Mental Health Matters

CASEBOOK: Workplace Matters – Team Dynamics

• Dr Audrey Tang • Season 1 • Episode 39

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Building a thriving team isn’t a case of “one strategy fits all” – it can depend on the organisational purpose, resources and context – which is why we’re delighted to discuss the topic from different angles with Flora Nicholson.  Join the discussion.

Our CASEBOOK podcasts are previous recordings on a theme or topic – today we chat with Flora Nicholson who brings experience from C-Suite to third sector in how we can create the team culture that thrives.

 

 

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode (like this one) - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/p/Judith-Crosier-Presenter-61556005102240/

 

 

Guest Expert

Flora Nicholson

https://www.linkedin.com/in/flora-nicholson/

 

Employability insights from

Fern Overton

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fern-overton-9542071a3/ 


 

SPEAKER_04

Good morning and welcome to Mental Health Matters Office Hours. With me, Dr. Audrey Tang. My co-host is Judith Crozier, and today's topic is team dynamics. Now, teams are great and they can be wonderful for getting things done, but they can also become very fractious. And our guest today, Flora Nicholson, has worked in teams across so many different sectors, and we can't wait to hear what she has to say. Let's head over to the main studio.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome, Flora. Lovely to meet you. Before we sort of get into your work and what you do, can you give us an insight into your personal journey and how you came to be doing what you're doing?

SPEAKER_12

Thank you so much, and I'm so happy to be with you both today, and thank you so much for everyone who's watching as well. So, in terms of my journey, I've worked with a huge range of organizations, and I'm really privileged to have worked with some amazing people. So I worked for a multinational organization called Sodexo, which is a FTIC500 company, and I worked also with some of the most loved brands in the UK, so the British Right Cross and Cancer Research UK, and also I've worked with startups. And I have also experience working in parliament, both in a professional capacity, but also in a personal capacity as a human rights advocate. And I'm an artist outside of work, so I really love bringing together the kind of strategy element and the bravery of being a human rights advocate and also the creativity to bring people together. So that's why I'm so delighted to be with you today.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, fantastic. And regarding team dynamics, what would you say is universal about that, no matter what the sector?

SPEAKER_12

Thank you. It's such a good question. You know, when we think about team dynamics, it can feel really abstract. But actually, what's universal is how do you feel on Sunday night? You know how to work. Very good point. I think that's the one thing I would say. And that tells you everything you need to know about the kind of team that you're in, no matter what the sector is. How are you feeling? You have to go into a meeting online or offline with your colleagues. Are you feeling really like nervous and even nauseous? Or are you feeling like, great, you know, we're gonna sort something out together? And you have to really listen to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a really good point. That Sunday night feeling, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

It's absolutely true. And and so, with regards to that, you've advised teams and you've led teams. Is there a key difference between consultancy and advising and actually being part of them and being responsible for them? And how has that shaped your work?

SPEAKER_12

There is a huge difference, and I still remember when I moved to, I think the first five years of my career, I was more in advisory roles, and then I moved to you know more leadership positions and having my my first teams. And I had been you know advising people on how to write plans for years, but then when I have to actually make it happen, I remember that they were like, What do you mean that's my job? Like, because you know, something on paper you can edit, or you know, uh you can edit a PowerPoint, you can edit a document, but when it's with real people in real life and stuff goes wrong all the time, people may not want to do it or they may have different views, and it's completely different. And I think what I've learned from that is to just really work together with people to make sure that we make things happen together, because if you have people on board and good team dynamics, actually, you can make anything happen no matter what's happening, but if you don't, that makes everything complicated.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, and I think the communication is always something that comes up in every conversation we have. It's so important to communicate, and therefore you end up doing the right thing for that team. It may not work for other teams, but it works for that team because you know who they are. And so another thing that causes us problems for teams is in the current climate, there's financial constraints, people don't have budgets anymore. Is there anything, one thing, one thing that you would say teams should always find a way to prioritize when it comes to supporting well-being?

SPEAKER_12

Yes, I mean, you know, the financial constraints, I think everyone is feeling it right now, and I think we're feeling it at home and at work. So it's definitely, and and actually what I'm going to say just now, I think it works for both. It's something I learned from the right course, and it's the listening. You know, have you made space today to listen to your colleagues? And you know, if you start the meeting, are you going straight into especially when you're on Zoom actually or you're on you know online? It's much easier to say, okay, right, that's the agenda, and we start get started because we are always under pressure. And I think what I've learned is okay, let's step back and say, How are you today? And even if you sometimes can't see the person physically, you might just hear the voice, you're gonna pick up from their voice what they're saying and hear that, listen to that. It's that's the one thing I would want people to remember, right? Just make time to listen to people.

SPEAKER_04

That's beautiful. And something that we talk a lot about when it comes to communication. We all know about communication, but actually, communication is only as good as what's been heard. That's true. That's so true. Listening is absolutely the key. Uh, we are keeping you, Flora. We'll be back just after this.

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SPEAKER_04

We are speaking with Flora Nicholson on the topic of team dynamics. She has a wealth of experience in corporate non-profit startups and even in parliament. And so this is a really helpful discussion. If you've just tuned in, please go back because she's got two absolutely brilliant nuggets of wisdom which are so straightforward and yet we don't make time for them. That's true. And it's about making time for them. So yeah, go back and have have a listen. Um Flora, what what are some of the common issues that you see in teams today?

SPEAKER_12

You know, it's really I was thinking about this, and you know, I as we I speak to so many teams, I think what I've really seen is that people at the moment are really overwhelmed. And you know, the world is this difficult place right now, and when you speak to friends and colleagues, a lot of people say, you know, I haven't really slept really well, and I think everybody is struggling, and that's something that I'm hearing a lot. And in terms of my my background, so I'm seeing focused on strategy and performance management, and I think a lot of the time we are lacking that clarity of what it is we're supposed to do. So think about it. You might have a team that's really constrained and really doesn't have you should have a couple of people more, but there is no budget for it, and people have to deliver the same amount of work, and then plus whatever is happening outside of work, it's a lot for people to handle. So I think I would say it's really important for me to when I speak with this team was to think about how can you have that clarity of what can you, what you have the actual capacity to achieve. And if you can't do everything to have that conversation, it can be really hard, but to just really start there because like 90% of the time I see people are taking on too much, like way too much, and that just makes a lot of pressure for people. So to ease that pressure makes a huge difference to teams, and then when they can you know feel less pressure at work, they will feel better at home as well.

SPEAKER_04

It comes back to finding space again, doesn't it? It's that conversation, it's finding space to listen, finding the space to be able to put in the support that you actually need. Now I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works here, hybrid working, because it's all very well. You've you know created the space to listen to your teams, you've created the things that are gonna support your teams, but now you have remote teams where you you can't manage their time, they're managing their own time. How does that impact um the way that teams need to operate?

SPEAKER_12

I think it's a really I mean I don't think we we have necessarily the perfect solution, but I think in terms of remote work, that sense of disconnection can really be there. And I think a moment that really illustrates that, to say you have a really difficult meeting and you close the call, and that's it, you're on your own at home. And what are people going to do at that point? How are you going to know? Are they going to reach out to you? Are they going to sit there and cry and you're just not going to find out? And so I think it's about addressing it upfront, not pretend, well, you know, fingers chorus, it's all gonna be fine. No, no, no. Have this discussion with your team and say, if there is something difficult, please, you know, if you're the leader of that team or if you have really good colleagues, say, I'm here. And one of the kindest things somebody has said to me at work was one of my colleagues who said, Look, at the end of our induction, he said, I'm always here. You can always reach out to me. It doesn't have to be work, any issue, you know. And I think I've appreciated and I've used that in my meetings as well when I have inductions or in a meeting with clients. I'm like, look, I'm always here. Because you never know what people are, what's happening when you've people, and I think that's important to be able to reach out.

SPEAKER_04

Just sorry, I know you've got a question, Jude, but um, just to ask a little bit further on this one. I think a lot of good managers are doing that, but I think people, and I've seen this as well because I've had to consult in situations like this, people are still not reaching out. They they know that manager is there, and the manager's getting frustrated because the manager's going, I'm here, and I'm listening and I will create space, but they're not reaching out. So, how do we is that just about finding a different way to make a better relationship, or is there something else managers can be doing? Are there other platforms even that that could be open to staff to to reach out?

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, I mean, you know, it reminds me, I saw this really good uh cartoon yesterday, and the manager and the um you know and his team are having a discussion and it's come some kind of like uh performance review, and the manager says, Um, you know, I'm here for you, how can I help? You know, any problems? And the person is like, you know. I'm just gonna say, I think with that, I think it can be really hard. How are you going to be really open with the person who pays your rent helps you pay your rent? You know, I'm just saying I think we have to be open with that. So, what I would encourage people to do is if you are at work, you have people you can talk to who are not your manager. So, colleagues, you know, it doesn't have to be your boss, it can be somebody else, but you have to have one person, and if not, you have a good support network outside of work. Because you know, you can reach the phone, and you can, especially if you're at home, you can say, Okay, I'm having a small break and I'm gonna call somebody else, and you know, you can call parents, you can call a you know a friend. But I'm just saying get that support. So it doesn't have to be first of all, let's be really honest about it. It doesn't have to be your boss you reach out to, but reach out to someone, and then it can be also outside of work. I think that's important to have that around like full view things. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, good advice. Um have you got any personal success stories that you can share with us?

SPEAKER_12

Yes, I mean I think you know, in terms of team dynamics, just to illustrate this kind of because I'm really interested in the interplay between kind of outside of work and at work. And I had uh an experience where it was very difficult because I had just after, so I started freelancing seven years ago, and two weeks after winning my first contract, I had a really, really tragic family bereavement, like just really world-shattering bereavement. And I think at that time, you know, my my client at the time was so thoughtful, so thoughtful, and I had a little bit of time off work, but then I came back to work because again, you know, I needed money to leave, like it was the reality. And she said, Are you sure? And I said, I'm completely sure. I'm gonna, you know, pace myself, I'm completely sure. And it was a really successful project because we worked together. I knew my limits and my boundaries, I was acknowledging what I had been through. I didn't say, Of course I'm fine, which I wasn't 100% fine, but I was 50% fine, and we made that 50% go much further because we worked together, and actually it was 100% success in terms of the project, but that was I could not have done it alone, and I think I had to be, you know, even in the two weeks, even though I had only been with that client for two weeks, we had already that good relationship. So I'm saying build these relationships because the world is not always going your way, how things happen, and you need them, you need them to get through life.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, that's true. And if you hadn't have shared with your client, then that relationship might not have been so successful.

SPEAKER_12

And I'm not saying that we have to share everything, I'm saying like we have to have boundaries and we don't have to share everything around our lives, but sometimes something is really big. You don't have to explain what to do, but say something really difficult is happening and I need support. And if that support isn't there, demand it. Because you know, we have rights, we have the right to be supported, we have rights as human beings, it's really something that I'm passionate about. So make sure that that support is there, you know, always.

SPEAKER_04

I just reflect on that story, and I love that. Um, it's you you won a contract, so this was a freelance.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You see, I think that's so important for people to hear because freelancers are always like, no, I just have to be 100% all the time. I will hide everything because that's and it's so heartening to hear that, Flora. So I'm really glad you shared that one with us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_12

You know, and this, I think as freelancers, I mean, work is you know can be really hard no matter how but when you're freelancing that contract at the beginning, because it was my first contract, it was really some kind of day rate. If I failed something that I wouldn't continue the next day. So I'm just saying that actually that kind of um not knowing, not having that visibility, it adds pressure, but I still had to be open because I knew I would fail. If I wasn't open, and I think that's an extra pressure, it's important to be honest. And I think you will meet good people, you will meet people who have your back, and so trust them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think you're right, that's really important to say. Um thank you. Um so with team building, what simple kind of low-cost strategies have you seen that build a really good team culture?

SPEAKER_12

Um, so one of the things I really loved that I did with one of my teams. Um, so it was I I joined a team, it was quite a big team, actually, uhbound 14 people. And when I joined, the morale was really low, the team had been to had been a restructure, um, the work of the team wasn't valued at the time, and it was very difficult. And one of the things we started doing in team meetings was to say uh have five minutes of um once a month inspiration time. So it every member of the team would be leading in turn and say, What inspired you? What's any story, any sector, and share this. Honestly, I still remember some of these stories today. It's just it's it doesn't cost anything. Literally, you find you have the internet, well, it can be any sector, it can be somebody finding a lost pet after 20 years, you know, like whatever, but like you will feel so much better and you will carry these stories with you. Like it's just and as I said, it's very possible.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, it's so simple, but really effective if you can still remember the stories now.

SPEAKER_04

I think we just we need to start our shows with that. Yeah, yeah. I love that we were close today with that because such a great, such a great idea. Oh Flora, we're we're keeping you and we'll be back just after this.

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SPEAKER_04

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters Office Hours. We're here with Flora Nicholson and we are talking about team dynamics. There are so many lovely things that you can do to improve that team culture that don't have to cost loads. And this is really important to recognise because we know, we know that as consultants we can talk to people with money to spend, and that's absolutely great if you've got that. But so many teams that need a bit of support can barely keep themselves going to keep the lights on in their building. And yet, these are some simple, simple tips and tools which are really easy to implement that can really boost the team. So if you've just tuned in, go and have a listen. Now, Flora, you have been working on you you use something called the Karma Framework, and this was developed by the British Red Cross. How is this framework helpful for teams that are going through maybe a difficult period, not necessarily a toxic time?

SPEAKER_12

Thank you. Um, so the KMR framework is absolutely amazing, and it's really helped me uh, you know, in my career and also at home. Um, so I think the KMR framework, what's really important to remember, is it's a framework that was developed to help people going through a crisis, and they might be in shock. And you know, how are you going to support someone who's been through whatever they've been through, something very difficult? So it's really relevant for teams. And the main thing that people can take away from it is people are the experts of their own experience, so they will actually have resources within them to face whatever they're uh going through. It's not your job to fix whatever situations because sometimes you know I'm supporting people in war zones, I can't fix it, I would like to go back on. But my job is to listen, and I'm just coming back to that listening because this is really critical to really listen and to make create the space for people to feel supported, and then in time they will be feeling able to, you know, return return to a normal life or you know do the next right thing. But actually, I'm just saying having the space to listen to someone, it can really change the whole situation.

SPEAKER_04

Do you mind taking us through the acronym of of what each of those elements means? Is that possible at all?

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, actually, um I'm not really good with memorizing. That's okay, that's okay. Or if you can point us to where we can have a look at that. I think I was basically trying to memorize it before today, and then when I get nervous, I forget. But I think it is definitely the video is online. It's very easy for people to access on YouTube. So if you go through on YouTube, you will find the um Calma video from the right course, and everything is explained.

SPEAKER_04

So I didn't want to try and get it wrong. So yeah, no, completely understand because I know, I know we all remember so many acronyms that it's just I'm not gonna wing it because it's too important to get it right.

SPEAKER_12

So, but that's what I would say in terms of the important thing is to it's not your job to fix the situation and make sure that you take the list.

SPEAKER_04

It it it is about, yeah, the framework is there for it's developed for war zones, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_12

So it's it's for people in crisis, whatever our situation uh so I've I've used it with people you know who've been um in a war zone themselves, um like living in a war zone, or I've used it for people who have been maybe through a road accident, I've used it with friends going through separation and divorce, like you know, you can and I've used it at work when there is a restructure. So loads of different situations that you can use it for.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And I think that's just important to recognise because exactly like you said, Flora, when you're in something like a war zone or a crisis, you can't fix it. And I think a lot of times when we try and help, we're actually thinking about fixing rather than helping. And the karma framework is there to remind us to help with what we can, with the resources we can rather than fix. And so that that is really important. I'm I'm so I'll put the notes where we can find the link. Um so what can teams do? And this is something that you talked about earlier about the personal life and the professional life being part of the same person. But what happens when personal relationships or stresses that are outside of work begin to impact on those team behaviors and team dynamics?

SPEAKER_12

It's so important to reflect on because I remember, you know, I was talking about derivatives earlier and I had another, you know, experience where I was going through a very difficult um time personally, and my my manager at the time it was really like just really, really hard. And and um my manager came in and she said, Oh, we'll just catch up on the personal stuff later, you know. And it was still today, honestly, this is nearly 20 years ago actually now, but it was so difficult to feel like it was completely dismissed. So I think the first thing I would say would be acknowledge what's there and analog it to yourself. That's the starting point. Your colleagues may not know about it or may not, you know, but I think to analyze it, personally, I think that's for a personal thing. The other thing I would say is when there is something worldwide that's very difficult, you might be watching war news on TV, and different members of the team might be affected differently, might often differ from you know fraction that are at war. But I think to manage that as a team, you can't pretend it's not happening, and there has to be really important discussions led by the I think uh members of the team to say, look, this is how we're going to address this, and how we're going to respect each other, and we're going to create space too. And that's why for me I'm passionate about human rights because let's just make sure that we respect, you know, we treat each other with respect at all times. We may disagree on some things, but we're always going to be respectful to each other. And I think that is really fundamental.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's really important. Um, what about if teams might contain married couples or family members? Does that change the sort of the dynamic and and the team building aspect of it?

SPEAKER_12

Yes, you know, it's a really good question. I think basically everything, everything happens, like every every aspect of life impacts work, even what you have for breakfast. So, yes, if a co two colleagues are married or um I've worked in a situation where it was um you know um mother and son working together, and I was part of that team. Um and actually what was interesting in that case was that uh it tended to be that actually the mother tend to be harsher on her son because she wants papers, and actually with that I was really happy because we uh we had clarity on the work, and I think that helped to manage to say, okay, analyze that dynamic is there, and if you know if that's the case, we can say, well, look, it sounds like this person is being treated differently, just be open about it. You know, we're often afraid to have these conversations, but find the words, be respectful, be diplomatic, but say, hey, it's a bit awkward, and just just start from there. It's weird.

SPEAKER_11

Like, you know, you don't have to have it all worked out, but just start the conversation. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a big deal either, does it? Just chat.

SPEAKER_02

That's all right, and like you say, where you started, everything comes back to communication. It does, doesn't it? Yeah, communication listening, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, this has been brilliant. Um, thank you. Where can we find out more about you, Flora?

SPEAKER_12

So you can find out more um about me on LinkedIn. So I've been working on this new series called Let's Keep Braver, and I really want people to feel like empowered because we can have so many difficult times and so many difficult discussions. But I recently won a discrimination case against a 200 million organization, and that taught me so much about finding our voice, and so I'm helping other people to do that. So, yeah, on LinkedIn, that's when I've been the most active.

SPEAKER_04

Brilliant, thank you. Amazing. Well, we are gonna keep Flora for our business boost because she's gonna give us all an exercise to try, and we'll be back just after this.

SPEAKER_12

So, an exercise that I can really recommend that I've been uh doing Teams and practicing for myself is you can even do it straight away. So grab a piece of paper and a pen or use your phone to take notes or your laptop. So it's called the circle of support. And write down three things that help you when things are tough. So it could be one person that you really love, maybe one piece of music that you want to listen to, and maybe one story that really inspired you, a book or a film that somebody goes into adversity, and then oh my god, they they went through it and really you know overcame. So these three things, you can do it for yourself, but then you can do it as a team, and then you can share what you're comfortable with. So then you're inspiring each other and you can create a bigger list. And you can even do it with friends or family, because we all have tough times, and that means that then you have these resources that when things are hard, you know, you can really get back to it. And it's just a reminder that you're not alone, that there are people and things that you can turn to, and you can always come back to them. So you have that list with you, and then when you need it, it's gonna be there.

SPEAKER_02

What a fun discussion! It was really, really lovely. We've both worked in teams, and so an awful lot of what Flora was saying resonated, especially with me anyway.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and certainly some of the things that um she was suggesting to be solutions or or get people on the way to build team culture are so easily implemented.

SPEAKER_02

I know, and I don't know about you, but I've worked in places where there've been big team discussions and things get very complicated and money's involved and time out of work. But what Flora say was just so simple and so easy.

SPEAKER_04

And going back to your money is involved, time out work, etc. Is that has it changed anything?

SPEAKER_02

No, well, it just makes it worse, and certainly myself cause resentment, you know, and stress.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I think this is where we do sometimes need to a reminder to go back to basics, reminder to just go back to well, what gives us a bit of joy? Yes. And and if we have happy people who are inspired and positive, then maybe that makes a difference. But it's definitely one of those things, team dynamics is a common subject on this show. So we're gonna jump over to one of our previous guests to talk about their experience of being in teams.

SPEAKER_13

So it starts at the recruitment process. So there is an application form that I've devised myself that is purely on values based. So you tell me how you're gonna uphold my values in what you expect to do as the role, and then if that's successful, then it's about a practical interview, so they have to come and deliver something practical to a focused group of clients, and the clients are very much involved in the recruitment process. And then I will just sit and have a chat with you for half an hour. I want to know everything about you, I want to know your life story, what your hobbies are, I know everything because you know you can get a really good feel for somebody just by having a conversation. Yes, and also making them feel like you want them to be there, like I've said before, like recruitment processes are so oh just sterile in most places. Like you send your CV off, you don't hear anything back. You do an application for you don't hear anything back. You have an interview, you don't hear anything back, just making them feel, even if it's a no, I really liked you, but for now it's a no. I wish you all the best. If you want any more feedback, I'll happily give it to you. I've got the time to do that, and then I am very much involved with the setup of each individual centre. Mainly because I'm a control freak, but secondly, because I want my new staff to know I am present, I am there, I am present. You're not doing this alone. This is me, my heart and soul that you're carrying through. So I'm gonna be here with it for as long as you need me to be. And yeah, it's it's touch wood, has worked beautifully so far. I've got three day centres in separate locations, all with different centre managers, all with different sets of team, and it's lovely, it's working, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_13

I think the first one should be to pay your staff what they're worth. There is a living wage out there that is set as a minimum. There's nothing to say you can't pay more than that, and I'm very proud to say that I will always pay more than living wage for my staff. Second thing would be time off. Everybody needs to step away. As a business, it doesn't cost me any more money to give my staff more holidays. So I am also very proud to say my staff get seven weeks' holiday a year, and they will always get seven weeks' holiday a year as a minimum. And then the third thing would be just be nice, love your staff, love who they are, what they do for you, and that will show in their work as well.

SPEAKER_04

Well, the thing about teams is there are inevitably problems in teams.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there always will be.

SPEAKER_04

And one of the things, um, Lencioni did a book on the five dysfunctions of teams, but the very, very top of the pyramid is lack of trust. And I think that's a huge thing. If you can't trust people to do their job or do what you said or do what they said they'll do, it's I think that makes it really hard. And and I think that's certainly one of the things that I've experienced as working in schools as well. You couldn't trust that the senior staff would actually listen to you and take your complaint seriously.

SPEAKER_02

So interesting that you say that because I found I've had the same experience working in schools. It's not the people that you work with or the teaching assistants in the class, it's always the senior staff that, you know, maybe don't do what they say they're gonna do or don't support you in the way that they say they will. That's interesting. It's management, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

A lot of that can be management and and and relying on that. And if we don't, if we can't trust that, yes, then there isn't this is why I brought up the point about the open door policy why people don't go. And maybe there is something about the manager trying to forge a better relationship with the team who isn't going to their door for whatever reason. But sometimes, even if you're a great manager, a lack of trust in the past will stop people going to speak to you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely, and that that reputation kind of then then spreads, doesn't it? Um, but personally, for me, that's why I left teaching, because I couldn't trust my senior managers and the senior leadership team, and so that's they lost a good teacher.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, exactly. And relating to why we can't trust them is it's not just a bad experience, and there can be that. So there can be deliberate behaviours where you go, right, well, there's no point going to them because I can't trust they're gonna do anything about it. But also, if you as the manager or the leader are so remote, so we don't see you, there's genuinely no point saying my door's always open because we don't know where to find your door.

SPEAKER_02

You know, yeah, I mean that's that could be that could be the yeah, that could be the the whole issue, can't it? It could be that I mean, talking about schools, I haven't only just working in schools, but talking about that, the the head teacher or the head, you know, the principal, whoever, can be so remote that no one ever sees them because they're always in meetings and they're not they're not there.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um anyway, it's yes, it's a it's an age-old problem and it doesn't change.

SPEAKER_04

And I think it's easier to trust people when they're present.

SPEAKER_02

Of course, and if they actually show up and do what they say, do they what they say they're going to do. That's what trust is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

So on that, Flora gave us a great exercise in Business Booth, which we're gonna try now. So this is the three people that or three things that support you when you're feeling down. Any things that spring to mind immediately or any that you have to think through?

SPEAKER_02

There's two that spring to mind immediately. I've spoken about one of them before. So in a work situation, the first person I would go to would be my husband to talk to talk to him about it because he's so um he's not he's not a talkative person, but he's he'll listen and he's he's so insightful, he's so good at at seeing a whole situation and seeing a potential solution. Yeah. And some are out of left field, and I'll go, oh my god, I never thought of that. Yes, he's so good. Yeah, so he's my go-to. And then the other thing, which I talk about a lot, which is taking my dog for a walk in a yeah, a green space, because that gives you the the sort of the space and the time to think.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yeah, I like that. Well, what would you do? Yeah, same thing. Um, work issues, my husband, easiest to do because it's a different perspective. We because we think so differently, yeah, it really helps. Yes. And actually, sometimes if he then even validates what I've been thinking, in a way it's kind of like, oh, okay, so someone with a completely different perspective can also see that point. Exactly. Or he will say, Well, actually, no, I think in this particular case, this is how that could have been read. And it's kind of oh yeah, there's a whole other perspective that I just hadn't considered. So it's it's an outside person. Yes. He doesn't work with me, he's not involved in the same situation. I think that helps.

SPEAKER_02

But he's honest enough to be able to look at it from both sides, and he's not afraid to say, actually, that other person could be right. Same with my husband, so I they sound very similar. Yes, yeah, yeah. In that way, we we get the truth. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

So again, it's finding that person, so you who who you turned to for support. It's the right person for the right context as well. So I noticed we both said work.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yes, because he wouldn't necessarily be my go-to for other issues.

SPEAKER_04

My support one is similar to yours, it's about getting the headspace. I play meditation videos on YouTube, guided meditations. Okay. And I used to do them in the morning, so when this is years ago now, this is when my dad was in hospital over COVID and everything. And I it's really funny when I think back on it, I still get the physical feeling of the weight of the worry. And um but I used to just go on the treadmill, play the video, you know, just whatever positive meditation it would be. And it just helped me get through that day. Amazing. And I think that, and I still do it, so if I'm faced with a any sort of difficult situation, could be a work one, it could be something else, but I just want to get the headspace. I'll find a nice video of a voice that I like, because you don't like all the voices. So find one you like, find one who says the sort of things that you like to hear, because some do it very much about clearing your mind, that doesn't work for me, but I like the ones that say, so what's your ideal life like? Now imagine this, imagine that. Great, that suits me, but they're free.

SPEAKER_02

And coupled with the exercise as well, you're gonna get all sorts of just space to do it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so I think Oh wow, that's so interesting. But those would be again, it's two. I third, I think I'd be really I'm still thinking.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's it's funny because two uh I think they're just my go-to, and I that would be enough. It's like I don't think I need I don't think I need anymore.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. So I think that this is exactly what we say on the show. If those things work for you, yeah, stick with them until they don't work anymore, and that's when you need to you don't have to reinvent the wheel if it isn't broken, you know. No, that's right. So that's a nice support one, and then she gave us another exercise of just that team culture, and that's one thing that inspired you today. So that's what we're gonna play with to close the show. One thing that inspired you today.

SPEAKER_02

Gosh, what has or in the last couple of days, yeah. Just trying to think what's inspired me. Um, I think um so it won't mean anything to anyone because you you don't know my niece, but my niece, she um she just struggles sometimes with with everyday life. Um but she's she's recently set up her own business and she's she's really doing really, really well. And she's going travelling as well by herself. So that's just inspired me because she's really sort of fought, not demons as such, it's not that bad, but fought some internal struggles. Yeah. Um, and she's yeah, she's kind of like come through the other side, and yeah, so she's inspired me.

SPEAKER_04

That's lovely. I have two actually this week, and and and one happens every week, so that I guess. And I used to get that when I was teaching, um, because I taught drama year that when I taught year seven, it's in particular year seven, because they're so creative.

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04

Just every day, something they come up with something weird and wonderful, and I'd be like, oh my goodness, I never even thought that could but great, and I I miss that. Yeah, but I teach dance, and every week my girls inspire me because of I throw something at them and they do it, and it's like, oh my god, this looks so much better than it was in my head. And this week we focused on delivery, like real performance, you know, face and not just doing the steps, but selling the show.

SPEAKER_02

It's so hard for so many people.

SPEAKER_04

So hard, so hard. And enough people had said to me, Oh, how'd you do it? that I thought, let's do a silly song. And it was brilliant. It was utterly brilliant. Their faces, their performance, I can pick out something from every single person where I was just laughing at it. It was brilliant, it was supposed to be funny, it was a silly song. The choreography was silly, deliberately so that no one feels then silly doing anything else on top of that. Um, and I showed the dances to my husband, even he was like, Yeah, that that was really delivered. That and I that was great. I want to see more of that. That's really brilliant. But another thing which was really silly, and this is a very personal thing. I walk the dog every morning with my husband, and we see this now, it's a new term. So there's a new um girl who waits for her transport to come. She waits with her mum and she goes to a specialist school. And a few days before sort of end of last week, uh my husband said to me, Oh, I think she's waving at the dog. And you know, and then we realised that because she they've got a dog as well. Um, and then a few days ago, we actually crossed paths and we said hello, and she turned round and she did that to me, and I waved back, and then as we walked past, um, my husband said to me, She wasn't waving at the dog, and I was just like, oh my goodness! She was waving. She was waving at me.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's so cute.

SPEAKER_04

And I just thought, yeah, it was I just I have no idea why. Now I now of course now there's pressure because now I have to make sure I see her away. I will do a call, but you know, I just don't want her to think I'm ignoring her. Because when it wasn't, I thought I just love waving at the door, that lovely little smile is really sweet, but now it's gonna be like, oh my god, I must, I must see her. And of course, the the bus, I know sometimes we're we actually cross ladies, and the bus has got cloud windows, and I can't see her if she is waving. So I always smile at this bus now.

SPEAKER_02

I'm just picturing you on the on the camera, just malignedly waving at the bus.

unknown

Randomly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But and it was just it was I think it was just my husband kind of going, Oh it's you. It wasn't the dog.

SPEAKER_02

But that's really, really connection with the big thing. Yeah, just really, really strange.

SPEAKER_04

Because that you know, I've never really spoken to her, but of course you say hello.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But yeah, and that just it was very, I think it was moving as much as it was inspiring actually. But yes, so it's it's nice to have those moments, I think. And and I do see how Flora says just mentioning some something that's just made you smile makes such a difference.

SPEAKER_02

So I think what that does is it kind of gives it gives um a depth to a team member that you might not know very well. It just it just lets you in a little bit more and get and you get to know, you get to get a sense of how they think and feel about stuff a bit more.

SPEAKER_04

I have you done escape rooms.

SPEAKER_02

I never have, but I know that you do a lot of them. We used to, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's got very expensive nowadays.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

But but I used to run a team dynamics um session using escape rooms, and what I found there was the escape room, because it gives you puzzles of all different, and it's not just maths or languages or anything, there can be all kinds of different ways of thinking. Okay. What I found was members of the team who say nothing, people don't even know they exist, suddenly they can do a puzzle. The whole teams around them go, how did you do that? How did you do that? And then they, you can see them as they explain it. They're so proud of that. Oh yeah. And they've got space to talk and they're listened to. Yeah. And so I think that it then goes back to the communication. By sharing something that you has inspired you, you've been given space to talk, and people have taken the time to have the space to listen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. It's such a small, simple thing that can have a big impact on everyone. I think it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so on that, we hope you have a very healthy week and healthy team.

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Dr Audrey Tang

Host