EP20: Europe In Synch - The Wrap Up & The Legacy.

Welcome to episode twenty of the Europe In Synch podcast.

In this wrap-up episode of the Europe In Synch project, we sit down with a few of the founders and key drivers involved - Nuno Saraiva, Hannes Tschürtz and Ava Toelpt - to reflect on four transformative years of building a truly connected European sync community. 

We look back at how a bold idea evolved into a structured ecosystem built on the core pillars of: the Academy; the Missions; the Observatory; the Platform itself; and the Act In Synch summits.

At the heart of the project, the Academy created space for deep dives with client-targeted catalysts - music supervisors, producers and decision-makers - turning real briefs into shared learning. Beyond inspiration, it focused on long-term impact: strengthening capacity in smaller markets and advocating for music rights education within film school curricula.

Through its Missions, Europe In Synch stepped directly into international arenas, forging relationships and gathering insight and connections at key industry events in the various fields. These experiences sharpened European companies understanding of the fast-moving games sector and opened new pathways into film, TV and advertising.

The Observatory added depth to the detail and data, delivering market snapshots and clarifying the legal nuances that shape sync across different territories. 

Meanwhile, the Platform became a living online resource hub, offering the compiled reports, an interactive info map, written interviews and articles, and a growing podcast archive that extended the project’s reach far beyond just physical events.

The conversation recalls previous summits and looks ahead to Act In Synch 4, hosted at the Côa Museum in Portugal in March 2026, where the theme of “rewilding music culture” connects creativity with sustainability, nature, and conservationism. 

As the European project enters its next evolution, this episode reflects on the legacy of the original vision: stronger networks, greater knowledge sharing, tangible export opportunities, and a more confident European voice in the global sync landscape.

For more information:

Europe In Synch website

Act In Synch Summit 4 (27-28 March, 2026)

Europe In Synch is created, managed, promoted, and driven by several European organizations and companies and is a truly cross-border collaboration.
The goals are to bring together professionals from the music sector with decision-makers from film & advertising to provide a real-life, hands-on, learning experience, and to promote European music in the complex field of synchronization, through communication, knowledge-building and networking via focused mentoring and peer training sessions.

Follow Europe In Synch:

• Home: https://europeinsynch.net
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EuropeinSynch
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/europeinsynch
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/europeinsynch
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/europeinsynch

Intro/Outro music is an instrumental edit of "Gimme" by Daffodils.
They're on Soundcloud.

Europe In Synch is co-funded by the European Commission.

This podcast is a SuperSwell production.

Transcript

Setting The Stage At Eurosonic

Europe In Sync: Mission And Scope

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Welcome to the Europe in Sync podcast. We're here in Groningen, it's the 40th edition of Eurosonic. We're coming to the end of the current Europe in Sync project. So we thought it'd be nice to have a bit of a wrap-up chat looking back on all the good times. I'm joined by three of the key people behind the project. We have Hannes, we have Nuno, and we have Ava. It'd be good to look at a lot of the elements of the European Sync project, some of the work that's been done, and some of the results that have been achieved. But first it'd be really good to get a brief reminder, a little overview of what the European Sync platform and project is, you know, the partners that are involved and the main aims.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Right. Well, European Sync is a project that we started nearly four years ago dedicated to bridging the gap between the knowledge necessary to foster European music placement and audiovisual media from film to television to video games. And so the project is a Creative Europe co-financed project that has several different work packages dedicated to that mission of promoting the best practices in sync licensing European music for the audiovisual sector.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Okay, the project is made up of several key components and elements. There are things like the academy, the missions, there's the act in sync project, there's something called the observatory, and then there's the platform itself, which is like the website, the blog, the podcast, and everything. So can we just go through a few of those and just find out what's been done in each element and the kind of results you've had and the feedback you've had? So shall we start with the academy? What's the academy consist of?

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Sure. So the academy is run by our partner from Hamburg, Markus Linde, who's a music supervisor, and he's also very well versed in publishing rights, and he's worked for record labels his entire life in a way, and he's very experienced. And he loves sharing knowledge. So the academy is whereby the European Sync project sits down with what we call catalysts from the client side so that they can tell us what the workflows are, whether it is the film sector or TV series or video games or advertising. We sit down for the whole day and we put together sort of a music side participation list of labels and publishers, and then from the client side, we have the catalysts that are there to tell us exactly how things work in their field. And these are sort of just like incredible experiences that have been described by several participants as life-changing in some situations, because you rarely have, I mean, you might have a speed meeting at Eurosonic or Ripperband, but you rarely have somebody sit down with you for the whole day to tell you how music actually gets into the picture, whether it is an advertising agency, a creative from the advertising sector or production company or a film director. So the academies are in-depth sessions that are really valuable towards this knowledge sharing, capacity building objective.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

And what are some examples of some workshops and academies you've done in what locations? We've been to many places.

Building Capacity In Smaller Markets

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Yeah, it's been four years. Um you know, we started with making sure we were present in the partner countries. So, you know, Portugal, Austria, Germany, Denmark, Slovenia, Estonia, Hungary. And then from there, Marcus started doing other academies in different markets so that we could achieve within the limited scope of the four-year project, but try to go to as many member states as we could in the EU and really get to know the lay of the land and the challenges and the difficulties that people face at the intersection point of these industries, music and audiovisual. And it's just been an incredibly enriching experience. Marcus has done a fantastic job.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

We must not forget that the industry consists not only of the big markets, but many, many, many different places, and small and tiny markets. So for me, the most rewarding experiences were the academy formats in countries where you don't even have an infrastructure that you would know of countries like Germany or France, maybe. But if you go, for instance, to Slovenia and after those academy workshops, you all of a sudden have a scene for music supervisors and the opportunity and the knowledge to actually license music into film. That opens up completely new doors that haven't even existed before. And that was like the idea behind that, and we did that in many markets. But the very last academy we did is really something significant in the sense that the Austrian Chamber of Commerce started to host a conference for the music industry, the game sector, the advertising sector, and the film industry, all together in one place. And it took us a while to actually get in and understand what they are doing. But meanwhile, this is becoming a fairly potent thing in Austria at least, and might be a role model for future conferences along the lines of what we describe all along.

Bringing Rights Education To Schools

SPEAKER_04 5:18

I think there is one more thing, which is part of our our Slovenian partner, Ziggitch. They're working also with Marcus on establishing protocols with schools, because of course music rights is not often a topic on the curriculum of a film school, right? So what we're trying to do is also set up a few protocols with film institutes or film schools or even other places where audiovisual and music rights should be taught. And if they're not, then we could offer even beyond the four years, so uh it's a legacy that we also leave behind with these protocols. We could offer to have expert music supervisors participate in any sort of class curriculum where the information that they can teach is useful to young professionals working in film or audiovisual. And I think that's gonna be something that the European Sync project leaves behind, and that these schools know that they can count on the expertise of our partners and other music supervisors that want to participate in that sort of thing. So I think that's a really good detail to also leave behind.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

So, Arva, the other element of the project is something called missions that you've been managing. So can you tell us a little bit what missions was about and some examples of the kind of things you've done on that part of the project?

What The Games World Taught Music

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yes, we indeed accomplished quite many missions in three fields, so to say, in audiovisual sector. So we did 36 missions all together in a film sector, in a gaming sector, and some of them in advertising sector. So we target the three pillars of the audiovisual sector, which could be very useful and interesting for the music industry. And I think it was a brilliant idea to not only stick to the music conferences but really understand what is going on and how the audiovisual sector thinks, and what kind of people from the sector we could find there, which we don't necessarily meet, all of them in the music sector conferences. So I think it was really necessary to look into those and how the audiovisual sector conferences tackle the music part, which is really intertwined and necessary and often discovered maybe too late. So, really to connect with the creative sides of the people there, find new contacts, talk about the music industry essence, look what's going on, and then build those relations further. So we connected, we did some networking events when we could, or we just scouted those missions and got some really good contacts and brought them further to different events. For example, in the gaming sector, GDC is a huge conference and really useful for the independent, for the big ones. So all different kinds of doers are there. The scope is large. Developed Brighton, they also had a music-specific theme in the conference and real discussions around music. And Gamescom was one of the latest events we went to. So there we had the chance of even having some country areas. For example, we had the Nordic area already there and Nordic game companies presenting themselves. So our business agency was interested to support also the music industry side going there. So this was kind of a development inside the country. And from the film side, there are so many events. We went to France, for example, Seur Jumel is a brilliant event which already tackles the music industry really well. And we see that in different European countries, I think, is really differently developed. Obviously, France has a really good network and understanding for music sync, but also Soundtrack Cyric, also Fest in Portugal, was really, really good. Young generation was represented there. And when we look at the advertising side, our recommendation is to look more at the creative conferences where you could really get in touch with the creatives. And of course, when you have those connections more and more in the creative field, then the music could be then having better chances to be recognized. And ADC is one of the biggest events in an advertising industry. And in Belgium, there is uh US by night. So this was also a really good creative industry conference. So those are just a few examples of different events, and I think within this project, what we could give is exactly this kind of overview and recommendations and where to build those connections further and yeah to continue building this network.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

So it's been a hugely effective way of spreading the word about Europe in sync and getting very hands-on, very practical.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yes, yes, to really m make people aware how to use more European music. And of course, from the music side, it's great to focus on some topic. For example, gaming is in itself a large field and topic. So if you want to work with gaming, you work with the gaming direction. But I think even there the sync is more and more appreciated to offer something different, to do something different. So Sync enables to bring forward more uniqueness to European landscape. And with using more European music in this field, you can create more and more uniqueness.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

I think the missions clearly showed that it's a quite practical and effective way to get misunderstandings out of the way. And this might be the single most important thing about sync. People think they know, while in fact they don't. So going to all these places helped understanding how little we all know. As a person from the music industry, I didn't know anything about the games industry other than playing FIFA on the PC, you know. That was really quite a learning curve. But it goes for both sides, and that was quite interesting to see at all these places.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Another key component that I've experienced myself was the act in sync series of seminars that you arranged where you curate your own small conferences in different locations. There's been three of those in Berlin, Athens, and in Milan. Yeah. Do you want to tell a bit more about it?

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Sure. Originally, uh what is now known as Act in Sync was described in the initial project as the Europe in Sync lab, where we get together once a year, and we invite some of the catalysts and some of the folks that we've met along the way in the missions and the academy, and we gather those people in a sort of think tank format, again at the intersection of music and audiovisual. However, our partner Anis Bogwad from Copenhagen Film Music, along with Renato Orvath from East Taste, right from the first edition, they said, well, our annual event needs to be about more than just sync. So it needs to address pressing issues like sustainability, for example, and so it sort of became this microcosm within Europe and Sync that has been an amazing experience. For example, partnering with organizations like EarthPersent or projects trying to give copyrights back to Earth, you know, give Earth an IPI number so Earth can earn publishing royalties to sort of save itself with its own fund. So really, really good sustainability ideas that come from the kind of deals that can be made between the music and the audiovisual sectors. So we did things like visiting organic farms connected to the Mickelberger Hotel in Berlin. We partnered with the Hearth Summit in Athens in the second edition and had great discussions about music, film, sustainability, advertising at Line Czech last year, and we're now coming up to Actin Sync 4 in Portugal in a small town called Force Coa at the Coa Museum.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, I was fortunate enough to be at the Actin Sync Summit in Athens at the end of 2024, and it was such a great experience. It's one of the most interesting boutique conferences I've been to. There's so many different kinds of speakers, people I would never normally get the chance to listen to, and lots of thinking outside the box. I thought it was fantastic. What was the main difference do you think in the planning for Berlin, Athens, and Milan? Was there anything that stands out that made them unique?

The Observatory And Market Reports

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Yeah, I think Berlin being the first one, the first act in sync that we did as a sort of standalone small boutique meeting was the kickoff. And then partnering with Hearth Summit in Athens and partnering with LineCheck in Milan, of course, brings different dynamics to the event, and we really hope we can also capitalize on those. For example, the experience with the live streaming from Athens was fantastic. There's a lot of people that joined us online. So we're hoping to build on those experiences to have Act in Sync 4 be the best one yet.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Okay, and that brings us on to another element that you describe as the observatory. This is to do with measuring and reporting, but Hannes, what's this all about?

SPEAKER_03 14:22

You know, it's incredibly hard to actually drill it down to the actual numbers in the sync fields. We had that funny little anecdote of the Austrian IFPI report, the official one, and I asked where the numbers, the percentage of the sink field within the general report comes. And basically it's a guess. And that says quite something because I have a feeling it's like this in many markets. So when we started out, we had great big goals of how and what we can actually observe. And of course, you can view the field from so many different angles that it's practically impossible to nail it down to a certain specific number or percentage or value. But we know there's a lot going on. So what we decided to do is look into specific markets and really rather go into people and sort of a phone book of who's actually handling the business in certain markets. So we did a number of reports in different markets like Slovenia, Estonia, Denmark, Austria, where we found a lot of details also in copyright law, like tiny little differences from one market to the other. So you cannot speak of one joint market in the European Union because you have tiny little differences here and there, and of course, a huge gap in knowledge. We basically were here to bridge that gap or to enable smaller markets that have not so well developed music industry sectors to get up to scale to a point where they actually can make certain business in their own territory. We often speak of licensing with you know Netflix TV shows and stuff, but in fact, it's such a broad field, and pretty much every European country has, for instance, great film funding, and within that lies great opportunity also for a local music sector, but often they fail to do business in their own country because they just don't know enough. So we were trying to fill that gap at least step by step with those reports in the first place. We could go on for like 20 more years, I guess, to do a decent amount of reports and to finally crack that code on the numbers, but yeah, four years are definitely not enough for that.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Okay, and these lead to these market reports that you compile, and they appear on your platform, which is the website, and it's the blog, it's the newsletter, it's this podcast, for example. What's the platform essentially for and all those pieces of it?

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Well, basically, this is more or less the legacy that we leave too. So we did a number of different things that we published on the website, the set reports, for instance, the podcast is hosted there. We have a map of Europe where you can actually look up people in your territory or in other territories that take care of the field in your market, be it record labels, publishing companies, film production companies, funding bodies, CMOs, and so forth, all the players in the field should be on that map so you know who to talk to in your specific territory if you want to know more. Also, we did recently an interview series with prominent figures of the European music landscape about the state of sync, so where we are and where we are going to, which then again leads directly into the events like ActinSync. So these are very much things that we discuss on the conferences, either as guests like here at Eurosonic or within our own realm at ActinSync. So all these contents are uh present on the platform europeansync.net and should stay there for a while.

Act In Sync 4: Rewilding Music Culture

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Very good. And regarding the podcast, we've managed to capture quite a few people who work in the industry as music supervisors and ad agencies, music makers themselves, creative directors, publishers, and also we've included some of the panels that were recorded in Athens talking about music, copyright, time and brands, things like that. So there's a pretty nice library of useful information, people who've lived the job, they're giving out their own advice, some of the problems they face, highlighting some of the disconnect. One of the reasons the European Sync project was set up was to address some of the disconnect within the industry. So that'll be there for people to listen to as well, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Yeah, the podcast is still online, all the episodes that we recorded, and I must say I'm really happy and proud about this project. I learned so much along the way because we really had a lot of super interesting guests from so many different fields within the field, and that only showed how big and how broad this field is. So also here I think we could go on for several more years.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

What about when it comes to any remaining activity now? We're coming to the end of the current project. What's left to talk about? What's left to happen?

Why Art Comes Before Business

SPEAKER_04 19:05

So I I think the most exciting bit that's left is Actin Sync 4. And I'd like to read a brand new text from our partner Nice Bogwald. Like we said before, Act and Sync, since the very beginning in Berlin always had the sustainability angle. And this is what we're proposing for Actin Sync 4 in Forscoa in Portugal. So Actin Sync Coa edition, rewilding the music culture. Two days of discussing and visualizing, forming and structuring, describing and conceptualizing. Rewilding asks us to revisit the core values of our industry as they were historically shaped, what once existed, what has been lost or gained through natural development, and what the consequences of those changes have been. It looks forward as well as back, using the future as a source of inspiration for creation by imagining what the industry would become, how we visualize it, and what we truly want and need for it to thrive. So it's really, in a way, coming full circle to where we started in Berlin because we're going to be in a museum that is dedicated to Neolithic cave engraving. So really ancient art, which, funny enough, when men and women back in those times used to engrave cave walls, it reminds us of the grooves on a vinyl record. So Nissan Ren want to gift the museum a very special vinyl record recorded in Coa during the Acting Sync 4. We are partnering with a small documentary film festival in Portugal called the Doc Coa Nature Film Festival. And because it's a documentary film festival dedicated to films about sustainability and the planet, it really is a perfect match for Acting Sync given the theme that Nissan ran and everybody gave it back in Berlin. So it's the Doc Coa Nature Film Festival. They're going to show three films during the first day of the event, and it's a really good partner to have. So we're going to finish with another very lofty idea, which I think was considered crazy by some people at the beginning, but we're going to do a fundraiser for the Iberian Wolf. Because Rewilding is reintroducing the wolf into the ecosystem. And so we're going to finish with a live music concert and a wolf ball fundraising dinner. So it's going to be March 27th and 28th in this museum of Koa. The registrations are open. Essentially, we're flying uh probably into Porto Airport, which is the closest one, and then it's a two and a half hour ride in one of the uh electric or hybrid shuttles that we're gonna provide. And the idea is by the end of that uh two day think tank uh discussing these topics, we hope to have a sort of a recommendations paper of sorts, not just at the end of the project where we write the final report and such, but what I think will be a very inspiring paper done by uh Nissan Wren and All the other European Sync partners.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

We often talk about business. I think this event is yet another great reminder why we're doing all this. And it's certainly not business or not business first. We only need business as an excuse to actually do what we love. And if you speak to musicians in particular, this comes up quite often. Money is always the excuse that you need to make this work. But you know, these people, thousands of years ago, engraved stuff because they wanted to express themselves. That's still what we're after. So yeah, good reminder.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

It's gonna be a really special, very memorable end to the Act in Sync project. And it'll be a starting point for whatever comes next. You know, we might have like a an European Sync network project, for example, or we could decide to do European Sync 3.0 or whatever comes next.

Impact On Exports And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 22:51

So as we wrap up the platform and the project now, it'd be good to get some conclusive thoughts and feelings from you about how you feel about having worked on the project, how you feel it's gone, what kind of change it might have made to you personally or to the piece of industry that you work in. What do you feel, Arva, about it?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I think the impact has been quite large personally and for the industry. Because Estonia, as well, we don't have a large industry in a business sense yet, but we have many people and many creators really interested in different collaborations and spreading their art and really, as it was said, doing what they love and spreading it and looking for different collaboration. Also, when I look at the European export level, so Sync and Europe in sync, as we have to think as a united market very often and embracing at the same time our uniquenesses. But export, why sync is one of the really concrete possibilities? So making this more visible, I'm really interested myself about the follow-up activities, things we could do because of Europe in sync now, either all together, and as individuals, as a head of an export office, I would love to see how we could put this into our next steps as well: building a delegation, knowing where to go next, and having more awareness ourselves as well. I'm happy if we could help our creators more. And this project is really really great. I'm really thankful for being partner. And I think our partners were really diverse, and the pillars we offered and we discovered were really diverse. So it gave me personally a lot, I hope, for the team and my project manager Marie, she was the head of this project and did a wonderful job. So I think if we could continue something from it, it's a success already.

Elevating Panels Beyond Soundbites

SPEAKER_03 24:34

I think it especially the academy showed you can never do enough. So there would be potential for doing hundreds of those probably, and it would still not be enough. And at the same time, many of these experiences, particularly the academy, were extremely rewarding because you really felt at the end of these sessions that you actually moved the needle quite a bit in this specific place where I've been. But the field is so big and so broad that a four-year project that is developing in itself too, very quickly. This could go on forever too. Right? So it you you always learn, but that's a good thing too. So, like Aave put it, it's actually more of a starting point, too. So we can continue, even without the project, on our own terms, spreading the word if you like, and I think also seeing all these places and um particularly with the missions, the different angles of the industries made us much more aware of how big the world is. We really could go on forever, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

And what I've seen during this project, how much interest it gained too. Like it was a certain amount of countries partnering up in this project as well and working towards a European sink and all over the world. So I saw different countries having a really great interest, and they are working already in concrete mechanisms to help more, to develop knowledge more. So it is forever ongoing activity to develop and to give knowledge and to give resource in the end, and to open some opportunities in a bigger level to give something tangible for the creators in different sectors to work with music. And first and foremost, I really hope that our collaboration, which we have now also developed, is continuing with Tallinn Black Knights Film Festival as well, which is a great A-class film festival in Estonia in Tallinn, and they run also Music Gemitz Film program, and I hope we can build around this as well, future collaborations.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

I'd like to ask you, Nuno, at the beginning, when you started out the preliminary project for Europe and Sync, I remember that the inspirational moment for all of this were the panels at all these conferences that were always the same and ended abruptly at the same wrong point. Yeah. Do you feel we elevated that to a different level? Are the panels different now?

SPEAKER_04 26:45

Yeah, it's true because our starting point was you cannot in a 45-minute panel with three music supervisors really understand anything of any sort of consequential usefulness. So this was a project that always aimed at going more in depth, whether it is by the missions going over to the client side or the academy going in depth in certain workflows and procedures. So I think that mission has been accomplished with flying colors, and I think everyone should be really, really proud of the work that you did on the project. And I think, yes, it's moved the needle. Like it whether Europe and Sync had a direct effect on how other conferences run their sync panels, I never thought of that from that perspective. But there have been other sync projects starting up, meanwhile. So I think, yeah, we've moved the needle in some way that some other folks pay more attention to sync, and there's other projects that have started up after Europe and Sync, looking at music in games, for example, or other situations. So yeah.

A Complex Project With Real Momentum

SPEAKER_01 27:47

What we're talking about here is that we shouldn't think of this as the end of the Europe in Sync project. It's just the end of the beginning of the project, and there's a lot more to come in a myriad different shapes and sizes, with a myriad of different people, and that's quite a legacy to leave behind. So you must be very pleased with how that looks and feels then.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

I think it it has not been that easy, so I'm really proud of us. It's not that easy to bring all of those different parts together to run the academies, to have this meeting point, the observatory, and especially the sustainability topic and the missions that we were just discovering at first, and then in the end knowing more with what we could say or what we could potentially do next, and bringing this value. So I think it was really large and really complex, and I'm proud of us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

You know, the licensing game is getting ever more complicated the more the internet grows, new tools arise, and so forth. So I really think it's only the beginning. We uncovered quite a bit of that, but A, we're not the only ones doing so. There are now, uh Nuna mentioned this, uh, follow-up programs not directly connected to us, but for example, uh Let Music Play Games, they specifically focus uh on just the game sector, but somehow follow kind of our footsteps uh and continue the work in that field and can go way deeper than we imagined we can. So it's really it's endless.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

And I just want to add, we also had last year our first Estonian Music Tech program. One of the winner projects was Think Hub, a licensing platform, and it came from Estonia, and we have those platforms already all around Europe, but it's so lovely and great to see that this topic is something of interest, and we want to build better platforms, and such innovative and great ideas around Sync can come today also from Estonia, which is initially also promoted as a digital country, and so I'm happy it evolves sync also now.

Continuing The Work Beyond Funding

SPEAKER_03 29:49

I think we had really great ideas, great also in the sense of unreachable goals, in a good way though. That was quite inspiring. I quite fondly remember the Hamburg meeting that we initially had when we started out and we talked about acting sync in the first place. That sounded like way out of league, but the idea is brilliant, and that was the case with so many different things that we did, and at the same end, it's a bit frustrating that we need to end it now because, as I said, we really could continue, especially the academy format and stuff like that. But I feel that there is so much inspiration out there that there will be follow-ups eventually.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Thank you, all three of you, for taking time to come and help wrap this up for now. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much.