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A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
🥧 A podcast where we curiously explore nutrition, fitness, mindset, sports, wellness, & beyond. ☕️Host @parastoobadie
A Slice of Humble Pie with P2
Unveiling the Mind-Gut Connection: Integrating Naturopathic and Conventional Medicine for Holistic Wellness
Trigger warning: this episode includes mental health and self harm.
Note: this episode was recorded in 2023
In this episode, we focus on the mind and gut connection with our guest Dr. Karim Alami, ND. Dr. Alami shares insights on the transformative power of naturopathic and conventional medicine in providing the best care possible.
As we delve into the vital role of nutrients in mental health, you'll learn about the intrinsic link between gut health and brain function. Dr. Alami will explain the significance of macronutrients and amino acids, particularly tryptophan, in serotonin production. We will also explore various dietary approaches, emphasizing the importance of protein, and the impact of individual nutritional needs.
Our conversation will also cover the effects of stress on gut health and the complexities of burnout and chronic stress. Dr. Alami will provide valuable strategies for managing these conditions through personalized care and a supportive network. We will stress the importance of preventive care and the therapeutic order of treatment, advocating for a proactive approach to health. Don't miss this comprehensive discussion for a holistic approach to wellness.
To connect with Dr. Alami:
https://www.dralami.com/
Website: https://parastoobadie.com/podcast/
Email: asliceofhumblepiewithp2@gmail.com
Instagram: @asliceofhumblepiewithp2
Welcome back to A Slice of Humble Pie. I'm your host, p2. I'm a nutritive fitness professional, a lover of pie and a curious human on planet Earth. Our guest for today is Dr Kareem Alami. Dr Alami studied kinesiology and health sciences for his undergrad and then continued at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine. He runs his own practice for about nine years now and is currently in a clinic in Stittsville, canada.
Speaker 1:He is known as the gut health doctor. His specialty is the mind and gut connection and he supports mental health from an integrative perspective. Is the mind and gut connection and he supports mental health from an integrative perspective. He uses nutritional counseling, lifestyle counseling, supplementation, herbal medicine, acupuncture, so on and so forth, and tailors each treatment to the specific needs of his patients. I have a lot of respect for Cream as a professional and as a human.
Speaker 1:In his limited spare time, he's a great friend, a husband, a part-time house renovator and a volunteer firefighter. He is genuinely committed to helping people with an approachable and humble nature and, honestly, we need more people like him in this world. I am pumped to chat with him and to share our knowledge about God and mind with you. Thank you so much for tuning in. Let's get right into it. Let's set the stage for everyone. We have both heard the term quack when it comes to naturopathic doctors or holistic care. Obviously, I don't subscribe to that language, but for the skeptics in the audience, could you please share your approach to your practice and how naturopathic medicine fits into integrative care All?
Speaker 2:right. So with that idea, it's actually it's. It's more common than what you think, but fortunately it's more common than what you think, but fortunately it's less common than before. I've been in practice for about seven years and in naturopathic medical school for five years. Prior to that, and since I found out about naturopathic medicine and started the program, it's become so much more widely accepted.
Speaker 2:So usually I will start my appointments with patients by explaining the difference between conventional medicine and naturopathic medicine, just to give them an idea of what we'll be doing, what to expect. The way I go about it is basically I say something along the lines lines of it's actually, you know, seeing a naturopathic doctor is very similar to seeing a conventional medical doctor. You have a health issue, you come and you sit and we talk, and my goal as a naturopathic doctor is to listen, to understand, to figure out the root cause and to formulate a treatment plan. The biggest differences between the naturopathic doctor and a conventional medical doctor and I'll use an example, like a headache, for example you come in with a headache. You come in with a headache to a conventional medical doctor. They're going to rule out the red flags, the big stuff you don't have brain tumors, brain bleeds, et cetera, et cetera. And once they rule out the big things, they're going to do that by either asking you questions or sending you for imaging or tests. Okay, you got frequent headaches here. Try these medications either Advil or Tanadol or Triptans or whatever they're going to try with you. Take these medications, go home, you'll be fine and just keep managing with the meds to keep the signs and symptoms low In naturopathic medicine.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be asking questions to try and rule out the red flags. Did you hit your head and you're suddenly having acute, severe head pain? Oh, yeah, okay, I need you to go to your GP and ask for imaging or go to the hospital or go to the emergency, right? So I'll ask questions to get a clinical picture to rule out red flags. Once the red flags are ruled out, I'm going to ask other questions to figure out what may be the root cause.
Speaker 2:Okay, Is this person not sleeping enough? Are they dehydrated? Are they really stressed and then holding just a lot of tension in their muscles? And these things may be simple to a lot of people, but they're often overlooked. Right, it's the difference between, okay, I'm drinking more water, I don't need to be on medications and remember, I'm just using headaches as an example. This is for so many other things Diabetes, gut pain, mental health. Even I've had people come in with severe anxiety and they're on so many medications. And when I take their diet, they're on like they're drinking three Red Bulls and six coffees a day with their Tim.
Speaker 2:Hortons breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know these are simple things, but if only we had changed those things, those simple things, before. You don't need to be on these many medications, and if you want to be on medications, that's fine. But you know, it all depends on what you know, what risks you want to take Anyway. So so I, you know naturopathic doctors very similar in that way that they take the case, they, the differences that we are trying to figure out, the root cause, and not all conventional medical doctors are just symptomatic relief. Here's medications go right. There are people too, as we are, and you'll have people in conventional medicine practicing differently and you'll have people in naturopathic medicine practicing differently. There are naturopathic doctors who are all about, you know, just take supplements and you'll be fine.
Speaker 1:It depends. That's a really good summary. I love that you said it depends and that you immediately just said that you know all doctors are people too, because there's this like perspective of this like God complex that if the doctor says it, it's true and it's like, hey, I'm a human being, also learning things and I work with my colleagues, and in this case you mentioned that you even refer to GPs if there is testing or other stuff. So is it fair to say that you work with people's GPs and other practitioners and you're sort of part of the team?
Speaker 2:Definitely it's an integrative approach. It's not either you see a naturopath or a conventional medical doctor. What I find is conventional medical doctors are really good at emergency acute stuff, right. You have lower right quadrant abdominal pain. That's come on really quickly like an appendicitis issue. You're not going to go to a naturopathic doctor. You know something that happens quickly and getting worse quickly. That's an emergency. Usually, you know you come to me with low right quadrant pain or you're having your heart attack symptoms or you broke a bone. I'm not going to be like here take these herbs, you'll be fine. No, I'm going to be sending you to an emergency department. You'll be fine. No, I'm going to be sending you to an emergency department If you've had chronic long-term things happening, like chronic loose stools, chronic diarrhea, and you've gone through the conventional side and you know they've run tests and nothing is really like they're saying, oh, all your blood work is fine, you don't have hypothyroid, but you're like I have all the signs and symptoms.
Speaker 2:My hair is falling, my I'm lethargic, I'm gaining weight too quickly. That's my thing, right. Chronic long-term things that are more difficult to figure out. And another difference between a conventional medical doctor and naturopathic doctors with naturopathic doctors, we are taking a holistic approach to treatment and to assessment, and what that means is we're not just if you're coming for headaches, I'm not only looking at your head. If you're coming for fatty liver, I'm not only looking at your liver, I'm looking at the whole person. I'm looking at your diet, your energy, your sleep, your mental health, your nutrient depletion, your like, everything right. I'm looking at you as a whole person, all the different organs.
Speaker 1:Thank you for clarifying the difference. And one thing I know we're going to come back to it at the end of our talk, but we're both aware that part of the other issue isn't even just the people and the doctors, it's just the medical system in the first place, Because sometimes I know some medical doctors that want to have more of a holistic perspective. They just don't have the time to ask some of these questions 100% Right. So that's the system failing everyone in the first place.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and I tell this to patients all the time, it's not I. I don't blame medical doctors, I blame the system. The system is set up in a way that it doesn't really give them a choice to sit with a patient for an hour and take the case. They have to, because there are too many people to take care of and they're burning out. They're overwhelmed, as are a lot of naturopathic doctors actually as well. I would say. All the health care professionals are are in a in a time of burnout nurses, nurses it's, it's a scare, it's actually very scary. What's happening in the nursing world right now? Um, our hospitals are constantly over underst. Yeah, yeah, that's a whole other story, that's a whole other story.
Speaker 1:We can easily talk about that and, like I just chuckled right now, not because it's funny but because it's so horrible that my reaction is to laugh about it Because, yeah, so we'll kind of we'll put a pin in that thought because we can absolutely talk about it for hours upon hours and days and years about the system.
Speaker 1:But let's kind of flip to talk about what your specialty is. So you're known as the gut doctor and I know that speaking of burnout. So we'll speak about that a little bit more. But when we talk about gut, there are certain, I would say in the wellness industry it's become a little bit of a buzzword where I know even colleagues within nutrition and fitness that say things like I'm a gut expert and I sort of roll my eyes at that because I can't say that like it's not in my scope, I have no testing in it, like that's why I work with people like yourself and people's doctors and whatnot. So again, just to give context to our listeners, when we hear the word or the words mind-gut connection, what is the mind and gut connection and how does the gut influence the mind?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's very good, very good questions. When we are talking about the mind-gut connection, there's actually a direct connection and then there's indirect connection. Remember, the body works as a whole and everything is connected. Your eye health is connected to your gut health, your skin health, your scalp, your hair, your toenail health is connected to your skin health indirectly, somehow, right? The way I usually like to look at the gut is it's like the roots to a tree, right? If you can imagine? Close your eyes and imagine a tree, a full-grown tree, and the roots. The roots go deep into the ground in all directions. And what's the function of the roots? To absorb nutrients from the soil and supply the whole tree so that the leaves are growing healthy, the branches are growing and everything is growing well.
Speaker 2:If you come and you all of a sudden disease those roots or you cut them off, what's going to happen to the them off? Right? What's going to happen to the rest of the tree? It's going to wither and die. You're going to see disease in the leaves, in the whole tree. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2:Our gut is literally absorbing nutrients and supplying our whole body. If there is disease in the gut, you're going to see it systemically in the whole body. It's not just the mind, right. The mind to me has had, but personally I've, I've gone through stuff that you know about and to me that I've I've kind of married those two together in my practice.
Speaker 2:Uh, for personal reasons, but, um, it does I. But I see people from all wakes of life in terms of health concerns. It's not just mind, but it is a strong connection when it comes to the mind and gut. So what I meant by saying there's a direct connection is there's literally like there's a nervous system connection between the mind and gut and you've heard of it vagus nerve right, which has an effect on the fight or flight and rest and digest, sympathetic and parasympathetic response and then, indirectly, is, if your gut is not functioning optimally, if it's not absorbing nutrients, overall, you're going to be deficient. What I'm seeing more and more of as time goes on in my practice is burnout, and when a person is burnt out, we often will see low mood, anxiety, like mental health issues as well, and we both experienced burnout, so we both know how that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my God, that's another 60 year topic conversation, but bringing it to. Thank you for giving a bit of context to the mind and gut, and I want to get even more specific now. So, okay, so obviously we're of the school of thought that food influences our health. Duh, we just talked about this, and so that that in itself is another can of worms of access, socioeconomics, food, all of those things. But for for now, let's just say that what we're talking about is high quality, nutrient dense foods, and naturally they're going to be the ones that are most jam-packed with good stuff for our body to work with. So I have two parts to this question. First of all and you already mentioned some deficiencies leading to certain possible mental health conditions so what nutrients does the mind need specifically, and what are some of the common deficiencies that you've been noticing that people are experiencing, that have poor mental health?
Speaker 2:So before I answer this question, I want to say a few things. The first thing is I mean I know this is a podcast. A lot of people are going to be listening to it because they're connecting to it somehow. So if anybody is experiencing poor mental health, it's really important that you seek professional support. Don't just get your information from a podcast I don't know people's you know to the listener. I don't know your health background, don't know your your health background. It could warrant pharmaceutical intervention. You know there's a time and place for everything, so don't just like okay, I'm gonna start eating more protein, drinking more water and I'll be fine. There are people who are who that's okay with, and then there are people who need pharmaceutical intervention. There's's a time list for everything Hear, hear, hear, hear.
Speaker 2:The other thing is, before we get into the nutrient aspect, it's important to recognize that the gut itself has a huge amount of nerve system cells. Right, it's called the interic nervous system. It's kind of like a second brain. You know when they say trust your gut. Literally your gut has an effect on mental health, on your brain. There's actually like a brain in your gut. Basically it's really cool To the point that. So you've probably heard of serotonin, the neurotransmitter serotonin. A huge amount of that produced in our body is actually produced in our gut and serotonin is is a neurotransmitter that most of the antidepressants work on, so, like an ssri, a certain selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
Speaker 2:So, going back to what nutrients are most important for the gut, what I have come across in my practice is the most important macronutrient. So there's micronutrients and macros. Micros, like small macros, are big. Macros are what we need a lot of every day. Micros are what we need a little bit of every day, like vitamin B12, zinc, selenium, magnesium, et cetera, et cetera, macros, carbs, proteins and fats. So the most important macro that I've come across that a lot of people are deficient on in right, protein, yeah, protein, amino acids. So protein amino acids are the building blocks of protein. When we eat protein, we are literally giving, or amino acids such as tryptophan, right. So tryptophan is one of the amino acids that we get from eating more protein. When we ingest tryptophan is one of the amino acids that we get from eating more protein. When we ingest tryptophan, you're literally giving the body the nutrient it needs to make more serotonin. So just by having more protein, we are giving the body the nutrients it needs. Oh, that's actually another difference between naturopathic medicine and conventional medicine.
Speaker 1:I know we kind of already talked about that. I know I love the term. Go ahead, have at it.
Speaker 2:Okay. So another way I like to explain the difference is that with conventional medicine, they are essentially trying to do things for your body. With naturopathic medicine, they are essentially trying to do things for your body. With naturopathic medicine, I'm trying to get your body to do things for itself. And what I mean by this? If you are chronically getting sick, right a conventional medical doctor, let's say, you get lots of bacterial infections they're going to give you antibiotics. The antibiotics literally go and kill the bacteria for you. Right? What a naturopathic doctor is going to do? They're going to supply your body or support your body in building up your immune system so that your body kills the bacteria. So I'm going to be looking at nutrients and vitamins and things that help your immune system strengthen, so that your immune system is supporting you versus instead of giving you an antifungal. I'm going to support. And then there are also natural means of antimicrobial herbs. They're obviously not as strong as pharmaceutical approaches, but because of that, they have less potential for side effects.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that little tangent Sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:No, sorry, that's all we want.
Speaker 2:I got excited. I'm so glad you got excited.
Speaker 1:And we can hear the excitement because that's part of the holistic camera we're talking about. Like nothing is linear, like the oh, I remember this, oh, this is connected to this, it's just such a norm. So, yeah, I do appreciate that. And so let's make it a little bit more specific than with the nutrients, understanding what you just said, I love that you said that disclaimer, because obviously nothing that we say in this forum or rewrite or write or blog about can be applicable to every person and I've mentioned this in a different episode where it's like the, the, the line between self responsibility, scope of practice and the collective responsibility. So take with this what you will, but we're just having a general discussion, like don't take anything we're saying as gospel Um, and please seek your professional um that you're working with.
Speaker 1:So the nutrients, the protein absolutely, and the one thing too, like from a nutritionist perspective, there's a lot of fear mongering around protein too, and it's just it's not just the bodybuilders you're trying to get jacked Like it's a necessary building block, especially for absolutely Right. So we're talking about it from the realm of tryptophan and mental health and mood and whatnot, but also like everything else. So my little tangent contribution that protein is important. Protein is important. Conclusion.
Speaker 2:Protein, protein. And a lot of people, when they hear the word protein, they think automatically, they think big muscly guys, they think weightlifting, they think protein powder, they think meat. Right, that's not it. Protein can come from plants and animals. Animal protein is better used by the body, it's more bioavailable, but then you have like bacon and then you have fish. Right, obviously, fish is healthier than bacon. You have different choices within the animal realm of protein.
Speaker 2:Any food you eat is going to have protein, carbs and fats Like a piece of rice have protein, carbs and fats. A piece of fish has protein, carbs and fats Like a piece of rice have protein, carbs and fats. A piece of fish has protein, carbs and fats. A lot of people don't know that meat has carbohydrates in the form of glycogen, right? So when you eat, for example, rice and you're thinking, hey, I'm just or quinoa or legumes, and you're thinking I'm just or quinoa or legumes, and you're thinking I'm going to get my protein from legumes, guess what you're getting? More of legumes have more carbs than protein. You're getting more carbs before you get to the protein.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing is protein. When it, when you ingest protein, it gets broken down into its basic building blocks, the amino acids right. Then your body absorbs the amino acids and then it builds whatever or it does whatever it needs to do. We need amino acids to build enzymes in our body that carry out various, like hundreds of different, biochemical reactions in every cell in your body. We need amino acids to build antibodies right Immune system support. We need amino acids to stabilize blood sugar. It helps to stabilize blood sugar.
Speaker 2:We need amino acids to break down for energy. We use tryptophan and tyrosine to build serotonin and dopamine, those happy hormones or happy neurotransmitters in our brain and gut. We use amino acids for everything. It's so important. I mean muscle building is also important for you to have the strength and the energy and the stamina and stay independent as you age. Right, I mean it doesn't mean that carbs and fats are not important, are not important. It's just one of those things that as soon as somebody tells me I'm vegetarian and I know they're coming in for mental health issues, I right away write something about protein in their treatment plan, because I know that's going to bit me and I would say nine times out of 10, they come back saying, yeah, I'm feeling more energy, I'm feeling better, mood is stabilized. It's crazy how simple that is and how overlooked it is.
Speaker 1:That was a beautiful segue to the question I was going to have. So there's always debates, right? What's the best diet? It's paleo, it's carnivore, it's vegan and everyone's arguing that that's most helpful for mental health. And I want to bring it back to the gut part, because you just mentioned legumes. You also mentioned that animal meats are more bioavailable and that most vegetarians and vegans aren't getting enough protein in the first place because they have chosen to remove animal or reduce animal-based protein. So my question is when we say legumes, the other school of thought is that we have lectins, we have like FODMAPs from different carbs impact people's digestion, which then, as what you've said before, will influence the mind. So how do you go navigating when your diet is, I guess, more plant based and you have a whole bunch of these types of things that are influencing your digestion? Like, how do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one thing I want to say is I will never force somebody to eat something they don't feel comfortable with, especially if they're you know.
Speaker 2:I always ask are you, are you vegan or vegetarian for ethical reasons, or are you just because? Sometimes people are like, oh yeah, I just heard it was healthy for you to eat more vegetables and not eat meat. And then in that case I'm like, no, let's start eating more meat. But if they say, yeah, for ethical reasons, I don't feel comfortable. I'm not going to be like, oh, there are different ways to go around that. And then the other thing is what is the common denominator between all these diets that we've been going through over the past few years the, the ketogenic diet, the low FODMAP, paleo, like all of that? You have to ask yourself what is the common denominator and why are a lot of people feeling great with this diet and not on that diet? And you know other people are feeling better. You know other people are feeling better with paleo, other people are feeling better with carnivore. And these diets are taking out the garbage in the foods. They are removing the, the highly processed foods, and that's why a lot of people are feeling well on them.
Speaker 2:I don't subscribe to the idea that one diet is a one-size-fits-all. Paleo might be good for me, but not good for you. Carnivore might be good for that person, but not for that person. The other thing you have to look at is sustainability. A lot of these diets are not sustainable for the average Joe. It depends on the person, it depends on the case. What the research shows is, as an example, if you have epilepsy, ketogenic diet is really good for that. Diabetes, ketogenic diet is really good for that, but only if it's sustainable and you don't have to be full keto or full paleo, or if you can't do it right, it is what it is. I mean, yeah, you're not going to be in ketosis and producing as much of the ketone bodies, but at least you won't be having the guard.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the time I will start by increasing protein, because it helps. It helps to stabilize blood sugar, it helps to keep you feeling full and just by doing that, people automatically starts noticing less of a craving for the other stuff. Right, and then they come back in and then I'll be like, okay, let's start removing the, you know, the, the processed grains, the breads, the pasta, the pastry. So another thing is. There's right now actually something where a lot of us are not aware of Right now. We are currently in a fad with milk alternatives, so a lot of people are realizing dairy is bad for you, and I agree. Dairy is one of the most pro-inflammatory foods I know of, especially here in Canada. You might be able to have dairy in Europe and you're completely fine. You come here and you have dairy and you're reacting right.
Speaker 1:Why is that? Why is that before you carry on Like I think?
Speaker 2:it's. I think it's carry on like I think it's. I think it's, yeah, I think it's the type of protein that's produced in in um, in the milk from the type of cows we have here. Have you ever heard of a1 versus a2 milk? Yeah, so I think it's a combination of that.
Speaker 1:Also, the the state of the, the animals are you referring to more like the factory farming though right versus like, because that's. That's the topic for a whole other podcast episode we can go into yeah, so factory farming, mainly factory farming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I gotta be careful where I'm going with this, because you know yeah I understand.
Speaker 1:So yeah, to, to, to kind of bring that into I guess not a little perfect soundbite, but what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that there's different things that impact different people in different environments. Right, you were talking about geography, whether it's Canada versus Europe, and then everyone has different backgrounds, so certain things may not be universally different genetics. So we have to be cautious of that universal, because a statement from either side is that, because one thing with dairy I face that all the time just my little tangent personally react to dairy and I took that out many, many moons ago. But there are some people that fully grew up on it and aren't lactose intolerant, don't have allergies to casein and maybe can tolerate it, and that's their genetic and that's a whole other discussion. I was seeing the influence on my gut in a poor way. That may or may not have been impacting my mood. So I guess what I understood from both of our tangents is that we're not giving a general answer for everybody. Navigating your digestion is an individual experience.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Some, most people that I've come across are not very they don't do well with dairy, but there are people who are okay with dairy. In that case, I'm not going to ask them to remove it if if they're not doing well with it.
Speaker 1:Let's tie it back to mental health and I guess the inflammatory mark that I know we said dairy is inflammatory, but in this context, my understanding of when we say that is in the context you just described like dairy in itself can't just be labeled inflammatory. It means that if you're not digesting and you're not producing the proper enzymes, your body is then not doing what it's supposed to do. We can't break it down. It's your gut is having a little crisis.
Speaker 2:So there's a difference between an intolerance and a sensitivity, and when we're talking about inflammation, we're more talking about sensitivities Within intolerance. So actually hold on, let's say intolerance, sensitivity and allergy. Okay, those are three different words that mean three different things. An intolerance just means that you don't have the enzyme to digest a certain sugar in a food, the enzyme to digest a certain sugar in a food, and then that food or that sugar goes through your gut and then bacteria have access to it. They feast, they proliferate, they love it, they produce byproducts. Your gut doesn't really like those byproducts, whether it's gas or liquid, endotoxins or whatever, and then you get bloated, gassy diarrhea and you fart it out and you're fine.
Speaker 1:Okay, Sorry for that there's no TMI. It's fine, fart it out, and it's fine.
Speaker 2:No TMI? Okay, fart it out and it's fine. Right, you do that frequently enough. You can start developing an intolerance, because there is a lot of toxins being produced that could essentially cause or play a role in inflammation. Now, when we look at sensitivity, so that's an intolerance. Right, it's to the sugar. There's no immune system activation with an intolerance.
Speaker 2:When we are looking at a sensitivity and an allergy, both of those have to do with the protein in the food, not the sugar, right? So when you drink a cup of milk, for example, you're having the sugar lactose, for example and then there are various other proteins in there KC and whey, et cetera, et cetera, an intolerance sorry, a sensitivity and an allergy have to do with the protein in the sugar. Essentially, what's happening is that your immune system is reacting to the proteins and it's producing inflammation allergy. If it's an allergy, right, you get stung by a bee on your neck or you eat a peanut butter sandwich and you're allergic to those things. It's an immediate reaction. That's an IgE immune mediated reaction. It's immediate. It could be anaphylactic, it could be life threatening. It's within minutes and you don't get an EpiPen, you could die. Your throat closes and you could die. You can't breathe. That's an allergy. Sensitivity is a much lower grade reaction. It's delayed. It's an IgG immune-mediated reaction. It's a different branch of the immune system. Ige is an allergy, igg is a sensitivity. You eat some cheese, as an example, and you have a sensitivity to cheese. That means your body is, your immune system is, reacting to the protein in the cheese.
Speaker 2:You could have inflammation, very low-grade inflammation, in the gut that manifests tomorrow or after tomorrow, even as joint pain, knee pain, as skin rash, as headache, brain fog, fatigue, abdominal pain. It could manifest in so many different ways in different people. Dairy for me can manifest as diarrhea. For you it manifests as headaches. Right, it could be so different for different people in how it manifests and when it manifests. Yeah, so that's an important distinction to make. That.
Speaker 2:And the thing about inflammation is it can be directly caused, sorry, directly tied. So correlation to depression, inflammation, depression. So what we are finding now is that they are connected, but again, it's not a one size fits all Inflammation for you might not lead to depression, for me it might lead to depression. And there are so many variables, honestly, to take into account. You know triggers, situations, things that tend to push you. You know other variables vitamin D, nutrient ability or nutrient pool or nutrient pool, burnouts, environmental, et cetera, et cetera. Like there are so many things to take into account when it comes to mental health, gut, microbiome, gut, flora. Absolutely so much, so much.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of things in there I want to come back to is that you've mentioned the when everyone has more of the individualistic response to certain things. And when we're talking about, like you had mentioned, when we take like antibiotics or antifungals and one of the potential consequences is as I unfortunately didn't know about in my early 20s and had like nine rounds of antibiotics in a row is that sometimes we do kill some of the good stuff too. That may throw off our whole system, right. So when we're talking about gut health, like you mentioned, is that whole holistic perspective. And then one thing I wanted to touch on too that we haven't talked about gut health is we've mentioned food quality, we've mentioned sensitivities, intolerances, allergies. We've talked about a briefly about like different genetics and microbiome.
Speaker 1:And one thing is also how stress in itself manifests, like for myself, when I am stressed, I immediately just want to puke, as I've mentioned several times. Right, you get that upset stomach, like that pit in your stomach where you can't hold food down your stomachs all over the place. That in itself is when I'm experiencing something. But also, if we're going to lifestyle, like one of the things I noticed I talk about a lot with some of my clients is hey, are you breathing? Are you eating in a stress state? Are you like running after the bus trying to choose simultaneously, right? So some of those things that before we even talk about what quality of food or like anything else, it's, it's just the base, like some things we can handle. Like are you taking a deep breath to not be in a flight response. Are you chewing your food? Because what's happening in your gut when you're sort of bypassing that and you just start eating? Yeah, if you start eating a whole meal in two seconds and then you get bloated and uncomfortable, what's going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how that connects to mental health. So this is a loaded question and I might lose myself in the answer. But just bring me back if I go on too many tangents. It's not just your intestines, it's mouth to anus. It's one whole tube and you just have different organs along the way. You know, from your mouth to your throat you have the esophagus, comes down to your stomach and then into the first part of the small intestine, the duodenum. You have the gallbladder and liver releasing bile into the small intestine. You have the pancreas as part of that. Then you're going through the small intestine and you have the entrance into the ileocecal valve, into the large intestine and then you have the different sphincters along the way, all the way to the anus. It's one tube Right Along that tube. It's like a forest.
Speaker 2:There are so many different types of microflora and if you understand anything about the ecosystems, if you introduce a new plant into a forest that has no predator, it'll start taking over and it'll throw the whole kind of ecosystem off balance. Or you come and you take out a certain plant that was controlling another plant, or, if you want to talk about animals, you take out the foxes. Now the rabbits' population is going up. Same thing in our gut. You take antibiotics or even herbal antimicrobials. If you take that stuff long enough, you can throw the whole gut microflora off balance to what's out there. The more we learn, the more mind-blown we get and the more connections we're making with everything else. They're connecting microflora to almost everything now to diabetes, to obesity, to Alzheimer's, to everything Skin health, everything so cool. It's crazy. It's crazy. We're like the teenagers in human years right now. We think we know so much and then the more we know, the more like oh shit, we don't really know a lot. The microflora is so important to everything mental health, physical health, everything. What we know is for sure is the greater the biodiversity, the healthier the person is overall right. So when you take things that throw this biodiversity off, that reduce the number of different types of microflora, essentially we are seeing more diseases later on.
Speaker 2:So what you eat does not only feed you, it also feeds your gut flora. The biggest way to influence the diversity or the biodiversity of this microflora is through food, not through taking probiotics or supplements or et cetera, et cetera. I mean you can supplement prebiotics, which is essentially food right, eating a great diversity of foods and, even better, eating a great diversity of food. That's specific to your ancestors, because your genetics play a role in that. It's a very complex intertwined system. It's not just like the bacteria work on their own, separate from your body. We are constantly working together. They are part of us. Without our microflora, we would essentially die. There are bacteria in our gut that are producing nutrients that is essential for our body kind of tying it back to our little dairy conversation.
Speaker 1:If your ancestors had a bunch of dairy, who knows versus one that didn't, I'm thinking like a Scandinavian heritage versus what? Who doesn't eat a lot of cheese? Like by blank. But? But the other part, the second part, was, I guess, what's more like now in our lifetime, we have a lot more people of mixed race and we have all of these mishmash ancestors. So how do we which is awesome, but also how do you navigate that, like medically, like?
Speaker 2:so, okay, okay, let's say let's say you're, you're a french background. They eat a lot of bigots and cheese, right, maybe that's just the stereotype, but let's say they eat a lot of baguettes and cheese. Right, maybe that's just the stereotype, but let's say they eat historically, they ate a lot of dairy and they and you know, you're a French background and you moved to Canada. Is the dairy here the same as in France? Is the dairy now the same as 500 years ago? We've only really started eating the way we're eating now about 10,000 years ago. Is that enough for our bodies to evolve significantly to deal with these nutrients? And I'm using dairy as an example. It could be gluten, it could be grains, it could be whatever. It could be grains, it could be, you know, rice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some people, their genetics predispose them, for example, to diabetes, and they don't have to eat really poorly to get diabetes, right? So because of their family history, just because they're chronically stressed and they eat a croissant, maybe every once or three times a week, they end up getting diabetes, whereas other people, their genetics aren't predisposing them as much to diabetes and they eat really poorly. They are having McDonald's for breakfast, lunch and dinner and they don't end up getting diabetes for breakfast, lunch and dinner and they don't end up getting diabetes. So that's called epigenetics. So they yeah, it's so much more complex than just, oh, eat healthy or don't stress. Right, and then going back to that idea of stress, and how does that affect your gut health? Right, I started by saying the gut is not just the abdomen, intestines, it's the digestive system, it's the whole mouth to anus.
Speaker 2:Right, when you are stressed, you go into something called fight or flight. So for those people that are listening who don't know what fight or flight is when we were hunters and gatherers right, you're coming out of your cave, you're picking your apple and all of a sudden there's a lion running towards you. Your body evolved to go into a protective mechanism called a fight or flight response. Your pupils dilate, you see clearer, your heart starts to beat faster, adrenaline rushing, cortisol rushing through your blood. Your stress response kicks into action very quickly. Blood gets redirected from the brain and the organs to the big muscles. You either fight the lion or you run away, and then five minutes later, or maybe even two minutes later, you were dead or you've survived. So it's supposed to be a short burst of intense stress response and you've gotten through it or you're not Okay, and then later on your body switches from going through it or you're not Okay and then later on your body switches from going to fight or flight into rest and digest. That's when your your you know your body redirects blood to your intestines and your stomach to digest and helps absorb nutrients from the food and et cetera, et cetera. Right, so you can't be in both at the same time. You can't be in fight or flight and rest and digest at the same time. You're either in fight or flight or rest and digest, and it's not always to the same extent. You're not severely fight or flight or severely rest and digest. You can be in a little bit of one and a little bit less of the other.
Speaker 2:Nowadays we don't have lines running after us. We have our brains to do that for us. I got to worry about paying the bills, I got to worry about making that assignment, I got to worry about this person, I got to stress about that person. So we have chronic but low grade stress. So we're in chronically low grade fight or flight responses. What that means is our stomach is not, is not primed to produce the acid and the digestive enzymes. Our gut is not primed to digest. It's being put on hold in the back burner because we're too busy with being stressed.
Speaker 2:Now the important part is when you don't make enough stomach acid. It affects everything up and everything down. Okay, if you don't make enough stomach acid. So just a little bit about the human anatomy. We have our mouth going down into our throat, that's the esophagus, and then our esophagus empties into the stomach, right about where the ribs meet. Okay, Between the esophagus and the stomach there's this sphincter. It's kind of like for lack of a better way to explain it it's actually like an anus. It's not a valve, it's not like a trap door. Yeah, it's an anus between our stomach and esophagus. It tightens to close between our stomach and esophagus. It tightens to close and it widens to open right when we have enough stomach acid, and that means when we have liquid, because you can have liquid in there. That's not acidic. Originally, the stomach acid needs to be about a pH of two. The lower the number, the more acidic it is okay. When we have enough stomach acid, that lower esophageal sphincter, that LES, closes tighter.
Speaker 2:Now when you're stressed, you're not going to have as much stomach acid, that LES starts to widen a little bit and we often will see a lot of reflux heartburn. In chronic stress people We'll see a lot of reflux heartburn because of this, because of low stomach acid. In conventional medicine, again, there's no issue with I mean, there is a time and place for everything and there isn't a problem with symptomatic relief as long as you're also treating the root cause right. But in conventional medicine oftentimes the treatment is a proton pump inhibitor, something that kills your stomach acid even more. So it brings it up to like a pH six or seven, and then now even the fluid coming up, you're not feeling any signs and symptoms. You're like hallelujah, I'm cured. But it doesn't mean it fixed the root cause right. So we often end up seeing reflux heartburn, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:And then even a bigger problem is well, why do we even have stomach acid originally in the first place? So that we can digest food. If you don't digest, you're not going to absorb nutrients, right? If you don't digest your food, you're going to provide that food to bacteria in your gut later on that shouldn't have had access to it. And now that bacteria is going to eat and proliferate and it's going to throw your gut microbiome off balance. That bacteria is going to produce byproducts. Those byproducts might not be beneficial for us, might be harmful.
Speaker 2:You know the bacteria in your gut and the different parasites. They poop as well. They poop and sometimes that poop gets absorbed through the gut, causes inflammation, stimulates the immune system. Inflammation, mental health right. So there's a lot of different ways that what you eat or stress can affect your gut health and hence your mental health. Not to forget. I mean stress does put a significant negative effect, whether it's good or bad, on your mental health. I love what I do. I work 12 hours a day. I'm going to burn out. That's going to make me feel low mood and anxious.
Speaker 1:It's the dose of what you're talking about, right, like there was a previous episode where I was speaking to you know, a mom of three. We're talking about balance and one thing we talked about is that it's not a destination, it's just you're constantly navigating and I, I kind of I love. Thank you so much for all of that. I love the science part and to some of that we forget that there's a whole part to us that we're not consciously in control of. Right, because sometimes those thoughts and those, especially if you're in a stressed state, if what you were mentioning is like stressing about people or bills or whatever, that takes over right, your thoughts become very you're ruminating, you're thinking about a whole bunch of stuff, but also you're very common is that we kind of forget about our health or we kind of put it on the side and then you end up with a gosh, shit, I have to do something about this now.
Speaker 1:And then that's where, like you know, having some of those quick symptom reliefs or the things from an SSRI or is like symptom management because you left it too far, then now it's no longer they need the help. Now, before they're, they're in a place to come have a conversation with you. So I have a couple more questions. You spoke about this a little bit that you've noticed most of your practice has burnout and I guess maybe that's because it's a specialty you have that you work with people that have chronic stress. So how have you noticed, maybe that evolution pre because you've been in practice for a while now, like pre pandemic, during, and now like how has it evolved for your patients and yourself as a as a professor, as a practitioner?
Speaker 2:I either, when it comes to that, a practitioner, I either. When it comes to that, I either will have a patient coming and saying I'm feeling tired all the time, or they come in saying I feel low mood all the time, or depressed, or right. Sometimes the brain can mistake these two. So when they come in saying I feel tired all the time, I question them, them, I try to take their case, and it comes out that they're depressed, right, whereas other times they say I'm feeling depressed and more mood and I question them. It's not depression, it's it's fatigue, right, and obviously there's, there's like it's physiological fatigue. So there's. There are different degrees of depression as well, right? So how I usually will tell the difference and, by the way, sometimes it's both at the same time and I'll get into that in a bit how I usually will tell the difference is if you have iron deficiency, anemia, or you're B12 deficient, or you're not eating enough, like physiologically fatigued, you're depleted. Usually, if you try to do a physical activity episode or, sorry, you try to participate in some physical activity you will crash, right, makes sense. You have low iron, you try to go for a run, you're going to feel exhausted after you're not going to feel so good. But if it's low mood and you try to do physical, a run, you're going to feel exhausted. After You're not going to feel so good. But if it's low mood and you try to do physical activity, oftentimes you'll feel higher energy. This is just because the brain will will see that, oh, I feel better mentally, I must have more energy and they'll just feel quote unquote higher energy. So these are ways I usually will be able to tell the difference for those people and that helps guide me as to what treatment plan to put into place. And I often I would say like 80-90% of my patients get referred to psychotherapists, because that's a big part of even burnout. I feel like everybody should be seeing therapists here, here, here, here, yes.
Speaker 2:So oftentimes with burnout I see both. I see physiological fatigue and mental fatigue and low mood, low mood, slash, anxiety. It's not a yes or no thing, it's how burnt out I am, am I or uh, uh, you know how much do I need to keep pushing myself to, to, to keep my head above the water, right, it's. It's feeling like, hey, I just, I'm done, I just want to sit and stare at the ceiling and do nothing. It's when you get into that state.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes you have the low motivation. You don't want to do anything because you're exhausted. Even if you push yourself, you might start feeling lightheaded, low energy after the physical activity and this is often complicated with low motivation to eat or eating unhealthy. Or once you start getting really into the deeper mental state of depression, there's more of a sense of hopelessness and you're just in a deep dark hole that you can't really get out of. And with depression it's not really a sadness, it's an apathy, it's a lack of emotion, it's not hey, I don't really feel joy. I don't feel excitement from life, from things I used to enjoy. I love playing soccer. If I'm depressed, I'll be like no, I don't want to play, I just want to rest. That's burnout, that's burnout, and burnout can play a role in depression.
Speaker 2:Depending on where you are in there, you'll need different treatments. Right, if you are in depression, I will often recommend supplements. If you are in severe depression like if you tell me right, I'm thinking I have thoughts of harming myself I'm going to be referring you to your GP or to the emergency to get on medications right away Because, again, there's a time and place for everything. You know, medications should not be looked down upon. It is the way I like to think about it. It's like you're in a sinking ship and the sea is really rough. Medication is like that lifeline that buoy, that buoy you get pulled onto shore, you repair your ship, wait for the weather to improve and then you go back onto the sea. It's something to help support you while you're going through severe depression.
Speaker 1:That's a really good visual.
Speaker 2:And I can use natural herbal supplements like that if it's more of a mild depression. But it's not just a pill that you're taking, it's pills lifestyle. When it comes to supporting people with mental health or with burnout especially, the last thing you want to be, you want to say is like oh yeah, you're, you're feeling burnt out, you're overwhelmed here. Take some more stuff and do this and let's put more on your plate. The last thing you want to do is that you want to. You want to take it easy. Uh, one step at it.
Speaker 2:Again, it really depends on the person and where they're at. You want to take it easy and one step at a time, and support them in the best way possible. Uh, to to get them feeling better as quick as possible, and then, once they're doing more of that, then you know they're feeling better. Then you as possible, and then, once they're doing more of that, then they're feeling better. Then you can start looking deeper into the dietary stuff and lifestyle stuff. Physical activity in some research trials has been shown to be on par with some antidepressants. But then I'm not going to be like, hey, okay, I want you to start lifting weights three times a week on the first appointment, when you're like I'm completely depleted, I have no juice left and I just I want to quit everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the opposite of client-centric or patient-centric. You're not listening to someone in front of view. So kind of tying it back into the pandemic portion where I was wondering if you'd notice, do you feel like there was an increase in burnout rate, or have you noticed that in your practice since the pandemic?
Speaker 2:100%. 100%. I am seeing and even now I mean it's calmed down a bit, but even now I'm seeing a lot of burnout A lot of people and I think we're going to keep seeing it for the next couple of years. With physical, when you go to the gym and you lift heavy weights, your muscles feel sore and you get over it within a couple of days.
Speaker 2:With mental burnout, it takes a lot longer to get over that mental stress. You go through a severe stressful episode. You will take weeks, months, even years to recoup. It's not like you keep feeling really poor and then a year later, all of a sudden you feel great. It's a gradual improvement, given that you're doing things to help support yourself, Right. But but I am, I'm definitely seeing a lot of low mood due to burnout. I'm seeing a lot of anxiety due to burnout.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing burnout in general and that's actually a lot of people coming to me for IV vitamin therapy are for predominantly burnout. Essentially it's and I explained like this to patients it's not, it's not treating the root cause, it's supporting them so that they can feel a bit better, so that they're able to implement the changes they need to make in order to keep feeling better, right, You're burnt out here. We're going to supercharge you with these vitamins and minerals, right, so that you have that little boost of energy, so that you can okay, now I can make a meal and actually eat some real food. Oh, that's another thing that I find a lot of people are lacking is real food. We are overfed and undernourished in our society. We eat a lot of food. Actually, hold on, Let me rephrase that we eat a lot, but we don't need enough food.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nutrient light, nutrient void. And I think that opens up the other can of worms with if people are over work 12 hours, like you're not going to be like cool, let me now cook a whole meal and cut up all these vegetables. Like there there's, it's such a massive web of like you want more nutrient dense foods but yet also it's like the lifestyle in itself isn't supporting. So we're sort of creating this perfect storm to make people more burned out and then yeah, exactly, you're burnt out.
Speaker 2:and then you're depleting yourself even more by putting more stress into your work and worrying about stuff. Worrying about work Just excessive worry will burn you out as well. And you're under eating. Right, You're emptying your cup, but you're not filling it up. We fill our cup up. We fill our cup up by eating, digesting and absorbing. You're not only what you eat, you are what you eat, digest and absorb what you eat.
Speaker 1:You are what you eat, digest and absorb. That was really good. I think that kind of summarized everything you said is that you're depleting your cup but you're not filling it up, and I think that's very true. And then that in itself what are you doing to fill the cup? Is it nutrient quality or high quality foods? Is it exercise? Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping?
Speaker 2:enough. Social connection yeah, exercise actually. So social connections, exactly, exercise. So that's something to be cautious of, because if you are burning out, physical activity is another form to deplete your cup. Actually, right, if you're burnt out, when you go and lift heavy or you do a HIIT training or circuit training exercise and you're go, go, go, you're pushing your adrenal glands are working, that's a stressful episode, right. And the reason why exercise is good for us? Because, one, it causes the release of that serotonin and dopamine and the happy hormones and, two, it puts your body under so much stress for a brief period that when your body is not exercising, it's finding whatever task it's doing much easier, because it's like, hey, I'm used to lifting those heavy weights, this is nothing right. So it sets your body up to find general life easier than during the exercise episodes.
Speaker 2:If you're burnt out, I often will ask people to calm down on the exercise, to reduce it. Do more like yin building exercise, like yoga, tai chi, go for a walk amongst the green trees or take deep breaths. Nurture, feed your lungs, your lungs, feed your lungs. Get enough sleep, get good quality sleep so important. Sleep diet. Eat enough right, those are so important to fill your cup up.
Speaker 1:We've mentioned that we can't give general advice to people, but if someone is struggling right now and they're not sure where to start, it's that whole hey, how are you going to fill your cup? And that could be a number, any of the things you just listed. Also, if it's beyond, something simple like so basically, if you, let's say, you've gone through the checklist, I'm eating protein, I've had water, I'm sleeping, I'm exercising, but I still don't feel better, then you're like cool, this is when you obviously need external intervention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, before I forget, I want to say something that I think is really important here If you are going and this is for the listeners if you are going through stuff right now, it is extreme it is extremely important that you seek professional help. Don't just trust yourself to get yourself out of it when you are going through a situation, especially if there are thoughts of self-harm, right. So when it comes to thinking of self-harm, there's active suicidal ideations and then there's passive suicidal ideations. The difference between that with a passive suicidal ideation, it is essentially you know you're going through a really tough time and you're thinking. You know you have random thoughts coming into your head thinking, oh, I wish I was never born or I wish I was dead or I wish I was in here. You know it'll make things. I won't feel this pain right, and that's kind of a normal thought to have. You know it makes sense. You're going through really painful times and it can physically hurt right In your chest, in your heart, in your gut, wherever you're feeling it. Tight chest whatever. In your chest, in your heart, in your gut, wherever you're feeling it. Tight chest whatever, right. Those are normal thoughts to have.
Speaker 2:When it comes to active, suicidal ideations. This is when you start thinking of oh, I can think of you know, I can think of this way to harm myself. Or maybe, if I just start doing this, or you notice yourself making plans in your head, even though if you, if it's for a split second, then you automatically snap out of it. You're like what, that was stupid. Why am I thinking like that? Get professional help.
Speaker 2:It's really important because when you are in that mindset, it's difficult to talk yourself out of it. You're not thinking clearly. You can't say, oh, my brain will just get me out of it. Your brain is the issue, the cognitive process is the issue. You can't just rationalize yourself out of it, even if it's as much as being like, hey, call your friend up, call somebody up, you don't have to tell them why, but get them to be with you. During those times when you're having those thoughts. Just hey, just be with me, be close to me, watch me, you know, be around me. Let's just hang out, get on support right, go, you know, check yourself into the emergency. It's really important to not trust yourself to rationalize yourself out of it. So that's an important thing to remember. Don't just self-treat. See a naturopathic doctor. See a medical doctor.
Speaker 1:See friend, see somebody thank you for making that distinction for the listeners. Um, I know that sometimes people even need to hear that it's especially if you're. I know that that's. I mean, that's the most serious it can get is when you're having those self-harm thoughts, but even simple things, of just thinking that we have to do it all on our own and that there are certain things and I want to finish up with talking about the mental, the overall medical system again, but just to sort of segue into that Everything we've talked about is how interconnected everything is and that there is an ecosystem like the mind and gut are connected, but not just like in one way and and direct ways, indirect ways, the whole body responds to the gut, our environment.
Speaker 1:So everything is this massive web and there are certain things that we have control over. So whether it's our food choices, um, like whether we're breathing, what we're doing with our exercise choices, and there are certain things out of our control, looking at it, from getting those resources where they're not your expertise, like I have a therapist, I have yourself, I have various other professionals and I can know things. I can tell you about it, but that doesn't mean that I am my best support system at all times. I've literally built an army of support around me. I've built a network of various professionals. So everybody like absolutely Right, and that's it's. It's so necessary.
Speaker 2:Same here, like I. I I'm aware of this stuff, but I will. If I ever go into a state like that, I know that I need to seek. Even though I'm a professional in this. I will seek someone because you have to have that outside perspective.
Speaker 1:You can't, you can't just do it all on your own you can't, and that's why you have, you know, patients that come to you, because then they get that support system. And then, when it's in your, in your treatment plan, or like you can and that's why you have, you know, patients that come to you, because then they get that support system and then when it's in your, in your treatment plan, or like you can create that treatment plan that supports them great, if not, like you mentioned, you would send them to the gp, you would send them to psychotherapists, like I've even worked with you, uh, with certain patients where you felt that I could, you know, create that in between support before they see you next. Right, it's always like it's a collaborative effort and that's how we can support one another. And so I want to kind of wrap up our whole chat to go back to what we were talking about at the very beginning. When we're talking about how the medical system like, unfortunately, nurses, doctors that's what everyone therapists are all like burning out, and we've talked.
Speaker 1:Obviously, the point of this specific chat was more about the mind. So my question to you is recognizing that we're aware that naturopathic medicine and a lot of other modalities aren't necessarily covered by OHIP, they're not part of our system right now and which really grinds my gears, because now the susceptibility is a problem, like someone could really benefit from working with you but if, like, they don't have that resources like anyway, I kind of answer my own question from my perspective. But for you, what do you feel is missing from the mental health care realm? And then what would be like a utopia, ideal situation for you where we're supporting mental health? What would that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the first step to supporting mental health in our society is definitely to recognize first, recognize and become aware, right, recognize that, yeah, people are burning out and, irrespective of what social media tells you, you know, no matter how good those people's lives look on social media, a lot of the people, like a huge percent of the population, is burning out or tired, right, we've gone through a lot over the past couple of years as to as to so, that part like so, lack of medicine, naturopathic medicine, um, honestly, it's, it's. That's a tricky, that's a tricky answer. That's a tricky question to answer. I don't really know. I mean, for myself, I have a certain number of spots on my patient list where I offer sliding scale and I know a lot of naturopathic doctors who do that, and it does not hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to ask. It doesn't mean you're any less if you're not able to afford the uh, the treatment. Always good to ask, right?
Speaker 2:Uh, I know that in toronto, the canadian college of naturopathic medicine, you're able to see uh fourth-year students who are supervised by by uh, fully licensed naturopathic doctors for a very small fee. Right, in terms of psychotherapy, I've referred multiple patients. To excuse me. There's a university here, oh wow. So there's St Paul University, where they offer, again for a really small fee, to see a fourth-year student, essentially, I think, pro bono as well, but I think there might be a list to get on and then, honestly, p2, a lot of the time the basics are overlooked.
Speaker 2:So sleep, eat well, eat enough, move, and when somebody is burnt out or somebody is feeling depressed, the motivation is going to be low, depressed and the low motivation, the motivation is going to be low. Sometimes it could be as easy as you know getting your partner to hold you accountable or getting a friend to hold you accountable or a family member. Hey, let's start going to bed at 1130 latest. Right, set an alarm. Let's set alarms on our phones to make sure we are drinking water, enough water. Something as easy as drinking enough water, it can make a huge difference. Let's set an alarm to make sure we eat. A lot of people are not eating enough, skipping lunch.
Speaker 1:In that big ecosystem of wellness, right, we have our individual things that we're responsible for and part of I don't remember the exact number, but there's a lot, a lot right, the medical system's overburdened and there is as we talked about earlier, so the system in itself is overwhelmed and within it there are people that are running it. This is like human beings that are also navigating their own issues. So I think it's a collective that we all take our individual responsibilities to do what we can within our control. Like you know, like the food, water, move, try and go to sleep, hire coaches, have friends, if that's not a resource. Join, listen to some podcasts, if that's a starting point. And then, beyond that, like, my vision is that we have more of what we're already you and I already doing on a bigger scale, where there is that more of that integrative Like inter-referral system Exactly, and so like it's not like right now I have a few clients.
Speaker 1:Well, myself, actually, my family doctor just retired and I was like cool, but I have the privilege of having a network of people I can just literally call and ask a question, but the amount of people that their GPs have burned out at the moment in Canada and they don't even.
Speaker 1:And then the way the system's set up right now is, if you want a simple thing, is we were talking about nutrient deficiencies. Well, you won't know unless you have a blood test, and you won't know until your GP gives it to you, because I can't just walk up to a lab and get a blood test. So that's part of this. That system in itself is frustrating from all sides, from practitioners, from doctors, and so I do hope, I hope that we have more of this big web where it's more open, and I opened our conversation with talking about the quack system, and that's part of it too. Right, it's like nothing is. Everything has its place. If we're honoring each other's areas of focus and areas of expertise and can work collaboratively, it is for the betterment of all of us collectively, because obviously the system as it is is not fucking working yeah, agreed, I can't.
Speaker 2:I can't count how many patients just over the last month told me that their their gp. So either they don't have a gp or their gp just closed and left. They're burning out something family, some like mental health. Whatever burnout done, I'm out.
Speaker 1:I appreciate this conversation. I know we could keep going, but thank you for your time and the one thing I wanted to maybe part two of this is we've talked about burnout and depression, but I'm super curious to learn more about the mental disorders, other things like bipolar schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress. I really or like I'm curious how the gut and the mind look when you're talking about mental disorders, cause some of these things were fell more into the mental health realm, whereas things within our control, but what there is like if we get into the epigenetics and we get into certain issues that are diagnosed, conditions that I'm super, super curious and like absolutely just just, I don't know, I can't speak to it. I want to. I wonder if we can talk about that part of the gut. Next, the burnout's inevitable. It can impact anyone everywhere. So just to wrap up, is there anything else you want to leave our listeners with?
Speaker 2:I hope you guys enjoyed the talk and that you got something out of it. And if there was just one thing that you got out of this is don't underestimate the simple stuff, the foundation. You know, if there are any architects out there, you'll know that to build a high rise building, you need a strong base of support, otherwise that building will topple over. Building will topple over. There's something called the therapeutic order of treatment, which is talking about focusing on the basics first. Before you know your elbow hurts, look at the basics first before jumping to surgery. Right? So it's going from least invasive treatment and treatment approach to most invasive.
Speaker 2:So that's where I think, unfortunately, a lot of patients come to see me after they've been sick for a long time, and I know I said that naturopathic doctors, I think, tend to be better at the chronic stuff versus the acute stuff. But a lot of the time I can catch the stuff before it becomes chronic, like somebody who is going into prediabetes or starting to gain weight and they're dieting and seeing their GP on these medications to lose weight. Seeing their GP and on these medications to lose weight, but the root cause is potentially their thyroid or something else, and I could have caught it before they became diabetic. So oftentimes seeing a naturopathic doctor alongside seeing conventional medical doctor is very beneficial.
Speaker 1:A proactive approach, so that we're not waiting until everything's on fire and then being like, oh fuck, that Exactly All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, for your knowledge. I always learn so much from you.
Speaker 2:Thank you too, it was a pleasure.
