The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
Ever wondered how a $8.5 billion industry keeps millions of Americans lounging in style? Step into "The RTO Show Podcast" – where the mysterious world of Rent to Own furniture finally spills its secrets! Your host Pete Shau isn't just any industry veteran – he's spent 20 years in the trenches, collecting the kind of stories that'll make you laugh, gasp, and maybe even rethink everything you knew about that couch you're sitting on.
From wild customer tales to industry shake-ups that'll knock your rented socks off, Pete brings the seemingly mundane world of furniture financing to vibrant life. Warning: This isn't your typical business podcast – expect real talk, unexpected laughs, and "aha!" moments that'll have you looking at every lease agreement in a whole new light.
Whether you're an RTO pro who knows your depreciation schedules by heart, or you're just curious about how that fancy sectional ended up in your living room, Pete's got the inside scoop you never knew you needed. Tune in and discover why the furniture business is anything but boring!
The RTO Show "Let's talk Rent to Own"
LegCon 2025: How APRO Advocates for the RTO Industry in Washington
Have you ever wondered who's looking out for the rent-to-own industry in Washington DC? In this eye-opening conversation, host Pete Shau sits down with APRO CEO Charles Smitherman to pull back the curtain on LegCon, the annual legislative conference that forms the front line defense for the $12 billion rent-to-own industry.
Charles shares how this 31-year tradition continues to evolve, with attendance growing to 88 participants this year as industry professionals converge on Capitol Hill to educate lawmakers about the unique nature of rent-to-own transactions. You'll discover the meticulous planning that goes into organizing effective legislative visits, with teams carefully matched to relevant representatives and schedules optimized to prevent unnecessary treks across the massive Capitol campus (though many still clocked an impressive 16,000 steps!).
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when discussing the Fellows Program, an innovative initiative bringing first-time attendees into the advocacy fold. By sponsoring newcomers and pairing them with experienced advocates like industry veterans Larry Carrico and Michael Wall, APRO is cultivating the next generation of industry defenders. The results are impressive – half of last year's inaugural class returned independently this year.
Perhaps most compelling is the emphasis on storytelling as the cornerstone of effective advocacy. As Charles explains, while data matters, it's the personal narratives about providing "cold milk, not just refrigerators" and "good night's sleep, not just mattresses" that truly resonate with legislators. These stories highlight how rent-to-own serves communities and creates opportunities for both customers and employees.
Whether you're a seasoned RTO professional or just curious about how industries protect themselves from regulatory overreach, this episode offers rare insight into the proactive approach that keeps rent-to-own accessible for the one in thirty American families who rely on it. Ready to add your voice to this important conversation? Learn how you can participate in LegCon 2026 and help shape the future of an industry that touches millions of lives.
www.TheRTOshowPodcast.com
Pete@thertoshowpodcast.com
Facebook - The RTO Show
Instagram - the_rto_show
Linkedin - The RTO Show
Youtube - The RTO Show Podcast
Thank you, hello and welcome to the RTO Show. I'm your host, pete Hsiao. Today we're talking about something that the industry really needs, something the industry has done for a long time, but if you don't know about it, we wanted to bring it to you. So here's the deal the LegCon. I got Charles Smitherman here. He knows all about it. The LegCon, it's a legal conference here. He knows all about LegCon. It's a legal conference that goes on in Washington DC every single year and Charles Smitherman now leading as the CEO of APRO, pushing this forward. We've had some really good attendees, charles, the last couple of years, but we were in the 70s. Now we made it to what 88 is what I was reading. I got a bunch of notes up here. We actually did a really good job as far as getting some new people out here with some new programs that we have. But am I right in saying this is the 31st LegCon conference?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. I mean this has been going on for a long time. We took a couple of years off during COVID not necessarily by choice and so this is really the third of the I guess, the post-COVID era. We're growing it back steadily from that. So, yeah, like you said, 88 this year, that was up from, I believe, 78 last year. So we're trending in that right direction, trying to get to 100. I think that's our goal for next year. So we're we're trending in that right direction, trying to get to a hundred. Um, I think that's our our goal for uh, for next year. So, uh, we're going to try to do some things to to make sure it happens to triple digits.
Speaker 1:We're trying to make some triple digits. You know what? I definitely think we can do it. I wanted to do this because I think you know every year we do the a pro series on the RTO world and how everybody comes together and not only are there learning experiences, but it's a great shopping experience. You know, the guys come in, all the vendors are there, you have Trib as part of that and then, well, we try to.
Speaker 1:I'm on the membership committee. I said you know we got it. We've got to bring awareness to this, because this is just as important, if not more important, because at a certain point in time there could be something that happens. And this is where APRO really kind of shines. This is the legal point of where it goes. Hey, not only do we not have any issues right now, so this is probably the best time to present ourselves in front of everybody that we can. And if anybody doesn't know, the way the legal conference at LegCon works, is that somebody and I'm going to let you describe this a little bit better somebody at APRO kind of gets everybody together.
Speaker 1:So all the members that want to go, that are a part of APRO, get together and then somebody kind of mashes it all together, puts us in our right states, puts us with our right legislators, so that we can be in front of the right people and tell them all the benefits of what Rent to Own does, how we do it, how we affect the lives of the people that are our customers really the people that make this industry the best that it can be aside the employees and how we really don't have any issues right now. We're pretty much governed the right way, right? We don't really have any issues. Charles, how does that work? How does this whole salad of you got 88 people this year? They're coming from all over the US. Like, how do you get these people to be in the right place at the right time? All over again? There's a lot that goes into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a lot. It's a balancing act, it's a. It's a huge puzzle to put together. Huge puzzle to put together and, like you said, I mean you know this and RTO World are the two most important events for us of the calendar and they represent the two sides of our mission at APRO, that being to protect and safeguard the industry, which is what the advocacy portion does, and then to educate and to bring people together to allow those networking opportunities, which is what we do at RTO World. So it's a big event and I think we apply the appropriate focus, the resources that go into doing this.
Speaker 2:It starts now. We're already looking for hotels, trying to get things set up for next year and then trying to do things like this to just generate the raise, the level of awareness and the importance of what we do up here In terms of the process. We can accommodate 200 if we need to, and so what we do is we really look at what, what we get to a point. We look at who is registered, we look at where everyone lives, we look at where our dealers have, where they're headquartered, where that they have, what districts they have stores in, and we kind of take that huge puzzle and start breaking it down into pieces, and then we will set up teams. We typically like to do teams of anywhere from four or six, even upwards of seven or eight, and then we'll separate people into teams.
Speaker 2:So you're not on your own. If you haven't done this before, you don't feel comfortable going into these offices and doing this by yourself. Uh, you've got plenty of people there to uh, to help and support and to uh, uh to have those conversations. Um, but it's a, it's a puzzle we've got, fortunately I mean, uh, I brag about our staff all the time and we've got just some great minds, uh, that helped do this. Uh, uh, particularly Lisa Krabinoff too. Too, just as if you want someone to put a puzzle together, she's got the right, that analytical mindset and the patience and the I guess, that drive to be able to do it. So she's really been, she's taken this on for us for the past two years and I think if you speak to anyone that's been either of those two years, that can tell you. Well, we did this big thing at the end where we kind of talk about you know, we do a debrief dinner and one thing that came up this year I think you may have even brought it up was like what was your step count?
Speaker 1:You know that was part of what I was going to say because you know, I mean, and then there were so many people that put in so many steps, oh, my God, it was wild.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, if you've ever been to DC, the campus is huge, I mean, and you've got the Senate on the north side, you've got the House on the south side, so you've got 100 offices in the Senate, you've got 435 in the House, spread out over three buildings. There are tunnels that run underground to each of them and multi-floors, multi-sets of steps, stairs going up, and it's one of those. If you did not know what you were doing, or didn't do this right, and you would be in a meeting in the House and a meeting in the Senate, meeting in the House, meeting in the Senate you could easily get 30,000 steps in a day.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's going back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 2:Yes, what Lisa does is we usually we've been trying to get a hotel. We're going to try next year to get one over on the Senate side where we can walk straight to the Senate buildings. All teams can start their Senate meetings in the morning, walk straight to the Senate buildings, all teams can start their Senate meetings in the morning, then go out, walk across campus, go into the house meetings in the afternoon, and so, yeah, people had 10,000 steps. It could have been 20. It could have been 25.
Speaker 1:I think this year's winner was 16,000 steps, and I was looking at that and I said, man, what a possible way to really have, because part of what she does not only eliminating the double-step problem of having to go from one building to the next, to the back to the next is to schedule not only in one building, but with the people that matter for your group. And if anybody doesn't I'm going to just say this now Mike Bennett says that his guys were the Avengers. I don't know if we're naming all the other teams, but he said that they were the Avengers. They're walking around and so you have your group leaders. Some of these group leaders, like Michael Wall, Michael Bennett yourself was included in that. We have some other people that have done it a long time. I think what Trent Agin is one of three or four that have done it for so many years that we actually have to call it out and recognize that they are. They are championing this for decades and doing a great job.
Speaker 1:So she puts this, this, this hodgepodge, this, this, this crazy puzzle together. That kind of works seamlessly in this cog. So then we go see our legislative bodies. What happens when we finally had that meeting, right. So there's a breakdown and just to give you guys concept of what's going on, as we get together the night before we have kind of like a meetup and a talking and everybody gets to see each other and kind of meet their teams in the morning. Well, this time we had two speakers in the morning. So who were they? How did they matter in what's going on with Washington DC and Allegicon and why did they come up to speak to us?
Speaker 2:Well, we try to do something in the morning. Just to set the stage, last year we had a chief of staff from a congresswoman's office to kind of talk about how to do the meetings and why that they were important, and no matter who you were talking to, what your kind of goal was and how to present it. This year we were. You know, there were a few things kind of going on in DC and so we tried to and I think it's always good to hear from the horse's mouth, hear from the horse's mouth, so to speak, when you're there. And so we were fortunate to have a legislative aide from Speaker Johnson's office to come in and he really spent some time talking about the House priorities, particularly the tax bill that they seemed to be really focusing on. They had a big vote on that, or were supposed to that day. I think it got pushed, but eventually it did pass.
Speaker 2:We also had a lobbyist or the director of legal or legislative affairs from the National Retail Federation to come in and talk about tariffs and he came in. It was kind of a prescient moment because he kind of at that time this was at eight o'clock in the morning on Wednesday April 9th he said here's what's going to happen and there's going to be a Congo line going to the president saying, hey, we can't, this can't be maintained. I was with a group and about 12 o'clock someone's phone started beeping and they looked at it and saw the stock market had basically did this and I think it gained about 4,000 points. That just within a few minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was crazy because you've got so many people on one side saying one thing and other people saying the other, and the truth is this it's like playing the lotto you don't know who's going to win, you don't know how the turnout's going to be. You just got to kind of stick to what you know. Hopefully you pick the right side of everything, whether you pick certain stocks, you pick to buy, sell whatever it is and go from there. I mean, what else are you going to do? But yeah, so we have these two people that come, so one of them was from the Republicans inside, and then so the speaker that came in. Secondly, is he a lobbyist for the Democratic side?
Speaker 2:He actually works for the National Retail Federation.
Speaker 1:So it's not one way or the other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so similar association. Like us, he's doing what we do for advocating on retailers on behalf of retail stores and so that you know some more kind of idea or needs, concerns that they have, that we do, and so it was good to have him kind of come in and really talk, get in the weeds on the tariff issue for us, because that was the topic of the day. I think, yeah, everybody was listening. You know, I got the blinders on day.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, it's a lot. Everybody was listening. You know, I got the blinders on, like I need to pay attention to what's going on here. Those two really kind of set off in the morning, which was great because I think you're right, I got everybody into that legal mode Like, hey, I'm not at the White House yet, but you know what? This is what we're here for, this is the stuff that we want to hear about, because then as we go see our legislators, it gives us some talking points besides. Hey, we're rent to own and we're okay. It's one of those things like we are okay, but there are things that we always worry about and things that we should talk about and if anything happens, please let us know. It's part of what we do as watching everything and it's a great thing to have to come back to every single year and then have these new people a part of this as the time rolls on, and these new members and when I say new members, everybody I want you to understand just because you're a new member doesn't mean you're new to Rent to Own. I've seen some new members that came in that have been a Rent to Own for years, years, which was amazing to see, because I did Rent to Own for a while, while long, while before. I even knew that half of this existed, um, and then it took even a little bit longer to get apart, to be a part of it. But now that I am, I couldn't imagine not doing it. I couldn't imagine not being a part of it, because, you know, everybody wears a different shirt, but we're all doing the same thing, and so we've got to advocate together, as far as legally, to make sure that our industry is thriving and stays good. And then we'll go back to competing later on, right, and then we got, uh, I'm gonna tell you right now, we got the avengers on one side.
Speaker 1:And then I hear mr superman himself, michael wall, from aaron's uh, the director of operations. Right now, what is he? The director of? Uh of affairs, corporate affairs. And he, so he's there and, um, everybody, I, I, I, I can't, I can't imagine anybody not.
Speaker 1:I think everybody on his team, and even some people not on his team, were just like super happy that he was there, because not only did he uh help everybody in those, those moments where you know, hey, you might be new, don't worry about it. I will help you out and show you. But he did it with such flair and panache. It was like like this is his deal, this is like I think he just clocked in on a normal day. Hey, I'm at the white house, this is, you know, this is like what I do for lunch, you know. Like he just did it so well, um and, and kind of helped guide these people talking about new people, whether they've been in the business, not been in the business. There's a fellows program. Now, this is something that is. Is this new to what ledge con is doing? Because I don't remember hearing about it before.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is something we started last year and I give my case the credit for this because we're, you know, as a vendor member, this is to come to LegCon. We require sponsorship. It's, you know, just to kind of control the ratio and numbers, and it's an important and a good way to really support the industry through this important effort. And so we're talking to Mike but Jen truck and I about the sponsorship opportunities for LedgeCon, and Ashley is a champion for the industry, they always are a top line sponsor for, for everything.
Speaker 2:And Mike would kind of came in and said well, here's something I'd like to do. I'd like to bring in people that have never been before and you know they'll probably be our customers because we sell to pretty much everyone and then that we can expose them to it and get you know, have them trained, and then hopefully they come back or they get involved on the state level or in some way. And so we kind of took that idea and really ran with it. Ashley chipped in for a few last year I think they did five or seven, a lot. So we took that idea and that concept of okay, we're going to fund the hotel and some travel around DC. You've just got to get to Washington. Some travel around DC. You just got to get to Washington. Your qualifications are basically you got to be a first timer in the rent own industry, working full time for a store.
Speaker 1:That's not many boxes.
Speaker 2:That's not many boxes, and that's the thing. And so it's really it's, it's a, it's available out there. You just have to have the support of your supervisor to sign off for you to do it. So we had a few state associations that chipped in and said, okay, we'll put in for a scholarship or two here or fellowship, and so we had 10 last year and that was a great start.
Speaker 2:I think really the idea of the program is to bring new people in. So you've got people who have never been to DC before. I think you hit on it. It's an eye-opening experience If you're in your store every day, if you're kind of new to the industry, or even if you've been in the industry but you haven't gotten this exposure to a RTO world or a meeting of the minds or a legislative conference. You don't really understand, I think. Or a legislative conference, you don't really understand, I think, conceptually how big and important this industry is and what this program does is I think it's an enabler for that it provides a pathway to be able to one to go to DC see what we do up there. But second, too, we have a lot and you mentioned this we've got a lot of people that have been doing this for a long time. We've got a couple of guys that have been Shannon Strong and Larry Carrico, I think are tied at 27.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine that they missed four. So that's incredible, um, but we've got a lot of guys, uh, that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 plus years, uh, and that's a lot of experience. I mean, you mentioned Michael, michael. I like walking around with Michael because he knows which which stairways to take and how to get which uh entrance to go in when the security line's too long. Um, uh, so he's a great person to have.
Speaker 2:But we've got all these guys that have been doing this for a long time that they know how to talk to the legislators, they know how to talk to the aides, they know how to promote the industry and kind of it's just I know it's been beneficial for me to be sitting down to go to a meeting with Larry, beneficial for me to be sitting down to go to a meeting with Larry, to go to a meeting with Michael, with these experienced guys, and hear how they characterize and talk about RTO, how they talk about the transaction, and I believe Larry, he talked about this at the debrief meeting that night. But he goes in and tells people we provide cold milk, we provide a good night's sleep, Just that total reframing of we're not. We don't just do rent refrigerators, we give you cold milk, we don't rent a mattress, we give you a good night's sleep to get you energized, refreshed, to be able to go back and do what we do, and that that kind of reframing. That's a. That's huge. I mean just from our perspective, from hearing we learn from each other and we've got so much knowledge, and just institutional knowledge, with this group of guys and women that have been doing this for a long time, and so to bring that back together, the fellowship program is a way to introduce people who haven't done this before to this institutional knowledge that we have with this experience. And so someone can go in and they can go into a meeting with a Michael Bennett or a Michael Wall or Shannon Strunk or Larry Carrico or Trent Agin and hear them talk about it. That then will carry over for the future, and so this is a sustainability project because you know, people retire, they sell their businesses.
Speaker 2:There's a limit on how many more times that a lot of our experienced guys will be coming, and we've got to grow. Our next generation will be coming and we've got to grow our next generation. So when we're up there, 40 years from now, they can tell the story of. I went around with Larry Carrico and heard him tell the story. I went around with David David and heard him tell the story this way, and so that's what really what we're trying to do with this fellowship program, and I think it's just a, it's a great way to accomplish a number of goals. And so I'll tell you this we had 10 fellows last year, we had 15 this year, so we grew it. I'm really hoping we're gonna grow to 20 next year. Um, but of the 10 we had last year and this kind of shows you kind of the I think we've got traction with this we had five that came back, so half of our class 20, 20. And back in 25, if we can replicate even a portion of that going forward.
Speaker 2:That's what helps us grow from 78 to 88 to 100. And that's what keeps us at 100 people going back each year to do this, because it's important. I mean, this is what we're here for, here for, and this is what just the core part of keeping the industry safe and advocating for it and really telling the good things about rent to own to the people that make the laws and the regulations that control it.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you one thing if it keeps on going this way, lisa's going to need an assistant pretty soon, and the fellowship program is a great way because it sounds almost like an apprenticeship program. If I wanted to be somebody in an industry like, let's say, plumbing, I've got to stand behind somebody who's done it for a while. I've got to learn. It's easy to say, these are the book ways, how to do it. You connect the pipe, you bend it over, that's the way it is and then you go out in the real world and you're going to have a master plumber go. Yeah, hold on, there's a way to do this. We don't want the house to flood. So, going out with these experienced people who have decades, decades of timeframe, and not only that, their day-to-day is not our day-to-day, our day-to-day is not their day-to-day. So they take these, not only the years that they've been the ledge come, but they take their day-to-day, which are experiences that we might not have or their experiences that we don't know about, and we get to all pull that together into a conversation and I have definitely seen some lights go off. Um, being there two years, I I've seen people that last year were kind of very timid on the inside. They said stuff, but kind of sat back a little bit to becoming hey, let me tell you about my industry. And it's so different to hear them talk that way, because last year they were all like, oh my God, I'm in some legislator's office, I'm where CNN stands when they have the camera, and now we're here, actually on the other side of it, really doing the work that needs to get done to represent the industry in a certain way. And so they start coming out of that shell and that fellowship program of being able to be with those guys that have done it for years and years and put it in a certain way and say things a certain way.
Speaker 1:It's it goes twofold it's not only being able to you know, experience them and them being able to guide you, but also, you know, every once in a while you've got to expect that there's going to be a legislator to say something that you know, ask you a question, going to put it in a different way. I'm going to put this in a different light and tell you you know, how does this really blatantly affect my constituents in a good way, really blatantly affect my constituents in a good way? I hear that there's this or I hear that there's that, and not only having somebody there with a little experience can say well, this is why this is what's going on. You know, with always one, there comes another. This is where it comes from and this is how it goes. And there's, you know, the lifetime reinstatement and all this stuff. So, you know, letting them know it's. You're going to hear what you hear on certain social medias, you know TikTok, whatever. But to sit down in front of the people that actually do it every day, let me explain to you how it works. Like you said, being able to frame it in that other way and say you know, it's not just the product we sell us, the experience at home that you have with your family that makes a difference. And this is, this is what we do on a day-to-day basis. This is how we, you know, this is how we became the industry that we've become. And as, as I've been able to grow in the industry, I hear and see all these things from like, let's say, a pro started ledge calm 31 years ago. There's a lot of things that are older than that, right, and you've got tire industry. That's older than that. You've got the furniture industry that's older than that. You've got a lot of things that are old, but we're not that old. And we have the people that you say 31 years and somebody like Carrico has been there for 27 of them. Well, he's almost a resource, but started this thing in the beginning and we still have the ability to really kind of look at, follow, talk to and experience this with the pioneers that have really helped get us to where we are.
Speaker 1:And I love the fellowship program. I love the fellows program. I think it's a great idea. I was talking to a couple of people and to hear that it was their first time. And you know, here I am. I'm thinking I'm a new kid on the block. You know there's about four new kids on the block. We're going to start our group Now. It was more. And when I was like you've really never been. No, I've never been. And the program really reaches into those small areas of rent to own and say, hey, you want to come out here, you want to try this out, you want to be a part of this. I love the idea. Mike, if you're listening, we appreciate it. We think you did a great job here, but we are going to take it a run.
Speaker 1:So the amount of people when they come in and you have these multi, you know multi-decade type people how does so lisa tries to divide them up with. You know, we're trying to get the the most experience, with a couple of non-experienced in there so they can kind of follow everybody around. And then, um, at the end of the day, you talked about the debrief. So we're there, we're talking to them, we get through the day, we can finally let our hair down. Oh my God, I talked to this person, I saw this person in the hallway and that because I think this year we spotted two legislators that are always on TV. We managed to see them. So then we get to the debrief dinner. How important is that? I mean, what's the guidance behind this debrief dinner and how does it get everybody back to dinner? What is the point of?
Speaker 2:that. So you know it's the bookend for the conference. We do the reception the night before, we'll do the breakfast and that's kind of the send-off and then you know it's really we always try to find somewhere unique. You know, this year, last year we were at the Daughters of American Revolution, which was a really cool old. You know all-on-all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all that was awesome.
Speaker 2:That was awesome Ellipse. This year we were out at Top of the Town, which is an event function space in Arlington, but it has the complete panoramic view of the entire city, all the monuments. You can see everything from the windows and the rooftop open bar that they've got up there. So it's just an incredible thing, one to kind of step back. You've had a long day. It's kind of relax and to network and to talk to everyone about their day. Kind of relax and to network and to talk to everyone about their day.
Speaker 2:We started doing something last year that was kind of an open mic and we continued it this year. Where it was, we did like prompts, where, okay, I advocate for this industry, because I come to LegCon, because and to allow really everyone to kind of tell their story. You know, that's the fundamental basic thing of all of this, of all of advocacy If you're doing it right, it's storytelling and that's why I like bringing a fellow in that can tell their story. I was in one meeting with one of our fellows and she told her story about how that she became a guy that got a job in rent to own and then became a regional manager. And you know I'm sitting there listening to it, I'm looking around, I'm like. I'm like I'm not crying, you're crying and you know it. Just that's what's powerful and that's what's memorable for this. We give you all this data. Here's our industry health. We rent-own. One out of every 30 families uses the rent-own transaction. You know it's a $12 billion industry. We throw all this stuff out. We've got papers, we have leave-behinds, we do all that stuff. But it's that storytelling during those meetings. That is what really resonates and what's memorable.
Speaker 2:And then this is kind of our opportunity to do that a bit of that storytelling with each other and to share that Like here's why I come to LedgeCon. I mean it's a you know we're at, it's an ask. It's an ask. I mean I recognize that we're asking you to take time out of your schedule midweek to come to Washington DC to do this, to go through that expense, give up your time away all together. That's the, that's what the tie in.
Speaker 2:And so we started doing the, this kind of open mic, and we want to try to get everyone at least a representative from each team that could kind of come up and share a little bit something that happened during the day, that was memorable or impactful or something that you know of real significance and you know, and it's, it can be, it's intended to be, I mean it's, you know it's it can be emotional, I mean, you know, just listening to it, but it, I think the takeaway, if you sit through to me, that's my favorite.
Speaker 2:I mean all of this is great. That's the, that's the highlight of the whole thing is hearing everyone's story of their day and then really even deeper for their story of why they come and advocate for the industry. And here's some really powerful things with that. And I think that just in terms of understanding how big this industry is and how important it is and how it touches so many lives, and just from the consumers to the employees, to the, to our vendor, suppliers, to owners, all just across the whole spectrum, that's a, it's the capstone for the event.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, you know talking about different things and and I want to I want to kind of encapsulate some of the reasons why we go. Because obviously, if nobody understands why we go Because obviously if nobody understands why we go, it's fun to say it's a lot harder to get them to understand that this is why. So a couple of things that came up last year was you know, there was talk that a little bit of the CFPB and kind of maybe wanting to look to, you know, put RTO in a different area, to look to put RTO in a different area, but we're not credit-based. So we have to have the advocacy there to say let me re-educate some of the people who really don't know about rent-to-own and say this is not a credit transaction and the laws of the CFPB and how they regulate it will drastically affect this $11, $12 billion industry and there's a lot of people that are affected by that, not only the customers that use us every day, but the employees and the owners that we have. I mean, your $12 billion isn't small and I know every time we talk about, oh, we're sending somebody this or we're spending that, we're talking about numbers that people will never see in their lifetime and this is something that's shared with every single store owner, every single employee, every single person that drives a truck to owning the business. It affects all of us. So in those types of situations it's super important. Right now there's a bill in New York and I think we're kind of jockeying back and forth, but in that state it's important to that state. And now the New York Rental Dealers Association, with Jeff Smith as president I know yourself is gone and it seems like we're getting some headway in that. Hopefully it works out for the betterment of everything.
Speaker 1:But you know, these things happen all the time where something's going on in the world. So I should say, in our four walls of the United States of America, we have to be there April has to be there to kind of do it, and if you think it doesn't come up, it does there. April has to be there to kind of do it, and if you think it doesn't come up, it does so. Things like that and things like New York and things like the CFPB and how they relate to our transactions, maybe putting us in a different tax situation, well, it does affect us. So if you think that we just go up there and say hi, it's not really that, but it's great to say, hey, we are doing well, we're highly regulated, things are working out and there's these small things too. If we can keep an eye out for them, please let us know so that we can advocate on our behalf in those areas and in those arenas. Just to kind of say how is New York going? Are we past?
Speaker 2:this or we still got a little bit to go. New York, that's a great example, all right, of why this is important, of why this is important? Because for years, apro and the industry advocated for a federal bill to classify the rent-to-owner transaction as a lease, pure and simple. It's lease, not credit sale. Along with that, while that effort went on for really the better part of I think, 25, 30 years, until it was kind of abandoned prior to Dodd-Frank in the early mid-2000s, in parallel to that was the state laws being passed, and so we've got 46 state statutes that were passed, really beginning. New York's a great example 1986. I believe the New York statute was passed. It was amended in 2009. And so we've got lots of amendments.
Speaker 2:If there's an issue with the transaction, with the disclosures, with the timings, any of these obligations, it gets addressed in the statute. And that is what we go to DC to say leave us alone. We're regulated on the state level and it works well. And if we have an issue, a local issue, we can work with that legislator on addressing what the requirements are on the statute, rather than coming in with kind of this heavy-handed approach of the CFPB being the federal regulator. I mean, we're regulated by the FTC on that federal level. That works. That's the way it has been for decades, and so that's kind of the argument on the CFPB is we're not credit and therefore we don't need to be characterized as credit. On the CFPB is we're not credit and therefore we don't need to be characterized as credit.
Speaker 2:So what's happened in New York is really what we're trying to prevent with all of these legislative days. What we're trying to prevent in DC is, if we're not up there telling our story, someone's going to tell it for us, and that's kind of what's happened in New York. You've got consumer groups that have told our story for us. They've lumped us in with five other relatively new fintech modern products that have only existed for really the better part of the past five, seven, ten years, not a rent-to-own transaction that's been around, for I think Aaron's is celebrating their 70th anniversary.
Speaker 2:You know April's been around since 1980. This is established. We've got state laws that can back that up, and so when we were in New York, there were several lobbying teams working. I was up there with Jeff and the New York Rental Doers Association back at the beginning of February and that was our message of hey, we passed this law in 1986. We worked with you to amend it in 2009. If there's a problem with it, let's talk, but this is not. This is you're completely eviscerating it and I don't think anybody will know how this thing will work if you pass this new one that disregards 40, almost 40 years of history and precedent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Of stable regulation. That's kind of it.
Speaker 2:And then you've also got the other issue too is we're picking our poison in a lot of ways. We don't want to be regulated at the federal level and there are a lot of reasons we don't. And I know, Ed I think he was on your podcast recently he went through a lot of some of those reasons we don't. But it know, ed, I think he was on your podcast recently he went through a lot of some of those reasons we don't. But it's a hydra. You know, cfpb has been kneecapped right now with some of the things going on with the new administration. But that just means there are 50 other opportunities for that cause to be taken up. And I think we saw that during the first Trump administration. We're going to see it in the second Trump administration.
Speaker 2:New York, in addition to the bill we're fighting up there, has just introduced a it's kind of a mini CFPB bill that adds the element of abusive to the UDAP enforcement of the Attorney General's office. So you've got kind of an expansion of what they can do, which is what the CFPB was doing. We'll see that in other states that expertise and all of those personnel that work for the CFPB aren't going to quit their jobs, they're going to find somewhere to go. And so that means that we've got to fight even harder on these state levels. And so that's what's going on in New York. That bill, we had a bill introduced last March. It was pending in both houses. Basically, the clock ran out when they adjourned at the beginning of June. We're in the same situation this year. Identical bills were introduced in both houses. There They've been really focused on their budget. So that's really taken the majority of the past two and a half months plus of their legislative time. And so I think things are about to get very busy over the course of the next six weeks.
Speaker 2:And so New York I'm going back up there with Jeff and the team and Michael while here in a couple of weeks to continue those conversations. And we've been having those conversations since literally ongoing consistently since this time last year conversations. And we've been having those conversations since literally ongoing consistently since this time last year. And so we've got to tell our story and why that we are the odd man out of this. And whenever you've got these arguments of okay, we've got a statute, these other ones don't, we're not credit. These other ones are. That resonates a lot better and it's a lot easier too whenever you've established those relationships and you become that resource, which is what really? A lot of what. The strategy in DC and the other legislative days that we're doing it's preemptive. Dc and the other legislative days that we're doing it's preemptive, so we're not having to react and really mobilize which is what's happening in New York right now making new?
Speaker 1:Now, I mean in a layman's term sort of way, do we get lumped in because we take regular payments, just like, you know, a credit card, but not necessarily the same way, and they kind of just scooped it all in one salad and they're going to regulate this and they don't really understand what's going on. Or were we literally cherry picked out because to them it seems like a credit transaction, even though it's been defined as not?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's either of those those. I think in New York we were lumped in by consumer groups that were you've got products that aren't regulated. They're really where we were in the 80s and we chose to be regulated. Okay, here's how we want to be regulated like this We'll agree to these disclosures. We'll agree to a rental agreement that says this We'll agree to doing these things during the terms of the lease and post-lease. We chose that and we pushed it, and so this is how we wanted to be regulated.
Speaker 2:In exchange for not being characterized as a credit transaction and being subject to all these other regulations. In exchange for not being characterized as a credit transaction and being subject to all these other regulations. What's happening there is you've got new products that aren't. They're round pegs trying to be fit, or square pegs fitting around holes, however you want to characterize it, but they don't have that. You've got to build things like earned wage access, which is like payday, but it's not exactly payday loans. You've got a buy now, pay later, which didn't exist five years ago, 10 years ago. That's gotten very big.
Speaker 1:So you know but they don't have a regulatory scheme They've got.
Speaker 2:They're trying to be fit in. Okay, well, this looks like a loan, so we're going to throw you under the lending credit provisions or regulations here, and so they're kind of where. We were just kind of trying to figure out where they belong. This is a sledgehammer of like OK, we're going to, we're going to do all of this without really addressing some of these other things on it as well. Oh yeah, I guess we you know this concern. We still don't like those guys either, so we're going to throw them into it.
Speaker 2:I mean literally the, the, the bill is being the code name or the, the moniker I guess it's been given for the one in New York is in in one Elsa in loan shark act. Okay, great, end it. I mean that's that sounds. I think we would all agree that no one should be out alone sharking and doing that, but're not up there saying that like, yeah, sure, that sounds, rent done, sounds like any of these other things. I mean that's kind of the perception. That is the constant battle that we are fighting and it may seem like, okay, nothing's going on in DC, but we are setting. If we're not harvesting, we're planting seeds and it is a cycle and we've got to be continuously on this, at all times, persistently, consistently. It is not something that you can just do reactionary, and hope to have that be an effective strategy and hope to be successful with it.
Speaker 1:Well, Charles, I got a question Are we going to see you on some kind of C-SPAN or something like?
Speaker 2:that? Are you going to be in front of a?
Speaker 1:congressional hearing. You know the CEO of APRO, we have you here and you're going to be sitting in front of a couple of senators and they're going to be like.
Speaker 2:let me tell you, I would do it. That's kind of like being in court. I mean, I was a litigator for the beginning of my career and you never want to be in court in that situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, right, avoid at all costs. So there's, you know, the importance is there, the tradition is there, the experience and the fellows is there and we're bringing all this together and it's great to hear that out of COVID we're hitting some great numbers. We're expanding year after year. If you guys want to be a part of the fellow program, please let us know. Reach out to April. It's rtohqorg and you can figure out how to do the fellows program from there. At the time next year we will have a link to a from our website at the rto show podcastcom, so that you can find it anywhere you can. But one last question I wanted to ask is in your opinion, what was something different that happened this year that stood out, something that you could say you know what? Uh, every year there's always that one thing that happens, or two things that happens. What's something that happened with charles or with the group or whatever that you say this was unique to this year?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's always different, no matter what time you go up there. It's just different. You know, I would say and I mean just even just going back to the fellow thing, I mean that being up there, we do that, like I said, we do a recognition. At the end of them, we recognize the people that have been there. For, you know, here's our five plus year category, here's our 10 plus years, our 15, we, and we have a lot of people, uh, we, we actually started, uh they used to do this a long time ago but we brought it back last year where if you've been there for five plus years, you get a certain pin, like a lapel pin. They're nice, big, shiny, that you know we started doing that to kind of recognize people.
Speaker 2:But there's an element of kind of when you go in and you do the same meetings with the same the messaging is you get kind of in a routine and rhythm with that messaging and so really kind of being in the in the room and some of the meetings with the fellows and and particularly with the ones you know it's intimidating to go up there. If you've never done this, I mean we try to do everything, we try we do a training program. We do a pre a web, a pre-conference webinar. We do the training at breakfast. We really try to put people with teams of experienced people, but it's still an intimidating thing to go through up to one of those buildings. You're standing beside the Capitol, you go in through security and you're in the hallways and you're passing these people. You see on CNN or Fox or C-SPAN or whatever you know. You're seeing these people, you're seeing the podiums, you're seeing all this stuff. I mean it's an intimidating atmosphere, particularly if you haven't done it much.
Speaker 2:And so, really, kind of being in the room with some of these fellows that were not intimidated for whatever reason, to speak and to tell, and like you know kind of where, that thing of what I said with storytelling, and be able to tell that story, that's what resonates when you're meeting with you know congressmen, congresswomen that are representing your district, and to be able to kind of go and say, well, I'm from this small town or I'm from here and I used to went to this high school and I, you know, know these people and, uh, this is how I got into rent to own, uh, and we service the people in this area of this town, that that, that that kind of thing is powerful and that resonates.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, there was and I joked about that I literally was tearing up listening to, uh, to, to one of these uh and uh, just, uh, just incredible uh story to hear that and that's not, you know, this is a unique atmosphere and opportunity to share that we don't. You know, this isn't kind of a uh, something we would do at RTO world or at a state association meeting. It's a unique situation, scenario, specific thing to be able to kind of tell that. And so, yeah, that was probably the highlight. I think I'll remember some of these. Just that happened this year for a long time and for me it's a learning experience for me. I've been doing this for a while, not only with APRO but with other associations, doing legislative days and doing these type of meetings and you know, I learn something new every time and ways to polish the approach and new ideas to share.
Speaker 1:I love that policy approach. That's a great way to put it, because it does deep polishing. I'll tell you, one of the most unique things that I noticed this time around was number one, was the stories. The stories did hit home, and to hear that you have people that become customers, that become employees, that become advocates for the industry, that's a win. That's a win all the way around.
Speaker 1:But one of the other things that stuck out to me that was really unique this year was there was probably three to four meetings that we had where we came in and we started talking. We said, listen, there really isn't any pressing issue right now, but we wanted to. And they just do what? Like I just got through with like 45 minutes of getting somebody just chewing on my ear about what's going on here. Let's fix this. And oh my God, what are you doing? Because we mentioned I mean you mentioned it before it's a new administration. We're going to do it this way as opposed to that way. We're going to try new things.
Speaker 1:And so they've had those people like hey, wait a minute, we're upsetting the apple cart. I'm going to tell you why this is good or bad for me, or whatever, whatever. And then we come in and they get 15 minutes of wait. A minute Wait, you're not yelling at me, you're not telling me that we're you know whatever. We're having a civil conversation about an industry that I might not know that much about, and it was great to just how it went along. I was so shocked of how appreciative they were for us to be preemptive, versus, on the other side of it, to say, hey, oh, my God, we have this big problem, we need your help, we need you to do this, we need you to do that. And it was like, oh, wait a minute, I can sit here and actually listen to you what you have to say without putting on a defense and I can't answer that. I can't say this. And we had some really good conversations. I think we had some eye-opening conversations and for me, that was a really unique part of LedgeCon doing this, making sure that I can say to the people that are around me I've done what I can for this industry and I'm going to keep on doing it as much as I humanly can.
Speaker 1:So, on my second year, guys, I have not experienced by any means, but hopefully one day, besides all the steps that I have, I will be coaching and mentoring maybe somebody else in the far future, but we'll see how that goes. Charles, I'm so glad that you got to be here. I wish Edwin would have been here this year. He did, he did, he was on the podcast. He's always so full of knowledge. I love talking to Ed. He's so good at it. But you know, ledgecon 2025 was an absolute success 88 people Fellows is growing. We want to break the three digit mark and that means we need you to hit us up so April of next year.
Speaker 2:We've got beds for hotels right now, so I think we may have that lined up. That's it.
Speaker 1:That's it. We're putting a marker on this timestamp. So if you guys want to be a part of it, keep on watching, following us and following what's going on. Again, go to RTOHQ next year. You can even start it. I think we start off at the end of January or February when we start getting the registrations together. That's a great time for you to figure out what's going on and if you can make it and I promise you, if you tell your boss, hey, listen, I'm advocating so that we can keep this open I guarantee you they're going to give you a couple of days off.
Speaker 1:Not only that Washington DC is so full of history, I will tell you this. I did stay a little bit longer. I went for LegCon, I stayed for DC, I got to see the Constitution, I got to see the Bill of Rights. I mean, there's so much going on. There's all the Smithsonian's where you can see all of our culture, all of our history. There's so much. There's Arlington National Cemetery and if you ever want to do something crazy, if you ever get a group of people together or whatever, the top of the town was amazing. Those views, charles will tell you they were great, they were good in the daytime. They were even better at night, when everything was lit up and you've got the backgrounds. You've got the Washington Monument Absolutely gorgeous.
Speaker 1:Well, if you guys have any questions, always reach out to me. It's Pete at the RTOshowpodcastcom. Always feel free to hit us in DMs on Facebook, instagram, linkedin and on YouTube. Now make sure you subscribe, and this is what we do, guys. This is how we make the industry work. Charles Smitherman, from April, we are so happy that you got to be here and I'm going to tell you guys, as always, get your collections low, thanks. Sales high, thank you.
