Ben Glass first met Mindy when she worked for Foster Web Marketing.
And today another really great interview is going to be fun because I'm catching up with an old friend of mine, mindy Weinstein. And I first met Mindy over a decade ago when she was working with my friend, Tom Foster at Foster Web Marketing here in Fairfax. She then left there, left Tom's business over a decade ago, but we knew each other for a couple of years and did events and taught lawyers how to market stuff.
And now I'm catching up to her and in the interim she's become famous in her space, particularly in the digital marketing space. She's the author of a cool book called the Power of Scarcity Leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions, and she speaks a bunch. And then I found out she's living in Arizona. So maybe next year at the summit, when we're bringing it to Arizona, we can convince Mindy to come over and share some ideas with us.
In this episode we catch up a bit on our respective journeys through the marketing world. Mindy has worked for some very big companies, but now runs her own business, as do many who have appeared on this podcast.
Get a glimpse into Mindy's world and understand how she has seamlessly melded past methods with contemporary advancements to create an impact in the digital era. Don't miss out on this electrifying episode!
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
Ben Glass first met Mindy when she worked for Foster Web Marketing.
And today another really great interview is going to be fun because I'm catching up with an old friend of mine, mindy Weinstein. And I first met Mindy over a decade ago when she was working with my friend, Tom Foster at Foster Web Marketing here in Fairfax. She then left there, left Tom's business over a decade ago, but we knew each other for a couple of years and did events and taught lawyers how to market stuff.
And now I'm catching up to her and in the interim she's become famous in her space, particularly in the digital marketing space. She's the author of a cool book called the Power of Scarcity Leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions, and she speaks a bunch. And then I found out she's living in Arizona. So maybe next year at the summit, when we're bringing it to Arizona, we can convince Mindy to come over and share some ideas with us.
In this episode we catch up a bit on our respective journeys through the marketing world. Mindy has worked for some very big companies, but now runs her own business, as do many who have appeared on this podcast.
Get a glimpse into Mindy's world and understand how she has seamlessly melded past methods with contemporary advancements to create an impact in the digital era. Don't miss out on this electrifying episode!
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
Tell me what you think like today so we're recording this in the last part of 2023, like what's Mindy's superpower? What are you really good at? You like doing? It's a sort of maybe it's a type of a typical client that comes into a market mind shift that you go yeah, this is really going to be great because I'm doing what I was born to do. What is that?
Speaker 2:It's interesting because it's well tied back to what I'm my company. But I am really good at teaching people how to do things and I've realized that throughout my life, that I'm good at sharing my knowledge. But ensuring that you now can take this knowledge and it's in bite-sized pieces and you can apply it, that's really my superpower and I've realized that. So I don't call myself a speaker, I call myself a teacher, because when I get in front of crowds, you're going to walk away and you're going to know how to do something.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and great legal marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, this is Ben. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast where each episode I get to interview people inside and outside the legal profession who are making a ding in the world. And today another really great interview is going to be fun because I'm catching up with an old friend of mine, mindy Weinstein. And I first met Mindy over a decade ago when she was working with my friend, tom Foster at Foster Web Marketing here in Fairfax. She then left there, left Tom's business over a decade ago, but we knew each other for a couple of years and did events and taught lawyers how to market stuff. And now I'm catching up to her and in the interim she's become famous in her space, particularly in the digital marketing space.
Speaker 1:She's the author of a cool book called the Power of Scarcity Leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions, and she speaks a bunch. And then I found out she's living in Arizona. So maybe next year at the summit, when we're bringing it to Arizona, we can convince Mindy to come over and share some ideas with us. So, my friend, how are you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm doing great. It is so fun to see you. It's been over a decade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has. Yeah, but neither one of us has changed.
Speaker 2:We're just smarter and wiser, that's all.
Speaker 1:We've had more opportunities. We've had Alex Hormozzi, we've had more reps now to get better at whatever craft we have, and you've done a really a lot of neat things. So I'd really like to first catch up and I don't know if there was a before foster web marketing or not like where you came from to get to Tom's. I'm curious about that and then talk to us a little bit about where you have gone, because I think a lot of people would be interested in this entrepreneurial journey. I tell 18 year olds, 17 year olds, you don't need to have your whole life figured out before you go to school. If you're going to go to college, if you're going to do that, and you've done a lot of neat things, so let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, great, all right. Well, I will go way back to before, foster web marketing. So my background is marketing and so that is what I studied in school. When I graduated, that was my degree and something that I was practicing for a long time, but more in the traditional marketing sense, because when I graduated, which well over two decades ago, there was no digital marketing degree. I even have had students ask me so did you major in that? Like, that wasn't a thing, the internet was still, and the internet existed I mean not that old, but it didn't exist.
Speaker 2:But marketing was always something I loved, because I loved the idea of how do you communicate with people and how do you motivate people, and I was always interested in words. I mean, that was even when I was a little girl. I had a typewriter, I used to type stories, and so words were really my interest, and so I went into the marketing side of things and then, in 2007, switched to digital marketing. But, as you know, when you first met me, my really my foot into the door. The digital marketing world was in content, and so I remember back then that was still a growing area where realizing that you could actually have a career in adding content to websites and you know, getting the word out there, and so that's how I transitioned.
Speaker 2:And then I ended up at Foster Red Marketing oh my goodness, I don't remember what year it was. It was a long time ago. It was fantastic. But I was there quite a few years, and then we met around that time too, and so since I left there, I ended up working for a very technical digital marketing company, and when I say technical, I mean I learned so much about programming that I did not know before is another language out there? And then I ended up stepping out on my own in 2016. And during that time period around 2016, I also started teaching. So I was teaching marketing classes at a university out here in Arizona, and then they brought me on full time, but I kept my marketing business because I felt like to be a good marketing professor. I couldn't tell them all back in the day when I was doing marketing. It was like this. I needed to still be practicing, and so that's what led me to wearing that now. I mean, obviously there's so many more details, but that's the high level view of how we're sitting here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to give some of the younger lawyers who listened to this some context, so great legal marketing started in 2005. And really what we were doing at that point was teaching lawyers how to advertise in the yellow pages better, and most of our market wasn't on TV and there weren't a lot of other choices. And then Tom Foster, who's yours in mind, good friend, was one of the early players in bringing web development to lawyers. Yes, there was some website work pre the beginning of foster web marketing, but not much and not much to go devoted specifically to lawyers. And yes, back in the day, air quotes all it took was content and lots of it pretty much to dominate because the space was not very competitive. In fact, literally back then there weren't such things and, I believe, as pay per click marketing. There was ads that got posted and you could get paid if you put an ad on your website and got clicked on all sorts of things.
Speaker 1:But today it's an Uber competitive space and it's one that I think a lot of lawyers in particular still struggle with, because people like you working with you call today what do you call it? An Uber digital company or something like, where they're whole technical right, right. They have the time and the space to focus on. Gee, how do we get whatever it is we're talking about to show up in front of somebody's eyes? So, when you I'm curious now when you went out on your own and the company is the same company today it's called Market Mindshift You're the CEO. Yes, who was your market? Who was your ideal client in 2016?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm just going to be just real with you. So when I quit, so I ended up leaving the job as a great company, but I just was traveling all the time and my kids were really young at the time and that's back when they used to cry when I would leave. I don't think they would care now because they're teenagers. I think they want me to leave more often.
Speaker 2:But I, when I first left, I was thinking well, you know, I'll just have a few clients and just be a consultant and just work with whoever I want. I even took up tennis, which lasted a whole like two weeks a month. I didn't even last very long, because what happened at the time and I'm going to get into the answer here I was already speaking at a lot of digital marketing conferences, so a lot of people knew me, and so when I ended up walking or going out on my own, I started having people reach out to me and like, hey, would you work with us? And so at that time I mean I was working with all different types of companies and different sizes, and when my criteria was at that time was if I liked the product or service that they were offering and I liked their team because in the beginning it was just me.
Speaker 2:I'm like, then I'll do it and. But I did learn early on that you don't work with everybody and the first time I had a fire client that was horrible, you know. But you just start to learn what works and what doesn't work. And so in the beginning it was with all types of companies, which fast forward to now, even though I've been teaching full time. I mean, we're at now at have 15 people working at the MarketMindShift and, yeah, we have now narrowed in a lot on our focus. But in the beginning it was very much just what projects seemed interesting to me and those are the ones I was willing to work with. But, like I said, it was a lot of just getting out there and speaking and sharing your knowledge. I mean, that's what really built my business.
Speaker 1:That's a very typical path of an entrepreneur in America is often described by Michael Gerber right Like I can make great cakes, Gee, I can go to the Costco, make a bakery shop and start my own business. And so now I'm curious about when you made that shift to working for yourself, having your own company. Did you feel, in looking back, that you had the adequate business skills to do this? Because obviously you are a subject matter expert. Most lawyers who listen to this podcast are subject matter experts in the law. They often find challenges Mindy when they go to start a law firm Right.
Speaker 1:They're going in naked. They really don't know what they're doing.
Speaker 2:So I, you know, at that time I did have at least the education background, because I had gotten my MBA at that point in time, so I had a good understanding. And then because in the different roles I'd had there were management roles, so that definitely helped. However, the hardest part when you step out on your own is, of course, that wondering like well, I always have that next client, well, I'd be able to retain these clients. And so for me, I right away started just partnering and meeting just as many people as I could that were actually in similar industries as me, in marketing industries that maybe just didn't do what I did, and so I started working closely with them and building my processes and they would send me their clients, and so it really was helpful.
Speaker 2:But that subject matter expert was huge. I mean that was a huge thing. But I mean I'm not going to say I didn't make mistakes along the way. You learn as you go. I mean you learn pretty quickly. I need a really good accountant, I need to go lawyer. You learn all these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you have a PhD as well?
Speaker 2:I do, so I have so interesting. So I had gotten my MBA a long time ago, and then when I got into the academic world, so when I started teaching full time, I immediately started working on my PhD and actually take back, I worked on it even a little bit before. So my PhD, though, it's in general psychology, and that seems to surprise a lot of people. So it's general psychology with an emphasis in technology, and so I went that route because I already had a marketing degree. I had the MBA, and I thought, well, what is the one piece that really transcends really everything, and especially in marketing, and that's psychology. We have to understand people.
Speaker 2:And so I decided that I was going to get a PhD in psychology, and I am so glad I did. And keep in mind it's general psychology. So I am not holding therapy sessions. You don't want me to. I'm not a practitioner, I'm not a clinical psychologist. It means that I've done the research and just really dove right in, and so it's been fascinating. I mean, right away I was bringing things into my business, and so it's just been a really good journey, and I finished that quite a few years ago, but it was before COVID that I was done with my PhD.
Speaker 1:One of the people that you have become acquainted with you were telling me before we went live is Robert Chaldini, who is sort of the father of sort of if you want to call it, the science of persuasion and marketing, which would seem to fit right in with your background in psychology. So he's really famous, and when I saw that he had written a blurb for your book, the Power of Scarcity, I'm like wow, that's cool. How did that happen? So tell us a little bit about getting someone who's really well known and well respected in the field to look at your work before it was published and then to write a blurb for you.
Speaker 2:I know. So he is amazing, very nice, obviously intelligent guy, and so I had heard him speak at a digital marketing conference that I was at, and I was blown away and bought his book, read his book. I mean, this is way back when and I realized, though, that he was a professor at ASU so Arizona State University, where I'm at and I kind of filed that away, kept that in mind, and then, when I was going through my PhD journey, I was like at the point where I had some ideas for my dissertation, and I thought you know what, I wonder if I just reached out to him, and I think the way that I reached out to him was offering you know, can you consult me? I even offered like I don't know where your consulting fees are, and he was so nice. He just said why don't we have coffee?
Speaker 2:And so we met up for coffee, had an amazing discussion, and he gave me so many great ideas, and so he was really pivotal just in even sending me down the path that I went, because if you've read his book Influence, you know also that scarcity is one of the principles of influence, and we'll get to later, hopefully, of why I chose scarcity, but he was very helpful for me, like with the process. So once I wrote the book, he was the one I think I was probably the most nervous about to have read it and he was like I hope he likes it. And he gave me just a glowing email back and did a very nice testimonial for the book. But that's how that happened and so now, yeah, he's in Arizona, so it's very helpful. He's a great, definitely a great person to know there's a life principle there.
Speaker 1:So if anyone who is younger who is listening to this podcast and that is those of us who have been successful in some endeavor in business, sports, whatever we actually do like, we're not that unapproachable we do like talking to people, with this caveat, so we like to talk to people who are going and doing things. So when you showed up as a serious student of his work, as a serious student of psychology, as a serious student of marketing, like people like Robert Chaldini and others, we like talking to the next generation of people who are truly interested. So never be afraid. Like to at least reach out to somebody that you think is unapproachable, and you can't never get past a gatekeeper, because we do want to talk to people.
Speaker 2:And I think that's so important, what you just said to you. For me it's hard, it's hard for all of us to reach out and put yourself out there, but I always thought what's the worst that's going to happen Either they're just going to ignore you, your email, your call, or it might work out, and so, again, you just don't really have anything to lose. And what you just said people like to help, and that's the other thing on that note that I've been trying to really just keep as part of my mentality and my ethic within work is that be mindful when someone reaches out to me and they're for a little bit past or they're catching up and they want some advice too, of giving back, because it really should be that kind of environment People give to us and we should give back to.
Speaker 1:Thank you there. You know, I know that you're on LinkedIn and so much of the LinkedIn traffic is all about hey, Mindy, I've got some to sell you. I'm still 10 minutes of your time to have coffee with you some BS like that. Rather than and I think a lot of young lawyers would find it not as hard as they think to be able to reach out to some of these guys and gals who are much more experienced either in you know the law, trial tactics and things like that, or marketing or business building, and just say, hey, like I would love to just get a few minutes of your time, I've got some specific problem, or could you look at this and help me noodle through it? And you're going to find that they again the highly successful.
Speaker 1:We're happy, we're happy to do this, but just don't show up like with no notepad and no curious questions, because that upsets us. Tell me what you think like today so we're recording this in the last part of 2023, like what's Mindy's superpower? What are you really good at? You like doing? It's a sort of maybe it's a type of a typical client that comes into a market mind shift that you go. Yeah, this is really going to be great because I'm doing what I was born to do. What is that?
Speaker 2:It's interesting because it's well tied back to what I'm my company. But I am really good at teaching people how to do things and I've realized that throughout my life, that I'm good at sharing my knowledge. But ensuring that you now can take this knowledge and it's in bite-sized pieces and you can apply it, that's really my superpower and I've realized that. So I don't call myself a speaker, I call myself a teacher, because when I get in front of crowds you're going to walk away and you're going to know how to do something. And so even within my business it's been interesting because I've had some clients where I worked with their marketing intern who ended up starting his own company because I worked with him so closely and just kept sharing my knowledge, kept sharing my knowledge, and now we're really good friends and colleagues, and so that to me, that's where my heart's at hands down.
Speaker 1:When you have been asked to speak, say in the last 12 months. What is it that the various platforms are asking you to come on and either teach or comment on?
Speaker 2:So I mean, really this last year I have spoken a lot, of course, on my book subject matter, which is it's a marketing psychology book, and that's been a huge thing. But because I'm also known from the digital marketing space, I bring that to you. But where we're at and it goes back to what you said earlier marketing, especially online, used to just be about oh, you have to have a lot of content and then you're pretty good. Well, now it's how do you actually resonate with that person? How do you make that connection? Because it's very loud, it's very crowded, we all get a gazillion.
Speaker 2:There's my scientific word for you gazillion messages on your phone, and so many of them are trying to let you know that this is the last offer or the last opportunity. How do you really stand out? And so what I really focus on in my business too, like with the services that we offer, and then also when I'm teaching is that it's all about the words that we use. We all have something unique about our businesses and what we're doing, but so many businesses that I see don't communicate that well, and so they're now pumping out blog posts. They're just putting out social media because that's what they were told to do. They're doing paid ads. They don't really know, because they haven't figured out that it's still about the human connection, the words. I hear about AI all the time. I use AI, but we're still human beings, and so knowing what words are going to trigger action and knowing that you are giving a service that is helping people, that's the key.
Speaker 1:So let's figure out what makes a difference and how to communicate that Ever since the beginning of great legal marketing, I've said to the lawyers who are trial lawyers that it's the same thing In a trial you're trying to convince six or seven or 12 jurors. Now you don't usually have two-way communication, like you talk and then you watch reactions, but you're trying to convince people to do something, to see you as leader in the courtroom and then to go and do something to vote for your client. And it's the same here. I mean, we're trying to convince human beings that they're in the right place Number one if indeed it's a type of case that you handle, so you're in the right place.
Speaker 1:You have experience and subject matter expertise and you are a good team to work with, because so many customer experiences with lawyers even really good lawyers is a bad customer experience, and that often starts with the website and the digital properties. I tell even my team here I'm like we got to be on the site like every day, checking to make sure that what we think is supposed to be happening is actually still happening. And you have to play prospect to see if our messaging is congruent. If you click on this button and then this landing page shows up that it's congruent with the button you just pushed on, which is like way before anything technical, digital right.
Speaker 1:It is all the psychology of a good customer experience and I still think for most businesses there are huge, still huge opportunities there, because most people spend so much time, energy and money. Mindy, speaking for lawyers now on, well, let's up the bidding price, let's, you know, let's get a different creative out there and they don't think about what you talk about, which is all right, but we got a human being on a board or a phone on the other side who's having an experience, and it may be their fifth experience they've had in the last 15 minutes, because you're not the first website they went to and how can you stand out, just even like procedurally and just to make the process easy. So you're absolutely right. Hey guys, this is Ben, if you like what you've been hearing on this podcast, not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts. You should know that my son, brian, and I have built a tribe of like-minded lawyers who are living lives of their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice.
Speaker 1:We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full-time practicing attorneys. Check us out at greatlabelmarketingcom. So tell me and I do want to come around to talk about the book here in a second, but tell me about Market Minds. I think you said you had 15 or 18 under roof. Is that right?
Speaker 2:So that's how many people? Yes, are 15 people on my team now, and so we have, yeah, and we've been in business. All this has grown while I was teaching full time, because I didn't quit teaching until this last spring semester or so.
Speaker 1:That's your next book, by the way. How I did it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Get it up with the crack it on, I don't know, and a lot of caffeine, I think that's how I did it.
Speaker 2:But so we work, so we do like a spectrum of things that really are. A whole thing is taken, of course, from the prospect of getting them there whether that's through search engine optimization, paid online media, all of those things to actually sending them the right messages. But one of the things we start out with clients is you know, we all hear about what is, we know what makes you different. But I look at this from a scarcity perspective and I know we're going to talk about that in a second, but just as a little glimpse I define scarcity and this is all the psychology of scarcity as any type of unavailability or restriction which exists with every business, especially with the legal industry, because you're only going to work with so many clients, like it's only possible to work with so many clients, and so one of the things, for example, like I would say to someone is okay, well, you don't just say like, oh, I'm selective, okay, well, let's get a dig a little bit deeper. Or instead of saying we have a limited amount of clients we can take right now, let's quantify it.
Speaker 2:You know it actually in your marketing materials we can take on five clients right now, or we have a spot for one client, those kind of things, because that's a trigger point for people too, and it's a trigger in a good way, because showing that you are valuable with what you offer, you're in demand. Plus it pushes that decision making process. So, going back to what we do, it's starting with what can we do to really highlight what makes you different and to highlight that natural scarcity that exists, and then bring that all the way through, whether, like I said, it's through your optimization on your website, through that page, through the email, through your social media, and so it just brings all the way. And I even just I do a lot of training, so I train teams on how to do this too, so how to get their marketing teams to think this way and to just change the way that they're awarding their messages.
Speaker 1:Who's your ideal business that's reaching out to you next week after Thanksgiving to see if market and mind shift is right for them? Who do you like to see walking through the door?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have, I mean, two main industries that we work within, but then I have a lot on the training side. That's a little bit different. So for our services that we provide, we work with a lot of universities and so that's a huge part of our space and so a lot of that comes from my background and all that. And then we also work heavy in the e-commerce space. So it's really universities and e-commerce are our biggest industries for services. However, on the training side, that side is a little bit different. So when I say training, I teach businesses. So, whether it's their marketing interns or it's their sales team or it's their marketing team, marketing team and house on how do you determine the real scarcity, how do you figure out what your audience is going to care about, how do you get that message out there and how do you do it ethically and so that I work with all kinds of groups, and so with that, it usually is just if it's a good fit for me and a good fit for them.
Speaker 1:Then, like you're doing this one-on-one, you to business I mean not there may be more than one person on a training, but you to a single business, versus doing the events stuff that we've done.
Speaker 2:Right, yep, so not events, just it's me to groups, yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. So now let's talk about the book scarcity of all of the different sort of psychological triggers in marketing. With your general psychology PhD, how did you arrive at wanting to write about scarcity?
Speaker 2:Right, and I feel like that. It's really funny and I'm going to answer your question. When I was telling people as I was working on the book, and they'd say what's your book about? And I'd say scarcity, it was always funny the look on their face like what? Why scarcity? Because it has such a negative connotation, because you know, a lot of people are teaching about abundance and I'm over here teaching about scarcity the opposite thing. But I'm going to explain why.
Speaker 2:So when I was in all these classes working on my PhD I mean right away, I mean when I started I knew that I wanted to study and do all of my research on what motivates us, but that's broad. So what motivates us? But then, as I was starting to dig in and reading study after study and all the findings, it occurred to me that scarcity was seemingly the most powerful influence factor and it's because it's primal. And so there have actually been studies done, neurological studies of the brain which is hard to argue with, because you can actually see the activity, you can see the lightening up that show that when we are faced with scarcity, we skip the normal process that we would in the decision making process or the normal steps in the decision making process. And these participants of the study weren't necessarily in situations where they weren't going to get food or water and telling them they were like in this horrible, it was basically here's an auction simulation like eBay, or here's a situation where there's a sale 20% off today only, versus next week or no expiration date. So we know that when faced with scarcity, the brain goes into quick decision mode. The other thing we know through neurological scans, the same thing, studying the brain is that when faced with scarcity, the part of the brain has to do with valuing something, so the value we would place on something lights up immediately. So what do we know from that? We know that the brain reacts, has a physiological reaction, meaning something is urgent, so decision has to be made and something is valuable or desirable. And so that really, those two neurological studies are really pushing me down the whole path.
Speaker 2:And then, the more I dug into it, I realized that, you know, our ancestors were In a situation where they had to survive and things were scarce, and our brain still reacts the same way today. But doesn't mean you can't overcome it. I'm gonna tell you that. So, people, as we get into the holiday shopping or even next year into the latest sales. You don't have to succumb to all of it, we just have to know how the brain works. We also know through scarcity that there's that feeling of missing out. We don't want to miss out because of something is scarce.
Speaker 2:If you remember, I talked about scarcity as any type of restriction. So we've seen through studies that there is even one. I'll give you a funny example. It was done so you've all heard of the beer goggle effect, right? So there was a study done on that and they actually had that a different Finding of why do people pair off and leave the bars, and it actually had to do more with scarcity than anything else. As people were leaving and leaving All of a sudden you're like, okay, well, I gotta find someone to, and so it's just very interesting and that's what got me down that whole path. But then I realized from academic standpoint it's not always Bad. I mean, if you have something that is truly helpful to someone, why not actually help them by making the decision process a little faster? Why not create that sense of urgency? But it has to be done in an ethical way. Actually have a whole chapter in my book about what not to do. But it's so important. And one thing, I'll take a breath here in a second. There's one more thing I want to say, so from the academic standpoint.
Speaker 2:I did all this research on scarcity. That's what my study was on, and then, when covid head, of course, watching it play out like this is everything that I've been researching when I embarked on my book. It was really interesting because I did a lot of case studies. So I interviewed the former VP of global marketing for McDonald's so he'd been there for 40 years. I interviewed the founder and CEO of one and her flowers, and they own Harry and David. I even interviewed Kevin Harrington, who was one of the original sharks on Shark Tank. And what was interesting is I have this academic understanding of scarcity and how we react and how our brains, but then talking to these companies that were using it in fun ways things to create excitement, ways to build community that there were actually all these other things resulting from scarcity that businesses were doing that we just don't think about, and so it's really fascinating, but just so many ways to go about it. But I'll take a breath. I get really excited talking about so is FOMO.
Speaker 1:is fear of missing out aligned with this, or is it like a subset of scarcity?
Speaker 2:It's part of it. So in the psychology world and we don't refer to it as FOMO, I mean, that's really the mainstream way it's actually loss aversion, and so that is a really, that's a real thing, and that also goes back to just how our brains have developed. You know from our early ancestors is that to survive, you have to be a verse to loss, and there's actually been studies done that show that our reaction to loss Is stronger than our reaction to gaining something, and so that's a big thing. And if you're kind of thinking about that and it seems still a little intangible, think about the last time that you waited to get into the brand new restaurant. You put your name on the wait list well, you didn't want to miss out on what everyone else was talking about. Or you saw something on Amazon and it said only five, or left well, you purchased it. Really cause a phone, whether you realized it or not. And so that happens to us, and so that is a really big part of it.
Speaker 1:I always wondered if at Amazon you can comment or not that was false in the ethics chapter or not right. Only four left like how could this be? This is the everything. There's more than four of whatever. So you know, one of the strategies we've talked for two decades is book writing, but you actually run a real book and put a ton of time into it. Talk to us a little bit about that process. Did you have a team of researchers? Did you do all? Because you've mentioned now several times you talked about looking at lots of studies. Is this literally pouring tens of thousands of hours into this Peace?
Speaker 2:So the thing about my books again.
Speaker 2:Mcgraw Hill is the publisher of my book and I have, and it's actually funny talk about the research, because I can tell you how many sources I went through, because I just sent a spreadsheet to someone who's working on the same process, and so you can just use mine as a template to see how I set it up. I had over 300 references in it, and so I will tell you that that research, though, I started when I was in my PhD program, so I had already started on that route. My PhD or my dissertation was on scarcity, so I did all the research myself. I could have hired researchers, but it was so fascinating and that's what I think it's really important as a side note, if you're going to write a book, you know, write something that you are passionate about and that you have a not, you want to learn more, you want to learn more. You also want to show your knowledge on that, and so I was very fascinated by the whole topic, and so I did my own research studies to. So I mean, that's talked about, but being able to dig into the other research was great Now, as far as the process goes, so it was really interesting. So when just to give you a little bit of what happened, so I had was done with my PhD and already finished all that.
Speaker 2:And then, when COVID hit, that's an end on me. I thought I'm sitting on all this material that I bet would be very helpful, and the business community, because, again, ethically, there's businesses that can look at this and say I'm just not messaging things right. And, by the way, just before anyone I should. Just this beginning I'm not talking about like sending out text messages that there's your last opportunity or sending an email like that, because I actually know those don't work that well, and so I'm talking about the real scarcity. And so when I was watching everything with COVID, I also knew from all my psychology studies that our brains, from this now this point forward, are going to be different, because we Always draw we not always we draw on our experiences. We don't always realize it, but if we make even just a little decision, we're going to go this way, not that way. Our brain is processing past experiences. Will we all face to get scarcity? So I knew it was going to just be an even bigger thing.
Speaker 2:And there was all this academic research that wasn't out there in the business world, and so I ended up contacting a literary agent. So that's really the route to go if you're going to go with it a big publisher or the traditional publishing route and told her my idea and then we put together a proposal. I think the proposal was the hardest part that we did. It was really hard. And then she sent it out to publishers and I remember her comment to me her name's Cindy.
Speaker 2:She said you know, it'll be a couple of weeks before we hear anything from anybody. Well, it was 24 hours and we heard from McGraw Hill, the editor over there, and she wanted a conversation and she was just as excited about it as I was. And so I'm like that's we're going with McGraw Hill. And then I went through the whole process of writing the book from there and so that took by the time I got the book contract, the book getting out there I mean it was well over a year because you have all the steps, all the editing, and then it has to get published.
Speaker 1:And then, what doors has the book opened, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's been interesting. So when the book came out, so it came out in November 2022. So just in time for Black Friday. So I remember Monday, so I was already. So it's one of those things. I was already on the speaking circuit, so that was already done. But I definitely have now been able to have more of a voice in talking about consumer behavior and psychology, and so I've been interviewed by Washington Post multiple times. I've been on a ton of TV and podcasts and all these different things.
Speaker 1:So it's definitely open doors that way where I'm able to get these great interviews with the book as the credential as we're sitting here at the end of 2023 and thinking about what 2024 and beyond will bring in, I know you have a senior in high school who will be going off, maybe to Japan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I told you earlier.
Speaker 1:Are you working on anything? What excites you? I guess about the next stage of your own personal journey, Because builders are always we're always a little bit restless. Ok, you build this cool thing, it works, All right, what's next? We don't give ourselves very much time, I think, to look back with gratitude on our own hard work and what we built. But what do you find exciting? Are you working on anything new, big?
Speaker 2:Yeah, ok. So I'm glad you asked that and you're so right, because I always tell myself, ok, I did this and I'm just going to just take a breather, and then I don't OK, what's next. Because it's fun, it's exciting, and so I'm actually working on a, because I have a framework behind the whole idea, with scarcity and how it works, and the acronym I use is rare. I mean because rare is scarcity too, of real scarcity. Audience needs the right type of scarcity and ethical execution, and so I've been just building out a four week training that I do that's specifically on that. So I've been doing trainings with teams, but specifically on that framework. So I thought you know, that's the most digestible way to understand this, and so we are rolling that out this year. So it'll be virtual or in person, all those things, but that's the next thing. So I can't, even though I stopped teaching full time, I can't get the teacher part out of me.
Speaker 1:No, but now I mean you can probably leverage it to not everything. Is not you in front of a classroom, right? And by the way, let me ask you, because people ask me so these kiddos who are coming out of university with marketing degrees, how good are they? Because you and I know, like there's marketing and then there's what we've been talking about persuasion and influence and things like that. And the small, the small firm market, I think, is oftentimes disappointed if they get a marketing grad right, because you kind of have to reteach them actual influence. What's your view, having spent years now about the product? Really, that's coming out of a university with a marketing major.
Speaker 2:OK, so all right. So now I'm going to tell you this second huge thing I'm working on this year that I wasn't.
Speaker 2:So it goes with what you're saying. Ok, so it's so fascinating that you actually asked me that question. So here's the thing Because I was a marketing professor, so I mean this is coming from a marketing professor for seven years great program. But I realized that my students would come out and not all of them had, like you said. They had the head knowledge of a lot of the lessons and the theories and all that, but when it came down to they got hired, and usually they were hired by a small business or a mid-market company that maybe had a very small marketing team, that they had to be trained, that they didn't have the actual like I can do this, you know there's other professions, you walk out and you know how to do the whole procedure, and so I had some classes that I actually reworked a bit, so it was very hands-on, so they walked out with experience using tools. But that's been a huge thing Because I've also had a lot of companies, when I was teaching, asked me like, well, is there something I can do to train them in the meantime?
Speaker 2:And so there is a disconnect there and it is unfortunate and it's just being the practitioner part of marketing, and so that's actually something that I've been working on with my team. We're 90% through the training program. So it's funny, you bring it up and it's basically a I'm called upskilling. So it's either training your yeah, your new hire, who's an entry-level marketing and specifically marketing, or you want to change careers, and it's everything I mean again because I'm a teacher, so it's the very hands-on how to do it. Here's the tools, here's the standard operating procedures, here's your weekly. You can jump into this webinar because we're talking about conversion rate optimization this week. So, yes, there's a huge disconnect in that. But the marketing, since they do well, it's usually just that first you know job or two. They got to kind of get their bearings.
Speaker 1:So, but that's a whole nother business. I know Certainly a significant line, if not a whole nother business, that could be built and sold, actually, and very good for you, because I think there's a significant, if not a huge, need for that and because I haven't gone looking. I don't know what your competition is in that space, but that sounds awesome and so. But I'm not surprised, knowing you, that you have thought about these things, that you are restless, that even though you have accomplished a lot, it's like okay, but what's tomorrow? That's really great, mindy. Look, it's been wonderful to catch up with you. If people want to follow you I know you're all over LinkedIn. I don't know about your other social media, how big or important you feel that is Feel free to talk about that. And then the company is Market Mindshift, which I assume is marketmindshiftcom.
Speaker 1:I think I went both.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that's it. You can go there. My website, if you want to get my book, is MindyWinesteincom, so that's really easy. And I also have my socials on both. But I am, I mean, I'm on all the socials, but LinkedIn, that's my jam. I'm on LinkedIn a lot and so you've seen me on there. I'm always posting on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, look, thank you so much for carving out some time. As I said, we're coming to Arizona, so I want to have another discussion with you at some point to see if we can get you on our stage and keep you close to home.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that Next.
Speaker 1:October, early in October, so great. So again, thanks so much for the time today. It's been awesome to catch up with you.
Speaker 2:OK, thank you for having me.
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