#163 - The Truth About Marathon Training, Grief & Identity | James Warnock

James Warnock joins Ben Sheppard on The RunThrough Podcast for a candid conversation about marathon running, grief, identity and building a life around purpose.

Fresh off an 8 minute PB at the London Marathon, James reflects on finally enjoying the marathon after years of difficult experiences with the distance. From cramping issues and failed race goals to learning how to fuel properly and trust the process, this episode dives deep into the reality of endurance sport beyond the highlight reel.

James also opens up about the loss of his father and how that moment completely changed the direction of his life. From leaving the corporate world to building a career through running and social media, this is a conversation about taking risks, identity and finding meaning through movement all while building his business. 

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James Warnock - https://www.instagram.com/jwarnockk/?hl=en

Ben Sheppard - https://www.instagram.com/bensheppard93/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Run Through Podcast. It is Ben Shepherd here, and on the pod today, we have got James Warnock. Massive thank you to James for coming on. He is an Out and Out legend. You're going to hear a very candid conversation here, to be fair, about marathon running, grief, identity, and building a life around purpose. Fresh off an eight-minute PB in the London Marathon, James reflects on finally enjoying the marathon after years of difficult experiences with the distance. Something I think a lot of us can probably relate to. I certainly can. From cramping issues to failed race goals to learning how to fuel properly and trust the protest. This episode dives deeply into the reality of endurance sports beyond the highlight rail. James also opens up about the loss of his father and how that moment completely changed the direction of his life. From leaving the corporate world to building a career through running and social media. This is a conversation about taking risks, rebuilding identity, and finding meaning through movement. I took a lot from this conversation actually. And if you're navigating change in your life right now or chasing a big goal, I think you will too. James Warnop is on the Run Through Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

You start double guessing yourself when you create a video which you might love, but the algorithm does not love it, and so it performs significantly worse. And I think you've just got to realise that if you love it, your audience should follow you for you. Like just trust yourself. So I will just take risks and sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Because what I think once you've experienced loss, like I had with my dad, that for me is rock bottom. So me kind of going for something and missing the goal is nowhere near as bad. I value hard work and consistency. And if that makes me a good runner, then great. But being a good runner isn't tied to the identity, it's the values that bring the run runner out of me. My name's James. I am, I guess, a social media content creator, but I also now part own a business called SAP. My background is in corporate, um, and a few things happened in my life which meant that I kind of took a bit of a change in trajectory and the past three, four years have been a bit of a roller coaster ever since.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Right, yeah. Roller coaster I think sums it up, and we'll definitely get into that. Um, we're speaking on Thursday, the 30th of April, and I think it's cool to just frame it with what's just happened. Um, obviously, week after the London marathon, where James ran an eight-minute PB. Um, how was it? How did it feel? And coming off the back of it, how are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Um, it was honestly amazing. I've had a bit of a mental block with the marathon since my first one three years ago, purely because of like cramp and just struggling to actually enjoy it. So to finish the marathon, regardless of time, having enjoyed the whole thing was euphoric. Um, and then to get the PB was great. I did miss my target time, but it's very hard to complain when I get such a big PB and had an amazing time whilst I did it.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

I think we were just mentioning before we hit record on this, mate, like that enjoyment piece is so big, isn't it? And I think sometimes people forget that I know it sounds weird, but like it's supposed to be fun. Like you're supposed to actually like enjoy running a marathon. Like, and I I'm I'm the same as you, like my poo B is nowhere near yours now, but like I have had a brutal experience at marathons over the years, and has made me like hate them, to be honest, and like enjoy running far because I know that doesn't hurt so much, and I know I can enjoy that. Um, and I'm quite jealous of the feeling of actually having a good time because yeah, I've never had that in a I've never had that in a marathon. That must have been quite a like eye-opening thing, like almost.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, I think it's one of those things where like for the majority of people, I'm obviously quite fortunate because of social media means most of my race spots are covered, which is great. Um, but I've paid for race spots multiple times before when I still do. But you're paying to do it, so like there's no reason why you should not have fun whilst you are doing so. But yeah, I agree. Like, I was just waiting for this moment because I've I've really I've really enjoyed like 10k races, half marathons, I think they're brilliant, but the marathon just always escaped me. Um and I think one of my my friends, Becky Briggs, says, like, look up, like it's so important in a race to just look up and get out of your own head. And it was kind of the first time I really took that on board. Um, it was still really hard, like, don't get me wrong. I think I had a I had a mental barrier in my head with like 36 kilometers. It's always when I just seem to cramp and my race goes really badly. And for the last 6k, I'm just like, why am I doing this? I hate this the whole time. And so when I kind of got past that in Chicago in October, I was like, oh, okay, I understand it, but I still found Chicago really hard. I think part of that was because London, the crowd is just insane, it's your hometown marathon, like nothing's gonna quite compare. And then London this time, it was just the whole time was electric.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Did you, when you were going through those barriers and when you like got through 36k again in London, was that like a oh, like I think I'm all right here type moment? Like, oh my god, this is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah, I think for me the race was kind of a weird one. I obviously didn't hit my time and I realized quite early on I probably wasn't going to hit it, but I was like a constant level of uncomfortable the entire race, I would say. So, like even from the first 5k, because I was like weaving in and out of people, I was like a seven or eight out of ten, and it never really got too much harder, which meant I was kind of uncomfortable enough that I couldn't really push on, but not uncomfortable enough that I was slowing down too much. Um, and then when I got to 36k, I did start to feel my legs start to like tweak a little bit and cramp, and I was terrified. So I honestly I yeeted two gels, which was like my reserve gels in case I needed them, and five salt tabs, which is like it was it's ridiculous, I know. And we'll we can go through it in a bit, but like I'm a high salt sweater, and then after that, I just kind of like I still felt them a little bit, but nothing ever happened, so I just took it in and I just had faith in my body would be okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Talk to me about like when you have to recalibrate in a race because you just said then, like you knew pretty much from early on that it wasn't gonna be a goal time day, but it was still obviously a really, really good day. So, in the process of the race itself, how are you how are you speaking to yourself to be like, hey James, right, you're gonna have to take a set year, mate?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

I think it really depends on what your goal is. So, this was the first race that I entered where my goal time range was actually pretty significant. So I was my PB previously was 249. I think on the best day possible, if everything had gone right, there was no reason why I couldn't have run like a 234. So, like for me, my range was kind of in between like two technically in between 234 and 249, which is a massive difference. Yeah. So when I went out, I went out at like 236, 7 pace. Um, it was like sardines in the first 10k, so we were just weaving in and out of people, and we went through halfway in like 11930. So we were on for like a sub 240, which was great. But I realized after first 5k it was just gonna be a long, like long small because of the heat. And so I was kind of like, right, you're not gonna hit your first goal, but you've still got so much in the tank, and you know you've got such an amount of time, and you know you're so much fitter than you were when you ran your 249. So just do what you feel good doing, take in the crowds, don't come off the pedal too much, um, and just kind of take it in. I think London is just one of them where it's so loud from 10k onwards, and I'm very fortunate that because of social media, it means I have quite a lot of like my lot of my demographic is in London, so like the amount of times my name was called meant that I was just like it was so hard not to smile the whole time. And so, yeah, I was just kind of like, I know I'm not gonna hit my goal, but it's gonna be a PB anyway. I'm having the best time ever. Like, take it as it is.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Does that put pre more pressure on you, do you reckon, running in London that there are a lot of people that know your face? Like, is that difficult?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

For me, no, I don't think so. Like, I just love running and I would do this regardless of whether I had social media or not. Um, there is the element of like, do you just do it for attention? And like, everyone loves a bit of attention. So I think that side kind of just drills me forward. I think the reason I didn't put out a concrete time was because I didn't want that to be what was like people were looking at me when they were tracking, and I don't think I will ever do that again, to be honest. I think like it's your own race, run it. Whether you get a PB or not is still an amazing, it's still an amazing achievement. Um, so not putting out my time did make a big difference. I don't think I'll do that again.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

I think actually that's quite uh uh like an important thing for everybody though, to like calibrate before their race, like what is what is the reason I'm doing this. And if it is like straight up, this is the time I want to run, I'm gonna say it outwardly, then that's all right. Like I get that, but I'm with you, I think, on this. It's like the actual end goal should probably be something that is intrinsic rather than it being like, I'm gonna tell everybody that this is the because then it just feels you can you can have that decision then to yourself, can't you, after the fact. If you want to say, look, I've missed it, or if you want to say, hey, I decided it wasn't for that and I just wanted to enjoy it, you've got the ability to do that rather than being like, I'm a failure. I'm like, it's just not a good way of being.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I think for shorter races, like 5k, 10k, half, I'm I'm more than happy to put my time out there because it's one something that can I'll train for, but the training block isn't as intense as a marathon. And it's like if I fail it, I can try again two weeks later. Whereas the marathon owes you nothing and anything can happen over 42 kilometres. So I feel like the time range is just so much more significant to actually commit to. So yeah, it's just I think it's just a marathon for me more than anything else. I probably won't have times for.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

I often think about like, and it's a really good way of putting it, like, it doesn't, it's it doesn't owe you anything. It's mad that they've just found a distance that's so brutal in it. Like it's just like, right, why is it that 26.2 miles, like 42.2k, why is it that that number is just so awful? I like, I really don't, I really don't know. It's mad.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Well, I think because 5k and 10k for me is like if you go out hot, yes, you're gonna struggle and it's gonna be painful, but it's really only struggling for like maybe a K or two if you if you overheat overheat it in the 10k, then it may have like 3 or 4k. But for a marathon, I've experienced bonking after like 30 to 32k, and 10k is a long time to be in pain. Um, so yeah, I just think in my opinion, 10k is the best distance, followed by half 5k, and then the marathon is just my least favourite by a mile, but I now do enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

So I uh we'll see. I did Manchester a few years back and went through halfway and like bonked about 13 and a half mile, and it was uh I can tell you it was a long way. I was like, this is not a good place to be. Uh you mentioned kind of like things that have gone wrong in previous marathons, man, like cramping, the salt tab situation, the sweat situation. Like, what was different this time around in terms of preparation and things that you did to kind of put yourself in the best in the best place to do this in London?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

So I think there's so many elements to a marathon. It's not just like the fact I took salt tabs. Um, like your whole training block has to be not perfect, but it has to be pretty solid. So I'd say my first marathon, I've been hadn't trained for it before, and so I was missing maybe some key sessions. Also, didn't really know much on the nutrition fueling side of things, so that was a bit of a struggle and didn't take any of the electrolytes. And then I've had blocks where I've been injured for like maybe four weeks of block, which means you then miss key sessions like 34 kilometre long runs and stuff like that. So your body's then not actually attuned to running the distance. Um, for the past two blocks, which has been Chicago in October and then London in April, I've had two incredible blocks back to back where I've consistently hit 100k weeks, um, not really had any niggles at all and hit all my long runs. So, one, my body was primed for the distance, it was just a good block. Um, unfortunately, that's just sometimes the way the penny falls is you just get injured out of nowhere, um, which obviously some influencers have been absolutely absolutely savage for recently. Um, but that's like one side of it. Second side is it takes time to understand what works for your body in terms of like volume, intensity, like fueling, carbloading, salt retention, stuff like that. And it was only until I'd cramped in a few marathons where I was like, okay, well, something's going on here because I'm still cramping, even though I'm having good sessions. So I went to get my salt tested. Um, I haven't actually found out my salt, my sweat rate yet. So I don't know how much I sweat per like hour, for example, but I lose 3,050 milligrams per litre of water, which on the scale they use is like 400 to 3,000. So I'm above the scale. So I knew, and I always knew that salt was like a problem because every time it's hot, I just have crystals everywhere. Um I was like, okay, well, let's figure out a way to kind of this the next thing was getting coaches who know exactly what they're doing. Um, I think things like runner are absolutely incredible if you're starting out and you have a bit of knowledge in terms of running. Um, but if you really, really want to get into the nitty-gritty and you need someone who like you want to talk to as a mate and saying, like, my session feels bad, let's do something else. Coaches are the go-to. Um, so got some coaches, went through as like testing and finding out like what my carb should be per hour and stuff like that, and then over time just refined it so that London was a bit ridiculous to be honest. Like, I ended up taking 4,250 milligrams of sodium, which is like 4.25 grams of salt. And that wasn't the plan, but the plan was to take like around a thousand milligrams an hour. Um, but because it was hot, I was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna take this. Like I'd rather have the salt in my body and my stomach feel a bit off than cramp up.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah, especially when it's happened before as well. Like, you don't want that, it's just that awful feeling of and cramp's brutal, isn't it? Because you know it's coming, and it's like, oh no, like it I've got that little twinge, here it goes, and then it's just like game over then. What the volume intensity piece you mentioned there, what what is your like what is your response to the both? Do you find yourself um getting fitter quicker with intensity, or are you more of a volume man? Because I it's very different with each person.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, it depends what my goal is, and I'll always have periodization as my like during my training. So two, three years ago, my primary races were high rocks. Um, so volume was significantly lower, intensity was definitely higher. But I was just always tired and I felt like I was just fatigued all the time. Um, and I was getting little niggles here and there. And then I'd say about a year and a half ago, I started taking running more seriously. So instead of doing five runs a week and five gym sessions, which is definitely overtraining, I brought it down to six runs a week and only one gym session, very focused towards um like running mechanics and stuff like that. It was never anything like heavy or intense. And so I'd say my volume went from probably averaging between 40 and 50k a week to in my blocks being from like 100 to 110k a week. Um it's interesting because I always you always hear that volume is king, and obviously it's hard for a lot of people to get volume that high, and it should not be done in one week. Like I want to stress that this has been over like a three-year period where I've been running, where I've gone from like 30k to 50k to 70k to 100k over the three-year period. And I don't think my body could probably hack much more than like 110k, like at that point, and it's like diminishing returns, but I do think having increased volume has made a big difference for me. Um on the other side of it, is I have lost quite a lot of weight for running, um, which makes a big difference. Like I was around 87 to 88 kilograms and quite muscular beforehand when I was training in the gym, and now I'm more like 81, 82. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Do you do you feel like do you miss the gym side of stuff, or are you cool that you've like found this? Because it like that, that in itself is quite a big deal, right? Sorry, mate. Uh yeah, that in itself is quite a big deal. The fact like dropping that muscle mass basically, because I'd imagine for a long time you were training to have that muscle mass, and now that muscle mass is gone, you're kind of recalibrating like what your body is there to do. That's a bit of a weird period and adjustment.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah, definitely. I think so I used to run when I was younger and then stopped when I went to, I'd say when I was like 18, and then very much got into weights, so became more bodybuilding. And it was very like aesthetics focused. Um, and I would just overdo it massively. And then I don't really know what changed, but I just became less bothered about how my body looked. Um, I am quite fortunate that my the genetics in my family are quite like we're quite dense normally, so I don't have to do loads of gym work to maintain an an all-right amount of muscle. Um but I actually just started falling out of love with the gym and I really fell in love with running. And so I was like, well, I can always like thankfully, muscle memory is a massive thing. So like if I want to go back to the gym and bring up to five days a week, I'll probably put it back on within like six months or so. Um, but for me, it was just running was my focus, and I knew to do that I had to go all in on it rather than trying to become hybrid and do everything at once, probably get injured and not really succeed too much in any of them.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

I think there probably is that that thing of like wanting to do a little bit too much at the moment sometimes, where like people are trying to do, you know, it's all it is and hybrid is a real thing, like people can do it, but it's like if you're doing 15 things at the same time, you're probably never gonna be the best at one. So it's like I think if you're if you do have those fundamental goals in one area, it's that specificity piece, isn't it? It's like, and you you kind of have to focus on it if you want to be the best.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I think it's a really interesting topic. I think overtraining is rife right now, anyway, which is why so many people are getting injured. I think Hyrule's is an incredible sport, but it does perpetuate injuries because people are just pushing their bodies to the limits too much. Um yeah, I just I don't know. I think I've really tried not to overtrain, so I only do like seven sessions a week now, which is still a lot. Um but before I was doing like 10 to 12 and it was just way too much. Like it took away from everything else in my life. And like you said, specificity is key. And I think the issue is that like in high rocks, people think you still have to do three to four strength training sessions a week and be like really strong. But realistically, if you're trying to be like a fast runner, being strong only matters to a certain extent, even in high rocks. Whereas all your high rocks runners now, who are like absolutely killing it, have a running background, and they don't necessarily have to be like these 200 pound hybrid athletes anymore, because they can just as long as they're like strong enough to push everything and not fall behind, they're catching up with everyone on the runs by like 20 to 30 seconds. So that was kind of my mindset was like I'm probably strong enough or they're thereabouts to do what I want to do in high rocks, but my running needs so much more work.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

I think to me, especially seeing it as we're seeing it now, high rocks feels like a running event with the functionality rather than the functional piece with running. I think I see it that way around. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but that that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

No, I think you are. There are still some animals who are obviously functional based, and then they just happen to be also just good athletes, so they're good runners. But look at Luke Greer, for example, he's coming through out of nowhere. He's obviously like a 221 marathon runner or something, and it shows like when he's on the course, he just rinses everyone when it comes to the runs. Yeah, so I think it is interesting, but I think runners will dominate that sport.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah, I I definitely think so. You've seeing people like um Holly coming into the female side and stuff like that as well. It's like, and she's absolutely flying, and it's it is a and then I mean she's gone and flew London as well, which doesn't make any sense. Sometimes you do have these performances, you're like, I don't really get that, but anyway, that that sometimes happens as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, I mean Holly's just an athlete, like you can't, there's no way around it. It doesn't really matter what she puts her mind to, if it's something to do with endurance or strength, she'll probably do a pretty good job.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

When you um you know, we've talked about kind of like the building the volume, the introducing some coaches, being very specific, all that sort of stuff as well. But like what we obviously haven't mentioned in this conversation yet is like your life, man. You've you're a busy, you're a busy guy, you've just got engaged, you've got a hell of a career going on, like from the social media perspective, you've got a business, and you are balancing all of this training around all of that other stuff as well. So even though the block has kind of been perfect leading up to London, there's still a lot of juggling going on there. Was that a difficult thing to have done through this block? And how do you like remain focused, I guess, on the end goal when you have got so much going on?

SPEAKER_00 20:52

So I I think for me, like sport and running has always been such an inherent part of my life that I don't really think twice about ever doing it. So I never really think I have to fit this run in because it just is what it is. Like I wake up and I know that I just want to run, and like between my time between like 6 a.m. and 8 a.m. is always going to be some exercise in some way or form. So like even when I was in corporate working long hours, I was still training a lot. And then when I went to doing social media full time, I probably ended up training less because I was like, I've got too much time on my hands. Um, and I think I was the least happy when I was just doing social media. Um, I don't think anyone should just do social media as a job. Um, I did online coaching alongside it, which definitely helped. But now I've got SAP, it feels like I have my corporate job back in terms of the structure of my life, but I still have my own autonomy because we're the co founders and so and social media just complements whatever I do with SAP. Um so yes, there's a lot, there is a lot to juggle, definitely. But there's a saying where it's like, don't complain about being full when you ask for a full plate or something like that. So I was like, that's kind of always what I wanted anyway. Um and I wouldn't change it for the world. But I would be lying if I said this marathon pop didn't get the best of me in terms of like being very tired by the end of it.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah, I can imagine. I think as well, it's like, I don't know if you're one of these people, but you probably strike me as somebody that is like this, and I definitely am myself. Like, probably operate better when you're full. Like when your plate is full, you operate better because it's like you're I don't know, it feels like you're you're much more efficient and you're on that treadmill of life rather than I think sometimes when you take a step back, which I know you have to do from time to time, it does it feels difficult to then reset and start again. Um I sometimes just think being in that process is better.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Well, it's Parkinson's law, isn't it, where like the work expands to fill the time available. Um and for me, that's definitely the case. Whereas when my calendar is like jam-packed with calls, I know that I have to do everything within a certain time frame. So yeah, like 100% I'm way better when I'm busier. To an extent, obviously, like you've still got to be careful of burnout, and I've definitely been on the precipice of that quite a lot. But as long as you're self-aware enough to understand your body and how you're feeling, that's the important part.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Take me back to like the corporate worlds that three, four years ago that you said before you kind of switched up and and got to the place where you decided to do social media for the full time full time and then kind of taking a step back as well. But we'll focus on that first transition in the first instance. Um, what was that like jacking in something that you've been doing for a while and then you know going to something that is kind of new?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

So I think like most professions, you kind of tie a bit of your identity to what you're doing. So I was an accountant in like MA at PwC for like three years. Um, and I quit 30 days before I was actually meant to qualify. So I'd done like two years of really intense exams. But about four years ago, I lost my dad quite unexpectedly. Um, and it kind of gave me a bit of like a fucking mentality. And in my head, it was like the corporate door was always revolving, I can always go back. But like, what else is out there? And at the time, social media was kind of like starting to kick off a little bit, all these run clubs were forming, and I started making friends who were in the space, and I was like, Well, what's the worst that can happen if I start social media? Um, I've always kind of had this thing where I don't care too much what people think about me. And I was like, What like if I don't start now, I'll regret it in like a year's time. So I started doing socials alongside corporate. Um, and then I got my PT qualification at weekends whilst I was working in corporate during the week as well, because I knew I wanted to transition away in some way or form, and initially it was to be a full-time PT. And then social media just started getting bigger and bigger and started doing really well. And I decided to take a career break whilst it was growing, but with the intention was always to go back to work, and then the page blew up overnight, and then I was just like, okay, well, I can always go back to corporate, but I don't know how long I'll be able to do this for. So left corporate, went to do social media full-time alongside being an online coach, which I really loved for about a year and a half. And then when you're in social media, like I think it's the best and worst job in the world, is how I would describe it, in terms of the opportunities are insane, genuinely. Like you get ridiculous trips paid for paid for. Um, the money can be quite lucrative if you pick the right brands, and it just seems like it's great from the outside, but like internally, no one should have their self-worth tied to an algorithm that they can't control. And I am one of them people where if social media wasn't my job, I probably wouldn't have the apps, like I would have just deleted them and just lived my life. Um, but I have built a community that I love on social media, and inevitably it is an incredible tool to leverage a business. And so when I met my business partner in January, this is a whole tangent now, but like when I met him in January for to start SAP, it would just felt like all the stars had aligned. Because I was getting essentially what I wanted before, which to have a business, which I love and I'm very passionate about, and social media complements that, but it's not my be-all end all.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah, and I guess it's it's now looking back at the journey, I guess, over the four years, it kind of feels like each step had to happen to get to the point you are at now, kind of thing. Um, which is must be quite um satisfying looking back because you know, there have obviously been, and people that have followed your journey, there have been incredibly difficult moments over that time as well, up and downs and um decisions that you've had to make and stuff like that. Like, what what is it like reflecting back on those on those last four years?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I I don't regret anything. Um I was very happy with that. I think I made a real ages ago about there's like two main components in life, which is like chance and luck. Um, and luck is one of the things where things can just fall into your feet. Um, but chance is where you actually kind of grasp it with two hands and like go full like all in on it. And I think I I'm not very risk-averse anymore, so I will just take risks and sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, but I would rather take the chance. Um because what I think once you've experienced loss, like I had with my dad, I'm kind of like in my head, I that for me is rock bottom. Like that is like losing a family member is one of the worst things that can happen to you. So me kind of going for something and missing the goal or like starting a business and it not working out comparatively is nowhere near as bad as losing someone. So I I just kind of like yeah, grasp life with its draws, by its draws, by its horns.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Both work, I think. Um I think you know, you you mentioned your dad, and it's something I obviously wanted to touch on, and it's something you've spoken about very openly and kind of how how grief is different for everybody and you know, the forms it can take. How do you like what where are you at with that now? Because I I I would imagine there's still incredibly difficult days and moments that you still struggle with four years on.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah, definitely. I think my grief was probably very delayed. It was quite a sudden moment when I lost my dad, and I definitely just buried my head in the sand for probably the first year and a half or so afterwards. Um and so I still have periods where I'll I'll break down and I won't be able to kind of like function or work. It tends to be quite seasonal, so it's around either when he passed away or like his birthday or Christmas or something like that. Um and I found it took me a while to open up to people that but then when I did, it helped so much. Um, and it became a big component of like my social media when I initially started doing it because I wish I had someone at the time who was posting like that, who I could be like, oh my god, I actually relate to everything that you're saying. And I didn't have that. Um, but obviously as your life progresses, like time does heal, not everything, but like as your life gets bigger, the grief does just get a bit smaller. Um, and there's someone told me this theory the other day, it's called like the glitter theory. Um, it's basically like when you first lose someone, glitter just sprays everywhere, and everything reminds you of the person that you've lost, but then over time, like the glitter becomes a bit more sparse, and then when you do see it, it's more like a oh my god, that's like a lovely memory that I remember having about my father or mother or whatever. Um, and it reminds you of the good times, and I feel like I'm in that period. Um, there's never a day that goes by where I don't think about him, but it's I've definitely got better at when leaning into the feelings when I have them.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

And I I I'd also imagine that you know that that glitter theory is so interesting, but you each piece of glitter probably has a piece of glitter in the first instance as well. Do you know what I mean? Like you you get into a memory, and then that memory has memories, and then it's probably very easy to go down that rabbit hole and and not be able to get back out of it. So yeah, I'm I'm sure you've put things in place that that help that and and like have helped you cope with it over the years. And you mentioned sort of speaking about it and sharing, and that has probably been a massive part of it with friends and and family as well, I would imagine, but also on socials. And when you are seeing those people coming back to you with stories and that relatability to what you're sharing, what what is that like for you as somebody that has has been through it himself?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

I I'd say it's changed. Um, when I first started posting about it, it was quite cathartic because I it was basically like a digital diary, and it allowed loads of people who had also lost their parents to kind of have a similar like stance to you, and there's solace in knowing you aren't alone with these things. Um, but when I first started posting about it, I would get thousands and thousands of DMs, people of people telling me them story their stories, and I read every single one of them. It was hard to reply to all of them, but I did read them all. Um and I didn't really think about it at the time, but then when I had my therapy with my therapist, she was kind of like, it's amazing that you're reading them, but ultimately that's more trauma that is reminding you of your experience. And so at that point, I was like, Okay, well, that's actually really interesting. And I didn't want to like grief is a massive component of my life, but I didn't want it to dominate it. I didn't want to be known and like I didn't want to be seen as just like always talking about grief because my life is so much bigger than everything, just that, even though it is the foundation of everything that I've done since. Um so I think now like people definitely still message me when I post like stories or a reel about how I'm feeling. Um but it's less frequent because I don't post about it as much. Um because it's just when I'm feeling like that, and I don't just want to do it for like performative reasons.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah. And it that piece about you know people coming to you, it's like people putting extra and they're they're everybody's doing it in a very positive way, I'm sure. But it is like you just put in that extra like 0.1 of a kilogram on your shoulder. Do you know what I mean? I th I guess in the first instance it probably does feel like that, and then it it does add up to a huge weight when thousands and thousands of people are doing that.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

So it's a message, isn't it? The messages were beautiful, genuinely. Like I I loved reading them. People were it, they were so heartfelt, but yeah, it was just it got to the point where you I was just like, I I actually have to put myself first sometimes and just separate myself from this a little bit. Um but yeah, I've I've got some friends who are doing some amazing stuff with Krieg communities like Misha Grimes. Um I have so much.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Misha's been on before, and um yeah, her stories like that her episode of the podcast, I would say go and catch up on if you're interested in this part of James's story as well, because yeah, she's she's fantastic, isn't she? And and her community that she's she's built as well is is unbelievable. Um what would he have thought about all this, man?

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Like who you are, what you've become, the man you are today. I th I think he'd be proud no matter what, to be honest. Um, my dad was always my dad's always been quite entrepreneurial. Um, so he was self-employed since he was like 29. So I think he'd love that element. And I I would love to be able to speak to him about like the struggles he faced. And I feel like there was there's so many conversations that we just didn't have because at the time I was still only like 24 when I lost him. Um but I I think he'd be very proud.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Talk to me about SAP then, because I feel like we've mentioned that a couple of times, and uh yeah, I think it's a cool thing to bring into this conversation as well. Um, as you said, you kind of met your business partner, and everything has kind of led to the place where you're at now, and it's kind of the intersection of business and passion, I guess. Um yeah. How how did the idea first come to fruition? And I guess in the first instance, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Okay, yeah. I've got to give a brief history of time of SAP. So myself and Connor, who's my business partner, met in Cape Town last January, and we both just turned up to a run together, like for the first time meeting. It was like a 20k run or something, and we just both like had a banana in our hand. And we were like, okay, well, something's obviously going on here. And we just kind of spoke and we both disliked gels. Um, we're both quite whole foods-based people, so we like minimally minimally processed foods. And Connor's Canadian, so hence the maple syrup. And just to give context, SAP is basically an energy gel for running, but it's just maple syrup and Himalayan salt. Um and so we were talking, and basically, we know it's not a revolutionary product. There are products out there that are already like this, and there's anecdotal evidence that triathletes, ultrarunners, trail runners have been using maple syrup and Himalayan salt concoctions for years. Um, but we were like, no one who most people who are in the space of running might know that it's an option, but the general population who really struggle with gels do not. And so we were like, okay, there's like three pillars to what a gel is, which is like, what's its identity? Is it clean? Is it effective? And all the gels kind of hit two of these three pillars. So like Morton, for example, you identify as an athlete and it's effective, but it's not clean in the sense that it only has like two ingredients. So we were like, well, let's be the first ones to hit all three of these pillars where you identify as a runner, it's clean because it's two ingredients, and it works in the same way that normal gels do in terms of like the glucose-fructose ratio and providing energy during your runs. And for myself and Connor, like there's a massive underfueling issue in running. And we were kind of like the best gel is the one that you take every time without thinking about it. Um, and like obviously for elite athletes, they might want, like, so for example, Kipchogee and Morton, if he's taking that, then it's going to trickle down into everyone else. But for most people who are just training, they just want to feel good, they want their gut to be fine, they want to enjoy taking a gel because the more they fuel, the better they'll perform, and the more they'll the like the more they'll improve. Um, so SAP was kind of work like creative on that premise is if you aren't even thinking about fueling because you love taking it, then that's like a big barrier from like the running community removed.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Do you remember? Uh, I don't know if you've ever seen or know of uh Lionel Sanders, you know, the triathlete. Do you know who he is? I remember he went through. Maple fan. Yeah, he is a big maple fan. Big maple fan. And um, yeah, I remember I remember watching one of his videos a couple of years ago. And as somebody that's done like loads of stuff in the space um from like events, marathons, ultras, whatever, I didn't even know it was a thing. Like I was like, uh, but do you know, do you know, like those things that you're like, well, this makes so much sense, but why have I never just thought of that before? Like, why can't I just have that instead of having that?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Like it is that was that was the gap in the market was that there's not much of an educational piece. Like people who are really in the running community know this stuff exists, and they might then choose what their fuel what fuel they want to use, depending on whether it works for them or the science behind it. But most people who are running just want to take something that feels good, um, is why we started doing it.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

But yeah. Yeah, well, if it sounds interesting to you, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, you know what, I want to give that a crack. I know like James obviously got all of his of the links and everything on his socials, so just head over there and check it out. Um and uh and yeah, I mean it's it's a really cool product, it looks class, so mate, I I know it's it's going really well as well. Um just going back to kind of the social media piece, and and something that I really enjoy that you do, that not everybody does is kind of and you've meant the mentioned the sort of catharsis sometimes of what it was like and when you were going through that period of grief putting out content. But you do, and you are very good at telling little stories almost each time you do post something. There's obviously thought that goes into things and um using it a little bit as a digital diary. And I would imagine when you're when you're doing that, even with the marathon one last that you've just put together, like when you're putting those pieces together, it forces you to reflect, it forces you to think about it probably more than most people do. Um do you find that's quite an interesting process almost like putting these things together and reflecting on the moments?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Definitely. Um, I think at the start it was massively helpful, but content inevitably evolves um in terms of like what people want to consume, what they want to see, what you actually want to produce as a content creator. And so I think, for example, there was a period where voiceovers became the be-all and end all of content. And at that point, it's very easy to be reflective and to create and narrate a story around how you're feeling. But then people kind of shifted, and now it's more focused towards like real IRL moments where you're like having experiences or you are just talking to the camera and having a conversation with people. So, like, I think the shift from scripted voiceovers to in real life moments where you're sharing these experiences and maybe being a bit introspective has meant that the storytelling element is actually more difficult now because you're trying to do it on a whim. Um, I think my content has definitely changed in terms of like that regard because I now much more prefer to speak to the camera and show my experiences than have a collage of videos from the past two, three years with a voiceover. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

What's easier? What's better? Voice over voiceovers.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Voiceovers are easier in terms of like scripting it and just doing it and like sitting down and bashing it out in two hours. Um, I think. Like doing it to a camera, I actually much preferred doing, and the editing is like easy once you do it, but the amount of times that you will mess up during doing it, because you like are you you mumble a word or you say something that you're not meant to say, whatever it might be. I think each has their own like pros and cons. Um I did love the voiceover periods, but I did just get bored of doing them. And I think once you get bored of your own content, that is then shown like to everyone else.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

And you said that you said something earlier on, which was um something I picked out, which was basically like you shouldn't put your your like self-worth, you shouldn't tie it to an algorithm, which you put like really coherently. Um, and I'd I'd not heard it being put like that before. Like, obviously the sentiment's been echoed, but that's a really nice way of summing that feeling up. Like, is there is there ever times that you still get those feelings? Like, why isn't this piece of content performed? Is it changing again? Like maybe people aren't as um, you know, they don't feel as connected to me.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, I think if a creator says they're never impacted by how their content performs, they are lying. They are lying. I think you just have to learn to like, you just have to learn to deal with it. I I'm quite a number, like number heavy person. I love quantitative information. So like having all of the data at my fingertips in terms of like the reach of audience, what my demographic is, the likes, the engagement rate, all that stuff at the start was just too much for me. And you start double guessing yourself when you create a video which you might love, but the algorithm does not love it, and so it performs significantly worse. And I think you've just got to realize that like if you love it, your audience should follow you for you. And so it should, regardless of whether it performs well or not, like just trust yourself. And you've got to realize that the content game, it ebbs and flows. Like some people will be at the peak of their game and they'll be so engaged, and then two months later, they can't get any views or whatever it is, and then um three months after that, they'll be back up at the top. And you've just got to realise like when you're in them lows, it's not, it might not, it won't stay like that. You've just got to push through and just stay true to yourself and post what you want to post. There's an element of like maybe having to adjust your strategy and like pivot into certain things, which can be scary, but it's really hard not to tie your self-worth to an Instagram, Instagram algorithm and like likes and popularity. Um but I think someone said to me, It's like, don't ever like unlike track how many people unfollow you or whatnot, because it's never a representation of who you are necessarily as a person. That person might have just woken up one day and been like, actually, I don't want to see James's content today, so I'm gonna unfollow him, and then they might follow me like three months down the line when they're like feeling better or something. And so once you remove yourself from like the unfollows, the number, it is quite liberating, but it's it still definitely gets me, like on the odd occasion.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

We had somebody called Lily Silverton on the podcast recently who's like a mind um coach expert, and she said something really interesting that I'd not really thought of before, which makes total sense. And then I was doing something in real life, and it kind of brought it into sharp focus of oh my god, yeah, like the unfollow thing that you just said. She was talking about like sometimes take yourself out of the person and put put try and put yourself in the other person. So put put yourself in your shoes, their shoes. Obviously, it's it's not that's nothing groundbreaking, but from a social media perspective, I had been, I've definitely seen people unfollow me before, and I've thought, you know, why's that happened? What have I done to offend you? And obviously, when you've not got an audience like you've got, it's even more mental. You're like, oh my god, like I know you, you like me. What's happening here?

SPEAKER_00 43:13

And then I think what people forget is that like you have your own autonomy, like social media actually should should be your created like curated feed. And if there's anyone who is like pissing you off for any reason at all, it doesn't even have to be the it can be the smallest reason ever. Just mute them or unfollow them. Yeah, yeah. Like it's really not that it's not that deep. And like, yeah, okay, for us, like it does take a second to actually realise it. But I think what you've just said in terms of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, that that helps massively. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Because I've I found myself unfollowing somebody the other day and I was like, Yeah, but I'm doing this because I just don't want to see it anymore. And they're probably just doing the same thing to me. And it's like, okay, that makes that makes that makes more sense.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Um also like you're never gonna please everyone please everyone. It is it's definitely made like, yeah, it is, it is. It's an amazing world, but it definitely has its downfalls. And yeah, social media just has to be a tool that you use rather than just just scrolling all the time.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Yeah, and it's like it's like you need to um just be very clear that it's not that thing that's tied to your identity. And I know we've mentioned identity before, but I think identity is actually like one of the most um probably underspoke about topics because it's the thing that is the is the thing that when stuff changes can be the reason why things can go downhill because you are thinking about I used to be that person, or I'm sure you've got people that are older in your family that say, I should have made this decision. And it's like you're tying who you are now to somebody you could have been or never were, and it's like it's still identity, and that's just so unhealthy and unhelpful. Um complicated.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

It was one of it was one of the first reels I did. Um, and actually to this day it's still one of my favorites. It was just like you should never ident like put your identity towards something like running. Well, you should your identity should be towards your values. So if you value hard work and persistency or like whatever it might be, that might be reflected in your identity, but it's not inherently tied to your identity, if that makes sense. So like I value hard work and consistency and like being up early and stuff like that. And if that makes me a good runner, then great. But being a good runner isn't tied to the identity, it's the values that bring the run runner out of me. And that helped me massively in that in that sense.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Yeah, I like that. It's almost tying values, like you can identify with values rather than your identity being a thing that can change. Like people tie their job to their identity, but a job can change. But what doesn't change is that you'll work hard and you're a nice bloke, like that that exactly which, yeah, that that does make sense. Um, as we move through now, mate, like obviously London's done, we're in the books. Um, I'm sure you've got plans. What you're saying, what's next? In terms of races. Well, yeah, well, whatever, whatever you fancy doing.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Like, what's going on? I think for me, I'm gonna put marathons in the back burner for a bit. I think I've promised myself that I would do one marathon a year and keep it at that. And to be honest, I absolutely love London. So it might just be that I just do London every year now that I have a good for age time. I much prefer the shorter distances, so I would love to get really quite quick on the 5k and 10k. Uh, I think they just suit my body type way more, and they're over in like 30 minutes or so, and you're you're you're recovered within like two days. So I think I've got some I would love to get sub 15, 5k in the next kind of like year and a half, um, and then long-term goal would be a sub 30, 10k, but I think that's still quite a while away. But yeah, I think that's my goal.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

That's nice to like have those those solid pieces, and I love the stuff I love the way that you said like I really love London, maybe it's just that every year, like just seeing you now flash forwards like 50 years, you being that old bloke that's the legend every single time crossing the line. That's what you want. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I just that's cloud. I know I I really, really love London, and it's always a it's always good. I think the the weather is always a bit mixed, so you never guarantee that. But for me, the experience of London outweighs everything else. So yeah, I think I'll just keep doing London.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

Where's um where's home originally? Are you from around sort of uh from Sheffield? Okay, so no, not at all then. Like right up north. So yeah, I was just wondering like, does it feel more special because it it is somewhere you've been your whole life? But obviously, it is now home, so it probably does just feel like you're running around home, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Yeah, it does. It really does. And like I know the streets, I know what to expect, like I just love that side. And I'm I'm a massive routine person, so like travelling to Chicago when I went in October, it just threw me being in a hotel room, not having food I'm used to. Whereas like just be able to be at home the whole time and then turn up to the race on race day just suits me.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

We'll wrap with this, man. But like it's it's been cool to kind of talk about the journey through London, but also like obviously we mentioned at the start, um, you know, it's the first one you've really enjoyed, you've really liked it, and there'll be plenty of people listening to this. I'm asking this for myself as well. Like uh, they're thinking, I haven't really enjoyed a marathon, I find them horrible. Like, what's the what's the like piece of advice, or what would you say to that person that is like still in that sort of marathon hole, wants to keep doing them, wants to keep trying to you know reach whatever goal they've got to reach, but hasn't had that feeling that you've had now quite yet?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I think it's probably quite tied to failure, and like once you get used to failing, it you you eventually you're gonna you're gonna succeed. It only takes one win for you to succeed. And so like I failed, I failed sub three like twice. I've failed so many different times in many occasions, like getting into university I wanted and stuff like that. And once you become accustomed to failure, eventually you're gonna win. Um, and just remembering that. But at the end of the day, like if you really don't enjoy Marathon running, don't do it. Like, actually, don't do it. And I was like, I kept telling myself, like, oh, next one, if I don't enjoy it, I won't do it. And it running just has that impact where like you love the tangibility of it and being able to see your like times improve. And it only takes one race, is what I keep telling myself. It literally only takes one race, and then everything's like turns on its head.