The Europe In Synch Podcast
The Europe In Synch Podcast
EP14: Act In Synch 2024, Athens Special - The Brands/Authenticity Talk with Jenny Hagblom, Iain Tait, Claus Knuth & Benjamin Vogel.
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Join us in Athens, Greece, where the Act in Synch Summit is fostering cross-industry collaborations and sparking discussions about climate change, sustainability, cultural impacts, and urban transformation. The summit's vibrant setting at the Impact Hub provides an ideal backdrop for exploring how music intersects and acts with advertising, urban development, tech, and global challenges. We highlight insights from influential speakers & delegates who emphasize the importance of community and collaboration in overcoming industry obstacles and forging a positive future in a post-pandemic, AI-driven world.
The chaos of modern marketing has left brands disoriented and disconnected from their audiences, struggling to find authentic voices in a world overflowing with skepticism.
This riveting panel discussion brings together brand strategy heavyweights Jenny Hagblom (former head of Brand at H&M), Iain Tait (Food, Arts and Technology), Claus Knuth (Bates Agency), and Benjamin Vogel (MD of Nayture) to dissect this existential crisis.
"Brands don't know who their audience is, they don't know where their audience is, they don't know how to connect with the audience," laments Tait, capturing the fundamental disconnect plaguing today's marketing landscape.
The conversation dives deep into how sustainability functions not merely as corporate responsibility but as emotional DNA – reflecting a brand's soul rather than just its actions.
The discussion takes delightful, unexpected turns, examining how "mirror neurons" – our ability to sense emotions in others – might be marketing's salvation in an AI-dominated world, and how Gen Z's relationship with brands gravitates toward chaotic, imperfect expressions that reflect their own inclusive experiences while rejecting polished corporate bullshit messaging.
The panelists also critique the increasingly transactional relationship between industries and how brands should strive to rediscover their humanity in a digital dominated world.
The discussion is guided by Leader of Act In Synch, Nis Bøgvad.
Europe In Synch is created, managed, promoted, and driven by several European organizations and companies and is a truly cross-border collaboration.
The goals are to bring together professionals from the music sector with decision-makers from film & advertising to provide a real-life, hands-on, learning experience, and to promote European music in the complex field of synchronization, through communication, knowledge-building and networking via focused mentoring and peer training sessions.
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Intro/Outro music is an instrumental edit of "Gimme" by Daffodils.
They're on Soundcloud.
Europe In Synch is co-funded by the European Commission.
This podcast is a SuperSwell production.
Brand Authenticity Panel Introduction
Speaker 2Welcome to the Europe in Sync podcast . We have another special episode coming from the 2024 Act in Sync Summit in Athens , greece . We're bringing you a selection of talks and panels featuring excellent discussions around the subjects of music , tech , brands and time . This episode is the Brand Authenticity Talk , involving a stellar lineup of Jenny Hagblom , former head of Brand and Identity at H&M , ian Tate of Food , arts and Technology , klaus Knutt from Bates Agency and Benjamin Fogel , md of Nature , all hosted by leader of ActinSync , nis Bogved . On the panel , they discuss how climate concerns fit into brand strategy campaigns and content creation , and how can brands stay authentic while embracing AI and sustainability , trying to strike a balance between technology and human connection . So let's dive right in and join Nis talking to Jenny , ian , benjamin and Knut in and join Nies talking to Jenny , ian , benjamin and Knut .
Speaker 3Okay , I'm not in marketing . I don't know anything about brands or any of whatever you guys know . I have always thought that we were a part of whatever the end result was from you guys , so I think the music industry should pay close attention . So welcome ian , knut , benjamin and jenny . Okay , I have been so excited about this conversation with you about the general behavior and mindset of brands that music is so closely associated with music . Added to campaigns help sell more stuff . So hearing your experiences working with the biggest brands is a value to get a glimpse of . Where would brands be without music ? Where would music be without brands ? It depends on who you ask . Today's overall question , I guess , is if the well-being of our planet is our common concern , how does climate generally fit into a brand strategy ? Let's take a round on that question , maybe .
Speaker 4I don't know . I really don't know , and I think the problem is brands don't know either . I've in some shape or form , I guess , been talking to brands for 25 years or something now in various forms , and I don't think they've ever been as confused , directionless as they are now . They don't know who their audience is , they don't know where their audience is , they don't know how to reach the audience . They don't know how to connect with the audience . I think it's chaos . I think it's really , really tough for people and my short answer is going to be well , if music could show them that music still knew where its audience was and how to connect them , maybe they'd have a hope . But it feels like music is also struggling with being able to know what its audience wants , and so it feels like everyone's just been disintermediated and disconnected from their audience .
Speaker 4And I think we walk into things and you read like what the brand thinks is going on in the world , and I think anyone really believes it . So I think it's a really confusing situation . It's one of the reasons why I think I span out and started up a small thing . It's like we need to start learning again . We need to build up new patterns and some new ways of being . We've been really lucky to find a few clients who really want to kind of dig in and explore what that is like , what they mean in the modern world , like how they do it and from an agency perspective , the agencies are in real trouble as well , because they don't have the expertise anymore to be able to say this is what's going on , because none of us really know .
Speaker 4And I think going back to basics and actually being in rooms with people like I was very lucky . We had a thing last week where we just sat
Brands in Crisis, Confusion, and Chaos
Speaker 4and watched a bunch of people talking . We built this weird technology to see if we could get AI to help people have better conversations and actually halfway through I was like the AI doesn't matter here , watching people have conversations is the thing . And the CMO with this brand was like , yeah , we haven't done this for ages . And you see , pretty quickly they just started talking about gentrification , the fact that no one can afford anything anymore . They're not talking about the things you thought they were going to talk about at all . So I think this kind of loss of sense of why they exist , who they're for , how it works , I think people are just very confused .
Speaker 5Yeah , I think I agree , because the question was where does sustainability fit in ? For me , sustainability is not just about the facts and carbon emissions and the numbers . It's also about emotions , and brand is emotion . It's like the soul of a company , if you like to call it that , and it's my soul , like my personality as well . Am I a responsible person or not ? Am I a responsible company or not ? And I feel like there was a time where maybe there was brands where I said oh , we have to keep up with sustainability . Everyone is talking about sustainability . What do we do ? But I feel like more and more that brands are feeling now okay , actually we're talking about responsibility , and it's a better word to describe . Okay , what do I want to be responsible for and how do I express it ? And I feel like this comes a little bit more to yeah , down to earth right now , my feeling .
Speaker 6I think , having been part of different types of creative companies and brand building initiatives and teams and organizations for a very long time now , I think that one of the struggles that we see a lot of brands and companies and organizations facing is that we're at the crossroads of so many things at the same time , right . So it's tech development , it's consumer behaviors , it's climate crisis , it's public crisis in so many ways . So it's hard for both people and companies to understand what their foremost priority should be . Is it the hunger in the world ? Is it the climate crisis ? Is it my consumerism ? So I think the complexity in which we operate right now and how people feel obliged and emotionally connected to different types of crisis is also creating a very difficult situations to navigate in .
Speaker 6And just stepping away from the brand for one second , I think one of the different shifts in our industry is that I think for a very long time , branding was defined as communications and advertising , so we disconnected the brand from the actual intent of the business . So bringing the business and the brand more integratedly together , I think , stands a better chance of not seeing as much greenwashing , as much disparity in types of intent from organizations . So I think , looking at brand as everything that has to do with the actual business that we operate in , from everything within logistics productions , how much we produce into the world , how we change our operating model , what kind of products we sell , and how we are ready to change within and to give up what used to be profitable in order to stay profitable , is a very , very difficult situation for a lot of companies , because conformity is the way we humans operate best , so creating change is causing a lot of friction and complexity .
Speaker 7This is so nice . What a mood . Huh , we're basically fucked . I think it's really nice . I know that when some of my colleagues around the world call me , I'm always going like , yeah , you're fucked now , otherwise you wouldn't have been calling me , because I'm looking at this as a human factor . Everything has gone so fast and everything .
Speaker 7But next thing in here is the same . We've got something called the mirror neuron . The mirror neuron is the one neuron that is really activating our emotions when we look at other people and we sense a mood in a room Right now , because my brain is working at least half of it after a long day . I'm checking out if you think what I'm saying is resonating , if you think it's fun , and all of that happens in your faces . And I call the mirror neuron the savior of our world , because ai can't
Human Connection in Brand Strategy
Speaker 7do that . They can emulate it , but there's something back for brands to understand , and that is the mirroring that we people need so much . We really need it .
Speaker 7So , when everything is chaotic , what human beings actually do is that they're in a rubber boat and they start looking at each other and they start measuring out . Okay , who needs assistance ? Who's really panicking ? Now , if they panic too much . You just throw them overboard . But I think that's actually a good thing that is happening .
Speaker 7With this chaos and confusion , I think we're starting to operate as human beings and also to see the guys who don't , who operate as entities or corporations , and I think that little thing to me invokes hope , and I think brands that cultivate on that and find themselves inside a culture . I mean , we did it to ourselves . I'm so sorry . Oh , we've got computers . Now we can trick them , even in their bedrooms . Let's do an algorithm that feeds their brain and gets dopamine , and now the robots can do that and we're kind of like , oh , wow , what was it all about ? Brands to me is human beings . So every time I look at a dishwasher , I'm kind of like , oh , we're kind of friends . I mean , you've been around forever . You remind me of my grandma . There's a lot of those things into it . So I think humanization is branding and one of our biggest tasks .
Speaker 4I agree , I was watching the TikTok video the other day . It's a really good Australian young strategist guy and he had this whole thing about how the world is in this constant state of chaos and I think one of the things that's really confusing for all of us is that actually Gen Z is culture and Gen Z is what all brands are worried about . They want to go . How do we relate to Gen Z ? And they don't have brains like ours anymore . They're different .
Speaker 4Like I look at my kids , I think partly the reason why kids love TikTok is they're still seeing other people Like the content . They're still seeing other people Like the content they're watching isn't AI generated . It's imperfect , but it's chaotic at the same time , and what they thrive on is this constant sense of chaos and actually they want their brands to be like them and they want it to be chaotic . They don't want these monolithic , kind of can't touch it , can't get near it , aspirational things . It's like we're all in this together .
Speaker 4My kids , the brands they love are ones created by other Gen Z kids , and the fact that I haven't heard of it makes it cool , and so I think this guy has a really good riff in his TikTok video where he goes look , hellman , stop fucking telling me that mayonnaise is going to save the world . I'm not buying that bullshit , and I think they're so resistant to all of those things that they've seen and gone . This is nonsense , and so they're rejecting all of that stuff and they want human things . They want chaotic things , they want things that reflect who they are , or things that are made by people with the same values as them . Probably connects with the kind of the startup thing at the top of the pyramid . Right . Those are the brands that are going to shape things that my kids are going to care about , and the other ones are struggling to keep up .
Speaker 6I think we had a very interesting conversation during one of the breaks , and that's going back to bringing back humanity into brands , and I think we have used psychology for so many things in terms of making marketing and advertising more effective even destroying lives , I would say but we haven't really interested ourselves so much in how to use psychology to change the world for the better .
Speaker 6A revolution of mine happened a few years ago when I was reading a book actually by Melinda Gates . It's called the Moment of Lift , and there was this term in this book . It was called implementational innovation . So it kind of resonated around the fact that we have more solutions in place , we have more intel in place and we know more about people in the world than ever before . But it doesn't really matter if we produce the best of things if we don't understand how to scale them , make people love them , use them and implement them in their everyday lives . So I think how brands can help people shift perspective , emotionally connect with products and services that are better for the planet is part of the role of modern branding . I think Because I agree with you , Benjamin , that speaking about sustainability will not change the world acting on sustainability will , and brands actually have a very , very fair chance of impacting a lot of behavior , more so than we sometimes think what do you think about ?
Speaker 4lots of brands seem to be almost like delegating their place in the world to celebrity , whether it's sports people or musicians or whatever it's like you know they're going . We want to get involved with those people because of what they represent , because it's safer for someone else to stand for something than it is for them to stand for something . Not only because I think one of the things they see is that artists have this relationship with their fan base . It's almost like by bringing this person in we get the fan base . We also get all of the stuff that that person represents . But to me it feels like the brands , by outsourcing that , they're outsourcing their soul , which kind of feels very dangerous .
Speaker 5It depends on the brand at the end , right , Because there's a Gartner study saying like 75 , 70% of brands are I don't care brands . If they disappear tomorrow , I don't care . And most of the brands we know they are not love brands , so are they influential for me ? Or most of the brands that are like being in my life and they're just fulfilling kind of a purpose right now ?
Speaker 6I think it's close to what we've spoken
Music, Artists and Brand Collaborations
Speaker 6to earlier today purpose right now . I think it's close to what we've spoken to earlier today . I think a good combination of a brand and a piece of music can be really , really magical in terms of moving people's minds and shifting behaviors , because it places people in the right emotional and cultural context . And I think that goes for collaborations with celebrities and influencers as well , because in a way , if it's done the right way , you give people equal win in terms of raising voice to something and becoming part , in a natural way , of a cultural context or an interest or place in people's lives . But when done wrong , I totally think it's at least sometimes a sign of risk aversion and the neglect of this responsibility of handling things that you need to deal with .
Speaker 3I love the fact that we entered the music a bit . I'm very curious about how you work around the table for brands , for campaigns , when you relate to music . Examples of discussions you've had how you disrespect music or the brands . Do we have a tendency , I think , as an industry , to think that you cannot do your end product without music ? I don't doubt that you cannot , but as a music supervisor working with films , it's like you start out as a young music supervisor not knowing the processes of this gigantic team that makes this film and you have a great dialogue with the director and the producer and everything is just a creative heaven and we can do this and we can do that , and you feel you are on board of this team and you are really using your personal passion for this and involvement and saying no to everything else . Because this is it . And all of a sudden , no one reacts on your mails and there's silence . You just don't understand where they went . And then you realize that 40 persons are in the Sahara recording this film , shooting it , and they don't have the time to discuss music now . But , learning the processes , not being angry or feeling avoided by anyone , you learn to know that , okay , there is a time for this and there's a time for not being present .
Speaker 3But again , it also comes down to when you're sitting with a film and have a lot of cues and have a lot of music , maybe one track is the one that they will kill for . They will pay whatever to get that song . The rest is just music . But in our industry we are a very important part of that , but maybe more important than what they think we are . So sitting here . I know Knud personally , so I know you are a big fan of music and you've been working with us at EMI and you do it with a passionate heart and you love music . But still you don't mind saying that you also want to sell oil and gasoline . But how do you work with music artists on campaigns ? With respect , and where do we fit in in your world ?
Speaker 7I don't sell weapons and neither fossil fuels . I've grown up , I've said that I have been part of a world that has been selling people stuff they don't really need , but it's also to me historically a part of the riches we have today . But I think one of the things that music can do with advertising is to actually take advertising back into culture . So I think sometimes even the collaboration between artists and brands have to be more than just endorsement . There has to be a deeper rooted cultural idea to it , and I think the creative people . I'm a strategist , I had an idea in 82 and it wasn't really good but but I think that's one of the things where I think that synchronization in itself also has a higher purpose than just synchronizing and I think it's really nice to see that someone is making it easier .
Speaker 7But I also think we need to have a conversation about the purpose of the whole thing . What is that driver that arts and music can do and why do we need to educate all people on this stage how to use it ? It's not us educating , it's you guys saying hey , man , there's something in this that we can actually get you a spot in culture that you don't have today , because the young ones won't listen to you . And it's not always about syncing the right genre and the right artist or the wrong artist . It's sometimes also a different collaboration . We never see the process . We never see the process . I mean , we owe to the world not to always come with the result , and that's marketing . That's our fault to a large extent , because we just wanted to get out there . So I think there's something there that we need to investigate where music could help us , not apologizing for ourselves , maybe in 10 years or something , unless I become a robot .
Speaker 4The last big music thing we did . We ended up the track cost us three times the cost of the rest of the production of the campaign and it wasn't even a big artist and I think that's the reality is that the pressure on the economics of making ads is basically meant the budgets , but if you're doing a Super Bowl ad or whatever , okay , that's going to appear in culture , it's going to get millions of eyeballs . It basically meant the budgets . But if you're doing a Super Bowl ad or whatever , okay , that's going to appear in culture , it's going to get millions of eyeballs , it's worth the spending . But everything else it's like the production companies are struggling because lots of agencies are taking the basic production in-house . You know everything is just being done cheaper and kind of lower . And for me it's like I could see the value of this track on the thing , but then I was also looking at it going . But that thing is probably going to be seen by most people in social media where they're going to get like 0.3 seconds of the track anyway . And is this really worth like £90,000 for like six weeks to go on a TikTok ? It doesn't stack up anymore really , you know , and I still understand the value of it and there's no rule of thumb here because you know and I still understand the value of it and there's no rule of thumb here because you know we'll have all seen it that sometimes you'll present a thing with a piece of music on and the client falls in love with it and it's like , as you say , I'll pay anything for that because it just makes it . It's unfortunately rare that that happens and you know my friends who work at sync agencies and stuff . The last big , big ad I made was Nothing Beats a Londoner , which is a big Nike spot that had three or four different tracks in it .
Speaker 4When you put a piece of work like that out in the world , there's two things that happen . One , you see it hit culture and it's like this is amazing . I hear kids parroting lines from the ad on the underground . It's like this has landed .
Speaker 4But then you hear other people in the industry going thank fuck , you made that ad and going thank fuck , you made that ad and it's like what do you mean ? And it shows everyone that it's still worth spending the money to make a big ad . And everyone's so desperate to see examples where things are at the level that they used to be , because we're still in love with those big anthemic kind of things , because there are other things that make us feel and believe in brands and all of that good stuff . And again , my kids haven't seen that . They've got fragments of bits of music that they're in love with and they'll dig down into the things that they like , but it's on their terms . It's not the other way around . It's like everyone's just borrowing music from wherever and kind of stitching it together , and I think that's probably the biggest thief of musical influence from the industry . Is that stuff that's going on , I suspect , from the industry ?
Speaker 6is that stuff that's going on ? I suspect I think again back to the fact that we're at so many crossroads . I think we tend to look at collaborations in a very transactional way still . So I think one of the main tasks to figure out is to find better and more ways to create equal value in terms of how we collaborate less transactional , more win-win-win and that entails a lot of different parts of how you build your brand and how you bring music in this case , or culture for that matter , into that operating model .
Speaker 6So there's lots to
Music Value in Campaigns
Speaker 6be said in different parts of sustainability when it comes to H&M , but just to give an example , I think understanding that fashion and the fashion industry is , to a great extent , a big part of the problem .
Speaker 6At the same time , we know that people will always try to find ways of expressing themselves through fashion in one way or the other .
Speaker 6So either we can just give up and say this company is pure evil or we can see change as a sequence of transformation , both because of human factors , but also due to economic factors , because sometimes the result of just demanding like ceasefire or an end to things would not really be the long-term solution either , because we know that economy also provides the resources for some solutions .
Speaker 6So in the H&M case , we kind of realized how big music is in terms of the relationship to fashion and so we actually , for several months , with no resources , developed a new collaborative model and actually built a unit around only music so that we could help inform the whole business model of H&M as a company and how we do brand building in terms of collaborating with artists , both emerging artists and big long-term fame brands . So I think trying to find new ways of building that equal term collaboration into the way we use music in this case , but also how we can provide a platform for musicians and bands and artists in different ways , is a much more interesting and resilient path , I think , than to just focus on the transactional collaborations and how much we pay for what and who gets what in the end .
Speaker 4Yeah , you , you just reminded me of this last job I was talking about . We were going to the artists and what you realize is that everyone's holding on to sync , right , they're holding on to that money so tightly . There's no negotiation , there's no sense of like . Actually , maybe there is some value in that artist being associated with that brand . You know , maybe there is something more important and interesting that we can do together . It's like , yeah , we'll talk about that , but only once you've signed the check for $100,000 . But I can't get you that . I literally don't have that money . And it's like you're asking for something that isn't there . But can we be creative about that ?
Speaker 4Just looking at it , it was a perfect brand fit between the artist and the product . But it was time and time again , multiple different labels , different kind of conversations , multiple different labels , different kind of conversations and you could see people kind of going yes , it's interesting , but I can't talk about it until you've signed the check . And so we're stuck in this impasse where it's amazing that we're able to set that up . But that's a very high level , you know , when you're just at the bottom , as most people are kind of at the end of the process , trying to get some music signed off . It's a completely different ballgame .
Speaker 3But meaning that the discussions you have and the negotiation has an end amount of money In the equation . Are you discussing also the valuable outcome of being a part of this brand's identity , or are you talking about how they behave sustainability wise , or you must be confused when you talk about values from a brand and then all of a sudden it's all about money . So what's most important generally from labels and artists , is that the money , or is it the output , the communication from a brand ? When you talk to clients , do you understand the difference of music ? Because we talk about music in adverts and that is not just music in adverts . That is so many things . That is music just to avoid silence . That is huge artists promoting a big brand like nike .
Speaker 3How do you feel that your clients respect or disrespect the music industry because of that lack of clear communication ? Because I think it sounds blurry . We talk about music as it's very important always , but we also have a money tag on it and we have some values we have to discuss and it's a parameter going from the artist saying I don't want to be involved in this big charity campaign that says we don't want to work with fashion . They are the evil of this world . So I'm just trying to kind of see it from your perspective , because we have a saying music can sell anything but music , and I think that fits still , you know . So are you confused from our side ?
Speaker 4I mean , we sort of live in a world where lots of other things are super measurable , right ? Modern marketers are basically surrounded with numbers and metrics and people trying to prove stuff . Again , I'm only talking from my own experience . Like I haven't seen the music industry selling itself to advertisers particularly well recently , because I don't think there's the self-confidence in the music industry to go you need us because this is what the right tracks do for you . You know , occasionally you'll get a thing which is like music makes the ads or whatever , and someone will try and do like a mini campaign to get people to value music . But I think actually on a day to day basis , and maybe as a strategist maybe you see more of this , but as a creative , I can't remember seeing someone go hey , this is an irrefutable piece of evidence that shows that the right tracks do this stuff . I'm sure it exists , but it's just not . It's not in common circulation at the moment .
Speaker 6I just wanted to add that I think that , again , sustainability might not be the driver for decisions many times for brands , but I think there is a long and the short of it , as always , and I think being perceived as sustainable and being able to prove that in action also provides for a brand to be less at risk of being rejected . So there's the duality in how to build brand to become both attractive short term but also resilient long term . And taking care of the reject factor also makes for a lot of better cooperations with external parties like musicians , filmmakers , models , whatever , depending on the industry . So I think that money needs to be taken off the table . No one wants to be paid too little for the value that they add , but at the same time , from my experience , if you decide on a different way of collaborating which gives you more win , equally and at the same time you can prove that you're all about the brand is also connected to enough success in terms of sustainability and intent .
Speaker 5I think it's just interesting that you then also have these brands that are more sustainable , maybe don't spend as much advertising actually . Just Oatly and Ben Jerry's from the big brands are doing actually advertising right now . So I think if I'm an artist and would like to work for a sustainable brand , it's really hard to find them actually . So you need new ways of collaboration to make this happen somehow essentially those two brands .
Speaker 4Like I don't recall ever having seen a piece of film with a piece of music on for either Ben and Jerry's or Oatly right .
Speaker 6Yeah , but there are other ways of building brand except advertising . So that's where we need to perhaps connect in new ways and find new ways of collaborating .
Speaker 5I had one client and was not a very sustainable brand as a bank in Austria , and we did actually one of the most exciting things I did in advertising . The creative director from the agency I used to work for fell in love with a song with an Austrian band and said this should be the song for the next campaign . And I don't know why , but I feel like I don't know . I have just some pictures in my mind and , yeah , I think we should do this , we should re-record the song and make it more feeling like the bank it is . So they invited the band , we re-recorded the song together and then they actually did a whole tour in Austria just to promote the song and it was like really connected somehow . And I feel like if we do something more like this , with more sustainable brands , for example , this could be very interesting where you have like a very powerful emotion through music and something that is also valuable for an artist .
Speaker 8Hi , hello To the music people in the room . Do you think
Sustainability, Identity and Future Trends
Speaker 8music is to blame ? I come from the advertising world and we follow what happens , and I remember a time where people would define themselves by the music they listened to , and it was a distinguishable factor . Now music isn't , and if you take a look even at advertising the era of long copy there was a beautiful era . Now we don't really employ , or at least use , good writers to that extent . Then came the age of great visuals and striking images . Now , because we're following the trend and less and less people identify with music , we just don't use it as much . So maybe it's not the advertising's fault per se , but it's a societal thing , don't you think ?
Speaker 6Going back to different generational needs and ways of identifying , I think from my experience , the younger generation has a longing to not be defined in their identity the same way as we as I define myself as an older person , so fluidity in less loyalty in terms of specific taste , expressions , choices , etc .
Speaker 6So I think identity is highly connected to the fluidity that most younger people would like to be defined by , also really join hands with fast-paced change and trends . So in some way or the other , we have to be prepared to not define things in the same type of blacks and whites and specifics and categories as before , but rather to stay fluid in the way we operate , the way we lead , the way we produce . The same , you know , what we do today , what we provide in terms of products and services , might be totally irrelevant tomorrow , and that's just the new nature of how people consume and interact with products and services and brands . I think so . In one way , I think it demands excessive adaptability and the ability to change and find new ways of collaborating , operating , paying for identifying ways of doing things .
Speaker 4I'm sure people in this room are working on it . But that fluidity I think the amount of times I've looked at campaigns , especially things that are very digitally focused and gone you know what it'd be brilliant if we had 20 tracks we could use for this . Do you know what I mean ? You could have that same spot with a hip-hop track . We could have it with a reggaeton track . They would all work , but actually they would meet their audience in a much better place . But you're not going to be able to negotiate 20 tracks , even though they'd still be valued at the same price as being for a 60-second commercial for three months . The bill just kind of racks up you . But actually you want microtransactions on some of those things and then it starts to become much more flexible and fluid , like the culture demands . It's a really interesting question .
Speaker 3One last thing , because , knut , you showed us at the Spot Festival some years ago the facial recognition tool you used . Is that outdated already ? What are you using today ? How are you trying to analyze what music does to the campaign or the campaign does to the viewer ?
Speaker 7We still use something called facial coding for a lot of stuff we do , and that is because one of the things that is really hard about our industry is that , even though we know that we need arts and entertainment to get people's attention , the whole model is built up on earnings for companies , which is an evil machinery . I mean , you guys from the music industry , we should actually ask you for help and say , hey , man , we're fucking confused . The media agencies are running with all the money . We've got no money to even invest time in talking about creativity or arts and emotions , and when we talk about emotions , we call Knut because he can talk about emotions as a brain thing , and then everyone who's using the money they go like oh , he knows exactly which button to press . It sounds efficient and I think the conversation is different and I'm really sad to say I can talk for you . Maybe we can't save any of you . I'm so sorry . We should just go home now .
Final Thoughts on Brand-Music Relationship
Speaker 3So what I'm hearing is that you guys think that we should help you , we should grow up . We should say we have the heartbeat for your shitty campaigns and we are worth it . So music has a value . That we devaluate ourselves . Is that correctly ?
Speaker 7Basically , what I'm asking is help us , help you , because I think we're in the same boat and I think that's the interesting thing .
Speaker 3It's not because I want the last word , but I think we're fucked anyway , because I gave a young cousin a cassette holder and a cassette tape some years ago and he couldn't put it together . So if the young ones cannot put a cassette tape into the folder , I think we're fucked anyway . But anyways , thank you so much for sharing the insights . Thank you .
