45. Money Fog: Breaking Free from Financial Anxiety

Financial Anxiety: It’s Not Just About the Numbers

Financial anxiety affects nearly everyone, regardless of income. The real question is: What if the solution isn’t just earning more money, but understanding the psychological forces that shape our relationship with it?

For over 25 years, Mikelann Valterra has worked at the intersection of economics and psychology, helping people worldwide overcome what she calls the “money fog.” This fog—made up of Fear, Overwhelm, and Guilt (FOG)—keeps us stuck in patterns of stress and avoidance. Its roots often trace back to childhood experiences where money was taboo, a source of conflict, or simply never discussed.

While many financial experts preach mindset first, Mikelann takes a refreshingly practical approach. She begins by helping clients craft a personalized spending plan that reflects their values and priorities—then dives into the emotional barriers that block progress. This blend of clarity and emotional awareness is what creates lasting change.

One of her most eye-opening insights is on “lifestyle creep.” As income rises, so do expenses—thanks to hedonic adaptation, our brain’s tendency to quickly normalize new pleasures. That’s why doubling your income rarely doubles your happiness. Instead, the commitments grow while satisfaction plateaus.

For parents, Mikelann shares smart strategies to raise financially aware kids, like using wish lists and distinguishing between needs and wants. For everyone, she emphasizes connecting with your future self—treating that person with care through today’s financial decisions.

Ready to rise above the money fog?
Dive deeper into these concepts in her book, Rise Above the Money Fog, or take her free Money Personality Quiz at SeattleMoneyCoach.com
. You can also join her Awakened Money Newsletter for monthly insights and tools to create financial peace of mind.
Your future self will thank you.

FREE RESOURCE: https://www.seattlemoneycoach.com/  

For more information:

WEBSITE: https://www.seattlemoneycoach.com/

CONTACT INFO: mikelann@seattlemoneycoach.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MikelannSeattleMoneyCoach

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sea

Discover more with Midweek Insights, your space for quality insights and golden nuggets of wisdom to fuel self improvement, mindfulness and inspiration. Each episode explores growth practices, self-leadership and communication hacks, offering real-life tools. We dive into the subconscious mind, storytelling techniques and personal growth, with a focus on health, coping strategies, and inner strength.

Get in touch at: midweekinsights@gmail.com

https://www.instagram.com/midweekinsights/?

The information provided in Midweek Insights is for general informational  and entertainment purposes only and is not intended as professional advice. Where needed, listeners should seek professional advice relevant to their specific circumstances before making any decisions.

While we strive to provide accurate and up-to-date information, the dynamic nature of certain topics may result in changes or updates. Midweek Insights does not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or suitability of information discussed in the episodes.

Transcript

Introduction to Financial Psychology

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome back to our latest episode of Midweek Insights. Today we connect Cyprus and Seattle in a conversation that circles around financial psychology. Our guest, michael-ann Volterra, is an author, speaker, financial therapist, master, money coach, and she helps women all around the world rise above the money fog, transform their relationships with money and design their ideal life. For 25 years she's been a thought leader in financial psychology and has written, spoken and been interviewed extensively on powerful, practical ways to reduce money anxiety, and she teaches effective methods for earning, saving, reducing debt and managing money. Her new book is called Rise Above the Money Fog and it's also now available online. And with that, let me take you straight to the episode. Enjoy. So thank you for being here. I'm very excited to have you here virtually so we can learn from you and all about your experiences in this field.

Speaker 2 1:04

I am so jazzed to be here. Yeah, good morning from the Pacific Northwest of the United States. It's very. I love the new world where we can connect from Cyprus to Seattle. It's so wonderful.

Speaker 1 1:19

It's.

Speaker 2 1:19

Seattle. I got a good cup of coffee going.

Speaker 1 1:22

Let me start with you telling us a little bit about your background and what led you to becoming a financial money coach.

Speaker 2 1:30

Yeah, that's the perfect place to start. So, I, believe it or not, I have been many people will call me a money coach or a financial coach yes, financial therapist Over 25 years, desi. That is just crazy. So what happened is I have an undergraduate degree in the United States in economics, and then I took years off, wandered around, tried to figure out what do I want to do when I grow up you know that whole phase of life, right? And I went back to graduate school and I got a graduate degree in psychology, transpersonal psychology. And so here I was in my mid-20s, at this intersection of finance and psychology, and I was fascinated with both. But I couldn't figure out. What did I want to do, right? Did I want to become in the United States we'd use the term financial planner, which would be working with, you know, investments in retirement. Or did I want to be a psychotherapist and, you know, truly work with people on deep, deep counseling?

Speaker 2 2:34

And I was in a huge quandary because I loved what came to be called the psychology of money. So eventually I met a woman who was one of the first money coaches in the United States and she had found this way to combine them and I thought, oh my gosh, that is what I want to do. But but at the time it just didn't exist. Coaching, 25 years ago, as you know, was not hard to. I mean, no one even hardly used the term Money. Coaching didn't exist. So when I started off, they called me a financial counselor, and you know I've been called different things throughout the years. Right, but it evolved into the field of financial coaching and financial therapy.

Speaker 2 3:21

So that brings us to today, and now I work with people at this intersection between the emotional side of money and the practical side, and one way I would say it Desi is that it used to be that if people had questions around investments, they'd see a financial planner, investment people.

Understanding the Money Fog

Speaker 2 3:43

Or if they had questions around debt, they might see what we call a credit counselor. The reality is most people, regardless of where you live, do want to build net worth and they don't want to have debt. But neither of those fields is really well equipped to deal with the emotional side of money. And boy, there are a few things more emotional than money. So you know, we really need to look at both to have a healthy relationship to money, which is, you know, what you and I are exploring today. It's about, yes, of course, we want to be solid on the practical side of money and you know, know where our money is going, and all sorts of things that keep us out of the money fog, and we want to feel better about how we feel about money. And so that's where I am today, 25 years later after starting in private practice.

Speaker 1 4:38

Amazing, amazing journey, and I understand the difficulty of trying to combine the things you enjoy and putting it together in a way that actually helps and has an impact on people. When people come to you, what is the pain point that actually leads people to you?

Speaker 2 4:52

Yeah, no, that's a good question. The number one pain point is people call me up and say I'm tired of not feeling in control of my money. That is the number one thing I hear I'm tired of not feeling in control of my money, followed by I am tired of feeling stressed. Some people say stressed, some people say anxious, some people say feeling bad, but just not feeling good. And then the third pain point these are obviously all super connected is they're tired of not knowing what they can do. And you know, it's interesting, it's super personal, right. But they will say listen, I think I make enough money. I don't know if I can afford to go to Hawaii. I'm tired of feeling guilty about what I spend on, you know, whatever it is that's bringing the feelings up for them. It could be horseback riding or clothes, or you know whatever it is. And so people are tired of not being clear about what they can do with their money and still feel good about it.

Speaker 1 5:54

So, when they come to you, you outline a plan for tackling first of all the feelings behind this Right and then looking at practical ways of taking control.

Speaker 2 6:08

Yes, the caveat is I would flip it. My style of coaching is that I actually start with let's look at where the money is going first. Let's look at putting together. For example, you could use the word budget, spending plan, cash flow plan. People don't know how to look at money and they tend to complicate it, and so, once we build, my vote would be a fairly simple, fairly elegant way of looking at you know where is your money going and where's the money coming from, and let's make it work. Then let's dive into the emotional side, and the reason I think it's an important distinction is that what I have found over the years, particularly more so in the last five years, is that the psychology of money is becoming increasingly popular. There's a lot more out there on.

Speaker 2 6:59

I'm sure many of your listeners have heard the term what's your money mindset, right? Many of your listeners have heard the term what's your money mindset, right. I mean there's all sorts of different. You know things that are up around oh, your childhood history around money and money story and things like that. Here's the problem. If you only go there and let's say you go, oh, I get it. I now understand why I spend the way that I do, or why I'm afraid to spend or whatever it is, but nothing's really changed. You're still not sure what you spend. You're still not sure if you can go to Hawaii, you know, you're still not sure what you can afford to do or not do, and so it actually can create more feelings of shame for people if they look only at the emotional side of money without having any more financial clarity. They sometimes will beat themselves up because they'll say well wait, I now know why I do what I do, but I still am feeling foggy about my money. So you know, it's really important to look at both.

Speaker 1 8:02

So it's not enough, obviously, to know and to live there. We need a plan, a practical, step by step. You know, okay, I've gone, but you say you start with the reverse, you start with the plan and then you dig in, exactly exactly the inspiration behind the book, before we go into different areas that you cover, like the psychology and behavior triggers. But what is the inspiration behind writing the book Rise Above the Money Fog. And what does the money fog, the word fog, actually stand for?

Speaker 2 8:28

Oh, yes, you know I like that one. Oh, I see you have looked at this book, yeah, so about three years ago someone said to me it just seems like an odd question, but they said, michael, what's your superpower? And I think I was working with like a business coach and I said, well, that's huh, what's my superpower? And then I realized I was really clear my superpower is helping people get out of the money fog. And I thought you know what that's? The book that is I mean, I've written other other books, but that's the next book is how to rise above the money fog.

Speaker 2 9:04

And so you know, the money fog is the feelings of being fuzzy and vague about our money, when we're not clear. Now, there's several things we could not be clear about, but the most common would be when we're not clear about where we spend our money, when we're not clear how much money we need to earn to live the life we want, when we're not clear how much money we should be saving right. There's many, you know, kind of pockets of fog. But all of that not being clear, all of that vagueness, causes a lot of feelings. So money fog is more about the feelings we have as a result of being vague, so fog.

Speaker 2 9:51

Money fog stands for when we're in fear around our money or when we feel overwhelmed by our money or when we feel guilty about our money. You know, often it's guilt about spending, but there's lots of forms of financial guilt and what I would say is when you feel any of those three things you know fear, overwhelm or guilt related to money generally, it's a signpost that you may be in a money fog, because when you're in a fog you can't see it. It's really hard to see fog when you're in it, but when you feel those three things connected to money, that is a trigger or sign to go. Ah, these are pointing to something and I believe they're likely pointing to the fact that you're in a money fog.

Speaker 1 10:40

So is there a common underlying factor to these that creates it? Do you see some commonalities in what brings out fear, overwhelm and guilt, or is it personal and individual to everybody?

Breaking Childhood Money Patterns

Speaker 2 10:53

Yeah, common is an interesting word. This may not be exactly what you're asking, but I think this is where you're going. Fog generally comes from childhood. Most people that identify with being in a money fog.

Speaker 2 11:08

Money fog originates in our childhood and it's I don't say simply because because you know this is obviously a big subject, but it is often because money is not talked about. Growing up, money is not taught. And also, desi, a lot of people growing up are literally told it's bad or wrong to talk about money as kids. And so you know kids were like sponges. We know when adults are stressed. We also know when something is really important, like we can literally see our parents using money to buy food, parents using money to buy food, things that we know are incredibly important, and yet there's often this taboo against talking about this piece of life that seems to literally be part of our life force, our life energy that somehow it's wrong to talk about. And so when you're raised in families that don't teach you about money, don't talk clearly about money, aren't? It's not okay to go to mom and dad and ask about money, right? This often generates money fog.

Speaker 2 12:12

You grow up and as an adult, there's this.

Speaker 2 12:15

It's almost an unconscious feeling that says, oh my gosh, to talk about money or deal with it or look at it, I just know it's bad, I just know it makes mom cry, you know, or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 12:27

Because, as kids, if you take it one more step, there are many people, unfortunately, that actually grew up in households where money was a huge stressor and they saw that it caused a lot of pain in their family. You know, they may, for example, have seen their parents fight about money and, you know, is that true in every family? You know some families it was just invisible and not talked about, which absolutely creates a lot of fog, right. But you know, if you grew up in a family where they're fighting about money, then you grew up with a very unconscious connection that money causes pain and don't go there and don't talk about it because it has a lot of early childhood connections to um, to you know, really sad and negative things and if a parent is listening and they are feeling a lot of stress and overwhelm right now around money and guilt.

Speaker 1 13:18

How can they not transfer this to their children while they're trying to figure out their own will come out of their own money fog.

Speaker 2 13:27

Well, that's the next generation, right, because we can't go back and change how we were raised. But how do we go forward now? You know, for all your listeners that have kids, I think part of it is just the conversation that you and I are having. The fact that we're talking about money and its impact on us emotionally, I think, is a game changer. You know, it's not something that people have given a lot of thought to, partly because we're all just trying to do the best that we can and people haven't thought oh, this is being picked up by my children, right? So the awareness that the words that you use and how you talk about money has an impact on your kids is a big deal. And then taking it the next step and really being conscious about language and kids and being able to start sharing with your kids really basic money management and you know we you listener know your children better than anyone. You know what's appropriate and not appropriate for your kids and their ages and things like that, of course. But one of the great places to start with your kids is helping them get clear what do they need and what do they want. And you know, the earliest conversations about money aren't really about money. They're about wants and desires. And you know kids with all the toys that they want and things like that. And so instead of saying you know we can't afford that, or you know all the things that we very easily say in the moment, is instead to say, I hear you, I really hear that you want that and let's put that on your wish list. And that sounds like a really simple thing and it may sound like, well, wait, you know, michael, and what's it have to do with money, but it's the foundation of a healthy money life. It's the foundation of beginning to look at we all have needs and wants. We're not going to ignore what we need and what we want. And it's also the beginning of delayed gratification, instead of either just giving your kids whatever they want or the opposite, just automatically. No right is teaching kids that you can name what you want, you can put it on the list, you can think about it, you can discern it over time, and then you can have thoughtful conversations that say, well, do you need it or do you want it?

Speaker 2 15:49

And so, case in point, when I was a young mom and I would take my son in the United States, we had these huge toy stores called Toys R Us that he was raised with. It's just like this giant mecca of massive, huge toy store, right? So when I would take him to Toys R Us, sometimes it was to pick out a gift, for, you know, he had a friend with a birthday coming up. Well, it's a hard place for a kid to go into to buy a gift for someone else, like come on, right. So, and he was a huge Lego kid and you know, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 16:25

So you know, he, I trained him very early, he could want anything, it's OK. And he would say to me mom, mom, mom, because you never just say mom, once for all the mothers out there, it's always three times minimum, right, mom, mom, mom, put this on my list, right. And so I would. I go, ok, honey.

Speaker 2 16:44

And so we would write on, you know, pull out the old iPhone and write on his wish list whatever the latest thing was, and then he felt seen, he felt heard, he let it go. A week would go by and he'd go mom, I want to look at, oh, no, no, mom, mom, mom, I want to look at my list, right, and then we would pull it out and we would talk about it and some things. He didn't want quite as much but he. We were in the store one time and he was watching this other eight year old boy have a meltdown Right, crying that his mom said no, he couldn't have whatever the bionicle or the toy was. And my son Xander looked at me and he said and my son Xander looked at me and he said, mom why, doesn't?

Speaker 2 17:25

she just put his thing that he wants on his list, like he didn't understand why this other family wasn't just writing down what this kid wanted. He just thought that would help the kids so much and he was so baffled why they were locked in this battle. Aisle number 22, next to the Legos, right? So it helps, because your whole life, you know now my son's 25 and you know, and we'll have these conversations and it comes up for everything when he was buying a car. Well, honey, let's go through the list what do you need and what do you want? And you know what does he want. He wants a Maserati, you know, or whatever, some crazy car. Right, you know, but the needs list is a little bit different. So this ability to sort and name, as adults, what we need versus what we want is so valuable when it comes to our relationship to money. We don't want to feel deprived and we want to honor what, what we need. The question is, how do you do that?

Speaker 1 18:28

how do you do that?

Speaker 2 18:29

how do you do step one? Write it down on the wish list you talk about the lifestyle creep.

Speaker 1 18:37

Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is and how people fall into that as their income rises?

Speaker 2 18:45

Yeah, that. So I and you can tell me, I don't know how international is the phrase keeping up with the Joneses? Are you familiar with that? Yeah, who knows why Americans named the Joneses.

Lifestyle Creep and Happiness

Speaker 2 18:57

I don't know why that you can possibly think of right so lifestyle creep is a version of keeping up with the Joneses, meaning that our, you know, we all feel at some point like, okay, I'm making you know X amount of money, I'm in my 20s and I've got my needs and wants and I've, you know, I've got a certain lifestyle right. And as our professions grow and we start earning more money and let's say, we've gone from making you know I'll just talk in US dollars you know, we've gone from making 50,000 a year to, let's say, 70,000 a year. It may take a little while, right, but we get used to a nice car, it's super fun, it's super exciting. There's a huge. The neurochemical in the brain that fires is called dopamine. We get a big hit of dopamine when we first move into the bigger house, so on and so forth. But our brains get used to whatever the new thing is after a certain period of time and we go back to what is called our set point, meaning our happiness level tends to always come back to about the same level of happiness. And so if we get an injection of money, often because our careers are growing, we will spend it as our lifestyle grows.

Speaker 2 20:50

Hence lifestyle creep. And that goes into many things, because all around us, we see that the Joneses, the next door neighbors well, they got a nicer, bigger car, apparently, that's what you do. And of course the Joneses just had another child, because we all are growing our families right. And of course this year they got better Christmas decorations in the front yard, you know. And so on and so forth. And so, as humans, we are very affected and impacted by other humans, and to say or pretend that we're not doesn't help anything, because that's that, that would make you a robot, right? There's nothing wrong with being deeply impacted by the people around you. That is part of the essence of being human, right? But we're very unconscious about it. And so part of it is just being conscious that our lifestyles are increasing and growing and we want to feel like it's of our own design, not simply because, well, that's what the Joneses are doing, that's what the Joneses are doing right.

Speaker 2 21:58

And so the bottom line is you may find, over a 10-year period, you're spending double what you spent from 10 years earlier and you don't feel any happier, right? You may feel happier a little bit initially when you get the pop of income, but your brain levels out generally back to the set point of happiness. And likewise, here's the good news about the brain. This has to do with what's called hedonic adaption. Right, our brains really dislike extremes of highs and lows.

Speaker 2 22:35

When we go through really hard times in our life that may or may not have anything to do with money, we also don't stay in that deep down and dark place forever. We eventually come back to our set point, and so this, you know, the set point theory of happiness obviously, is a general theory that doesn't have to do with money. But if you add money into it, you can see that it's all connected, because people often think that money brings happiness. But that would be to ignore how the brain works, right, and it tends to bring happiness for a little while, and then we get used to whatever it is we now have.

Speaker 1 23:12

So there's always something that we're always reaching for. So how do we come to a point where we appreciate what we've gained without just following this, keeping up with the Joneses all the time as well? So finding a middle ground?

Speaker 2 23:25

Yeah, and that is the question. You know, that is the question, so you know. So all of the studies and research on happiness tend to end up, in my opinion, kind of three different things pleasure meaning and finding interest in life. Pleasure meaning and finding. You know there's a great book called the Art of the Interesting. They're the three different components of what we call happiness. It's kind of a limitation of the word in English.

Speaker 2 24:06

In my opinion, you know, happiness and so a lot of this stuff around money and happiness is really more around pleasure, right, spending money for pleasure. And if you know, to be clear, if you don't have a workable car, then buying a better car will absolutely give you more happiness. If you have a house that doesn't work for your family anymore, you know, let's say you've had, you know, two more children, a bigger house will absolutely help. But you know, if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I bet a lot of your listeners are familiar with, but you know, in essence basic needs need to be met. So using money for our basic needs absolutely helps us be happier, but up to a certain point only, because after that, more money does not give you more happiness, because when you go to the higher levels of these hierarchies of happiness, in this case Maslow's. Higher levels of happiness are more related to relationship, connection, spirituality, community, right, those things don't. They're not necessarily connected to money. So that's the direction, is, how do we focus on more meaning in our lives as opposed to more pleasure?

Speaker 2 25:28

And there's there was, and you might know it, desi, but there's a very famous longitudinal study of happiness done from I think it's, the Harvard study on happiness. It's like 40, 50 years in the running, it's just crazy long and it looked at what is true happiness and it all boiled down to one single factor Happiness is correlated to connections and relationships, not money Not that they were studying money, right, but you know. So that's where we go. Is it's really about happiness is more about the connections. And you know, for me, like I am a crazy tango dancer and so I spend a lot of time dancing, you know, with my husband and our friends and our dance community, and so much of that is about connection and community and people. Not because I bought another pair of tango shoes, not that I don't like my tango shoes, don't misunderstand me, I do.

Speaker 1 26:32

How do you help? Then someone align their money habits with authentic values, then Okay, so relationships are important, but also getting clear with our authentic, what we authentically value, and then spending on that and helping us reach our life goals as well.

Speaker 2 26:49

Well, I think it's a version of what you just said is naming first of all, what are your values, because you know people do and don't know their values. You can generally help people figure out what their values are by having a conversation about tell me what's important to you. Sometimes people get stuck when you say list your top five values and they kind of freeze right. But if instead you say, you know, here's a list of what's important to me, that is a beautiful and great way to get at what your values are. And then we start looking at your spending and where it aligns and where it doesn't align. And so, for example, one exercise I'll do with clients is we'll figure out what are the top five things that are important to them. We will look at, let's say it's maybe their last month of spending depends on what we're looking at. We could look at a year, right, and then we'll say, okay, let's identify where do you see your values showing up in your spending?

Speaker 2 27:55

And it's really interesting because people are excited when they see it and also chagrined when they don't right. They said they value friendship, right, or beauty, or harmony, or clean living. I mean there's so many wonderful things, right, and they'll go wait, I don't see it. I don't see it. And when you look at what people feel guilty about, you know that F-O-G back to money oftentimes things they feel guilty about are partly because it's not in alignment with their values. They just hadn't looked at it in that way.

Speaker 1 28:34

So they get carried away and they move further away from what they truly want, right? So if they're valuing relationships but they're not investing in that, in terms of maybe ending with someone or surprising someone with the gift, but they're choosing to use it elsewhere, then they're moving further away from what's important. Is that what you're saying, making them feel more uncomfortable? Yeah, exactly, exactly, it's important.

Speaker 2 28:57

Is that what you're saying, making them feel more uncomfortable?

Speaker 1 29:01

Yeah, exactly, Exactly. So how can they start to then get closer to you know, like get clear with what they're valuing and then also use their money in a way that is bringing them more fulfillment and also giving them a little bit more control in how they manage their finances?

Speaker 2 29:17

Well, so this is what is one of my favorite parts is and it might might sound, dare I say, boring, but this, to me, is the center. This is the most exciting thing, and it is designing and living with a personalized spending plan. So you know, because we can talk about this until the cows come home. So you know, doing a monthly spending plan is life changing, because when you design a spending plan, first thing you're doing is you're designing categories of spending that you love and that you want. It's a wireframe of the life that you want to live.

Aligning Money with Personal Values

Speaker 2 29:57

If you looked at my personal spending plan, you would see an entire section on dancing, with subcategories devoted to private lessons and tango travel and yes, tango shoes. You know things like that, right. You would see my personal self-care section. You know, in terms of like, here's what I do with my hair. You know things that I care about. Or you know, in terms of like, here's what I do with my hair. You know things that I care about. Or you know whatever it is, and I don't mean to say that it's all super amazing and exciting. I'm not a huge car person and I do have a car section, you know, in my spending plan.

Speaker 2 30:32

But having a spending plan is about the life that I want to live, and then I plan where I want to spend my money before I spend it. And that is huge. It's like a roadmap for your life. That is like here's my values, here's what I need, here's what I want. Right, part of the balance, and this is the you could say. This is the game, this is the creative endeavor around money is balancing income and outgo, because you can come up with a lovely plan and then your listeners will say, well, that's nice, but where's the money? Right, and that's the creative part of this. You know, what does that mean? If I have X amount of money coming in and the life I want needs this, does it mean I either A have to find a creative way to go on vacation that costs less money but still gives me sunshine, or does it mean, b I go? Oh, I now see I need to make more. And what does that mean? How does that affect my career? Is that about a raise? Is that about if you're self-employed? It brings up all sorts of subjects around revenue, right, but having that to look at and play with is important, because I play in both of those sandboxes. I look a lot at earning issues, I look a lot at how people are spending and how to creatively line all of this up right. And then the last part is then you populate this beautiful plan, simply meaning that you fill it with the numbers as the month goes.

Speaker 2 32:16

We track what we spend against what our vision is, and a plan without any type of implementation tends to not go anywhere again, as everyone listening knows, and so this is an incredibly powerful, powerful process that will absolutely change your life, because you are planning and then looking at and tracking what's actually happening. Now here's the cool part. The cool part is, with modern technology, the tracking part is just not that hard anymore. It's more about how do you set it up, what do you want to look at, how do you analyze it? What do you do with it? You know nobody's sitting there anymore with a pencil and paper adding numbers from the grocery store, right? So it's not about that. But the reason I say that is people have a fear that if they learn how to look at their money, it will take too much time. It's more about how do I do it and what do I want to see with all the stuff that we're talking about.

Speaker 1 33:23

Yeah, how do you prioritize? So you say you put your tango and your passionate projects on your list of spending. So would you say to someone to start with whatever it is they owe first on their list. Would you prioritize that and leave your personal hobbies later on at the bottom? Would you give it equal weighting? Like what would the structure of something look?

Speaker 2 33:45

like. It depends on what the goals are, because I don't want to ignore how much pain people have right now around debt and inadequate savings. And so there's three. This is going to be too simple, but there's three. Not even buckets, because it's too simple. But there's the past, the present and the future. The past is paying off past debt. The present is our current life. The future is savings, and so, yes, I am a money coach, as you can imagine, I am a huge advocate of savings, advocate of savings. Savings is about maintaining our freedom in the future and making sure that we can have the amazing life that we want in the future.

Speaker 2 34:26

People tend to think of it as, oh, I'm depriving my present self and we're. You know, one of the things I find and this goes kind of deep into psychology is we as humans have a hard time envisioning who will be in the future. It's like I'm Michael Ann right now, but the Michael Ann of 10 years feels like a different person, and so if I'm saving for her, it kind of feels like I'm sacrificing for someone else. And so, you know, part of the work of money is really getting to know and befriend our future self so that we can do important things for our future, and a lot of that in money absolutely does come down to saving, right? So you know for me, I know how much money I need to save so that I can again, I'm just going to use sound black and white white or so that I can retire at X date, right, that is not as hard of a number to figure out as I think people make it out to be. I mean, there's their online calculators. Every country is different in terms of, you know, pensions and you know it's different in the United States versus in Britain and things like that. It's different in the United States versus in Britain and things like that. But we can find that number and go okay. So if I save $1,000 a month or invest $1,000 a month, I will be okay in the future. I mean, I'm making that number up, right? But I do absolutely put that number in my plan first, because I have to protect my future, michael, and if we're not protecting our future selves, who else is? And that's a beautiful self-care piece to say to people like who is protecting the future Desi? Who's making sure that the future Desi is going to be okay, right, and that, ultimately, is you right, you want to protect her and make sure she's got everything. So I do lay that number in and then we lay in what we want to enjoy this life.

Speaker 2 36:29

The question around debt is super personal and it simply depends where people are in their life cycle. I've got people that come in and absolutely do have debt, and so we want to, you know, get rid of the. You know credit card debt is super common In the States. There's a huge crisis around student loan debt, and so there is a lot, a lot of pain and suffering around student loans. So, you know, we do want to honor all of that and create a plan that works and honors all of that.

Speaker 2 37:02

And that's where the creativity comes in, because just because I want to, you know, pay off my student loans and save for the future doesn't mean I also still don't want to go out and dance. So is there a more creative way to meet some of the needs? And that goes back to, you know, in childhood do you need it or do you want it? What's the wish list? And really, really getting clear, there's a lot of ways to enjoy your life. There's a lot of creative ways to meet a lot of your needs, but without having the conversation about it. People tend to either just throw money at it, just go on vacation and forget it doesn't matter how much it is, or they assume, oh, I can't, I shouldn't spend anything, right, and so they tend to go to one extreme or the other. And so having this plan allows us to look at everything to come up with the maximum plan for happiness.

Speaker 1 37:59

What about people who might be listening and they've reached a certain set salary, which is, you know? They don't have the time to invest or to do a side hustle to bring in more. They've got a very fixed income. How can they also start to make a change with their fixed income, because they're already limited on time in other ways?

Speaker 2 38:20

Well, I've got a lot of clients, yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you. I have a lot of clients in that boat, because I have a lot of clients that come into financial coaching on the brink of retirement and so they know how much money they can spend. Or supposedly, their financial planners have said you'll be okay if you don't spend more than X per month, you won't run out of money. But they're like well, what if I do spend more? How do I get my arms around this? And same thing if you are at that place in your career like I make this much money, and my answer is not, I'm not going to go deliver newspapers, for goodness sake. But the answer is not, I'm not going to go deliver newspapers, for goodness sake. But the answer is the same.

Protecting Your Future Self

Speaker 2 39:00

We create this spending plan process and lay the pieces in and we make it work, because there's a lot of ways to make it work. There's many, many creative levers. Increasing income is one among many. But it could be that you instead are saying, okay, I want to find a creative way to travel that costs less money. I want to find a creative way to upgrade my wardrobe that doesn't involve going to the high-end stores. I want to find a creative way to see my children more, but seeing the plan allows us to kind of look at all of the playing cards, all of the puzzle pieces, so that we can see.

Speaker 1 39:42

You know, what do we want to do in a way that works for you, because people are so, so individual that you want to feel, ultimately, in control us with some questions that we should we could start with asking ourselves, like to start getting very clear with our, maybe our unconscious habits or, wherever we're at today, to start taking some steps to make some changes um, I, instead of the questions, because I'll have to noodle on that one, but I'll give you a very specific to do takeaway.

Speaker 2 40:17

Um, one of of the things that I find Desi is that people have complicated their finances, and it is partly what causes money fog, and so a great takeaway would be to simplify your account structure and close as many excess accounts as you possibly can. You know, it depends on the country, it depends on the structure in terms of your banking system, but people don't need as many accounts as they tend to use, right? I advocate for one primary checking account Some countries call it a current account one primary credit account, and so on and so forth. But because the banks have made it so easy to open up accounts, people have too many accounts, and the more accounts you have, the more money fog you're in and the harder it is to figure out what you spend because you're spreading your spending out among so many accounts. So I'm a huge advocate for elegant financial simplicity.

Speaker 2 41:33

Elegant financial simplicity is when you're debating, you know, should I spend money on X? I would have them ask what is the real need underneath this purchase Meaning? What is this really about? What is the real need that I'm trying to meet here, and is there a more creative way that I could get this need met? I would also say a great question is is this purchase going to give me long-term or short-term satisfaction? There's nothing wrong with short-term satisfaction. It just means that you might want to spend less money because it's really about the short-term. So just naming it you know, I'm not going to care about this next week means maybe buy the cheaper pair of earrings, right, just be. You know, this is a conversation that you have with yourself, right, and then I would also say this is one. I'll just leave them with this question what does your future self think of this item you're debating purchasing? Right, or it could be a trip, or you know, it could be anything.

Practical Takeaways and Closing

Speaker 2 42:38

But what does my future self think about this spending decision? Is she excited for you or is she worried? And really bringing your future self in to the conversation when you're debating spending money is just a beautiful, beautiful way to go deeper around your relationship to money beautiful way to go deeper around your relationship to money.

Speaker 1 43:02

Those are great questions. So, before leaving our listeners, I wanted to ask you some parting thoughts. If the listener back home is going to take anything away from this conversation, what would you want that one thing to be?

Speaker 2 43:13

That last question, which is, really start talking with your future self about what does she think about what you're doing right now with money. That will really move you forward and she may feel great or she may feel like you know, let's investigate some of the spending or some earning, or maybe we could start investing. I mean, I don't know what your future self is gonna say, but she's got a lot of wisdom for you. And so turn to your future self and really start asking what does she think about all the stuff around money? And you know there's some real wisdom there.

Speaker 1 43:51

And just one more that I thought of Are there any money myths we can just bust right now, some important money myths that you think are worth busting?

Speaker 2 43:58

Yeah, I think the big myth is more money does not equal more happiness.

Speaker 1 44:04

Thank you so much for all of those insights From what I've gotten today is that we need to be very clear, becoming self-aware as well, and also aligning what we spend on with what truly matters to us. Is there anything else that you wanted to share that we have not touched on?

Speaker 2 44:22

No, I would say, if your listeners are curious about diving into money fog and you know taking a quiz to look at both their money personality as well as their, you know what level of fog might they be in and what does that mean Then I would send them to the website and download a free quiz. I would send them to seattlemoneycoachcom. You could also go to michaelannvolterracom, but that's just harder to spell and there's so much free stuff. What I do, desi, is I write the Awakened Money newsletter. That has, all of the well, in my opinion, all these deep thoughts around money that I think could be really helpful to people, and that's what I would most want people to have this free wellspring of deep thought, deep thinking around money, to really move people forward. So if they grab any of the quizzes on the website, then they can have the Awaken Money newsletter. It comes out once a month.

Speaker 1 45:25

And your book your Rides Above the Money Fog. We'll also add a link to the show notes, but where can people find you online if they want to reach out and where's the best place?

Speaker 2 45:35

All the socials are under MichaelannVolterra Pardon me, michael and V. So whether it's Facebook or it's Instagram or it's, my personal favorite is Pinterest, just because that's what I hang out with at night on the couch and looking at Pinterest. So we're super excited about our Pinterest page just because a lot of this is just deeper thinking around money and these kind of juicy little tidbits, and they can find all of that under Michael and V.

Speaker 1 46:03

Thank you so much. If this episode has resonated with you or someone you know who can benefit from it, please share it and hopefully we can all start to live more, less anxiously and more financially free. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 46:17

Thank you, desi, it's great. Thank you so much for having me.