Building Care and Respect for our bodies (of all sizes)

This is one of the most eye-opening discussions we’ve had on our show.  We’re joined by Dr Kat Schneider of the Centre for Appearance Research to discuss the importance of appreciating and celebrating Body Diversity, and Body functionality…and why living in a larger body is not something to have to explain!  Plus – she explores why health interventions at the individual level are not enough.

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Expert

Dr Jekaterina Schneider

https://www.drkatschneider.com/ 

With wellbeing insights from

Dr Gus Chaves

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gus-chaves-0a9959243/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:04

Hello and welcome to Mental Health Patterns with me, Dr. Audrey Tang. And me, Judith Crozier. This is the show where we take a look at a mental health and well-being topic, but we do not have hot takes and quick fixes. We actually work with academics to bring you thought-through, research-based advice and information. And today's topic is one of those topics where actually this is so important. We are talking about body image.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Together and with friends.

SPEAKER_05 0:38

And I think it's women, it's something that's at the back of our minds every single point of the day, which is scary.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

I think so. And I was actually thinking about this. Do I think about it consciously? I don't think I really do. But it's there subconsciously. And it's constant. Yeah, it is. It is there all the time.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

And it's and there's been recent research which shows that girls, girls, as in seven, eight-year-olds, describe themselves through the lens of boys. They don't even realise they're doing it, but they will describe themselves of, oh, I I'm quite quiet because boys don't like girls being too loud. But boys don't like, isn't it? And um it was Rosalind Wiseman. Now she is her book, Queen Bees and Wannabees, was the inspiration for Mean Girls. Right. Um, Rosalind Wiseman talked about fruit pot girls, and it is a great example of how young girls perceive themselves in relation to other people. She says that these very smart teenagers were pretending they couldn't open a fruit pot so they could say to the boy, Could you do this for me, please?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Oh really? Wow. Courageous, isn't it? They're so manipulative as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:49

Well it's manipulative, but it's tragic that that is what a girl is gonna grow up thinking is that I am no use on my own. Yeah. I have to get a boy or a man to do this for me.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

And or yeah, and even if they don't have to, because they are capable, they've already pretend to not be capable.

SPEAKER_05 2:13

Yeah. We are dimming our lights from a very, very young age. And I think a lot of that has to do with perception of our objective self.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

You know, it's all very well saying, oh, it's who you want the inside, but yeah, but that's not that's not what you you I suppose children don't know that, do they? So child children are all about what they see, and then that's too late then because because that perception's already in you.

unknown 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Because because you are a child, you have children around you. So that's the um and it becomes normal. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

This is going to be an incredible conversation because we have got Dr. Jakaterina Schneider, she works for the Centre of Appearance Research, and she researches all the up-to-date information about women's perceptions of themselves, what body image is, because it's a big construct, men's perceptions of themselves, and how that plays out in the real world. So let us welcome her to the show.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Welcome, Dr. Kat. It's lovely to have you with us this morning. Thank you, it's great to be here. And we're talking about a really important um topic. So, um, talking about body image, what do we actually mean when we talk about body image?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, so when we talk about a body image, we generally refer to our thoughts and feelings and also behaviors towards our body. And one important thing to note um about body images is it's not just about appearance, so not just about how we look, but it's also our thoughts and feelings about what our body can do and experience, and that's something we refer to as body functionality. So you kind of have these two aspects of body image appearance and functionality, even though, of course, most of the time people think it's about how we look. But it's kind of any thoughts we're having, um, critical, positive, negative about our bodies, about our looks, um, and also how we take care of our bodies, so self-care behaviors, um, how we like express our bodies to others, how we express our appearance, all that sort of um falls into the concept of body image. And then just another thing to mention is we often think about positive and negative body image as kind of like uh two ends of a spectrum. Yeah, but in reality, they are two distinct constructs. So you can have um negative body image to some extent, so you can feel dissatisfied with some part of your appearance, but still overall have a positive body image, which means you appreciate and respect and care for your body. So they're related constructs, but they're two distinct constructs.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

That's really interesting because personally I've always wondered how somebody who I perceive to be you know near perfect can can have issues with their body image, but that you've just explained it really clearly and it's kind of obvious.

SPEAKER_05 5:02

Yeah, and I just made the note on functionality is actually a separate construct, which I didn't realise. It's almost like I I use it in coaching as a separate construct, but to hear it from the academic who researchers it yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Sorry to interrupt. No, no, it's so interesting. Like you've only said one thing and it's just brought up so much and clarify so much as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

And I'm done for the day.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Thank you. We're not keeping you, yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Um so why does body image then do you think impact uh on our mental health, especially women's mental health, but not only women?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

No, um, I think there are there are some who probably think body image is this kind of not that important, a little bit of a shallow construct about kind of like, oh, you don't feel happy with how you look, it's not a big deal. Um, and I think part of that is because it's so normalized to have some kind of discontent around how we look. And so it's like, oh, everybody has it, get over it basically, and deal with it. Um, like you said, men and women both um experience body image concerns as well as people who are non-binary or don't fall into these neat categorizations of gender. But the reason women are most impacted is because um of the quite narrow appearance societal ideal for women uh and for women's bodies, and because women's bodies have traditionally more often been kind of on display, sexualized, objectified, um, and are often held to quite strict standards, but even when it comes to obviously when it comes to body size and weight, but also when it comes to aging and the kind of the forced notion of aging gracefully or having to um not look like you've aged at all for the most part. And so there's generally more pressures on women to look a certain way, um, and they're usually kind of boiled down just to how they look, while men are typically appreciated for like a wider variety of characteristics, and that's not to say that men don't experience body image concerns, because of course they do, but I think that's also where it comes from this very oh, this is just like a small concern about how you look, to kind of wider mental health and even physical health effects of that. So, you know, we see that body image concerns are linked with depression, anxiety, stress, things like suicidality as well. Um, in terms of physical concerns, uh, in terms of physical health concerns, there's things like um cortisol reactivity due to stress. There's um things like people who experience worse body image tend to exercise less, tend to have more disordered eating and eating disorders, which of course have physical health consequences as well. So it's not just this kind of unimportant thing, it actually affects our mental health a lot, our mental and physical health a lot. Um, and and it has all these consequences and a lot of other things. It's often considered a precursor for eating disorders as well. So it's it's and we know eating disorders are one of the deadliest mental health conditions in the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

So it's quite important. It's such a huge topic, actually.

SPEAKER_05 8:04

And so to unpack it all is in the time that we've got is it's is difficult there. Um what I would be really interested in is because you've mentioned the common things that people will talk about um when it comes to how that generally how they look, especially women, if they don't fit the ideal that we see in the media and so on. But in your research, have you seen other things come up that maybe struck you as more unusual or a little bit, oh, that's I didn't know about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

I do I do a lot of research in kind of sport and exercise settings. That's um where my main research lies. And I do sort of research on body image, but also weight bias and weight stigma, so particularly focused on kind of the discrimination and biases we have towards people living in larger bodies. And in that setting, I think one of the surprising, but also maybe not that surprising bits is just how normal it is, um, to the point where every single person we speak to has had at some point some body image concerns or still has some body image concerns presently. Um, we also see a lot of negative body image experiences in the sport and exercise settings as really predictive of whether people engage in exercise at all and how they engage in exercise. So, again, that's obviously from my um from my particular area of research. But for example, we have negative experiences in young childhood of physical education related to the body. So feeling like your body's on display, or the school uniform doesn't fit your body particularly, or you have negative comments from peers or uh or boys, or even sometimes coaches and teachers. And women we talk to in midlife and older still recall these negative early experiences as something that for most of their lives have put them off kind of going back to any formal exercise setting. And that is um that is heartbreaking, really. But it's it's these important, um, these important elements that I think a lot of people don't think about of of you know of having negative body image. Okay, maybe it has impacts on mental health, but it also has impacts on how people show up in the world. We have evidence that you know girls don't raise their hand in class if they have low body confidence, or they don't put themselves up for extracurricular activities, or they don't engage in sport and exercise, which of course has tons of mental, physical, and social health benefits. So it kind of infiltrates every aspect of life and it often has really, really long-term effects as well.

SPEAKER_05 10:37

Yeah, because that feeds, it almost feeds into that stereotype of if if you don't put your hand up because you're self-conscious, you won't be seen as dynamic.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

And then people go and associate, oh, well, it's somebody who's living in a larger body is not dynamic. Yeah, but it's not that at all. No. It's the fact that they've been made to feel self-conscious because of something else, and that's that's been the symptom rather than the cause.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

That's a really good point, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

So on that, I was so interested in your recent paper. I love the fact that you pointed out women can hold as many positive messages about body confidence in their heads as they like, they can still feel it differently. And so, what do people misunderstand about body confidence?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

I think when we say body confidence, or we also sometimes say um positive body image, it's often conflated a bit with that kind of body positivity movement that um didn't originally start this way, but now is very much often about just oh, just love your body, love everything about your body all the time. Um it's obviously not realistic, it's also not particularly helpful because it still often puts the focus on appearance. So it's like, oh, accept your body roles, or accept your cellulite, or accept this and that, which absolutely we should do because those are very natural variations of the human body, but we should appreciate our body for more than what it looks like, and it's not really realistic to love your body all the time. We often talk about body neutrality instead, or actually the true definition of positive body image is not the way it's portrayed um in kind of body positivity social media movements. It's more closer to body neutrality, where you know you don't have to love every aspect of your body, but you respect your body, you appreciate your body, particularly for what your body can do for you and what it can experience, and then you also take care of your body, so you engage in self-care behaviors, um, and so it's more kind of about that respecting, accepting, and caring rather than loving your body all the time.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

Those are beautiful words, respecting and caring. And those are more actually more important words that we need to be using.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

I was thinking exactly the same thing when you were saying that, Dr. Kat. I was thinking that actually, if you turn your thinking around and use words like respect, then you're gonna maybe think it's gonna make me think about do I need that chocolate? Because actually, that's not showing it with the respect because I know what I should be putting in my body, and I I do it, but I also have other things that I shouldn't be. So the respect and the nurturing and and the self-care, it just makes you me anyway, and you I think look at it from a different way. It's a whole different mindset.

SPEAKER_05 13:30

I'm so happy we're having this conversation, and honestly, please do read Dr. Kat's research because she is there speaking to people right now, experiencing things that are we're all thinking and we're all feeling, and that's an important discussion to have. We're gonna be back with Dr. Kat after this short clip from one of our resident experts.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

The way you speak to yourself today is often the echo of how someone once spoke to you. The critical voice, that pressure to be perfect, that fear of getting it wrong. For many people, that started in childhood. And here's the important part your inner child is still listening. So when you say, I'm so useless, I should be better than this. I always mess things up. It lands somewhere deeper than just words. Now imagine speaking to a child that way. You wouldn't. So here's a simple shift. Next time you catch that inner voice, pause and ask yourself if this was a child in front of me, what would I say instead? And then say that to yourself. Because healing doesn't come from criticism, it comes from safety.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're talking to Dr. Kat about body image and everything to do with that, and it's so interesting. It's such an interesting but really important discussion to have as well. So um, I'm thrilled that you're here today. Why do so many capable women feel not good enough or or incapable because they don't like their body?

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Great question. Um, this is actually another key aspect of my research, or something that I'm definitely trying to incorporate into my research. Um, again, I mentioned kind of this misunderstanding that body image is not a big deal. And so, kind of, oh, these capable women, why do they care so much, or why are they so hung up on appearance? And one of the key aspects of that is that not only does it in fact um does body image impact our individual behaviors and how we feel about ourselves and mental health and all the things we've spoken about, but it's actually um it actually impacts how we're treated in the world as well, uh, the privileges we have. We we sometimes talk about pretty privilege, and that's not to say that you know, people who are closer to the societal appearance ideal don't have any concerns in the world, of course they do, but they still experience privilege in terms of um really tangible benefits like promotion opportunities, more money, being treated with more respect by others, um, not being harassed, not being discriminated against. And when we talk about people who are further and further from the appearance ideal, you know, not only is it about how they're treated by others and the opportunities they miss, but it's also, you know, sometimes about complete exclusion from environments that are not built for their body size, for their weight. You know, we talk about everything from gym equipment to gym attire to, you know, seat belts on airplanes in cars, you know, so it's about safety, it's environment, it's about environmental exclusion. So so of course it's a it's a huge impact. So even if you are feeling, you know, really capable in every other way, if your appearance does not match the societal ideal, um, you will have some disadvantage in some areas of life. And unfortunately, that's gonna be something that's really, really crucial and really important to you. And also we see all these kind of media messages and these pressures about what we should look like. So even if we ourselves decide, okay, I'm gonna just love and accept my body the way it is, then you step out into the world and you know you have constant adverts, um, weight loss medications and pressures to look a certain way, and models and and all of that. So it's sort of not enough to just tell someone to love their body because then they step out into the world that basically tells them to hate their body, and so kind of that incongruence is is constantly there, and more so for people who are kind of further away from the societal appearance ideal.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah, I mean it it makes sense what you're saying. Um yeah, it's it's all it's awful, really. And so um talk about practical things as you were. So, why do, for example, um at the gym you mentioned you know the machines not built for people in a large body um or clothing or mirrors. Why do they matter so much when when it comes to engaging in healthy behaviors? And what can be done to address that?

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah, I actually come from a sport and actually a psychology background. So before I was sort of exposed to the body image and weight stigma worlds, um, I was involved in a lot of kind of physical activity interventions to get people moving more. I think we can all agree that you know regular physical activity is beneficial for most of us. Um, and as a society, we don't move enough. And then I noticed the problem with a lot of these interventions is that they're really kind of focused on the individual. So like what helps you move, what stops you from moving, how can we motivate you more, how can we get you from the contemplation stage to the action stage, all of that, which there's nothing inherently wrong with, but I would argue most people know uh we need to move regularly, and most people know how to do it. Um, but then again, they step into these environments, into these gyms where, you know, from my research and also from research with uh from others, we see that, you know, for example, women specifically, they come into a gym, they're perceived as novices just by being a woman. They're assumed to be there for cardio or weight loss rather than um resistance training, or you know, they feel excluded from the free weights area. We often see that the gyms still to this day can be quite um spaces of quite toxic masculinity and quite um gendered, and even the equipment is kind of divided into very this is the male zone, this is the female zone, which obviously is not the case. We do see that more and more women's strength train. Um, then if you're living in a larger body, you're even more so gonna perceive be perceived as if you don't know what you're doing in the gym. Um, everyone will assume you're there to lose weight, you might struggle to even find clothes that fit. Um, when it comes to equipment, they might not be set up for your body, you might not fit, or the equipment might be too close to each other, so you might not fit between them comfortably. So it's even small things like that. Um then we've spoken to women in our research about feeling like they need to be put together when they go to the gym because otherwise they're not taken seriously. But then if they are too put together, they're still not taken seriously. So it's kind of this like I can't win no matter what I do situation. And a lot of people just put off then from going to a public exercise space. Um, and then it's not enough to just say, like, oh, you're not motivated or you're lazy or you don't want to exercise, but actually, like this space isn't safe for me. You know, we talk about harassment, even women jogging outside, you know, there's safety concerns, there's spatial concerns for larger bodies, there's um ability and um access concerns, accessibility for people with different types of abilities or you know, for people with disabilities. And all of that is like the environment and the people in that environment that don't get that training, that aren't upskilled, that aren't um adjusted, and instead we're just telling people to move more, um, which is just not helpful because when they try, we're often faced with these external barriers.

SPEAKER_05 21:18

It's so important you mention environment because this is something that uh I find in my uh well-being training in organizations. It's all very well telling the individual this is how you can bust stress, this is how you can build your resilience, etc. etc. And then off you go back to the same toxic environment that caused you to have those problems in the first place. Well, unless we're dealing with the space that we're expecting the change to happen in, nothing is going to change. And I just smiled when you talked about the change cycle from contemplation to activism because it's useless if the space isn't there for you. Um I just remember watching on it was an American textbook model, one of those, where they were saying, Oh, we we embrace larger bodies, nothing that the Fashion world brought for um for the girls to wear fit one of the models. And that experience is just horrific. So you're saying one thing, but actually going, oh, only if you're up to a size 10.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Yeah. And that's considered luck.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

So on that note, Dr. Kat, something that you said in your research is one bad experience can negate every single good experience that you've had. And that to me is is crazy. But why is that?

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Well, it is crazy. It's very, it's very upsetting. But as human beings, I think we're just biologically programmed to focus on the negative. It's a survival mechanism. It's kind of how we've survived as a species, like by focusing our minds on kind of the imminent danger, right? Rather than um embracing all the positives. And unfortunately, that's an evolutionary advantage that persists to this day, disadvantage in some cases. We've spoken to women in our research, and like 100% of them say that they've had negative experiences of physical education back when they were children. Yeah. And they remember it decades and decades and decades later, they still remember these comments. And it is really heartbreaking because not only does it emphasize how important it is to intervene early, and again, it's not just about uh intervening at the individual level, but the systems level. So, you know, educating physical education teachers and making sure school spaces are safe. Particularly when we see you know all the public debate constantly about physical inactivity and how much it costs NHS, and and yet, despite like thousands and thousands of interventions that we have to date, physical activity levels have not increased in decades. They've stagnated, and women and girls are still disproportionately less active than boys and men at at every age, pretty much. So clearly, what we're doing is not working, and we just need to intervene sooner and not adjust at the individual level, because these experiences have lifelong consequences.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Yes, I'm just sort of writing your point down, not adjust to individual levels because it is about the environment. Honestly, it is about the space that you you are trying to do those things in because you're already nervous when you're trying to make a change that if anything then happens, you're already on edge and you think this is not safe for me, I can't I can't carry this on. So on that note, Dr. Kat, how does a woman in particular, I guess, uh rebuild after those negative experiences? Because it's just not as easy to go, oh, just find another gym, you know. It doesn't, it doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

No, women report sort of very different strategies uh for how they've overcome that. And you know, some of the women we spoke to in our research, um, there was a bit of a mix, so some kind of never reconnected with exercise, and some did, and some went on to have meaningful, empowering relationships with exercise. Um, through a mix of approaches, so a lot of trial and error, finding a space that's feels right, that works for them, obviously a lot of own work as well, because you know, when we particularly talk about body image and focusing on body functionality over appearance, one of the things we can do is shifting our relationship to movement from one that's like all about how we look and losing weight and changing appearance to like what it helps us do. Um, getting stronger, getting fitter, and all of that. That has actually nothing to do with appearance at all, getting healthier, which also has nothing to do with how we look. And so for some women, it was about finding finally a positive space, which is also a great sign that the fitness landscape is shifting. There is more positive, inclusive spaces coming up, there's more options for women, women-only spaces are cropping up in different places. So, you know, there were opportunities that were open for them, and they were able to find a space that finally worked. Um, definitely work in our own body image and our motivations for movement. Um, finding a community that was a huge um kind of theme in our research is you know, exercise is inherently a very social activity or can be a very social activity, and finding community that feels safe and empowering can be really beneficial for people, finding movement that works for them and a movement space that they enjoy coming back to. Um, so kind of all sorts of strategies, and unfortunately a lot of trial and error as well, because sometimes, you know, you'll go to a gym and it's just not what you expected, or it's not right for you, or it's it's harmful. And so then you have to. But I think that's also a really great lesson is you you can quit a gym and find a different space. There's especially now and post-COVID, there's so many uh online spaces that have cropped up as well. Um, and for people who don't mind having more of a virtual community, that can be a great option if the physical space feels unsafe um or just like unwelcoming.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Really good things to think about there, and lots of different options. And to anyone who has felt unsafe in a space, it really is please try other spaces. Because I think, Dr. Kat, you're absolutely right. There are many more spaces coming up that are aware of this. And I think people themselves are aware of it too. And so maybe men are going to be less likely to even look at you, they're just going to focus on their own thing, kind of. So hopefully there is a shift coming, maybe it needs to be faster. Um, Dr. Kat, we're keeping you, and we'll be back just after a clip from one of our previous resident experts.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Most people are waiting to feel motivated before they take action. But motivation doesn't work like that. Action creates motivation, not the other way around. Think about it. Uh, how often do you feel like going to the gym before you go? But once you start, it gets easier. That's because action creates momentum. And momentum creates motivation. So instead of waiting to feel ready, focus on starting small at one step, five minutes, a tiny action. Because the hardest part is not the task, it's the beginning. So the takeaway is simple. Don't wait for motivation. Create it.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters and our discussion on body image with Dr. Kat, which is um so interesting and so important as well. Um, we're talking about exercising and and and the difference between health and losing weight, as as you said. So, but how do we separate health from punishment, for example? So forcing ourselves to to go to the gym or do some exercise that we really, really don't like, um, and then maybe rewarding ourselves with, you know, food uh cake or chocolate or something.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah, so when we speak about this is we speak about the cycle of kind of the reward, punishment, punishment, reward pathway, where oftentimes exercise is framed as punishment or restriction of some sort rather than something that's there for meaningful, joyful, engagement, and part of our lives. So one of the things I think of is it's again it's changing a little bit now, but one of the things I think of is all these slogans around fitness that are very much around um pain and punishment restriction, like no pain, no gain, or fat is your sweat crying, or or some some say like don't stop when it hurts, um, stop when you're reached your goal or something silly like that. And then there's like shifting language from nothing tastes as good as being skinny feels to nothing tastes as good as being fit feels, but the fit is still very much a very thin-looking person. Um, and all of that, all of this is just framing movement as something that should hurt or some kind of punishment, and then of course you reward yourself with food or you reward yourself with something afterwards. Um, and it's all about discipline, it's all this very kind of hardcore messaging that is just um not that helpful. From decades of sports science research, we see that generally speaking, people who exercise for external reasons, so this could be to change your appearance, to lose weight, or simply due to external pressures of like, okay, this is what other people are doing, so I should be doing it too, or you know, your family or friends pressuring you like you should exercise. Um, those people tend to exercise less and exercise more in the short term, so not stick with it in the long term compared to people who exercise for internal reasons. So um, enjoyment, health, functionality. I like how this movement makes my body feel. I like doing it. And and all of that to say is maybe it's not groundbreaking, but I think sometimes we forget that when we do something we enjoy, we're more likely to do it for a long time. And the same can be applied to movement. Um so I think a lot of us see very, very specific narrow types of movement that other people engage in. So things like going to the gym, um, running, running marathons, doing high rocks, doing crossfit, all of these things that are popular now, and also with the addition of more recently, sort of Pilates kind of having its boom again. So we think this is this is valid movement, so I need to do this type of movement, but we forget all about the range of movement that um also counts as also equally valid. So things like dancing, things like yoga, things like hiking or walking, um, you know, self-defense, whatever it is, sports, team sports, um, all equally valid types of movement and things we might actually enjoy doing, but we don't see it as much as um, or even things like um doing some weight training at home. Like it doesn't actually have to take place in a gym. It's like little things like that that I think we sometimes forget. Um, so joyful movement, genuinely enjoying what you're doing is just kind of the best advice I can give. Um, and then we also on the other hand see this messaging about how we all have the same 24 hours in a day. So if I can do it, you can do it. I hate that. My least favorite thing, probably of all time. Um, because it just neglects the reality, it's a very privileged position. Uh it neglects differences between people, and also it just um again makes it seem like exercise is kind of something, this external thing to our lives that we have to shape our lives around, exercise, when in reality, movement or exercise should fit into our lives the way they are to make it more sustainable. Um, so for example, instead of going to the gym to walk on a treadmill, you could be walking from home to work. It's something that's already integrated in your routine, it's equally valid. The body doesn't discriminate between, you know, walking on a treadmill or walking outside. The body doesn't even discriminate between walking outside and and walking outside to a coffee shop. Like it doesn't, you know, that's also movement. It's the same movement. And I think the most sustainable thing we can do is finding something we enjoy and or integrating movement meaningfully into our existing lives rather than trying to like change our lives around to try to achieve some kind of unrealistic exercise goal.

SPEAKER_05 33:18

I need to have a record this and play you on loop in my head. Um and just to interrupt because I know you've got another question, but there is this messaging at the moment as we're living longer, you know, aging well. But unfortunately, the aging well message has become a little bit synonymous with these pensioners who are running marathons and doing high-rock and doing reforma plata, is you know, age nice. And I look at that and go, I'm never gonna do that. Does that mean I'm not living well? And what you're saying is that walk out in the sunshine is living well. Yeah, doing that every day is living fantastically, and and that is really important.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah, I love that. It takes the pressure off. I know that I don't have to be running a marathon at 85. I mean, if I start training now, I might get there, but start walking at all. It's a goal. Um so you know, we've talked about the gym and briefly mentioned the fashion, so we know that they can make improvements to help people living in a large body. Um, but how can um and to help with body image, but how can workplaces help in that regard?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Great question. Um, I think what we've talked about is kind of this need for a systems approach. So rather than giving individuals, you know, body image training or seminars or, you know, there's mindfulness courses, all that sort of things that, you know, great for employee well-being as well. But um, as Audrey mentioned, like the wider system and the wider environment is most important. Um I am lucky enough. I'm gonna give a shout out to the Center for Appearance Research where I work, where it's probably one of the few places I've ever been where we just don't engage in body talk. Um, and if you if you start noticing this body, so body talk is any conversation that has something to do with reinforcing a certain way to look, so the societal appearance ideal. So body talk can be positive or negative. So an example of positive body talk in quotation marks, because it's still harmful, is oh, you look great, have you lost weight? And then we have negative body talk examples like, oh, I shouldn't be eating that, or I'm trying to lose some weight, or oh, my hair looks awful today, or whatever it is. And these conversations are so normalized. Like it's you know, we almost say it by way of greeting, like, oh, I'm gonna be naughty and order a muffin today, or you know, I need to work it off at the gym, or oh, you look great, you've lost some weight. Like it's so normal. And I think when you start noticing how normal it is, you like you will notice it everywhere because it literally is everywhere. But where I work, because we're the Center for Appearance Research, that's just not a normal, you know. So I sometimes feel like I'm in this protective bubble, but I actually think one of the key things that workplaces can do is just eliminate body talk. Like, we don't tolerate body talk here, like there's no need to comment on someone's appearance or your own appearance, that's just something we don't need to engage with. I think that's one thing, um, which is more kind of social approach. And then we talk about all these environmental things. So um, do we have chairs without arms or do we have chairs that are comfortable for larger bodies? You know, do we encourage gentle movement breaks and do we present space for gentle movement breaks? Do we encourage kind of a work-life balance so people can, you know, spend time taking care of themselves outside of work? Do we, you know, provide accessible bathrooms, accessible hallways? Um, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a conference and been uncomfortable sitting in a session the whole time because like the armchairs have been digging into my legs. And it's like, I mean, it's just little things really. They aren't that big, they aren't gonna be that expensive to fix, like making sure we have different chairs. It could be things like, you know, if you go into a gym or if you go into like a health clinic, or if you go into like um a leisure center within an office space, like is the scale the first thing you see? You know, all the messaging around appearance. It can be things like advertisements on the wall, you know, are there before and after bodies? Are there you know actually positive portrayals of fat people, or are they all sort of a before picture? Um, it can be things it it can be gen like generally quite small things that add up to make a difference. Um, or if you go on a company retreat, right? Like, do you have uh t-shirts that fit everybody, or do you have like limited sizing? It's individual, they're not that big steps, but they actually make a huge difference to make people feel welcome. So it has to be on an individual level, it has to be on a social level, and it has to be on a company level. And you you create this environment, you policy where you know we do not tolerate um or we do not accept sort of negative body image behaviors or practices in this office and and make that public. That's I think also super important.

SPEAKER_05 38:17

I think when you talk about as well, um the to how simple positive talk actually is as well. Because a lot of us are kind of aware of negative, but we don't realize how often we just use, oh, you look amazing, as a statement. I know I use that a lot, and I'm gonna be more conscious of that. So this question you it's kind of wrong now because of what you said, and I I do I do understand that. Um but if we do still talk about our body, or maybe our inner voice talks about our body in a critical way, yeah, what could we do to change that? Whether it's focusing on neutrality or, you know, even if there are bits we just don't like, and how do we change that inner thinking?

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah, definitely not a wrong question because you know, we in the body image world, we can't we don't say like never talk about your body at all. Like that's just not you know, it's not possible, it's not realistic. Um there's one of the key shifts um is shifting from appearance to functionality. So instead of um I hate my legs, you can think, oh, my legs have carried me through, I don't know, a hike, the work day from place to place. So shifting that functionality perspective. I hate my hair, oh my hair is um a result of like generations of women who came before me. So just shifting it from um from that appearance focus to um functionality or some kind of appreciation in a different way, if that helps. I think that's one of the biggest shifts. Um the second thing, you know, one of the questions I often get asked when I talk about body images, oh, so I shouldn't care about my appearance at all. Like, why can't I get my no? Of course you can, and that's absolutely fine. So we talk about like adaptive um appearance expression. So, you know, wearing makeup, getting your nails done, expressing yourself with clothes, with jewelry, absolutely all fine to do. It's just that kind of shift of, you know, are you feeling anxious leaving the house without makeup, or are you using makeup as a creative expression? Um, and I think we saw that even a lot in in COVID times. I mean, this is anecdotal, I don't really have studies for this, but women on social media showing um like their COVID masks with like a ton of makeup on, and they're like, this is proof that we don't do this for others, that we do this for ourselves because you're wearing a mask when you're in public, and so nobody can see your makeup, but it's there because you're putting it on for yourself. And sometimes it's really difficult to disentangle, like who am I doing this for? So I'm not saying this is easy, um, because unfortunately, we can't really in reality disentangle the social and cultural pressures we've received from our own kind of wants and needs, like they're all enmeshed at this point. But it's a good thing to think about of like if I was alone on an island, would I still want to get my nails done, or would I still want to lose weight, or would I still whatever else? Um, and there's some people who will say, Yes, I absolutely love experimenting with clothes. Should I not care about that anymore? And absolutely no, you should you should do what makes you happy. So I think that's the second shift, is kind of to this more adaptive, um adaptive way of thinking about our appearance rather than is it literally giving me anxiety to be in this body? And then the third, um the third shift I would say is trying to celebrate appearance diversity. And that's one of the you know, more kind of social, uh, you know, beyond yourself sort of um tactic. And you know, for the most part, I think we can all understand that people just come in different shapes and sizes, you know, there's natural diversity in you know, hair color, eye color, skin color, all sorts of things. And why should body shape not be not be that as well? And it's about kind of starting to celebrate it. Because I think the more, and we have we have literature showing this, the more you celebrate appearance diversity in others, the more you appreciate the uniqueness of your own body as well. So I think that's another kind of shift where you can you can talk about appearance and you can you can notice people's appearance, and you can also notice that they're all different and you know celebrate that and and and be happy. We live in a world where people look different and not all just like looking the same, because that would be very boring.

SPEAKER_05 42:29

Oh gosh, absolutely. And just already your energy and the positivity and the joy that's coming out of this, I'm just feeling better listening to you. It's brilliant, it's brilliant. Um, but when should someone maybe seek some professional support from a therapy point of view, you know, with regards to their body image? Because if if maybe they recognise that their conversation is dominant about negative self-talk or that that kind of thing, it that's different, isn't it, to oh I'm just feeling a bit wobbly today. You know, that there's a difference between a bad hair day and an obsession with what does my hair look like?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

When should someone seek help?

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Absolutely. And just because sort of body image concerns are normalized doesn't think doesn't mean it's normal. Like it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. And um we do have we do see a spectrum, you know, between this kind of normalized discontent that we all um should feel dissatisfied with something, to the point where you know people are over-exercising or skipping meals, and we're starting to see like disordered eating behaviors and eating disorders. Absolutely, you know. Um, beat is a eating disorder charity in the UK. Mind.org, you know, NHS will have some support services. Um, so in in that point, absolutely, yes, eating disorders can be um you can recover from an eating disorder, but the sooner you start, the better. Then there's things like if you are you know losing sleep or feeling anxious all. the time or investing you know considerable energy, time or money in your looks of, you know, for example, if you're waking up a couple of hours early just to um just you know get your makeup right, get your clothes right, or you're investing a ton of money in supplements that you know most of them are just you know horribly useless and do not work at best and at worst can be harmful. And then I think that's when you also have to check in like am I spending unnecessary mental energy, money and time um investing in my appearance? Is it causing you know anxiety, depression, all these things I think definitely also seek help. It is um it is you know it it can become a serious mental health concern, but it is also something that absolutely can be overcome. And I think the more we encourage people to not treat it as something that's just normal and just that everyone has and the more we talk about body image I think the the less stigma there will be to seek help and to you know admit that there's you know we can all benefit from therapy anyway. So when in doubt I would say that that's a great route to take. You know we can all benefit you know the the crazy world we live in I think we can all benefit from talking to someone anyway. So there's absolutely no shame in seeking help um and there's plenty of resources out there to do so.

SPEAKER_05 45:14

And just to pull out on that just seeking help because I think that's this is this is really true. I am already taking um hormone replacement for just it's a sm it's small hormone replacement but recently I've recognised I think I need more and I've actually spoken to a GP about this. Rather than spending hundreds of pounds on supplements and all the adverts and all of that they've just said okay well given your um data we'll prescribe you these patches try that it's half the price of what I have been spending and it's actually going to and it can be as simple as doing something practical for your body not necessarily that's not psychological that is just literally a practical thing that is going to affect my nails being brittle my hair falling out those other appearance related things it's a health related issue and it just you saying seek help is just normalise that.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

Yes absolutely right yeah oh my goodness Dr.

SPEAKER_05 46:12

Kent we could talk about this all day and I would love to talk about this all day unfortunately we can't today but where can we learn more about you read your research and and stay in touch with you um I do talk about this all day every day so you're amazing that is and I love talking about I think it's just so important.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

So thank you for having me on today um I have a website drkatchschneider.com which has um links to my research obviously all my research is on things like ResearchGate and Google Scholar but it's you know it links to that on my website um I have a LinkedIn page I have an Instagram page that I try to keep active where I also share my research as and when it comes out particularly related to weight inclusive and body positive fitness which is um again Dr. Katschneider on Instagram so I think those are the best places and of course I have a staff page at the University of the West of England where I work um at the Center for Appearance Research we have a podcast as well Appearance Matters the podcast where if you just want to know more about body image stuff I would I would recommend listening to um and yeah but I think drcaschneider.com and my Instagram page is probably the best place to start.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

And I will put that all with the show notes. Thank you so much Dr. Kat this was such a pleasure and we will come back after test the trend on this week's test the trend I want to suggest a very simple shift in mindset. And this is something that echoes what Dr.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Kat's been saying and that is um when we think about things going well and having a great life what do we think about you know I I'm really happy what what do you think about to have a great life to be living the dream life what's your perception of that um calm um just looking forward to things um everything is easy I suppose and personally like feeling healthy feeling awake not feeling tired all the time and do you think that would happen every single day even if you were largely living your dream life?

SPEAKER_05 48:24

No, but that's how I imagine it will be. And this is where the problems come in. A lot of coaches um trainers and I see the packages on LinkedIn it's all about oh you're feeling down come to coaching and we will teach you how to thrive and I was one of those coaches you know because you package up what you're offering but what we're doing is we're selling something that is really really unhealthy and this is what Dr Kat was saying that the healthy living a dream life is just you know life is okay. Yeah it's okay it's okay if something bad happens I'll deal with it it's it's maybe not having the extremes but when we start saying when you're thriving you need to be excited and joyful and or running marathons or doing high rocks competitions all the time that is not sustainable. That is not living day to day so I want to give you a challenge today. There is something in psychology that they're now calling glimmers glimmers and this is a very beautiful word and that is just the moments every single day that it just feels nice for whatever it is if someone's held the door open for you or someone's smiled at you or you've seen a cute puppy or or the sun's out which is you know quite incredible in the UK those little moments now I'm gonna use a naughty word here because it's not about your life thriving and being the most incredible thing every single minute of those 24 hours it's just about life not being quite so shit. And that is what glimmers are because life can be crappy oh yeah it's life there's ups and there's downs and therefore if we are just looking for glimmers which just bring that moment of calm that you you said first. I did a moment where you can just go okay I'm I'm I'm here I'm good I can cope that's enough so when it comes to thinking about how you can make your life amazing or beautiful and brilliant that's a great aspiration. It is not going to be that high octane living every single minute of every single day. So what we've got to learn is not reduce our expectations but learn to accept life as life is but then look for the things that make it that little bit more special. I wish we could talk to her all day.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

I know I didn't want the conversation to finish.

SPEAKER_05 50:56

I'm so jealous she has those conversations every single day because this is so much to unpack. And I'm really glad she brought up um the difference between eating disorders and disordered eating because eating disorders we we know about those but disordered eating is when you start skipping meals or you start uh have replacement shakes or whatever when when it becomes obsessive and when you're always thinking about weight or you're always thinking about should I have this or counting calories then it is disordered eating it's not an eating disorder.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yeah absolutely yes it's sort of it's one step up from that I'd say in well that's how I measure it in my mind anyway but yeah it's still kind of on the unhealthy route I'd I'd say and you see it yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

Something she mentioned in her research she didn't go into but at a conference when I was listening to her and she was fantastic she talks about this was about um gymware and the things she's working on with gym wear providers is the fact that if you are living in a larger body you can't always get stuff that's fashionable and cute and supportive and all of those things. So you've kind of already got past the hurdle of okay I want to do some exercise and then you just kind of go well I don't even feel nice doing it and that's another thing that does need to change and she's pioneering those changes.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Brilliant and it's um it's it's so important yeah really really important.

SPEAKER_05 52:22

So what what I mean she said so much.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

She did um well I I'm definitely gonna listen to her podcast because I I do definitely genuinely want to hear more um but yeah there's there's there's a lot that came out and so when when she was talking about the workplace what could be done in the workplace um I really really loved all the the kind of the practical ideas so you know chairs without arms or you know maybe slightly wider or slightly um more cushioned or or something because you know going going to going to a conference or going to a meeting can be a nightmare if it's just uncomfortable to sit in a chair for an hour. And when I was a lot smaller and lighter that never even entered my head would I be comfortable sitting on a chair but it it it it's it's really a thing and um just something so simple about having having something more suitable available that's a really good point and she had loads of ideas about how the workplace could change or be better equipped. But I think you've said something really important there it is about making the invisible visible by having these conversations by talking about what people really are seeing, feeling and thinking we can make tangible changes to the environment and the environment is a key space that we do need to make welcoming and inclusive for everybody but it is really hard to see that when your own landscape hasn't been that way and so what you're saying is if we do have these conversations hopefully someone will hear that and say I didn't even think of that I need to make that change can I just tell you a really quick example so um and I've shared this before I've been going to a weight management group for 12 weeks and I finished now and on the very last time we were in a different room so you can imagine there's a room full of people you know who who are living in larger bodies um obviously and um we've been always sitting chairs like this you know kind of in rows there's not that many of us with the the the trainers sitting there with a desk and we're sitting here and it is the most uncomfortable thing these chairs are great but it's the most uncomfortable thing to sit in a chair is an hour and a half. Yeah so the last um the last session we were in a completely different room there was a massive square desk we're all sitting around the desk and I went oh this is so much more comfortable I can put my notepad there and I can sit so much more comfortable to sit and the two trainers who are very fit and healthy and very slim went oh we didn't even think about that so for the all the future courses they've arranged to have desks for people to sit at because I really love the groups but I hate it was the most uncomfortable thing just sitting on a plastic chair for an hour and a half so yeah that's that's such a huge thing.

SPEAKER_05 55:24

Perfect example about space and the importance of space because you can talk to the individual as much as you like if they're not comfortable in the space that they then go into they're not going to make those changes. So really key I'm glad you shared that thank you and on that note from all of us here at Mental Health Matters have a healthy weekend