The Impact of Bullying at work

One of the hardest conversations on the show – and reveals the full impact that bullying and toxicity in the workplace can have on a person…we are grateful to award-winning Film maker, and dancer Katherine Luna Gate for sharing her experiences and how they still affect her, although she is putting in the work to process.

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Special Guest

Katherine Luna Gate

https://the-dots.com/users/katherine-luna-gate-487540 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr. Audrey Tang.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

And me, Judith Crozier.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

This is the show where we don't have any quick fixes and hot takes. We talk about well-being topics that matter to you, to us, to everybody out there, but we go into long-form, in-depth discussion. It's either practitioner-led or we share lived experiences. And today we are meeting filmmaker and dancer Luna Canteda, known as Katherine Luna Gate, and she is going to be talking to us about bullying in the workplace. We are going to see some of her work as well. And it's so interesting because on the topic of bullying, her work is exceptional. Her work is you will see this, you will see this. If you're listening to podcasts, you won't see this, but unfortunately, but go on to our YouTube channel and then you will because we are going to show some of her films. But in when it comes to bullying, your work can be brilliant and you can still not think much of yourself. Why, why is this? What happens to us in that toxic environment?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Well, as you know, this is a topic close to my heart, and I've I've thought a lot about this over the years. Why? Why, when someone is a really good worker, are they subject to this? And when, because obviously I've known other people as well that have gone through this, and generally I would say that the type of person, ironically, are kind of very quietly self-confident in what they're doing, they know what they're doing, they're you know they're their own person. They don't maybe need to lean on their manager, they just kind of get on with it, and I some and I think sometimes that type of person can rub up a rub another type of person up the wrong way, and it all kind of starts from that.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

That's interesting because it's like if you're really controlling, you don't want someone doing that. You want to have a part in this. Yeah, we are gonna unpack this discussion, but we are first of all going to see a beautiful piece that Luna has created.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Adventures at the farm. The egg hunt. Written and illustrated by Catherine Luna Gate. There is a farm not far away where some nice folks live together all day. There's lots of greenery, but indeed, a nice place with plenty of flowers in a very large space. Today it's quite sunny and there is a fresh breeze. But all of a sudden, a scream makes you freeze. The cockerel starts a run around the whole place, screaming and yelling, No eggs! Good grace! No eggs, no eggs! We don't know where they are, and kept running and jumping and flying wide and far. The animals started awakening all around the farm, from the courtyard to the stables, and those inside the barn. They gathered together in the middle of the barnyard, wondering what woke them up.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Oh well, welcome back to Mental Health Matters, and that was just such a lovely animatics piece, Luna. This was really, really beautiful. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired this wonderful film?

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Yes, um, so the uh piece was written during lockdown um for an Easter um event online uh hosted by um Spectrum Community Arts for which I used to volunteer at that time. And so all the volunteers were asked to do something for the children for Easter, and I wrote this little piece, and um then I it was not edited at that time. Um I actually made it uh as an interactive piece and ran it on a Zoom meeting with all the children involved, and uh it was really well received. It was the first time I was doing something like that, um, but it was um they had lots of fun, we all had lots of fun, and then in 2021 I thought I could actually do more um than this, so I wrote six pieces um but only illustrated three of them because of time, and uh and then yes, um at a certain point in 2024 I decided to actually edit them all and um open the YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_04 4:59

It's it's wonderful, and your work is so so good. You've won many awards, um especially recently as well. Can you tell us about your professional successes and in film? It's just wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Yes, I think all my main successes are um uh in the visual arts, and um it's taken me so long to understand that this is actually my true path because I have I come from a uh nursing background, a teaching background, I've done loads of jobs, I've got loads of qualifications, but I wasn't able, I was never able to make um any career out of them, possibly because they were not meant to be my careers. And yeah, so for so many reasons, for so many reasons.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Now, I would love if we could spend the whole show talking about your incredible filmmaking, and we will be showing a lot of that during the course of today, but you're actually here to talk to us about a very important subject that is not discussed enough, and that is bullying in the workplace. Um, you've experienced some horrible things at work, and do you mind also now sharing a little bit about what you've been through, please?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yes, it's not just um recently. Um I consider myself a very bad employee. I never fitted in um place, you know, workplace cultures. I don't know why. I don't know why. Maybe because I'm not um in native English, maybe because I come with my Italian, Sardinian passion. So um, you know, I've I've always been very passionate about what I do and I tend to, you know, make changes. So probably I don't know, people perceive me as a threat at work. I have no idea. I really don't know. But I've been I've been, you know, some some in from some workplaces I had to leave because um I didn't think I was in the right place. Um, you know, communication maybe wasn't great. I don't know, um ladies, I have no idea. Um I've been dismissed for um writing a um a full-length play about my experience, which is what writers, playwrights, screenwriters do. Yeah, you know, changing, changing all the um names and you know, uh being careful of not making people recognizable, and yet um once shared within the workplace itself with trust, I was you know, yeah, dismissed because they they thought I was trying to disrepute the workplace, which was never my intention. Um recently I don't know why I was in admin after four and a half years in catering. Um yeah, I've I've been bullied for 16 months solid, and um I unfortunately um happened to have to carry complex PTSD, so I regressed dramatically. Um so yeah. That's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Absolutely terrible. I'm really sorry you've had that experience. That's really, really not nice. Um, how would you say that it affects um you know everybody, yourself, uh and how does it affect people? Because obviously it's really awful, but what effect does it have on our um our self-esteem and self-belief as well?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yes, um, I I speak from a um from my personal experience because when I when I talk about this, the recent, particularly the recent um experience, so some people look at me and say, Why didn't you leave? Why did you allow this to happen over 16 months? Um, I automatically, my priority was to show this person um who was happened to be my line manager and that I was capable of doing, you know, the things that she asked me um to do. Um but obviously um there was a lot of gaslighting, um, a lot of guild tripping. Um, and so I returned to be the girl who was um bullied for the first 10 years of her life. So for me, it was a total regression because I I because I until I started CBT the year after, I never realized um my self-worth, my self-esteem. I realized things that I wasn't aware of. So I, yeah, completely lost myself. I also remember to be a completely different person at work than you know who I was outside of work. So in the end, I I had to leave because mentally I was so confused as to who I was um or I was becoming. It was it was really difficult, really challenging, one of the worst things experiences I've ever had in my entire life, let alone at work. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

It's it's awful, isn't it? You you don't expect to feel like this at work. Um you've sort of touched on this a little bit, but do you know why? You know, do you have any ideas about why this might have happened to you? And and then kind of linked to that, do you have any ideas about how organizations could perhaps better manage these situations?

SPEAKER_04 10:45

Just going to clarify, not at that, not because of you, not at your no why did the line manager get away with it? Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

It's a really good question. I um then after through CBT, throughout that period, I met people with whom I worked and who worked at the same company, and uh they made me realize that it is a toxic environment because it happened in broad daylight in a in an in a big office, and and uh people could hear and see, and no one ever did anything. Plus, this line manager um used to tell us continuously that the HR people were useless, so uh you don't tend to go and um you know go to someone for help that you know already it's not a competent person. So I couldn't know I couldn't turn to anyone. I couldn't turn. I actually um there was a um group, a social group within the the um organization that used to organize meetings for birthdays, you know, so that uh colleagues from different um teams would meet up and maybe know each other. So I hinted it that I had problems with my line manager, but no one ever reported anything or came back to me to say, Do you want to tell me something more? Maybe no, not at all. Plus, the the some some particularly some big corporate companies um may have things in place about harassment and bullying, but it's only on paper. Um, and then you get your training, but then um in actual fact, um you you there's nothing in place really. There's not no one, no, no one to turn to um when it when it actually happens. So and this person was also there 22 years, you know, she was well established. She also ran the the way her way of being was quite intimidating. So it was only us from her team. Um, but and I didn't realize also that throughout those um months, many people from her teams, because she used to run two teams, actually left without even sometimes without even an artist. So yeah, but I realized it where when I was out already.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Yes, but when you're in it, it's so hard, it's so hard to see that. Yeah. We're uh we're gonna keep you, Luna, because this is a topic which I think will resonate with a lot of people. Um it's especially it's almost using the same tactics as you would a coercive controlling relationship. Oh, your friends aren't very nice. They you know they haven't got saying HR isn't very good, exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. Um, Luna, this is a really important discussion, so thank you. Um when you're struggling at work, uh how does it impact on other areas of your life, would you say?

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Yeah, it was um it was self-esteem in particular, just just went down the drain. At least that's small self-esteem that I worked on over the years, because the first triggers of um complex BTSD um happened 20 21 years ago. And and I thought you know, I thought I had um addressed a few things, but then because that was not the um the case, uh uh when this big um challenge came through, I wasn't able to deal with it. I was not able to deal with it. Clearly, um I didn't have enough structure, um, enough foundation. So it did affect me incredibly in terms of relationships in particular, and and the world started feeling unsafe again, and yeah, yeah. And when I when I removed myself finally from the situation, I was completely confused as to whom I really was, you know, because you you know you can do certain things, but why am I not be able to to do that correctly for this person? Yeah. So she would she would uh um ask me to do something and then she would change her mind and tell me you haven't done it correctly, and you don't you didn't do it. Also, also the um the probationary period was really tough, really intense, and it shouldn't have been like that. And some members of the team who were already established there for a quite a long period of time told me, we don't understand why she's asking you to repeat these while you have already passed. So it was really a really odd, really very confusing. Yeah. Um and then she told me I am a people pleasing, which unfortunately came out in CB through CBT that it's true, it's a one of the trauma responses that you action when you are a child um exposed to abuse. So so yeah, it was really tough. It was tough.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

It sounds horrendous. Um, did you have anyone who you could turn to and and that was supported you? Um, and also is there anything that would have made things easier for you during this time?

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So I I do have my small support network, but at that time, none of us, me e including me, I didn't realize I was carrying complex PTSD. It didn't come through 21 years ago after the first trigger. So when I when I turned to my, you know, my friends who are also my British family, because I don't have family here, I don't have contact with my family, I only have two wonderful daughters. Um so everybody would say the same, you know, that is normal for someone who doesn't carry complex BTSD, just leave.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Just leave.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

But I was completely lost, and where would I go? Um I tried to find other jobs and I went through other interviews, but I at that at that point a normal person with a normal brain would say, This is a very depressed person who wants to take a depressed person on board. So it was I was in a loop and not going anywhere. So ideally, um, maybe it would have been really good to have an independent body within work to go to um and say, look, this is happening, um, and probably they would have put um in place something, but it was not the case. It was such a toxic place, and I yeah, um now that I know a lot more about me, um obviously I would act differently, but I am at the same time still on a maintenance program and completely terrified at the idea of even going for a working job interview. So I'm still working on on these issues.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, that's completely understandable. Um why do you think that some people prefer to leave their job rather than kind of face, just leave. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Um rather than you know, face it and uh and or speak up about the experiences that you're having at work.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

That's a such a really good question. Well, in like in my case, I was you know, I wasn't really I was very new to the workplace, so um I speak from my point of view. I don't know if this is shared by other people. So there is an element of shame about asking for help when you carry trauma. Um so rather than making that step uh uh into you know being vulnerable, um sometimes it's easier to just um remove yourself from that situation to leave. Um if you don't uh see that the um workplace culture is strong in the sense that it makes you know it's inclusive, it makes people feel like they are accepted for who they are. I don't know, yeah, that's I think that's a it has it can have a huge impact on people.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Um yeah, I don't know if I've answered your question.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

You have you have, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

And it actually ties in with a lot of things that you said previously, because I love I love and I feel really sad that you you introduced yourself as I'm a bad employee. I love you, you're not, you're not bad workplaces, but that can be exactly how people can end up feeling, and you're absolutely right. We need to recognise that people are gonna come maybe come with a lot of repressed trauma, and your that trauma response of not asking for help is a real thing, and I think we need to be aware of that. Workplaces need to be aware of that. Yeah, um, how did your experience impact you not just professionally but in other areas of your life as well? Because it feels like now you're reaping the rewards of your incredible talent, but that must have been a process.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Yeah, I think it comes at a cost. So, for example, I was um I I attended the uh Fisheye Film Fest last night because um the the uh short horror movie you know piece that I um directed uh two years ago, in fact, while going through CBT, that's probably why it's so good. Um I uh no one else of the production team could go, but I had to go and and support the Filmfest and the team, um and I had to ask a friend to to um come with me because I am uh somehow I'm no longer um able to uh go in places where I don't know people.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

It's really taken its toll, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:44

And so yeah, I'm working on it. Um so it's it's getting much better, but I I if I don't know anyone, if if I know that I don't know, I've never been to um the um um Bedfordshire University but University, sorry, in High Wickham where the filmfest is taking place. And then you know, because it's a small world, I've actually found um people who I know that are filmmakers, but otherwise, I really either I don't go or I ask, you know, someone to support me. It's really odd. That has never happened to me before. But it's good that it's you know, now I know I'm more conscious and aware of it, so so it helps me put those structures into place to support me mentally.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Really weird.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

No, it's it's not weird actually, it's perfectly normal. So please don't don't add that uh sort of self-judgment onto anything else. It I mean it is a pleasure speaking with you, Luna, and we are so grateful to you for being so open and so honest about this. Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. We are having a very powerful conversation with Luna, and it's really important that if you are struggling in the workplace, please speak up to someone, someone you trust. Yeah, someone you trust, it may not have to be HR, or it can be someone that you can bring into HR with you. Yes. Because it affects us professionally, it affects us personally when we are dealing with toxic behaviour and people or trauma in the workplace as well. Um so, Luna, what are your most recommended steps when it comes to healing from these ongoing experiences? Um, I know you are taking CBT at the moment, so would you recommend that along with anything else?

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yes, my first recommendation is not to suffer alone. If you feel like you are there is something that's stirring, and and you need to be really honest to yourself and say, I can't do this by myself. That's that's the point I reached. And so I went straight to the GP and because of the first um triggers, you know, there was a background already. He didn't even think twice to, you know, uh put me off sick um and um and slotted me straight away with the uh talking therapies straight away. And um despite the uh the long um waiting lists, uh I was very I was really really lucky that um they slotted me in straight away to group therapy, which is their procedure, and then you know you understand uh where you are eventually and what kind of um uh steps you should be taking uh further. Yeah, but uh definitely uh don't suffer in silence. Don't suffer in silence. Yes. Um if you are lucky enough to have a workplace that has a sturdy um you know policy uh about um helping people who um are victims of harassment of bullying, then you are in the luck. If not, then look for help outside the workplace. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Yeah, very, very important. If you are feeling that it's not going to be work that listens to you, there are other people. Charities also are a really good option as well to speak to. Um so outside the CBT group sessions, the therapy that you're undergoing, um, how do you look after your own well-being? Are there little rituals or any things that you do yourself?

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yes, I so when my all my structures crumbled down because that's what happened, um, I um started putting other things into place. So I've practiced yoga for 15 years in the past, so I used breath work a lot, um, but I also had to uh learn other techniques like tapping, for example. Um I started um learning brushing and um so I normally um go on long walk in nature. Um that's this has helped me over the years to um just support my mental well-being. I've I'm very lucky to uh be living next to a whole woodland. Um so yes, and also um uh I I'm also uh quite close to bodies of water, um so parks where there there is a lake, mum-made lake, but it's okay. Um so because water is very healing for me. In fact, when the when it started to uh feel tougher, I I started swimming and and it helped me a lot, but it helped me outside work. Um so it yes, there is this balance that we need to work on, the balance of work, life and work, um, and it's down to us. But I also as a writer I have been journaling all my life. Um I started journaling at the age of 15, and so journaling also helps me a lot to um you know offload uh um uh at the end of the day, and um music and movement for me are um they've always been um and some of my um main tools to release and uh and also I've all always gone by this motto if you have the words then write them down, if you can't find the words, then dancy out. So this this is how I've lived all my life, literally.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Love that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Great, great self-expression. Um, how do you practice better self-acceptance and self-compassion, and how do you role model that to your daughters?

SPEAKER_03 28:14

So through CBT I have um learned to uh reparent myself. Okay, and so I am uh uh I've put strategies into place to help me um to bring myself up the way I wasn't. And so I've been I'm becoming the parent I've never had. So I've started to literally um talk myself through things even aloud. Sometimes I do it even outside the house or get ready to see me, maybe in shops, talking to myself. I really don't care um because it really helps me to hear my voice rather than to hear you know my um parents' voices. Um it sounds completely different. My my voice has become more rather than harsh. So we because you said um I um I I did say I'm a bad employee, but it's not because uh this is harsh on me, it's um it's because I know that it's difficult to fit in sometimes, and so but now I am talking to myself with a completely different tone of voice, and so that's how I am becoming more self-compassionate, and um and I give myself uh pace, I pace myself a lot more, I don't force myself to to do things that um I know might please people, um so I come first now, and also I am learning something, a skill that we should learn as young people. I am learning to set boundaries, which is one of the most um vital skills that we should have.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um, what would you say is the best way to start for somebody who is supporting someone else going through a healing process?

SPEAKER_03 30:21

So I um I have as part of my maintenance program, I have joined the Recovery College in uh Buttershire. I didn't know it existed, and I have taken courses um with other people like me that have really opened um a new, a completely new world. Um because I'm I'm talking about topics that like this one are not usually um talked about. Um you don't they they they are still quite taboo topics. Yes. Um and so it has uh been really um enriching and also liberating to be able to speak um freely uh about experiences, first hand experiences. Um it also helps to build community as well. So you you realize that you're not the only one going through these kind of things because particularly when you uh um carry trauma, you think, oh you know, I'm the only one. I'm the only one that goes through these kind of things, whereas you're not. So it's important that we all understand that there is a huge amount of healing happening in the world right now, and it's important to feel that we are not alone. There is a lot of suffering, it's all coming out, which is incredible, and and hopefully this will help more and more people find the courage to speak up about things. Yeah, brilliant. That's very important.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah, and that's why it's so great that you've spoken about this today. Um, what is what's next for you, and where can we find out more about you?

SPEAKER_03 32:10

So I have re-engaged with my first love, which is dance.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Amazing!

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Yes, I'm working on um my teenage dream of becoming a choreographer and community dance leader. So I'm now organizing community flush mobs here in my hometown. Oh, and um I'm hoping to branch out uh to bring more joy and fun through dance and movement because that's how I have healed mostly, um, as well as writing. And um, thanks to the filmmaking, I'm also gravitating uh more uh towards dance filmmaking. So I'm working on a huge choreography project at the moment. I've got another collaboration um with choreography and textiles, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:03

Well, on today's test the trend, I am going to show you within hopefully about two or three minutes how a perfectly competent, clever, intelligent academic person can turn into a givering wreck. Okay, dude, good luck. Right, very simple. You are a competent, intelligent academic person. Thank you. So you should, I I'm expecting, be able to make a squash. That's your task.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Yeah, please make me a squash.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Right. In any way I see fit.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Just make me a squash.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I shall make you a squash, okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

Oh. Oh, um have I done it wrong? Yeah. Can you not do that?

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Uh well.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

Can you return that please? Can you put the water back in?

SPEAKER_01 33:53

I'll put the water back in. Thank you. But I won't be able to make a squash in the best way.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

But if but that's Are you questioning how I like squash? Oh, not that cup.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Not that cup. What cup would you like it in?

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Well, there is only other one other choice.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Oh, okay. All right, I should put it in the other cup. Okay. Oh, that's that too weak.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Okay. Oh, I've got a bit of this in there. I know this isn't really you, but it's it's uh it's brace straight. Would you like more water?

SPEAKER_04 34:38

Well, I think you've now mixed all of the squashes a bit too much.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Um that's how I would make a squash. Would you like more water? Oh squash.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

You can see your body language suddenly just went, it changed. Yeah. And it's because you're second guessing.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Because you've got somebody there going, uh, you know, and it I was deliberately saying things, yeah, but I've done it with students where I can just literally sit there and go, and they'll go, um, do do I tell do I they are perfectly competent people.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, yeah, and I know, and and although the news that it wasn't really you, uh it I was starting to think, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

Yeah, you start questioning, can I even make a school? And it's all happening, it's somebody's micromanaging you so much that you lose the competence and confidence in doing what you know you can do.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah, and you were kind of like an embodiment of so many of my past managers and people outside of work as well, that it made me it did make me feel just wanting to disappear.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Which is also something that Luna talked about as well. Yes, all it brings back past traumas. It's about on Testatrend is not about you micromanaging other people and then turning them into gibbering rags. That's not what we want. But what we do want is if you are somebody in a position of power in particular, if you are a person of influence, please be mindful that anything that you say or you do will have an effect on other people. It's difficult, isn't it? Especially when two things. One, if the HR department is incompetent, you've got that. That is that can happen. But you can also have it so that somebody makes you think that you haven't got anyone to turn to because they've already planted those seeds in your head.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Absolutely, or there might not be an HR department.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

So um that's an issue because literally, where do you go from there?

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Yeah, precisely.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

If your line manager is the person that is causing the issue. Yes. And others, and maybe that person's manager as well, you you literally have nowhere to go.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

And then it's exactly what happens is people then just they just leave. And you don't realise this, and so you only find out later on, and that's where you might then might then begin to think, oh, maybe it wasn't just me, maybe this is happening. But then you could also think, well, maybe they've left because they've got a better opportunity. You don't know they've left because of that person.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

You don't, and you know, organizations should be doing exit interviews, they should, yes, but it just it just reminded me of uh 20 years ago I left a job, and and and in part because of the awful manager, and um it was that awful manager that did my exit interview, and I thought, you know what, I'm leaving, I'm just gonna say it all anyway, and I did, and um the main thing that came out of that was that he told me that I ate too many McDonald's, so because it was a company policy to have a McDonald's on a Friday, he was like, You should not be joining in that, you need to eat more healthily. That's what came out, so yeah, so it there I don't the point I'm making is I don't think there's an ideal um procedure, or you know, if somebody wants to be like that, they're gonna be like that regardless. Unless you've got a strong HR department or a strong overall manager, but I think there is something in doing the exit interview anyway, because you can't change it for you, but you might be able to change it for somebody else, and you know, you might not, but at the same time you've got to try, I think. Yeah, well, hopefully they stop their McDonald's Fridays.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Well, exactly. The other problem, of course, though, and I this has happened on a couple of occasions. I know that I've given the exit interview, but then they've restructured straight after. So I don't think it's got anything to do with me or the exit interview. That's just the way of organisations.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Um, well, if you are worrying about anything relating to HR, um, please do look at the ACAS website. That is one of the best forms of free help out there. And you can, there's contact forms as well, so you can contact them directly.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

They are very good.

SPEAKER_04 39:07

Yeah, don't think you are alone. There are charities that can help and so on, but if you are doing your own research, the ACAS website is the place to go.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

They're great, and also your union. If you can join a union, if you don't have a union, join Unison. They're also very supportive. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

And from all of us here at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy weekend.