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The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
I am more convinced than ever that nothing that traditional bar organizations are doing is going to move the needle on the sad stats on lawyer happiness ...
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
From Sign-Up to Client: Building Lasting Relationships
Most law firms chase leads. Smart ones build loyalty.
Ben Glass sits down with membership growth strategist Scott Whitaker to explore how law firms can transform new clients into lifelong advocates. With roots in coaching, ministry, and now podiatry marketing (yes, really), Scott shares a simple framework that applies to any law firm serious about referrals, retention, and reputation.
You'll learn:
- The 3 things every client needs to receive, believe, and achieve
- How to wow clients in the first hour, day, and week
- Why a $5 candle might outperform your $5,000 ad spend
- How to turn every client into a referral machine—with zero awkward asks
If you’re ready to stop “handling cases” and start building community, this episode is your blueprint.
🎧 Available now on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
They may have signed whatever documents that you need for retainer and all of that, but in their mind they're literally just saying that they just signed you or they signed up for your services. And so what is that process? From them saying I signed up for this to maybe some of your clients who have been with you for years saying I'm a client of yours.
Speaker 2:Okay, welcome back. This is Ben. This is, of course, the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, so our longtime listeners know that I say like every week I get to speak to someone interesting inside or outside of legal who's dinging the world. And today is going to be fun because I'm talking to my buddy, scott Whitaker. I've known Scott, you know we said pre-roll maybe 15 or 17 years, maybe it hasn't been quite that long.
Speaker 2:But Scott and I first met in Dan Kennedy's highest level mastermind group and Titans group. We were each in it and it's interesting because Scott at that point was working in an organization and for a fellow who was kind of me to the pastor industry or I am him, because Nelson was probably a couple of years ahead of me to I am him to the pastor industry, or I am him because Nelson was probably a couple years ahead of me to I am him to the legal industry. And so we met there and Scott's work today is mainly in helping coaches and gurus build membership organizations. He's also helping and leading. He's the podiatry Midas, so he's a little bit into marketing for podiatrists, marketing and practice building for podiatrists.
Speaker 2:But everything we're going to talk about is transferable to growing your law firm. Why? Because we are talking to human beings and we're trying to get them to make a decision, in Scott's case, mainly about joining, membership, growing membership, retaining, keeping attention and all of that stuff, which is exactly what we talk about all the time in Great Legal Marketing. So, scott, thanks for carving out some time. You're a busy guy. You were just before we went live telling me you've got races that you're running down there in hot Charleston, south Carolina.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just finished a 10K Not just finished like today, but like there was a 10K run recently and I'm gearing up for the Peachtree Road Race in Atlanta and doing another 10K over there and about to literally hop on a plane, go meet a client as soon as we're done with this podcast, heading up to Boston and be there for a couple of days. But, ben, I was thinking about this as well before we got on the call and I really do think I think we crossed paths, I'm sure at one of the events back in 2010. And then I think it was 2011 when we first joined that high-end mastermind group Dan Kennedy runs which, by the way, you just told me that Dan's speaking at your summit, so everybody should go definitely register for Ben's event here coming up, where Dan will be a featured speaker. But yeah, we got our, we got our start there and, you know, watched each other. I was working with Nelson Searcy at the time and we were building that ended up building that coaching organization to be the largest in its niche. It was the largest pastor coaching organization and I tell people like Seinfeld, I was on top and I just had this you know inclination of what's next largest in its niche, that I could then take those same principles and apply it to other niches and other coaches and their coaching organizations and help them grow their coaching organization. And so that's what I've been doing ever since is taking those principles, applying it to other niches, because they're all in the business of coaching, but there are certain processes there. So, in the same way that Ben started out this call by saying, hey, there are transferable principles, I'm very aware of that in the sense of what you all do as lawyers and yeah, I just. I mean, I'll give you one right off the top where you talked about you know clients and so forth.
Speaker 1:A lot of times when you get a client, you will say just that, like I got a brand new client and you think they're a client of yours. They may have signed whatever documents that you need for retainer and all of that, but in their mind they're literally just saying that they just signed you or they signed up for your services. And so what is that process? From them saying I signed up for this to maybe some of your clients who have been with you for years saying I'm a client of yours and what I've identified and this is what I do in coaching organizations is there is a three-step process and it's the same for your law firm is that you have to ask what do you want them to receive? So what is it that you're going to deliver on? Not just your services, but, like, what do you want them to receive as part of it? So you know there should be some nurturing that is going on in your relationship with them as your client. So you know, hopefully you have a newsletter, which I know is what one of the tools that Ben teaches is having a client newsletter and being able to build that your clients. So you know, hopefully you have a newsletter, which I know is what one of the tools that Ben teaches is having a client newsletter and being able to build that relationship with them. So what do you want them to receive?
Speaker 1:What do you want them to believe? So believe is, you know what sets your law firm apart from others. Like, there is a certain belief system that you have in your law firm, your culture, how you provide your service and fulfill on it. What do you want them to believe? By the way, I would consider peace of mind part of that belief Whatever they're coming to you for in the way of needing your services. There is a peace of mind that you want to be giving them, and so how can you get them to believe in you and in your service?
Speaker 1:And then, what do you want them to achieve? Now, you know. So, if you think about that, there are certain things in the cases that you might represent them, in that obviously you want them to achieve, but there are steps in between that them, in that obviously you want them to achieve, but there are steps in between that there's information that you need to get from them, and so, literally, I'm just trying to get them to achieve by maybe opening up some and sharing some documents, whatever it may be, but like creating these little stepping stones to where they do this first and they achieve that, and then they do this second, and they achieve that, and then they do this third. So what do you want them to receive, believe and achieve is how, then, you assimilate them from and take them from being somebody who just signed up for your service to literally saying I'm a client and they're trusting you and trusting your guidance every step of the way. So, ben, I know I just dropped a like went straight in here.
Speaker 2:Ok, people can just go put that on replay Now. Look, that was a ton and look before we go any further, you know. I also want to say that folks on the podcast have heard me refer to a group of Dan Kennedy alumni. So my friends in the Dan Kennedy world who get together several times a year. Scott is the organizer of this event and it is a really cool group of people that we quote unquote have grown up with in our adult business lives and with Dan as one of our primary mentors. And Scott has also done some coaching for Great Legal Marketing, helping Brian and I to continue to grow that organization. So what you just said is really interesting, because the good news is well, the bad news is this is work All right. The good news is is that when done, when the work is put in, it allows the folks who are members of great legal marketing.
Speaker 2:You know the majority of small law firms in America, scott are not spending tens of thousands or tens of millions of dollars a year. I mean Charleston is probably in. South Carolina is a pretty big advertising state, a lot of billboards and stuff, but each month at our law firm we get cases from people who have signed contracts with a mega advertising firm who don't have any nurturing, who don't know what they believe in and what they want the customer or the client to believe in, and then, even if they did, they don't communicate it very well and who really focus on only one thing in terms of achievement, which is we're going to get you the biggest settlement we possibly can you know in the personal injury space. And they come to us frustrated because once the signature goes on the line, they never hear anything from the law firm. They are relegated to a position speaking totally to paralogues, and there's nothing wrong with that but they never hear from the lawyer and the time it takes to get any real nurturing, personal feeling is too long for them and they get frustrated.
Speaker 2:And then they call firms like ours, where one of the things that we're really good at and we spend almost no money on advertising per se really good at and we spend almost no money on advertising per se we do a ton of relationship building but in terms of buying cold ad traffic out there like almost zero, except to the extent that we're experimenting with something either, you know, for the law firm and also for great legal marketing, but we're really good at those things that you have taught Brian and I for years and they're really people ought to go. You've got a great book Triple your Membership in 21 Days. It's for coaches growing memberships but it's for you too, if you're running a small law firm, as long as you're smart enough to translate this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you mentioned really quick, though, like you know, don't feel like they have big budgets and things like that. So if you break down, like what do you want them to receive? So literally somebody signs with you, well, like, what do you want them to receive in the first hour? If you just answer that question, like in the first hour, like just having something go out to them, that is nothing business related, and by that I mean it's not, like you know, legal document or form or whatever. It's just a personalized email saying thank you. So what do you want them to receive first hour? Cost you nothing, send that email out. What do you want them to receive in the first day? So you know it could be if you you know I get it Some of you you're solo law firm owners it might just be you. But if within the first day they just got a phone call, could be, you know, your assistant, who's out there and just hey, wanted to call you, and just you know. Thank you again for allowing us to represent you. Here's what you can anticipate next If you ever have any questions. Again, just personal touch, outbound phone call. More than likely you're going to get their voicemail and so you just leave a friendly voicemail and, again, just a simple touch what do you want them to receive in the first week? So we got first hour, first day, first week, handwritten note, simple, just going back to the analog showing up different, the analog showing up different, power note with a handwritten address on the outside of it, not you know typed or anything like that, with a live stamp. It was just a handwritten note.
Speaker 1:Now, if you really want to do it up and you do want to invest some money, then like, why not include a gift card? So we did this with my wife, ben, of whom you've met. She's a real estate agent and recently one of the things that we did is with a client. We stuck a candle that they signed with her and she's now representing them in the purchase of their home or whatever. But they were so stressed, so included a stress relieving candle and it was, hey, enclosed with this letter is, you know, it's just a my way of saying thank you, but it's a stress relieving candle because I'm here to take away your stress and make this buying process for you smooth. So like you could do that same thing with your, with your clients, in the sense of like go buy you know, a stress relieving candle and, like, I'm here to take away your stress and you know, through this process, here's how we're going to do it and it's just a simple wow gift within that first week.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I was going to say and, and, and. You know, as you know and most of our members know, like part of our process is they do get a box, they do get a post-signing box and on the box right there it says better days are on their way, because all of our clients are sick or injured in you know, in some way shape or form. And yes, so they are. They are, they are stressed They've oftentimes been the vast majority have been thrust into our world.
Speaker 2:They didn't ask for this right, but now they show up in the legal space and this is a place, scott, and what you're talking about is it is not a huge, it does not have to be a huge investment of money. It is an investment of thinking, time, culture, training. I mean it really helps when your team believes that you are indeed the best solution for the clients that you have accepted, when they enthusiastically believe that they are working for the guy or the gal at the top of the mountain, like that really helps a lot. But now we're deep into hiring.
Speaker 1:At the same time, your box. You thought about it once, you put some time into it and now I know you and your team, you'll probably reevaluate it every single year and update the box or whatever, and maybe even more frequently of that. Essentially it's the front-end, when, when it's done, the process has been built. So now it's you know every first hour. This is what they get every first day, this is what they get first week. This is what they get. They get dropped into the newsletter uh, you know, uh list, and so they're now getting that monthly and then they may get whatever updates as you represent them. But, like you, put that process together. Yes, there's time involved in it. It can be very, very low cost. You put that together once, document it and then now it just runs itself and there's. There's even portions of that. Depending upon what you use, that can even be automated to make that happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's there's. Again, there's good news and bad news in that space as well. So so we have some good automation, not just for the beginning of the case, but as the case moves from stage to stage to stage. There's, there's automation and videos and stock stuff.
Speaker 2:Now the error would be to stop there and to not do the simple personal. So you've been in my eyes. I have this stack of envelopes and this stack of note cards and we have our weekly meeting, and so most of my work is leadership work. Now in the firm. I don't do a ton of legal work per se, but one of the things I'm looking at every week is who is a new referral source Like? Who sent us a case? We have automation. We have standard procedures that others are already implementing, especially if you're new. Oh, this is the first time Scott sent us a case Like boom.
Speaker 2:But I'm also doing some research, especially if I don't know you. I'm going to go check your LinkedIn, you going to go check your Lincoln and go to go check your website if you have one, and I'm going to write you a personal note. And you know I I've got hundreds, hundreds of books in the office here that we've had over the years that we've given away, and I can usually find something that is appropriate to what I'm seeing. And the other thing is having a team that listens really well and picks up on the things that are personal, and then having a CRM that you can put all these notes into to see what it is that Scott likes.
Speaker 1:So in the same way that you just outlined this so like I just positioned it as here's what you can do to assimilate clients, so, ben, just so that you guys catch this, ben just outlined it so also you could take the same exact process and do it for your referral sources. So you know what do you want your referral sources to receive first hour, first day, first week, first month, and then ongoing after that, and you start putting that time in, and then ongoing after that and you start putting that time in. I mean, we all know a referral is a way better lead for us than a lead coming in from cold traffic, marketing or anything like that.
Speaker 2:So now that's worth investing some time in on that process, 100% true, yeah, and we could do a whole program on that because we have a. The tension in our law firm is that it's like direct mail, direct mail, direct mail, direct mail lists, envelopes and stamps, and of course, I have some young people that work for me Like no, we got MailChimp and stuff. Okay, you do your MailChimp, I'm going to do my thing. But here's something that we may or may not have shared with you that over 83% of our dollars at the law firm come to us because the journey starts because somebody mentioned our name, my name, brian's name or the firm's name. They may go to our digital properties, for sure, but 83% of our actual dollars come because a human being trusted enough to just give our name out and call these guys.
Speaker 2:They seem smart, you know, they're, um, having a, a process where everybody, whether it's a new client or referral source that comes through, actually gets treated as a human being, gets nurtured, um, and we have systems for, like, what do I want you to actually believe about me? What are we actually going to achieve? Because, again, each of those two verticals client and referral source there's an answer for each one of those questions, and it's a different answer, but there's a way to deliver it. And lawyers got like you know lawyers, like they're so anxious about oh, I just want to spend more money to get another lead, so they're buying leads or they're buying digital advertising or whatever, and then there's nobody there to answer the phone.
Speaker 1:So here's my simple three-step process for referrals. It comes down to three items that you have to have in your arsenal. Number one is tools. So what are the tools that you have now? I mean, ben just talked about, you know, the, the digital assets, and there's some direct mail. But here, here's what I've learned.
Speaker 1:All of that is really to drive my referrals and to stay top of mind with my referrals, and so one of the reasons to be doing direct mail is knowing that your current clients are going to be receiving that direct mail as well and then becoming top of mind. But at the same time, I want to give them tools. So it could be a book, ben. You've authored a number of books, so it could be that you've got a book within your law firm that is now a tool, and that is a tool that you can then give to somebody else. So be thinking about what tools do you have that you can use to create referrals. Then you have to have training. So it's one thing, ben, for you to say you know, hey, scott, here's a copy of my book, and that be it. It's another thing for you to train and say, hey, scott, here's a copy of my book. Next time you're at the soccer field and you come in contact with somebody who has just been injured, feel free to share that with them. Now what I did there is I took the tool and I gave them training, and now I'm training them to not just hold this, but literally when you come into conversation with somebody who's been injured, would you please be willing to give them a free copy? And, by the way, if you ever run out of copies I got a ton of copies here in my office I'd be glad to give you more. So now I'm training them to take what would be one of the best business cards, which is a book, and deliver that as a resource to others who may be in need.
Speaker 1:So tools plus training, then timing, timing. So obviously it would be. Hey, scott, here's my book. By the way, feel free to give it out to anybody and everybody.
Speaker 1:You know that's poor timing. That's not going to do me any good. I'm just getting rid of books off my shelf if that's all I'm doing and just trying to get them out there. No, what I'm trying to do is to say next time you're at the soccer field that's one timing and you have a conversation with somebody who's been injured. That's the second timing. Then utilize this tool, and so I'm constantly looking for opportunities to take tools, train people to use that tool and then be conscious of when is the right time to utilize that tool, and so it's always tools plus training plus timing. A lot of times we get these tools and we just cast them out there hoping they're going to return back to us many referrals, but there's never the training behind it, and so we got to train people who are referral sources, and even our customers and clients, to know how to use that tool and then when to use that tool.
Speaker 2:On the timing, and when you have a referral system that utilizes all three of those, you've got a robust referral system that should be driving you new clients be driving you new clients and think about how much more comfortable both you are and the future referral source is using that process and getting that training than the typical. I hate to bang on life insurance folks but hey, scott, it's great, here's your new life insurance. By the way, do you know five people who I could call and bug and say that you recommend it? And the other thing is folks who are listening to this. Like Michael DeLong at Paperback Experts does a really, really great job If you don't have a book and Scott is right, as you all know, I'm probably into the 20s now with all different sorts of books. I'm probably into the 20s now all different sorts of books, but what Michael is good at and not every self-publisher is, but what he's good at is he understands all this stuff. So part of what you get when you have Michael is he will help train you how to use the tool of the book after we put the time, energy and money into creating the book.
Speaker 2:Let's talk for a little bit about the second prong of your stool there, which is belief. And what do you want them to believe? Again, this is someone who is now coming to your universe. Dan Kennedy often says the scariest time for a legal client is on the way back after signing, or today, on the way after they've clicked to sign on their phone. And now they wonder, like what have I just done? So let's talk about really thinking about the subject. Why, why do we want them to believe anything at all? And then, what do we want to and how can we deliver that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean the the why do you want them to believe anything at all really comes down to being the provider of choice. I mean you may think that, okay, I've got them signed, but you really want them to know that you're going to be the provider of choice. So, ultimately, affirming that buying decision and helping them know that you know they are in good hands, that they are going to be well taken care of.
Speaker 1:Now also just to say it, because we are talking about legal I mean it may also be managing expectations, in the sense that the client has this big number in mind that they're thinking they're going to get in settlement. And you're already a little bit cautious. You know you signed them, but you're thinking like their number is way outrageous and I've got to manage that, and so part of that belief is also managing expectations as part of it. And it might not be you know, it might not be number and settlement. It could be length of time to get to settlement as well. So, like you know, they may think this thing's going to happen, you know, in the next couple of weeks, and you know it's going to be months.
Speaker 2:What if you saw some of the advertising and I don't know how much of the digital advertising, and you know it's by what they are seeing in the world of crazy lawyer advertising. Hey everyone, scott and I just talked about a really cool AI intake product that he's using in podiatry. But you know there's a product just like that in legal and I just want to introduce you to, if you haven't checked them out, our friends at Gabby AI. Eric Ovesny, was at the Great Legal Marketing Summit in 2024, and he'll be back in 2025. And he's the founder of Gabby AI and I've seen the demos, I've listened to the recordings and this is some pretty cool stuff.
Speaker 2:As soon as you finish listening to this podcast, go over to meet Gabby that's meet Gabbycom and sign up for a demo, because I think you're going to be impressed, particularly if you don't have your phones live answered at nights and weekends. Tell Eric you heard about Gabby AI on the Renegade Lawyer podcast and, again, he and his company will be at the Great Legal Marketing Summit 2025 in October of this year. If you haven't already signed up for that, go to glmsummitcom. That's glmsummitcom.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, that's a perfect example of why you should be doing this, because it is. They just got in their car and then they see billboard, you know, saying, hey, you know, I just got paid, you know, a hundred thousand dollars by filling out the simple form. And, you know, you, your marketing and it is marketing in the way of belief is to counter some of those counter messages that they're going to be getting. And they're also going to have conversations with family, with friends. They're going to hear crazy stories from family and friends, and so they're going to come to you and you've probably had this happen a number of times already where it's like, hey, I was talking to my third cousin who was in a similar accident like mine, and they did this, this and this. Can we do this, this and this too? And it's a completely different location, state rules, regulations around it, all of that.
Speaker 1:And you're thinking like, okay, now I've got to help explain why that's not going to be possible for them when third cousin made them, why that's not going to be possible for them when third cousin made them believe that this is going to be, you know, you know, crazy opportunity for them or whatever. So again, you're controlling the conversation in their mind is is what you're wanting to do is, and not just controlling for the sake of controlling the message, but really it's protecting the relationship. Um, really it's protecting the relationship. It's protecting the expectations that are, you know, both ways your expectation of them, their expectation of you. It's protecting the messages that they're getting from others who are out there competing for their business and so forth, and then just really, again, going back to that, they are in, you know, they're in good hands, there's peace of mind that they're going to get, and you're able to explain that to them on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the other thing, too, is when you have this process embedded in your firm and you're having these as part of the early discussions. The whole, now you've become a client here's how this deal works is you are going to discover earlier some people that you won't be able to change expectations. You'll discover you'll never be able to make them happy, and we sometimes make no-go decisions after they have signed, whereas the mistake again, many lawyers make is they don't have these. They have no process first of all, they have no training first of all, they have no culture first of all, and so they don't have these discussions until like, oh, we're a month from trial and let me tell you what I think your case is worth. And they're like well, wait, we're off by 50x, and so it really helps. It helps with the lawyer's peace of mind and quality of life too, because it's okay to separate yourself, to divorce yourself from clients where you're never going to be able to manage that expectation. But it is much better to do that early in the process, if it has to be done, than when you've invested time, energy and money and now there's no other place for them to go. That's what causes practice claims, bar complaints, one-star reviews and things like that. So there's a reason behind the reason for putting in place these steps that Scott is talking about.
Speaker 2:All right, let's talk about achievement Now. You know, our members are not just person-treated lawyers, right? In fact, it's not even probably a majority. They run the spectrum of consumer-facing and small business-facing law firms. So you do have your criminal defendants, you have your family law, you've got folks in bankruptcy, you have folks that have an idea and want to protect intellectual property and, you know, build something. So we have firms that are devoted, like, more to opportunity really, than to solving crisis. So let's just talk a bit about this third prong, which is, what do we want them to achieve? And then, how do we use that as a differentiator, particularly in the personal injury space, from everyone, it's like it's all about the money, it's all about the big check.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when I, when I look at it as an achievement, you can consider it number one. And maybe another word is is what milestones are you going to put in place that, as they come upon those milestones, they just need that affirmation? Uh, you know, the affirmation that we get from other people. I mean, I mean it, it, it does something to us psychologically, it builds that relationship, it says that I'm on the right pathway, I'm doing the right thing, I'm making the right decisions, I'm in the right place, I'm trusting the right people, I'm making the right decisions, I'm in the right place, I'm trusting the right people, I'm, you know, trusting you as my lawyer. And so the moment that you can then say in your casework here are the different milestones that we want each person to go through, and it may be that you know one milestone and, ben, you'll be able to speak to this maybe a little bit more but like just going through the process of discovery and saying, okay, here's everything that we can go through, and so now we've finished the process of discovery.
Speaker 1:Most of us then immediately move on to the next milestone, you know, but taking a moment and celebrating that you know, and just saying, hey, you know, listen, ben, uh, you know, as we were going through all the discovery here, I know that wasn't a fun process. You had to do this, you had to do that. But I just want you to know, as a client of mine, that, uh, you know, you made that process very easy for me. And, uh, you know we were able to do this, this and this. And, uh, I just want to you know we were able to do this, this and this.
Speaker 1:And I just want to, you know, congratulate you, number one, that we've completed this milestone. And, number two, let you know that you know, of all my clients, that you've made this very easy and very enjoyable. And so, like immediately, right then, and there I've just patted Ben on the back and gave him some affirmation of achievement that, okay, yeah, you know we did this. Yeah, that was kind of difficult. I had to go do this. I had to do that. I had to, you know, um, you know, give testimony, whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:Well, in a deposition, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, deposition, you know. So, like give them that affirmation, I mean especially coming out of deposition, for example. I mean like you know, they don't know which. By the way, if you just take deposition, like managing their beliefs about deposition, preparing them for that, what needs to be done in their belief about it? I mean they're thinking like you know, they've watched, you know, whatever you know.
Speaker 2:Stopping them from watching YouTube.
Speaker 1:Deposition and horror nightmare stories I was going to say law and order or whatever where they think like this is all going to be done, you know within. You know, uh, 60 minutes, you know, or what. So, like, yeah, I mean like helping guide them through that and then, at the same time, just taking a moment and you're really putting in moments of celebration that then let them know that hey, we're making progress, that they're doing and living up to their expectations that are placed upon them, because you do have expectations placed upon them and so, like they're meeting those expectations and celebrating it in the same way that you, as their lawyer, would want to know that you're serving them to their expectations. You know, if you think about it a lot of times, our clients they don't necessarily tell us you know how grateful they are or how appreciative they are. You know along different milestones, they don't know all the work that we did going into deposition and all of that, and they're definitely not necessarily giving us the pat on the back.
Speaker 1:Well, what I have found is is that when we do it first, then it reciprocates. So if I model the behavior that I want my clients to then have and impress that upon them, they then model it back to me, because the moment I say Ben, hey, listen, I know that deposition and everything that we did there, but I want you to know that was one of the smoothest depositions. I know you were a little bit nervous but, man, you did so great. You were calm and composed and poised and I think you represented our case very well and all of these things, and I just want to let you know that's behind us now, and so here's what's going to happen next. But, more than anything, great job, great work. And you know what Ben's going to say to me hey everyone.
Speaker 2:This is Ben again, just butting in here. If you don't already have a copy of my book, renegade Lawyer Marketing, you're really missing an opportunity to help your firm grow. You're really missing an opportunity to help your firm grow. This book is 300 pages of very practical advice for those of us who are running solo and small firms and who are not spending tens of thousands of dollars or $100 million on advertising At Ben Glass Law. Over 80% of our new leads start because a human being has mentioned our name and in this book, brian and I share the secrets that make this possible.
Speaker 2:Now you can get the book over at Amazon, but if you do, you're going to miss out on three really terrific bonuses that are only available when you order the book from renegadelawyermarketingcom. Number one you're going to get our ultimate referral letter. This is the exact letter that we've used to drive referrals both from lawyers and other professional practice owners, including healthcare providers in our case, and has helped us accomplish our financial and growth goals. Second, you're going to get our intake success system, because what good is it to drive more cases, to get more leads if you don't have a system and a person and a script for answering the phone when they do call. The intake success system is a complete course that will help you and your team convert more leads.
Speaker 2:And finally, you're going to get the notes from the latest Great Legal Marketing Summit. These are 100 pages of notes and slides from all of the speakers at our last summit. And again, none of these bonuses are available on Amazon. Finally, if you like, after you buy the book, you'll be able to get on a 20-minute strategy call with either Brian or me. What we're really good at is helping you figure out what's the best use of your next dollar and your next hour in building the perfect practice to serve your life. So go over to renegadelawyermarketingcom, pay shipping and handling and order your book today.
Speaker 1:He's going to say oh well, scott, well, thank you for everything that you did to prepare me. I couldn't have done this without you. This, you know, this, this and this you know you. Uh, given me, you know, these questions to think about beforehand was so helpful, and so now he's reciprocated that back to me and it just continues to drive that relationship forward so that it continues to increase my referrals and makes them a returning client if the need ever arose referrals and makes them a returning client if the need ever arose, because the thing that they will remember the most is the total experience.
Speaker 2:How did they feel in going through the process Again, thrust into our world and I can't say this enough Like we don't have to spend a ton of money, we sole and small firm lawyers, to do what Scott is talking about, to make this experience really terrific from beginning to end and then post case right, because that client stays in your network, in your tribe, after his or her case is over. In fact, most of the discussions I mean you'd appreciate this, scott. So I get to talk to a lot of high wage earners doctors, lawyers, ceos, cfos who have some sort of disability and they're thinking about tapping their long-term disability insurance policy. And my exact words are we're really good at the legal and I'm going to walk you through the legal, for sure, but what's next? Tell me about your life If you can't operate but you're 50 years old, what are we going to do?
Speaker 2:What are we going to do next? And no one has ever spoken to them, and certainly if they've spoken to other lawyers, I know those conversations are not taking place. In part, that's my nature to just to ask curious questions and to try to literally truly try to help people solve next stage of life, because I'm just a life coach, really playing as a lawyer and a coach. But the point is like the delta between most practices and what they could be is not that big right, the gap is not that huge. But continually listening to people like Scott reading books about this, coming to our stuff, of course, getting on calls if you're a member, coming to our event, things like that of course, but there's a lot of good rooms to be in today.
Speaker 1:Ben, you said something I want to point out. It comes so natural to you. It comes so natural to you. You said, as you were talking about this 50-year-old who's thinking about tapping, you know, long-term disability, you said what are we going to do next? What Ben did not say is where are you going to do next? Right, he, he, he built the relationship. Listen, you're 50 years old, you're thinking about doing this, so let's just have a conversation. What are we going to do next?
Speaker 1:That is a very different conversation and different feeling behind it than saying, hey, you're 50 years old, what are you going to do next? Like, all of a sudden, they're just separate, and I wanted to point that out because you said that so quickly and you know, I've known you long enough to where you know. Again, this all comes natural. But when you're talking with your, your clients, it's not a a you, it's a we. You know so, changing your language from you. You could do this. Here are your options. It could be well, we could do this. Here are your options. It could be well, we could do this. Or here are our options and it's not this. You know, I'm only here to consult and do this. I'm on this journey with you and guiding you and just changing your language from that you to we to our will.
Speaker 2:From that you to we to our will just provide such an immense relationship increase for you with your clients those of us who are running smaller firms that are not doing a ton of TV advertising have is that we actually have the time and the space to know our clients' names and they know our names and so, um, again, there's no place.
Speaker 2:I would rather there's no space. Really, I'd rather work in than the space that I get to work in. Let me ask you, as, as we're coming to our close, you've got this really interesting background. So currently you're, you're also um helping podiatrists market, but you, you kind of grew up in the um helping pastors, uh, uh, put more people in pews in churches, and I watched you and saw what you and Nelson were doing for years and years. So I'm curious, what are we doing now? What are we doing right? You got me doing this. What are we doing now in podiatry? Right, Because there's a bunch of podiatrists I know running small practices, probably not too dissimilar from the dental specialists, running small practices, Like what is going on in that space that we might, as lawyers, learn from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's interesting because most podiatrists I mean they're solo owners, just like solo law firm owners. I mean it's just them and front desk assistant and you know that's pretty much it for a number of podiatry practices. And I came into podiatry honestly because one of my clients is a podiatrist and he coaches other podiatrists, much like Ben coaches lawyers on how to grow their law firm. He coaches them on how to get more patients and build their practice. And it's a little bit interesting because not only does he do it in the way of the business sense, but he also teaches a very specific method of surgery. And so Dr TJ Ahn is his name, he's in Chicago and if you need a podiatrist, he's one of the leading minimally invasive surgeons in the US.
Speaker 2:Just for our listeners. Imagine TJ's seminars. You actually come in and he orders a bunch of cadavers and you're working on things. I mean not just like what color font do we make the ad right? But now we're working on feet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's actually doing one this weekend where he's got a group of podiatrists coming in and he's doing a cadaver lab workshop with them for two days where they're actually which we would all appreciate if we ever needed a podiatrist, somebody who's actually done surgery at least on a cadaver leg before they started on a real leg, and so he teaches them that. But then what we noticed was is that, like most and like you listening to this podcast, you're probably really good at delivering the service that you've got. You know how to fulfill on it, you know how to do it, but you don't know how to get new clients in or how to get new patients in, and so TJ and I created Podiatry Midas. He started it and then joined in with them and lead the business, and now we are serving podiatrists specifically with what we call as an automatic patient connector, which is a voice AI service that handles the phone system now so that when they call the office, prospective patients are able to get their questions answered and actually get appointments booked without having to use a live person at the front desk. We tell people number one you're missing calls in three ways, and this is true for you as a lawyer.
Speaker 1:There are missed calls period where nobody picks up the phone. Yes, your voice answering service picked it up, but that person really anticipated on speaking with somebody, or they feel like they've got to speak to somebody right now and so they're just going to dial the next number, and so there's missed calls that happen. Then there are mishandled calls where you know, as great as we like to be and been, you know, actually I met your front office person. She's really good, so this would not apply to her. I can, I know this, but in most, in most offices, there would be this mishandled call where you know what.
Speaker 1:It depends on, kind of the day that they're having, whether the calls are going to be friendly and greeted correctly and handled correctly. And it's kind of dependent upon is you know Susie, who shows up today when she answers calls? Is it going to be a good day for Susie or a bad day for Susie? And if it's a bad day for Susie, it's a bad day for everybody who calls our office, and so there's mishandled calls in that regard. So there's missed calls, there's mishandled calls and then at the same time, there's just missed opportunities where somebody calls in and Susie answers the phone and Susie doesn't like invite them to book an appointment and so, you know, or you know, doesn't quite answer the questions correctly in that regard, and so there's these missed appointments.
Speaker 1:And so what we've done is we've been able to train an AI voice who will basically be there at all times, 24-7. Basically be there at all times, 24-7. By the way, even if two people were calling the phone number at the same time, which Susie can't do and answer the phone simultaneously. But our voice AI system answers the phones simultaneously, regardless of how many calls are coming in, and 24-7, and then is properly trained and the training is progressive. So that means that if call is mishandled in some way or another, that it's immediately corrected for the very next call and we don't have to worry about that going forward. So it's a one-time correction.
Speaker 1:Ai is not perfect. It's never going to be perfect, but it'll be a progressive learning system to where you know, eventually it'll be at that 99 percent place. So that's what we do. We provide that automatic patient connector where we're helping podiatrists book more appointments on their calendar, follow up with insurance needs and everything else that the front end assistant is needing to do for other higher level, money producing activities in the office, especially since it's usually just doctor and front office assistant. So yeah, that's the podiatry mindset.
Speaker 2:It's cutting edge. I was telling Scott before we went live that we're seeing this in legal. I've listened to demos. I've seen demos. It is scary. You said it's not 100% and that's true, but it is scary, real. It can be really good and it's not going to be the right solution for everybody, but it's going to be a great solution and we are not far off from that. Again, at the Great Legal Marketing Summit, we'll have vendors who can show you their voice AI, front desk work. Well, dude, look, this has been fun, as always. If someone wants to find out more about you and I don't know if you want to give away your book or let them see it I'm not even sure what your offer is, but that's a really smart guy and it would be good to at least see what he's doing. And so tell us, tell our listeners, where they can go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean listen, if you think I can serve you in some way or another, you can reach out to me at membership. Multiplierscom is my website. But more than anything, I do have some books available on Amazon and you can go look me up, scott Whitaker, uh, on Amazon. I've got uh. Ben, I've got uh. My goal is is four books this year. So, uh, high ticket events is off to my editor right now. High ticket marketing is also off to my editor, so those should be produced, uh, before the end of this year. High ticket retention is coming out soon and then I'm going to do a book on high ticket masterminds, which I asked Dan Kennedy. I said, dan, I said what books do you know of that exists out there on, you know, successfully filling and leading and managing high ticket masterminds? And he said I don't know of any. And so I said, well, that's the book I'm going to write then, and so I'm sure Ben will be mentioned many times over inside the book there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, the whole book thing. So we just published a long term disability book just for doctors, and it was and my insiders have seen this but the total book was quote unquote. Total book was quote unquote, written based upon recordings of actual conversations, of course, anonymized by human beings, anonymized by human beings. But I've seen Scott's process and so, like 20 years ago, we had to sit down and start typing.
Speaker 2:It was a dark and stormy night, and so, again, the principle here is he's getting things, he's getting tools out into the world that not only can the end user read and then want to get in contact with Scott, but he's giving them to guys like me to go oh here, here's a book that might be interesting for you, right, and so it's just brilliant. And again, I know Scott's not spending millions of dollars to build his business, he's just being very smart about this and he's hooked himself. He's also, last point, he's made himself the center of attention for a lot of interesting entrepreneurs who are renegades, who are building practices and consulting organizations, and so that's another lesson as well. And so even I would suspect the mastermind book, because one of our recommendations, if you're not in one, you should probably even just start one if for no other reason, just to build your community in your local area. So it all works together, my friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, buddy, it does. So thank you, and thank you for all that you've done. I've learned a number of of you know principles and things, and I was just again, before we got started, I was telling Ben about, uh, how his health journey has impacted me and, uh, I share that publicly in the regards that you know you shared. You were very open about open about your journey with your heart procedure and everything and just modeling that and really made me begin to think some of my own decisions and so it made that journey myself to get healthy, and so publicly, ben, I appreciate that as well.
Speaker 2:You've got a number of races both accomplished and on the calendar. So that's awesome, especially as we get older. You know, it's just having these challenges that you can put on a calendar, whether it's an event or something like a race or refereeing a game or whatever it just gives you. Kennedy told me recently because I very last thing, I was talking to Dan about next stage of life, because we're doing a bunch of conversations preparing for his talk at the summit and, um, my interview of him at the summit and he's like if you don't have something to wake up to you, like you will just die, like you will just die. So once the firm is transferred and sold, you know, whenever that happens, like if you don't have something, he's like you could just go do, you could go do pro bono work or something. You gotta have something to wake up to every day. That's right and you are, you're modeling that, my friend.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you man it's always good to catch up with you. Likewise, thank you for the opportunity.
