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A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
🥧 A podcast where we curiously explore nutrition, fitness, mindset, sports, wellness, & beyond. ☕️Host @parastoobadie
A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
Triumph Beyond the Scale: Embracing Body Image in Combat Sports
Have you ever stood at the crossroads of athletic ambition and societal expectations, feeling the tug-of-war on your body image?
Join me, P2, with guests Kelsey Underwood and Tayler Kelly, as we navigate the turbulent waters of body image in combat sports. Amid the gruelling demands of weight classes and the relentless pursuit of gold, these resilient women share their unvarnished truths—from battling body issues to devouring nutritional knowledge.
This episode isn't just about the fight in the ring; it's about the fight within. Kelsey and Tayler open up about the pressures of shrinking to fit into weight divisions and the toll it takes on their relationship with food and self-perception. We tackle the heavy responsibility coaches carry in guiding athletes through weight management and the transformative power of a healthier, more joyful approach to nutrition. Their stories serve as a testament to the strength of character over the scale, capturing how personal growth and a deeper understanding of one’s body can lead to triumph beyond the podium.
We wrap up with a rallying cry for self-awareness and the celebration of one’s unique journey in fitness. The episode pulsates with the energy of discovery, as we emphasize the importance of listening to your body, the value of supportive networks, and the role of continuous learning. Whether you're a young female athlete or simply someone striving for balance, this conversation is an empowering reminder of the power that lies in trusting yourself and embracing the journey. Touch gloves with us for this inspiring session that packs a punch worthy of a championship belt.
To connect with Tayler, follow her on instagram @ tkels_
To connect with Kelsey, follow her on instagram @ smoochie29
Website: https://parastoobadie.com/podcast/
Email: asliceofhumblepiewithp2@gmail.com
Instagram: @asliceofhumblepiewithp2
Welcome back to a slice of humble pie. I'm your host P2. I'm a nutrition and fitness professional, a lover of pie and a curious human on planet Earth. I've been on a tour of Southeast Asia training Muay Thai, making new connections and learning more about myself and sports. I'm in Saigon, Vietnam, during the recording of today's episode, which is the first segment of a series of body image and sports.
Speaker 1:Now, before getting a bit more specific about today, I do want to talk about why I want to cover body image and sports. In order to do that, I'm going to share a quote from the National Eating Disorders Association. Sport is a great way to build self-esteem, promote physical conditioning and demonstrate the value of teamwork, but not all athletic stressors are positive. The pressure to excel in sport and an overemphasis on body weight, body composition and body shape can pose a significant risk for the development of eating disorders among athletes. Now, I am not a mental health professional and not everything we talk about is going to be about eating disorders, but, as you can see, there's a lot that we can talk about and in future segments there will be professionals to talk about some of these things for sure. But let's focus on today.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is featuring women in combat, specifically kickboxing and Muay Thai. Now we have two powerhouse women who I'll introduce in a moment, but I want to share a few other things as well. My relationships with these guests today holds multiple layers. I am proud to call them my teammates at Ottawa Fight and Fitness, which is my home gym back in Canada. My friends and queens, we have a group thread where we're constantly popping each other up. Also, I have the privilege of working with both of them in some capacity for their nutrition preparations, and so I've had many vulnerable conversations, some of which we will touch on in this podcast episode today.
Speaker 1:Combat sports are part of weight class sports. In Canada and most of the world, you're matched to an opponent at a specific weight class and at a similar level of experience in a high pressure environment. Naturally, the pressure goes up as the competition level increases. Now all of this is already challenging, but it opens up another layer of obstacles for women. We have limited women in combat sports to begin with, which narrows down to competition pool, and women come in all shapes and sizes. The ways that the categories are set up is an important topic to really understand the conversation we're about to have today. Now, both of these incredible athletes just registered for kickboxing nationals at heavyweight, with their weight classes ranging from 147 pounds to 154 pounds. The language alone is concerning because they're fit athletes who are 5'6 and 5'11, and the category that they stand up for doesn't match the men's counterpart, where it's referred to as light, middle or welterweight for the same weight ranges. Now for added contacts. I fight at around 140 pounds.
Speaker 1:In this episode, you'll be hearing the experience of three different women from various backgrounds and different perceptions of our bodies in sport. Now on to the introductions, introducing Kelsey Underwood, a hilarious, stunning badass with extra sultry hair who is a literal caregiver. She has a huge heart, who makes her alter ego fighter persona even more fascinating. Kelsey started training kickboxing in 2018 as an outlet for a toxic relationship. She grew up in gymnastics and has always enjoyed an active lifestyle, and she trained hard and grew quickly, soon representing Canada at two Pan Am Games and most recently came home with the gold of the 2022 Pan Am Games. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Now joining Kelsey on this podcast is Taylor Kelly, a beautiful person inside and out who lifts up everyone around her. She has a Bachelor of Science, is a certified personal trainer and nutrition coach who accepts clients in person and online. She started Muay Thai only a couple of years ago, but she's the hardest worker in the room. Quickly she catapulted herself into champ status, winning fights, gaining belt, and already earned herself a title fight coming up March 30th in Edmonton for the WBC Canadian Amateur title. Wee Taylor is like a younger sister to me, so what she's endured and who she's grown into brings me extra pride and joy.
Speaker 1:This conversation does get personal and triggering. We talk about weight classes, body dysmorphia, disordered eating and more. Make sure you're in a good headspace to listen and take breaks if you need to. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome Kelsey and Taylor to a slice of humble pie. Let's get right into it. I want to play a word association to start, so I'm just going to say a couple of words or phrases and I want you to respond with the very first reaction, the very first adjective or word that comes to mind Sound good Body.
Speaker 2:Dysmorphia Naked Naked.
Speaker 1:Okay, second word Performance.
Speaker 2:Anxiety Issue.
Speaker 1:Mmm Champion.
Speaker 2:Mindset In progress, coaches, corner Uh important.
Speaker 1:Women in sports.
Speaker 2:You said women and I just thought only women, only yeah.
Speaker 1:Women in sports 100% Representation of women in combat sports In media.
Speaker 2:Up and coming? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're going to dive in and get to know you a little bit better. What's been this is a question for both of you. Feel free to jump in whenever what's been your overall experience with being in your body and in sport?
Speaker 2:Sure, when I started off in sports I would probably likely from when I was a kid, but I started competitive soccer when I was like 13. And I think I had, you know, no body issues. Then I loved my body. I loved what my body could do. I was fast, I was proud, I was happy with it. And then, as I got older, um, I started to get a little bit insecure about how thin I was actually and I really wanted the like Kim Kardashian body, like I wanted to build my booty.
Speaker 2:I went down that path of, but probably like grade 12, um time, and bulking went bad. I messed up my metabolism. I gained weight everywhere but my legs, I gained weight in my arms and stomach, my like just everywhere that I didn't want it. I put it on and then I had a hard time losing it.
Speaker 2:When I started Muay Thai and what's, starting a weight specific sport, I came to Muay Thai pretty late, uh, you know, just just a couple of years ago, so in my 20s, um, after a couple of years of messing with my metabolism. So you know, then coming into a weight specific sport after trying to gain weight, then trying to lose weight, I had a lot of different feelings about being in my body and a lot less like proud of my body Um than when I was younger. So I was really lucky to have a really positive childhood around my body. I think that, you know, has helped me build a healthier relationship with food now. But uh, yeah, there was at the beginning of my Muay Thai journey, so I think that was a little bit of a struggle.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that and taking us to the chapters of your life, from childhood, Taylor, to now Kelsey. Do you relate what has been your experience?
Speaker 2:So I had a bit of a different experience in you, taylor. When I was a kid, my first sport that I started out with was gymnastics. Very early on I flew boots and you can't beat a wheat gymnast with boots, so it actually worked against me and it was one of the reasons I got pushed out of that sport. You know, fast forward 25 years later and I've been in Muay Thai. I definitely have some discomfort with, for example, we fight in sports, right. So when we weigh in, my body looks a certain way and by the time I fight hours later, my body looks completely different and I actually drank water for the first time in a while and my abs aren't quite. So I definitely when the photos come out and stuff, and I definitely struggle sometimes with that idea of my body changing that fast.
Speaker 1:So for the sports we've covered soccer, gymnastics and they all have different. You know you had different experiences and before we get a little deeper into Muay Thai, because now we're about to talk weight cuts what do you think is? How do I verbalize this? Because you said that gymnastics, right, had these different weight expectations, and then there is a whole different expectation for soccer and you both have very different experiences. But what are we getting wrong in sport in general? I know that's a really loaded question, but like how, how is it that you had such very different experiences in your you were girls in sports this whole time.
Speaker 2:Big. Just based on those two examples soccer, gymnastics your body as a soccer player has to look and work in such a different way. And then gymnast, you have to have a certain body type and so, genetically speaking, you know, it doesn't matter how hard a kid's working. And I was a kid, you know. I wasn't like in high school gymnast. I was six, seven years old. No, that's my started. But that as I progressed and obviously my body grew in different ways, my talent was still there but my body didn't match the sport anymore. And that's a struggle because it's not. That wasn't on me, that's genetics you know I need. So it wasn't like I wasn't spinning the work but like didn't the high body just stop matching the sport?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting. That's really interesting. I relate. So my background is rugby and I always say the words that rugby saved my life.
Speaker 1:Most people, unless you've been exposed to the sport earlier or you've had family that's played, you don't really know what rugby is until high school. It's when it's introduced, especially my generation. And so when I found out and I showed up, I fell in love because I thought that my legs were too big. At Quadzillas has the opposite body image, thinking I'm too short, I'm too round. And then in rugby, I found it fascinating because the both of you were talking about two different sports, but rugby had all the body types. Every single position had a different body type. So there was a spot for the tall, lean person, there was a spot for the short person. So I think that's when I started to really embrace my huh. They come in all shapes and sizes and then. So then I and now I'm very thankful for that because it'll allow the transition to other sports and that confidence that I definitely needed.
Speaker 1:But yeah, we can speak a lot more about it, because after that I did powerlifting, I did bodybuilding that was great for your and then entering Muay Thai. So all of those sports as well. Yeah, let's get. Let's get down to the nitty gritty now. So we already talked a little bit about it. You both talked about some of the discomfort. So for our listeners, just for context, when you compete in combat sports, muay Thai being one of them, it's a weight class specific sport and for most people, unless it's decided in advance, unless if you do not make the weight, you do not compete. Those are some of the pressures to work with. So you have both been required to make a specific weight in this high pressure environment. How did the experience of making weight, then seeing the scale shift post fight and noticing the changes to your body impact you?
Speaker 2:When I first started I was, I struggled with the idea of so the weight classes, how it goes for females, if anything over 154 is open, so you could be 155 pounds and fighting a 300 pound, which is my first fight.
Speaker 2:That's what happened, because I didn't have the one, so that was my first experience getting into the ring, but I was getting hit by someone who was nearly twice my weight, and so I had a really hard time with that, because then I decided Muay Thai decided that that was not suitable for me going forward, which forced me to make a decision so I'm either going to sit in that category and be at my normal weight or we are still cut, and so that's what we started doing.
Speaker 2:And so I started changing the diet and changing my body and definitely started changing the way I was seeing food and definitely started creating like a very unhealthy relationship with food, and it was creating this panic and every day I'm stepping on the scale like 15 times, and there was periods where I was bringing the scale with me everywhere I went and it just created this very unhealthy attachment to the number on the scale and it correlated with everything I did. It correlated with how many steps I was getting in the day because that meant I could you know what was I eating and then you know, like it just attached to everything and it's like a 24 hour consuming thing in my brain when we have to make that weight.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm sorry. That was your very first experience. That's horrifying and yeah, I think you speak to. I think unfortunately it's a common experience. You're describing a lot of disordered eating that I think borderline not that I can diagnose, but it sounds like eating disorder and definitely orthorexia and an obsession. And you know that's when something goes the wrong way. And before we get into Taylor, your story, one thing that I just thought of that popped into my head was one of the conversations about weight class sports and having different weights so that it's safer for the athlete. But it was very interesting that your very first experience was very not safe.
Speaker 2:Well, and as a woman, I don't see 154 as big. You know what I mean. And yet what is it called? It's called super heavy weights.
Speaker 2:That doesn't really go well for my ego. Yeah. So my first weight cut experience. I got to the gym that I had my first fight out of and I was 175 pounds and so, you know, super heavy weights beyond it, and they had basically told me if I want to fight, I have to make 147 or I don't fight. So they didn't really give me any other options. They're like your build, your height, you have weight to lose. If you want to fight, you want your first fight, that's great, make 147 or no.
Speaker 2:So I started, you know, trying to get my weight down. Running training twice a day definitely was overtry. And then they're like, okay, like how far away are you? I was like, within I think I probably got to like one high 150s and they're like, okay, good, we can give you a fight. Now you can like cut the rest.
Speaker 2:And I was like getting nervous about, you know, a water cut. I had never done it before. The last time I would have been, you know, below 150, would have been in high school. So I was like getting nervous, even though now I'm very experienced with water cuts and I wouldn't be nervous in the high 150s, I was pretty nervous. And I was talking to one of the coaches there being like, okay, this is what I'm eating, and the response I got was you're still eating carbs. You're like six weeks away from your fight, why are you still eating carbs? Why are you still eating fruit? Why are you still eating this? Like cut out whole food group, stop eating carbs. You shouldn't be eating bread. You should have stopped eating bread a long time ago.
Speaker 2:And I was like shocked. I was like, oh, I thought I was eating really healthy, like I was eating very healthy, but I had never heard this before that like you should cut out carbs to. You know, cut weight. Now we know, you know you manipulate carbs in the last week or so but not six weeks out and I had a miserable first experience.
Speaker 2:I got down to 145 actually the day before my fight, with the water loading and every thing, so I needed no sweating to make weight. But I was miserable, like no carbs for six weeks, training twice a day, overtraining, and just like I listened to everything that coach said to me with wide eyes and like they were, you know, I put them on a pedestal. The coaches and I remember you know being told, lift my shirt up so that they can see how much you know, estimate how much body fat I have and how much weight I have to lose, and like squeeze my above my hips and like, oh yeah, all of that, and it's just. That was my first experience and then, when I came to auto-fight and fitness, it was such an improvement in the conversations that we had about food and the conversations about weight cuts and, you know, diet and your mass of improvement.
Speaker 1:Holy shit, taylor.
Speaker 1:We have had this conversation before and, as you were talking right now, you can obviously see me on video. I'm definitely tearing up because I just have chills and I felt it and it was just making me angry as fuck as a coach and as an athlete, and I feel like we have to talk about the responsibility. You're in your twenties, but we were also talking about the younger versions of you, but I'm just going to go on a little rant here about the responsibility coaches have on the influence of their athletes and how you are not just there to make weight but, like we are people, you are responsible for a human being and if you don't know what you're doing, fucking say so and go get professional support, and you don't know the consequences you will have to this person. And I am so glad that you are where you are and that you've evolved your relationship with food and fitness and entering the competitive nature you have now Having a relationship with food. I'm going to take a second to breathe and have some water before I burst that crying.
Speaker 1:Kelsey, would you like to speak on that? Just need a minute.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry that you went through that. It's incredible to me the influence because you're right, we do put our coaches on by the school. You know you, let me look up to them and we're constantly trying to piece them and you know, soak you in the end and right. So what they say is the viable. You know what I mean. So I've had this great experience with wonderful coaches and I've had a good old experience as well, and it's amazing how lasting those effects. Thank you.
Speaker 1:We've all had experiences with different types of coaching. Right, you take a little bit from everybody and you start to learn more about yourself as an athlete, and then you know what to apply, you know what's actually like, you know you're open to constructive criticism and feedback. But then you realize that sometimes, like something is in the right approach for you and then we take self-responsibility in ourselves as athletes. Do you feel that now you have sort of adopted that a bit more, that you can take what coaches say and not put them on a pedestal and see them as human beings?
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually it was even since, like that first fight that I went and got my nutrition certification to become a nutrition coach. So that kind of motivated me to go get my own, do my own research and stuff. And my certification has nothing to do with weight, specific sports or sports nutrition. So I still seek help outside of myself, like I don't deal with my nutrition all on my own. I get help from you, p2 and others and, yeah, I take everybody's opinion, as you know just that their opinion. I'm not eating a diet that's going to make me miserable again and affect my like mental, physical health, energy, sleep, like now. Diet affects everything and I love your relationship with food perspective of like it's also enjoyment and joy and like bigger than just fuel.
Speaker 1:Thank you and I applaud you for seeking that further education and you're doing phenomenal for everyone around you and for your clients, right? Because we decided that that's not the experience we're going to pass on to other people, so yay to that. Actually, you already spoke about it, so let's just add a little bit more to the support question. Do you feel like you had the appropriate support to navigate the various challenges that you face with body image, with weight fluctuation and training in sport? And the support could be coaches, teammates, organizations like as a whole?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's something. That's why we talked about the post fights, everything that comes with after the fight. Everything's about the fight key. You know everyone's together and through it we're going through it all together. We're going to war together, you know, and everyone's together for a fight camp and the second the fight is over good, bad, injury, you know. Whatever comes after it. It's very isolating and I think, as I've gone through my fight career, I've created people in my life who I can go to after the fights and talk to them about something. But it's still super isolating.
Speaker 2:No one understands how you know fat or ugly I feel the day after the fight because I've actually just drained all the water and I'm eating all the food and I'm eating like the body that I see the next day, especially when you lose. You know what I mean and like so. There's no post-waking. All the major sport comes during the camp. I've felt that. Yeah, I felt that and honestly, after my first fight I told you guys I dieted down to 145. The next day I was 167 and had no clue what to do with myself. I was like 22 pounds. I didn't even eat anything yet, like I ate one burrito and a bag of popcorn. What is going on? Why am I 22 pounds heavier and I was like. Now I'm starting from scratch again and just like you know the mind, I mean I'm just going to swear, for lack of a better word, but the way it does something to your mind when you know, you just see yourself gain that much weight in less than 24 hours.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, it's a mind fuck, it's a mind fuck. It's straight up yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we can't swear. Oh, absolutely, I think, I think, oh, yeah, yeah, it's. It's be your authentic selves. You know, I feel that for both of you, and I've been there myself several times in different variations so what I feel we're missing in fights and this has come up previously. Actually, this piece came up with Marco when we were talking about holistic wellness in combat sports. Go back and listen to that episode if you haven't.
Speaker 1:We were talking about establishing seasons and structure, because that is a bit more expected in other sports like it, like in soccer, for example, or in rugby, there is seasons, whereas there isn't seasons for fighting. Really, you have to establish that within. If you're in fight camp, post fight camp, what's the structure? So I do feel that as a collective, we need to yes, kelsey, agree with you that we have to talk about it more and sort of demand that structure across the board, from organization conversations to our teammates, to coaches, to friends that you rely on which is fabulous that you have that network Because that isolating experience isn't just hard but it is actually quite dangerous. When we're talking about disordered eating and eating disorders, when it comes to shifting that, it's a reality of the fact that it could really fuck with your head. How else do you think we could improve it?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think just more of us need to stick together and more of us just need to talk about it. I just being a fighter is super isolating. What we do is super niche. It's a very isolating sport. It's a very isolating style. It's a lifestyle. You know what I mean. So there's only us who actually understand and truly get it, and so I think the more people who we surround ourselves with who understand it, then we can continue to create a bigger network of fellow fighters, fellow female combat fighters, and open up just more dialogue, because it's like anything else, the second we normalize talking about it, the stigma's gone. Yes, kelsey.
Speaker 1:She's doing the finger finger gun dance, everybody. Do you have anything more to add to that, taylor?
Speaker 2:Oh, I agree, I think, talking about it and it was something that I was completely not expecting After my first fight to see the scale go like that if somebody had told me, oh dude, 20 pounds in one day is a normal thing. When you've just done that to your body, then I think it kind of like shifted my perspective a bit, that it's like okay, this is normal. I'm not starting from scratch, my body's just holding on to extra water because it was stressed for six weeks. Yeah, I think, if you know you're not shocked and it's not as much as a mind boggling thing when you're expecting it, when you're not expecting it, and you see that and you worked so hard for so long to get the weight off and down because this is important to you, then you realize, well, is it going to take me as long the next time? Is it going to take me longer? What is this dude? My hormones? What's the negative effect of all of this?
Speaker 1:Really good questions. To add to that too, it's good to have those expectations, to know that it's a possibility for us to gain. But now all three of us can speak on it, having gone through it several times, that it's not sustainable to gain and lose 20, 30 plus pounds. Every time We've had conversations about how can we make it more sustainable, how do we make sure that we're closer to our fight weight so that it is not this overhaul of our lives, that the percentage technically is 3% to 5%, less than 5% away from our fight weight? If you're doing a water cut so that you're not relying on being massively depleted to then having this rebound experience because, especially if you're in a tournament or if you have multiple fights lined up, you can't be bouncing back and forth 20 pounds it's extremely hard on your body. We've all been there at least one or two experiences, but that's why we're talking about this right now.
Speaker 1:To say that there is a better way Sounds like a commercial, but there is to make sure that it's sustainable. If you are an athlete, especially a woman, female combat athlete that's trying to do this for a while, can be relying on water cuts and just depleting yourself and exhausting, because that just really messes emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually. Do the work in between, like Kelsey and Taylor already talked about. It's all the phases, it's the fight camp, it's after the fight, it's what's happening between fights, it's what's happening when you don't even have a fight. How are you looking at every other part of your food, your sleep, your relationships? Because, yeah, it's isolating enough, don't make it harder. We've spoken about this a little bit when we were talking about being skinny and boobs as we were younger, but I'm just curious now, as developed women, have you ever felt conflicted between developing muscle mass for performance, changing your body for sport and adhering to social expectations of what femininity means? How do you navigate that?
Speaker 2:I've been to tomboying my whole life trying to live in or maintain an idea that's never beyond my reader, so unfortunately I don't struggle with that.
Speaker 1:Okay, but also though that hair.
Speaker 2:I would say for me the two align and that they're both. I'm trying to get smaller for my sport and femininity feels like it's telling me to get smaller as well. They kind of align For me. I went through a phase of I was wearing all boys' clothes, I shaved my head, I had a very like. I had a phase where I really wanted to look androgynous. And then now I'm not in that phase anymore and I do want to be smaller for many reasons.
Speaker 2:There's more opponents, as Kelsey talked about. Like the heaviest weight class is 150-something pounds. I haven't ever been able to find an opponent at 156. I've fought once at 153, but all the opponents are at 147. And even some of my opponents that I fought at 147, they're now fighting at 139. So the desire to get smaller and be more in touch with my feminine side kind of like both align with you know, they're both the same goal. Being smaller feels more feminine and being smaller feels more sustainable for my sport. It feels like I'll get more fight. It feels like you know the way to go. But I'm 5'11. For context, I've always wanted to be smaller. The first thing people tell me when they see me oh my God, you're so tall. Well, I didn't notice, thanks, you know like I've always wanted to be smaller, so that's not like new for me, but wanting to be more feminine is definitely newer.
Speaker 1:I think that context piece is really important. I'm glad that you brought up your height, because that's the thing where everyone wants something different, and I'm 5'3" and I always had the opposite, where I want to get bigger and command a room because I felt overlooked, which is why I just got louder, and so that's really interesting how we navigated that differently. I have a question, a follow-up, though when do we draw the line? Or let's just talk about it, not even the line? What's the crossover between die culture telling us that lean is better and femininity? How do we interpret femininity in this context? In the first place, and then how does that relate to die culture telling us that lean is better? Just away from fighting for a second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. I mean because I struggled with that when I was a kid, right, I didn't feel like a woman when I was in grade 12 and stuff, because I was pretty skinny, I was double zero and yoga pants were in style and I was jealous of all the girls who actually had a butt in them and I didn't have one. So I now feel like I've switched from how I felt before. Whereas I wanted to build a bum, I kind of talked about that now wanting to be like okay, you can go. Now it's kind of dead weight. Now I built you, that's great, you can head out. And that has to do with wanting to be faster. And, for context, the wanting to be smaller is something like I have a boyfriend who's shorter than me.
Speaker 2:I do feel like femininity to me feels like a little package, you know, like a small, like to me, like a woman is like, yeah, like, and I love women who are confident with their muscles and whatever. I love my muscles, but still the desire to be smaller, as in, shorter and like shorter and curvy and compact, and yes, but I'm starting to love my like long limbs for this sport and like wanting to be fast and tall and adapt my style to that with long kicks and long punches, but that I haven't really quite connected that with my femininity At all. That doesn't feel. That doesn't feel like it matches up to me Like feminine. It's probably old fashioned way of looking at femininity as, like you know, a small little flower in the distance, but it's like, yeah, it's to me, it's not big and like tall and buff and that's what I am, so it's okay, we love it anyway.
Speaker 1:Thank you for the honesty and the nuance in that right, because there is nuance. Like I realized it was a loaded question, because that's the point of this conversation. Like you can't exactly answer that and we're we add up so many labels of like femininity, body positivity, neutrality, this or that, but it's like the person in it. You know you're describing something that, in my vision, was something like what I want to attain, like yeah, damn, I want to be 511. I wonder how the world looks, and so it's really interesting how, like in different women bodies, we're, we're all trying to figure it out. We're just still trying to figure it out. So, kelsey, I see you nodding. Where's your, where's your head in all of this?
Speaker 2:I've never thought of myself as a girly girl and I've never strived to be a grade, so this sport really matches with my personality on that level. As far as feminine, feminine, when I'm a niggie goes.
Speaker 2:When I'm a female goes, I just I'm, I'm very. I had a very different spirits of jello. I I root curves pretty early but I hide them. I hide them in the baggy shirts and the baggy shorts and the. You know. But when I, when I want to rocket, I do, and when I want to but I don't, I don't associate my feminine feminine.
Speaker 1:Say that three times real fast Don't.
Speaker 2:And then the V you remember finding Nemo and then I'm, and I'm, and I'm, I love that for you, I love that for you, I love that for you, I love that for you, I love that for you, I love that for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, you're, you're, you're yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't associate that with my strength and with my power and with my you know like I feel most strong and sexy and empowered when I'm in a baggy T-shirt and shorts and touching the shit at a Sunday. That is when my I feel most confident. You know what I mean. I just I don't have that same association. I also look like an idiot and I'm trying to walk in heels, so I just don't do it. So I just I just don't do it. I want to embrace my best. I wash my hair.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. I love that you spoke. I was just about to ask you when do you both feel that you are at your most confident? And you just said when you're wearing baggy clothes, just beating something up. So, Taylor, when do you feel that you are at your most confident?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely in the gym. I mean I'm I'm a full-time personal trainer, so I live in sneakers and yoga pants and Lula lemon sweaters and you know I feel the most confident in a gym. I like going for athleisure, you know, to workout clothes when I feel the most confident. And it's funny I was talking to Sasha, our coach, above this today. Like I used to have claws like long ass, decorated fake nails before I started Muay Thai and it was so. It was a sad day when I had to decide, you know, like no, we're having snubs from now on because like the nails don't work in the gloves and I'm like I kind of miss my nails. Like I was most confident before with like nails done, hair done, eyelashes, like I went through that phase too. And it's like now I'm kind of in between, where I'm like, okay, I don't need all of that to feel confident, but also I can be in touch with my feminine side and be sporty and you know, eight people up for fun. Yeah, I laugh at the sport challenges.
Speaker 2:I love. I love that the sport challenges the stereotypical idea of what a sexy female looks like. The idea of a girl being a fighter was never a feminine concept, and now that there's more of us coming up and doing it, and there's still, there's still people tearing down women. But the women we're racing their goddess like bodies and their way ins, you know, like rocking some sexy lingerie and you know. And good for you, queen, good for you. But then you got these trash trolls on the internet, calling them all sorts of things.
Speaker 1:They are trash trolls that's such a good name for them, but I love that. First of all, I just want to take a second to point out if you guys missed this about that supportive comment about like where the lingerie, where the athlete leads, you're like whatever. If you're genuinely in your confidence, most women are supporting you and if you're not, then it's. It's like you're tearing yourselves down and tearing each other down and that's like why that's just not helpful for anybody. Well, we're all similar minded so I think I have a similar answer. But yeah, I feel like I'm my most confident.
Speaker 1:Rugby world had me wearing like short under arm or spandex. That I've maintained this whole time. So when I just swapped it with Muay Thai shorts, just put that on top of the tiny, and especially after you've just done something incredibly empowering like some ridiculous workout or a fight class and you're sweating buckets and you're, I just feel the most confident in that. But the opposite of you, kelsey, I really do love wearing six inch stilettos. Like I can work six inch stilettos. Maybe that's cause I do aspire to be taller. So I'm just like kind of want to carry myself like I'm like yeah, bitch, I'm six feet, let's go. Conclusion of that wear whatever you want, own it. There's no answer. There's no answer. Okay, so we have a couple of questions one to sort of make it a little bit more personal and then one for our listeners. So, now that we know what we know, can you discuss any strategies you're using right now to help balance your weight management with your overall health and performance goals?
Speaker 2:I'm using people who know what they're doing. Because I don't, so my biggest. The best thing I can do is ask other people like you who know what they're doing. I don't have any background in nutrition. I have no background in personal fitness, and you both are thriving in those fields, so I'm well aware it's not one of my strengths, so I just use these wonderful resources.
Speaker 1:Out source, out source. I know Taylor's about to talk about this, as I. Coaches need coaches. We're all human beings, whether you're in it or not. Everyone needs a support system. Back to one of the previous things that I think Kelsey said earlier Good for you for outsourcing. Get help, taylor, alright bye.
Speaker 2:One thing that I've had a flippy floppy relationship with is counting calories and how you can turn it into a diet. Or you can use it as information. You can use it to get to know your body and you can use it in an empowering way where, like you know, you can make stuff work. You can see how things affect your body, you can adjust your own changes. You can, you know, go to a coach with a chart of hey, here's what happens when I do this and here's what happens when I do that. And I have a bachelor in science. I loved labs, I loved doing science experiments and it really kind of shifted my perspective from hating counting calories because I had a bad relationship with it the first time I tried it, but I had just turned it into a restrictive diet and not like oh, okay, so we don't feel good at this amount, so let's change it. I would try and stick it out. Stick it out, stick it out Like. This is the amount I chose to get out until it was okay, we're tracking nothing. Now we're going complete opposite direction and screw the diet. So you know, getting that little bit of nuance in the equation of like okay, if I don't feel good at 2,500 calories. Let's see how I feel on 27. Okay, I feel okay at 27. Maybe I'm not losing the amount of weight I need to lose. Let's try 26. Okay, you know, like you can, you can tweak things and I think you know it's giving the power back to yourself. If you let it and you don't turn it into a diet, you can use it as information and that's kind of the route I'm going right now.
Speaker 2:What I'm playing with I'll be. I have a fight lined up at the end of March, at the end of April, the beginning of June, the end of June. I have a lot of you know stuff coming up, so I can't afford to be going from 145 to 167 overnight. So, you know, playing around with okay, we're this far out, we're going to, we're going to do this, we're this close, we're going to do this. It feels good right now and that's what I'm kind of playing with. And yeah, I check in with P2, I check in with other people like does this make? Does this make sense? Am I, you know, am I asking too much of my body right now? Am I listening to my body? Check in with myself, check in with others, and yes, it's helpful.
Speaker 1:That is phenomenal, taylor. I am so happy for you and what an empowering perspective and I'm so glad that you said that right. You have a bachelor in science, you are educated, you are well versed and, like nobody on this planet can be more, can know more about your body than you. It is our like self responsibility beyond just sport but just like you know the whole like, take initiative for your own health and your own body, and I love that you're saying that, because everything's a tool. A tool works how you want it to work and if it's not working, then switch tools.
Speaker 1:But we have associated calorie counting or being aware of our intake with disordered eating immediately and that it's all part of diet culture. It's like, well, it's not so black and white, it's not so dichotomous. You have to recognize that people come from different places and when we are talking about a weight class sport, we have to talk about this shit, because that's why you leave people isolated and they're flip flopping back and forth. Or we can address some of these issues, talk through them, find more people that are relating and then make it so that we take the day and power back. I love that you said that.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:It can be empowering or it can be destructive, but it is your perspective on the tool and maybe you're not there right now because you weren't I know you weren't and I you know, and it's that's okay, you're allowed to work towards it. And if it's not where you're at right now either, like we mentioned, kelsey, I know previously you were talking about how you were excessively checking your weight. Sometimes that number can also cross over to unhealthy. But I always want to just to make sure we wrap this up for our listeners of like this isn't necessarily a bad thing when we say healthy eating or performance eating. It's just the tool, the things of it.
Speaker 1:As when you are getting your paycheck and then you're like where the hell did my paycheck go. It's like when you have money in the bank, you kind of you're aware of it. You're like, okay, well, I've got to pay rent, I'm going to pay for my phone bill, I'm going to pay for my groceries. You have your aware of what you have starting with so you can make plans. And that's basically the same when we're talking about calories and macros. And then when we start to look at it more from from a perspective of science and the tool versus adding worth to it, because you're not any less than because of a specific calorie. So fuck that noise, but thank you so much for what you said.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, sometimes as fighters we value discipline so highly. So when you pick a number and you're like trying to stick with it and like, let's say, you know you pick 1800 calories and you can't stick with it because it's just not enough food for an athlete at all, not even close. And it's like then the shame that comes with wow, I call myself a fighter and I can't even stick to a diet, like I can't even be disciplined. You know, with my food, the shame that comes with that and you know where where that puts you and that's not a good mindset going into a fight. So, you know, I think approaching it as not a diet is so important.
Speaker 2:It's like you know, counting your macros and being aware of your calories and seeing what it does to your body is not a diet. It's information and, like you said, it's a tool. You can use the hammer effectively, you know, or you can use it as a weapon and it's like it. Just it's just how you use it and I wasn't using it right before and I'm, you know, working on using it much better and it this is the first fight camp where I've been like, yeah, I'm going to stick with this, this is working and this will work and this will help in between fights and for the busy, you know season that I have coming up.
Speaker 1:Your energy is so contagious right now, Taylor, I just want to point that out. I'm sure people can hear it, but you sound so grounded and like it's just really awesome to hear because you it's I think you used to work connection earlier like the athlete, your potential, your capabilities, your own mindset, Like they're all connecting and I can feel it through the damn screen, so I'm so excited for you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, peter, I appreciate you. You guys are so self aware of you guys use these words what's work? You guys just know so much information about yourself I had three. I think you know too, kelsey. Nobody knows you better than you.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:No, I just idolize. I don't know. You guys are very, very self aware. You guys are very educated on this part of it and I think it's amazing.
Speaker 1:I am fully aware Self aware, I am not, and that's fine, because I am.
Speaker 2:Of course, the people.
Speaker 1:Self awareness for me to be aware that I shouldn't drink a bottle of wine at night.
Speaker 2:I'm aware of that.
Speaker 1:But the one thing I know we're joking but the one thing, though, kelsey, is that, like sure, you want to outsource some of the strategy for nutrition, but you are also self aware, the only person that is in your body, in your feels, and to give that to anyone else is very disempowering, because no coach, no doctor, no practitioner, no any kind, should have that power over you in your body, and so it's like this is also I want to.
Speaker 1:Actually, you just brought up something that I just thought about. As you said, that I'm like this was a skill that I have built and I have witnessed Taylor building it, even with her having her educational background. This is not something that just happened. We don't just talk about this just like rolling out of bed. I have cultivated that vocabulary, that language, this perspective over years of working with different coaches, with therapists, with researching and actively working on self talk, language perception, talking about food and not even and fine, you don't have to become a nutritionist or fitness professional to gain that educational background but like it is all, it's to our best interest for all of us to just be self aware and to do the work, to just have that freedom. I want to say the word peace and confidence in your own choices and your own mind and your own body.
Speaker 2:Did you know I started working with you. What? Two months ago? Uh-huh, Okay, five years. I am a grown ass woman in my 30s and up until about two months ago I never tracked her. Gary Didn't know, didn't know what it was coming. It was always just a fun little surprise. Two months ago, whoa. No it's time to grow and learn.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And I'm doing it. I love your view.
Speaker 1:We set ourselves up a bit better. We have a bit more expectations, so it's not shocking You're like, oh, do throw chocolate at me at this time.
Speaker 2:No, I have tracked my period since I got off birth control and I found it so peaceful because you know I'll cry and I'll cry and I'll cry. And then my period will come the next day and I'm like, oh, I'm not crazy.
Speaker 1:Taylor just brought up. One is emotional. Mine is extreme fatigue. So I've managed to sort of figure out that I, like two days right before my cycle starts, I have this fatigue like I've never slept in my life, like my cells are tired, and so now I understand that, because it helps me manage my training volume, where before I used to think I was just weak. Yeah, we can do anything. It's just good to have that awareness.
Speaker 2:I have this rage.
Speaker 2:I hear that it's everyone in their car is stupid, every, and it's for a solid like two days before I get my period. Everyone is dumb. No one in the world is right. I am the only person who knows what's up and what's down, and everyone else is dumb and needs to stay out of my way For two days, for solid two days. The only person I can stand for those two days is my dog. It's not a person. Now, now that I'm in this learning phase in my life, now I know when those two days are coming, who got Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:Yay, I love that for you. I love that for you. I'm so glad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard that I could do it, ok. So I have two thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Hold on, yeah. But I thought that an old world could be neverен. The Humans doesn't. They can miss their firsta chance to tell it. Yeah. And then I started to understand my owner. She's an independent woman, she's a�동. A important community would like to share with the listeners, who may include young female combat athletes.
Speaker 2:Listen to your body. Sometimes even coaches will tell you to do things that just doesn't sit right in your body. And if you're not in touch with your body or your intuition, or you're not tracking your period and doing these things like, you might think that it's your fault and that you're not disciplined or you're not this. But like food is like life. You know it's so much more than fuel and if you're a young athlete and a female athlete, I cannot recommend enough that you work with a female coach. I've even had, you know, male nutrition coaches. Tell me you're not that lean, you can eat a lot less. Nothing bad is going to happen, even like certified nutrition professionals. You know telling my athlete self that my performance isn't going to decrease if I eat less. But I know it will. I've seen it happen. I've seen the amount I cry in the gym go up as I eat less food because I'm using all my discipline to eat less food. I can't then use my discipline in other places. So listen to your body.
Speaker 2:Coaches come second as like a second opinion. They're the second opinion. Your opinion is first If somebody tells you to eat less food and it's not enough food, please like, seek another opinion. I've had clients come to me telling me that coaches have told them to eat 1400 calories. It's absolutely ridiculous the stories I've heard coaches, personal trainers, nutrition people tell people and it's upsetting and I just I can't stress it enough. If you're hungry, you can trust your body. You can make healthier choices, you can eat healthier foods. If you're hungry, listen to your body. You know, I'm not saying go eat a Coke and eat popcorn and eat junk food every day, all day, just because that's what your body wants, like no. But if you're hungry, make healthier choices and listen to your body. Don't deny your body just because you're trying to be disciplined, you're trying to be on a diet, you're trying to follow calories. Somebody else gave you that would be a long-winded advice, but yeah.
Speaker 1:It was very passionate and needs to be said Before we get to you, kelsey, I just want to add to something Taylor said. We talked a few minutes ago about that self-awareness, and I want to point out that not everyone has that. We can have the education, but you may not know yourself, you may not know your own insecurities, you may not know your projections. You may very well have extremely educated practitioners that are projecting some beliefs like onto you, because people are people, and so that's another avenue of why I really want to reinforce that empowerment. Because you're not on a hierarchy, the coach isn't on a pedestal, you're not below them. There are people that just have different skill sets, and you should be coming to the table with your own conversation piece so you can talk things through.
Speaker 2:Okay. Taylor's advice was listen to your body. True story. Mine says listen to your gut. That was the advice I wrote down Listen to your gut and follow it. Like I am a firm believer. I look back in my career and there's certain points where I felt something was wrong. I felt something was wrong, but I was scared to speak up. I was scared to piss someone off, I was intimidated. I was whatever it was and by not listening to my gut, it led me to wrong places. Trust your gut. The other piece of advice I had was just to surround yourself with people who lift you up, people who make you better, people who not necessarily go easy on you, but people who just lift you up, people who are not trying to make you smaller or quieter, or just surround yourself with people who make you better, like you two queens, you two queens.
Speaker 2:I love you.
Speaker 1:I love both of you. This was such an important conversation. Thank you so much for your time, for your energy, for your words, for your vulnerability, for your heart. This is part one of many more conversations I hope to have. If you are listening to this, I have all of the information to follow these two queens in the show notes. But please just sit with it for a moment and just really listen to what we have to say as just people. First, let's just fucking all become badass, fucking queens, because queens support queens. Rich man, all right, thank you so much for listening. Catch you at the next episode.
