38. Ending the Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse

Curious about what truly defines narcissism beyond the casual use of the term? Join us for a captivating discussion with Dr. Eleni Toumarides, who unpacks the origins and clinical implications of narcissism.

We delve into the various types of narcissism and explore the common misconceptions that often surround this complex personality trait. Dr. Toumarides brings her wealth of expertise to the table, helping us understand why so many people find themselves entangled in relationships with narcissists, especially those influenced by childhood experiences and narcissistic parents.

0:01 Understanding Narcissistic Abuse and Characteristics

14:09 Identifying and Addressing Narcissistic Abuse

22:25 Recognizing Signs of Narcissistic Abuse

37:40 Healing From Narcissistic Family Relationships

46:20 Parenting and Healing From Narcissistic Abuse

56:09 Destigmatizing Narcissistic Family Relationships

Dr Eleni Toumarides offers the message that healing from narcissistic family relationships is possible, and it starts with recognizing the long-term impact of your upbringing.

Tune in to get the full episode!

You can find out more About Dr. Elena Toumarides' work at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleni-toumarides-phd-lcsw-58560247/
email: elenitoumarides@gmail.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

into the zone of narcissism, right Narcissism and narcissistic abuse. A little reminder of the term narcissist and the origins of it from Greek mythology, from the story of Narcissus. So the young, handsome man who fell in love with his own reflection in a pool of water, unable to tear himself away and eventually wasting away, dying, leading to the term narcissism to describe excessive self-love and self-absorption. But now, since then, the term has evolved to describe personality disorder, and that's why we have Dr Elena Dumarides here with us today to dig into the topic of narcissistic abuse and to just basically untangle. We hear this word narcissism all the time and it's thrown around lightly and sometimes more judgmentally. So we want to look at the difference between that as a term, but also what narcissistic abuse is and what it isn't.

Speaker 2 0:57

So welcome again. Thank you so much for having me again. I'm sorry it took so long. I wish I could have come earlier. I love talking.

Speaker 1 1:05

Me too, me too. I just want to say, for the people that haven't heard, where Elena, I'm going to call you Elena because I can't call you doctor. Yes, please, where Elena. That's just weird. You dug into the topic of trauma and that had a lot of response and a lot of people resonated with different parts of that. So if you haven't had a chance to listen to episode 16 on trauma, go back. There's so many valuable insights. First of all, a little bit of background. If you can just share with us what brought you to working with narcissistic abuse, something about your background, those that might not know.

Speaker 2 1:39

So, narcissism is something that has become very popular in social media and you know people use the term very loosely. But the one thing that I really want to start with is that it can look different in different types of people and that there's different types of narcissism, and it's not necessarily what we think of when we hear the term, right, usually when. Well, I'll ask you what do you think when you hear that someone is a narcissist? What comes to mind?

Speaker 1 2:13

Yeah, I think. Self-importance, self-absorbed, lacking empathy, very little ability to understand and read a room maybe as well, and generally just quite harsh with people. Black or white, yes, yeah, that's my first impression.

Speaker 2 2:31

Yes, and that is what most people think of when they think of the narcissist right, this sort of like grandiose, larger-than-life personality that is just self-involved and is showing self-love all the time. Throughout my work, however and this is something that I really didn't pursue I stumbled upon by chance and I became very interested in it. I started working with, I started working with adults that found themselves in relationships with people that displayed narcissistic characteristics and I'm saying displayed, because I've never met the people, so I can't diagnose someone I haven't met. Or they find themselves in working environments with narcissists, specifically bosses, and obviously that can be very difficult to navigate. When somebody is your boss and you know these people would come in and start talking and basically were just tortured day in and day out, not really most of the time, not placing blame on the other person, but finding fault in themselves.

Speaker 2 4:00

I began to become interested in learning why somebody would choose to be in a relationship with a narcissist, and I know people oftentimes say I don't choose them, they choose me, but we know that that's not the case, right.

Speaker 2 4:25

There are certain patterns, there are certain characteristics that we're attracted to, certain things we feel we need to reenact and we go for the person, and so I kind of took a backwards approach.

Speaker 2 4:42

Right, you're coming in with this, you're in this relationship. I want to understand why you're choosing this, because if I don't understand why you're choosing it, then I can't help you and I can't in this situation. What I did notice is that many of them had mothers that displayed these characteristics, that displayed these characteristics, and it was never the patient coming in saying to me my mother is a narcissist ever. But I started noticing the patterns, the characteristics, what was happening in their childhoods, what was continuing to happen into their adulthoods, and when I would suggest that maybe the parent was a narcissist, they would immediately become very upset and shut me down and say, no, I love my mom, she is amazing and she did the best she could. I understand that sometimes it can feel harsh to hear somebody, especially a stranger, say that, and so I began to look at what they were like so I can explain to them how their childhood affected it.

Speaker 1 6:20

What they were like, the person that was coming to you, not the parents right yes. And why Well, the parents right yes, and why?

Speaker 2 6:25

Well, yes, right, because I don't know the parents. But I now know the characteristics of the kids who had parents that way, and I specifically say mother, but oftentimes the father in these relationships displays the characteristics too.

Speaker 1 6:41

Okay, we'll define those characteristics later Okay.

Speaker 2 6:49

So the one overarching thing that we would see is the mother would often make everything about herself. So anything that the child did was a reflection of the mother. How can you do this to me? How can you behave in this way? What will people think of me, Right?

Speaker 2 7:18

So there was never any sense of you know, let's talk about why you did this. You know what was going on for you. What do you need from me? It was like the child's experience was completely cut off and it was all about how what they did affected the mother, how the mother felt, how the mother was seen. And so the child then in turn never learned that maybe there's something they could be doing differently, not understanding what's right or wrong and simply blaming themselves for not being good enough. And so the seed is planted. Then, If I were good enough, I would not be happy. If I were good enough, then she could love me. But, and when you have that deficient feeling coming from your parent, it's hard to believe that anyone could ever love you, and it's hard to believe that anyone could ever be happy with you. And so most people not all, but most people go on to find themselves in relationships where they are made to feel not good enough.

Speaker 1 9:12

Could this also be that you've experienced that and you've become the narcissist?

Speaker 2 9:17

Yes, there are situations where narcissistic parents then have children who also display narcissism as well. They don't tend to be the ones that come to therapy, but it is interesting that the ones that are experiencing the abuse because they are gaslit so often yeah.

Speaker 1 9:45

We can define gas. I think yeah.

Speaker 2 9:48

They'll come in and say I think I'm a narcissist, I think it's me, I think I have that quality Right. So they, they do have that doubt in themselves and you know, once we start working through it, then we can. Then they begin to understand that that's not the case. But you know, in general these are individuals that carry a lot of self-doubt.

Speaker 1 10:17

Okay, so let's go to again a little bit deeper into the key characteristics of narcissistic abuse then and some misconceptions after that.

Speaker 2 10:25

so we'll start with the key characteristics so let me so some of the things that I see right or that they tell me about. That starts to like gets my alarms ringing is they are people who feel guilty or uncomfortable saying no to others.

Speaker 1 10:48

This is not the victim let's say we would call it victim of narcissistic abuse. Is the one that comes to you, yes, or the survivor?

Speaker 2 10:55

Yes. So they are the people that tend to feel guilty when saying no when it's in their best interest.

Speaker 1 11:05

When saying no, when it's in their best interest.

Speaker 2 11:07

Okay, because right from the start, they learned that it's not about them, it's not about what's in their best interest, it's about the mother's need, right? So they are the people that put their needs to the side. At the same time, along with this, they have a difficult time voicing their own opinions when it goes against what the other person is saying Because this is just something that causes so much self-doubt that they don't feel that they should, or that they have the right to, or that they're even right, okay, so the self-doubt manifests in different ways with different people, sometimes when they find out and they do when they start thinking about the idea that you know this person wasn't just and that it wasn't their fault.

Speaker 2 12:01

Right when the doubt is so deeply rooted in them, they'll still think could this person have really been that bad, or is it me just creating this? Okay?

Speaker 2 12:12

and that is, you know, so deeply rooted into the idea of who they are and the fact that they've spent their adult lives usually with other people that treated them the same way as the parent did and reinforce these ideas. It makes it even harder like, but it wasn't just her, wasn't just my mom, it was all these other people, so maybe it's me. Okay, so this is like the very beginning of it and that's what we're seeing. Okay, so, as a result of all this, of course, they go on to be very giving in relationships, always being there for everyone, not expecting, expecting or asking for anything in return, mostly because they don't feel they deserve anything in return and that their satisfaction just comes from giving.

Speaker 1 13:15

And this is the trait we admire in people Like when we see someone like this as a giver. They are praised for this. Not that it's a bad thing to give not to label it as bad but sometimes this is praised and glorified, and what we're not seeing from what you're saying is where this is coming from yes, the idea of selflessness is admired. Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:36

Yes, which of course makes it even more challenging than to think that I need to do something different Because you're right selflessness is very admired in this society.

Speaker 1 13:55

So where's the difference between the selflessness that is pure, let's say from a place of good intent or not feeling guilt, and the giving part to the part that's motivated subconsciously by this narcissistic abuse or whatever you've gone through as a child?

Speaker 2 14:09

Well, I think then the question to ask is why do I do what I do? Does it make me happy and are my needs?

Speaker 1 14:22

being met. Can you repeat those questions? Why do I do what I do? Does it?

Speaker 2 14:26

make me happy and are my needs being met? Because typically, they are doing all of this, but their needs aren't being met because there's nobody asking them what their needs are. There's nobody to listen to what their needs are and they don't feel they're entitled to them right. Nobody asking them what their needs are. There's nobody to listen to what their needs are and they don't feel they're entitled to them right. They just spend their time in life trying to be a better person, to be good enough to be lovable.

Speaker 1 14:55

Can they reach that point where they get to the point? With work they can get there right? So there's someone who's listening, absolutely.

Speaker 2 15:02

Absolutely. I have so many success stories, so so many stories, and one of the most beautiful things that I've gotten to witness throughout the years working with individuals like this, who were able to create the boundaries with the parent and be in healthy relationships, is to see what incredible parents they've become.

Speaker 1 15:26

So it's actually shaped their parenting, it's actually what has contributed to them being better parents, and so they can actually thank the experience for it, right, yeah, so what are some misconceptions then about narcissistic abuse that need to be clarified before we dig in deeper to understanding this? More Misconceptions people have about the topic, about narcissistic abuse, so that they're not just labeling every kind of rude behavior or selfish behavior as the person is abusing me or whoever you know in this way.

Speaker 2 16:00

Yes, I mean there have been situations where I've seen people who will start to try to talk to their parents or talk to their partners being told oh, you know you're just making excuses. They're basically being treated the way they've always been treated, that what you feel doesn't matter. This isn't true. You're just making this up because you like being a victim, that sort of stuff. But you know, anybody that is experiencing this, I really think, needs to seek proper you know treatment for it, because it's so deeply rooted it's hard to do it on your own right.

Speaker 2 16:34

You really need to go back and you know I mentioned this in the when we met at the last podcast it's doing a lot of the inner child work too. Right, you have to go back and reparent that wounded child because that child has been ignored its entire life. And people who have experienced this will also ignore that child, right, because they felt that that child wasn't entitled to feel what it did. So a lot of the work is going back to the inner child reparenting. There's different ways of doing this. Like. One of the newer methods that I use to work with this is now hypnosis. I'm able to take the adult to the child and help it, really sit there with it in its pain and listen to it, and listen to what it needs in order to move forward, so this is not about changing how that person's going to treat them.

Speaker 2 17:34

No.

Speaker 1 17:35

In any way. So it's about figuring out no. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 17:39

So that is the one. Yes, I should really clarify that, and I say this to people from the very first session you are not going to change this person. You are not going to change their behaviors. You're not going to change how they treat you. We have no control over that.

Speaker 2 17:58

But you can become better at setting boundaries, and I leave it up to them to decide what they want to do with the relationship and, depending on how extreme and bad it is, they decide where to draw the line of the boundary. And the boundary building is really challenging too, because they're doing this for the first time, so there is going to be a lot of pushback too, from the parent, right, like, what are you doing? You've always been okay with this. Now you want to change things? Yeah, but they need to find a way to preserve their sanity, be happy and be able to say this is no longer okay. If you want to be in my life, then this is what I need yeah, and, and that must be the hardest part for the person that right, that is the hardest part.

Speaker 2 19:04

That is the hardest part, and it's not something you do once or twice and becomes easy. It's something that needs to be maintained. And I have seen, I have to say I have seen several times where, once the parent realizes that oh, you know they're being serious, then they start to behave differently.

Speaker 1 19:32

So it can impact, it can also make a change.

Speaker 2 19:37

Yeah, but it's not. We're not betting on that.

Speaker 1 19:39

That's not the promise. Yeah, yeah, that's the. That's the bonus. I guess the plus yes and so can we identify some signs or common signs that someone is experiencing this, any common alerts to the person who might be in it and not know that they are, whether it's to a parent or a partner or a boss relationship somehow?

Speaker 2 19:59

well, these people tend to feel hopeless. They feel very lonely. They can feel very lonely to be in these relationships and very powerless because they feel that they can't say no and, like I said earlier, this self-doubt. Sometimes they will try to detach themselves or keep these people at a distance, but then, of course, due to the guilt, they get sucked right back in right and so they keep finding themselves in the same cycles again and again.

Speaker 2 20:36

There's a lot of feelings of unworthiness yes, that they're not worthy of anything. Really, their feelings don't matter. What they think doesn't matter. Sometimes they're accused of being attention-seeking when they try to voice how they feel.

Speaker 1 21:00

Interesting.

Speaker 2 21:07

And it becomes hard to really trust anyone and yourself. And it's hard to trust your instincts. It's hard to trust that you can judge people, choose the right people. You know, sometimes when we get to the point where they've really acknowledged and realized what's happened to them, they'll say to me, I don't even want to be in a relationship with anyone anymore. How can I know that this isn't going to happen again? I can't trust myself to choose the right people how can?

Speaker 1 21:53

I can't trust myself to choose the right people. Can you think of any typical behaviors of the narcissist in their relationship, any typical ways of being that we haven't mentioned?

Speaker 2 21:59

it's generally very abusive, right.

Speaker 1 22:02

I mean, that's the word that I would use um it's like I said before, and it's not just physical right, it's emotional, no no, no. Emotional mostly.

Recognizing Signs of Narcissistic Abuse

Speaker 2 22:12

Emotional, mental abuse. You're not good enough. You're crazy. You made this up. That never happened. Yeah, the gaslighting. So basically, when someone is gaslighting you, they are making you doubt anything that's happened, anything that you say. They'll do things or say things and then pretend that nothing happened and just everything is your fault. It's very manipulative.

Speaker 1 22:53

And are there any more subtle signs as well the less obvious ones.

Speaker 2 23:02

The less obvious. Let me think, I mean, if so, it's so obvious to me that it's hard for me to think of less, but I think the way that people are surprised to discover you've already touched on a few.

Speaker 2 23:16

But when they hear about it they're like oh, I had no idea I think people have become very good at catching these things, but it's kind of like when I always I always say to people like trust, the feeling in your body too. Hmm, when this person is saying something to me and I start feeling unworthy or doubting myself for my sanity or worthiness, what's also happening? Is there an alarm that's being set off warning me? So the listening to your body part is very important too, because it's there. We just don't listen.

Speaker 1 23:58

Yeah, and when you say listening to your body, you mean in terms of tightening up, feeling tense, like. Can you just identify a few?

Speaker 2 24:04

things? Yeah, it is. I always ask, you know, when I bring things up up, when I bring memories or situations or things that happen, and this is actually a way where we get to the source, right where we are talking about a situation that's happened today, now, with their partner, with their colleague, with their parent, and I will ask them, when you this up, where you feel it in your body? People always are able to identify the part of the body that they feel it in, whether it's their head or their chest or their throat, and then they will say you know, they'll identify the part, they'll describe the feeling, and then I have them close their eyes and I'll ask them when is the first time you remember feeling this way? And oftentimes the feeling will take them back to a very early memory where the situation might not be the same.

Speaker 2 25:05

It's usually not the same, but the feeling of the situation is the same, and then things begin to start making sense and I try to go back are there cases where they might not remember where that feeling first was felt, or feel blocked?

Speaker 2 25:22

sometimes earlier on in treatment, though with some people it's harder and they're not ready for it. There's also many people that are very dissociated from their body, feelings, their bodies, and so we'll have to do other types of work to get there. And that makes sense too, right? Yeah, associate, and from your body because you don't safety.

Speaker 1 25:47

Yeah, you feel these things, your body is protected yeah, the things can you do to get them to start feeling it in their body, start to notice, you know, if they have disassociated for so long and they're not connected with themselves, are there certain exercises or certain things to start to become aware of?

Speaker 2 26:05

to see, hang on, I'm doing that thing again well, I think that a lot of people that do have this dissociative component benefit a lot from doing like meditation. There's I've seen specifically with being dissociated from your body. I've seen huge success with people that are doing trauma-informed yoga. I have people that I've worked with that have had difficulty accessing those feelings and then when I worked with trauma-informed yoga therapists collaboratively, we've seen what does that do, Eleanor?

Speaker 1 26:44

What does that actually do for them? That's different. By moving their body and breathing in certain ways. How can you just go into that a little bit? So?

Speaker 2 26:52

I the trauma-informed yoga. Yeah, we do have a wonderful trauma-informed yoga therapist in cyprus who's done.

Speaker 1 27:01

We're gonna have her on, I think, when she feels more good. You should. I mean, I need to ask her again. Did mention it once, but I think she needs some time.

Speaker 2 27:10

You've done incredible work, where people that I've been working with for years are able to move with that much faster.

Speaker 1 27:18

You're using the physical and the mental. I really, really believe that those two need to connect. It's not just a matter of mind, it has to be both. I'm seeing that more and more and with everything that's showing that moving your body is part of it, and if we're in depressive states, we need to start moving somehow well, yeah, we all create different ways of like, different defenses, defenses and different ways of survival, right, sometimes, and this is where you get like and and, even with dissociation.

Speaker 2 27:49

That's like a completely different topic that I could talk for days about. But there's different levels of dissociation, right, and the dissociation does begin very early on in life, right, where the child can be experiencing something and they'll say I can't do this, I can't do this, let me create somebody that can. And that's the extreme form where we see like what people, what now it's called dissociative identity disorder, in the past it was called multiple personality but where you're creating somebody who's able to take the abuse or or whatever it is that's happening that they feel they can't survive.

Speaker 1 28:34

Wow, isn't it amazing how the body compensates and what it actually does to survive. That's incredible.

Speaker 2 28:40

So some people will do that and create another person. Some people will just shut down and not feel anything. Some people will start drinking or using drugs to numb themselves.

Speaker 1 28:53

So it's all again. It's what you choose as your coping right, so it could be the same thing but dealt with in so many different ways.

Speaker 2 29:00

Yes, it's like now we'll see with a lot of adolescents. It begins in adolescence, but I see it later on too, with the non-suicidal self-endurance behaviors. You know, people who cut, who burn.

Speaker 1 29:14

That's also a coping mechanism so just take us through that a bit. Someone who's harming themselves in their body or cutting and hurting themselves. What is the reason for that, what is the motivation behind that, so we can understand that better.

Speaker 2 29:27

So, to be clear, they are not intending to kill themselves. It's very different and I know it's often confused because of you know what they do. But it should be taken seriously because I've seen people that have engaged in those behaviors and ended up in the hospital because they've cut too far.

Speaker 2 29:49

They've gone too far too far, exactly, um, but what most people will say to you is that it helps them feel alive or it takes them out of that situation, and for some, from what I've seen, it's also a way of punishing themselves for right for what they've gone through, for what they've experienced because there's a lot of self-blame.

Speaker 2 30:20

They blame themselves for the things that have happened to them. Uh, you know, especially when we're kids and things happen to us, we don't understand what's right or wrong. And when the people that are hurting us are people that we're supposed to trust and supposed to be best for us and they do these things, it's very confusing for a kid yeah, that makes a lot of sense and so you know, if you're feeling, you know I'm a terrible person. That's why this happened.

Speaker 1 30:53

You'll have some people be inclined to punish themselves also go back a little bit more into the long-term effects of being on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse.

Speaker 2 31:08

I think that a lot. I mean something that does impact how long term or how severe it is depends on a person's environment and who they're surrounded by, and if there are other people there to sort of help them see themselves differently. And some people have that, but most don't. I've met people who ended up having very good, healthy relationships and I will say to them I'm surprised that you were able to do this and they'll say, yeah, me too. But you know, even the ones that managed to be in healthy relationships, the loneliness and the despair and the self-doubt and like that self-loathing is still there, right.

Speaker 1 32:13

So so that stays with them and that they carry that through into every situation, right?

Speaker 2 32:18

so any kind of interaction, work situations, anything yeah, it's, it's in work situations we really have more control over, you know, dealing with the narcissistic boss, but in relationships it's um, you know it's hard to begin to untangle that too, but eventually, you know, as we go through all the relationships and see what the similarities were, they are eventually able to go on that first date, and then they'll come and say to me oh, not going back, there was the flag, there was the flag.

Speaker 1 32:56

And you know it's self-awareness, isn't it, elena?

Speaker 2 33:01

It's self-awareness. It's so rewarding to be able to. It gives you a sense of power, right that you've never had before.

Speaker 1 33:09

Before to be able to see this, I think that's what it's about, because you could be subconsciously attracting and just allowing and the minute you start to notice there it is, there it goes. You can start to build around that. But I think it's that not knowing that's quite dangerous sometimes, because we do get misled.

Speaker 2 33:28

Yeah yes, of course, and we look like with any type of abuse. Right, it it's in a cycle. It's not always bad. Right, because there has to be something that keeps you going. My mom wasn't always bad, my partner isn't always bad, my partner isn't always bad. Right, because they go through the cycle when everything's okay and they have their good moments, and then it goes through the bad and it just keeps going right, and that's what keeps us in bad situations. Right, because they're not all bad. Typically, if something is all bad all the time, the only reason why people stay is because they feel their life is threatened or they really have. They feel they have a choice. But in these types of situations, with the narcissistic abuse, there is a cycle.

Speaker 1 34:23

And does it usually tend to follow a certain time frame? Is it usually, would you say, it goes like a couple of good weeks, or is it more erratic and all over the place? What do you think? It's hard to say.

Speaker 2 34:34

It's hard to say I mean, everybody is so different but it only takes. You know, like that, one good day out of the a hundred bad will keep you in it so much longer. Right, Because it gives you hope. You know, if they were able to be this way today, maybe it can happen again. Maybe, if I'm good enough, we can keep it up?

Speaker 1 35:00

And is there a chance that the person is trying to change the narcissist? Not that they can, but that they're holding on in that hope of changing things? Yes, of course right that thing.

Speaker 2 35:10

You know, like you said, if I were better or if I were enough, or whatever it's like with gambling right, all it takes is that one time to keep people going back to the casino. Narcissists also have this tendency to what we call love bombing. They love bomb can you go? Into that a little bit explain that a bit more feel, um, that they could be losing you.

Speaker 2 35:37

They'll just bombard you with love and try to convince you that you know everything they do is because they love you and it's you know. This is your, your soul mates, and it can't be any other way. And just goes back into the cycle like any other type of abuse. Right, but the purpose?

Speaker 1 36:01

of it is very manipulative. Okay, that's what?

Speaker 2 36:03

because I mean that could happen in a normal relationship yes, quote unquote, right, yes, but so not to confuse the two yes, but the purpose is to gain the victim's trust, right. How do you gain it if I'm losing it? And try to establish that connection again, because these relationships are very intense, right. They bank on the intensity of that feeling, right, because as terrible as they make you feel, at the same time they have to be able to establish that intense feeling of love too.

Speaker 1 36:40

What if someone listening to this is actually saying hang on, I'm the narcissist in the relationship they're identifying with a lot of these things? What would you say to that person?

Speaker 2 36:50

I would say to them that I imagined that they are hurting in a lot of ways too, and I would invite them to explore and look into themselves to see where this is coming from and why they feel they need to engage in these sort of tactics to maintain love with someone, because my guess is they've probably had a very similar background to the person who's experiencing the abuse so they were on the receiving end of it.

Healing From Narcissistic Family Relationships

Speaker 1 37:31

Yeah, it's like with abusers either become abusers or the opposite. Right, go out of their way to fix it and to help others, right.

Speaker 2 37:40

So well, because these behaviors are learned. Our home is our role model. Right, this is what we think is normal. I can't tell you how many insane stories I've heard happening in people's childhoods, in their home, where while they were in it, they thought it was normal because you know, that's what parents do, that's how parents are, and it's not until they get out of it and into the world where they see other examples that are like, oh wait, maybe that wasn't normal.

Speaker 1 38:23

Yeah, you definitely need to be's also almost like when you leave your country and you experience something different and then you see the difference. Right, you're like, oh, that's how we do it there. Or when you learn about your own culture in that way. I guess that's a similar. The way I can correlate the two, I will say the partners too.

Speaker 2 38:45

Some look out for is. They will notice that there's a lot of lying, a lot of pathological lying on the part of the partner, because the narcissist also, although they present themselves to be full of self-love, experience a lot of insecurity, and so they do have to lie and be over the top to be able to seduce others. That's their feeling right, because they are also not good enough.

Speaker 1 39:19

It's like pain on both sides. That's the thing. It's clear that both are suffering both, and it's not to to paint them as evil monsters, I think both sides are part of the human experience and they've just developed the skills differently on either side. But the thing is reaching out and getting the help. I think that's the difference. Yeah, that can make the biggest difference. And how long are you going?

Speaker 2 39:45

to carry that. When we talk about trauma bonding, when people come together and fall in love because of, yeah, they kind of like attracted to each other's wounds.

Speaker 1 39:56

almost right If this is what I'm understanding, what I've read and heard You're picking up yeah, subconsciously filling in that part of each other. Isn't that fascinating? It really is, it's just wow.

Speaker 2 40:09

Yes, that's why I do, why I do?

Speaker 1 40:10

yeah, you love it I don't know how you do it. I'm amazed. But let's go to ways of healing. Then, like some, you know what are some of the ways in helping people on either end. I know therapy obviously coming to and talking it through, but are there any other strategies or ways to help people on both sides? Let's start with the person on the receiving end.

Speaker 2 40:35

So I'll speak to the receiving end, because that looks very different. So, to start, I want to make sure that I'm making it clear. You know, like I said, we can't control how other people will react. Like I said, we can't control how other people will react, and although we create the boundary, we can't know that people will adhere to them.

Speaker 2 40:58

What I find the most difficult for people to accept is that they will never have that relationship that they want with the parent. That is the most painful part of our work together, and I'll give an example, because I've had several situations of this happening where women will come to me right before they get married or during the engagement phase, and so, especially here in the american culture I I'm not sure everywhere else, but the mother plays a huge role in assisting the bride-to-be, and there's things that you do together and there's, you know, traditions that people experiencing this can't do with their. They can't take their mom to buy a wedding dress with or to try on, they can't expect her to be there for them, and they will come to me thinking that they're the only person in the world experiencing this. This is the. This is actually very interesting too. There's a huge sense of isolation, that nobody else has a mother like this, that all other mothers are normal. And why do I get this?

Speaker 2 42:58

they all feel very isolated and so when they realize that they're never gonna have what they feel other people have. It's devastating, almost like I tell them it's like this is grief. You have to accept that. You know this is a loss, this is something you'll never have, and you know there's different things that we can do, usually not including the parent. Well, you know things like writing letters to the parent, working with themselves, finding ways to manage the sadness throughout this very happy time and helping them to maintain their boundaries so that that parent doesn't destroy this experience for them, because oftentimes these parents will make it about them and and to me.

Speaker 2 44:08

So to me, that is one of the hardest times and, like I said, because I've had so many women come to me at that point in time, I can see how significant it is for them and how painful the loss is.

Speaker 2 44:25

And then you know we move on to the becoming a parent yourself part, which is reparative, but it's also interesting because they will often not want their mothers around. It's another time in life where most people would want their moms around and they don't. So having those boundaries there too and being able to say you know, this is my time, this is my time for myself. I will not allow you to ruin this. For me, it's devastating, and because of this, and in the past we've done groups for people like this, which have been very successful, and I'm in the process of creating such a group right now too, because I think it's so important for them to be able to see that other people have experienced it.

Speaker 2 45:39

Other people have experienced it right when most won't share what their mother is like with their friends, maybe to an extent with their partner, because they feel shame, and also sometimes, when they do, they're met with she can't be with. She can't be that bad. It can't be that bad, reinforcing again the self-doubt Am I the one that's crazy? And so I think having the support of a group of people that have the same experience one shows you you're not crazy and you're not the only person, you're not isolated and you can get through this, not just get through this. You will get through this and be okay from what you've said.

Speaker 1 46:20

Both examples, with the getting married and having the child, are heightened in emotion and in. I think that's also times when you completely evaluate your life and those are the times you notice what's there, what's missing absolutely.

Speaker 2 46:35

I tell people I have been, I had been in therapy for years before I became a parent. Years and I became a parent and I was like, oh man, I gotta go back to therapy.

Speaker 1 46:52

It's just I think we all need therapy. Did everything, especially I don't know it does.

Speaker 1 46:59

It brings up so much of what you didn't know you had inside, and I often catch myself as well still saying things that I promised myself I would never say as a parent, and I was like, whose voice was that now? And not that it's a good or bad judgment, but just how ingrained it is in us. And those are the times, I think, that we proper challenge ourselves and we become most self-aware through those moments. Those have been my defining moments at least that have really challenged me and questioned a lot about myself and learned the most.

Speaker 2 47:31

I think now I call my kids my greatest teachers, both of them no, I mean especially seeing them as they grow right, like and remembering yourself at their age.

Speaker 1 47:44

Yeah, yeah, I've never said this before when I'm gonna say it and I don't know if I. I don't know if I'm gonna keep this in or take it out.

Speaker 2 47:52

Eleanor, but I never felt beautiful until I saw my own child born and I saw myself in him and then and I was like wow it's not anything I don't know, it's not, it's not anything you could ever explain or expect or any of that. Like I my, my experience was and I will never forget this, because I don't know what I was thinking up until the moment of birth right, they, you know, I had a c-section they took him, my nicoli, and they brought him to me. I remember they placed his face next to mine and I was like, wow, this is love, this is what love is, and it was like this moment of clarity and redefining anything that I thought prior to that. And we just he wasn't even talking to me, he just came in.

Speaker 1 48:59

He just existed on knowing figures. Yes, yeah, and same with you. Like when I saw a picture of him first, because I also had a C-section and I was very weak because I I was really ill around that week. It got really bad cold, and so I was in so much pain and they, before I could actually see him, they showed me a picture that they'd taken from the nursery and I was like no, is that him? Is he mine? You?

Speaker 2 49:24

know. So, when, when you have that experience, think and your experience of being a child was not so great it really shifts a lot of things for you and that's why, for people in these situations, I think it can be very reparative to have the opportunity to be that to someone, to be that someone that they never got to have.

Speaker 1 50:02

But even if you've, I think even in the parenting situations where things have gone right, you still have that, you might still have that reaction and still have that no, I want to be clear.

Speaker 2 50:15

no, I'm going to be clear that I've used a lot of female examples just because I've had so many females, but there are just as many males that come to me for this. We've actually had in the practice a very successful male narcissistic abuse survival group too, so it's very, very similar.

Speaker 1 50:44

And what are the defining moments for them? So, is it also their weddings, is it also their firstborn children experience? What would those be?

Speaker 2 50:54

I have to say, with men, my experience was that they really had a challenging time being in a healthy relationship, you know, just finding themselves in situations where they're mistreated and being abused and all of that. And so when they've and I you know what I love the most I always tell patients, you know, one of the hardest things about being a therapist and ending treatment is oh no, I don't. What happens next?

Speaker 2 51:31

I don't get to know what happens, you don't get to see the rest of the chapters and I tell them, no matter where you are in this world, but always feel free to come back and tell me.

Speaker 2 51:42

And you know, let me know what happens and they do, and it's so, it's so incredible to be able to, like, get an email three years later saying I met the love of my life. Wow, finally, you know, because of the work we did and being able to, you know, equip people to go out into the world and do this is just beyond, I don't know, beyond rewarding, beyond anything, it's just, it's incredible. Yes, so I just really wanted I wanted to stress that, though, too, that this happens just as frequently to men, and you know it's the work is very similar too, and with men too, you know, with men, it's even harder for them to be, able to express themselves and say that.

Speaker 2 52:45

you know, this is how I feel this is what's happening? Why is?

Speaker 1 52:52

it harder. Why do you think it's harder?

Speaker 2 53:04

Because they're told not to sort of like complain or express themselves, or you know, boys don't cry environment. And then you get that, culturally too, it's very.

Speaker 1 53:18

That's true, they're very true. So anyone listening to this, and you, they you want to leave them with one message from all of this If they're going to take nothing away from it but that one important part, what would you want them to hold on to him?

Speaker 2 53:37

That there is a way past this, that you don't always have to feel this way.

Speaker 2 53:44

You know the decision is yours, and I think people are ready at different times of their lives, but whenever they are, they should reach out, look to find somebody who can help them with this. There's lots of support groups on this too. There's lots of. You know different ways of doing this. Obviously, I am biased. I feel that therapy, individual therapy, really is the way to go to like really get to the root of it. You know, I use whether it's EMDR, hypnosis, the parts work, the yoga work, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 54:28

Different things work for different people, but reach out and find someone that can help you through this journey. The other thing is, I think it's going to be important to find somebody that really specializes in this type of work. You want somebody that's knowledgeable. You want somebody that's knowledgeable in working with this population. You know it's not a general. You know one size fits all type of thing. We need to find the right fit and I always encourage people when you're doing consults with therapists, meet with as many as you can and when you know the right one is there, you will know. You just know. It's like any other relationship, you know, and if anybody needs to talk more or has any more questions, they can feel free to reach out to me, email me.

Destigmatizing Narcissistic Family Relationships

Speaker 1 55:22

All your information on the show notes. So if anybody wants to reach out, yeah, I think that's just to normalize it, normalize human experiences and not to feel like you said, because everybody goes through different things at different times. We don't want to be like walking around in this Everything's great and happy all the time and it's not. You know, some things require work. Different life stages need different attention. Like we said, when you have, you know, significant moments in your life and or life changes changes sometimes. You can't always do it on your own. You need to reach out and get another perspective on things and just somebody who's more experienced in that area. Of course, the answers come from within, but some kind of bouncing board, but it is important to find the right people. I really want to emphasize that. Not to, because we can also get lost in the process.

Speaker 2 56:09

No, and my hope really is to sort of to destigmatize this too, because, like I said, people that are going through this think that nobody else is going through this. Every single time someone has walked through this door, they will tell me that they don't think anyone has had this experience. They don't know anyone and yet has had this experience.

Speaker 1 56:33

They don't know anyone and yet they're probably surrounded by so many people because it's shameful, right, it's shameful to say I did not have a great child and you, from experience, can give them that voice like obviously without sharing details of the people you can say I've experienced so many people with the same thing. Here are some commonalities. You're not alone, so you come with this authority as well. That can really really-.

Speaker 2 56:52

And that's why I want to start the groups again too, because I really want, and that's the power of the group too, which is why I'm going to start that again, because I want people to, and it's not just something I'm telling them they'll see it and they can support each other.

Speaker 1 57:08

That's amazing, yes that's amazing.

Speaker 2 57:15

Yes, any other final quotes, closing thoughts, books to read? The one that I give my patients because there's like a word part of it too and it's hard to go through is will I ever be good enough? I want to. I just want them to know that healing is real and that they don't have to experience this for the rest of their lives. I think the hope is important because people are so hopeless. It's amazing.

Speaker 1 57:35

That's what. That's actually what they're coming for, thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 57:38

Oh, no, I want to thank you. This is good. It's good because I want people to know that this is real and it's a thing, and that you know they're not crazy.