Join Jeremy and Zach from the Fit Mess podcast as they talk about how guys deal and DON'T deal with their mental health, and what you can do to encourage and support them as partners, parents, and friends.
In Episode 83, we're looking at
▪️ The loneliness and pressure men feel that can lead to anxiety and depression,
▪️ How to recognize and communicate emotional needs, and
▪️ How to model emotions and emotional intelligence to raise strong, confident, and mentally healthy boys.
Me sure to check out The Fit Mess Podcast and follow Zach and Jeremy on
Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
Help others find this resource so they can calm, confident, and have more fun by leaving a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review wherever you listen.
Find me on Instagram
Find me on Facebook
Schedule your consultation and let's talk coaching!
Thanks for listening!
Join Jeremy and Zach from the Fit Mess podcast as they talk about how guys deal and DON'T deal with their mental health, and what you can do to encourage and support them as partners, parents, and friends.
In Episode 83, we're looking at
▪️ The loneliness and pressure men feel that can lead to anxiety and depression,
▪️ How to recognize and communicate emotional needs, and
▪️ How to model emotions and emotional intelligence to raise strong, confident, and mentally healthy boys.
Me sure to check out The Fit Mess Podcast and follow Zach and Jeremy on
Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
Help others find this resource so they can calm, confident, and have more fun by leaving a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review wherever you listen.
Find me on Instagram
Find me on Facebook
Schedule your consultation and let's talk coaching!
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to the More Than Anxiety podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I'm the Life Coach for stressed out and anxious women who want more out of life. I'm here to help you create a life you love to live, where anxiety isn't holding you back. Get ready for a lighthearted approach to managing anxiety through actionable steps, a lot of truth, talk and inspiration to take action so you walk away feeling confident, calm and ready to live. Let's get to it. Hey there, welcome to episode 83 of the More Than Anxiety podcast. I cannot wait to bring the interview that I just did to you.
Megan Devito:This week I talked with Zach and Jeremy from the Fit Mess podcast. We talked all about men's mental health, what it's like for guys to be dealing with anxiety and depression and overwhelm all of the things that women experience very differently. We talked about the similarities and how we experience it the same and really what guys need for support so that they can get the help that they need. Let's not pretend that anything mental health related is strictly with women. We kind of get an easy pass. Not that it's easier for us, just that it's expected that we're going to have emotions and we're going to have big feelings. Guys, they're kind of told to put it in a box and shove it on a shelf, to get over it and pretend like nothing's wrong. So they work a little harder and they get a little more anxious and a little more depressed.
Megan Devito:We're going to talk about all of that, about everything they want you to know about men's mental health and about how we can help younger boys and teenagers so that we can really stop this whole epidemic from the ground up. Help our guys, help our young boys start to feel better and knock out this whole problem across the country from every side. We're talking about men's roles, women's roles and how we can come together to help everybody together. You guys, you're going to really love this podcast. Give it a listen and be sure that you go and follow the Fit Mess - MeSS podcast.
Megan Devito:Enjoy the episode. Thank you everybody for joining me again on this episode. I am really excited this week to be able to bring Jeremy and Zach from the Fit Mess podcast to you to talk about men's mental health, because I talk a lot about high achieving women, but there are so many guys out there that need to hear this and they need the help, and who better to ask about men's mental health than men, because certainly women, we have our own way of doing it. So, Jeremy and Zach, thank you for being here.
Megan Devito:Can you tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got started.
Zach:Sure. So, like you said, we have our podcast called the Fit Mess and we're trying to speak to other men who have mental health issues. Both Jeremy and I had our own demons. We needed to fight and get through and lots and lots and lots of years of struggling and getting the normal advice from other men along the way of just put it in a box, put it on a shelf, forget about it, rub dirt on it and just move on with your life. That advice doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for us and we had to go through and kind of heal ourselves from some traumas that we had in our lives. Me specifically had a lot of neglect and abuse from parents and foster homes and things like that. So just lots and lots of things I had to work on. And once I finally figured out, I was like, hey, I need to take care of me, I need to deal with the sensitive side of me, I need to do these things. I started to get better. It's amazing. I started to feel happier.
Megan Devito:How'd that happen?
Zach:It was weird, really, really weird. But yeah, fast forward like 20 years of working on myself, Jeremy and I met and he's been through his own story and I'll let him share that. But once we bonded and we started talking about these things and sharing with each other and being vulnerable as two guys, it was really really helpful and healing and very therapeutic for me and him. And one day, like Jeremy's done podcasts for a long time, and one day I was like we should tell other men about this. We should do a podcast. And he said absolutely not. I'll turn it over to him to fill in his side of it.
Jeremy:Yeah, and I said absolutely not because I felt like who are we? We have no business talking about this. We're not authorities, we're not experts, we're not therapists, we're not even coaches. We're a couple of guys doing a few things.
Jeremy:And Zach kept pushing the idea and I started surveying the space and seeing what people were doing with podcasting and I'd done a comedy show for years prior to that so a totally different avenue to go down this, rather than trying to make people laugh over fart jokes or whatever. And ultimately I found that the people that I learned the most from are the ones that are not on the mountaintop, but they're the ones that are just right around the corner that are showing me the way to get to the mountaintop eventually, and so I really liked that and I also had a long background in interviewing and so I just thought, yeah, let's share our experience and let's bring in experts to fill the knowledge gaps where they exist.
Jeremy:And after several years of that and hundreds of interviews, those knowledge gaps have gotten smaller and smaller. But we're kind of leaning more on our own experiences and what we've learned in the process to help other guys that are like we were 10, 15, 20 years ago, at the beginning of this thing, going I'm sick of my own crap. I'm sick of feeling like this I don't know what to do, I don't know where to turn, I'm alone and I don't know how to get out of this mess. We're hoping that that guy finds this show and says, ah, they've got some ideas, they've done this, let's, let's figure out how to work together and solve this problem.
Megan Devito:I think it's interesting that you said, you know, put it in the box and put a little, you know, put it on a shelf, rub a little dirt on it and it's fine. Which, as we were talking before the episode, I said I just want my husband to listen to this because that is the thing, and I mean as a person, that's like you can put it in the box, but it's like it, you know, it's going to claw its way out. For me, it was always this experience where I could put it in a box, but that was sort of like oh, just relax, you know, just calm down to me, but put it in the box is just calm down' and we know that that's like the worst advice that you could ever give anyone when they're anxious.
Megan Devito:So what, like what is it that makes anxiety and depression for men? Like I know what it is for women, I can explain that, but how is it for men? Like, how do you feel? Like maybe it's different? Do you feel like it's different all around, or is it more just socialization? Like what do you think that is?
Jeremy:I think the biggest difference is the societal expectation of how it's dealt with. I think that for women it's much more acceptable to to show emotion, to to share, to turn to a friend and say I need help with this. Where, guys, if you have a weakness, you certainly, you certainly don't ask for help, you certainly don't talk about it, you don't share publicly that you're struggling with your feelings, right Like that is not something men do, and I hope that's changing, because I've found that the more I share, the more I talk about this, the more people want to help. They want to help show you the way out. They want to share their experience and the things that have worked for them. And that's the other part of this is that what works for one person doesn't always work for another.
Jeremy:I've gone down to all of the different paths of medication to deal with depression and all of them led to more problems than they solved. So for me, medication was not the answer. For me, it was years of trial and error, years of doing different things that ultimately did not work, until I started to find the things that did, and a lot of them, and I say this knowing full well that there are depressed people listening to this trying to find answers. But I found that for me I had to just get out of my own way. I had to stop letting the depression guide the story. There's so many things in my life that I did not pursue because I was afraid what happens if I wake up depressed. How am I going to deal with that? I can't let that dictate how I live my life anymore.
Jeremy:So we talked to somebody a while ago who said when somebody comes and dumps a bunch of garbage on your front lawn, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility to clean it up.
Jeremy:And so that helped me abandon this victim mentality of I've had this rough life, I've had this tough experience, I've lived with this thing, so things should come naturally, come easily to me because I'm at this disadvantage. It's the complete opposite. The obstacle for me has been the depression, and I've been running away from it and not dealing with it. And the minute that I found tools to help keep it at bay, naturally and in ways that worked for me, that's when I've won the most. The more I've leaned into it and decided I'm going to be responsible for the way I feel. That's how I've really taken it back and again, like I know there's people that like clinically it's deep, it's dark, there is medication needed. I get it. I get that. But I also know that I've never felt better than when I decided I'm done feeling that way, I'm not going to let that decide how I live my life anymore.
Megan Devito:Yeah, yeah. What do you think, zach? What's your answer?
Zach:I totally agree, I think for men and women. I think it's just different, right, the societal norms of what's expected of a man and what's expected of a woman. It's just different. So I run on the anxious level, right, I'm not as depressed. I get depressed because I'm anxious, which is a circle that sometimes I get into. But the things that I'm anxious about are very different than what a woman would be anxious about. I mean, there are commonalities, sure, we're anxious about work and presentations and things like that. I will go outside with nine days' worth of scraggly beard grown in and I don't care, I'm not anxious about that in any way, shape or form. My daughter, on the other hand, won't leave the house unless she's got seven layers of makeup on, so she's anxious about something very very different than what I'm anxious about, but, like Jeremy said, he hit on it there.
Zach:What I found is, even as a guy, we're brought up to really keep that stuff inside, not talk about it, not share it and figure it out yourself. I found the and that's supposed to be the way it works and that's the way we're supposed to get through life. And I've now found the complete opposite that the more that I share about what I'm feeling, the help that I need in that moment shows up. And it's not like magical. This isn't like the universe or anything like that. It's just if you tell somebody you feel X, they might know somebody or they might turn you to somebody else who does know something about it. And you're never going to find a solution if you don't ask or if you don't go search for it. And I think that has been the number one difference for me as a guy that we just don't do. We don't ask for help, we don't share our feelings, we're not vulnerable, and my girlfriend gives me crap about it sometimes because I am sensitive. I share my feelings and she's like oh my God, not this again. I'm like but yes, this again. This is how I get through things.
Zach:Once I figured out that I do have to feel my emotions, I can feel them. I can hurt, I can cry, I can be sad, I can be angry, but once I feel them, I can process them and I can move on. Jeremy jokes with me all the time when my ex-wife and I decided to divorce. Even though I initiated it, it was still a sad moment. It was loss. Right, it was a. It was. You know, it was something that I had to feel and I just let those feelings hit me for three days and I did a lot of crying and I did a lot of just letting everything roll over me and about three days later, I was like okay, I'm good, I've done it.
Zach:And people joke all the time. They're like, oh, did you just choose three days? No, it just took three days because I processed. If I hadn't done that, I would have been miserable for six months.
Megan Devito:I think you're right that the themes of what we, you know, the things that we worry about for sure, like women, are like, oh, I looked horrible, what did they think about me?
Megan Devito:And like, the things that we worry about may not be the same. I mentioned earlier that mine, I had really incredible health anxiety from about third grade until I was almost 40, where I was like, yeah, I'm dying, like died of everything, right, but nothing at all which is a miracle, I guess. But I wonder, like, is there a re like some really common themes that you noticed, like these are would, be like - if you were to make like a top five of like these are the things that are giving men the most grief or struggle in terms of mental health. Is it often finances or is it these things that maybe we don't even know about, like as women? Like if I know that my husband, I'm like why are you so grouchy all the time? Like if I can notice these signs or these symptoms of of you know someone being anxious or being depressed, what would be some things that you feel like are just, these are the things that guys are dealing with. Maybe that we're not picking up that like no, this isn't a big thing for them.
Zach:Yeah, I would. I mean, this is, this is for me, this is what I've seen this in, Jeremy, and I've seen this across the board with with many, many men, and this is not something that just men experience. But I would say the number one thing is really fear of failure in some way shape or form. Right, what if I'm not enough? What if I can't provide for my family?
Zach:I remember years ago talking to my therapist about, you know, I was upset about a job related thing and I forget the rabbit hole that we went down. But it literally ended up being I'm upset about this thing because if I can't do it, I'm going to lose my job. If I lose my job, I'm going to lose my house. If I lose my house, I'm going to lose, you know, my family won't have anywhere to live. And if I lose, if I lose that, I'm going to lose my family and I'm going to pee a piece of crap and at the end of the day, like it wasn't that big of a deal, like it catastrophized into this big big thing.
Zach:So I think for all of us, like I personally think, it's fear of failure in some way shape or form, whether it's failure at work or failure at home. Just last week I was really anxious. I had to replace a toilet and I was afraid that I was going to do it wrong and like water was going to leak all over the place and then I paid $8,000 for a plumber. Like this, this fear that we're not going to be able to do something, either right or to the societal expectations that that we put on ourselves.
Jeremy:Yeah, I think, I think honestly, I think deep, deep loneliness and lack of acknowledgement is huge for men, and part of it is that, that fear of failure. I feel like we're sort of in this role where we silently go through the day trying to provide for our families, trying to do it like not lose the job, try to do the things that keep the family functioning, that keep the bills paid, that keep the lights on and whatever thank you means to "guy X isn't said enough, isn't acknowledged enough. I feel like men are not supposed to feel so, they're not supposed to have their feelings acknowledged, to have the work they do acknowledged, and so it's just sort of a given that, oh yeah, you go to work, you come home, you don't say anything, you must be happy, you must be fine. When I think they're dying inside for some sort of acknowledgement for the work that they're doing, for the emotions they're carrying, the feelings that they can't talk about and that creates a deep loneliness, and they don't know how to reach out and ask. You know, dad didn't teach them how to ask for a hug. They don't know how to get what they need and I don't know that they even know that that's what it is. I think that there's just this deep loneliness that turns into resentment for everything and everyone around them.
Jeremy:And I think it's that. I think if it was somehow okay or somehow acknowledged more for men to be able to say this is what I feel, this is what I need, and if they could learn how to say that in a way that isn't met with well, but you didn't, and how come you don't and whatever, then I think that that would help with this crisis that I think is starting to come to the surface of men's mental health. That is not acknowledged enough. And you know I say that with the full acknowledgement of, like the privilege that men have, that particularly middle-aged white men have, particularly in North America. I get all that, but they're still pain, they're still suffering and it's not acknowledged enough. And I think at the heart of it is that loneliness and lack of acknowledgement for what still is a struggle, even though maybe it's not as big of a struggle on a relative scale as what other people may be experiencing.
Megan Devito:Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to remember which account it was, an Instagram account that I follow. The guy who does the AnxietyRx podcast talks a lot about how his theory is that all anxiety is separation anxiety, whether it's separation from someone else, separation from yourself or separation for whatever it is, and I was like I'm not sure about that. And then, it's funny, the more I think into it, I'm like oh it really, like I really do feel separated from this. So I think that when you say that loneliness and really feeling like I need someone, it does go back to that idea of I'm alone or I'm separate from this, like it's just me out here, like scrambling to try and stay above water.
Jeremy:So, yeah, you're expected to be the superhero to just magically make everything happen, and it's an impossible task, because pretty much everybody needs help at some point and guys are really, really bad at asking. I mean, how often is the joke made about why guys don't go to the doctor? They don't know how to ask for help, if you like crap. They don't even put together the oh, maybe I should go to the doctor until they're at a point where like, okay, now I need to go to the hospital because I didn't know how to ask for help, but now I just desperately need something.
Jeremy:We're not trained to be in touch with those feelings and to know what they are and to acknowledge them, and so we, I think, depend on validation from others, external sources, to tell us we're okay, to tell us we're doing a good job, we get the promotion, we get the raise, like it's a lot of it is professional acknowledgement, but there's nothing. I shouldn't say there's nothing. There's little at home, and I think that it's hard, even if there is, for men to acknowledge when it is there and how to really own it and feel it.
Megan Devito:Yeah, and we're really grasping it too. Different, I mean, for the exact same things on two very different sides. Right, like men are really, it sounds like, looking for this. I need this professional acknowledgement, like I am holding the family together by going to work and doing all of this, and on the other side, we have women who are like I am drowning over here in this house and I need some acknowledgement that like and why we can't see that that's happening on both sides, because I think it is hard. I mean, I think we're starting to see it. I think there is more talk about, like you know, balancing what we're doing, like how can I help make money and how can like, how can my husband help at home and how can we put those things together, because everybody's floundering, everyone is suffering and we're really just like we're all losing it.
Jeremy:I just want to say really quickly on that and, zach, I'll give you a chance, I promise but the idea that, like you said, it's not like we're in the fifties and men are going to work and women are staying home, we're all trying to do all of it now. So women are trying to now better adapt to the workplace and to find their place at the table and all the things, while men are going. I want to be a better dad, I want to break the cycle, I want to show up. Nobody ever showed me how. So we're both trying to figure out the other role and I don't know if that's good or bad, but what it is is. It creates a lot of friction on both sides where there's. We're still in our silos trying to figure out what is my role in both worlds.
Zach:Yeah, I, you know somebody. Somebody once told me that I used to wait tables in college and somebody said everyone should be a you know, a waiter waitress at some point in their lives, because you learn customer experience, the service and you know how to. You know you learn how to treat other people. I, honestly, you know the the, the times when my wife would go away and I had to manage the household and I had to work at the same time. They were never fun.
Zach:Experiences like doing it on your on your own is is never fun. However, it does teach you a really powerful lesson, like that appreciation of the other side. So, even if you're not trying to, you know bleed over into the other side and and you know well, everyone should want to be a better dad. But if you're not like trying to get over into like all of that stuff, at the very least like know what it is so that you can appreciate it, so that you can you know, listen or acknowledge that person. One of the best things that I've ever learned, and whenever I hear it back at me, is this this amazing thing that, like at home, like if I'm talking to my significant other and I hear them complaining about the house, about work, about anything. My first response to them is are we in problem solving mode or do you just need me to listen? Right, and it took me having to do the other side to understand that sometimes you just need to listen. Sometimes that needs to happen that way.
Zach:Now my own experience has been interesting because I did get divorced. Now I manage my own household and work full time job all the time. So that that's that just makes it all interesting. Now I'm on the other side of it, you know, letting somebody in. You know they come to my house and they're like can I help you? Can I do something? Like no, I got it, I got it, I got it. So now I'm having struggles on the other side of letting other people help me with things.
Megan Devito:Ooh, we could coach on that. Tell me all about why you have a problem with asking for help.
Megan Devito:They're going to like full circle, right? So what do you think? Like what do you guys wish that like, is there a question that, like I wish she would just ask me this? I wish she would just tell me this, something that it's like if they only knew this one thing, then I could like I could like feel a little less heavy or I could feel a little less anxious. There's something that men just wish that other men knew, or knew that women knew, on how to help them. Like I just wish they knew. Oh, I know there's so many things and there's so many different avenues that we could go with this. Whether we're talking about anxiety or depression or just little bits and pieces of that, from feeling burnout or overwhelmed or a failure or whatever that is. Is there something that's there - If we just knew this one thing.
Jeremy:A couple things come to mind. I don't know how groundbreaking they are or maybe they've been said a million times, but I'm thinking of my guy friends who will say how are you doing? My default is always I'm good. I use it as a check-in to literally in this moment I'm good, no matter how bad things are. But sometimes I'll have that friend that's like no shut up. How are you? What's going on?
Jeremy:Just to invite that space to be heard, to be acknowledged, to be able to vent whatever it is that's needed. I think that's key. If you're a guy listening to this, or even if you are a girl, whatever your role is, and you have a man in your life, give him the space to open up, invite the feelings to come out. Don't nag, but just get real. I think maybe in their relationship, dynamic, whatever that looks like for you, if you can find specific things occasionally and acknowledge what that person is doing for you, for the family, for their community, whatever the thing is to be seen, I think is huge for guys. We just want to be seen for what we're doing and not be taken for granted that we're going to be there to reach the thing on the high shelf or to get the tires rotated on the car or whatever the thing is, to just be acknowledged. Thank you for doing this for us. It means a lot. I see that you're working hard for us. That makes your day.
Megan Devito:Yeah, that's huge.
Zach:Yeah, I would just add one thing that I've seen a lot heard about and I experience it myself is, as a guy, I'm pretty deeply in tune with my emotions when I have a bad day or I'm upset or I'm dealing with something. I will, I will, I will still shut down a bit just so I can go process the things. My significant other, if I get asked are you okay, can you help me with this? Can you do this? There's a way to recognize when the other person just needs a little space you got to. The analogy that I use is if the stove is hot, there's an indicator on it that says it's hot. Don't go up and keep touching it to see if it's hot. Look at the indicator and don't touch it if it's still hot.
Zach:I think this goes the other way too. My girlfriend, if she's in a particular mindset, I've asked her, I've flat out asked her. I was like hey, I need you to give me a hug, I need you to give me a kiss, say hi. Then you can say leave me alone for a little bit, please. Just communicate that, because when you don't communicate it to the other person, I just need a couple of minutes, and here's why Just walk away. It leads to resentment, it leads to friction. It makes the other person think that they did something wrong From a relationship standpoint. But even with friends, like when Jeremy and I are talking, if there's something that's bothering me, I will shut down on him, and he's really good at asking me, are you?
Jeremy:okay.
Zach:Don't touch that.
Jeremy:Then I say, where's the record button? Let's get this on tape.
Megan Devito:This needs to be an episode.
Zach:It usually is.
Megan Devito:I love it. No, and I think that's so important, though, to I love the idea of a hot button because it would be so nice if we could just have I'm not okay across our forehead. Like hey, today, no, this is not a good day for me, whatever it is that's going on. And without having to get into even what's going on, I think you're right. Like shutting down is a big one, and for some people, when we don't know what's going on, especially if you're sensitive, especially if it's one of those things where you walk into a room and you instantly sponge up everybody else's feelings and we have to sort out is that them or is that me? Before we can even figure out what's going on, what do you feel?
Megan Devito:Like you personally? Like when you feel anxious, or if you feel depressed, however you feel, what is the thing that is like, oh, I know that. Like this is what I'm putting out there into the world. This would be my sign. Like mine is instantly, when I get really quiet, something is wrong. Either I'm exhausted, because I've talked to a lot of people during the day, or it's like, but when I'm quiet and shut down, that's different than like look, I've just had a really long day of a lot of talking. What's your sign?
Zach:I can tell you what mine is. If I'm around other people, I will start joking Like I'm getting really really, really sarcastic for my own health, because I know I need to turn the mood around. While I'm with those people and A I'm good at it I can usually get people laughing and if anyone else is in a foul mood, sometimes you can get a smile out of them. That's my sign. So like if I and Jeremy knows like I joke a lot, but if it steps up to a new level, you know that like I could snap at any moment. Yeah.
Megan Devito:That's a good one, though, because it's almost a defense mechanism, isn't? It Like I don't feel good, so you better laugh.
Zach:Yeah, and I choose that, though, because what I used to do was get really silent and really mean and, like you know, somebody would be like, hey, how was your day? And I'd give them an F You or you know something like that, so I'm just choosing the other way.
Jeremy:That's a good one. Yeah, I think in my case my wife would tell you that she sees it before I do, and it's a look on my face. It's the way I carry myself Like when the depression kicks in. It usually comes from some level of overwhelm. There's just too much going on. It's chaos on all fronts work, family, kids, finances. It's all just too much and it shuts me down. And for the longest time I mean for most of my life that meant days of I need to be in a dark room away from people and just ride this out. It's a flu. I've got to ride it out until it passes.
Jeremy:Now I know how to recognize it a little sooner, and I've learned to listen to her when she says you've got that, look, and to get my ass in the gym when that happens, because that's energy that needs to move. It's all just. You know you've heard it a million times the body keeps the score. When all that stuff is building up, your body says that's enough, I need a break, or I need this energy to do something other than exist in this swirling in my head or in my chest or whatever. And so my wife's gotten good at saying that and then saying go to the gym, get out of the house, go to, like, get out of here. Like you need time for you, cause I don't. That's the other thing guys do. We will push and push, and push and push until we break. I've done that my entire life and she doesn't want to see me do that anymore and I don't want to do that anymore. So I tried to just really listen to her, because she's a really good indicator. She's the button that says you know it's too hot right now. You know, go deal with this. So you know, being a good listener if you are lucky enough to have somebody who can see, it is really good.
Jeremy:But you know, and it's just so hard for guys but, like, just get really curious about your feelings, about why you are reacting the way you are. If you are grumpy and snapping at people, is it because your boss is a jerk or is it because you just haven't done anything for yourself since 1986? Like, you've got to make time for you. You know it's the champagne fountain. Everyone talks about the airbag on the plane, but the champagne fountain is a better analogy. Fill it up on the top so that there's still enough for everyone to celebrate when it gets to the bottom, like guys don't do that and you just have to put yourself first which I think a lot of us do in the form of work to get that acknowledgement. But there's a deeper level than you know. The nameplate on the desk.
Megan Devito:This is so good, like I, so good, I love this. And I think that you just like kind of bringing to my like my next question that I was thinking about, this idea of, first of all, I love the idea that as soon as you get depressed, you're like, go to the gym, because that, I mean for me in such a long period of anxiety, and people will say, what did you do? And I'm like I don't know, it was totally an accident. It was absolutely an accident. I just I started walking every afternoon because I just wanted to get away from the chaos in my house, and I was losing my mind, and I just wanted to go be by myself. I would get quiet and I'm like, fine, I'm going for a walk. And I noticed like, oh, I actually feel better after I take a walk and I can eat cookies. I mean, I can do all these things if I just walk farther. So so it started with that and it's been such a game changer for both of my boys.
Megan Devito:I have a 23 year old and a 17 year old, like two sons who are 23 and 17. And, as a former teacher and I teach high schoolers two days a week still, what do we have to do to start at the bottom, because I like the idea of filling your cup from the top, but I really feel when we look at this entire epidemic as a whole, this mental health epidemic, that we have to start at the bottom. Like we'ven got to start with the boys, we've got to start with the teenagers and really changing. So what do we need to do to help little boys? Like from a man's perspective, like from a mom's perspective, I'm like we need to love them and teach them their feelings. But what else? What do you guys wish that your dads would have done? Or what do you wish that men would have done to model for them? What do I tell my little baby nephews?
Zach:Yeah, well, I mean speaking from experience. I have a 12 year old daughter. She doesn't believe a thing I say. So there's a couple of things. So I think A having male role models who are able to be vulnerable and share their feelings and talk openly about those things is probably the number one thing, right? I mean, I don't think there's any way to tell them that they should do something. It's you got to show them.
Zach:And I know, you know, with some of my friends who do have sons, like I get into that mode when I'm around them a little bit and, not going to lie, it hurts a little bit because I get called a whole bunch of names by these kids and they're kind of joking and they're kind of not.
Zach:But you know, I don't care, I'm just gonna like you just got to show them that it's okay for that to happen.
Zach:And I think the other, you know, if there's nobody in your life that you know in your like immediate family or that that can show that to them, like with my daughter, right, I have right, I'm a dad, I'm a guy, I can't relate to her on things as a female.
Zach:So I go out and I try and find, you know like people like the owner of my gym, or you know somebody who does cosmetics or something like that, that I consider strong, powerful women, and I kind of put her around them with their knowledge or with the knowledge to them already of like, hey, I'm trying to tell her something along these lines. If you agree, awesome, could you help me? If you don't agree, don't worry about it, we won't, we won't talk about it. So I just really try and a model it myself for boys, but for my daughter I try and put her around other females that I feel have you know those, those things that I think she needs, and I would recommend the same thing for, you know, moms who have boys. Right, try and find men who have those things that you're trying to instill into your children and just put them around them. Just put them in the same same room, same environment, so that they can soak that all up.
Jeremy:Zach told my show them, don't tell them answers. So I'm gonna give you this one and it's don't tell them anything. Shut up and listen. Give that kid permission to feel right like that kid. That kid has been told to toughen up. That kid has been told shut up and wrote some dirt about, literally.
Jeremy:Okay, I love this story that I was. I was with some friends this was probably a year ago now. I have two daughters, young daughters that you know they're. They're amazing, love them.
Jeremy:I'm out with my friend and her son, who's about, I think, 10 at the time, and we're walking along in the woods and he falls down, scrapes his knee and just loses his mind, like just completely crying, and it took me a minute. But I, when that happened, there was this almost primal instinct of like geez, kid, you just fell down. Like, get up, what's the big deal? And simultaneously, simultaneously, was like if that was my daughter, I would give her all the love and oh, it's okay, like I'm sorry that happened. God, that sucks, you'll give her all that space. But there was something in me that said come on, young man, don't feel these feelings, get up and keep moving.
Jeremy:And it's just, it's so ingrained in us. It's so a part of who we are to not allow young boys to feel physical pain, emotional pain, whatever. Get up, robot, keep keep doing your job. So whatever you can do to just get out of the way, right like, be there, ask them how they're feeling again, get real with them. Don't accept 'fine', give them a space to talk about those feelings. Follow their lead. Our kids are much stronger, much more resilient, much smarter than we give them credit for. They know what they need. They don't know how to ask for it. So if you can guide them in learning how to ask for what they need, to share what they're feeling, just stop telling them what to do and start asking them what they need and they'll learn to tell you. So that would be. My advice is worry less about telling them or showing them anything, and hear what they have to say well. That was pretty much like the best ending ever, like 100, everything you just said.
Megan Devito:I'm like, wow, okay, so everything, yes, just do all of that. Yeah, exactly, it was like two mic drops and it was perfect no that was spot on.
Megan Devito:Yeah, I think you're so right. They do know what they need and we have this thought that, like I know better than you, or I'm going to tell you how it is and and you know, they have such interesting ideas. I've had so many conversations with my kids lately like what is actually going on at your school right now? Like what?! I mean? First of all, what does that word mean? But that also, what are you doing? Like what do you guys think about this stuff that's going on? And they are insightful, they're so cautious, they're so.
Megan Devito:I mean we get all of these misconceptions, I think, from what we hear about what's going on, but the kids are all right, but they're not. I mean, they're doing all right, they're doing the best that they can, but just being able to open that up for them and to let those changes happen from them saying, no, we trust you, but let's talk about how you're feeling about this situation. What do you want to do? What are you afraid of? And, yeah, it's really okay to be afraid of that thing. It's really okay to be nervous and to handle it. And you can do it like, we will figure out how to do it. It's okay to be uncomfortable and to work through those feelings, because that's how we grow, and to be mad, and sad, and all those things. And I really I love it that. Yeah, just listening, it's such a, it's such a lost I mean, I wouldn't even say a lost art just something that we say we're listening but we're not, we're not listening Parents it's.
Jeremy:It's a tough spot to be in because you want to protect your kid, you want to, you know, keep the boogeyman out of the bedroom and and all the scary stuff that's out there.
Jeremy:These kids don't have the decades of stories that we're walking around with and all the fears that we've built up about the thing that happened to us when we were eight. Right, let them figure it out. They are going to learn so much more from falling down and skinning their knee and crying about it, and being told it's okay to cry about it, than they are by you saying be careful, there's a stick there. Because all you're teaching them is I need mom. I need someone to tell me to watch out. But when I learned that if I don't pay attention and I fall on my ass, I better pay attention, right, like, let them give them space to bump into things and fall down and and learn these lessons on their own, because I I know from experience you end up expecting the Disney ending, the person to come in and save the day, they come and it's on you to clean that mess up on your lawn that somebody else left there yeah, such a good analogy.
Megan Devito:Okay, where can people find you, tell them what you do, what like where do we find you? What do we?
Jeremy:need. We have a lot of conversations, just like this website is that you do? Yeah, the fit mess. c om, not fitness, but fit mess, because all of this is very messy and trying to keep all the aspects of our lives fit as we can uh, it's a mess. So the fit mess dot com. That's where you find all the links, all the episodes and all you need to find about us amazing you guys.
Megan Devito:This is probably my favorite interview I've ever done.
Jeremy:Thank you I loved it. It's my, it's my favorite episode of your show. It's my favorite, thank you. Thank you so much.
Zach:We're a little biased, but no, this is really like.
Megan Devito:I think that we just need this perspective and we need to keep hearing it. You know, hearing something one time does not make changes, but we just need to keep hearing it, and hearing it, and hearing it. And I'm saying we got to get out there and help not just the men but the little boys that are going to turn into men in no time flat, and that is how we save the world so thank you thank you yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it.
Megan Devito:You guys have a great day, thank you, you too, you too. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel more relaxed, have more energy, more confidence and a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. Talk to you soon.