed a little bit of extra help with her breathing. But the delivery itself was really, yeah, was really straightforward and also very quick. So yeah, lots of positive experiences. positive memories which I guess you know it's a hugely you know memorable moment in your life you never forget the day you have your babies and you only get to do it once and I'm so glad that I get to tell two very positive you know stories about my experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I bet having kind of that menu of experiences to choose from makes you a much better birth worker because, you know, you do have the whole gamut. So many people come into birth work because they've had birth trauma and they want to make sure nobody's had that experience or they've had a really empowered birth and they want to make sure everybody's had that. So it's really amazing that you've had both. So as a doula now doing care in Switzerland, how are you received? Is it common practice? Is it What's happening as far as the field of doula work and where your clients are living?
SPEAKER_02:So there is quite a strong network of Swiss doulas, the Schweizer Doulaverband, which is operating, and also another network of doulas who are all generally German or Swiss German speaking. And the reason why I came to Bebo Mia to do my training is because I knew I wanted to practice in English. I wanted to fill a sort of what I could make the offering here in Switzerland, which is to have to be an English speaking doula for people who don't speak German. Because I know what it's like to feel like going into a birth where you're not going to understand what's being said. So there's fewer of us. English-speaking doulas. There definitely are a few now, and it's always lovely to meet other people who are working in that kind of same arena. But we are... And I also am networking more with the kind of Swiss doula network. But the experiences in terms of... Uptake, because it's not paid for by the insurance, doula work is not paid for by insurance. So this is something that people, as it is in many places in the world, have to privately fund themselves. I think that is prohibitive to some people. Also, for example, for the postpartum period, it's something that I offer. I've worked in a previous life as a chef, and also done some mental health first aiding and also worked on super yachts, which is all in many moons ago. But I have a sort of strong background in the hotel services side of things in my skillset. So the idea of doing a postpartum doula, being able to go and take care of people, run a load of laundry, make them a chicken bone broth, you know, help just, you know, talk through their experience was something that I was really looking forward to. But what I found so far was, is that because people have this access to this paid midwife visit after the birth, they're less inclined to, you know, have a postpartum doula in that initial phase after they've come home. I think more so with second time parents,
SPEAKER_03:you know, it's
SPEAKER_02:almost like when you know, you know, and then when you realise with the second baby that actually if you've not got any immediate family support near you, having you know, for expats in lots of cases, when you accept family support, it's the kind of support that comes and moves in with luggage for two or three weeks. Yeah, I was going to say. Halfway across the world to be there. And it's there for six months. Yes. which can be great for some people, but for some people that, you know, you end up feeling like you've got a guest in the house and it ends up being more of a strain that it would be if you had no one there at all. And so for some people having this option of having someone coming in and being able to sort of help, as I say to my clients, I'm the kind of help that comes, helps, knows when to leave, and you don't even have to get out of bed when I arrive. Like that's how I try and bill it to them, because that's the kind of thing that, I definitely could have done with more of during my
SPEAKER_03:first
SPEAKER_02:few weeks with all of the babies. So yeah, I try to offer that to people. And if they want to take up the option, then it's something that we can add on. And it's always lovely when I've worked with people and being there to support folks through their birth and then we've built up the relationship and I'm able to come back and see them after they get home
SPEAKER_03:and
SPEAKER_02:see how they're adjusting to life and things.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and the midwife visits are very different services. Like, yeah, you'd have some of the mental health overlap and you'd have some of the infant feeding and like, you know, some check-in kind of questions, but to have a spare set of hands to make sure you don't have to get out of bed or that you have, like, I'm assuming the midwives aren't there throwing through your laundry and making you food. No, definitely not. I mean,
SPEAKER_02:it's much more of the, yeah, it's much more of the medical... Yeah, it's wellness checks. It's how are you recovering? How are your stitches? You know, how's the baby feeding? And it's very much a kind of, the midwife's coming at this time and you can almost predict that it doesn't matter if the baby's sleeping, the baby's going to have to be undressed and weighed by the midwife while they're there. So it can be a completely sort of disruptive appointment if it's not kind of, you know, at the right time of day. You know, you can never really predict that with a newborn baby. So yes, it's different to have... a doula, but I think there's lots of people that don't necessarily see that, which is maybe where I can help maybe work a bit more on the kind of communicating what it is that I actually do. Yeah, it's all useful stuff to reflect on in terms of how I talk about what I do and how I can help. But sometimes you don't know you need something until you've not had it. And that's why, like you said, with the second time parents, that's sometimes when you're able to make more of a contribution because they know what it's like first time. You've
SPEAKER_01:got all your mistakes, that 2020 hindsight. Yeah. So, you know, if you're preparing folks, well, actually, I think it's interesting both because I know a lot of people come to Bebo Mia with the idea that they do want to do some travel work, like be supporting folks in different countries, not necessarily as an expat, but potentially doing travel doula work. So what would be some of the like tips that you would give to a birth worker who's curious about working in multiple countries? Goodness me.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I guess starting with the insurance, getting very
SPEAKER_02:clear on policies and stuff. Yeah, getting absolutely up to speed on policies and finding out a little bit about what the health system kind of supports in terms of are they pro-physiological pathway birth or are they much more medicalised? And I think there's good information that you can get on that website before you even get there. Learning the language, I think this is a really important thing. This is something that I have found has made a huge difference. Being able to understand what's being said in German and Swiss German and then being able to act as kind of a translator to help improve the experience of the couples that I support. It's I've produced recently actually a free kind of language guide, which is some of the most common kind of birth terms in English and then what they are in German so that people have a kind of reference point that they can have with them. So that's something that hopefully people find useful. But other tips for working abroad? I think the language thing is important, not just the literal translation, but also cultural sensitivity, understanding the culture that you're going into, be that, you know, religious sensitivity or, you know, it can be very, very important. I know, for example, that I've supported expats here who have come from cultures where there is much stronger emphasis on this kind of family all coming together to kind of look after another after the birth. So I've been working with some lovely Indian couples who have got family coming from India to support them in the postpartum period. And that's something that, yeah. So informing yourself on kind of customs and traditions from wherever the person has come from because me being an expat here, I'm not just dealing with, you know, always people from the UK or, you know, or American people from America. I'm dealing with people who've come from all over the world and being able to kind of honor their, yeah, their cultures and their customs. It makes me able to kind of give them an experience that they feel more comfortable with. And, you know, one of the key things to having a, you know, calm and hopefully very boring birth is that you feel comfortable. So anything that you can do to help the birthing person feel more at home is going to, I think, enhance the experience for them, you know, during the labor, birth, and then afterwards as well.
SPEAKER_01:Do you find that there's lots of folks that come through, you know, the birth tourism? Is Switzerland a spot where people would... Because I know Canada has a massive... they would call it an issue with birth tourism. It's a desirable passport to have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's not something that happens here that I'm aware of. If you're born here in Switzerland, you do not automatically get a Swiss passport. So, for example, my children have got English and German passports because that's what we have as parents. And then they're eligible after 10 years of age. depending on the status of the parents and all sorts of other things. But generally, they are able to then apply for a passport. But unless you have a parent who has a passport from Switzerland at the time of your birth, you don't automatically get that status. Oh, wow. Yeah. Not an issue in the same way. It's interesting. I actually had a couple who I was working with who were going to be thinking about going to Canada who have their baby from Switzerland. And that was one of the kind of first times that I became aware actually of this kind of, this concept of people traveling. But I'm really interested in what you said about doulas traveling and going and working abroad. That's something that I've not really heard about. And it's something that is, yeah, it could be something really interesting to explore.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have some awesome, they're all, you know, 20 somethings living their best nomadic life. So envious when I listen, just salivating. But yeah, we've got several that are doing exclusive tourism, like birth they're traveling through and kind of like, here I come, I'll be in Costa Rica these months if anybody wants me. And then they're there for six months and then we'll be in Morocco for this many months if anyone needs me. Yeah, it's really cool. Amazing.
SPEAKER_02:yes
SPEAKER_01:I think my husband
SPEAKER_02:my husband might have something to say if I suddenly announced that I was disappearing off to Costa Rica for three months I hope you're smiling listening to this um but one thing I am one thing I am thinking about doing is um and this kind of concept of birth preparation and lots of people here seem to have this idea that you know going away and taking time out and having almost like a baby moon type thing. It seems to be very popular. And so I have an idea to kind of try and combine some of the learning and preparation aspects of, you know, getting ready for your bath with that kind of time away and having that in roving locations where we would be able to help them, you know, not only prepare for the birth, but maybe learn an extra skill or two, for example, batch cooking for your freezer, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. A functional baby moon.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. In a lovely environment where they also have time to kind of relax and be a couple. But it's so funny. When I met my husband, he said to me, you know, the Germans especially always like to come back from their holidays with a qualification of some kind. So I thought it could be something that appeals to the, you know, wanting to have a productive holiday. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see where that goes. But it's, you know, nice to be able to think of different ways to offer the services that I have to people that, you know, so that they can enjoy learning and have an experience as part of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a great idea. And I mean, I would love to know about some of what the division of labor conversations look like and in practice for Swiss families, because that's my current obsession, the lack of equity in family rearing. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I mean, Switzerland is many, many years behind lots of places in the world. I think there is definitely still a focus on a the focus that the man goes out to work and the mother stays at home and looks after the children. Just from a practical point of view, if you have children of school age here, the children come home for lunch in the middle of the day. In Germany and Switzerland, that's very common. So if you're a working mum, there are options that they can stay normally at the school and go to a lunch club, but this is not provided by the school. So the general setup is this idea that You know, mothers will be at home working, at home, you know, working, looking after the house and preparing the lunch, and then the children would go back in the afternoon. But even if you look at the maternity leave here, statutory is 12 weeks. And this is another thing that actually happened to me. I left my job that I had been doing in the lead up to my first delivery, had arranged with them verbally, It was a small family company. So I, again, learning, didn't think that I needed to have everything in writing. But boy, do I regret that now because I ended up giving birth and then going back for a kind of keeping in touch meeting at 13 weeks. And they said to me, oh, well, actually, the business has changed and we need you to come back tomorrow full time. And originally I had arranged that I would have three extra months unpaid leave and then go back part time. And within- Tomorrow! I know, tomorrow, you know, first baby, you know, breastfeeding 100%. And, you know, it was a bit like, oh my gosh, you know, but they are totally, apparently within their legal rights to fire you after the 13th week. But they didn't have the guts to do that. They just tried to make it incredibly difficult for me so that I ended up being the one that said, well, it's just not possible. So I'm going to have to leave. But yeah, 13 weeks of the statutory maternity, you can be got rid of. And there are innumerate stories from people that I know of, you know, how difficult it is to go back to work, back to your career as a mum here in Switzerland. There are these elusive part-time roles that are advertised, but they never often materialise into anything. It's almost from a... a PR perspective, they have to be advertised, but they are like gold best part-time roles. So there really is a huge amount of work that needs to be done here in Switzerland in terms of equity between the family set up. What's interesting is I've worked with some couples who are working here for big international companies like Google and Facebook and things, and they actually... companies are able to give better conditions to their individual staff. So they have a much more flexible policy and they also give a much more flexible paternity leave as well to their employees. So if you're an expat coming with a big company, I think you have some benefits that you maybe wouldn't have if you were here in the Swiss system. But I mean, I do, I laugh and I say, friends that it's almost like the swiss system is set up very well if you're a swiss person and you're living you know not in a big city with your kind of family all around you in the valley that you live you know and you've got grannies and aunts and people that can help with the child care and you know you go and work in the local shop which shuts at lunchtime so you can come home to cook for the children and then go back to work i mean this is how i imagine they perceive that the majority of people are living. And in a big city with a huge expat community, I mean, a third of the population of Switzerland is expat. It's
SPEAKER_03:huge. This
SPEAKER_02:is just not the reality anymore. And they're incredibly out of touch. And there's a lot of pressure from lots of different voices for it to change. So fingers crossed, it will continue to improve in the coming years. But right now, it's not the place that And I'd be like, you'd have a field day here, you know, with some of the things that happened.
SPEAKER_01:Does Switzerland do the same thing as some of the neighboring countries, Germany for one, where the second income is taxed just like unreasonably to encourage single income households?
SPEAKER_02:Not that I'm aware of. The tax rules in Switzerland are very variable depending on There's lots of different levels. I have to say I'm not an expert on this, but not that I'm aware
SPEAKER_01:of. You're not going to put on your charter accountant hat and be able to? No, no,
SPEAKER_02:no. Sadly, that's not a string in my bow at the moment, but not that I'm aware of. But there may be people listening to this that would like to correct me on that. So I'd be open to learning more. Yeah. but it's not something I'm massively familiar with. But as far as I know, it doesn't penalize you in that way. But there is lots of other ways that it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Encourages the moms to be at home, gently nudges them back into the home.
SPEAKER_02:And the other thing is childcare is extraordinary. I mean, if I went back, part of the reason why I wanted to do my work as a birth worker is is because I'm able to work more flexibly. I'm able to work around the fact that I am a mum of three, you know, still young children, seven, nearly seven, five and nearly three. So they're still, you know, little. Had I gone back to work full time, nearly my entire salary would go on the childcare to cover that. I mean, it is, you know, it is a reality for many women in many parts of the world that, you know, that the childcare costs are extraordinary. And especially when you're an expat and you're living abroad and you don't have that kind of family, you know, even if they're not actively participating in a daily kind of childcare role, you just know that you've got someone if the child gets sent home from the nursery because they've got a bit of a temperature. You know, I know that granny's not around the corner to come and help. You know, it's me that would have to come home from work and, you know, and be there. And so that is another huge, you know, pressure, consideration that that, as far as, you know, from friends that I know, that it's the mum that is the default person that would always, you know, come home to pick up the, you know, the child. So. And
SPEAKER_01:statistically, that's the case, even when said mum is the higher earning parent. person they are still the one to be like oh I guess I'm not going to the office or because I'm not in court today because I have to pick up
SPEAKER_02:oh my goodness yeah they assume that that primary caregiving role
SPEAKER_01:I guess that they are the person that yeah yeah regardless of income so I just think that is that is bonkers to me um yeah What are some of the differences of your role as a doula? I mean, you didn't practice. Did you practice in the UK? Have you supported anybody? No, I have
SPEAKER_02:never practiced as a hypnobirthing coach or as a doula in the UK. So I'm purely... My experience is here.
SPEAKER_01:And so would... you know, what would be some of the main differences that you find supporting expats as an expat than you would maybe what you hear from the Swiss doulas who are supporting exclusively in French and German? I
SPEAKER_02:think first and foremost that they come with a different set of preconceptions as to, you know, what the birth may look like depending on where they, I mean, it depends how long they've been living in Switzerland, but if they're kind of relatively freshly arrived, yeah, understanding how the system works. If you've not grown up in the system, that will be one of the biggest first things. Understanding how to get the best out of your insurance, you know, to achieve what you want for your birth. And then I guess, having that kind of go-between person, like I mentioned before, having the ability for me to be able to understand, especially in the birthing room itself, wherever that is, to be able to do a bit of that kind of lost-in-translation stuff can be very, very helpful. That is something that a you know, if an expat doula is able to communicate in the sort of predominant language of the country that you're in, and then also the language of the parents, or a language that the parents are much more familiar with, and that's one of the amazing things that I've realised about being, you know, growing up as a native English speaker, that us Brits are not good at learning foreign languages. We sort of take it for granted that the rest of the world learns English and does that very well, but having the ability to communicate. And it's not always just the differences in language, but one of the big things can be this non-verbal communication and understanding how to read different cultural approaches to language. So the Germans and the Swiss are notoriously incredibly direct in the way that they speak and they use language. which if you've come from the UK, for example, where, you know, we're terribly apologetic. The British are always apologetic for everything. Terribly sorry. Same as Canadians. Yes, absolutely. But the Germans are not. They're just like, you know, there'll be no sorry about it. They'll be like, just please do this. And that, you know, it doesn't matter how, you know, you might have a doctor that's speaking English to an English speaking, you know, patients but the way that they come across and the tone and the kind of environment that takes the importance that it the importance of the you know the use of language and understanding some of that kind of cultural difference in terms of how things are received can be huge so as an expat doula I think it's important to have a understanding of the implications and the impacts that that kind of verbal, non-verbal, and cultural implications of different styles can have on, you know, words. As I always say when I do my hypnobathing course, you know, words are the most, you know, powerful drug known to mankind. That's a quote from Rudyard Kipling. The words that you use with someone can make the difference between them feeling, you know, completely comfortable and relaxed, you know, or you could say the same thing in a different way and they, you know, can go... into a state where they feel completely unrelaxed and and they're worried about things so language is just so important um
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:throughout the
SPEAKER_01:whole that's why I spent three hours of MSP to kick it off talking about language and just because it it does matter um my partner who I moved to Nova Scotia with is half German and we laugh all the time about the Germanism, like all the things that you're like, why would you ask that as a question? Just make the statement. I want three drinks. And you're like, but we'd say, could I please have three drinks? They're like, you direct me like, Ooh,
SPEAKER_03:yeah,
SPEAKER_01:that would, that would be hard. And I mean, especially when you're in places. So in Canada, the provinces dictate their own medical. So that's kind of like, we have 10 different locations. nations and the three territories that all have different, um, Like our medical is not a federal thing, it's provincial. And so even just moving here from Ontario, now being on the East Coast, I found it was so different. And I'm already, even though this is my country and I speak this language, just the practices and the policies and insurance and it's so different. And I didn't realize how unprepared I was until my last client who was a surrogate. And I'm very familiar with all the surrogacy laws in Ontario. They're completely different. Just as like an example, like how long you stay, what's your eligible for, like everything is completely different here. And so I found it was surprising, let alone going to a different country when it's a completely different language. I fortunately got to keep it all in English. But yeah, it's as a birth worker, if you're working within different communities and countries. There's a lot more prep than I think one would know before they jump into this.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And the other thing I should absolutely mention is that, you know, I've mentioned Swiss German and German several times, but there are four official languages in Switzerland. They speak French in the French speaking part down in Geneva. Then in the eastern part, it's German. In the southern part, bordering Italy, they speak Italian and Ticino. And then there is the Romanish language that is spoken by very few people, but it's still recognized as a official language. So we have, you know, one country and four different languages. Yeah. So, yeah, there's lots of... Doing your research, I guess, if you're going to go and operate in a new country in terms of what the policies are, what the, you know... what the kind of modus operandi is for the kind of medical system you know how how do they operate you know is it individual doctors attending birth or do people go you know what the you know the c-section rate it's really interesting in certain hospitals here can increase depending on the doctors that are on call and if you look at you know um and Yeah, I guess it's just a case of informing yourself as much as possible and speaking to other birth workers who are working there. You know, I sometimes initially when I kind of started out my journey doing my kind of birth working and being a doula, I was a little bit reluctant about reaching out to other doulas because I thought, OK, well, they are, you know, they're doing the same thing as me and we're kind of, you know, in competition. And actually, I've realized that it's hugely beneficial to kind of reach out and make connections with people. Yes. And, you know, we're passing work back and forth to each other. We're, you know, we're supporting each other. And even just to have, you know, I met an amazing lady who's doing expat birth work here in Zurich. last week for coffee and just being able to sit down with someone I know that you're very big on mentioning this on the MSP course but this idea of having peer support because what you do as a doula is incredibly emotionally taxing on you as an individual and I know for example you know I've attended births where it felt like I was looking at myself in my first delivery And coming away from that experience, you know, you're wanting to make it different for the person that's there that you're supporting. And sometimes you can and sometimes you can't make a difference. But not only are you giving, but you're also continually going on a kind of reflective journey in terms of my experience, both becoming a mother, but also, you know, how you can manage your energy levels so that I'm able to kind of support people, but I'm also able to come home and still be mommy who is needed by three little people. And also, you know, a wife who, you know, is here, you know, as a team working with my husband and things, but it's finding that balance is tough sometimes and doing actual birth, you know, you can be there for a long, long time and you come home and you feel all the emotions. I mean, it's, Excitement, tears, exhaustion, and it takes a little bit of time to come down. So having the ability to speak to other people who are doing the same thing and just know that you're not alone is so important in the place that you're in because when you understand the cultural specificities, the geographic kind of things that are maybe more specific if you're operating somewhere different. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I mean, everybody who just listened to that, like the takeaways are building that community, doing that collaboration, sending clients back and forth who would be a better fit. Like once you get into that flow, you can accomplish so much more as a unit, as birth workers and in your area. And we've had some really great guests talk about this. If you check out last season, we had the founder of the Nevada Doula Project and the Doula Co-op. And it was, you know, they've done incredible things because they came together and created change in favor of what we would want for doulas, which is not more regulation. It's actually more freedom and recognition and a higher value assigned to the role that we play as in Financial. Well, all of the ways. Higher value, but also higher remuneration. So, Hannah, you also do online care. So folks can reach out and get some digital support from you. Tell us about that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So there's a huge thing you can do in terms of hypnotherapy training. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:wait, wait, wait. You cut out. Hold on. Hold on. I don't want it to be choppy for you. Hold on. I want this part to be very clear.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:it's crackly. Do I sound crackly to you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Let's see. Try, flip your audio just from that to something, like go back and forth.
SPEAKER_02:Put these away.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, that's perfect. It's not crackly.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, we'll go with that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so start your answer about virtual care again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so there's plenty of aspects of the services that I offer that can be delivered online. virtually and that can be anything from the hypnobirthing course right through to helping talk people through options for places to birth. I even did a session with a friend of my brother's, well, my sister-in-law actually, who lives in New York and kind of she was feeling out of her depth in terms of the choices that she had to make. And I was able just to be a person to sort of sit and listen to her thoughts and what she found out. But I also did some research in terms of what her options were that were available to her. So despite the fact that I've never worked in New York before, I was able to spend some time with her and she came out of that session feeling a little bit more prepared, you know, with some tips and tricks, you know, silly things like do a dry run going to the place that you're going to give birth, know where to park, know, you know, know where the nearest, you know, grocery store is because you might want to send your partner out to get something, you know, little practical things like that, that until you've done it the first time round, it's difficult to know that, you know, you might need that kind of knowledge up your sleeve. But so yeah, distance coaching can be something that is, is really helpful. And I'm also a really big, proponent of postpartum kind of planning in terms of we all seem to get very kind of focused on the birth itself and actually the postpartum period and preparing for that in lots of ways can be even more important I think you know what happens when you come home after you've you know had the baby so
SPEAKER_01:it's many days and weeks and months longer than the big day
SPEAKER_02:absolutely absolutely and so Going through that in terms of self-care, practical tips of organizing your home. I always say to my clients, I said, you need to prepare your home like it's a ship going to sea for about three weeks. So I want you to have the food full of freezer, the food full of freezer, the freezer full of food. I want you to make sure that you know how to call in, you know, take out or have laundry powder so that you don't have to you know dash out you know prepare yourself with the very practical things because then that leaves you more headspace to focus on all of this kind of newness that comes with being a male parent
SPEAKER_01:that unpredictable
SPEAKER_02:yeah absolutely and you can focus on that rather than actually have to having to think about the kind of practical stuff. So there's a huge amount of preparation that you can do ahead of time for the postpartum period. And, you know, practical things like, you know, knowing what to expect if you decide to, you know, to chest feed, to breastfeed, you know, things that you can prepare ahead of time. And so all of that can be done remotely, can be done anywhere in the world. And so if you're, if you're someone who's looking for that kind of support don't feel you have to just look in the country that you're in you know if you're a parent looking for support or if you're a doula out there you know you can offer services to more folks you know because a lot of this is it's not geographically specific it is transferable wherever you are and it can be you know a service that you offer far and wide to people by being able to do it virtually
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. So you mentioned you have your freebie, which is the translation, common English terms into Swiss German, as well as the virtual services. What's the best way for people to get their hands on either one of those things?
SPEAKER_02:So you can visit me at my website, which is www.HannahLouiseMaternityMentor.com. You can also follow me on Instagram. So I'm HL Maternity Mentor on Instagram. And I'm always open to meeting people for coffee. I'm a big coffee fan. So I say to people, no obligation, but let's just go and have a coffee and a chat together and find out more. So if you're in Zurich listening to this and you want to meet for a coffee, I know lots of good spaces around the city and always, always delighted to go meet you people and have a chat.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. And we'll put all of that in the show notes so that everyone can get a hold of Hannah really easily with the click of a button. And if they have any questions, you guys can reach out to Hannah again through the website or through her Instagram channel. And just ask. Anna, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm so excited. You will be one of our first kickoffs for the new season. And if anybody wants to either explore getting care or is curious about providing expat care, you can also reach out. Thank you so much for being on the Hot and Brave podcast. We're a huge fan.
UNKNOWN:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast. podcast.
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