Are You a Slave to Lust? | A Bunny Hugs Podcast interview with Todd Rennebohm & Jeremy Lipkowitz

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This episode is a rebroadcast of a conversation I had with Todd Rennebohm on the Bunny Hugs podcast. Todd runs a mental health show that isn't afraid to go into the territory most podcasts avoid, and this conversation went deep.

We covered my personal story from the beginning. How it started innocent enough, looking at lingerie catalogs as a kid, and slowly escalated over years into a daily habit that was quietly rewiring my brain. By college, I was logging on every night for an hour, sometimes two. And even though my life looked great on paper, I felt completely empty inside.

In this episode we talk about:

• The moment I realized I was a slave to lust, and what it actually felt like from the inside
• How porn hijacks the dopamine system and why the "hunt" is more addictive than the content itself
• The realm of hungry ghosts, a Buddhist concept that perfectly describes what addiction feels like
• Why porn addiction is uniquely hard to break free from compared to alcohol or substances
• How I went from PhD student at Duke to Buddhist monk to meditation teacher to recovery coach
• Why the shame-based, willpower-driven approach almost always backfires
• What neuroplasticity actually means for your recovery, and why it's good news
• How to meditate without falling asleep (and why falling asleep isn't actually the problem)
• AI companions, escalation, and where all of this is headed

This is one of the more wide-ranging conversations I've had. If you're new to this work, it's a good place to start. If you've been around for a while, I think you'll still find something in it.

00:00 Empty Chase

00:50 Meet Jeremy

01:37 How It Started

03:15 Daily Habit

04:59 Control And Coping

06:07 Brain Rewiring

07:15 Novelty Escalation

09:20 Seeing The Future

11:10 Hungry Ghosts

13:33 Neuroplasticity Lust

15:10 Gratitude Training

18:29 Desire Vs Craving

20:31 Meditation Skills

23:11 Tech And AI Risks

24:57 Is It Ever Good

27:14 AI Companions Dystopia

28:30 Moderation Debate

28:37 Moderation vs Abstinence

30:11 Ethics of Porn Industry

33:02 Why Porn Hooks Dopamine

37:15 Rock Bottom Realization

42:43 Finding Happiness Through Mindfulness

46:09 Non Shame Recovery Approach

50:11 Meditation Basics That Work

54:02 Grounded Not Woo Woo

54:49 Where to Find Jeremy

55:26 Final Wrap and Support

Check out Todd's show, Bunny Hugs, at bunnyhugspodcast.com

Resources mentioned:

Unhooked Academy: unhookedacademy.com

14-Day Slip Reset: unhookedacademy.com/reset

Connect with Jeremy:

🌍 Website: JeremyLipkowitz.com

📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremylipkowitz/

🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JeremyLipkowitz

📩 Email: jeremy@unhookedacademy.com


Jeremy’s Online Course: Unhooked – Step-by-Step Guide to Quitting Porn: https://www.unhookedacademy.com/

Transcript

 Hey guys, welcome back to the Unhooked podcast. Today's episode is a conversation I had on the Bunny Hugs podcast, a mental health podcast hosted by Todd Rennebohm. Todd's show covers real conversations about the things people struggle with but don't always talk about, and he invited me on to share my story This conversation gets into a lot of territory. We explore my personal journey with porn addiction, how it started as a kid flipping through lingerie catalogs and escalated from there, and the moment in my early 20s when I realized I was enslaved by lust We also get into the neuroscience of why porn is so hard to quit, what the realm of hungry ghosts has to do with addiction, how I went from PhD student at Duke to Buddhist monk to meditation teacher and recovery coach, and why I think the try harder to quit approach usually backfires. Todd is a great interviewer, and I think you guys will get a lot out of this one. So without further ado, here's the episode

 There was only this feeling of I don't have what I need, and I'm empty, and there's a void inside of me, and I'm not happy, and I'm not satisfied unless I can get that thing. And the lie there is, you know, even if I got that thing, I still wouldn't be happy. And it's-- it was this constant chase of just never feeling fulfilled.

And I realized in that moment how much I was a slave to that feeling of lust

Are you chasing after something that never seems to satisfy? Jeremy is a recovered porn addict, and as such, he now helps others who struggle with porn addiction. So what did porn addiction look like for Jeremy and others, and why is it so destructive? And what helped Jeremy to turn it all around? And be sure to check out Jeremy's podcast, The Unhooked Podcast

You know, I basically, I, I do, I work with men who are struggling with compulsive porn use. So what I call myself, I don't know. I, I go all over the place with the, what I call myself. But yeah, coaching is the main tool that I use. 

How did your porn addiction kinda start? 

Well, well, so I got into it, you know, as, as most young boys do, just kind of getting curious about sexuality.

You start to see a few images here and there. Um, you know, for me it, it didn't start with porn. It started with things like the lingerie catalogs that would come in the mail. I remember, you know, the Victoria's Secret catalog would come in the mailbox, and that just... Y- you know, it's so interesting, just looking at those pictures did something to my body that feel- felt good.

And so I learned kind of at an early age that if I saw, you know, i- images or pictures of, of women in lingerie or scantily clad, like it made me feel good. And so it just slowly evolved over time as the internet became more accessible, more available. Started to be able to download images and actually get into real pornography, and it just kept growing from there.

You know, by the time I got into high school and then college and started to get these tube sites, and over time it progressed, uh, to the point where it was a daily habit in college. 

Uh, how old are you? 

I'm 39, turning 40 soon. 

I remember being a kid and looking at, it was Sears catalog- Yeah ... before Victoria's Secrets.

It was like- 

Yeah ... um- Sears, JCPenney, Macy's. I mean, the, the lingerie section in the back of the catalog was, was the place to go. 

I, I've talked to a guy who was like p- I mean, this was a quite a ways back. He's also... He does the same work that you do. I think he mentioned at one time, like it was like eight, nine hours a day sometimes.

Fortunately, I, you know, it was never, um, it never got to the point where it was that bad for me. For me, it was, it was a daily habit, so every night I would, you know, go into my room and lock my door, and it would be probably at least an hour every night, and then occasionally it would get up to two hours, maybe three on occasion.

Um, there were maybe some very rare days where it might be multiple times a day for a couple hours at a time, but it, it never went into these marathon kind of eight, nine-hour sessions. Um, so I feel very fortunate that it never got that far, but it was, you know, it was a daily thing for a couple hours a day, so it definitely had an impact on, on my hardwiring, on, on my brain, and all the kind of neural pathways and dopamine systems.

Yeah, dopamine's a pretty, pretty intense thing. I'm, uh, just recently diagnosed with ADHD, and now I know a lot of people with addictions are neurodiverse. Is that the case for you? 

Um, I, I've never been officially kind of diagnosed with ADHD. I would say that I You know, it's a little bit of the chicken or the egg thing.

Like, did, did the porn make my attention kind of scatter and, and make it hard for me to focus or- 

Or hyperfocus ... 

m- yeah, or hyperfocus at times, right? Um, or is that part of my genetic makeup? It, it's kind of hard to say. There are times when I can focus really well, and times where I, I feel it's very hard to stay focused.

But I wouldn't say that I'm, you know, a, a poster child for, for ADHD. I, I'm not kind of on the extreme end of it. Uh, for me- 

Right ... 

it was really more just what it was giving me in terms of making me feel like I was in control, and feeling validation and, and pleasure and, you know, escaping some of the negative emotions that were there, like loneliness and insecurity.

All the things that young boys can deal with, porn was my way of coping with it. 

How, uh, what was that sense of control like? How did you get that through porn? 

Yeah, I mean, porn, it's, it's a lever that you can y- y- you know, you can push. You can... You have a lot of control of when you feel pleasure and when you feel negative emotions, and if negative emotions are there, it's a very reliable way to suppress those negative emotions, because it pulls you out of that.

You escape those emotions temporarily. I see. And so in that sense, it was, you know, a feeling of control, of, okay, I can- 

Like self-medicate, kinda ... 

exactly. Self-medicate, self-soothe, you know, find a way to escape these emotions that I didn't really know how to deal with or how to sit with. 

And, and how does porn, or how did porn for you anyway, h- um, change your hardwiring?

Yeah, that was one of the biggest insights for me that eventually caused me to decide to stop watching, was realizing how it was screwing with me long term. And so one of the, the key ways that it was doing that was making me very perfectionistic or have very unrealistic expectations of what I thought my partners should look like.

Because every time I engaged with porn, and again, this was from the age of around 10 until, you know, 23, 24, 25. I was watching every night, logging on for an hour or two, looking at what I thought was the perfect body. And so over time, my brain started to expect what I was seeing in porn to be normal and attainable.

And so I had these hyper-unrealistic expectations of what women's bodies should look like, and it started to make me feel less satisfied with real partners I was having in real life. Um, you know, became more picky, more superficial. Uh, and so that was one of the, the big ways it started to screw with me.

But the other, you know, really kind of interesting way that I started to notice is that one of the consequences of, of porn addiction or just compulsive porn use is that you get addicted to novelty. And so the thing that gives you the hit of dopamine, the thing that makes you feel good, is seeing something new or something different.

And so over time, you know, it didn't even matter if what I had was perfect. It was just I needed something different. I was never satisfied. You know, I, I could never go back to the same video twice. It was, "Okay, I need to find a new video, a new girl, a new scene." And over time, my brain was starting to associate pleasure and satisfaction with novelty And the key insight for me was realizing that if I wanted to be in a, a, you know, a happy, long-term committed relationship, that was impossible if I was finding my happiness in novelty, that they were essentially incompatible.

So that was one of the kind of the ways it screwed with my brain. 

Well, when you say with the novelty, would that also... Would you, uh, like not just only look for different women or different scenes or different whatever? Would you sometimes like bump up the extremeness of the porn? 

Like, would it escalate?

Yeah. Um, so that kind of search for novelty can take many different forms for different people. For some people it is escalating in terms of the, how extreme the content is, and that's where they can get into more and more extreme or more taboo, you know, things that are even illegal. Um, for n- for me, it never...

It didn't necessarily go there. There were m- little bits of it, noticing like, oh, okay, I'm looking for something more extreme to get a bigger hit, but it never got into some super dark territory. But I could see that that was the path that I was heading on, you know, that, hey, if I stay on this path for another 10 years, 20 years, it's only going to keep escalating and keep getting worse.

And so I just saw that, okay, maybe I'm not there right now, but if I keep going down this path, that's where I'm headed. Like, one of the biggest turning points for me was I had this moment of... Uh, you know, I had this kind of, uh, insight, this, uh, situation that happened that caused me to really reflect, and I saw my future.

I saw where I was headed, and I saw myself as this creepy 70-year-old dude who was hitting on girls at college bars. And I realized that, like, that was the future that lay in front of me if I keep engaging with porn in this way, that I was always gonna be hunting for something new, something different, and I would never be satisfied.

And so seeing where I was headed was, you know, something that really... It, it made me feel afraid of my future a- and that fortunately, it provided me some fuel to get my shit together. 

So now you'll just be the creepy guy checking out other 70-year-olds. 

Exactly. Yeah. Which i- yeah, you know, it's like, um, that would be a, at least a preferable future, but ideally, you know- It's appropriate

it's like I don't want to be... Yeah, it's appropriate. Um, but, you know, I, what I realized what I wanted was- To learn how to appreciate what I had, to learn how to go deeply into, you know, a committed relationship and not just be looking for, okay, what's next or, you know... A- and I realized it wasn't just my sexuality, it wasn't just porn.

That kind of behavior was in all the different aspects of my life, that it was never good enough. Whatever grades I got, it never felt good enough. Whatever, you know, academic achievements, whatever physical sports achievements, even if I was at the top, it didn't feel good enough, and I was never satisfied.

And so that was one of the key insights that porn was creating this condition. You know, sometimes we talk about the realm of hungry ghosts. Have you heard of the, the realm of hungry ghosts before? 

No. 

So it's, it's fascinating. It's, uh, one of the kind of analogies or stories that really, um, made an impact on me.

So in, in Buddhist philosophy, there are these different realms of existence, and they're not real places. Like, they're not like heaven and hell, like, oh, this is a place that you go to. These realms of existence are really more manifestations of the mind. They're kind of like different mental spaces that we can inhabit.

So there's a few different realms. There's the, the heavenly realm, where everything is just pleasant all the time and everything feels good and, you know, pleasurable nonstop. There's the hell realms, where everything is just painful and suffering and misery. There's the human realm, where it's kind of a mix of, of both, and there's the animal realm, where it's just primal kind of animal, uh, urges and primal instincts.

And then there's this one really interesting realm called the realm of hungry ghosts, and what it is, it's this realm with these creatures that have massive bellies, these huge stomachs, and they have tiny pinhole mouths and needle-like throats. And so they wander their existence, and they can never eat enough to satisfy their massive hunger.

So they live in this constant state of hunger. They, they never feel satisfied because they can never eat enough to satisfy that hunger And that's what my life felt like, is like no matter how much porn I watched, no matter how much academic success I got, no matter how much physical success I got, nothing ever felt good enough.

Nothing ever really satisfied me, and I lived in this constant state of craving for more, and it was a, a very miserable way to live your life. 

Was that craving from some kind of trauma, or was it nature or nurture, or was it just... Or do you know? 

Yeah, it's a bit of both. I mean- 

Yeah ... 

naturally we are hardwired to, to seek.

You know, as humans, we, we have a drive to seek better and more. Um, but my... The way that I engaged with porn from an early age put that natural inclination on steroids. You know, it, it took that natural human desire to, to seek something better and to look for something, uh, more, and it kind of put it on steroids.

And that's, uh, the other real insight for me, was around neuroplasticity and understanding that what we do with our thoughts and our attention actually wires the brain. And there's this one phrase, "Neurons that fire together, wire together." And I remember that made such an impact on me, 'cause I realized that every time I engaged with lust, every time I logged on to porn and was looking at videos in a lustful way, I was hardwiring that neural pathway of lust, which is wanting something that I don't have and craving something I don't have.

It's a natural state of dissatisfaction. It's not a natural state of appreciation or gratitude. And so I was hardwiring those pathways of looking for something that I didn't have and craving something I didn't have, and those became the superhighways in my mind. You know, wherever I went, I was just filled with this, "I need something more.

I need that. I need this. I'm not satisfied." Even though I had a really good life, even though I had, you know, again, academic success and friends and lovers and all this, I didn't know how to appreciate what I had. 

It's like the grass is- 

Yeah. The grass is greener on the other side. 

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I've, I've had therapists tell me that.

But yeah, that grass is always greener thing is like, well, why don't you just appreciate what you have right now? Just chill out, man. Well, 

and that's exact- Like, one of the, the things, like, that I realized is what I really want in life is to be happy, to be... to have a sense of, of inner peace and inner fulfillment, right?

That's what we all want. I think I know where you're going 

with this. Yeah. Yeah. 

Well, like, gratitude is... That's like, if you can't be grateful, you'll never be happy, no matter how much you get. Right. You could have all the sex in the world, all the money in the world, but if you have zero gratitude, you have zero happiness, zero inner peace or inner fulfillment.

And so, you know, this is where kind of Buddhist philosophy really, you know, sp- I sparked an, an interest in Buddhist philosophy, is a lot of Buddhist philosophy is just about training your mind in mental qualities that lead to happiness. So for example, training the mind and cultivating the mental qualities of gratitude It's like, oh, you can actually train yourself to be more grateful.

Hmm. There, and there are so many other mental qualities that we can train, like self-compassion, or patience, or, you know, equanimity, or being of service. Like, there are all these things that we can cultivate that directly lead to a greater sense of happiness. And so if we wanna be happy, why not cultivate those things that lead us there, you know?

It's, for me, it was very logical. Like, my background's in the sciences. I've always been a scientist. But when I started to learn about Buddhist philosophy, it's really just a science of the mind and a science of studying what mental qualities lead to happiness and which mental qualities lead to suffering, and cultivate the ones that lead to happiness and stop cultivating the ones that lead to suffering.

Making it sound too simple. So you looked at a complicated religion and went like, "That's realistic. That makes sense." 

It was like a light bulb moment where I had always been kind of, uh, had an aversion towards any kind of religion, just 'cause, like, I didn't wanna believe in some higher power, you know, all this stuff.

But when I started to just- I wanna be in 

control even though I'm miserable. 

Yeah. I just didn't have, you know, a belief in a higher power, so I always thought that all religions, you kind of had to believe in that. But when I started to learn about Buddhism, I realized it just made sense. It was very science oriented.

It was, hey, if you wanna understand your experience of reality, you have to look at the way that your mind is functioning because all of your experience of reality is coming through the filter or the lens of your mind. And if you're always looking at what you don't have, you're gonna be miserable. 

So lower your standards, everybody.

I- 

in some sense. So it's interesting. That's where it's not so... You know, you say that I'm making it sound simple, and there's a lot of really tricky nuance, which is like, you don't have to lower your standards, but it's a very fine line to still have standards, but at the same time learn how to appreciate what you have.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

It's a delicate, delicate balance. 

And I mean, I know, I, maybe we're not really talking about porn addiction, but all of it's entangled. But I, I'm kind of having that trouble with finances right now. It's like I'm, I need to make more money. I'm not making enough 'cause I wanna redo my kitchen. I wanna do this and to the point that I'm, like, miserable.

Mm-hmm. And I've talked to my therapist, and I've brought up Buddhism. Like, how do I s- how do I get rid of that attachment for finances? And sometimes finances are a serious issue, y- you know? So there's that fine line, too, of like, you know, as long as you have enough to live and you're paying off the house and your car's running, then yeah, I'm just spinning my own tires.

Yeah. No, no, no, it's, it's a... I, and I think actually this is a great thing for us to talk about because it also relates to porn addiction, which is a lot of people have, are on two ends of the extreme, which is, "Okay, I wanna just have it all, and, you know, I just wanna want and want and want," or, "Oh, I need to just give up completely and be completely non-attached and be, you know, a monk in the forest," and those are the only two options.

But the reality is we, like, we don't have to give up our aspirations or our desire. Like, desire is not the enemy. This is a really important thing also related to porn addiction. There's nothing wrong with desire. There's nothing wrong with wanting more money and to be financially stable so you can do the things you want to do.

There's nothing wr- wrong with desiring to sleep with someone. The problem is the addiction, the craving, the feeling that I need to have this thing, and if I don't have it, I'm not okay. 

The 

obsession That's the thing. It's the obsession, the way that our mind gets constricted or hooked or just, "Oh, I need that thing, and if I, if I don't talk to that girl, I can't be happy.

If I don't have sex with that girl, I can't be happy." And we become, you know, enslaved by this feeling of I need to have that, as opposed to saying, "Oh, I, I would like that. I have an aspiration to have more money. I have an aspiration to go talk to that person and connect and potentially have sex." It's an aspiration or a desire.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's the, the way it imprisons us or enslaves us and causes us to do things against our higher selves, you know? If we lose ourselves to that craving. 

That does sound very reasonable. 

Right? It does. Yeah, it's... Like all of this is reasonable. It's not like you have to, you know, go and be some...

I like, I did go spend time as a monk, and that was, you know, for me- Oh ... something that I was very interested in. So you're telling people you 

don't have to do that, but you ... 

Yeah. Like, "I did it for you." But you don't have to. Yeah. Yeah, I did it for you. I learned the lessons, and now, I mean, the, you know, so I started teaching meditation 15 years ago because it made such an impact on me and I wanted to come back and teach people what they actually needed to know about meditation as opposed to some of the fluff that wasn't important.

Hmm. 

You know, because meditation is, as it, it's very reasonable. It's, it's a science of the mind. There's a logic to it. And you don't have to become a Buddhist. You don't have to believe in reincarnation. You don't have to, you know, chant or anything. But you do have to learn how to observe your mind and how to understand what's happening in your mind and how to work with some of the forces of the mind, and that is what's important here.

Become the observer. 

Yeah. And not just the observer, also, like, learning how to engage skillfully with it because it's not this passive, "Okay, I'm just gonna observe and do nothing." Sometimes what you actually do have to observe first and then say, "Okay, I'm noticing this. How do I want to act in this moment?

You know, how do I wanna move forward with, with wisdom and skillfully? Do I wanna talk to this person? Do I wanna click on this website? Do I wanna-" pursue that, that money because it's gonna make a difference in my life? And sometimes the answer is yes. But the intention that you do it with, you know, you can do it as a slave to that desire, or you can do it as the rider of the chariot saying, "Okay, let me go forward skillfully."

'Cause you're sounding a lot like my therapist. 

Well, a lot of what I do is, is, is that kind of work, so. 

Just, you just word it differently. 

Yeah. 

But yeah, she's basically saying the same thing. It's like, do, do you want to podcast for money and, like, be miserable 'cause you're not making it? Or do you just like podcasting?

What's your intention? It's like, well, I, I love making the connections, I love helping people. Well, then don't worry about the fucking money. Just do it for way, way you like it. 

Exactly. Yeah. Well, and that's, again, it's a highlight. It's like, oh, maybe in some way I'm enslaved by this craving for money. And it's the same with porn.

It's like, what are the ways that I'm enslaved by this desire for sexual satisfaction? 

Mm-hmm. 

Whether it's porn or, you know, masturbation or, you know, sex, dating apps. You know, it's a, it's a huge spectrum now. It's all kind of intertwined and interwoven. Like, the, the boundary between porn and, you know, softcore porn or thirst traps on, you know, and then dating apps, and then actually just dating and, and like, like there's so much overlap between all of it.

Mm-hmm. And you can get addicted to any of it. 

It is all intertwined, uh, 

all the stuff and- Yeah, and it's getting, it's getting worse with, um, you know, how much more ingrained our technology is becoming in our life. I mean, just imagine if you were seven, eight, nine years old and you had a cellphone, and every night when you went into your bedroom you could access Pornhub or Chaturbate or Dating apps or any of the stuff that's on the web these days.

I mean, it's- 

Yeah ... 

kids are growing up with this now, and so it's becoming even more of a serious issue because at a very young age, they're getting very hardcore content. 

And then throw AI in there and you really do have control. You could just say, "I want exactly the prompt you- Yeah ... you wanna see," and- 

Yeah, AI porn, m- and then also AI companions, AI girlfriends.

I mean, people are, you know, they don't wanna take the risk in, in real life and go talk to a real human and so instead, you know, they're opting for an AI girlfriend. And so that's a whole big messy situation as well. You know, I just did a podcast on this the other day. It's like one of the reasons you should consider quitting porn even if you're single, and the, like the last reason I gave is just the fact that, like it's only gonna get harder and harder to quit the longer you wait because we're on the cusp of it becoming just incredibly...

It's already very addictive. Mm-hmm. But with the rise of AI, it's just gonna get more and more addictive. It's gonna be fine-tuned and tailored to exactly your preferences and your algorithm, and the longer you wait, the harder it's gonna be to quit. 

I- is there any way that that stuff is good for some people?

Or do you think it's all just n- 

Porn or AI companions or what? 

Yeah, porn and AI in the way that's going. Do you think it's gonna be, there's gonna be some people that it's really beneficial for? 

Yeah, it's a very, it's, it's a complex topic. Um, I don't come from the camp of like, oh, porn is sinful or evil, so I, I kind of am more liberal, sex positive and, and a little bit more agnostic about it.

What I would say is that for some women it seems to be a benefit. You know, s- women can definitely get addicted to porn, but also some women have kind of maybe a healthier relationship to eroticism, um, whether it's porn or erotic literature, and it can maybe open up their sexuality and, and it can actually benefit.

Yeah, well, well and for women it's, it tends to be much more storyline focused. Um, as opposed for men it's- Yeah, romantic and- Yeah. It's more about the characters. But for men it's very much just visuals, you know. Um, what I would say though is that I'm a bit more agnostic for women. That being said, some women definitely can get addicted and can cause serious consequences in their relationships and, you know, all kinds of issues.

But for men, almost universally it seems to cause more harm than good. You know, very rarely do I meet a man who it actually benefits his life and the benefits outweigh the harms that it's causing. And there is, you know, for all men, there's the obvious benefit of it provides distraction. It provides stimulation.

We have to be honest about the fact that there is that benefit The problem is there are so many consequences that most men don't see, and so they don't know how to weigh the two options because they say, "Oh, well, it just, it makes me feel good. You know, I, I get to relax." But they don't actually notice the consequences of that behavior because it's, it's not a direct kind of obvious relationship for some of these things.

They're things that are maybe a few steps removed. They're more subtle. They build up longer term. So it's not like if you drink tons, the next morning you wake up with a hangover. It's not as obvious as that. But a lot of these harms and the ways that it impacts your relationships, your intimacy, your focus and concentration, brain fog, the time that you waste, there's all kinds of things that, that it can take away from your life.

One other thing that you asked is like, uh, you know, is any of this good? And you were also kind of asking about AI companions. You know, clearly there are some benefits to having AI that you can ask questions to. You know, you can say, "Hey, I'm kind of struggling with this." And a lot of... almost everyone I know uses AI now as kind of a s- a therapist.

"Hey, I'm struggling with this. What should I say to this person?" And AI can come up with some genuinely helpful ideas sometimes. The problem is, is that if we become too dependent on that to the point where we prefer that over real relationships, you could see a scenario, kind of a dystopian future forming, where because it's easier, it's less risky, it's not as vulnerable to talk to a human, um, we become more and more removed from real human relationships, uh, and just overly reliant on our AI companions.

And so there's a lot of dystopian futures that lay ahead of us if, if we're not careful. 

It's too much right now. Between all the bombings and everything Epstein files and AI, I'm just like, "Oh my God." Uh- Yeah ... maybe I should just go live in the woods and- 

Just give up. 

Masturbate to bears having sex. 

That's one way to, to survive the apocalypse.

Yeah. It, it sounds like all things in moderation. The- 

Here's the, the... Just a little side note on that, you know, all things in moderation. I would say there's a, there's a caveat to that, that, yes, all things in moderation, and sometimes you have to make the judgment call to say, "I can't moderate this," and it's, "I'm better off saying no completely rather than trying to moderate."

It's like me and alcohol. 

Exactly.

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For people who, you know, have addiction issues Knowing the things you can moderate around and knowing the things you can't moderate around is really important. And so for many of the guys I work with, moderating around porn isn't possible, and it's just be- you're better off saying, "You know what? I just...

Rather than taking the risk of trying to moderate with this, I'm just gonna say no completely, because my life is better off if I just have kind of a black or white rule around this that, no, I don't watch porn." And we haven't even gotten into the ethical, you know, questions of- Right ... of the porn industry and the harm that it causes.

But a lot of guys don't wanna think about that, or don't even know that it's something that they should think about. But there is a lot of... There are a lot of ethical questions that if you are engaged with watching porn, you are supporting an industry that exploits people, causes a lot of harm, is, you know, intricately intertwined with sex trafficking and all kinds of horrible things.

So that's a whole nother- Like revenge porn 

and- 

Revenge porn. Yeah, all that stuff ... I mean, child pornography, people getting stuff that was recorded when they were in high school put on without their consent, all kinds of things. 

Yeah. Good point. Thank you for that. Um, uh, have you worked with some men that were able to go from, like, a problem drinker to a social drinker again, uh, but with porn?

You mean, like, to moderate around it? 

Yeah. 

No. 

No. The guys you work with, it's like, it is abstinence basically o- once they're in recovery. 

Um, yeah, although the word abstinence, like, I think has a lot of baggage around sex negative and kind of like this, uh, you know, like, oh, cut yourself off from sexuality and, um- 

Well, abstinence of porn, I guess

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I, I never, I don't even really... I just don't use that term because I think- Hmm ... you know, part of the recovery process is this fine balance of learning how to celebrate your sexuality and embrace healthy sexuality, while at the same time saying no to things that cause harm. And so i- it is kind of like a, for most guys, the, the skillful way forward is just to say, "I don't wanna watch porn."

I don't, I don't say you have to. Like, the clients I work with, I don't say, "You can't watch porn, and that's the position you have to have." I... My kind of role is to get them to be curious about their life an- and to have more self-awareness of how is this impacting your life? How do you feel when you engage with this?

How is this impacting your relationship? And what do you want to do? Like, what would benefit and serve you in the long run? And almost all guys I work with come to the realization that, "My life is so much better off if I just say no to this." 

Yeah. It... I, I don't know anyone that's ever regretted getting sober or, like, stopped using drugs.

Yeah. It's not like, "Oh my God, that was so stupid. What was I thinking? Why did I stop? Why did I stop?" 

Yeah. It's the same with porn. You know, I've, I've said the exact same quotes. Like, I've never met anyone who regretted the decision to give up watching porn. 

I wonder too, like, with part of the addiction of it, like the novelty wears off and all that too, but I- if sometimes it's, it's almost like gambling.

It's like the, the thrill of the hunt to find the perfect vagina or the perfect- Mm-hmm ... whatever it is that you're looking for. And, and so then there's boom, that dopamine hit too, and there's so many reasons it is addicting now that w- I'm sitting here talking to you about it and thinking about it.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's incredibly addicting in terms of the sense of engagement and the sense of the flow state that you get into, and that's why you can have these eight-hour sessions because you're just so... Y- you forget to eat or drink or go to the bathroom because you're so engaged in this hunt for that promise of reward just around the corner.

And that's what, you know, a lot of people actually don't understand this about dopamine. Dopamine, the peak of dopamine is highest just before you get the thing. It's the promise of the thing just about to come that gives you the highest hit of dopamine. And that's why when you're on a porn, you know, let's say you're on on some tube site, you're scrolling through, when you have the idea that, oh, with one more scroll, maybe I'll find that perfect video, dopamine is highest.

You know, you type in your search term, when you hit enter but before the results come, y- that's again, dopamine is highest because you have this excitement of, oh, what am I gonna get? It's the slot machine, the exact same thing. You pull that lever, and it's when you pull but before you see the results that dopamine is highest, and that's what keeps you locked in the hunt of, you know, c- going for hours because you become addicted to that hunt, that feeling of surprise.

It's not the actual thing that you get that, that gives you the highest dopamine. 

But I mean, eventually, after about three hours, you've seen all the porn there is on the internet though, right? 

I wish that were true, but 

Yeah, I wonder how long it would take to sit and watch all the porn on the internet 

I mean, I remember th- like five years ago hearing that, you know, there were more porn sites on the internet than non-porn sites.

Oh, I remember 

hearing that too. You know, just think about that. It's like there, there is no possible end to it, and that's one of the other reasons it's so addictive. I talk about this, that let's say you're addicted to sugar and, and eating is the thing that you're addicted to. At some point you can sit down with a big mountain of Snickers in front of you and you can start eating and it gives you some, you know, dopamine.

At some point you physically cannot eat anymore. You become sick and you can't fit anymore. So at some point physically there's a limit to it. With porn, every new video can give you that hit of dopamine, which is why you can sit there for hours and hours and hours because there's no physical limit because it's all in the mind.

It's a substance that comes in through the eyes And so you can sit there and every time you search for a new video, you get another little hit. 

That's true though. Like even gambling, like you run out of money eventually- 

Right ... 

or you run out of credit or whatever. 

Yeah. Or with alcohol sometimes, you know, you go unconscious.

But with porn it's... That's why, you know, people go on these marathon sessions. It's, it's actually, in some ways it's very similar to video games. People also get very addicted to video games and some of these ones where you go on these, these quests or these adventures and, you know, and it's always just one more mission, just one more level, just one more, just the next boss.

And you can just keep going because it's that constant flow of, of 

dopamine. Was there like a m- a, a pinnacle, pinnacle? Is that a word? Pinnacle moment. 

Pivotal? 

Sure. Fuck. I don't know. My, my meds were off hours ago. Um. 

Was there a, was there a pivotal pinnacle that I pivoted on? 

Moment that you were like, "Oh God."

And I think I, I... You kinda said at the beginning there kinda was a moment where you were like... But was it... Do you remember the exact moment or, or was there like one of those exact moments where you were like, "Oh shit"? And then how did you go from there to helping others? 

Yeah, the pivotal moment is something I, I remember very clearly 'cause it was a, it was a semi rock bottom of my life.

You know, I've had many different experiences of, of what we might call a rock bottom, but it was a moment, a real turning point, and kind of an existential crisis. And to make a, a, a long story short, essentially it was this day when I was in my early 20s. You know, I was in college. I had just finished my undergrad, but I was sticking around my university doing research.

And again, my life was good. I had good grades, a lot of friends, I had lovers. Um, and I remember walking down the street one day. It was blue skies out. Life was good. And I was in a college town at the time, and in front of me were these two college girls, you know, walking down the street, maybe freshman or sophomore.

And I remember seeing their behinds and just being so consumed by this feeling of lust, this objectification, this feeling that I needed to stare and look and, you know, I needed to talk to them and I needed to sleep with them, and just this big consuming feeling of lust started to arise within me. And in that moment it just felt like this emptiness inside of me Where I just felt like if I don't have that, if I don't talk to them or get with them, whatever, I can't be happy.

And in that moment, I was ignoring all the good things in my life. There was, there was no sense of deep contentment like, "Oh, my life is good." There was only this feeling of I don't have what I need, and I'm empty, and there's a void inside of me, and I'm not happy, and I'm not satisfied unless I can get that thing.

And the lie there is, you know, even if I got that thing, I still wouldn't be happy. You know? But the, the lie that kept me enslaved is, "Oh, if you go get that, then you'll be happy." And it's... It was this constant chase of just never feeling fulfilled. And I realized in that moment how much I was a slave to that feeling of lust.

You know, I would remember that I would wanna go to a cafe to sit and read a book. Like, I was really... I, I liked studying and reading, and I would go to a cafe and sit, and if an attractive person walked by, I, I felt like I had no control. Like, my mind just needed to look and to objectify and, you know, check her out.

And I was such a slave to my lust, and I realized I don't wanna be a slave to this forever. And that's when I started to realize these things about the neuroplasticity and lust being a state of suffering, and if I stayed on that path, you know, I would just end up some creepy old dude hitting on college girls And so that moment was a big existential crisis 'cause it made me realize, hey, I have everything I want.

I'm a good student. I have friends. Life is good. Why am I not happy? 

And I think that's, I think there's a lot of people that are listening and going like, "Well, I check out girls." You know, like, it's human nature to, like, if a attractive woman walks by while I'm in a cafe to go, "Ooh," and check it out. What, what's the difference between what you did and, and what is human?

Yeah, the difference is that, you know, for some people they... A- and this is true for me, that feeling is a consuming feeling. 

Gotcha. 

You know, it's like this tunnel vision. I can't focus on what I want to focus on. I need to check out that, and I am not in control. I need to look. 

Serial killer thing where it's like 

Yeah, a little bit.

It's this, you know, kind of like, "Oh, I need that," kind of, uh, that thirst- Mm ... that craving. And that, like, inherently, that mental... You know, again, it's a realm of existence, like the, you know, the kind of the hungry ghost, the realm of the hungry ghost. It's a state of suffering. In that moment of looking and lusting and craving for that thing, you're not in a state of abundance, a state of gratitude, a state of inner peace.

You're in a state of, of lack and suffering and dissatisfaction- Mm-hmm ... thinking that, "Oh, I don't have what I need." Because a lot of guys will experience that. You know, they see some attractive person. The desire for an attractive person is, there's nothing wrong with that. 

You can appreciate an attractive bum.

Yes. But it's what gets added on top of that, which is, "Oh, my partner's not good enough. If only I had a partner who looked like that. Maybe I should leave my partner, and maybe I need to go find a, you know, a younger partner or..." It's all the ways that it spins out of control and makes us unsatisfied, dissatisfied with what we actually have.

Mm. 

Okay. That's where the problem comes in. And a lot of guys will recognize that, that feeling of comparison of, "Oh, if only I had a partner like that, maybe then I'd be happy." 

For a little while. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Well, that's the thing. The mind doesn't remind you of that part. Like, oh, yeah, you'll be happy maybe for a day, and then you'll get accustomed to that and just want something new again.

But the mind leaves that part out. It just wants you to go on the hunt. 

Did you seek help, or w- did you kinda do it yourself? 

Yeah. So back then, you know, this wasn't really a topic. Like, now there's a lot more There are many more resources about porn addiction recovery and, and porn addiction even being a thing.

But back then, nobody talked about it. It wasn't a thing that was, was out there. 

How long ago was that? 

This was in, like, 2010, 2010. 

Oh, okay. 

16 years ago. Yeah. So when I had that existential crisis, you know, fortunately, I got curious about this question of happiness. Like, is happiness even possible? Is anybody happy?

Will I ever be happy? And so I went to the bookstore and started looking at books on positive psychology. Uh, I realized that people were studying this in a scientific way. And through that exploration, I ended up finding this book called Happiness by Matthieu Ricard. And it's a book written by... He's now a Tibetan monk, but he, he grew up in France and was a molecular biologist and ended up becoming a Tibetan monk.

And so he wrote this book that really brought together Western science and Eastern philosophy. And that book just fundamentally changed my life because it totally opened up a new avenue, a, a new kind of understanding of what real happiness actually was. You know, I'd always thought that, oh, if I just have more pleasure, more validation, more sex, more stimulation, then I'll be happy.

But w- after reading this book, it started to make me realize, oh, real happiness is in how you relate to what you have. It's in things like compassion and patience and contentment and- 

Connection ... 

connection, love and kindness. You know, those things actually lead to happiness. Um, and so that got me really interested in Buddhist philosophy.

I ended up traveling to India, started going on meditation retreats, spent some time as a monk. Yeah, I started to really kind of take seriously meditation and, and mindfulness, and that became so important in my life. So when I got back to the US after traveling in India, I started teaching meditation. I ended up going to grad school at Duke, studying genetics and genomics, and while I was there, I just started teaching meditation to other graduate students and undergrads just for fun.

Mostly as a way to keep myself accountable, you know, to make sure that I was still meditating. I started offering morning meditation sessions. Um, and I realized a few things. One, I realized I was good at teaching. People were coming to me and saying, "Wow, I finally understand what this meditation stuff is about."

And two, I realized that I was very passionate about it. I... It felt very meaningful to me, and I realized it was more meaningful for me to teach people about meditation than it was to do the science that I was doing. So I ended up leaving my PhD program and started teaching meditation full-time. And then a few years later, started shifting more towards one-on-one work and doing coaching, and eventually realized that, hey, a lot of the people I'm working with also are struggling with porn addiction.

That's what got me interested in meditation. Maybe I should talk about my own journey. And so I started talking about my own journey with, with porn and how that got me into meditation, and a lot of people just kind of reached out and said, "Hey, I'm so glad you're talking about this. You know, I struggle with this," or, "My partner struggles with this."

And I realized there was a huge demand for it. It's, it's something that affects so many people, but we just don't talk about it. 

Yeah. I wonder how many people are struggling and they don't even realize they're struggling, you know? 

Yeah. 

Or they don't even realize the, the collateral damage it's doing.

Right. Because it's very normalized in our society as well. People think, "Oh, it's just porn. Everybody watches porn. You know, what's the big deal?" And so a lot of people don't realize that it could actually cause harm, again, because some of the consequences are subtle or long-term, downstream, you know? And so a lot of people are unaware.

And there's other people out there help- you know, other men doing the work you're doing, but it's different. Their practice is different or their treatment's different. 

How is my approach different? Yeah. Yeah, what I'll say is that there, there are a lot of people in this space, but a lot of them come from a religious, faith-based background- 

Ah

where, you know, this is kind of like s- watching porn is a sin and, you know, you gotta get right with God in order to, you know... And that's just not my perspective at all, and s- 

Just causing a different complex now. 

I would argue yes, but, um, there, there are some people who do it really skillfully. You know, there, there are people out there who I really, who do come from a faith-based background, but they, they do it in a really skillful way, and I think they're, they're doing great work in the world.

Um, but I will say that I think the kind of shaming of sexuality causes a lot of harm. And so one of the ways that I like to approach this is, uh, non-shame based, you know, no judgment. You know, we're celebrating sexuality, but we're learning how to have a healthy relationship to sexuality rather than suppressing it or shaming it And also in my approach, you don't have to have any belief system.

We're, we're open. You know, pe- there are people in my group who come from all different faith backgrounds, um, but it's not a central component to the recovery work that I teach people. You know? It's you could be whatever religion and the work is the same. It's a lot about self-awareness and mindfulness and accountability and connection and all those things.

Uh, is there 12-step groups? There must be... I'm sure people use the 12 steps all the time for any kind of addiction- Yeah, yeah ... I suppose. 

Yeah, yeah. There's, uh, Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. There's a lot of, uh, kind of 12-step groups that are oriented towards sexual addictions. Um, but again, the 12-step group, you know, it's primarily a faith-based, you know, the higher power at least, and for myself and for a lot of people, that just doesn't work.

Um- Okay. 

Totally agnostic? 

You mean in my program or in 12 step? Yeah, 

yeah. In yours. 

Yeah. Yeah, and people will argue that, oh, even in 12-step, you know, it's just a higher power and you're, you can make your higher power like love or water. Um, but there's still just a lot of religious language in it that is very off-putting to, to people like me or people who just kind of are more allergic to that.

Um, the other big difference in, in 12-step- 

You could take antihistamines for that. 

Yeah. I, I have tried. There's nothing I can take that makes me non-allergic to, to religion. Um, even, even in Buddhism, there are aspects of, of Buddhism that I'm allergic to because it's too kind of culty religious, uh, stuff.

But what I will say is the other thing about 12 steps is there are certain aspects of it that the, the biggest one being the powerlessness, uh, kind of the I am an addict, uh, the identity around being an addict is something that I don't personally believe in. You know, for me it's... it keeps you locked in that prison of thinking that you are powerless against this thing and you're an addict and you're always gonna be an addict.

And for me it's- It's counterproductive and, you know, for me it's more about learning that, hey, this thing doesn't have power over me, and I'm not an addict. You know? I'm someone who has learned a unhealthy coping mechanism, but this is not a, a, a life sentence, and I can learn how to break free from this.

And so those are some of the other differences between my approach and kind of 12-step approaches. But I'll say 12 step works for a lot of people, and if it works for you, go for it. 

Uh, it worked for me in early recovery, and then COVID hit and meetings stopped and I was like secretly, shamefully, I was like, "Okay, good.

I don't wanna go to meetings anymore." Everyone's different, everyone's, like I said, nature, nurture, everyone's trauma's different. You can't compare and recovery and treatment isn't cookie cutter for everyone, so whether it's addiction or anxiety or whatever you're treating. So, but yeah, this is, this has been really fascinating 'cause I've been thinking about doing more mindfulness stuff, more meditation stuff, and I, I was at one point, and then I, I started, like, just falling asleep all the time and I'm like, ugh, I'm just, uh...

Like, I would dread it 'cause I was like, I just know I'm gonna fall asleep and then I'm not gonna get anything done, and then I'm gonna beat myself up 'cause I fell asleep and, uh, and then... For someone that wants to sit and, and get into meditation again or start meditating, what, what's maybe the most important thing they should do or focus on while they're meditating maybe?

Here's the thing is so many people have heard, oh, meditation is helpful and it helps you deal with things better and it'll calm you down and less stress and all this. And so many people try it and feel like it doesn't work because of all kinds of things, like they fall asleep or their mind is still busy or they can't shut off their thoughts and, and so, so many people come away from it thinking, "I'm just no good at this.

It doesn't work for me. My mind is too messed up," whatever. And a lot of that comes down to just not really understanding the way to practice meditation and having misconceptions about what it means to have a good meditation session or how to approach it skillfully. Like, as the example, being sleepy in meditation is fine.

If you fall asleep completely, that's also fine. It just happens to a lot of people. The point is not that you have to sit down and the first time just be totally alert and no thoughts and all that, you know? That just doesn't happen. The point is to start to observe, you know, how your mind actually works, and if it's sleepy, to just be, "Oh, okay, I'm sleepy right now."

And that's kind of more skillful meditation than trying to stop the sleepiness. Same with thoughts. People think, "Oh, I sit down and my thoughts are just all over the place, so I can't meditate." You don't have to stop your thoughts. Thoughts are not the enemy. In fact, you can't really stop your thoughts.

Thoughts come and go on their own The point is to be the one who observes the thoughts. And so if you're having crazy thoughts, it's okay, you know? But if you can start to access that space that is aware of crazy thoughts while the crazy thoughts are happening, you're gaining access to something much deeper.

And so what I would recommend for people is actually finding some kind of system, whether it's an app or an online course or a meditation center or a book, that teaches you how to meditate correctly. You know, it's like if somebody said, "Well, how do I learn to fish?" You wouldn't say, "Just go to a river and hold a stick above the...

or go to a, a lake and hold a stick above the lake." And you would say, "Talk to somebody who knows how to fish. Learn what you need. Learn the correct tools." There's an art and a science to it. Same for anything that you're trying to learn, whether it's basketball or fishing or yoga or podcasting. You know, you actually can learn how to do it correctly, and that'll make it so much easier, and the same is true for meditation.

So find a course. I have a course online, Mindfulness Made Easy. It's why I created it. Nothing to do with porn. No, I created this before I kind of got into the porn work, uh, because again, for, for most of my career, I was just teaching meditation. Um, but there's a million others, Headspace, Calm, Happier.

There's so many apps out there, so many online courses. Um, you know, to, to actually have a growth mindset and realize the first time you sit down to meditate it's not gonna go how you think, but that doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. 

So it's progress, not perfection. 

Exactly. Meditation training is you're becoming accustomed to this vast inner world that most people go their whole life without ever realizing how to access.

And so deepening in your meditation practice is learning how to more easily access that vast inner world and how to walk more skillfully in it. 

And then I can transcend levels and, I don't know, I've been listening to weird podcasts about, like, the real woo-woo shit. 

Well, that's the thing. I, I'm very allergic to woo-woo shit as well.

Okay. It's, it's like s- I'm a meditation teacher, but, like, you know, it's like there's... This is the thing. It's like my style of meditation, my style of recovery, it's for the people who just want a scientific kind of grounded practical approach to recovery that doesn't require them to get into 3D consciousness or astral projection.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there, but for a lot of us, it's just like, I just want to learn how to live with integrity and not be a slave to these compulsions, and I don't want to go chanting and have to do crazy shit. 

So, uh, is there anything you want to, want to, where, where to send people for anything or whatever you want?

Yeah, I mean, if the, the best place is if any of this conversation kind of spoke to you and you want to learn more about it, check out my podcast, Unhooked. I mean, we, we, as we've gone today, it's, it's about porn addiction, but it's not. It's about just kind of the mind and understanding yourself and all kinds of, of stuff related tangentially to that.

Thank you to my guest today, Jeremy Lipkowitz. If you would like to find out more about Jeremy, his coaching, or his podcast, please go to www.unhookedacademy.com or go to the show notes for this episode. Please rate and review Bunny Hugs and Mental Health on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you are listening on.

Please follow me on Instagram @bunnyhugspodcast and on Facebook, Bunny Hugs and Mental Health. If you enjoy the podcast and my guests, please go to buymeacoffee.com and under Bunny Hugs Podcast, you can leave a one-time or a monthly tip. Any amount is extremely appreciated. You can find all my links in the show notes or at www.bunnyhugspodcast.com.

Until next time, please remember to make your beds and take your meds.