Empathy and Education: Hidden Barriers in Generational Poverty with Food Bank CEO Michael Coleman

Discover the untold challenges of generational poverty and how it shapes the educational journey of countless children. I'm Dr. Lisa Hassler, and in a heartfelt conversation with Michael Coleman, CEO of Heart of Alabama Food Bank, we peel back the layers of societal norms and hidden barriers that dictate the success or failure of our youth in the classroom. This episode promises to alter your perspective, unpacking how generational poverty affects everything from financial literacy to classroom dynamics.

Embarking on this narrative adventure, Michael Coleman, with his rich background transitioning from military service to nonprofit leadership, brings to light the nuances of poverty that often go unnoticed. We tackle the invisible rules that govern class interactions, and how these unspoken guidelines can inadvertently perpetuate cycles of poverty. It's a candid look at the heart of educational disparities, emphasizing the importance of empathy and tailored interventions that resonate with the reality of those we aim to uplift. 

By the end of this episode, you'll be equipped with new insights into the complex relationship between poverty and education. We'll share inspiring stories of resilience and adaptation, challenging educators and nonprofit workers to grow personally and professionally. Join us in offering a beacon of hope for children whose potential is overshadowed by economic hardship.

Contact Michael Coleman at mscolemanjr@gmail.com or go to his website at mafb.org.

Transcript

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 0:10

Welcome to the Brighter Side of Education. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Hassler, here to enlighten and brighten the classrooms in America through focused conversation on important topics in education. In each episode, I discuss problems we as teachers and parents are facing and what people are doing in their communities to fix it. What are the variables and how can we duplicate it to maximize student outcomes? In this episode, I discuss how child poverty affects educational outcomes. According to the United States Census Bureau, in 2022, the average child poverty rate in the United States is 16.3 percent, with more than half of the states in the South region experiencing rates at 18 percent or higher.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 0:50

Research has widely demonstrated that family income significantly impacts children's educational outcomes, with those from low-income backgrounds often starting school at a disadvantage compared to their wealthier peers. Factors such as the timing and duration of poverty, along with community characteristics, also play a role in educational attainment. Studies such as the impact of poverty on educational outcomes for children review literature concerning the effects of poverty on educational outcomes, focusing on a critical question Can these effects be prevented or reversed? Joining me today to discuss the effects of child poverty in education and how schools and teachers can manage it is Michael Coleman. He is the Chief Executive Officer of Heart of Alabama Food Bank, as well as a United States Armed Forces veteran with more than 30 years of experience in the nonprofit military and residential treatment industries. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Coleman: 1:43

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 1:45

Can you tell us about yourself and how you became involved with the Heart of Alabama Food Bank and providing services to families living in generational poverty?

Michael Coleman: 1:54

Yeah, after I retired out of the military, spent 21 years in the Army and then really kind of devoted myself to some pastoral work and through that really got involved with understanding some of the real challenges that people face. I grew up primarily in the middle class, even though it was lower middle class, but I really saw people just fighting with issues and began to really work to understand why these issues were so difficult to overcome. And so I got into the nonprofit space and through that I came to understand just a whole different world that exists out there. And one of the issues that came up I was a benevolence director at one nonprofit and so many people who came to us for food assistance were saying, oh, I just desperately need a job. And there were so many people saying, oh, like half the people, and we were serving about 450 families a month. Well, I knew lots of people who were desperate for good workers and I was like, okay, there's a lot of people who say they want a job, there's a lot of people who say they need good workers. But you couldn't get those two to link up. So I started a nonprofit that would take people kind of where they are and begin to navigate that space as to why is there a disconnect?

Michael Coleman: 3:08

Because as I began to investigate that and try to learn more about that, I started reading a lot of Ruby Payne's books and not only Ruby Payne, but specifically her book on a framework for understanding poverty and it really just opened up my eyes to recognize that really I was looking at the problem completely from the wrong perspective, which was my perspective, my middle-class perspective of the way things should be.

Michael Coleman: 3:35

Everybody should already see the world as I see the world, and what I found out was I was never going to make any progress with that approach. But because I cared about the people so much, I said, hey, I've really got to invest, and if I've got to make changes to my life or if I have to approach situations differently, what I'm really after is the change, the lifting people out of poverty and empowering them to take control of their life. And so what I found was is I was my worst obstacle and so I had to change first and get of the right mindset, and a framework for poverty was a great starting point for me to begin to just approach this whole problem of generational poverty from a different mindset.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 4:15

Yeah, the first time that I'd actually heard of this framework was at your webinar that I had recently attended. That surprised me. It opened my eyes to a completely different thought process that I had recently attended. That surprised me. It opened my eyes to a completely different thought process that I had never considered before. Can you talk about the framework of understanding poverty?

Michael Coleman: 4:33

Yeah, let me just start off with saying there's a few critics out there of Ruby Payne, because her approach doesn't necessarily deal with all the overarching things that lead to poverty and some of the challenges in society, but that's not what it's designed to do. And the truth of the matter is there's people in that space fighting for how to rid our world of poverty, and that's all well and good, but for you and me, and for the average teacher out there, the question is what do I do when I encounter somebody from generational poverty that has a different perspective, and how do I help them and empower them to be successful and to thrive in life? And that's where I was with this. So, as I began to delve into this issue, what we hear so much about, especially with generational poverty, are racial issues, and, of course, racial issues exist. I'm at the heart of it. I live in Montgomery, alabama. I'm in the heart of the civil rights movement. It's so much part of our history and so much has been done to overcome some of the past injustices. However, what we find is that it's really more of a class problem. Now, in poverty class, you have white poverty, you have black poverty, you have Hispanic poverty and inside of there you will have some cultural things that manifest in different ways, but ultimately there's some governing rules the way that they manifest themselves that are very common. They look different, but if you just look at how they're categorized they're very similar. And then you have middle class, and in her research she has a wealth class and of course, these are people that have homes in other countries, kind of wealth, not just upper middle class.

Michael Coleman: 6:13

But what I discovered is that in each one of these class systems there's a hidden rule system, and so what I talked about in the lecture and when I had the opportunity to share this is I began to say OK, I was born into a world and I had parents who taught me the norms of society. When somebody gave you something, you looked them in the eye and you said thank you, but those rules are not written down anywhere. But your parents teach you, and then, when you went to school, your teacher at school would reinforce those rules. You. And then, when you went to school, your teacher at school would reinforce those rules, and then, if we went to church, our Sunday school leader or our pastor or whatever would again. So all of those systems were working together to reinforce that.

Michael Coleman: 6:53

When you're in a society, this is how you operate with each other that you share. There's rules about share, just all these kinds of things. When you make a mistake or hurt somebody, you apologize and then you forgive people, and this is the world we try to raise our kids up in. Well, what I found was is that each class system has its own set of rules, and one set of rules does not translate to another set of rules, and just that statement alone began to open up my eyes.

Michael Coleman: 7:22

If you were born in generational poverty, you learn how to survive in poverty, you learn what the challenges were, and so you can operate in that world. The problem is is that all the jobs are in the middle class or come with middle class expectations. So if you don't understand how to navigate the middle class, you're ultimately going to run into real challenges and real barriers. So there's problems on both sides, and I'll get into some specifics. But I would talk to a middle class business owner who says, ok, I have 25 people that I employ, so he or she is expecting they hire an employee. They know to come to work on time. They know how to clean up after themselves, they know how to greet customers, they know what's appropriate in the workplace, what humor is appropriate, what humor is not, or what language is appropriate, what language is not. And of course, they're supposed to have a work ethic. I'm paying them. They should be working all the time. They shouldn't be on their phone Just on and on and on.

Michael Coleman: 8:21

Well, a person comes in who doesn't necessarily know any of that, because a lot of those things have no value in poverty, when you're trying to survive from moment to moment, day to day, month to month, and so you're not raised with having things like time emphasized, like it's not important in poverty that you're somewhere on time. That's not emphasized, that's not a value and it's because it has no use. It's not to say that it's not important in poverty that you're somewhere on time. That's not emphasized, that's not a value and it's because it has no use. It's not to say that it's not important, but where you are in your culture and what you're dealing with is what you're going to elevate and make more important, right? So I usually start off by just listing two things to kind of give everybody a place to begin to think in this way, and one is time.

Michael Coleman: 9:07

So in the middle class, we are taught with a future perspective. So if you have past, present and future, we do it with a future perspective. A good example would be our kids. We tell them you need to make good grades. Well, why do you need to make good grades? You don't get benefits from making good grades in the moment, no, but you need to do that to prepare for college. And you're going to college for four years. Well, why are you going to college? You're not going to be making any money at college, but you're preparing. So everything you're doing is into the future. It's short-term pain for the long-term gain, even to the point that we're thinking about well, I want a job with benefits in the event that I get sick, I want a retirement. So when it comes time 40 years from now, I have money for a time. So everything we do, that's the middle-class value.

Michael Coleman: 9:51

Now, in poverty, you're not taught to think into the future, because the future has no value. You only are thinking in the moment. It's about surviving, so you're only focused on the present. You get up in the morning and it's about where's my next meal coming from. You have several fires to fight through, and so you just take them one fire at a time.

Michael Coleman: 10:13

So I used to have people that would come to me and say, can you help me? I'm about to get my electricity turned off. And I'd say, okay, well, when's it going to get cut off? This afternoon and we're like, why did you wait to the last minute? And that was my attitude, like well, it wasn't a priority to you, so why am I going to jump through hoops to help you? Right? But what I didn't realize was well, you know, they may have gotten notified 10 days ago that their power's going to get cut off, but until that event moves into the present, they've never been taught how you think in advance and how you do problem analysis and problem solving to handle problems in the future. Because you have so many right in front of you critical things like how am I just going to survive from day to day? The best way I've been able to help people kind of relate to this a little bit.

Michael Coleman: 11:02

I just say close your eyes and open them up and imagine you're in downtown Paris, France, but you don't speak French and you don't have any money on you and you don't have friends, you don't have this societal safety net to fall back on. So what do you do? You would go. Well, I don't even know where my next meal is going to come from. So let's say you found somebody to either take you in or give you shelter Okay, am I going to get to stay here tonight? And they say, yeah, you can stay here tonight. You're going to get up the next morning and you're going to try to figure out well, how do I move forward, but all you see are barriers. I don't have any money, I don't know how to speak the language, and then all of a sudden it's the next mealtime and you're back to just basic.

Michael Coleman: 11:42

So you see the cycle that you can end up in, right, and that's how so many people in generational poverty, because they see their grandmother, they see their mother, this multi-generational where they've only known poverty Right. So that's very different and I want to make a distinction between generational poverty and situational poverty. And anybody can face situational poverty. So let's say you have a spouse that may be the primary breadwinner and that spouse dies or gets sick and can't work, and then all of a sudden you're used to the nice house and the cars, but now there's not enough money, and so a family may come along and support you and say okay, he or she is going to be sick for a few months, we're going to help pay the bills, but we know you're going to overcome that and then you're going to return to your normal state in life. There is no hill to climb in poverty, because they've only known the chaos of poverty. So in generational poverty, you could pay their utility bill and you could give them $400, or you could give them $4,000. They will still be back in a food line the next month.

Michael Coleman: 12:43

People in the middle class look at them as well. That's incredibly irresponsible and I'm like from our perspective it is. But if you look at it from their perspective, to manage money or to think I'm going to go put this money in the bank so that when the next emergency requires futuristic thinking of which they've never been taught. Ultimately, we in the middle class are looking at people in generational poverty and say we're expecting you to not only know, but to act and live your life in accordance with a set of rules of which you've never even been taught, and that's really unjust and unfair. Regardless of the race, we're expecting people to have a value system based on our rules, not theirs Now do I think middle-class rules are better and are healthier? Absolutely so. When we stand over there, we look at people in poverty and we kind of signal them to say, hey, come over here where we are, this is where the jobs are, this is where the resources are, this is where the relationships are.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 13:40

Right where the resources are.

Michael Coleman: 13:41

This is where the relationships are A lot healthier and we look to where they are and we don't see any barriers. But what opened up my eyes was when I said you know what? I'm going to stop asking people to come to me and I'm going to start off by going to them and starting where they are. So then I started surrounding myself with people like this and I would sit and go OK, if I were you. Here's the resources that I have. How do I move forward?

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 14:04

Right.

Michael Coleman: 14:05

And the truth is, with many of them left to themselves, they had no pathway. So you have people who come along, you have nonprofits, you have people who care about people in poverty, who are trying to lift them and empower them. But it's a struggle because there are so many barriers along the way. One of the barriers I like to talk about is when I started Hope Inspired Ministries, which was a very relational job training program to lift people out of poverty. An example was we had a guy dropped off here. He was in New York and he was dropped off at the Salvation Army and he told me hey, I really want to go to work but I don't have any ID. So we contacted the state of New York. They said, okay, that's $60. Well, he didn't have a nickel in his pocket, so that's a barrier. We gave him the $60 and all the information. We sent it off. A month later he gets his birth certificate. So then we go take him to the social security office to get a social security card. They said, oh, you can't get your social security card without a state ID. So then I took him over to the state ID place and the state ID said you can't get a state ID without a social security card. That's not something middle-class typically is dealing with. Because why? Because we all carry IDs and as soon as something happens to them or we lose them or somebody steals or whatever it is, we go replace them. Our parents help us navigate into this world because it's required to get a social security number right at birth.

Michael Coleman: 15:25

You're given a car to drive to test. I had people that were in 20, 21, 22 years old who didn't have a driver's license and I said why don't you have a driver's license? They said we've never had access to a car that was registered and had insurance for us to go test on and see. That never even dawns on people. And so here's a 20-year-old who's driving a car just like we would going to work, gets pulled over and they walk out of that with $1,000 in fines between no insurance, no registration, no license, and here in Alabama, even though you don't have a license, they suspend your license. So let's say you go get all your court fees paid off.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 16:05

Yeah.

Michael Coleman: 16:06

Then you have to go pay another fee to get your license unsuspended before you can even go test to get your license. I mean, I'm just scratching the surface of barriers that people in generational poverty face and without people who know how to navigate that space and care enough, because it's a messy process and it's difficult and it's emotionally draining when you care about people and you just see there's so many barriers and that is if you get somebody who's motivated, who does want to. You know, there's people that I've dealt with, that I've said look, I can't pour more into you than you're willing to pour into you. Right, my promise to them was we're going to walk alongside of each other and when you get to a barrier that would normally shut you down, my promise to you is I'm going to help you navigate that barrier so that you can continue to walk forward. Right, I'm not going to carry you through the process. I don't want to create dependency. I'm not going to carry you through the process.

Michael Coleman: 17:01

I don't want to create dependency, but I also recognize that there are barriers, that when I look at it through middle class lens, that barrier doesn't exist. When I look at it through a general poverty lens, that barrier is almost insurmountable.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 17:13

Very true, you had different things to look at as well.

Michael Coleman: 17:16

Yes, thank you. So I was taking the time and then combine that with the money perspective. The illustration I used was in middle class we're taught that money is something to be managed. So I used to see my mother sit down years ago with her bills and she would pay all her bills when she got paid and if there was anything left over we might get to go out to eat. I mean, we didn't have a lot of money even when we could pay all the bills. But if she couldn't pay all the bills then we certainly were just going to be, as I say, sucking on green beans for a few weeks. You know it was slim pickings.

Michael Coleman: 17:47

But in poverty, much different thinking. Because the rule as it pertains to money and poverty is money is something to be used and enjoyed. So when you combine that with the perspective of I only live in the present, then somebody who's rents due in a week gets paid, gets a pocket full of money and says I've had a hard week, I'm going to go to the club, I'm going to go wherever, I'm going to enjoy myself, because they're not thinking about a week from now and the responsibilities that come with a week from now. So they then get up and realize, oh, I didn't save my money or I spent my money or I did whatever. Now they're turning to people for help, and it's a cycle, because that's the norm for them and the people in their world. That's the norm is to go from one place to another asking for money.

Michael Coleman: 18:34

Now I've had students and people in my life that have no idea why banks even exist. That's another issue. When we look at payday loan places, they take advantage of vulnerable people who are just like us, when sometimes I'm like, hey, I need to go buy a car, so I need to finance my car, or there's other things that we would finance. Well, when you don't have any credit, you don't even know what a bank's for you don't have a bank account. It's just a whole different world. And so you go to a payday loan place because you need money, like everybody else, and then the interest rate can be 200, 300, 400% by law, to take advantage of people.

Michael Coleman: 19:10

And just to illustrate this real quick, a woman came to our class. She said I borrowed $200 every month and I have to pay back 250 by the end of the month, and so that was $600. And so she did that cycle. She would get borrowed $200, had to pay back $250. Then she turned around, had to borrow $200. And I said so you paid over 12 months. You paid $600 in interest Now, and I came up with an interest rate.

Michael Coleman: 19:32

I said if you could borrow $10,000 at a normal interest rate and pay $600 interest over the year and I was trying to illustrate the difference of what having credit and having access to that versus what so many people in generational poverty they say, well, that's a total ripoff. Well, it is a total ripoff. The reason the interest rates, and I hate it, but it's a principle that there's so much risk associated with lending to people in generational poverty. I still don't like it. I still feel like they're taking advantage of people, but that's where they turn to, because they don't have access to capital, which is another. If you're going to work and you have a tire blowout on the side of the road, you may not have money to get a new tire, you may not have money to have it towed in for a record. So a blown tire for me and you is a call to AAA and some minor inconvenience, a blown tire to them would mean loss of employment, because now they can't get to their work and there's just no resources.

Michael Coleman: 20:27

So again, every issue in life that we look at from a middle class, that we just oftentimes take for granted, it is an obstacle in poverty that people can't overcome. So in poverty you're going to have more stress, you're going to have more chaos and especially for teachers in the classroom, the children of that chaos is going to be affected in how they respond to authority, how they talk to each other, the language they use. All of that is rolled up into that.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 20:53

So now, what academic behavior is commonly seen in classrooms that may be influenced by the generational poverty mindset?

Michael Coleman: 21:01

Yeah. So if you think about middle class, middle class is with exceptions, and all these rules have exceptions, of course, but it's primarily patriarchal.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 21:12

Right.

Michael Coleman: 21:13

And generational poverty is matriarchal. So when you have a young boy who is raised up in that, maybe even with a loving, caring mother, but if he's used to the authority coming from his mother, he gets in a public environment, maybe a male teacher, whatever and lots of times there's a lot of fear. One of the things about generational poverty is there's so much emphasis on the relationship of the community and being accepted within the community, because again, that's where the resources are. Somebody in your community may lend you the money. I can't go to the bank. We can't be isolated like we do in the middle class, where you just kind of own an aisle and you're self-sufficient. That doesn't exist. So you have to maintain the community relationships so you don't want to have behavior that's that risk putting you on the outside of the community. So if a teacher calls you out, instead of just saying yes, ma'am, especially with young men, they feel like they've got to defend themselves and then they start going down that path of back and forth. There's no turnoff for them. They're like you blew this situation way out of control. I just told you to stop or to get off your phone. But it's received from a whole different perspective, oftentimes from the student himself. And underneath all that and you see this too, like sometimes maybe you've seen it in the movies where you get on a kid and he just kind of laughs it off, shrugs it off lots of times because they don't know how to respond One of the things we need to remember in the middle class we typically have a formal register and a casual register.

Michael Coleman: 22:47

So if I'm on a job interview or if I'm dealing with customers or whatever, I'm going to talk as I'm talking now, I'm trying to use proper English. It's challenging, as that is for folks from Montgomery. We're trying to use proper English, but when I'm sitting around with a bunch of guys watching the football on the weekend, I don't care if my verbs match my subject, you know, and those kinds of things. So it's a casual register used a lot of slang In generational poverty. There is no formal register. They only know the casual register. So what ends up happening? They go on a job interview.

Michael Coleman: 23:16

They may drop an F-bomb because that's the only language they know, or they may drop that to a teacher and then teachers are like I cannot believe you said that, but it's the only language they know. Again, it doesn't make it okay. I'm not saying it's okay, nor am I saying that it should not be dealt with. But before we get too outraged at it, we have to understand where that student lives, what they're a part of daily and what they may be trying to come out of, and just understand what their starting point is and that it's. Not I'm trying to attack the teacher or I'm trying to dominate the teacher.

Michael Coleman: 23:50

They don't know how to cope with the emotions of fear. They don't have any coping mechanisms. For I haven't eaten in two days. But how do I articulate that to a teacher? Because even though everybody in the room may be in poverty, I'm going to get laughed at if I haven't eaten in two days, and they're going to make fun. So there's just all of these things going on that we can't see because we think we look at the student oh, you're like me, you should know better than that. You should know better than that. And lots of times it's just it's a bunch of assumptions on our part that we have to take the time to gently begin to teach them and coach them and love them, but with accountability. I'm a big accountability person. But you've got to start with empathy and compassion, as if they don't know anything, and begin to teach them and help them navigate and put boundaries up as to what's acceptable and what's not.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 24:44

Right, educate them on those different registers, and so then they have those skills to be able to go in between environments more fluidly. But if you don't know that that isn't there, then that's not something that you're willing to start to do, because you assume that they're just not using it and that they do have those skills.

Michael Coleman: 25:01

Exactly.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 25:01

So that's a very different place. You know the not knowing and the purposefully not choosing to use 100% Very different.

Michael Coleman: 25:08

That's exactly. You said it very well.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 25:10

And some of those other academic behaviors like difficulty following directions, consistently disorganized laugh when disciplined and unwillingness to ask for help. Those are some things that may be frustrating to a teacher, like disrespectful behavior or vocabulary and language.

Michael Coleman: 25:28

Well, I'll try to give you a good example. There's no self-talk in generational poverty. Okay, so if you were to come to my office and I said, would you do me a favor and sweep my floor, and you would say sure, and you would get the broom and you'd start in the distant corner and you would sweep the entire thing down and you would ultimately sweep it all into a pile and you might look back over and say, okay, is there anything that I missed? But that's not what somebody does. That's a learned behavior, because somebody taught you that or you witnessed somebody else doing that. So I've even tested this at times and I've told guys, hey, would you do me a favor doing that? So I've even tested this at times and I've told guys, hey, would you do me a favor, sweep the floor? They go, yeah, and they'll get up a broom and a handle and they look around and they'll see something on the floor. They'll go over there and sweep it up.

Michael Coleman: 26:12

And it's no procedural, it's no beginning to end. Even when stories are told and I really hurt somebody's feelings one time they start in the middle and tell the story and then introduce characters along the way and they may hop to something that's at the beginning and then jump to the end and it's just all over the place. Because in the middle class we tell stories in a very linear fashion, from beginning to end, right, and they're all over the place. And I remember looking at that student and I was so frustrated and I was like, look, all I'm asking you to do is start at the beginning and walk me through what was happening. It can't be that difficult.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 26:50

And.

Michael Coleman: 26:50

I mean they totally shut down because they later told somebody he was being very disrespectful to me. I was trying to share with him the story, but he was sharing the story in the only way he knew how. But I was trying to relate to him the way I wanted him to communicate, not the way he knew how, and so I damaged the relationship, even though I was there to help him. And that's when I recognized how often that I was the one getting in my own way, that I genuinely cared about people, but I was never going to make any progress as long as I tried to lecture them and teach them. I had to come alongside of them without judgment and say, okay, let's walk through life together and I'm going to learn a lot, because you're going to tell me when something's a barrier that I would not even see.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 27:42

Yeah, those invisible barriers.

Michael Coleman: 27:44

And that's why the relationship aspect is so important. You see that in the classroom, my wife has been a kindergarten teacher for many, many years and absolutely loves her children and struggles. She hurts when they hurt and she comes home with that hurt and talks about that hurt. And we were living in El Paso, Texas. She was in a heavily Hispanic where children were coming home and the only adult was a grandparent who didn't speak English. And yet we're trying to enforce English in schools, which is a good thing. I want everybody to know English. But you can just develop an extra level of patience when you understand this person's struggling with something, not because they're trying to be defiant, but they literally don't know how to step forward and I need to recognize that.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 28:30

Being able to understand that there are invisible barriers for them gives us a layer of empathy that we need to have for humanity, because we don't know what those invisible barriers are. So I think, opening up to say I'm going to look at this from a patient, open standpoint and be willing to listen to something that maybe I don't understand, and then that will give me a broader perspective on what they're dealing with, and then gives me a starting point to say great, now I know where you are, we can move forward on this.

Michael Coleman: 29:03

Right. It really brings the helper and the helpee into the same place, and now you're moving forward together rather than you being way out ahead and looking back and going. Come on, catch up, catch up.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 29:16

Right and they're like I can't because there's no floor between me and you and I can't jump over this right now. It's those invisible barriers. That's why I love this framework so much. It also shows the wealthy perspective, something as simple as food between someone that is in poverty, middle class and then upper class, and how we see that presentation or our concept of food. Something as simple as that.

Michael Coleman: 29:39

I don't know if I had the chance to tell you this anecdote, but it was so interesting because when we talk about poverty and middle class we're always the one in the know. But I said OK, well, let's compare middle class to wealthy class. And she told this great story Ruby Payne I got to hear in person. She said I'm from the Midwest and I'm middle class, but I have a friend on the Chicago Board of Trade and when I'm going to say her name's Mary, I never can remember her real name. And she said Mary was sick. I went to Mary's house, knocked on the door and the butler came to the door and she said I heard Mary was sick. I baked her this casserole. Butler's utterly confused, doesn't know what to do. Mary comes out, greets her. She's like hey, I baked her this cake and took it. Same thing happens. There's confusion. Finally a third party came to ruby and said why are you trying to embarrass mary? And she said what do you mean? And she said if mary needs food, she'll send her servants to get food.

Michael Coleman: 30:38

Now everybody in middle class knows it's a hidden robe, knows that the casserole and cake are an expression of love and care. Yep, you don't have to explain it. You just know it because we know what the middle class rules are. Right, but that illustrates how rules in one class system do not translate into another class system. So you have the rules of generational poverty.

Michael Coleman: 31:00

Somebody comes to work in the middle class. So a true story is a guy came there. He worked three days for this guy and they were all friends, they all knew the rules, but he's in a strange land, he doesn't understand the humor that's being told, he doesn't understand how to communicate effectively. So after three days he leaves. I mean, he's in Paris, france, without any resources. He leaves.

Michael Coleman: 31:23

The problem is, is that the conclusion that the business owner drew was this guy's lazy and he doesn't want to work. And I was like, oh a lot, I understand how you get that. However, let me throw another possibility out at you. And so I walked him through these things, same things, and it totally changed his perspective to where he said you know what? I was judging that kid without understanding. He was coming into a really strange, uncomfortable environment and we really didn't do it. We just thought he's one of the guys. We're going to treat him like one of the guys rather than understanding. Hey, I've got to begin to change his perspective and maybe explain not just what we're doing but why we're doing it. He needs to be educated because he's not coming from a background that he and his father have necessarily tinkered with all the things that they're doing, you know.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 32:09

Right yeah.

Michael Coleman: 32:11

And I will tell you the most encouragement that I've gotten out of this whole process in as many years as I've been doing. This is when I do talk to people who tend to lead with judgment, but when I walk through this process, so many people come out of this and go. You know, I've never seen it that way. I recognize in myself all the times that I've lacked patience or that I've been quick with judgment, and so I feel like the more we talk about these things, the needle moves ever so slightly to more compassion, more understanding, more empathy Again, not saying, oh, it's okay.

Michael Coleman: 32:45

Because I also believe in this concept called the bigotry of low expectations, which is oh, you're poor or you're a minority, you have all these barriers, I'm not going to expect anything out of you. No, I'm going to hold you to the same standard, but I'm also going to recognize that you're starting from a much different place than somebody with experience, and I'm not going to punish you for that, I'm not going to judge you for that. I'm going to prepare you to be able to have a better outcome, because I'm going to approach your onboarding or our relationship with a little bit more care than I would, a normal person who's coming from that? But see, all the responsibility for the initiation and the success of that doesn't come from the person we want to change. It comes from the person trying to help them change. And that's what I recognize. I was the one that had to change before I ever asked somebody else to change.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 33:37

And in that mindset, what can schools do then to help?

Michael Coleman: 33:42

So schools have tried many, many different things in many, many curriculums. I want to be very delicate when I say this, because I understand it's a very sensitive issue. I know racism exists. I hate it, I despise it, I try to call it out when I see it. I try to look at my own biases within myself that I'm unaware of. But we spend so much time talking about it and I think when you look at it from this perspective, what you realize is you know, maybe it's not all the problems residing with poor urban schools. It's not rooted necessarily in racism although I'm not denying that racism can and does exist. But the cure for it is to look more from the class biases and again, not intentional biases.

Michael Coleman: 34:33

Because we're brought up in the middle class, it's normal for everybody to think well, sees, see. Even people in poverty think we see the world like they see the world. They're equally confused as to why we don't. As a matter of fact, I will tell you if you get Ruby Payne's book, she has a fascinating thing If you're middle class, could you be married to somebody from generational poverty?

Michael Coleman: 34:53

And she gives like 25 questions and one of those is your rent is due, you've got your rent money set aside and all five questions, and one of those is your rents. Do you've got your rent money set aside and all of a sudden they give it to a friend because that friend needs money and now you don't have money for your own rent. And so it asks you could you be married to somebody like that with those values, or could you go from living in middle class with middle class rules to then adopting? And it asks you questions like do you know how to get somebody out of jail? Do you know which dumpsters have the freshest? I mean all those kind of questions.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 35:21

Wow.

Michael Coleman: 35:22

And it's very eye-opening. So I would say, don't be afraid. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I very much believe, if Dr. King were still with us, that he would be focused on some of these things like how do we change behavior, how do we help educate and lift people? Because Dr. King many, many years ago talked about equality and if you look at where we are, we've made great progress in that everybody gets an opportunity to go to school. You understand what I mean. They're not prevented because of their race. There's affirmative actions program.

Michael Coleman: 35:59

And lots of times you get there and you get extra grants and things like that because of, maybe, some prior disadvantage. I would think Dr. King would celebrate, not say it's the fight's over, but how much progress has been made and would acknowledge that and go, wait a minute- but we're leaving behind these people are still trapped in generational poverty. How do we free them? They're not in generational poverty because of their race. They're generational poverty because there's generational poverty across races.

Michael Coleman: 36:25

There's generational poverty, though, because of certain dynamics that have come about and then they just cement themselves from generation to generation. How do we free people from that and empower them to become everything that I personally believe God created them to be and help them thrive in our world and that's my goal is to fight those barriers. Some of those barriers are leftover racial things, but the vast majority are just everyday things that we think are the norm and should be the norm. We continue to pass more laws that make sense to us as the middle class. We don't have any perspective of how it's. One more barrier in front of the generational poverty person.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 37:05

Absolutely not. No, and things like you were talking about aggressive advising for students being able to establish food pantries and then whole training sessions, maybe even for staff.

Michael Coleman: 37:16

Yeah, and just understanding that, showing compassion. But it's a process and there's times where I mean I can't tell you the number of times I've been cursed out but I don't end the relationship because they curse at me. It doesn't mean I don't put boundaries up, but I have to understand. Lots of times they're cursing, they have no other coping skills of how to express their frustration, their fear, their anxiety and we haven't even touched. I mean we could do 10 more shows on just the traumas of people in generational poverty, traumas that we've never been subjected to, that I see manifest themselves oftentimes into adulthood, that lead to prison conditions and other things. So just show empathy, be patient as much as possible. We have fantastic teachers in this world. Look, I admire teachers so much my wife is a teacher. But if they can begin to move and just try to understand better the kids and the environment those kids are coming from and how it shapes their mind and their perspective, I think it can give you a little bit more patience and understanding to cope with the frustrating times.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 38:21

Right and then understanding maybe that they're coming with these traumatic experiences as well, so there's a lot of heavy weight on them that they're carrying emotionally, mentally. And then offering that positive classroom environment and a growth mindset is really important to know that they are capable of overcoming those things, to give them hope and to help you know, moving it in the right direction. So, as we wrap up, what advice can you?

Michael Coleman: 38:46

offer. I would really encourage teachers and other people in nonprofit space who are helping people with these barriers to start within themselves. And that's very difficult, especially the older we get. You know, a lot of people are like I don't want to change within themselves, and that's very difficult, especially the older we get. A lot of people are like I don't want to change my perspective. I don't want to tear down previous thoughts. I've kind of built my world, I've built my view and it's kind of cemented in. But the vast majority of people who authentically care about others will say you know what, if I feel like my present view is a hindrance to me serving people and helping empower them, then I'm willing to have that change, no matter what that means for me personally. I'm willing to go through that to be able to be a better helper or better mentor or a better community member to give people hope.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 39:33

Absolutely Well. Thank you so much for joining me today to discuss child poverty and its impact on their education.

Michael Coleman: 39:39

Yeah, thank you so much for joining me today to discuss child poverty and its impact on their education. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Lisa Hassler: 39:41

The call to action is to recognize the pressing nature of poverty and its implications for education, and to strive towards minimizing the detrimental effects of economic inequality on the academic achievements of our youth. If you have a story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, you can email me at lisa@ drlisahassler. com, or visit my website at www. drlisahassler. com and send me a message. If you like this podcast, subscribe and tell a friend. The more people that know, the bigger impact it will have. And if you find value to the content in this podcast, consider becoming a supporter by clicking on the supporter link in the show notes. It is the mission of this podcast to shine light on the good in education so that it spreads, affecting positive change. So let's keep working together to find solutions that focus on our children's success.