%20(5).png)
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
I am more convinced than ever that nothing that traditional bar organizations are doing is going to move the needle on the sad stats on lawyer happiness ...
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Dinosaurs Aren't Extinct—And Neither Is Direct Mail Marketing
Is direct mail dead? Not if Justin Miller has anything to say about it.
In this episode of The Renegade Lawyer Podcast, Ben Glass sits down with Justin Miller, founder of Jurassic Marketing, to talk about how physical mail (yes, the kind you can hold) still dominates relationship-building and referrals. From monthly newsletters to dinosaur-themed campaigns that convert, Justin shares what's working in 2025—and why small law firms should be doubling down on mail, not running from it.
Plus, they get into:
- Referral marketing secrets
- Justin’s time management strategies using EOS
- The surprising origin story of the Jurassic brand
- Why your mailman might be more valuable than your email list
🎧 Listen now on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
it started as a random theme for a direct mail presentation for genius network. Everyone thinks dinosaur is extinct and I saw it worked like, okay, let's push it even further. All right, let's do the book. And uh, every time I kept going further, I kept getting better response. So, uh, we went all in and we have dinosaur fossils in our office real fossils now Our trade show booth, when floor space allows, is quite the spectacle. We are actually going to lead and change the name over to Jurassic Marketing. I have never seen a brand connect as well as the dinosaurs have, because literally there is not two days that go by that someone does not email me, text message me or tell me about something dinosaur related. So we have owned that headspace.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, this is Ben. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast. This is an interview episode. Those of you who've been listening know that we're also beginning to publish the audio edition of Renegade Lawyer Marketing via the podcast for free for everybody. Today I have on the call and on the podcast my friend, justin Miller.
Speaker 2:Justin is the head of a company called Jurassic Marketing, which is interesting. We'll talk about that. If you came to the summit last year, there was a big inflatable dinosaur that you get your picture taken with, and because Justin deals in the dinosaurs, marketing of direct mail and things that show up that are physical in the mailbox, which is my favorite media and the media that I fight for all the time in each of my two companies, and so we're going to talk about that a bit. But then we're also going to talk about we're going to get into just Justin's habits, his time. He's running a business this is one of several he's built over the years. A very busy guy, gets the conferences, all the things that a lot of lawyers are doing. But I think that there's a lot to learn really, justin, about how you manage your team, manage your time, get stuff done. You've got, I think, three children. So boom, you're one of us, my friend, all right.
Speaker 1:I'll take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank you again. Justin will be at the Great Legal Marketing Summit in October. It's at Dulles Airport. Dan Kennedy will be at the Great Legal Marketing Summit in October. It's at Dulles Airport. Dan Kennedy will be there. If you're in our mastermind groups, there's also going to be a special luncheon at the end of the conference, a private luncheon with Dan. So it's going to be really, really good and Dan coming there has generated a bunch of interest because Dan doesn't speak a ton anymore and he doesn't speak. This will be the only lawyer group he speaks at. And that's really how you and I got connected. You know, you and I have our roots, I guess, back in the Dan Kennedy world. I don't know if you were in the direct marketing space or.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't start there. I was going to say Jurassic Marketing probably doesn't exist, were it not for Dan Kennedy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about that for a few moments. Justin, what is your journey through the discovery of direct response, marketing of direct mail? How did you find it?
Speaker 1:I was going to say so it would go back to when I was quite, quite young, under 20 years old, in my first what I call real business. And my first real business was a wedding and event disc jockey and production company and we were doing high-end weddings. I was at the age of 15, which is a story for another day about when you show up as a 15-year-old to do a wedding. But I ran across a guy named Dave D, which may be a familiar name to some people on the podcast here listening. Dave was kind of a disciple of Dan I'll call him and eventually had mentioned Dan Kennedy's name enough times that I sought out Dan Kennedy and ended up on Planet Dan, as we call it. But Dave had taught me my very first piece of direct mail marketing as well, and that was print client newsletters Tactic I still use to this day and still one of my favorites, actually as closest for guaranteed response as anything.
Speaker 1:But I was sending out monthly print newsletters like literally out of a basement of a townhouse I was living in with my brother at the time. I remember my mother helping me stuff envelopes with newsletters and we'd send out like 200 at a time. That was, I think someone told me like if you're going to do it, you got to have at least 200. It's good advice. So, like my grandmother was getting it and stuff to get the list count up, but you start where you're at. So I sent that, for I had that company for 20 years, so almost 20 years in addition to other marketing, and that kind of made me famous in that niche.
Speaker 1:So when we went to facilities where we performed I would walk in with setup crew and every other vendor was on my mailing list and they would come up and mention something from the newsletter about my family or life outside of work and it really helped build relationships.
Speaker 1:So I'm not an exceeding extrovert or anything. If you catch me in the conference hall at the upcoming event when I'm in the booth I will have my spiel, but if you catch me in a networking session I'm going to find a tighter knit piece of people and stay there. So the newsletter really helped me deepen those relationships at scale, I guess, which is the key there. That's what started me down that path. And then I got real deep in the marketing weeds and kind of direct response, marketing and psychology of marketing and response, of marketing and response. And, ultimately, when we started the marketing agency, it was originally called Profit 911 Consulting, which you still might bump across the name occasionally today, and it was a digital marketing agency. Our specialty was multi-channel, complex follow-up systems built into your CRM automations, which at the time, were much more difficult to build out than they are now.
Speaker 2:You have been a long-time certified partner with Infusionsoft or Keep. You and I go way back in the Infusionsoft world. I'm sure we were one of the first couple.
Speaker 1:And I didn't realize I was by the way. But yeah, I believe I was in kind of that first year or two span for them is when I came on and we're still a certified partner today, but we really just use that for our own knowings of what's going on. So Profit Night One started as digital. I started selling into the industry I knew best and teaching people what I did, Not just newsletters but the email type within text message, marketing and timed postcards and everything else to build out multi-channel for really every step of a client journey, from lead to repeat and referral.
Speaker 1:And yes, there were repeats in the wedding business, which is always interesting. But yeah, we taught that and we just kind of morphed over the years and probably about five years into Profit911's journey. We became a provider of direct mail because we were teaching it so much that logically there's a question of OK well, can you help me with that? And, coming from Dan Kennedy world, everything he teaches is, from a production standpoint, kind of a pain in the butt. That's what causes it to get response.
Speaker 2:By the way, Having to explain to vendors who are otherwise selling postcards or something like that why yours looks so different, has so much copy on it and in what you're really trying to do and trying to just say to vendors go do it my way and just don't even ask any questions. Right, that's probably what you ran into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and beyond that. So now that I know the other side of it, the machinery in the industry is not actually built to do what Dan is teaching to do. You would inject chaos into a streamlined facility. We built this thing from the ground up, fumbled our way through it to do at scale things that were taught to increase response. That's been our niche and what caused it to grow and ultimately, at the end of the day, we shut down digital marketing a couple years back. Not because it's not effective it certainly is but for us we were getting better response for our clients with the direct mail pieces we were implementing. It was less competitive as a provider of it because there's barrier to entry. Digital marketing. If I know my stuff and I have a laptop, I'm in.
Speaker 2:Even if you don't know your stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, if you learn how to pretend and say and that's a problem in all marketing spaces, by the way but a lot of people can sell themselves, but then can't help you sell your service, can't help you sell your service. So yeah, we ultimately just saw explosive growth on the direct mail side and fumbled our way through and building something that, unbeknownst to us, is pretty unique in the space to be able to put out the type of product we do at a decent scale. I mean, by the scale of direct mail world, we're a very tiny shop. By the scale of entrepreneur world, we're a decent business, a large, small business, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're doing work for Great Legal Marketing and for Ben Glass Law. Give us some idea of sort of the breadth of the type of companies and services or products they provide that you are supporting with your genius and the ability to actually produce and get into the mailbox direct mail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're a mixed bag provider for client types, so we have a lot of diverse. Now I'll say we kind of have our niche and our specialty we like, and that's professional service companies. So obviously legal falls in there, right. But we have accountants and tax people and all kinds of atypical users of direct mail and at that there's smaller businesses. So our sweet spot is really kind of the five to 50 employee mark and most people in that space, myself included, I would fit that metric.
Speaker 1:We aren't buyers of this particular service. It's an anomaly for us to be using direct mail and we would be a pain, a fly on the back of a traditional mail house that's putting out millions of pieces a day. But yeah, we serve a variety of professional services. Uh, the types of pieces we do. If you want some kind of tactical, uh, we have a few that are our bread and butter.
Speaker 1:Obviously, newsletters, um, we do referral campaigns but a bit of a unique twist on it, we actually do campaigns to get referral sources, not the referrals themselves. Um, so a bit of weird twist that no one comes asking for. But once we explain the psychology, do campaigns to get referral sources, not the referrals themselves? Yes, so a bit of weird twist that no one comes asking for. But once we explain the psychology, oh yeah, that's worth a lot more and then we will chase clients, cases, whatever. That's the hardest, most expensive thing to make work.
Speaker 1:But it is a part of direct mail and we have some assorted people that don't fit our mold, that we do some e-commerce and some advertisements for online storefronts and then the only other thing that's not quite directly direct mail but it's related. So we do it as like shock and awe type fulfillment, like assembly and kitting of these weird boxes that you've learned about and getting those warehoused and out the door at a scale that makes sense for the type of company that I just mentioned, because you're not going to take up 10,000 square feet in a warehouse somewhere. You're going to take up like one rack. So we've built to be able to accommodate that and put stuff out day by day.
Speaker 2:You may not even know this, but Jurassic Marketing is putting together a program and getting some experts together, and my topic is going to be referral marketing through direct mail. Like we've developed in the law firm pretty robust systems for showing up every single month now through a variety of ideas, all delivered by the postman, to be able to stay in front of our referral sources, and so that's going to be a fun conversation because I think we're doing things that would interest a lot of small biz owners, because it's not the same thing every month and it's thinking about, okay, what would be interesting? What would be interesting, what would be interesting? Boom, let's do it. Small lists, right, but highly effective for us, highly effective return on our investment of our time. Hey everyone, this is Ben again, just butting in here.
Speaker 2:If you don't already have a copy of my book Renegade Lawyer Marketing, you're really missing an opportunity to help your firm grow. This book is 300 pages of very practical advice for those of us who are running solo and small firms and who are not spending tens of thousands of dollars or $100 million on advertising At Ben Glass Law, over 80% of our new leads start because a human being has mentioned our name and in this book, brian and I share the secrets that make this possible. Now you can get the book over at Amazon, but if you do, you're going to miss out on three really terrific bonuses that are only available when you order the book from renegadelawyermarketingcom. Number one you're going to get our ultimate referral letter. This is the exact letter that we've used to drive referrals both from lawyers and other professional practice owners, including healthcare providers in our case, and has helped us accomplish our financial and growth goals.
Speaker 2:Second, you're gonna get our intake success system, because what good is it to drive more cases to get more leads if you don't have a system and a person and a script for answering the phone when they do call? The intake success system is a complete course that will help you and your team convert more leads. And finally, you're gonna get the notes from the latest Great Legal Marketing Summit. These are 100 pages of notes and slides from all of the speakers at our last summit. And again, none of these bonuses are available on Amazon. Finally, if you like, after you buy the book, you'll be able to get on a 20-minute strategy call with either Brian or me. What we're really good at is helping you figure out what's the best use of your next dollar and your next hour in building the perfect practice to serve your life. So go over to renegadelawyermarketingcom, pay shipping and handling and order your book today.
Speaker 1:And I was able to see in that room it did, tried it on a different audience, saw it worked, like, okay, let's push it even further. All right, let's do the book. And I, every time I kept going further, I kept getting better response. So we went all in and there's a video on our website, jurassicmarketingcom. It should be on the main page, but you'll see we have some humor. We have dinosaur fossils in our office, real fossils. Now Our trade show booth, you know when floor space allows, is quite the spectacle.
Speaker 1:But we made the decision roughly, Um, but we made the decision roughly. Uh, I think it's less than a year old right now where we were actually going to lead and change the name over to Jurassic marketing. Um, I'm still the legal side of you, I'm still waiting on the trademark, as long as no one objects before this thing's out live. We should be through that process now. But, um, no, it's branding and it was a byproduct of something else. So Dan Kennedy would still be proud. But I have never seen a brand connect as well as the dinosaurs have, because literally there is not two days that go by that someone does not email me, text message me or tell me about something dinosaur related. So we have owned that headspace. Those referral sources and relationships are probably more valuable than the clients themselves Now short term. Obviously they don't directly produce the cash, but at the end of the day, if I'm picking and choosing, that's the relationship I care about.
Speaker 2:For can send three to five to seven for us. Three to five to seven cases or clients a year, that's fabulous. And then if you look at, you know what we'll quote unquote spending to get their attention and keep their attention. The ROI is, is, is immense.
Speaker 1:Well, that's just it. So the our downfall? By it's postage it's expensive, right. So our downfall, it's postage, it's expensive, right, it's real media, and that's the counterpoint to it is that we have to chase something that's worth chasing and absolutely, if someone can refer five cases a year into perpetuity or retirement, I mean there's almost no dollar amount. That doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:And Kenny taught us years ago that when postage goes up we should cheer because other businesses or competitors will just cut back. It's much easier to send an email than it is to put together an eight-page full-color newsletter. That goes out and we're like, yay, somebody else just stopped sending newsletters. Do most people find you because of your? They sort of find you through the Kennedy or through the direct marketing world. They're searching. They have discovered everything you've already described about how hard it is to go to a kind of a standard vendor who doesn't want to work on these quantities, wonders why you're printing the text that you want. Is that how a lot of people are finding you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the majority still do. We do our own cold marketing as well, but just like the marketing we do for others. It's the hardest, most expensive chore but it is an accelerant for growth, obviously. So we do put money elsewhere, but absolutely because our hurdle as a service provider is also a bit of the value proposition challenge. So if you haven't been exposed to this message of direct mail, then this is where my dinosaurs come in. You think it's extinct and nobody uses it. And that's very hard to even get the opportunity to have a discussion around that bullet if someone's mind is already closed to it. So yeah, a lot of our people have heard tidbits of something they want and they've gone hunting or they've just flat out asked a referral from someone and you know if it's I like to say if it's Planet Dan plus maybe one and a half rings around it. You know we're pretty well known in there.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. Yeah, you're very popular in that space. You know, one of the objections I hear when I talk to lawyers about print newsletters is it's very hard to track. I don't know, I spend X dollars sending and I've got guys and gals who send 10 or 15,000 pieces a month. It's rare, that's the extreme. But true believers who get all their money back by. They tell us the beginning of the second quarter of the year in referred cases, their money back by. They tell us the beginning of the second quarter of the year in referred cases. But what do you say to the potential customer of yours who says how do I track this? Yeah, first off it is hard to track.
Speaker 1:There are some things. We have them keep in mind. So I'll come back to the newsletter specifically, but I'll go in general on direct mail first. As direct response marketers, we want attribution for everything and exact as possible with this many dollars in, this many dollars out. Therefore, we track with the tools available to us tracking phone numbers, qr codes, tracking URLs but guess what? People still just go to Google.
Speaker 1:The studies on this are showing between 40 and 50% of the response is going to go their own route. They're going to go online. Basically is what's going to happen? Hopefully you have a good online presence because they're still going there from your direct mail. So that's, that's a metric number. And then, of course, in the newsletter, yeah, but if you're doing enough quantity to where it matters, if you're doing 500 pieces like OK, anecdotally, you get a couple of referrals and cases. You know you're set. But if you're at a scale of doing 10,000, this matters a lot more.
Speaker 1:And then you should have tracking phone numbers, call recording URLs. And it's quite interesting to me because we do that for clients and we do audit every once in a while some of the calls and whatnot. And it's amazing, we had a PT, a physical therapy practice, and we were tracking theirs and it's amazing how many of their current patients were calling the phone number off the newsletter. I mean, it shouldn't be as a provider of it, but also you would think this person already has that office number saved in their cell phone and we just proved that wasn't true. Like the newsletter made them think of it now.
Speaker 1:And not only that, but they didn't have it saved, they didn't call it, they called the number in front of them off the newsletter. So some of it's like, okay, that wasn't a new patient for them, right, but was it a lost one if someone else sent the advertisement, I don't know. So you track with the tools you have available. You should see a response off those alone. But you also have to be aware of channel bleed elsewhere and every media has it and every media is getting harder to track these days with all the tech hurdles and privacy and everything else.
Speaker 2:Right. So you know we have that same challenge, but you know we combine the automation of tracking from the digital space with human beings who can ask good questions. Yeah, justin, pretty robust law firm and really over 80% of our money comes. That journey starts because someone mentioned a human being, mentioned my name or Brian's name or the law firm's name. They may then go, of course, to the digital properties, but it begins with a name and the other thing, it begins with a human being mentioned our name.
Speaker 2:The other thing that we track pretty carefully is, just like year over year, dollars, pure dollars in in from from referrals obviously, and so and so, yes, we sent a bunch of newsletters, bunch of print, and it is hard Like, excuse me, did this client come because we sent a newsletter to this person over here?
Speaker 2:Hard to tell. But every year, like, really, our percentage of dollars from referrals stays solid, increases, I mean, you know, almost 100%. And we spend zero, virtually zero dollars on advertising per se, on buying digital ads, buying any sort of cold traffic in any way, shape or form. We spent a lot of time training the human being, hiring the right human being, having a great sales team in place and then getting this mailed monthly eight-page newsletter out every single month which has contributions from many of our team members. Very little about the legal side, much about families and living life big and that sort of stuff, and so we're true believers and a lot of our Great Legal Marketing members are true believers. Well, let me switch now to your hat as entrepreneur, founder, owner, running I don't know how many people you have quote under roof at Jurassic.
Speaker 1:We're a 10 employee company right now 10 employees.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's cool. And so you're a busy guy, You've got a family. So let's talk about Dan Kenney, and I released last year the no BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs book. You raised your hand. You said that you're using some of those. I'm sure you've got your own strategies. How do you keep your life straight?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I have pretty strict boundaries here and there's a reason for it and it goes back to that little bit of origin story that I shared with you, being in the special event business, and that's because guess what? That's a Saturday business, it's operate office full time during the week and work weekend events, and that was fine until, like you know, wife and children come into play and stuff and then that becomes a much more difficult equation. But even back in that business I made it work and we were fighting a bit of the celebrity built up Not that I am a celebrity, but we certainly acted like it for marketing purposes, right, but I was able to make that work to where we had others in play. There there's systems. I'm a systems guy. There should be no surprise, going down the digital marketing path, that I like systems and structure'm a systems guy. There should be no surprise, going down the digital marketing path, that I like systems and structure and everything like that. Um, direct mail is much more difficult than digital because, but, uh, good people are probably number one, but it's good people supported by good systems. So if you want a very, a very tactical in that business, you know we got to the point where there was essentially an acting general manager on the weekend. No staff had my cell phone except them and they didn't dare call it Because, guess what, there was nothing I could do on Saturday to help them with whatever was going on. So I got the report on Monday and we made that work quite successfully.
Speaker 1:And this business I've intentionally built that even further. I think everyone can get my cell phone now. But this is how many times it's been called Scheduling wise. You've probably heard it before. You've taught it before. I don't take inbound calls. I mean, there's a couple of reasons for it. Initially it was just because of the positioning. Now it's because you really don't want to talk to me, Like I'm not the person that knows how to do what you want here. Out of 10 people, I'm the least qualified to answer most of the questions here.
Speaker 2:We are visionaries, not detailed.
Speaker 1:Yes I was just going to mention I believe you guys run on EOS, as do we, and I am in the visionary seat. You do not want me in operations. That doesn't mean I'm an idiot about it, you know. I walk out there and suggest improvements by all means, and I'll sit in some meetings, but that's not my role here. So role clarity of who's supposed to do what systems, of how to handle anomalies you know I have a pretty good staff. They all want to build for every possible anomaly. I'm like no, let's just get the core ones and if it's a real anomaly we'll deal with it.
Speaker 1:Email is kind of the same as phone for me. Like, I get a fair amount of emails, I will check them on my cell phone. So this is kind of the only boundary cross into my life. Otherwise, when I leave for home like I'm at home but I do like scrolling social media and looking through my emails, I don't respond to most of them. I forward them to whoever needs them here. I could put an executive assistant in that place. I've chosen not to. There's just not enough flow that it matters. Most of them are going where they're supposed to to start with and then it's just building out a lot of structure. So right now. And then it's just building out a lot of structure, so right now.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm very Google calendar driven, like it tells me to show up here, I show up here. I'm pretty hard to schedule with in advance right now, like not intentionally, it's just full. So I work about 20 hours a week in the office. I drop my kids off at school right around 7.40 am and I come to the office. I'm here by 8. I leave at 2.15 to go pick up the kid that gets out of school first, and then I'm home, and then Tuesdays and Thursdays I'm home all day. So all those home things that people typically have to do on the weekends that's Tuesday and Thursday for me, you know mow the lawn, go to the barber, buy stuff. You know, whatever it takes, the actual life, portion of life happens in those days and it's much less stressful being a direct mail provider as opposed to a wedding provider, because you know it's not. There's nothing uncorrectable here, it's not there's nothing uncorrectable here.
Speaker 1:Right, you have deadlines, but that's probably the major stressor, like this yeah, I've pushed the culture I learned from the events world, by the way, like I believe events people are good hires for almost any organization. You know they can work under pressure and whatnot, um, but I try and bring that sense of urgency in here. There is not 400 people outside the doors that are going to come in at one hour, but can we act like there is? You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:That's very cool. Do you use any sort of software to track projects or accountability within Jurassic Marketing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so behind the scenes there's a few softwares. We're a Google-based shop, so email and calendars are Google. We use Teamwork for project management teamworkcom. We have a specialty print production type thing. On that side. Most industries have their little specific niche products and software providers. And then, specific to the EOS side, we use 90, and everyone tracks their ROCs, as they're called. They're big priorities for the quarter in there as well. So there are a few softwares in play which can get a little overwhelming as well. I can have tasks and appointments in any of those three, but they are all linked together there.
Speaker 2:Are you all working with an EOS implementer?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, that's the only way we can. I've been aware of EOS for I don't know five, 10 years. I think Adam Witte kind of introduced the book Rocket Fuel to the magnetic marketing world at one point. But yes, I saw a contact I was aware of became an implementer and I'm like, okay, here we go.
Speaker 2:So we're recording this in May of 2025. I could guess how old you are, but I'm curious about, like your vision of you. Know, what are you building? What do you want this Cause? I know you talked about this in your EOS at least your annual retreat right. What do you want this thing to look like in five years?
Speaker 1:Yep, we have our goals. So in the EOS world is like the 10 year goal right? We we overachieved and made it a seven-year goal just because we're crazy like that. We're on a growth mission, we are, and there's a couple of reasons for it. We're at a bit of a dangerous scale right now where we're at Again, we're building out our shop to accommodate all this weird stuff like weird. It's not in marketing world, but it is in general marketing world, not in direct response, but it is in general. So we're reinvesting a lot of resources right now to build for growth. Honestly, we're going for 10x growth from when we started that journey. We have a couple plans to get there. There's a couple major pivots along the way, so it's not more of the same. I don't believe more of the same gets you there. I also just don't believe in steady operation that doesn't grow. As an entrepreneur visionary, that sounds awful to me. So we're growth focused.
Speaker 2:Today. Are you in any groups, mastermind groups? You mentioned a couple in the I guess, kennedy and Russell Brunson world. Are you in actively in any mastermind groups? Or you mentioned a couple in the, I guess, kennedy and Russell Brunson world. Are you in actively in any of these groups?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm on a bit of a hiatus this year. This comes with some of those boundaries of personal versus work. I am in the Triple Gold Crown program with Pete Lillo and Ron Sheets. Both of you will know that's my remaining mastermind at the moment. I've spent some time over in Genius Network World. I'm on a hiatus from that at the moment but definitely know the folks over there, and that's about it right now. For this year there were times though, I was trying to be active in upwards of three masterminds with in-persons, and I'm a huge in-person guy.
Speaker 2:I really don't like virtual masterminds we're very similar in that regard, both in how you described yourself earlier in terms of, like, fun on stage, fun behind the booth, the social event, like not not my jam either, frankly, for in most cases I'm the introvert and there can be a point of overwhelm. There's a point where there's more information out there I could go get more information, but it's actually not the lack of information that's holding us back from whatever growth we're trying to get to. It is right people, right systems and now let's go and get it. And we have found being very clear on what it is we actually want. It's interesting because Brian and I talk about growth and 10X and 5X and we go well, here's what the dollars would be.
Speaker 2:But the reality is, what we want to really secure and insure is our lifestyle. Because, for lawyers, want to really secure and insure is our lifestyle. Because for lawyers, we have a really good lifestyle, like we're not working nights and weekends, we make good money, we've got a great team, things run smooth. Like let's not mess that up while we. It's almost, it's almost unstoppable the growth we have because we've been in the community for so long, because we do so much quality human being to human being type marketing, right, but we don't want to mess up the lifestyle that we have. He's coaching his kids. I've got nine grand, almost eight grand kids another one on the way shortly here and we just love going um, you know, to watch their sporting events now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, from that aspect I am super pleased with the business, as is you know. But there is some stability with the growth and I, my job I get to do is the fun things and I like that and I keep looking for fun things. So you know, you ask me about masterminds and they are marketing ones that I'm in and they are marketing ones that I'm in. But if I'm going to conferences example, I just got back from National Postal Forum, which sounds like a blast, right, that was the necessary seeing what's going on in the world and feeling humbled by the size of mega players in our industry. But on the other side, I took our boys to IAPA last year, which is the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, because I'm looking for customer experience and dinosaur stuff. So we have fun.
Speaker 2:I'm curious, now that you mentioned the National Postal Forum, what are the big players? What are they concerned about in the United States? Economy? Postage, US Postal Service, things like that, Like what keeps them up at night?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there's uncertainty in the air and there has been for a couple of years now. Right, we're raising prices every six months. The people that are at very large scale like mailing millions and millions and millions of pieces. This becomes very detrimental very quick. There are national players who you receive mail from that it's way less than 1% response and it's successful at that. But there's not a lot of slack. So they are driving fractions of a penny out of their costs per piece and thank God I'm not in that game and not serving that market Because we have a little margin to play with because of the anomalies of the pieces, right. So they're looking at squeezing every fraction and that sometimes means like they have their own semi trucks driving mail from Illinois to Florida because they can get that portion cheaper there than the postal service can.
Speaker 1:Which the entrepreneur in me is like why can't the largest player, the government, do it the cheapest? But then I remember I said the word government. Right, they're playing with the post office is incentivizing people to play with different technologies. So this is interesting. So when you're mailing in bulk rate, there's incentive programs and promotions. Believe it or not, there's promotions to you and I like the promotion might be worth $10. It's the larger players, it's thousands, tens of thousands. But they did a promotion on like texture would qualify for it. So if you look in your mailbox right now, you'll probably get some offer from someone that it's like an embossed, it's got like ripples in the envelope. Ok, they probably tested that due to an incentive that offset the cost of doing that Interesting.
Speaker 1:So they're looking at stuff like that. They're always doing split testing. They're at a scale to do it Maybe a topic for another day. Most of the mailings we do are not at statistically significant quantities to do testing. Quantities to do testing. There's ways around that. I did a presentation to Brian Kurtz, his group, about how to conquer or work within these confines. So we're at a disadvantage compared to a massive mailer. Talk a little about the controls. So, for instance, there was I won't give away too much there was a large national donor-based organization, so one of the largest.
Speaker 1:You probably get pieces of mail requesting donations and they're 100% donations and you know they had lost 25% of their ROI. And what was interesting to me is when they would do their donor tests. First off, everyone shares the donor list. Like that's a different world. You can't get the list. They share it with five other big donor charities, right, so they're sharing. But they would hold back 10% of the list and not mail to it. And then they would look at the response rate of the 90% that mailed versus the 10%, because you know what the 10% might have reactivated elsewhere and that was the only way to track that. Um, whereas a lot of people would be like all right, let me send two offers, half here, half there, and that's not actually completely accurate that's very sophisticated, yeah so I mean there's, there's massively in the weeds data and postal people um it's, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:And our friend Brian Kurtz comes from the world of businesses built on the back of direct mail and offers.
Speaker 1:And I will say, though, going back, like the mastermind and where you're at, so, the national postal forum, I got to download all the PowerPoints afterwards, right? So I'm like, hey, team, we got 107 PowerPoints from sessions and they're right. So I'm like, hey, team, we got 107 PowerPoints from sessions and they're like. Okay, I'm like, but guess what, like the ones that I sat in on the 10, I got to see, like it was the discussion in the room that was valuable, not the slides. Like the questions and answers, they weren't recorded. Here's your slides. I'm like, you missed all that. I, you've missed all that. I'll probably send some other people there in my stead next year.
Speaker 2:Well, that is the real value of showing up live to an event and again we're looking forward in October to having you and your team and the dinosaur. Hopefully, bring the dinosaur.
Speaker 1:Oh, Profit Source will be there.
Speaker 2:Great legal marketing summit. Look, justin, if folks want to reach out to you and again, what Justin does and is good at is he understands marketing. And if you've followed me and you know my origins from Kennedy and direct response marketing is of interest to you. So Justin is one of the experts on that. Like it's not just, he will coach you, he will help you. He will help you figure out how to get something effective into the mail so you're not wasting your money. But where should they go, my friend, to find out more? Reach out, maybe get a copy of your book, yeah you can go to jurassicmarketingcom um browse around there.
Speaker 1:Obviously, if you want to speak to someone, you can consult, you can call. You can text the phone numbers right up there. If you do want a copy of the, you can consult, you can call. You can text the phone numbers right up there. If you do want a copy of the book, you can text the number and say hey, send me a free copy of the book. We'll do it, no worries. Just say hey, I heard you on the podcast. My staff is used to dealing with me randomly doing stuff like that, so they won't question it at all.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you tell them I offered a $500 discount, then they're going to come ask me. So you can't try that. But certainly if you want to book in some dinosaur themed gifts, we got those for you. Yeah, just go to JurassicMarketingcom. You can email me, but I will triage it, just like I told you, justin at Profit911.biz or Justin at JurassicMarketingcom and we'll get that to someone that can help you. And, by the way, you did mention we help people with this. I should mention most people don't know exactly what they want. So when they come to us, they're exploring, they're like, okay, I want to grow or I want more referrals, or whatever. The key trigger is at that point that they're doing marketing on and we help them formulate that entire campaign from concept out the door, which is a bit different.
Speaker 2:So if you happen to have something ready to go, we're happy to print it, but not many people do.
Speaker 2:That's not a bit different, that's hugely different, like that's. That's where the real value in the relationship is, because it's like everything you know all this digital marketing stuff is like on all these courses on how to how to build funnels and I respect ClickFunnels world and Russell, but I don't. I, the last thing in the world I want to do is sit down and build a funnel myself like zero, no interest in that, and I got people who do that for me and that's what you do. It's like okay, you don't need to actually have the fully thought out idea of what the piece looks like. But Justin, hey, I want to get more referrals.
Speaker 2:I want to, in our case, reaching out to healthcare providers or reaching out to other lawyers who don't do what we do, and just staying top of mind and having an interesting reason to mail to them, because nobody's getting any mail anymore. I mean, literally the mailman doesn't bring very much stuff in the mail, and so that is just a huge differentiator. When you show up there with something that's interesting, real quick, tell. Just the branding change from Profit 911 to Jurassic Marketing. I could guess what provoked it, but I'm curious about like cause. That would have been a big decision for a company to make who's known under one name. Talk to me about that, and then we'll be yeah we were over five years into the other name.
Speaker 1:Right, it started as a random theme for a direct mail presentation for Genius Network. I said, okay, I'm well aware direct mail is boring. Okay, let's liven this up. So we picked some dinosaurs and we went with the messaging Everyone thinks direct mail is extinct. Everyone thinks dinosaur is extinct.
Speaker 1:I'm a performer as much as offstage I'm not, but I was a DJ hypnotist. I can be on stage and I can see when something connects with the audience. And I was able to see in that room it did, Tried it on a different audience, Saw it worked. Like okay, let's push it even further. All right, let's do the book. And every time I kept going further, I kept getting better response. So we went all in and there's a video on our website, JurassicMarketingcom. It should be on the main page, but you'll see we have some humor. We have dinosaur fossils in our office, real fossils. Now Our trade show booth, when floor space allows, is quite the spectacle.
Speaker 1:But we made the decision roughly I think it's less than a year old right now where we're actually going to lead and change the name over to Jurassic Marketing. I'm still on the legal side of you. I'm still waiting on the trademark as long as no one objects, before this thing's out live. We should be through that process now. But no, it's branding and it was a byproduct of something else, so Dan Kennedy would still be proud. No, it's branding and it was a byproduct of something else, so Dan Kennedy would still be proud. But I have never seen a brand connect as well as the dinosaurs have, because literally there is not two days that go by that someone does not email me, text message me or tell me about something dinosaur related. So we have owned that headspace and when you're looking for it like dinosaurs are pretty far into our society, like they're everywhere.
Speaker 2:Well, and what's really cool is this comes out of a speaking event, right, and just hey, let's try to do something different, and so that's a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got bad ideas too, but that one was good.
Speaker 2:Oh, we all get bad ideas, but like the value of speaking and being able to see in real time response and eyes open up and laughter and things like that. Well, justin, look, this has been fantastic. Thank you, my friend. We look forward to your continued work, both for us as we promote this summit, but then at the summit later on this year in October. And folks, if you're not signed up, that's GLMSummitcom Get your ticket. Dan Kenney is going to be there, justin Miller is going to be there and a whole bunch of really cool people have lined up to want to get on our stage. So it's going to be great. Thanks, man. That's a wrap for today's episode of the Renegade Warrior podcast. If you found this, thank you. Taking control of your legal career, head over to greatlegalmarketingcom. You can also find us on LinkedIn Search for Great Legal Marketing and Benjamin Glass to connect. Stay tuned.
