Join The Renegade Lawyers Podcast as we dive into the world of building sustainable law firms with special guest Ed Alexander. Discover how to create a business that thrives independently of the lawyer, with insights on structuring, scaling, and preparing for the unexpected. Tune in for a conversation filled with valuable takeaways for any legal professional aiming to make their mark and secure their firm's future. Don't miss this enlightening episode!
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
Join The Renegade Lawyers Podcast as we dive into the world of building sustainable law firms with special guest Ed Alexander. Discover how to create a business that thrives independently of the lawyer, with insights on structuring, scaling, and preparing for the unexpected. Tune in for a conversation filled with valuable takeaways for any legal professional aiming to make their mark and secure their firm's future. Don't miss this enlightening episode!
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
a good marketing system, a consistent marketing system, and you know I mean it can't just be I'm sitting here and I get referrals. It's got to be an active marketing system where, if you're not advertising, you're maintaining relationships. So I always push the print newsletter big time because that's a great resource. Most people are doing e-newsletters, and sporadically. The beauty of the print newsletter is it's going to be monthly. It's a good marketing system that operates pretty much systematized. The lawyer can be involved because to a big extent we are a big portion of the good will of the law practice. But if we can get it as systematized as possible, it's having good systems. One firm that sold really the multiplier for that firm went up because their written systems were so good and they had a very narrow niche.
Speaker 2:According to the Renegade Lawyer podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 3:Everyone. This is Ben. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer podcast where every episode I get to interview interesting people who are making a ding in the world. Some are illegal, some are not. Today I've got a great guest, ed Alexander.
Speaker 3:Ed is an attorney, he is in our. He and his wife, faith, are a part of our mastermind program here at Great Legal Marketing and Ed has carved out a very interesting niche in the law. As you may expect at Great Legal Marketing, we do talk in our mastermind groups about marketing and hiring people and which web vendor to use and all that stuff, but inevitably many of our conversations roll back around to what are we building here? Can we build a business that is really separate from the lawyer as lawyer? Can these firms be sold? How do we bring in partners? How do we prepare for sometimes catastrophic loss of a partner? And Ed is one of the guys that has his hand raised and when Ed speaks down there at the end of the table, everybody listens.
Speaker 3:I think the last meeting in January you probably picked up a couple of clients from that, just because his work, a lot of Ed's work, is around first educating lawyers and then helping them. I guess business structure-wise primarily build something that can live beyond the lawyer, provides protection, as I said, in case of catastrophic loss, eliminates future disputes. Because you're thinking about things proactively at the beginning, and so I thought, since many of the listeners to the podcast are building firms where they're trying to scale firms and reduce, if not eliminate, the chaos that often comes with scaling, I thought getting you on the phone or on the podcast it would be wonderful. So thanks for carving out some time from Orlando.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, ben. I appreciate it, looking forward to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your journey in the law and how you became interested in really this niche. There are many things that we can do in the law, but you have carved out something special and I think it's like a big blue ocean, because lawyers traditionally in the solo and small firm space particularly, have not been wise I don't think to creating businesses that are structurally sound. So talk to us a little bit about your journey.
Speaker 1:Well, I went to law school expecting to be a business lawyer day one, so because I was in business prior to doing that. So when I came out I went in house for a little while with the firm. I actually went to law school at night and worked while I was going as a product marketing manager in a technology firm. So I actually went in house with that technology firm and they put me in the patent area and I went from doing deals to my mind was melting so I decided it was time to find another job and my wife's family was all down here in Florida. So basically that's how we got down to Florida. So the next job was here in Florida and worked out great.
Speaker 1:I did corporate transactional work really from day one. It was a small firm so, as you know, in small firms you kind of help out wherever you needed. So I would do some litigation, which was great experience for a corporate transactional lawyer to kind of see all the things that can go wrong. And after a while that firm kind of cratered and did a couple of iterations but I ended up on my own and so primarily on my own for the past 15 years. But before that I had a little stint on my own before I went in with a large firm and then you know, as I was doing this work, it's really interesting how deals come to you and if you keep your eyes open you kind of see trends going on.
Speaker 1:And I had, you know, a few law firms coming and you know we dealt with some of the issues that come up in law firms all the regulatory issues, obviously, the rules regulating the bar, you know those kinds of things, and I would look at the firms that these people had created and how were they making these transfers, and I saw disasters, things that went wrong, and you know you start to see the patterns emerge and at the same time I was doing a lot of work with partnerships in technology companies and so you know you bring those two pieces together and you realize, okay, well, there's a way to make this work in the law firm side where you really marry that partnership expectation issue and you marry the exit strategies and put them all together. And that's how I got here.
Speaker 3:So that's a foundation of a foundational principle of great legal marketing is look outside of legal for some answers. And we started doing that in marketing and now you have done that as part of your DNA in the rest of the business. Let me talk. We have a number of law students we know who listen to the podcast, and so I'm interested in that journey because I'm curious how old were you and how many years out of undergrad? And then you went to night school while you were working presumably full time in the daytime. So talk to us a little bit about that, because I think so many kiddos get out of undergrad and they, you know, they they figure there's a singular path, right, that is, call time out of your life or three, or be in law school for three years. And you didn't take that path. So what was that? What did that look like for you?
Speaker 1:Well, in the work that I was doing at the company, I would be doing a lot of deals right and I interface with the law department there and I got to be friends with a lawyer and he kind of showed me what they do and how to put these deals together and I thought to myself this is a pretty cool thing, let me go do that. And I was fortunate enough that there was a law school relatively close to where I worked Toro Law School and so it was a bit of an exhausting thing. I started at 26. I ended at 30.
Speaker 1:And for those four years I worked during the day at 6 pm to 10 pm. At night I went to school. It was a Judaic institution so it only had classes on Monday through Thursday. So on Friday nights I would go out to dinner with my wife, spend a little bit of time with my wife, and then Saturday and Sunday were devoted to schoolwork. So I don't know how somebody who's not in their 20s can necessarily do that. And it got a little bit tough at the end because we had our first kid and you know how much they change in that first year and you know you kind of feeling a little bit like all right, I'm ready for this to be over. You know, and at that time I actually was on Law Review too, so it made it even more tough.
Speaker 3:I would point out to those who are listening that you picked your law school based upon its location to the job that you were working in, not its quote prestige or its name or anything else, and you turned out pretty well, which is a lesson I tell folks you know. Unless you think you're going to be the President of the United States or on the Supreme Court or something like, go anywhere and don't go in debt. If you can avoid it, to go to a quote-unquote prestigious law school, because you're going to have so many years after you get out to make a career and nobody ever asks you after your first interview, maybe in your first job, like, what law school did you go to?
Speaker 1:So 100% agree, oh, yes.
Speaker 3:So now let's talk about this concept of a law, and particularly speaking to the solo and small firm market, which is where we both play this concept of creating a business that is in itself an asset that really is, I think, separated apart from the lawyer who's running it, because that's a concept that I think more and more lawyers are starting to grasp, because there's so many how to build a law firm type conferences now, and they weren't even 7 to 10 years ago. There was nothing like what we see today. But when we talk about creating something that's a business asset, particularly in the legal space, talk to us about what that means and looks like.
Speaker 1:So I kind of have this concept of the black box right, and into it you put a little bit of money and you turn the handle and out of it comes more money. Right and as near as you can get to that is the best kind of firm that you want, right? The idea being that most attorneys are going to work in their firm in some capacity, and the idea is that the firm not be dependent on you so that if all things went haywire you could hire somebody with reasonable amount of experience to sit in your seat and do what you do Not necessarily the leadership component, but the actual technical work component and that in theory you could go and do the leadership component separate from that. But you know that entails all things, so that you are essentially a cog in your law firm. In that capacity of being a producer. You're a cog in the law firm and it operates according to systems, and it operates really without you being sitting there driving the thing the entire time, and so you break that down into the various systems.
Speaker 1:That's the marketing piece. Does the marketing piece involve you day in and day out? The sales piece Are you the only person doing intake? It's the production piece. If everything rolls through you and you have to delegate every piece of the pie in every single case, then you're the bottleneck, you're a problem, right? So all of those things HR, the finance piece, finance piece is really crucial because that's a risk reduction for any potential buyer, that they know that you've kept your finances really well, they're accurate and you can use them as the dashboard to operate your firm.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you see this you probably do but in what you just said, one of the biggest barriers I think is a mental barrier, and that's the lawyer's ego is that I have worked very hard to go to law school to develop skills. My name often is the name that's on the door, the client's call wanting me, is what I hear and really ran through my head for many years as you counsel lawyers, particularly younger lawyers, who are listening and go ah yeah, let's set this up right from the beginning. Like, how do you counsel them about this belief that nobody could do this as well as I could? And so I really add I can't give up these other pieces that just are going to require me because I'm the smartest one in the room.
Speaker 1:So I feel their pain because it is endemic to lawyers, right, it's just a natural thing that I think we experience. But I will tell you that number one the team approach, is really important. So it's having somebody else other than you being their primary point of contact. There are times when, obviously, you need to talk to them, but having somebody else be that primary point of contact is absolutely essential. It's understanding that you can only answer legal questions, but that most of the time, not only from an intake standpoint but also from the context standpoint, it's not about the legal questions, it's about little things here and there and it's ultimately about getting it done.
Speaker 1:You know there's perfect and there's good enough. I don't know, and although it may not be perfect by your standards, it may be what the client needs, right, you can. You know you could work on a brief or you could work on a contract to the you know nth degree and it may be 100% perfect probably not, because they're, you know, long and things of that nature. But that's not what the client needs. They're legal issue addressed in a meaningful and economical way.
Speaker 3:I think I've learned to do this pretty well and I'll share with the listeners two strategies that I personally use. This one I'm never the one that's responding to a client's email. So, as you said, most client emails and inquiries are about process issues what comes next and when and what you need and they're not really require legal expertise or a lawyer. But even when they do the way we do it here is that email if it comes into me I get, I forward it onto my team and we craft a response together in a meeting. But that response comes back from team members saying hey, I met with Ben and AB and CND right, so it's legal advice, but it's coming from Ben. But what this does is it really trains the client to have that the assistant or the associate or whoever it is to be the primary source of contact in the firm and that's it. And over time this is how my team learns all of the how to answer all of the non-lawyer questions. And then they can get pretty good at drafting the answer to the lawyer questions and get me to approve it and, boom, they send it.
Speaker 3:The second thing we do is when I do have client calls and I do consult.
Speaker 3:It's on a speaker phone in the office, with team members in place here, especially if they're on the in my case, the long-term disability team, and so one of the things we're doing is we have a scribe that's taking notes.
Speaker 3:So I'm not taking notes and I'm not clicking keyboards or anything like that If somebody else to do that. But it's another way. And if we have a new lawyer or a new member of the team, they're also in listening in on the conversation, and it's one of the fastest ways for someone to be assimilated into the law of our niche. And what that does is it frees up my time to do what I'm paid to do, which is to make decisions that involve my judgment. They're going to have long-term effects, usually for the client, and so I would. As you know, one of the exercises we get lawyers to do is like track your time for a couple of days, because you'll drive yourself crazy if you do it for more than about three days and if you're not what you're spending your time on, and then start to think well, gee, how could I start to delegate some of this to other team members so that I can be the one who's making judgments and giving prescriptions or advice about what to do next.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we've done is used Loom pretty extensively for that. So Loom is great because, as I'm working on it so let's say, I get a document in from you know, another lawyer and I'm taking a look at it. As I'm taking a look at it, I'm making changes to it while I'm annotating those changes. So the loom will record the screen and it'll annotate as I'm talking into it to basically well, I wouldn't do this because of whatever, or here's a change that I think we need to make and you're explaining the reason for it as you go through it, so that I don't have to be the one to do it every single time. If that comes up again, we can just have them look at that video ahead of time and then they'll know at least those issues. They'll have those scored away.
Speaker 3:Exactly right. So you're developing a processes video library, which is valuable. Now that's equity right, Equity that you have in the firm, for sure. But before we get to the part where I want to talk about, like lawyer comes to you and says I want to engage with you and what problems are we trying to solve? Talk to us a little bit about the problems you have seen with lawyers and law firm dissolution or succession when there wasn't any forethought. The lawyer starts a practice runs, a practice is, the lawyer doesn't give any consideration to the what's next part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it can actually be a disaster. I mean, we, I've had people call me up saying, hey, I'm going to buy a law firm. You know, mr Lawyer died and his wife is running a law firm. And it's just completely shocking because, you know, obviously a wife can't, a non lawyer spouse cannot run a law firm and and you know so there's that where you're kind of leaving your spouse to clean up your mess, there are partnership disputes. So you know, unfortunately two lawyers will get together and decide, oh this is great, let's practice together. And they really don't think through all of the issues that are going to come up, right. And so, unfortunately, as a young lawyer, I actually was part of a partnership dispute. I was an associate in a firm. The lawyers got together really in a shotgun fashion. I knew one of the partners, he brought me into the firm and in four months the firm cratered. So that's really the kind of thing that can arise when you really don't think this through too much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, let's practice a lot together because we like each other. And I see, when I was a very young associate and I think that story you just told us is the story I also lived in where, you know, in a five year lease I think, after about 11 months they were broken up and counting how many Coca-cola's each firm's team members were drinking and they still had to put up with each other because they had a lease and nobody was going to leave the lease. So that's our let's talk. You know, I think one of the things you're big on is and this is new in law, I think still fairly new is buying and selling of practices and what it is an acquirer might be looking for.
Speaker 2:And in our meetings we talk about.
Speaker 3:Well, private equity is going. Private equity is going. Private equity is going. It may or may not, who knows. Like I'm in Virginia, it could be three lifetimes from now before that happens here. Just in terms of, like lawyer to lawyer, acquisitions and talking about, talk to us a little bit about what it is if you were thinking about acquiring a firm, or if you were building a firm to be acquired. What are the things that acquirers want to see, like to see, in terms of cash flow, profitability? You mentioned good financials. What else is it?
Speaker 1:A good marketing system, a consistent marketing system, and I mean it can't just be I'm sitting here and I get referrals. This got to be an active marketing system where, if you're not advertising, you're maintaining relationships. So I always push the print newsletter big time because that's a great resource. Most people are doing e-newsletters and sporadically. The beauty of the print newsletter is it's going to be monthly but it's a good marketing system that operates pretty much systematized. The lawyer can be involved because to a big extent we are a big portion of the good will of the law practice. But if we can get it as systematized as possible, it's having good systems.
Speaker 1:One firm that sold. Really the multiplier for that firm went up because their written systems were so good and they had a very narrow niche and you could literally go into that firm and sit and read those systems and know how to operate it at a base level. Now, of course, you don't get the experience, but you get the base level, so really important there. And then the EOS piece, right. So you get the finances, one part of that but the IT and the HR I can't tell you the number of firms. I'm just shocked by it that you ask them do you have an electronic list of your clients? Do you have a web-based practice management system? Where do you keep your documents and they'll say the server or no, we don't use a web-based system. It's really kind of shocking to me. I don't know how you manage a firm without that.
Speaker 3:We see that from time to time too and it's just amazing and frankly in Northern Virginia, because we're always trying to poach out of the insurance defense industry and it's shocking the way some of those firms appear to be run at least what we're being told from insiders with no. It's almost like in a firm of seven lawyers at seven different little kingdoms there, all running their own kind of drill and maybe sharing profits at some level or sharing insurance clients at some level, but no real organizational structure.
Speaker 1:A bunch of solos. Sharing is what that ends up being.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's funny because some of these firms like from the outside, if you don't know better, you're like oh, they've been around a while, You're good lawyers they must be really killing it. And they're killing themselves, but they're not killing it.
Speaker 3:I think, in terms of being able to make more money and reduce the chaos. All right, so let's talk about who you are. Who are you working with these days that you really like to work with? Like this guy or gal walks into your office or contacts you and you go yep, you are my target audience, you are my ideal client, because we talk a lot about that at Great Legal Marketing, like building a practice where you get to work, do work you like doing with people you like, and then for people that you like and for you these days, as we're recording this in early 2024, who's that ideal client for you?
Speaker 1:Lawyer with a solo small firm. So maybe they have one or two partners, but the lawyer is probably in the range of 50 to 70. They have built a business right. So it's not just the practice, it's an actual business and they're looking to transfer it. Now for the solo, you typically want to see that they have one or two associates and if they only have one associate, that they have somebody else in the office that's doing some client work, so a paralegal or a senior legal assistant, somebody like that, and in a practice area where ultimately the good will is transferable.
Speaker 1:So let me give you an example of a practice area that we work with somebody but frankly had a very difficult time is they were in a rural area, extreme rural area, and they had a really narrow niche in commercial real estate and basically rural commercial real estate, and it was very difficult to find somebody who would be interested in that because, number one, it's a rural area. Number two, not only do you have to be interested in going to the rural area, you also have to be very well versed in commercial real estate. This isn't a normal practice area that you get, whereas, on the other hand, another example of a good opportunity would be kind of the estate planning client. So they have an estate planning firm, they have one or two associates and the beauty is if you have that ongoing client appreciation program or review program so you get some subscription income into the firm. Those are in demand, those types of firms.
Speaker 3:Are you acting as a broker or as an advisor to one side or the other? In other words, a buyer or a seller comes to you. What do you view your role? What is your role in this case?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it depends on what the transaction is going to be. So obviously we have the law firm. So if we're doing an internal transfer or partnership arrangement, something like that's going to be all legal work. If they're looking to sell on the outside, I also have a brokerage firm have had it since 2006, and we handle those marketing brokerage type transactions. So that would be an outside sale or finding a merger party, something like that.
Speaker 4:Hey guys, this is Ben. If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts. You should know that my son, brian, and I have built a tribe of like-minded lawyers that were living lives of their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice. We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full-time practicing attorneys. Check us out at GreatLigalMarketingcom.
Speaker 3:What is the state of buying and selling law firms? Now, I know that you are in Florida and I forget whether your practice is limited to Florida or not, particularly on the brokerage side, but are you seeing more and more? Is this becoming quote unquote, common in the industry?
Speaker 1:It's becoming much more prevalent than it ever has been.
Speaker 1:Common isn't the word I would use, though.
Speaker 1:Most common, we see, are internal transfers. So you have an associate and we bring that associate into partnership and then ultimately there's a transfer to that associate. And there's a beautiful way to do it because right now and these are SBA regulations so if we do it in a multi-step process, we bring on the associate, we sell them 10% or so of the firm and the owner finances that, so basically takes back a note for the full 10%. Once that's paid off and the owner's ready to retire, the associate can use a SBA loan to come in and buy out the remaining interest of the partner, because under an SBA program you have to have 10% skin in the deal and so that 10% equity interest, once paid off, constitutes their cash into the deal. And so the seller may have to take back a small note or do something like that, but at the end of the day it allows you to finance that transaction, and the banks that I deal with love doing law firm transactions because they know they're going to get paid. Do you find that?
Speaker 3:most lawyers in the solo and small firm market who come to you are cognizant of things like this SBA. I don't know you can call it a loophole, but it's a way to utilize SBA funds, or they're not. They're just like hey, I've got an associate, I'm going to retire in five years. Help me.
Speaker 1:They're not. Yeah, they're definitely not aware of that, and so when we talk to them about it this is one of the reasons why I like to. The sooner we talk about succession planning and exits, the better, because if you look at the numbers, it takes about five years for the associate to pay off that 10%. It could be as short as three, it could be as much as five, so it takes that five years and you really can't have that second step. The owner can't retire until that five year period is done. And also, you know you're bringing somebody on who probably has never been a law firm owner, so they don't understand how it works, they don't understand the metrics right, and so you're teaching them. Okay, well, this is how you do compensation, this is how we track our numbers. You know all of these different things and hopefully getting them out there to build a book of business as well.
Speaker 3:What is the state of valuation of law firms when, as you know, brian and I, my son, are in practice together and several years ago when we were doing the paper and we each had around lawyers. But we went searching for just advice you can find first of all about buying and selling law practices and didn't find a lot of a lot of it. In the medical space. There was a lot of information, a lot of different ways, a lot of different structures, not a lot illegal and one of the issues that was very what was the value of the firm? And you know, for right or for wrong, ultimately we did a back in the napkin calculation that mom, my wife and his mom approved. So does that process of valuing the business differ? Because we are lawyers and you have to be a lawyer generally to?
Speaker 3:be an owner Does it value in. You know, is there a different methodology of valuing, like a pure contingent fee firm like we are versus a firm that gets this money your flat fee or hourly billing.
Speaker 1:There's a whole lot to unpack there. So the first thing is all values yeah, all values based on cash flow and the risk of that cash flow continuing forward, right? So the first thing we want to do is know what is the cash flow, and there's all sorts of measures of cash flow, but depending on the firm size. So if you're north of 2 million, you're going to probably use EBITDA. South of 2 million, you're going to use what's called adjusted net earnings, where you add back in the benefits that come to the owner. So owner has an automobile, the owner goes to travel to the ABA meeting and go skiing afterwards, whatever you know that kind of thing. All of that comes out. And so you figure out what the cash flow is and then, kind of what you're talking about here is what's the likelihood that we're going to continue to do that cash flow? And that's also a function of looking backwards, right? So if you're a contingency fee firm and you've consistently, you know, done I don't know last five years 1 million, 1.1, 1.2, 1.5, so it's a nice consistent growth, that looks perfect, right? Because clearly your systems are operating at that level. If, on the other hand, you go, you know 1.1, 1.2, 7, you know 900,000, there's something going on there, right? So that increases the risk and decreases the value.
Speaker 1:Now, if you have, in particular, a plaintiff's PI firm and you get an enormous case that comes through your system, well, what we're typically going to do is we're going to smooth that revenue. Number one if it's really out of the ordinary, we're going to take it out entirely because it's a complete outlier, right? But if you've been working on that case for four years, so at the end of four years you know you get your $2 million recovery out of it. Well, you've been working on it for four years, so let's spread the revenue out over those four years because that's more realistic to look at what the cost base is. And so, essentially, you know, trying to figure out how to do the metrics based on the individual firm. So there's no, like you know, rule of thumb that I would say, but it's really kind of looking at those numbers and smoothing them and playing with them and what makes sense and what doesn't.
Speaker 3:I wonder if you've ever done this. I had a lawyer once tell me that he was out in the Midwest and he got his firm value valued and they have a separate valuation of the website itself, of the web properties itself. Have you ever done that? And or no of an expert who can dig into the website as a discrete part of the business and say this website has value effects?
Speaker 1:So the question I would ask is that website producing work outside of the law firms area of expertise? Because if it's only generating law firm area expertise, it's a part of the law firm, it's part of their marketing system and that would be part of what's generating the revenue that we're counting towards the law firm value, so it's not like we could break it out Now. If, on the other hand, it's generating, you know, family law cases and we're getting a bunch of referral, referral fees for family law cases, well then those referral fees will be the indirect value of that website.
Speaker 3:That's interesting. Yeah, just wrote a piece for the March Journal talking about you. Know how much a website traffic is actually because of your brand? Like, they've heard of you, somehow they got a human referral to you or they saw some other part of your marketing, went to your website to check you out and now their first communication is through the website. But that's not how they actually heard about you in the first place. Okay, so tell us a little bit about your marketing. Like, how do you acquire clients? You talked about having a niche. You are in a niche. I am in a niche in the orisa space, less so in the personal injury space in the northern Virginia market. I know you work with our friend Kia Arian a bit, so talk to us a little bit about what you have done, particularly the last few years, to change up how you're getting your message yet the Alexander message out to ideal clients.
Speaker 1:Well, we're still working on it, so I'll tell you that it's not. It's certainly not perfect. We're always trying to tweak. So I've got the book which is how to sell your Florida law, or guide to selling your Florida law practice. I've got success stories booklet so we bring people in through that. We've advertised in the Florida Bar News to get traffic out of that Obviously these kinds of things. I've got a podcast called Law Deals that we just started out recently. We're on episode six, and so there's that.
Speaker 1:I have been in Orlando for 30 years now Interesting our 30th anniversary just passed for being here and so, as being a business lawyer in Orlando, I know a lot of people and you know you build up that annuity and it just keeps paying off. So we've got a really good list of former clients, referral sources and that kind of thing. And the newsletter has been an absolute blessing and you know, going from we had an e-newsletter for a long period of time but going from the e-newsletter to the print newsletter has been wonderful, absolutely wonderful. Every time it goes out we get more work coming in.
Speaker 3:About a week or so ago I got your big box which I presume is sent to prospects I don't actually know and it has your couple books in it. Talk to us about that. Well, we would call we got this from my friend, dan Kennedy a shock and awe package. How are you using it? And talk to us for a minute about the process for developing what goes in it? And I know that can change over time, but how did you and Faith figure out what we and Dan Kennedy and Faith are going to do with our box?
Speaker 1:So we I'll tell you that we got the idea at your conference, at the GLM conference in 2017, or I think that was the first one that we went to was in 2017.
Speaker 1:And so we implemented it in 2018. And we had I had that time, I think I had two books and you know we would put a bunch of articles that I'd written in there, and since then now we've got quite a few more books. But working with Kia really helped a lot because she just really revamped that. Kia has done a great job, both with the newsletter she redid the brand for the different books they look great and also the shock and awe box. Now what we do is we have you know, if we have a call I have a senior legal assistant is the person who handles the initial intake calls, so she gets an idea for who these, you know who the prospect is and where they're at in terms of practice size and what it consists of and things of that nature and then we're sending out the box after that and we're setting up a time to sit and talk with me.
Speaker 3:And if people want to contact you and reach out, I know you have downloadable one of your at least one of your books is downloadable. Where can they go to find out more about what you're doing, maybe get ahold of one of your books and whether or not they're in Florida? I think the work you're doing is very interesting, so the stuff you produce is very helpful.
Speaker 1:By the way, that's a great point too, because we've done some consulting on outside of Florida. So that is, yeah, absolutely can do it outside of Florida. So the first one I would say is lawfirmexitsuccesscom. That's lawfirmexitsuccesscom and that is booklet of success stories, so lawyers who've sold their practices in various different ways and you know it's all sorts of different scenarios, from people who wanted to get out right away to people who were doing some real long-term planning. So it can give you an idea about kind of the work that we do.
Speaker 3:And that's a great URL, as we're recording this again in early. And for what are you working on this year? If I can ask you there, personally or professionally, what are you trying to get better at?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm trying to get better at delegating. I'm not a good delegator. I find that I make assumptions about what people should know and what they do know, and I have to work on that quite a bit. The other thing I'm really trying to launch is this idea of the YouTube kind of course, on how to set up your exit plan for your law practice. Obviously, we can't service everybody, so it's a way to kind of help the market and also get our name out there. And then really, the podcast, trying to get the podcast out there. Similarly, a little bit different than the video channel, the video channel will be a little bit more how-to, whereas the podcast we're looking to bring on some people who've sold their firms or done some major improvements to their firms and tell their stories about how they really created the firm of their dreams.
Speaker 3:So if you're listening to this and you have done that, created the firm of your dreams and or have sold the firm, reach out to Ed, because with these podcasts, one of the hardest parts is keeping the flow going. And I forget are you working with Richard, with Push Button or somebody else?
Speaker 1:We're using Podcastle AI, so we're doing it in-house, so I have a marketing coordinator who's excellent at the technology piece.
Speaker 3:Perfect, very good, all right, so last little session. Would you wish that lawyers knew that they just don't even know, that they don't know in terms of building something that's stable beyond their interest or ability to keep it going themselves.
Speaker 1:I tell you there are such deals available now in terms of law firms. If you want to expand your law firm, whether it's into a different city or a different practice area, looking at buying a firm is a wonderful way to go about doing that, because I mean you started up your firm, I started up my firm. You know the headaches that go along with starting up a firm To get the right firm to come in and buy a firm that's already operational. I'm sure you'll have to make tweaks you always do but it's so much easier than starting from scratch.
Speaker 3:There's that plus, I just think, and Brian, and I think that there's opportunity with lawyers, have built firms and they're looking at retirement, but they've never even considered the fact that there is a business that can outlast them. And so I think you're right, and I've reached out to a number of lawyers. They say hey, you're thinking about retiring. Don't turn off your website, don't close down anything until you at least talk to us so we can see what's there and we have interest. Right, they may not be ready today, but oftentimes we're the only ones that have ever said to them dude, when it's time to stop, don't stop yet. At least let us have a look maybe.
Speaker 1:It's a sad thing when we see that somebody has done that. They have this great setup and then they just shut it down. It's just really sad.
Speaker 3:I have bought. I purchased URLs from estates of lawyers because the URL if not the website, the URL had traffic and there's a way to redirect traffic and get the power of quality backlinks. That's a discussion for a whole, nother thing, and I'm probably over my head in terms of SEO technology, but it has worked for us. So just keep your eye out for people that go on to become judges or pass away too early, who have real working websites.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's a fantastic tip right there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to be alert. But oftentimes the estate will like oh, you want to give us money for this. You don't even want the website, you just want the URL. We don't even know why you would want that. Okay, here's $5,000. Here's $500. Boom, yeah. Look, it's been great talking to you. I know you and Faith are a great partnership both in life and in the business. We enjoy having you both from time for our quarterly meeting, yeah, and we enjoyed coming to your place, to Orlando last fall for the summit.
Speaker 3:So thanks for carving out some time today.
Speaker 1:Thanks, take care.
Speaker 3:Talk to you later, man.
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