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A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
🥧 A podcast where we curiously explore nutrition, fitness, mindset, sports, wellness, & beyond. ☕️Host @parastoobadie
A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
From Ancient Wisdom to Modern Masculinity: A Philosophical Revival
When the noise of the world threatens to drown out our inner voice, it's the steadfast beat of mindful stillness that can guide us back to clarity. On this episode, we chat with IJ Makan, a martial artist with a purple belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu, a philosopher with a MA in Philosophy, and a kind man with a knack for practical wisdom. He is also the host of "Becoming Antifragile" podcast.
In this episode, masculinity is explored beyond societal norms, focusing on inner control and self-mastery. Drawing inspiration from ancient philosophers, we redefine the virtues of manhood, advocating for positive masculinity that prioritizes mental and emotional well-being.
As the conversation unfolds, we navigate the challenges of maintaining human connections, expressing emotions authentically, and integrating various aspects of our identities, and aligning our actions with our core beliefs.
We conclude with reflections on embracing life's chaos, pursuing anti-fragility, and cherishing each moment as if it were both a first and a last.
Tune in for a profound dialogue that celebrates the journey of personal growth amidst life's complexities.
To connect with IJ:
Listen to "Becoming Antifragile" on Spotify
Subscribe to substack:
https://ijmakan.substack.com/
Website: https://parastoobadie.com/podcast/
Email: asliceofhumblepiewithp2@gmail.com
Instagram: @asliceofhumblepiewithp2
Welcome back to A Slice of Humble Pie. I'm your host, p2. I'm a nutrition and fitness professional, a lover of pie and a curious human on planet Earth. Today's guest is IJ McComb. First of all, he's a kind, rad dude whom I've had the pleasure of working with as his fitness and nutrition coach last year, and I've also had the opportunity to train alongside him at our martial arts gym back home. Ij is a father, a product designer, a martial artist and a philosopher. He has a master's in philosophy and a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Also interesting personal fact he belongs to a tribe from Northern India called Nagas.
Speaker 1:Ij is the fantastic host of Becoming Antifragile, a podcast where he studies the works of some of the greatest humans and distills actionable wisdom from them into each episode. He has over two dozen episodes out, so be sure to check it out and he also writes on Substack with an account of the same name, becoming anti-fragile. I love listening to his podcast and, honestly, for someone that found philosophy intimidating, it is very, very captivating and I get sucked right in. So it's excellent and I really recommend you listen on Spotify. On my podcast today, we're discussing mindfulness for men, what mindfulness brings in all of our lives in general, as well as touching on masculinity in our modern era. Thank you so much for joining me, ij. I am so excited to learn from you. Let's get right into it. All right. So the books and the content that you're covering are not like reads at all Like. So I was curious before we get right into the juice of things Do you prefer physically reading or do you listen to audibles? And also, how did you even get into reading so much philosophy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, with all the books that I do, I read every one of them, and there are books that I have audio versions of. So what I'll do is, if I've read the book before, I'll do the audio version first and then read the physical book. And for me, I read all the books at least twice. Right, and because the whole point of the podcast is to make sure that I'm distilling the best sections or the best advice or wisdom, and so for me to understand and comprehend fully, I have to at least read it twice, and sometimes, so depending on like how dense the book is, I'll read it like three times, four times, I think, four times the most that I've done and then, like with the audio version having an audio version is always helpful, I find, because with the audio version you can get it If I haven't read the book. It'll give me like a brief overview of the book and then when I dive in, then I can dive in, you know, and go through it, and makes it much easier to dive through those books.
Speaker 2:As you mentioned in the introduction, then my undergrad was in philosophy and then my grad was in philosophy, and so the way I got into it was essentially professors talking about bringing up these like paradoxes. Right, okay, is there, you know, I think, one of the, the ones that I remember very clearly. It's like okay, if there's a ship, I think it's a ship of thesis. You know, if you take out all the pieces of the ship, replace it with new pieces, you know, is it the same ship? That was, uh, is it? Is it any is? Is it the same ship or is it a totally different ship? Because all the things have been changed and things like these very paradoxical questions essentially got me super into philosophy.
Speaker 2:And then I went down a rabbit hole, but initially I wasn't even planning on doing philosophy. I was going to do fine arts and design. But initially I wasn't even planning on doing philosophy. I was going to do fine arts and design, but it was like for me, I thought, with the fine arts and with design, I felt like I needed a much deeper base in something that will ground me, and so then I went to philosophy and then, obviously, I stayed in philosophy for quite a few years before I decided to come out of it.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating. So when you came out of it, when you pursued it further, were you thinking you're going to be teaching in academia? Yeah that was the plan, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I did grad school, the plan was to go on to do a PhD and then to and then to teach. But the thing is, when I was there, there was a prof one of my profs, and he's like you know, ij. Have you actually thought about how insane the market is? Because in the philosophy this is philosophy specifically, and I think this is the case with most arts is, at least when philosophy within North America, there's around 300 to 400, the numbers probably gone up who graduated with a PhD, and of those 300, in a year there's 10 positions that are open, and of those 10 positions, one, if you're lucky, is a full-time position. The rest are contract or adjunct positions, and so you have like 300 people, 400 people competing for 10 jobs. Of those 10 is one. So then in a year you get like 290 people who don't get a job offer. But you add that with the previous year of like 290, and then you add previous year. And so I thought about this. I was like this is kind of crazy, right, because I have friends who went and did. This is kind of crazy, right, because I have friends who went and did I shouldn't say friends, they're more like acquaintances who went and did their PhD in philosophy and some very renowned, well-renowned schools in Europe and in the States and they don't have work, which is crazy. Right, they were very good scholars, very good schools, scholarships, everything. But then when they applied for the market, it's like, well, you're competing against thousands of applicants, literally thousands. And so that was my moment. Where I go. Okay, I don't think it makes sense for me to stay here. And there was.
Speaker 2:The second part of all of this is within academia. There's a sense in which and I'm sure you know this it's like people who are scholars tend to be like very high up in their tower right. They sort of like preach down on people and there's a sense of like intellectualism that comes through with it. And that was what I didn't like.
Speaker 2:I just felt like that's why, initially, the first podcast that we were talking about before we started recording because in our dialogue was to try to bring academia out of its shell and into the marketplace, because I find that if your ideas are in the marketplace, you can make yourself sound very good and great when you're debating with each other, but then if you're not walking the way, if you don't know how to ground what you're speaking about. I found that there was that disconnect, and that's one of my favorite quotes from Lao Tzu when he says in the Tao Te Ching, he says the path is made by walking in it, meaning you have to practice what you preach right. Without it, it's simply just an ephemeral, ethereal place that you're talking about, but you don't really know what you're talking about. That's how I felt with academia.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that part. That's really fascinating and it gives so much more depth and meaning to your podcast, and I was also going to say, like you're, you have a good voice for it. I didn't know you were actually going to be into academia, but, like, it's very captivating and you can hear your passion when you're talking about everything, cause, yeah, so I love it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Then in in this current podcast, you you use the words to become anti-fragile. You must strengthen your mind and live with conviction. Anti-fragile, you must strengthen your mind and live with conviction. Very interesting. So I have a couple follow-up questions to this statement. In your words, what does mental strength look like? Can you expand on what living with conviction means and also what that would look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's a good question, the the idea of mental strength. For me it's. It's forged in the midst of suffering, it's forged when you're going through something very tough, very, very difficult. It's only then can you really figure out how much strength you have. And and not an elimination process, it's a time for each individual to go oh yeah, I actually have the strength within myself to overcome this. And it's only in the chaos and in the suffering that you can truly realize and understand what it is that you're capable of and what it is that can break you and won't break you, and understand what it is that you're capable of and what it is that can break you and won't break you. And so it's the ability to thrive in the chaos.
Speaker 2:Right, and at least I find that it's very hard to teach mental strength. Right, like you do with sports, because you can teach people to be like okay, like if you go, if you join the army, for example. Right, friends of mine who are in the army, you know they're like okay, in the hell week, they'll do all sorts of crazy things to weed out people. That's a weeding out process. That's not necessarily a teaching process, because they don't really teach it. Instead, it allows the individuals who are doing, say, the hell week, to find strength within themselves, to not give up, right? And so, because of that, I just don't think you can teach it. I know, obviously, there are people who teach mental strength, coaching, all that stuff, and so for me, it's like the only way you can learn is for you to go through that thing yourself, right? There's just literally no other way, and that's something that I learned in my own life, right, when I went through tragedies in my life. That was when I realized, okay, nobody's going to come and try to pick me up, and you know, there are friends who will comfort me, there are families who will comfort me, you know, but nobody's going to allow, nobody's going to give me the magic pill to go and become stronger. It has to be forged through the pain and through the suffering, and so that's what mental strength to me looks like, right. So it's like thriving in the chaos.
Speaker 2:So, living with conviction, I find, is your ability to take risk. It's your ability to take the risks for what you believe in. So if, for example, it could be in business, it could be in friendships, it could be in multiple other things. So if you have a friend that you know is harmful to you, if you have a friend that you know, when you hang out with them they take you on a binging tour and then at the end of the weekend you feel like garbage and you know it's like, okay, I did say to myself last month that I'm not going to do this again, but then I did it again.
Speaker 2:But then you sort of keep returning to your friend, right, because you're like, okay, this is my friend, he sort of he, she's comforting to me, you know, they know me, blah, blah, blah. But you know for yourself that it's not good for you. And so to be able to take the, to have that conviction, say, okay, this is not good for me, either I me. Either I'm going to talk to my friend and say, okay, we're not going to do this anymore, or you distance yourself. That requires conviction, right. That requires you to go. This situation is not good for me. But I have to be willing to take the risk of the uncertainty, because this could be a great friend of yours, right, it could be a best friend, it could be anything. But to be able to take that risk, that to me is like living with conviction and then, which I think requires a sense of right, mental strength, mental fortitude, because you need that, you need to sort of, you need to practice this over time in your own life. So, like I think, one of the things, um, I was telling a friend of mine this was like a while ago. We're talking about courage, right, and I maybe mentioned I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in my own podcast, but it's like when, when you see being, when you see say sort of like I don't know if it's domestic abuse, but let's say this you see somebody abuse, like physically abusing another person on the street, most people will say when you tell them the story, they're like okay, you see a man slapping a woman on the street and then shouting blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:When you tell that to somebody, they'll say oh yeah, I would have stepped in and stopped them, I would have gone in and said, hey, break this up. But in reality that is not the case. In reality that never happens. It's not that it never happens, but it's very far and few between that people actually step in and try it. And that has culturally to do with the way the society is and mind your own business, but it also requires a sense of conviction that, okay, I believe that you shouldn't be hitting a woman, and because I have that conviction, I have to be willing to take that risk, to step into the situation to stop this.
Speaker 2:That's just an example, because it has happened before here in downtown Ottawa, and so it requires people to step up, versus like standing from across the street where you're at this ice cream store and watching this woman getting slapped and you're just eating your ice cream and you're just watching, like what are you doing? You know, you're literally just standing there Anyway. So, all that to say, your actions require convictions, and when you have convictions paired with your actions, that's when you can do great things. Great things. It's obviously a matter of how you define great, but I think greatness in this definition is doing the things that you want to do and not being pressured to do the things that you think you should do or pressured to do the things that somebody else is telling you should do. Right, that's the way I would see what it like to live with conviction is precisely that.
Speaker 1:That's a powerful image and I was right there with you as you're describing it and I fully believe it as well. I think the words I have used to sort of describe what you said was having integrity and living in alignment which is the same, same but different 100%.
Speaker 2:I think that's it. There's a quote by Confucius which I love but I can never recall to my mind like word for word. But he essentially goes something like at 15, I set my path on learning. At 30, I understood what the way was. At 40, I started living it.
Speaker 2:At 60, I started to become aligned with my beliefs and then at 70, what my heart and mind desired aligned with the way, meaning what I desired and what my heart desired there was no longer a misalignment, it was integrity. So if I said, let's just say I believe that X is wrong or I believe that X is right, according to Confucius, it is in full alignment with what is actually good, in full alignment with what is actually good, it's not an illusion that I'm projecting, because I spent from 15 to 70 working on integrity, as you said, like working on that reputation that you have with yourself right Each day, every day, and you get to a point and you learn and you get wiser. And then you get to that point You're like, okay, all the beliefs that I have, I truly believe in them. I'm not.
Speaker 1:I don't have it because p2 told me I should have this belief right, so that I think integrity is a very good word you just said, reputation with yourself yeah and that one was that was like a hard-hitting statement for a second, because that takes, it's beautiful, because it's, like you were saying earlier, like no one has a magic pill for anything, and the reputation with yourself to get there requires a lot of work. Some of it's very uncomfortable, and so we've used the words. You mentioned mental strength, you mentioned grounding, and so I guess in our modern world, we refer to some of this as mindfulness. So my question for you, then, is what role has mindfulness played in helping you create that reputation with yourself, or?
Speaker 1:just what does it look like?
Speaker 2:Meditation and prayer are important to me and it's something that I've practiced for a very long time, and the reason it's important one, you know, it was sort of instilled in me from a very young age. But what I've noticed is, as I've gotten older and I've sort of maintained this or sort of maintained the practice and dove deeper into the actual practice themselves, and not doing it Like when I was younger, I would, you know, pray, but I would just pray for the sake of praying. It's like, ah crap, this is the end of the day. I forgot to pray today, so I'm going to pray. Right, it's more so, like, if I'm praying, I'm intentionally getting into that state of mind, versus it being forced onto me because it's 11 pm and I should be sleeping, so I'm going to drop in this quick prayer or do this quick meditation. It's like, oh crap, I have a meeting at 8, so let me just drop in a quick meditation.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, that defeats the purpose of mindfulness, right? If you're being forced to be mindful. Yeah, it's good in the beginning, sure, if you're trying to get practice, but the whole point of mindfulness is that you are present in every single instance of your life. Right, there's no longer one day that you're mindful and present or, as you say, one moment and then the next one. That's not the case, right, and so for me, the one main, important thing of all of this that acted as a catalyst, right, the praying and the meditation, is it allowed me to, especially when I was going through a very difficult time. It allowed me to one face the suffering head on, to not hide from it, to not hide from the pain, to not subdue it and press it down and hide it in a corner, but to actually confront it and feel the pain, and feel the suffering such that it's going to leave a scar, but the scar exists. You simply just there's no way to avoid the scar, right, if you face your suffering. But if you don't face your suffering, there'll just be an open wound that stays with you for the rest of your life and they'll bleed out slowly and you'll get infected.
Speaker 2:And so to face it requires time with yourself, it requires solitude, it requires silence, and that is, I think, what, for me, in terms of mindfulness, that is what it is. It's a moment or time, or days or weeks in your life where you are purposely in communion with silence, where you're quiet, you're trying to you quieten down your soul, you quieten down your mind and allow all those thoughts running behind you. You know this gibbering monkey running back and forth. You know you allow that monkey to run and exhaust itself and be like, okay, let me just calm down and you just calm down. And in those moments, that's when you can truly think, you can truly allow your mind to expand and go into, reflect on things that you've been wanting to reflect on or you've been hiding from, and one of those, to me, is facing your death, facing immortality.
Speaker 2:I think that is what has been crucial to me with the mindfulness it's the ability to face it, to face death, and say, okay, you know, most of us live life as if we're never going to die, but the mindfulness allows you that, okay, you are likely only going to live 85 to 90 years, assuming that medicine doesn't get any better than that. I assume it will. Let's say it's 125, but it's 125 years, which is a very short amount of time, and it's only after you're 30 or 25 that you truly start to think for yourself. So you really only have about 75 years and of those 75 years, the last 20, maybe 30 years you are, it's difficult for you to move around, it's you're sort of dependent on others. So really you only have like 50 to 40 years to develop your mind.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that if you're old you sort of get decrepit and lost, but, like Confucius says, by the time you're 70, you should be where you're not afraid of death, where what you believe and what you feel and what you desire are aligned with what is the way. Like Tao, you're aligned with Tao. So, yeah, that's the way I would understand. There's a quote that I wrote out that I wanted to bring. It's related to this and it's by Confucius. I'm pretty sure it could be by Confucius or Lao Tzu, and I actually forget who it's by you read so many things.
Speaker 1:I don't blame you.
Speaker 2:But the quote goes know the universe as yourself and you can live absolutely anywhere in comfort. Love the world as yourself and you'll be able to care for it properly. And you know whether it's Lao Tzu Confucius? Their point was to know yourself. You have, I'm sorry to, to know the universe, you have to know yourself, which requires that stillness, right, that silence, that practice. So that's a long way around of saying mindfulness, I think is crucial to me, but it should be crucial to anybody.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that you elaborated on it because it is become somewhat of a buzzword that I don't think people put in as much thought and passion into to really recognize what that word? Means First, before I answer what that means. What you were just saying brought up some things for me, so I'm thinking of childhood P2.
Speaker 1:And as soon as you said. You were told to start um meditating and grounded when you were young, as was I, but since the thing right before we were talking about doing things in alignment, it was very different. I grew up up until I was nine years old in iran and mine wasn't necessarily like it was.
Speaker 1:I had a resistance to meditation and prayer because it wasn't anything that I had really chosen, and so where it was, it was actually in class. It wasn't for my family. My family has always been very much supportive to help me figure things out on my own. But I remember grade one or two, me in class where I was supposed to memorize the Quran, and I remember asking my teacher being like what am I reading? I don't understand, because I speak Farsi, not Arabic. I didn't understand what I was supposed to memorize. And they were like we'll just do it. And I'm like why? Like I don't understand what I'm memorizing, and so I immediately repelled it. I was just like, okay, I'm just going to do this for whatever.
Speaker 1:But there was that resistance because someone was forcing me to do something that didn't align with me that wasn't feeling authentic, that didn't answer my questions, and so, yeah, I kind of rejected that part for most of my adolescence.
Speaker 1:And it's only in adulthood that I've taken full direction, where I've come full circle and I'm recognizing like I have a meditation practice and I have such I want to say joy with like moments of peace, and I'm recognizing that you know, younger me used to escape and now I am with myself.
Speaker 1:And so the quote that you shared also resonated, because obviously I'm in Vietnam right now while you're in Canada. So I left to come here, recognizing that I have put a lot of time and energy into myself, that I trust that I'm going to be able to do it, and wherever the geography is. And so it's like that mindfulness practice which for me now my round, round way of answering the question has been intention, where I've recognized the mind less so if it's like myless scrolling, mindless eating, just doing things for the sake of doing them, or it's like what is my purpose here? And sometimes the purpose is doesn't have to be, and I've called myself out on that where I recognize that before it always used to kind of align with capitalism, it had to be like productivity and now I'm like it's just fun.
Speaker 1:actually, the purpose is no purpose. And so, like I, I realized that, like the other day I went to, uh, I went to a watercolor class because I'm like you're allowed to just enjoy yeah, yeah an activity.
Speaker 1:Because because, like you were saying, with life, like life is short, and mine is even further than that, because in my mind it won't. Maybe we don't make it to 70, maybe it's tomorrow is the last day, and so how I've kind of navigated this is I did, uh, you know, through all of our tragedies, tragedies and losses. I think I just saw it as a way that what will bring me peace if tomorrow is literally my last day, am I gonna wherever, if whatever you believe in, if there's an afterlife, if you're in heaven if it all ends, whatever am I?
Speaker 1:am I going to be like cool I? I gave it my best shot yeah or am I going to be filled with all of this like turmoil and regret? And as long as it's like the first part, then I'm good with my choices yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:That's Nietzsche's eternal recurrence, right? The idea that if a devil comes to you and says, hey, p2, you are going to be forced to repeat this life over and over again for eternity, what is your answer going to be? And Nietzsche's answer is if the answer is not a resounding yes, like oh, hell, yes, I'm going to do this life over and over again because I love this life, not necessarily because everything is happy, but everything that I'm doing, I'm doing because I want to do them. Then the devil came to you as a way to punish you. Actually, the punishment turns out that it's heaven I'm obviously putting this last part in, but it turns out to be a reward for you, right? Because you're able to repeat this life over and over again, without regret, without fear, and you live out of love, a place out of love. The last two sections about love. Nishi doesn't say that about love, but I'm adding that part in.
Speaker 1:I'm like hey.
Speaker 2:There is something that you mentioned about the watercolor and enjoying it for the sake of itself, for the sake of you know. It's that, wu Wei. You know the action on action, where you're able to do things, not because it's productive, you do things not because you have this desire to, um, you know, make more, make more dollars. You do it because it's literally enjoyable. It's you some, it's the same with like mindful, like mindfulness, meditation, prayer, all those things in all, uh, in any angle, that you look at from a sort of modern productive perspective. Obviously, I have a caveat here, but they'll say this is totally useless. Why would you spend one hour sitting in silence? Because you could be taking that one hour to learn how to become a better watercolor painter. You could take that one hour to be reading a book. You could be taking that one hour to schedule the rest of your day and systematize it and blah, blah, blah. But the funny thing is, the whole point of mindfulness, meditation or prayer is you're not doing it to do something else, like you're not doing it to make you better in other areas. Those are just, those are in one sense, accidental properties of that practice.
Speaker 2:Right, the practice in itself is the practice itself. It's not a means to an end of making more money, making do more. It's a means to itself, right? It is simply that. And then all the things that come, they happen. But you know, with Monday mindfulness, like, there's all these apps, as you know, that come on and it's always geared to it. Sometimes I'll get these ads right, and it's always geared to it. So if you do this, then you can do this better, which is true, but it defeats the purpose why you're doing it in the first place. Yeah, so I like that watercolor example. I think it's good.
Speaker 1:You should call it watercolor more if it's enjoyable yeah, and everything too, even stuff that started, like my, I have a, a passion, like I get really excited and I get really passionate about things, and something that was a hobby becomes so much more. It's like everything, from fitness to everything. But that's where even this forum, you know, like what I always wanted to do was just have fascinating conversations, and so now I'm like, well, I just can't like, why not like sometimes, like so, yeah, absolutely so. This brought up a couple of other things. I do want to switch gears when I'm going to transition. Okay, one thing that you said right now, it's kind of set up.
Speaker 1:The next question I want to speak about like the role of masculinity in society, because we were talking about capitalism for a second and then like one thing is like I just thought of was like the role of a provider. Obviously, I know, like when we're preparing for this podcast to send you a whole bunch of things, we don't need to fully talk about that, but what I do want to just sort of set up for our listeners is defining what masculinity sort of means at this moment in time for yourself and in our modern society, and then to sort of let's do that. First, let's define masculinity so when I'm, if I Google this, according to the dictionary, it's just defined as having qualities or attributes regarded as characteristics of men and boys, such as handsome, muscled and driven, and I just mentioned the word like provider. Right? So there's some certain characteristics that we assume to be masculine. So what is your perception of masculinity?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, you and I both know that there are tons of online coaches that are teaching men to be masculine. They pay ten thousand dollars a week for a weekend where somebody just shouts at you and essentially it's just a hazing process like you didn't get it in university, so then you're gonna get it when you're a 35 year old man, or a 40 year old man shouting at you like be be more manly, and then they push you around, dunk you in cold water, like all this stuff like I see. I see it on my feed sometimes. I think I have two thoughts around it, right. One is like, perhaps the people who are going, some of them, maybe it is good for them to do it. I don't want to discredit the changes that can take place, because any situation, any moment, however insignificant you and I think it might be, it could be a monumental shift in somebody's mindset, right. But I think there's this idea. You know the whole coaching space around the masculinity stuff. I think there's this idea. You know the the whole coaching space around the masculinity stuff.
Speaker 2:I think there's something missing I think would probably be the best word I'm looking for where it tends to overemphasize this idea of like dominating other people. Um, and there's a. There's like, there's a quote. There's a quote by Epictetus, the Stoic philosopher, and he says most men want to rule over others, but the wise man rules over himself. And it's an idea that if you want strength, as we previously talked about, it has to come from within. It's not about how much power you have over somebody else, it's not how much you can dominate somebody else, whether that's in a fight, whether that's in an argument, whether that's in business. And so there's a and it's funny because we're talking about Epictetus. He's like in 300. No, not 300, but 2,000 years ago. That's what I'm saying Like 2,000 years ago on the one side, and then you have, on the other side, you have Buddha, who says the one who were to conquer a million men in battle, the one who conquers himself is a greater victor.
Speaker 2:So you have these recurring themes that are happening right, and it's not just about masculinity, but this idea of ruling over yourself, being able to control yourself, being able to understand who you are, what your desires are, what your weaknesses are. All that to say for me, as I was thinking about it, what is masculinity To me? And this might be something that people don't expect. But to me, masculinity is somebody who loves it deeply, whether that's his family, his friends, his neighbor, and somebody who has master over himself right, where the higher man rules the lower man, one who understands Tao, one who understands the way and walks in it, somebody who cares for the sick, somebody who protects the weak, somebody who stands up for truth right, somebody who knows when something is enough. Like that to me is, if you're talking about a definition of masculine, that is it right. That is, to me, that sums it.
Speaker 2:It's not how strong, because you could have a man who, let's say, used to weigh, you know, 230 pounds. Very strong man trains all sorts of martial arts. You know a killer by definition. But then say that they get into a terrible accident. They become totally paralyzed and the only thing left that they can do is move their neck and up right and they lose all their muscles, they lose all their strength, they lose all their ability to do athletic things and to protect physically their family. But if the man continues in the way, if he's still able to love his family deeply, if he's able to use that tragedy to better himself, to be a light to those who are also suffering, a light to those who are also suffering. To still not prevent him from going and caring for people and loving those who are also in that same situation, and not becoming a to use a very overused word to not become a victim of the situation but become a victor of it. That you would still say.
Speaker 2:That is a masculine man, like there's no ifs or buts about it. There's no like, oh yeah, maybe because he doesn't have the strength, maybe, you know, he's not athletic, so maybe it's like he's half a man. It's like, no, no, he is what a man should be. And so then it goes beyond the physical aspect, right, it goes beyond. How big am I? How strong am I? How handsome am I? How much hair do I have? I have no hair. And then it goes beyond that. It goes beyond the physical and gets into something that's much more human, it's much more holistic and understanding. Right, we don't want to be like the Spartans where, when the baby's born, they'll be like, okay, this baby, you know, is actually like a pound less than our average strong baby, so we just toss them off the cliff and then it gets eaten by wolves or like thrown into the ocean. Right, that's like an over, that's like a very particular understanding of what it means to be strong, what it means to be, you know, masculine. I think Obviously I'm giving a very far-reached extreme example here, but there is that sense of you know, with a lot of the online masculine stuff.
Speaker 2:It's like, okay, you have to be X, y, z, otherwise you're not. This it's like, well, if you look at any of the wisest men in history, whether that's Buddha, you look at Buddha, he literally gives up his whole kingdom and says you know what? I'm going to become poor and spend the first six years of his life, I believe, after he leaves his kingdom his actual kingdom right, we're not talking about that. People think we're on business. This is like an actual kingdom where he has slaves, where he has everything right and goes and lives in poverty and goes, you know what, and he doesn't go back. He does this, gets enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, and we have somebody like Lao Tzu. You know he wants to make change, he wants to help bring change, but nobody's really listening to him. But people know he's wise, so he's like I don't know what to do with this.
Speaker 2:Obviously, this is a legendary story about Lao Tzu. But then he goes. You know what I'll leave. So he leaves, he's about to leave the kingdom and the guard at the gate says hey, you're Lao Tzu, you're the wise man. Can you actually teach me your precepts, your maxims, and that's why we get the Tao Te Ching right? And you would think that these are all different cases I'm talking about. But, like Jesus another good example right Doesn't come and defeat the Romans, gets crucified, but you know his message of love, his message of caring for others, protecting. You would think all these wise men in history would be, by definition of what a lot of people consider wise. It's like to be violent, to be aggressive, to be able to dominate somebody in a ring, to be able to dominate somebody on a street in an argument, in business. All these guys would be considered masculine. What's the opposite of masculine? Not feminine, but not masculine, right? Yeah, so that's that's how I would describe it I love that.
Speaker 1:You're right that I wasn't. I wasn't expecting you to say that and I appreciate that you went there, uh, and I love that you had these far-fetched examples because, like you're bringing your philosophy experience into it, I guess again. So, as a comms person, one thing that I I don't know what the word is, I'm trying to find it that I feel like we have, just as a society we don't do a good job with, is we've put, we've summarized some big themes into like one words and then, if we don't fully like, agree on that same definition, we kind of lose all of its meaning. So, as you were describing, what I'm hearing is what we will call positive masculinity, and so like if, if I were to, you know, talk to someone, and it's like you're a girl, what do you know? And then it's it's like I'm a feminist, but that must mean that I hate men. So my perception of what you're saying is positive masculinity. So when we talk about that, like, hey, it's you don't have to.
Speaker 1:It's like it does poke an ego, that sometimes it's like you're telling me not to be masculine, you're emasculating me and it's like what? No, like yeah. And so it's become this like on edge conversation where it's like where you were talking about that human and that wise conversations and I feel like we're all screaming at each other and recognizing. You know, I started this asking you about mental strength, but, like, mental health is really really important to me, like mental health is really really important to me when we talk about, like the statistics of men's mental health, in my view it's you know, the stats sort of back it up that the structure that we've created, this perception of what masculinity is, has just created more stigma, has isolated more guys where they don't reach out for help, and not necessarily in the silence, solitude that you were describing but more in like a possibly training.
Speaker 1:yeah, like I'm turning into, like you know, turning to drugs and they have high rates of suicide, where it's like mental health is just in a crisis, but it's like where that it's like they were thrown into it, versus the intention that you're mindfully sitting down and meditating, right, it's like two. It's two different things. So where I was going with that is I appreciate that you describe masculinity that way. So I'm just wondering, like, how we can bring it back to modern times, because some of the stories you mentioned were of, like, wise men from thousands of years ago, but now, in 2024, how do we navigate masculinity? And, from the perspective of a man that practices mindfulness, like how do we create a culture of positive masculinity, or masculinity the way you defined it, without emasculating?
Speaker 2:the person, the person, right, yeah, yeah, I mean I should caveat with you know what I said earlier with the not to disparage anybody who is, uh, training any sort of like combative sports. Right. To not say, like, my point is not that doing those things are not masculine, right? Because to me, if you're a man, I think it is important to train any sort of combative like sparring, martial arts, like wrestling, muay Thai, jiu-jitsu, boxing because it allows you to understand your body as a man. It allows you to understand what your limits are, what your strengths are as a man, it allows you to understand what your limits are, what your strengths are. There's a quote by I think it's by Plato, and he says and I'm paraphrasing it because I can't quite remember what it was, but it's something like it is a shame for a man to grow old without knowing the true limits of his body, and that and that I think is very true. And I think to abandon it's all going to tie back in, but I think it's important to not abandon your body, the training of your body, to train your mind, and vice versa. Right To not abandon the training of your mind so that you can train your body Because you want to be able to train both your mind and your body, because there's this sense right now and perhaps this has been in existence for a very long time, just in terms of like, uh, people in general.
Speaker 2:But right now it's very common to compartmentalize your whole life. Okay, like p2 or ij, in in the business setting acts one way you know. In your friendship setting, you act one way with your family, you act one way with your good friends, you act one way with your lovers, you act one way which you know. And it's all compartmentalized. And the idea is okay if we don't come, if all compartmentalized. And the idea is okay if we compartmentalize so that we can do the best of our ability in those things. And the idea is, those things don't mix. And who I am in my business, let's say I'm an absolutely horrendous, exploitive, abusive leader, leader, right. And then when I switch to my role as a friend or as a father, all of a sudden I'm very kind and generous and loving to my kids, to my wife, to my friends. The idea is, yeah, those two things don't make so there are going to be two separate personalities, two separate alter egos here.
Speaker 2:But the human beings don't function that way. Human beings are holistic by definition. It's not like what your hand does and your eyes do and your feet do. It's not like they're unconnected, right? You can't be like, let's say, drawing with one hand and then not paying attention to what you're drawing. If you're doing something with your hand, you're fully engaged in that. If you're walking, you have to be aware of where your feet are going to step right, even if you're walking with a friend, like everything is connected.
Speaker 2:And so this I think to your point about sort of the mental health issue there's. I think there's a few things, but one of them certainly has to do with compartmentalizing right when people are like okay, I want to be really good in this one thing, so I'll focus on my energy here, and then in the rest of my life I just won't do anything here. But unfortunately, because you as a human being don't function that way, it sort of intermingles and seeps into each other, and so the darkness that you face in your personal life will seep into the way you act in your business. If you're an absolutely garbage person, your business will seep into the rest of your life, and so I think the problem is that siloing that you're doing, right. You silo all these things so that you feel like you're not going to get impacted, but obviously you are going to get impacted. Now, the second part of that question was about emasculating. Is that right?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was more about like encouraging that quote, positive masculinity or masculinity, because no one's saying that's a bad thing. It's more about, like you know that holistic human, that's what I want? I just want us all to be like happier humans yeah and so that's kind of what the objective of feminism is is like to give like opportunity where there wasn't, and then to look at all of this less versus women, versus men, and all of that.
Speaker 1:It's more about that the dichotomy is just not helpful. So how? How do we move forward as humans? Because when we start to have that conversation, it's just, you know, triggers. It triggers some uncomfortable defense mechanisms where it's like you mean, I'm not a man, or like these men are too soft, or like the compartmentalizing or the silos or the, the like what you were discussing, like the, the imbalance where you have like this massive like workaholicism, but not, you know, paying attention to your relationships or the rest of it. So like of course it's going to people are going to crash and burn and sometimes, if you haven't developed those relationships with your peers or friends, you don't even talk about it with them. So my question is how do we bring mindfulness and meditation like the things we were talking about, Right?
Speaker 1:Maybe, it's an ideal world. Yeah, how do we bring it to the modern man? And how do we as I can only speak for myself as a woman bring it in a way that I'm not emasculating them, because it's like I feel like every time I try to have that type of conversation, it's like you're saying masculinity is bad. I'm like, no, we're saying the same thing, we're all saying the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but sometimes people are not as you mentioned before, like sometimes there are people on two extremes right there 100%. Because they're the loudest, they tend to get the most amount of air time.
Speaker 1:I can't speak on behalf of everyone. That's being super polarizing, so I just can only speak on behalf of myself, where my objective is like, hey, I would like like, while we're on this planet for however long, like we were talking about, like to be in my integrity means. I would just like to leave it better for the humans around me as much as possible before so like before I think, for I think there is a difference.
Speaker 2:I think that you know, there's obviously a line of thinking that believes that there is no real difference between men and women, which obviously I disagree with, and part of that seeps, I would say, into, or comes from this idea where men and women should be treated totally equal on how they express themselves. So women I'm generalizing here, of course, but women are much better at talking about their emotions and talking about how they're feeling, talking about like. There's just sometimes, when I'm listening and like like my wife, for example, when she's expressing her thoughts, I'm like dang man, she's so articulate, I wish I could. I wish I could articulate this, you know. But she's very articulate and I'm like and I'll be like, I'll be like, how are you feeling? I was like okay, I'm trying really hard, but my words are just just true and that. No, no, that's partially like me working on trying to be more articulate.
Speaker 2:But I think there's this idea of like okay with like mental, with the mental health stuff, right, I think a good example here is you know, in Canada they have this bell, let's talk stuff, okay, and that's been going on for like the past 10 years, maybe close to 15 years, I would say 10 years, and it's not like the mental health crisis has gotten any better from yeah, since then. Right and cause. This idea is okay, let's talk more. Okay, people are talking more, but I think for men and I'm sure for certain women and this is probably not the case for some men, for certain women and this is probably not the case for some men but oversharing how they're feeling on social media, it doesn't make sense that you would share your struggles to the internet, amplify it to a bunch of random strangers, I don't know you when. Instead, you should be doing it if you are struggling with confiding in a friend. And I think there's a difference between oversharing publicly and oversharing without care and without wisdom, and sharing with wisdom, where you're like okay, I'm going to share with my friend. Let's say, you know your girlfriend, you're going to share something with your girlfriend and because you, one, trust her. Two, you trust that she will give you good advice and she's wise. And three, maybe she's gone through the same thing. And so there's that difference versus like me, let's say, for my example, like me going and talking about it on twitter or facebook and then to start ranting.
Speaker 2:You know, of course, there are people like that who will rant about their like personal lives on social media, and so I think that all that to say it is common when it comes to this idea of therapy and I have done therapy before and this is why, looking back on it, I go okay, this is probably not the. It was fine, I actually had a good experience with it. But looking back and having spoken to some friends who are doing therapy or have done therapy and that includes like couple therapy, right With their loved one, with their significant other you realize that it always is one way like the therapy works great for the woman because she's able to express her thoughts very well to the therapist, like this is what's happening, blah, blah, blah. But for the guy at least this is obviously all anecdotal here they have a terrible time because they don't know how to express themselves and if they say something not accurate or not well enough, then the significant other gets mad. The therapist also gets mad at them for saying this is not what you should do and it's like it's not really working just the way, because it works for, like, one side of the relationship. It just doesn't work so well for the other side and so to tie it all back. I think, for men and women, I think this, like you mentioned before, practicing solitude, that sounds so easy to say, right, it's like okay, practicing solitude, that sounds so easy to say, right, it's like okay, practice solitude.
Speaker 2:But actually taking time, whether it's early in the morning, if you're a morning person, or late at night, like taking some time to be by yourself and not do anything, and that could be as simple as sitting here and staring at an empty wall for like 10 minutes, because that's a good way for certain people to start this idea of silence. Where your mind is not distracted, your mind cannot wander. You're training your eyes to be focused on this one thing what you'll notice at least, is that, over time, all the traumas and hurt and suffering that you've repressed which I think lots of men do they repress it and they're like I don't want to talk about it, I'm going to hide it away, and those, obviously, they will blow up in one way or the other. It's just bound to happen. And that's for men and women, right?
Speaker 2:But if you're able to cultivate silence in your life, if you're able to be at peace with your mind, what you'll notice is when they come up and they will come up in your practices you are in a state of mind where you can address them properly. Where you are not a state of mind where you can address them properly, right, where you are not being vied, your attention is not being vied by something else, it's not being tugged. You are there with yourself and you can watch these thoughts come in from like a third person perspective and not judge the anger that you might feel from you know a hurt relationship or something like to not give up on yourself because of some trauma that happened. You are able to watch it and witness it and be fully in that present moment. And when you're in that present moment, there's something about your ability to notice it, experience it, that allows you to start healing.
Speaker 2:And the funny thing I say all this because it's funny when I'm saying this about how is it applied to the modern life, to the modern man. It's not like any of the things that I'm saying is new or insightful to me. These are all things that some of the greatest minds in human history have said, and the reason they've said it is because they're touching on a universal point about what it means to live life, and that's why we continue to read them, that's why they continue to be relevant, and so I guess one of the other things would be read some of these guys Read some of the read-louts who read Confucius.
Speaker 1:You said a lot of interesting things. I know we're wrapping up time, but I did want to kind of connect a couple of things you said as you first started. For a moment I had a moment I was like hmm, hmm, I'm like okay, let him continue, because what I wanted to point out is that there's different types of therapy. Right, like we were talking about every tool, like there's some tools like maybe talk therapy is inappropriate for somebody and that's okay. Maybe's too much. The one concern I have with just being in solitude, I think from your experience, is because you have such. That's why I'm glad you just said the readings.
Speaker 1:Like you, you've done the work, you've read so many things you, so you can't be in solitude and you're seeing it as a learning, whereas what I'm concerned about is like where the solitude has become a comfort zone and people don't know how to connect with other human beings, and that's where I find like, if it's that isolation, so if we use the word differently, because one of the biggest risk factors to mortality right now is actually isolation 100%, especially in the Western world. So it's like there's a difference. Loneliness is a crisis to mortality right now is actually isolation 100% yes.
Speaker 1:Especially in the Western world.
Speaker 2:So it's like there's a difference between Loneliness is a crisis.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there's a difference between isolation and loneliness and intentional solitude, where you're meditating and being with your thoughts so that you could come out and do other things that require you as a holistic human, where you have relations with other human beings and I feel like sometimes, like yeah, everyone, especially in the world of social, like we're at the same age, like I agree with what you were saying. It's like there's two parts to it. This is a tool that allows us to connect with other people. Like you're in Canada, I'm in Vietnam, we're having this conversation.
Speaker 1:But again, it's just one tool. So if you're using it to just like scream at people, that's not like how are you? And even if it is sharing, like a bell, let's talk. Great. If it allows you to be vulnerable and you got it out, great. But then what? Because if you haven't interested, interjected that thought pattern with a professional, or read some books, or like spoken to some people, leaned on it, you end up in an isolated loneliness circle of doom it's just a cyclical pattern that you get into right exactly the one thing I wanted to kind of wrap up.
Speaker 1:We started with talking about mental toughness, but then we also were talking about living in conviction and, like the whole, becoming anti-fragile. So from I'll just share my little summary perspective and then I just want to open the floor for you to wrap this up. So it's like mental toughness doesn't necessarily mean like to like power through all the time. It has its moments right, you have to sometimes but then it's also with that mindfulness and that intention that has to align with your integrity and your conviction. So sometimes it is pulling back and sitting down and being with your thoughts, and sometimes it is powering through because you've strengthened your mind.
Speaker 1:And it's not all internal, it's like a combination of you meditating but also having external sources, other wise words, other human beings because we are social creatures and sometimes therapy and other resources. So to me, like becoming anti fragile means that you're I can't be rigid, because to be fragile means being rigid, but to be anti-fragile means you're malleable, and that's sort of how I define or I summarize what we talked about. So that was my perception. So how do you perceive this? Take it away, ij.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're actually quite close, if not very close. Yeah, I think you're actually quite close, if not very close. To be anti-fragile is to be able to thrive in the chaos that is life, to not be able to, not be defeated by the circumstances that are in your way, that happen to you, and even though you don't choose the circumstances, you don't choose the pain, you don't choose the things that happen to you, to be able to take what happens to you and make it your own and make it part of your story. And I'm sometimes weary to use the word better, right, as if you're valuable only if you get better. But I think in this sense, if I'm being very specific here, it's like becoming fragile means the chaos actually allows you to become better, it doesn't defeat you and because the fact of the matter is you're going to die, which we've talked about You're going to suffer. There's no ifs or buts about it. It doesn't matter how protected you are, the Buddha being the classic example where his father tried to shelter him because there was a prophecy that he was going to become the Buddha, and the father's like no, no, I want him to take over my kingdom, so we're going to hide all suffering, all pain, all old age from him. He's never going to see it. But then fate has it that he walks out of his kingdom and finds a very sick man and realizes oh man, I have been sheltered my whole life. And then, obviously, siddhartha Gautama becomes the Buddha. And so, just like that, suffering is going to happen, and it's for us to learn to suffer virtuously. No amount of genetic engineering and longevity drugs which is a big thing, obviously, that's a sector that I was in for a few years, not longevity, but in the health tech sector it's going to give you everlasting life, and so you're going to have to learn to die before you die. And it's only through that death, right Through you dying before you die, that you're going to be born again, and in that rebirth you understand that your life is just one. You have this one life to live. As you said, to live life, to live this life without hesitation, to live this life with conviction, to live this life with the possibility that the devil's going to come in the middle of the night whispering in your ear hey, you're going to have to repeat this life again. You'll be like, okay, let's do it. Great, that sounds fantastic to me, and so I think that's the way I would say it.
Speaker 2:And just one last thing about the point on isolation and solitude I think it is a very good point you make. I think it's important that, because the difference between isolation and solitude is in one case, in the case of solitude, you go into isolation to return back to the community, whereas with isolation, you go into isolation not to come out of it. You go in it to escape from the community, to escape from other people, and so you have to be very careful here, really, because I think the way this is for better or for worse right, lots of tech companies will profit off your isolation. Right, it's in their best interest that you are more isolated, because then they can give. Lots of tech companies will profit off your isolation. It's in their best interest that you are more isolated, because then they can give you their products, their apps to use.
Speaker 2:Where you give a subscription, talk to somebody that's not your friend, to talk to an AI, to talk to a therapist, because it benefits them. The value incentive is very incorrect here. They're not doing it so that you talk so that you no longer need the app, they do it so that you become dependent on it and hooked, think it's always good to keep. Keep in mind that there you have to understand the value incentive right and with certain things like this, as things get more advanced, the last part.
Speaker 1:I didn't even think about there, but I was just thinking about just humans being humans, since we use that. But I appreciate it. Uh, one last tiny question I had that I jumped over, but I was just wondering. We did have a brief relationship where I was your fitness and nutrition coach and I challenged you on mindful eating. You did have a conversation earlier, earlier. You made a point about connecting your mind and body. So I'm just curious if that conversation, if you can comment on it, if, like, brought up anything for you because, like you're so like about the mindfulness, like specifically about when you brought up the mindfulness eating yeah, the mind the mind I'm just curious.
Speaker 1:I'm just curious what that brought up, because, like you're so intentional and you're so mindful and you've been practicing this for years and so that's just like an interesting little thing, that just like I was like, oh, this is new.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mindful eating is funny because it never crossed my mind. So there's that author. I think I mentioned to you Thick Neck Non, I've apologized if anybody who's a thick neck, however you say his name is and I've known about his work before. Like there was that little book like his tea book, but it never clicked. It was like in and out, one ear right, and I would eat as you very well know, because I told you I would eat as if there was like a bear chasing me and my wife would always come and say man, you're eating so fast. I was like what are you talking about? This is me. Slow eating, this is me.
Speaker 2:But I think part of that has to do with when I was very young, when we were in boarding school, you only had like a 40, I think it was like 30 minute to 40 minutes timeframe of eating. So if you don't eat food in that timeframe like, let's say, you're eating slow but you're still hungry, but you're just eating slow you're not going to get an opportunity after the 30-minute mark to get more food. That's it. And so we would do. And obviously we're talking about teenage boys. Right, as you're growing, you're eating, so you just gobble your food as fast so you can go get seconds, and then you eat as fast as possible so you can go get thirds. And so I think it was, and that to me was very normal, like that's what everybody around me did, all my friends did, all my peers adults, not adults, but like older people did. And so when you had brought it up, like two years ago or so, I was like, ah, that's so true, I don't actually sit down and enjoy my food in the way that most people enjoy their foods, like people always talk about. You know the, the European self eating is so chill, so relaxed. They eat food over a course of like three hours, like three hours. What the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2:But then I realized something beautiful about it all is, when you eat slowly, I mean it's still. I find that when I'm by myself and I'm eating because there's no one to keep me paced, I'll just sprint through my food. But like if my wife, I mean, like you know, with my family, I'm much slower, and that's all. Thanks to you when you brought up the, and I was able to make that connection that you know, to be mindful eating, to be mindful when you're eating, is as important as to be mindful when I'm meditating or when I'm praying, because even though I'm very grateful for my food as I'm eating it, there's a sense in which the gratefulness is disintegrated when I'm just chowing it through and not enjoying the flavor, not enjoying the taste, the texture, not enjoying it all all. And it's just funny because in in food, eating food, I don't do it, but like if I'm sipping wine, I'll take it very slowly, like as if I'm like a frenchman, which I'm not, so it's just with food.
Speaker 1:So it's definitely been very helpful for me over the over the past two years that seems like a wonderful just connection piece, to just be like, hey, we're all human, we're still you use the word better we're all improving, we're noticing things. So one thing overlaps to the other. So thank you for an hour of your time. I appreciate everything you shared, honestly so grateful, and for also I was listening to your podcast in preparation and for you to even introduce some of these things. I always found philosophy really intimidating and so I appreciate, because I want to learn more and I want to understand some of these whys, all of these wonderful lessons. So it's tangible and I really appreciate how you applied it to our modern times. And, yeah, thank you so much for your time and energy.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, pint p2. This has been fantastic and you have been very helpful in the mindfulness stuff as well, and I'm glad you continued this pod and having these conversations. I think there's it's valuable for people and even just for you and I to talk. You know, it's just, it's like okay, you're able to think through things much clearer when you talk to somebody and when you're not in isolation. So thank you for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for you, thanks for watching.
