#160 - Run Forever: Damien Hall on Endurance, Aging & What It's Really Like To Run The Barkley Marathons

In this episode of The RunThrough Podcast, Damien Hall joins host Ben Sheppard for a brilliant and honest conversation about ultra running, ageing well, adventure and what it really means to keep going.

Damien reflects on his ongoing career in the sport, from lining up at his first half marathon to representing GB, finishing fifth at UTMB and taking on some of the toughest races in the world, including the Barkley Marathons. He shares how curiosity around distance turned into a deep passion, and why chasing adventure has always been just as important as chasing results.

They dive into the realities of DNFs, the lessons that come from failure and how those moments have shaped him as both an athlete and a coach. Damien also opens up about getting older in the sport, the small changes he has noticed in performance, and why experience, patience and perspective can actually become powerful advantages over time.

The conversation also explores his record attempts and FKTs, the mental challenge of racing versus solo adventure, and why breaking things down into smaller moments is key when facing huge distances.

They also chat about his new book Run Forever, what the title really means, and how runners can stay consistent, healthy and motivated for years to come.

A thoughtful and inspiring episode packed with insight, honesty and a real love for the process of running.

Get A Copy of Damien's New Book 'Run Forever' here.

Damien Hall - https://www.instagram.com/ultra_damo/

Ben Sheppard - https://www.instagram.com/bensheppard93/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Run Through Podcast. It is Ben Shepherd here. And uh sometimes you get to interview somebody a couple of times, and it's uh just as special the second time as it was the first. Um, Damien Hall is my guest today on the Run Through Podcast. I sat down with Damien years ago now for a for a different show, and this conversation was just as good. We get into ultra running, aging, adventure, and what it actually means to keep going in the sport. In this, Damien reflects on his ongoing career from starting out with a half marathon to representing GB, finishing fifth at UTMB and taking on some of the world's toughest races, including the Barclay Marathons. We get into highs and lows as well, talk about DNF, those things that sometimes can be perceived as failures, but actually might be moments that shape you as an athlete, a person, and a coach as well. Of course, we talk about getting older in the sport. It's a massive part of his new book, which is called Run Forever. But David talks about why experience, patience, and perspective can actually be a real advantage. There's loads of chat in there about records and FKTs. It's a properly brilliant conversation for anybody that is ultra-minded or ultra curious, to be fair. David Hall is on the Run Through podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

It's uh quite a mysterious secret right now because there's no website. The entry criteria is a secret. But it happens in Frozen Head State Art Tennessee to complete it, you'll make a complete five loops of what the organizers say as a marathon. I looked into this a bit in my book and I called it the um the age advantage, with maybe too much emphasis on the fact that you are sort of declining in some respects. But actually, you've got all this experience, you know. If people are listening and they've, you know, they've done a marathon, for example, and and maybe you're at a similar age. I mean, going longer is a brilliant way to keep yourself sort of engaged because it's a whole new adventure and times don't really matter in ultra ultramarathons, not really. My name's Damien. I'm a 50-year-old ultramarathon runner, um, a coach, a father of two, a um an accidental activist and a and an author. That's probably about most of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Probably about most of it, mate. There's a few there's a few things in that, isn't there? Let's be fair. Um let's uh let's start with what we were actually just talking about just before um just before we hit record on this, which was the speaking tour that you're currently on. Um because I think that's quite a cool place to kind of frame this conversation round. Like 20 years ago, 25 years ago, did you ever think you'd be going round doing a speaking tour, talking about all your amazing achievements in the running space?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Absolutely not. No, 25 years ago. So I guess um I guess I've been running running as an adult from um uh what is it, that 13, 14 years. Um but no, it's been a life-changing adventure, it really has. Um and yeah, I'm I'm it's a bit of a new thing for me. I have done public speaking before, but it was never something I was sort of pursuing or or passionate about. Um but a company approached me who do they're called speakers for the edge, from the edge. And previously did like mostly mountaineers, um, but they they're realizing you know, ultra running, trail running's getting really, really popular. And um they set up a yeah, a tour for me. I've done five nights, a few days at home now, and then I'm off tonight to start the next leg of it. Um but I'm really enjoying I'm enjoying it more than I thought. I thought it'd be sort of terrifying being on stage, but people are people are nice and it's going well, and it does coincide if you'll let's get all the promotion, all the self-promotion out of the way earlier. Yeah, I've got a I've got a I've got a new book out about sort of yeah, kind of running athletic aging. Thank you, thank you, called Run Forever, um, which is doing very well, but it co coincides really nicely with with the tour, and it they're actually separate things, but yeah, and I've turned 50 recently as an athlete, but I'm I'm really interested in, I suppose, what's in store, what's happening to me, what can I do to carry on being the best athlete uh I can be, and so on. So I've um yeah, so it's um yeah, it's quite it's an exciting time. Not not too tiring at the moment, but who knows when I'm when I'm at the end of the tour, ask me again.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

When you're putting something together like that, and you know, you do a lot of these as well, and you you chat to a lot of people on podcasts and in real life and at you know outdoor festivals and all that sort of stuff, and out on the out on the trail as well, like it it must bring back into sharp focus like actually quite what a 13, 14 years it's been and some of the achievements that you've you've managed to uh to manage to capture in that time. What was it like reliving those things when you're putting together something like a speaking tour?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, it has been a bit of a crazy ride. Um so yeah, for those who don't know, I sort of yeah, did a half marathon, really enjoyed it, did a marathon, dressed as a toilet, um, uh, you know, enjoyed it. Um did you know, I was just fascinated in distance, really. Like, what what does it feel like to go a bit further? And I did my first ultra marathon, and obviously I'm not sort of competitive at this point, but then I'm doing my first 100k race, just intrigued by distance, intrigued by distance, like what does the next big distance feel like? And then you learn this hundred mile races, did my first hundred like, and I was just fascinated. But I w I guess I was getting competitive, and then yeah, four years after that first half marathon, somehow, at the age of 40, I was in the GB trail running team. And I guess that's how deeply I'd got into it, how passionate I was, how I guess how hard I worked at it. Um and then yeah, the next few years were great really. At international races, I was well, I guess, yeah, the highlight I suppose was finishing fifth at placing fifth at um UTMB, which is kind of our Super Bowl, like our our you know, our biggest race really um at the age of 42. Um and since then I've yeah, still had some good years, um, you know, broken some records, had some had some decent race performances, and just been really honestly really great. I know it sounds like a bit of a wishy-washy hippie sort of thing to say, but just really grateful of the ride, you know. I've been pretty much uninjured all that time, so I've been able to hold on to that fitness and and just had great adventures, um, primarily. Like some of them have been decent athletic performance but performances, but really it's yeah, adventures um in some amazing places with some amazing people. That's a bit of a boring thing to say, isn't it? But that's the truth of it. But um yeah, really grateful, really grateful. But I think because I came to running a bit late, that did make me sort of a bit kind of um well not what wanting to make up for lost time. Um so I did throw myself into it. Like um, I was pretty serious about it, you know. Um but um yeah, what a ride. It's been it's been great.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Did you when you because you talk about coming into it later, and you know, this is something you spoke about on length, and and it's in the books as well. And you know, I mean, we've talked about it when we chatted last time. I remember we talked about the fact that, you know, coming into it later, it almost felt like you were chasing your tail a little bit at points. Was was that something you were kind of were you aware of that? Like were you like, I need to make the most of this now because I am late to the party?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

That's a good question. Because I had another there was another interesting little pressure element that helped me that would have been quite unique to me as well. That most of my early races for the first couple of years were nearly always magazine assignments. Um, because I was primarily a freelance journalist. And although I made very little money and sometimes lost money by doing these things as kind of work, um it put a little bit of helpful pressure, but like one magazine especially, I knew that if I didn't finish the race, they wouldn't take the story. So I'd be away from my young children. Um, and sometimes there might be a photographer involved photographing me. And I they would have got paid actually, but in my mind it was like, oh I don't want to waste their time, I don't want to waste the magazine's time, I don't want to waste my my wife's time when I'm you know, and I'm away from the kids, I want to make that count for something. So actually that quite helped. But yeah, there was just a say, I mean, it was incremental. It wasn't like I did my first ultra and thought, I want to get in the GB team, I want to finish top 10 at UTMB. It was incremental. Um, for example, at UTMB, I've I went did four years in a row and sort of went, yeah, 29th, 19th, um, 12th, 5th. So there was an incremental sort of you know, increase in performance. Um but yeah, I think just above all, it wasn't yeah, I've got no regrets at coming to it late, but there was a sense of I mean I did do above all, I loved it. You know, I loved it, I was passionate about it. Um and and yeah, not just the racing, it it is the training too. You you've got to fall in love with the process. I think that's really important, actually.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

There's a couple of these, there's a couple of these races as well, as if if you look at your sort of um your race CV, if you will, or your probably not just races, like your ultra-running CV in general, that it feels like you've over the years become maybe fascinated by certain things, like maybe it's the FKT here, or maybe it's the UTMB there, or you know, more recently, probably the Barclay. Like, what is it about going back repeatedly to some of these places or races?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, well spotted. I uh when I was giving this talk, actually, uh as I've been giving this talk, I ri realised I'm saying some of the same things, and often I'm saying, so I went back to the race and did it again. Um and and that's not always great because if you had an amazing time, and there are two or three races where I've gone like actually had a brilliant time, it probably won't be better than that. That'll do. But certainly UTMB, so I've started UTMB five times, I've started the Winter Spine Race five times, uh Tour de Gion three times, Barclay Marathons three times. Um, so there's definitely a sense of well, I think I've got to have a clear sense of had a brilliant time, but maybe I could perform better, maybe I could do better than that. Um, and once or twice I've gone back and and it's been so with UTMB, the final time I went was my first DNF actually, and it was like, actually, I've done this enough now. Like there was no desire to carry on because I'd just already seen the rest of the course so many times, had the adventures. I just felt there was nothing new to be gained. Um, I mean, I was I'm I was disappointed I stopped, but I can it makes sense to me now. It was like that was one time too many, and I almost needed a bad run there to to sort of show myself, no, no, you've had you've had pretty much all the experiences you will have here now. Um that said, I mean, the winter spine race, I've maybe spread it out over a few more years, and then I could see myself going back there again. Uh again, I've I've had I've had the same pattern there, actually. Five well, not quite the same pattern, but five starts, four finishes. Um, but I've spread them out more. Um, but I do love that one especially. There's just so much adventure and drama um to be had in the in the winter in Britain. But um yeah, so I do get a bit obsessed with things. I don't think I've got an addictive personality, and our sport does perhaps attract people, you know, with that. And there's quite a decent history actually of people sort of escaping you know less healthy addictions and swapping it for running. Um and and yeah, I that that that's that's mostly healthy and great, I I hope and think. Um I don't think I'm addictive, but I I definitely get obsessed with things. And I get re if I get into something, I get really into something. So, for example, I don't wear a a wide variety of clothes. I've only got about three outfits that I wear repeatedly. Breakfast is exactly the same every day, it has been for maybe a decade. Like it's exactly what I like. I know I like it. Um yeah, so there's something in that that makes me sound a bit on the spectrum, but but um yeah, when I get into something, I get into something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Touching on that UTMB kind of run, that must have been quite difficult as well. Because, you know, you were literally on an upward trajectory, weren't you? Like it was every time you went back there, it was I did better, I did better, I did better. And then obviously you had that DNF performance. That must have been pretty hard to swallow in that instance because, like, I guess for five years you're constantly seeing, oh, I'll do better. And I bet that probably is where you were at, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, I think it's clear, you know, that the 2018 when I placed fifth, like that was the best I could do because actually the year before, although I placed 12th, the time is actually very similar. Yeah, um, and in fact, Itra, who sometimes ranked performances on some of these big races, actually ranked my 12th place performance as a better performance. Um and then actually I deliberately decided not to go back the next year, even before that year, to do something differently, to do something different. Um, and then it was COVID. So it was actually three years, there was actually a three-year gap from when I did fifth, uh placed fifth and then came back. Um and I guess I was a little bit older, I think I was 44 or 45 by then. Um but actually in the race, I was still doing pretty well. Um I got passed by Courtney to Walter around the time I was pretty sure I was gonna stop. And actually she finished, she ended up finishing seventh overall. So I was still in a position to finish in the top ten in theory. Um but yeah, it did. I mean, I was underfueled as well. I I really got underfueled. You know, that's just a really basic thing that that is quite easy to yeah, quite easy to do. And um but it did, yeah, it did affect me a bit because until then, if I'm honest, I thought I was I s I say this carefully, but I thought I was caught sort of invincible because I'd done nine years without ever stopping and without ever not completing something. Um and that was my 49th ultra, I counted up afterwards. And I kind of had thought once I commit to something, I will see it through. Um but I guess that showed me life's life's not that straightforward uh and our brains aren't that straightforward. And yeah, I just I was just like, no, I d I I don't want to do the rest and it but it's it's probably made me a better coach, to be honest, because till then I couldn't really um what's the word? Like co yeah, coaching is my main income. And you know, I couldn't really identify that much when someone had DNF, when one of my athletes had DNF'd. Like I I think I was kind to people and stuff, but I I couldn't really understand the thought process of it. And now now it's yeah, and now hopefully I can, hopefully it's maybe a better coach and a more well-rounded person. But I think ultimately I didn't have enough of a why that time. Like I'd I'd had my best performance. Um that was one time too many. Um, but yeah, I mean kind of I quite like the phrase like failing is fun and you know not everything will work out, like and it's just all part of learning. Um and the bigger thing would be to yeah, to be too fearful to try things in the first place. So um yeah, it's just just part of the sport. And we're trying to do difficult things, you know, and and inherently difficult things mean the chance of success is is smaller. Um, but um so yeah, I don't think I would I don't think I would change that. I think it was gonna happen at some point anyway as well.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

I guess it's that empathy as well, like when you talk about the coaching piece, it's like being able to empathize with somebody that has gone out there, and you know, when you're standing on the start line, nobody's nobody's wanting to get those three letters at the end of their name by the end of the experience of whatever they're doing, are they? Like there's no desire for people to do that. If there is, that's a very strange position to be putting yourself in. So it's like it's it's being able to now understand, I guess. At that after that experience, you understand why that can happen.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, yeah. And I I I I think because it's only natural that a few days later you start rethinking it and going, no, I could have carried like yeah, and now now when my athletes start doing that, I I say, no, you've you you've kind of got to trust yourself and the decision you made at the time and say, no, that was the best decision you you made at the, you know, you could have made at the time. You you decided on that, and and you know, and that is okay. And it is alright not to. There's a fascinating podcast by um, sorry to mention another podcast, not as fascinating as this podcast is. Oh, cheers day, man. Um but um if if you do have time for more than one podcast in your week, um Steve Magnus and Brad Stolberg, the American writers, do one called Excellence Actually, and there's a really good one to look up called Um, I think it's along the lines of when to grit and or and when to quit. And they talk about, you know, there isn't a black and white yes or no situation. Like you've just got to weigh up for yourself. What's sort of what's the you know, how much does it matter ultimately? How much does what you're doing matter? What are the um consequences of stopping? For example, you know, is there another similar race in a few months that you would actually be in a healthier state for? Okay. Yeah, people have to weigh up for themselves. You know, how important is that thing? Could they go back the next year or do something similar in a few months? I mean, one of the examples they give when they're discussing it is like, is this an Olympic, you know, is it the Olympics? Like, that only happens every four years. Maybe it's worth hanging in. And, you know, in my example, I'd done that lots of times. You know, there wasn't that there wasn't much to be gained. There really wasn't. So um, yeah, people have it is more nuanced, it is more complex, um, but but people have to sort of at least at least take the time to weigh things up, hopefully calmly. Um, but that yeah, that's helped me. That's helped me in the longer run as an athlete and a coach.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I think as well, like we'll get onto the Barclay, obviously, but without without having a DNF before going to the Barclay, I'd imagine it would probably be a little bit of a shock to the system about what happens during that race in in the most part.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I mean the but the Barclay is different in almost every single way. Um for example, at UTMB, you know, you to you take your and I didn't even know what happened, you know, when someone DNFs, and and I did DNF at you know one of the major aid stations, which of course is more helpful than than deciding to do that up on the hill or something where you still have to get down. Um but at Barclay, I mean, yeah, no one's no one's picking you up or um or coming to help you at all. Uh is quite different. In fact, I mean at Barclay almost everyone do had DNFs. That's what I mean, yeah. So so I still sort of I mean, people can say if if they don't think this is fair, but I still consider myself to have only had two DNFs, you know, one one at UTMB, which was like a mental DNF, and one at the Winter Spine Race, which was a physical, you know, a physical injury that was um seriously stopping me, and I was worried about long-term injury. Uh and uh I consider them to be my only two DNF DNFs. However, yeah, I've tried the Barclay Marathon three times and not completed it, but that is the story for most people. Yeah, that's what it's gonna say. For those who don't, for those who don't know, yeah, 39 editions of the Barclay Marathons, only 20 people have ever finished. Um so most people know, yeah, on the start line, most people know. It's it's kind of how far can you get. However, what's frustrating for me is is um those first two years anyway, I got, yeah, you you need to do five loops to finish, and I got onto the fifth loop both times. Um and my my reasons for stopping were were a little bit different. Um but essentially, yeah, I didn't complete that fifth loop. There are only three people in the world actually who have got onto a fifth loop and not completed it. Um so I I mean a a very exclusive, a very exclusive little club.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

What's more important to you, and we'll we'll we'll speak about the Barclay a little bit more, mate, because I do want to obviously touch on that a bit more, but what's more important in the first instance? Is it is it racing or is it adventure? Because I think there's been these two kind of parts of what you've done over the past 14 years, um, and it's yeah, it's interesting to weigh up those two things.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, it's a good question. Uh I mean I would say having adventures um primarily because nowadays I'm much more I have much more of a sort of race to train mentality, as in you put a race in the calendar and then think, oh great, those three months beforehand, that's gonna be exciting. I can do some big long runs in in Ariru or Lake District, uh, I can invite some friends. Like I start thinking of the training and get inside excited about that. And and also maybe like I've got a few things lined up where I'm supporting other people, which is great fun, which is an adventure, but it's not about my you know my racing or my records or or my thing. Um but then you know, within that there are deadlines and or or cutoffs or or time targets or you know, historic numbers that are quite exciting to see, you know, how how far can you how close can you get um or maybe previous performances of your own, you know, j in a way just like someone at Parkrun, you know. Um so that adds that adds an exciting element, but it's not it's not essential. Um and I guess, yeah, I'm 50 now, I've gotta the truth is I've I've got to slowly be letting go of that a bit in terms of those universal sort of you know race wins and times. So I've got to I've gotta be thinking more about the adventure is the truth of it. But um yeah, for now I can just about just about kind of do both.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Is that a difficult thing to kind of process, Damien? Like the fact that you know maybe you're not gonna be able to run to the level competitively that you once were able to or you would like to.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I think I think for a year or two it did frustrate me. Yeah. Um so I didn't notice any real change till definitely definitely, I think still 46. Maybe 46, 47. I just the and it's only subtle at first, and it's still you know, it's still not a significant thing. Like last year at 49 I'd I won the Lakeland 100 with the third fastest winning time, um, and won another long race. Um so it's it's a slow decline, but initially, yeah, I was it was disappointing, it was disappointing. Um and the very first thing was just feeling a bit more tired, especially on some easy runs after a workout, and then recovery from races a bit slower. But then in local races, actually, um, I wasn't doing as well. And there's a race here called um in Wiltshire here, called Over the Hills, and um I'd won it twice, and then I did it, and I wasn't even top ten. And I was actually only two minutes slower, and then you go, Well, it's a bit muddier, and like I had a quite a tiring work week, and so so was I even two minutes slower? You know, maybe really it was only 90 seconds or 60 seconds, like you start telling yourself things, but ultimately I used to be really competitive, even in short local races, and and now I'm not really. Um I I guess, yeah, after a while you have you have to kind of accept what's happening. But yeah, it did take me a year or two.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

It's um I mean, and and the thing is you're you've you've as you said you've still had some phenomenal. Performances, and there's so this is the brilliant thing about um trail running and ultrarunning and almost adventure running in some spaces, I think. I don't think you ever really need to let go in a lot of ways to to to doing things because there's so much scope in the world of being outside and being on the mountains and having those adventures, which I think is something that are not a lot of other sports have to the degree that trail running has, because if you're a footballer, you get to 28 and you're over the hill, or if you're a rugby player, you know, you get a concussion and that's kind of it. Like it it is quite an inclusive sport, even when it comes to um yeah, the change in whether you want to race or whether you want to, you know, use it for adventure.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Oh, yeah, no, that's a brilliant point. But even within that, um, well, I mean, the winter spine race this year, the male and female winners were 53 and 55. So what we know is that yeah, your speed and your power go first, but your kind of economy and your endurance they last much longer. So, yeah, right. Sports, you mentioned football and rugby. Obviously, you need sprinting and power there. Um, so so people are past their prime much earlier than than than distance runners. And yeah, it's rare that someone over 40 is is sort of competing at the marathon, for example. But in ultra marathons, yeah, people are competing well into their forties, and then at the extra long stuff, I suppose, you know, 200 miles, yeah, people are winning in their 50s. So isn't that exciting? And um, and and in terms of back to more of the adventure idea, I do think if people are listening and they've you know they've done a marathon, for example, and and maybe are at a similar age, I mean, going longer is a brilliant way to keep yourself sort of engaged and find rewarding, you know, rewarding moments and experiences in running because it's a whole new adventure and times don't really matter in ultra ultra marathons, not really. Um people in your office won't go, oh, what time did you do for 100k or 100 miles? And and they and even if they do, they won't know if it's good good or or you know in the bottom percent of the field. Um they'll just be impressed that you ran 100k or 100 miles. Um and the secret is we don't run all of that, we we hike bits anyway and have a good picnic along the way. Um, so yeah, there's the adventure element, but also we can stay competitive much longer, which is um, yeah, I feel very fortunate about that. I didn't, you know, I didn't pick this sport on purpose thinking I can stay competitive for longer, but it almost fell into it. Um but um I'm proof of that, and and so are lots of other runners. So it's um yeah, it's pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Do you think there's a there's a mental side of that with you know, with experience comes the ability to maybe hold on for longer, keep that grit from a mental perspective, like somebody that's 35 doesn't have the experiences of somebody that's 53 if we're using that winter spine analogy. You think that's part of it?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Oh, absolutely. So I I looked into this a bit in my book and I called it the um the age advantage because I got a bit too, or there's maybe too much emphasis on the fact that you are sort of declining in some respects, but actually, you've got all this experience, you know. Um, and I spoke I spoke to a sports psychologist about it, and and she was saying, you know, things like perspective, like so you're not doing so well right now in the race, but for an older athlete, a more experienced athlete, might have that sense of perspective that A, they know things could change in a long race, or B, it doesn't matter that much anyway, because they've got more years, you know, running isn't the only thing in their life, it doesn't matter as much as maybe to a younger runner, and then also so perspective, also patience, and and we saw that at the winter spine. Um, there was a classic in the men's race, there was a classic sort of hair and tortoise situation, and and the and the of course the the tortoise some way behind the older guy came through and won, which was and not for the first time. Um, and then also probably problem solving is another one in my end of the sport. Anyway, the longer stuff, problem solving becomes a really big aspect actually, and that often relies on the experience of you being in a similar situation before. And there's a quote actually in the book from I've got nine case studies in the book, and one of them is um they are record-breaking Irish runner, Ian Keith. Um, and he says, everything about racing is actually better now. Um, everything except my speed. But all the other aspects so he's not as competitive, is the truth of it. And he does say, look, if I could choose, I would choose to be younger and more competitive. But every other aspect, so from problem solving about foot issues or or or managing sleep deprivation, that's much easier for him now and and much smoother and doesn't ruin his race. So a lot of the other aspects are actually, you know, are actually better. Um so I think you know, in some regards, we should stop thinking of sort of you know, but masters athletes with somehow disadvantaged. And actually we've got all this, yeah, all this experience and different perspective on um on our running.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah, and that's why I kind of asked that question, because I think I think sometimes people and there's always that flick flack between positive and negative, and there's always positive aspects of negative things and negative aspects of positive things. And like that's just life, isn't it? But I think um there are so many positives about being able to race as you get older and experience these things as you get older, because you do have those that knowledge base that maybe somebody 20 years younger doesn't have. And maybe they are gonna, going back to that DNF analogy, maybe they are gonna DNF before you DNF because you've got way more capability to push through that point, if there is that question that's uh that's coming up, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, yeah. And um what I did in the book is I did look at some, yeah, some some impressive performances from older athletes, and yeah, there's nine nine case studies. And and also another aspect is like people who come to running later in life, perhaps. And there's a guy in there who ran his marathon PB at 55. He'd actually been a lifelong runner, but hadn't really trained, you know, I suppose that consistency consistently or or or with or with much mileage really. And yeah, you know, he didn't do high mileage ever, but like he I guess he went from low mileage to sort of moderate mileage, um, and got yeah, ran a mouth and PB at 55, and then went on to get several GB vests for cross-country. Um so really impressive. Uh and yeah, just shows some of the things that are impossible that are possible later in life. Um yeah, I think people should be really um and whenever I post about this on on social media, actually, there's always someone, even this morning I did, and someone said, Yeah, I'm new to running, I'm getting P you know, I'm getting PBs in my 60s, you know, because he's got no 30s and 40s to compare it to. So is it he's loving it, you know. Um so yeah, there's lots to be uh lots to be enjoyed. And also, I mean what I'm doing a bit actually is I'm getting PBs in my strength work. Now, you wouldn't know it to look at me necessarily, but you know, I've given up on the idea of getting a PB at 5K, but I can get a PB, and I don't care what anyone else, I don't know what anyone else is lifting, or I don't put this on social media, but you know, I'm quite interested in what can I squat? What what weight can I squat now? And and um yeah, can I just keep bettering myself? And that's quite it's quite rewarding, you know. It's just my own little individual thing. So there are different places, and people might consider, you know, might even consider things like triathlon or obstacle racing or you know, just different types of running.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

It's just getting scratched in that itch, isn't it? I guess. Hey, maybe Dame Damien will see you on a so you want a bodybuilding stage soon, are we? I don't feel there's any danger of that. That'd be a bit of a couple. Um pair of trail shoes. Um let's talk about let's talk about the the Barclay a little bit more, because as you said, like um only is it one of one of three, one of four, or yeah, three other people have started the fifth lap, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Two other people in the world who have got onto the fifth loop without yet finishing, although two of us are still trying. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah, yet yet being a very big word there, because I know that obviously you went back you went back again um recently, and that seemed like an incre it seemed like this year was an incredibly tough year. Um I guess for people that are listening to this that maybe don't even know what the Barclay is, give them a little bit of context to what that race is, kind of like how it works, what what is a fun run? What is like how how hard is this thing?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Well, newsfash, a fun run isn't that much fun.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

So there's so much to say about the Barclay. Like, what is the Barclay? That is that's that's a very existential question in the first instance.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah, no, well spotted. Um the basic thing is that it's uh quite a mysterious secretive race because there's no website, the the entry criteria is a secret. Um, but it happens in in Frozenhead State Park, Tennessee. Um and to complete it, you're meant to complete five loops of rough of what the organizers say is a marathon, um uh in the in the woods, it's mostly in the woods, um, and to prove that you've completed each loop, you you because it's not marked, they've hidden books in the woods where you rip out a page corresponding with your bib number and bring it back to camp each loop to prove that you did the right l route. Um and if you do that in a time limit, you can go back out for another loop. Sometimes it's clockwise, sometimes it's counterclockwise, obviously, sometimes it's dark, sometimes it's light. Um, the course changes um most years, um and it's incredibly difficult. The big so there are three things that make it really difficult. One is yeah, one is the navigation, um but the other two things are yeah, the terrain is mostly off trail. Um, so it's loose woodland, but very, very steep. So um we think each loop at the moment is about 15,000 foot of vert. So just two loops would be the same as UTMB or the same as Everest from sea level. So loads of steep, really steep woods. Um and then thirdly, it is the time limit. So you've got 12 hours to complete each marathon. Now I know anyone listening to this will think that's loads of time. Uh it really isn't because it's yeah, well, so steep and so slow. Um so my fastest loop this year, and I was was I yeah, the fastest loop anyone did this year was 10 hours. Or just under 10 hours, a few minutes under 10 hours. Um in the past, I've done early loops which have been sort of eight hours twenty-ish. So they've increased it by quite a lot. A couple of years ago there were five finishes, um, including the it was the year that um we had the first female finisher, Jasmine Paris, which was I was incredibly lucky to be there to see that. Um but they yeah, so they they make it a bit more difficult every time someone finishes and they ramped it up. They overcorrected it, I think. Um so for two years now there'd been no one even to get onto a fourth loop because they've added more and more climb, more and more, you know, steep climb. Um and it's um well to me it's currently impossible, or it's impossible to me to cover that terrain in the time, in the time limit. Um yeah. What's the attraction? It's the puzzle element. So it it's well, so I've done yeah, I've done similar races in terms of they're not similar, but I've done the winter spine race four times. I've done the Tour de Gion, which is a 200-mile race in the Italian Alps. I've done that three times. So it I was looking for something else sort of difficult and challenging, and this is challenging on a whole other level because you you need to be mentally you need to make good mental decisions and calculations when you're extremely fatigued. And and I'm used to not having to do that, is the truth. I can carry on. I've done a lot of races that are three or four days, and I'm quite good at yeah, carrying on, being tired, but continuing, continuing, continuing. But on this one, you don't just continue following some flags, you have to know, you have to calculate and be exactly sure of where you are and where you need to go. And that's the element I'm finding difficult, is is remembering, calculating, being precise. Um when yeah, when very fatigued, when you could when you're in a second night, gone through a second night without sleep, sort of thing. I'm I'm struggling there. Um, so that's the element for me. It's the extra mental fatigue and clarity you need.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

And I guess it's it's a it's the puzzle work contraction. You don't have a you don't have a watch, right? Or you've got a watch, but it's not a watch that we're all used to having. It's not the watch you've got out on in Tour de Giance or Um on the wind to spine or at UTMB. Like this thing is well, it's basically a Casio, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, so they um you're not allowed any electrical items other than a head torch and um the watch that they give you. Um and the the watch doesn't have the time of day, it just has a countdown, or is it does it count up? It counts up to 24 hours and then starts again at zero, which is actually actually more it that is actually more useful than the time of day. Um but yeah, like it's not record, yeah, it's not helping with navigation, it's not um recording your activity for you or anything. Um so it's minimal, and yeah, there's no tracking, they don't, you know, they don't really know where you are, and sometimes you don't really know where you are either. Will you go back again? I would like to try again. I mean it's out of my hands. I don't, you know, I don't always get in when I apply, um, but it's still an itch that you know I feel like I could do better, even though the course to me is currently impossible. They do change it. I do feel like I could potentially do better. I feel like physically I can do the that terrain in that time. Uh just about or or at least the previous courses. I don't know about the current course, but it's really it's fine-tuning the mental skills, really. Um uh the navigation, and and just yeah, went very fatigued. Um so I would I would willingly try again, or even though I'm prepared for yet yet more humbling, but I would try.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

And I think as well, it's like you know, the people that are listening to this that don't know what it is, and I don't think anybody truly knows what it is unless they've been in it, Damien, like, because you can almost see the terror in your eyes when we're talking about it, but like this isn't just this isn't just another mountain race, is it? This is a mountain race that you're coming back covered in blood. This is a mountain race that you're clut like you've you've already mentioned the vert, the the crew can't touch you. The this is this is something that's different to anything else, really.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, there are other um perils in those woods. We heard we heard coyotes um this time, which I've not heard before. I'm told that mountain lions or or small bears can come into the woods. There are wild, lots of wild hogs, actually, and uh, and I thought they were harmless, but locals tell me actually don't go near them. Uh they have occasionally eaten people, allegedly. Um rattlesnakes. Um now, usually when it's cool, um they they just hibernate, you know. But I I my very first day there, there was a it was a sunny day, warm day, and there was a rattlesnake right on my path rattling um at me. Thank you. Uh thank you. Usually in the race, they all go away uh and hide again because it's been cooler. But um and then there's rock, there's rocky bits, there's bits of mining sort of industrialization. There's a prison. We go under a prison at one point um in a in a tunnel. Um there are occasionally bits of um like bits of fence, occasionally random bits of fence in the woods when you least expect it. Um yeah, it's pretty, there's all sorts of there's all sorts of bits of bobs. Rocky, yeah, it's um oh and the it's famous for the sawbriars, so these brambles I suppose they get, um, which are yeah, bigger than our brambles in in the UK. Um now that they're never going to end someone's race, but yeah, they scratch you up pretty bad um some years. So yeah. But honestly that's tough the least of your problems. It's um yeah, it's it's um well that I guess it sounds a bit weird as to why I want to go, but um I think it's the challenge of it, yeah, that it's so few people finish it. It's a puzzle, it's a big puzzle. Um and I have genuinely enjoyed a lot of the time of being out there of you know, co camaraderie shit with with other runners and people and crew um and people in camp. There is a lovely family vibe there. I mean it sounds horrendous, doesn't it? But it it is actually very warm and welcoming. Um and there's a lot of humour. Um yeah, there are there are reasons to um to enjoy it as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Going back this year though, and you know, mentioning like this course is in your mind pretty much impossible. Like, was there a moment out there in the first lap that you were thinking, like, what have they done here?

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah, I was trying not to. So we're you don't learn the you don't learn the route till the day before, basically, when you kind of register. Um and yeah, like you know, someone had a look at the map, came and told us when we were waiting in the queue, and it sort of said, Look, it's the it's the same. Like all that had happened was camp was a tiny bit different. It was honestly like not even 50 metres away from the other camp that we normally use. Uh it was being renovated, so we had to sort of move, but the rest of the course was the same as the year where no one had gotten to a fourth loop. Um, yeah, that was kind of crushing. Uh, but I had you know, I I'd thought about that in advance, and like what will I do if the course is, you know, and really I can only concentrate on giving my best possible sort of effort and performance. And and in a way, this year, no one, you know, no one else, I mean, one person did better in that Sebastian Beschon completed that third loop and and I didn't complete it because I didn't get all the pages. Um, but no one did much better, no one got out onto a fourth loop. Whereas the previous time I was there, five people had finished and I hadn't. And that was that was harder to take because it was like, well, it was doable, like people did do it this year. If you'd done things differently, you could have been one of them. Whereas this year it was like, uh yeah, I don't think anyone was going to finish. But in terms of I just tried to think loop, loop, one loop at a time and one book at a time. Um, you know, that classic ultra-running trick of chunking it, basically, you know, the next the next aid point or at least the next mile, the next mile. That was what I was trying to do. I was I was trying not to think too much about time and just you know, just do the best you can for each for each hour for each book.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

And I guess it's it's very much it, you know, with with all of this, it's an individual, it's an individual thing. Also, um, I know that you mentioned the camaraderie, with this, there is a there's a little bit of those elements, I would imagine, of almost like going to war together in some respects, I I would have thought, because there are so few people that do experience it, and and when you have experienced it, I would imagine you and John can have a good conversation better than any other two people. Well, maybe uh uh a few other people on earth, but like I bet that conversation about that, Barclay, is is uh yeah, you almost probably don't need to say anything. It's just that related relatability of look, like we both know what this thing is.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Well, I think firstly, even zooming out from Barclay in our sport, there's something really lovely about sharing, especially some difficult miles, some difficult terrain or difficult weather with with someone with with another human. And actually, some of my most special memories are are almost sometimes there's a language barrier, or one of you isn't very talkative, and and actually you share some time together, and and only you that's quite intimate without ever even discussing it sometimes. That's really nice. And then at the Barclay, yeah, that's kind of turned up to maybe 10 because yeah, so few people get only 40 people a year can can start it. So so and and then of course that's already been really filtered down because you have to find out how to get in in the first place. Um, so it's really filtered down, so there's only certain types of people get there, and then not that many people last that long out there is the truth of it. So when yeah, you you you do share some, you know, there's some of the French runners who I haven't had many long much conversation with, in truth, but I have a I think I have a special bond with some of them because we've shared we've shared moments or even just been out there at the same time and we never even saw each other, but we knew what the weather was like, we knew how difficult that terrain was. Um yeah, that's a really lovely thing about our sport, I think. Um yeah, those shared shared moments.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

It's almost like a boxer, in it. Like, you know, when they always say like after a after a after a bout, they will they'll have that for the rest of their lives. I think it's kind of like that in in some respects when it comes to racing or you know, some of these adventures. And that probably brings me quite nicely to kind of the FKT portion of what you've done over the years, Damien. I think it's a it's a it's a it's an important point to mention as well. Um fastest known time, slightly different kind of concept to obviously uh a normal race. Can you do a route, whatever that route is, in the fastest that it's ever been done? Quite an easy concept, really, but difficult because you're very much competing against a clock in yourself rather than anybody else. Um in that instance, you're not chasing down anybody. What was the first allure of that?

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Well, the very first one I did actually was yeah, it was it was still like a magazine story at the time. So and and an FKTs, or or as we FKTs is more of an American term, and and in fell running at least, we tend to say just records because yeah. Well, you know, um it might it might be, yeah, it's it's semantics really. But um, but I I thought these are getting more popular, I'll I'll try one for a magazine story, and and I needed to get a long run in ahead of UTMB, so I decided to run around the Isle of Wight. Um hadn't really properly checked the distance, it was quite long. It was over 70 miles. Uh long run the Damien. Yeah, it's quite a long run. Yeah. Um and it was only about I think it was less than two weeks before UTMB, so it wasn't a very clever idea, actually. Um and I did miscalculate the time as what like what it should be, but as far as I could tell, there was no kind of record for it. So I sort of um yeah, I did I did that. That was my first one. But it yeah, it's primarily a magazine story and to get a decent long run in. Um but my next significant one was yeah, it was more sort of prestigious is probably overdoing it, but it was the South West Coast path. Um, and I had really good help. I had a guy who'd run it before. Wanting to run it again and sort of inviting me along, and and we had a guy supporting us in a van as well. Um, and it and this the southwest coast path is 630 miles, so it's a long one. So it was for us, it was like ten and a half days. Um that was you know, it's one hell of an adventure, but with a yeah, with a with a timeline, you know, with a deadline, and it just I guess you you just get the chance to or at least I mean at that one, yeah, admittedly the other guy had designed a lot of it, you know, he was picking the time of day and how to do it, but after that, anyway, you know, there's just a lot more um autonomy. You you get to choose like where, when, how, and if that appeals to people, then it's a really exciting thing to do. So, yeah, you can pick different styles, like are you gonna have people running with you and supporting you, or do you want to go totally solo? And I've you know, I've done both. Um, and even within solo, you've got unsupported and self-supported. So, self-supported means you could pop to shops if there are shops available, or even stash a bit of food up ahead of you, potentially, whereas unsupported means no, you'd carry everything other than water, um and you'd be you know totally on your own. And yeah, I've done I've done both, I've done mixed pairs. Um it's just yeah, adventure. Adventure, but for me, it was like, well, I wonder, could could we match you know the the historic best time on this route? And um that just adds some excitement, adds a bit of stress as well, like it's not as relaxing and or fun, but um yeah, I've been very lucky. I've I think I've yeah, I've I've set eight eight records of FKTs, and a lot of them a lot of them don't still stand in truth. But um yeah, I've had a I've had a blast doing that as well, and it's quite well during that year 2020 when you know there weren't any races, I did start to think this is this is what I'm gonna do now. Like this is this is better. But actually when races came back, I realised I'd missed the community element a bit as well of you know turning up, seeing friends, seeing, you know, racing with friends, or race, you know, volunteers with friends, you know, or just making new friends, I realised I did miss that as well. So I mean the great thing is you don't pick one or the other, you can do you can do both.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

With these massively long, not only you know, records, but also the races, when there is that massive amount of um mileage ahead of you, Pennine Way, what's what's Penine Way like? 268. Well, officially 268, probably in reality it's about 261, 262. Okay, so like when you're standing on the start of the spine, or you're standing on the start of well, this this random start that you've created almost for yourself to start the the record, like what what are you where's your head at at that point? Are you thinking about far ahead? Are you thinking about the first 10 miles? Are you thinking about the first half an hour? Like, what are you thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, you've got to chunk it, you've got to chunk it as in break it up. I think it's really off-putting. And in fact, we know we know from some studies now that like you can make things seem too daunting by thinking, oh, this is three days, or this is 200 miles ahead of me, like that's really unhelpful, even if it's true. Um, you've got to try and think, okay, it's five miles till whatever, it might be to get to a certain hill, or till you see your crew again, or even just one mile. Like, how am I for this mile? Can I do one more mile? And and it keeps you more present as well. And yeah, chunking it, and I think that applies to big things, yeah, big things away from running as well, like you know, like long speaking tours, for example. Um, or writing a book. Yeah, I mean it's quite intimidating to like, oh, you know, I have to write, I've contractually obliged to write 60 or 80,000 words. How the hell, you know, but of course, you just write the first page, the first bit, um, you just kind of chunk it and concentrate on now. And um it sounds quite a simple thing, but it's it's yeah, it's really effective. So um, yeah, better to stay in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

We've mentioned a few times kind of like the journalistic pedigree, Damien, and the stuff that that you did in the past, and that's now the two meeting almost when you were doing those articles, when you were you know running those first races, and now you're is this your third book, is it? Am I right in saying? Third running book.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

I've done some other stuff, yeah, some walking guides and some uh sports books, but yeah, yeah, third running book.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Third running book. Now you're putting like your heart and soul and your love onto the page for people to kind of read and digest. Is that a nerve-wracking thing to do? Or are you kind of in that point now where you're like, you've done it for so long from a journalistic perspective that doing it with a a book is not not too stressful?

SPEAKER_00 48:24

No, no, I still feel quite vulnerable when it goes out there because you you still sort of expect someone to get in touch and go or publicly go, this is nonsense, you know, or this or this isn't true. So it is a bit it is a bit scary, but stuff gets thoroughly checked before it goes out. But but it's still or just or maybe you know, I try not to look at reviews on Amazon, but you see it's really hard to resist. Um and and you might get someone, you know, in fact, I always get someone going, actually, I don't think this is very good. Um, and you just have to, you know, you just have to live with it, really. Um and it's easy to yeah, start uh what's the word, sort of remembering that one and and forgetting that 20 people actually gave it five stars, you know. One person out of twenty-one people wasn't so hot on it, but twenty you know, and you forget that twenty people like it. Um so yeah, I've got better at that, but yeah, it's still quite a vulnerable experience. But I do feel incredibly fortunate. But it as you were asking me that question, I did remember, so I switched schools at sort of what we now call like between so year seven and year eight, and I remember going to see the new school, and the head teacher showed me around, this is Artway School in in Stroud Um in Gloucestershire, and um he did say what what what subjects do you like? And I remember saying um P E and English. Um and I wasn't I haven't shown particularly uh around those times I haven't shown particular brilliance either actually, but but I did enjoy them. And yeah, the the truth is those two if you if we want to look at it that way, have have sort of guided me and been really useful to me um in my sort of adult working working life actually, which is um yeah, I I could I could I couldn't obviously I didn't forecast what I would be doing, but like um I've just followed, I guess I just have followed the things I've enjoyed doing, I suppose. And and um it's working out on some levels.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

I think on a few levels. I think it's working out pretty well on quite a lot of levels. Yeah, you can get um you can get Run Forever Now. So I'll put all the links to to go and buy a copy in the in the description of this podcast. Um and mate, I I I I absolutely love that title, and I think it's probably a lovely way to wrap this up because you know people need to go and read the book for themselves and and find out more about what it's about and the lessons and the quotes and the stories from within it, from personal experience, but also from from talking to other people too. But what does that what does that title mean to you? What what does run forever mean?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Yeah, it's a it's a good one. We were we were undecided about the title, but it I must credit my um commissioning editor who's also an ultra marathon runner, uh, Kirsty Reed, who who messaged me one morning, just said, let's call it Run Forever, and I was just like, that's it, that's perfect. Um you know that there's something um aspirational there, obviously. I mean, I can't promise everyone who reads it will be able to run forever, but it's at least the idea that we might be able to, and um and hopefully, yeah, there there is practical things in there that people can do around their training and health, which which would make it much more likely. Um, but it's yeah, it's the idea of I guess health healthy aging, I suppose, is another aspect of it, but also just trying to be the best athlete we can be at any age. Um yeah, and I think yeah, a lot is a lot is possible. It's um also all sorts of things are possible as as we yeah, as we discussed earlier. So yeah, it was someone else's idea, but I like I like it a lot. Um and uh it's almost like near the end, there is a sort of little manifesto that people can sign if they want of almost like pledging to yourself that you're gonna do these things to, you know, these particular training things to to yeah, to try and run forever, which I just think yeah, it's a bit of a romantic idea as well, but I I I I believe in it.