Most Contractors Stay Broke Because of Isolation

In this episode of Trade Traction, Dennis sits down with Jason, incoming PCCC National President, to talk about leadership, contractor relationships, trade shows, and what it really takes to grow in the plumbing, heating, and cooling industry.

If you’re a plumbing, HVAC, or mechanical contractor tired of working hard without seeing real profit, this conversation is packed with practical insight. Jason shares how getting involved in industry associations opened unexpected doors, built lifelong relationships, and created opportunities that directly impacted business growth.

You’ll hear why trade shows matter more than most contractors realize, how networking can solve real business problems, why strong contractor relationships outperform competition, and how today’s leaders are preparing for major shifts like AI, staffing challenges, and the next generation of ownership.

⏱ Chapters:
0:00 Introduction to Jason & Trade Traction
1:18 Jason’s Business in the Trades
3:02 Becoming APCC National President
5:15 How Contractor Networking Opens Doors
8:04 Why Trade Shows Matter for Contractors
11:10 Getting the Most Out of Industry Events
14:32 Relationships That Save Your Business
18:05 Why Contractors Should Stop Competing
21:14 AI and Technology in Plumbing & HVAC
24:46 Why Owners Need to Leave the Business Sometimes
27:35 Losing Key Employees and Rebuilding Teams
31:12 Leadership Lessons for the Next Generation
34:05 Final Thoughts on Growth in the Trades

Trade Traction helps plumbing, heating, and cooling contractors stop working for free, improve profitability, and build the business they once dreamed of.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you're running a plumbing, heating, or cooling company and it feels like you're solving every problem alone, price mistakes, hiring mistakes, insurance mistakes, cash flow pressure, you're paying for lessons that other contractors already learned years ago. And the truth is a lot of contractors stay stuck, not because they aren't working hard enough, but because they're isolated. Today you're going to hear why the contractors who grow faster, protect their margins, and survive the hard seasons usually have one thing in common. They build the right relationships before they need them. Jason Pritchard has built businesses, served in industry leadership, and is now stepping into national leadership as president of PACC because he understands exactly how connections change what's possible for a contractor.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I can pick up the phone. I probably don't always have the answer, but I know somebody else who has the answer.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

In this conversation, you'll hear how one relationship solved a real insurance crisis, why trade shows matter more than most owners realize, and how the right network can save you years of expensive mistakes. If you're tired of working hard, but still feeling like you're carrying too much alone, this episode's for you. I had three sewer jobs open, ready for inspection, and I couldn't get the permit, it was like red flagged in Seattle. And there was some new insurance auditor guy who came through the city and flagged our policy as not adequate. We didn't have subsidence of land coverage. Well, that's like if you dig a trench beside a house and then the house could slide into the trench, right? Well, it was a mistake. Our insurance didn't have it, so it took a couple weeks to figure that out. But I had three side sewers open and it was a PHC member that covered my permits. Like if I wasn't a PACC member and we didn't we weren't friends, like who's gonna risk their business on my three jobs, a competitor's jobs, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah, that's what we do. You know, I mean we're out there day in and day out, you know, you know, competing for customers, competing for business and all that stuff. But really, when we all get in the room together, we work to solve industry problems, and then we absolutely work to solve each other's problems. And that's the coolest part. Last year, PHCC member kind of paused what he was doing with his own business and jumped in hands-on to another PHCC contractor's business that was struggling and helped write the ship. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

I mean, who does that?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

You know, and that just speaks to the character of the PHC C contractor and a true understanding of elevating the industry and having good contractors out there makes us all look better.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

So trade traction, I'm trying to help people, apprentices, techs, business owners stop spinning their wheels and get going in their trade. And you're going places, man, you've arrived.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, I'm trying to anyway. I'm getting there. I think I'm getting there. You know, um, it's been a busy year. Yeah, you know, got the business going on, of course, Pride Corps. Um, just just plugging away day in and day out. You know, we we like to help contractors provide sewer repair and replacement services for their customers. So business to business, and and uh yeah, we're lining up a lot of work there and making some good connections there, you know. I mean, that's that's what it's all about. We're we're in the relationship business there. We uh don't just service people, we create partnerships that are that are long lasting and mutually beneficial. So we're really proud of the work we've done there and the and the people we develop and the team we've got.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

So yeah, you're like a you're like a name brand in the Seattle area, working for all sorts of plumbing companies that don't that the job's too big.

unknown 3:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Or they don't like doing drain cleaning or pipe bursting, that kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yep, exactly. So wherever the contractor service offering stops, that's where we can come in and go, hey, don't turn the job away, send it to us, take care of your customer, and and uh then go get the next one.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Awesome. So then how on earth are you here? How amazing now you're a PACC incoming national president.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Oh my gosh, that's wild. That's wild when I just hear you say that. Uh how did that happen? I you know, I it's honestly it's a whirlwind, you know. Um I I served as state chapter president for three years and uh had a great time doing that and just kind of uh helping build the chapter and and and you know, kind of just laying helping lay the foundation for what things are right now. And uh just it's I'm really proud and impressed with the work that uh you and Todd are doing out there and um having the opportunity to watch that thing take off. That's a lot of fun. And and next thing you know, I'm you know, I'm uh on the National Board of Directors and uh served some time there and it makes it sound like a prison sentence actually. It's a really it's a it's an awesome opportunity as you you found out, you know, um you meet a lot of great people and you really start to see how um you know being a part of something like that has an impact on not just uh the the people within the association, but the industry as a whole. Yeah, you know, the advocacy efforts and uh you know the workforce development and the apprenticeship training that we're providing, um, you know, being able to have a a role in developing and and promoting all that stuff is is awesome. Um and man, next thing you know, um decided, hey, I'm gonna run for national president. Why not? You know, I'm here. Um I got I got some things I can provide. Um I you know got to observe some really great leadership on the way there. And uh some guys helped me along and and said, hey, let's go, let's do this. And so I'm just really excited for the opportunity, really, really humbled to be the leader of uh you know the PHC and and the trade industry as a whole here. So very excited.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So how did it all start, Jason? How like you're running it you're running your uh PICOR back in Seattle. What what how what inspired you to get involved with PHC? A lot of comp a lot of contractors don't even know what PHC is or that it even exists.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

I didn't know what it was. Um I kind of came across to Bill Buckingham, uh Southwest Plumbing. Uh he's a past national board director. Um he he kind of introduced me to it and I went, wow, this this is kind of cool. Wow, you know, because plumbing contractors are my my customers essentially. And I kind of went, wait a minute, they meet once a month and they're all here in a room together. I don't have to, I don't have to hunt and peck and go find them. They're all they're all together. Okay, let's do that. So it started off as a networking opportunity for for my business. And um through that, just just ruined a lot of other things. And um I I began to understand the importance of um not just working with customers and finding partners there, but in uh in hoping solve problems in the industry and uh hearing what they were dealing with, and okay, well, how collectively can we collaborate on these things and and make some progress together? So it, you know, that's how it started off as a networking opportunity. Hey, you know, my customers are here, I'm gonna be there, and then uh the ability to step up and just say, hey, you know, we got we got some work to do together. We can we can help each other out in a lot of ways. Yeah, so that that's that's where it all started, and uh man, it just keeps on getting better from there.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

You just keep going through open doors.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Yeah, yeah, you're going through open doors and you're dragging me through them after you come along, Dennis. I remember the day like I'm at a board meeting all of a sudden, hey, you're gonna be secretary. I'm like, what's the secretary do? I think I said yes before I asked.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, I think so. I think you went, okay, I'll do it. And then wait, wait, what's what's the job again? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

And then all of a sudden it's like, yeah, you're gonna be on the board. What board? The national board.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

What? Yeah, yeah. Are you sure? Yeah, I'm moving up. You gotta move up too. Let's go. Let's go. Let's do this together. So it's it's been a lot of fun, man.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

It has been. Yeah. So you're the incoming president. I get I get to bring you up, dude.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I get to induct you.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, that's super cool, man. I love having you there, you know, and it's what's cool about that is, you know, it's uh an example of the friends you make along the way. Totally. And the and the and the role that they can play in your lives. I mean, um, as I've had the opportunity to travel around the country with PHCC, I've made amazing friends. I mean, lifelong friends, lifelong. And there are people I can pick up the phone. Hey, you know, I got this thing going on at work, or man, how I remember you talking about something. Fill me in on that. What you know, what what how'd you deal with that? How'd you overcome that? And and conversely, I get the same thing. You know, I get folks calling me up and and hey, hey, hey Jason, we're running to something here. How can you help? And I probably don't always have the answer, but I know somebody else who has the answer. And a lot of that is because of connections made through PHC and uh just being a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

So these these shows, like a lot of people don't I didn't go to trade shows for years. I had friends uh that that always begged me to go and I never went. I was always too busy making money, right? Yeah, darling. Trying to make money, right? And now I don't want to miss, and every time I show up, I'm always shocked at how fun it is. That the keynote was talking about connection. And uh man, we can't get people to go to bed at night here. Like everybody's just jabbering away.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

And yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, we we got a lot to say, and uh there's just fascinating people talking about things they're passionate about. And when you find somebody that's passionate about something, you can't break away from that. You know, you know, it's like okay, they they've got some love here, especially when we like it too, right? Oh, yeah, all in the same industry, right? Yeah, totally. So, you know, you look around the trade show floor here, you know, you got uh everybody's here, Milwaukee Tools, uh, you know, that look around everybody's here, and yeah, it's fun. There's an electricity about it once it gets rolling. So totally this is one of my favorite parts of of Connect is coming through and talking to talking to the suppliers and man, what brought you here? Right, you know, what do you got? What do you what do you got to offer us? And uh, and they're just so excited to have the opportunity to be here with us and show us what what's new and exciting in the industry, and um yeah, it it it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

So, how do you get the most out of a trade show, Jason? Like I think it seems like a lot of people just kind of show up a lot of times it's their first time, it's pretty overwhelming. But now you've been a while, what are some tricks to uh get the most out of a out of a trade show?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

I like to get to know the people, you know. I mean they they took their time and they they brought their stuff out here, they unpacked, they traveled. Um, you know, I that's really what I want to do. I want to, you know, I I love knowing about their products, but I want to know the the individuals. I want to know, you know, what are you about? You know, but and through that you get a better understanding of the product they're they're selling or or what they're trying to to get from me. That to me, that's the biggest part of all of this is just getting to know people on a more personal level and and understanding where they're coming from and and what they're doing here. And man, what brings you to the the PHC Connect Trade Show today? What you know, what excited you about this coming here? You know, what are you hoping to find from this? And then you get to talking about you might talk about their product they're selling, but you usually you get to know the people a little bit and and uh later on you see them and and then you that that's the thing, you probably run into them later and they oh hey, remember this? You don't forget, and and uh so I look forward to that, and I look forward to the calls later on and and revisiting some of these things as they like, hey, remember we we met at the trade show, like, oh yeah, okay. And uh so it you you get a lot of connection that way. You get a you the people you meet and uh just the excitement and what they bring, the energy they bring is the best part.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah. I'm always shocked. Like that's like what PHC means to me. I've been saying it's uh like digging your well before you're thirsty, and you don't know where these relationships are going to benefit you, but but they will not that you're doing it to benefit you, but as you build your network of people and you know people and people know you, that always pays off somehow in the future.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Always, it always comes back around at some point, doesn't it? Um, you know, I I look at our executive director, Todd Alred, yeah, you know, and uh what a great resource he is. And uh who would have thought he went from you know plumbing contractor to um man, he he he decided, man, I love this so much. I want to I want to lead our state chapter. I want to be, you know, and it's it's his it's his calling, you know, he puts his heart and soul into it every day. And um, you know, having met Todd and he's he's a big reason I've ended up here today, actually. Uh when I was state chapter president, Todd made the comment, like, hey, you know what? We're gonna make you national president. You're crazy, man. You're out of your mind. Geez. And uh, you know, sure enough, here we are.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

And uh, but yeah, digging your digging your well before you're thirsty, that that makes a lot of sense. You never know when you're gonna need that water. You better, you better be prepared.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah. Well, I remember a time back when we were I had three sewer jobs open, ready for inspection, and I couldn't get the permit was like red flagged in Seattle. I'm like, what's going on? We've been like everything's been good for decades.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

And there was some new insurance auditor guy who came through the city and flagged our policy as not adequate. And it's like we didn't have subsidence of land coverage. And like, what's subsidence of land coverage? Like, what are you talking about, dude? Well, that's like if you dig a trench beside a house, and then the house could slide into the trench, right? That's subsidence of land. Yeah. Well, it was a mistake. Our insurance didn't have it, and the city never caught it. So um anyway, so it took a couple weeks to figure that out with insurance and get that fixed. But I had three side sewers open and it was a it was a PACC member that covered my permits.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Really?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Like if I wasn't a PACC member and we didn't we weren't friends, like who's gonna who's gonna risk their business on my three jobs, a competitor's jobs, right? Yeah, yeah. It was a PACC member. Yeah, and that's the thing. It was Bill.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Oh, no kidding, no kidding.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

He said no, and then he called me back 20 minutes later. He's like, I know you, Dennis. Like, I'll take care of it. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

See my name. That's that's what we do. You know, I mean, we're out there day in and day out, you know, you know, competing for customers, you know, competing for business and all that stuff. But um, really when we all get in the room together and uh you know, we we work to solve industry problems, and then we we absolutely work to solve each other's problems. Totally, you know, and that's the coolest part. There's this um last year uh PHCC member uh kind of paused what he was doing with his own business and jumped in hands-on to another PHC C contractor's business that was struggling and helped write the ship. Yes, I mean what a story that was.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Who does that?

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I mean, that's remarkable, you know, and that just speaks to the character of the PHC C contractor and a true understanding of you know, elevating the industry and different things that you can do to do things, you know, to to pick things up and and having good contractors out there makes us all look better, you know. So um, yeah, that that's just an amazing story.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

I I think one of the reasons like to me that speaks up so many times when we start business, we see each other as competitors. But really, I had a tech tell me this. We're not competing, we're like we're like golfers playing uh uh uh a golf course. Like we're all we're competing, but we're really competing against the golf course, right? Right? We're not trying to beat each other up. No, we're trying to beat the golf course. Yeah, and I hope I beat it better than you beat it, but we're not competitors, we're competing against the golf course, and that's how business is.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And so we you gotta get rid of that looking at each other as competitors and help each other. There's plenty of work. There's not enough plumbers out there, right? Right. So there's no need reason to worry about that. So now let's see how good we can be in the marketplace.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yep, exactly. And that that's a that's a good uh comparison there. They're playing the golf course. Yeah. Uh, you know, my are my are my irons gonna be a little bit better today? Is the wind gonna knock me down a little bit? You know, what's yeah, what's gonna affect me? You know, am I I gotta am I am I following through a little bit too heavy today? What you know, what's gonna affect uh I think I need to start playing golf.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I don't you're you got I I think I know what you're talking about. I gotta get out more.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I man, I I played a little too much golf probably this this last summer. And uh, you know, the funny thing about golf is I I I played more than I have in a long time, and I'm not any better at it. Yeah, I didn't get better. I don't know what it is. It's kind of like business too. Yeah, yeah, right. You keep on rolling and uh you think you got it figured out, and then all of a sudden AI is answering the phones.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

It's like, wait a second. Yeah, I was good at answering the phones, now what am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and that's another thing about being here is you're you're able to get you're get yourself uh caught up and up to date on what are the business trends in this industry. And uh man, it is critical. It's not optional anymore to be technologically savvy and understand how all this stuff works. Um, because if you're not doing it, somebody else is. And uh, you know, that's it's it's an attraction for customers and it's an attraction for employees. And uh it makes it really tough to do business if you're not up to speed on all the stuff that's going on. And so there's there's a lot of that here on the floor today. A lot of different technologies available that are that are helping contractors service customers and train people and and new tools to utilize that um you know just a year ago they weren't out there, you know. And and so uh big part of being here is just man, what am I missing out on? What do I need to know?

SPEAKER_02 16:43

I uh a mentor of mine, Jim Rohn, he all he would say ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is devastation.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And is that true or what?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

100% you've got to know what's going on or you're just gonna get obliterated. Yeah, totally. The other thing is like people say, Well, why did I I go out of town for a show? But to me, getting out of town helps you get away from the business. And uh for Kimley and I, it was always a way to really look back and see what our company needed and get a really fresh uh outtake on it.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Oh, yeah, having the ability to get that, you know, 10,000 foot view um without all the distractions. You gotta get 10,000 feet away first. Exactly, exactly. You know, yeah, get here. Um, you know, and you begin to put the pieces together as you're looking walking around, you're talking to people, and you're looking at things like, oh man, you know, that I could plug this in here and you know, uh this is gonna make my guys so much better, and it's gonna make my customer experience so much better. Um, you know, it's gonna make me more efficient, um, more profitable, you know. So uh yeah, being able to get away is important. It's hard. It's yeah, I get it, man.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

You feel like the you you hope the business is not is there when you get back.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people, that's that's a real struggle of going, man, do I uh is it worth the investment? And uh, you know, is something gonna happen while I'm gone? Well, you know, something may happen while you're there, you know. So you know, get here and uh you know, give yourself that opportunity to at least explore what's going on and the the those critical things are are the connections you make, the people you meet, and just that resource alone makes this trip worth it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Well, I think I think I remember going leaving for the first time the business and being scared about that. But if they know you're not going to Maui to put your feet up, they know you're going to a work event and um you're gonna come back with some good ideas to help everybody else out. Goes a long way. And you get you have to start trusting your employees. And I've I never came back to a disaster. Yeah, right. Because I was gone, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah. They know what to do. If you did your job right already, they know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

It feels kind of good to do the right thing when the boss isn't around.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

It's like yeah, yeah, yeah. They unlock the doors and answer the phone and yeah, yeah, and get out there and get make things happen. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah. So take care of them for it, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Speaking of trade traction, getting traction, was there a time when you were stuck either as a tech or running the business? And then how'd you get unstuck?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Oh man, which time? Exactly. What happens all the time? All the time.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

It's constant.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Well, you know, um recently, you know, we uh man, we we had a challenge with our sales team, okay, you know, and um they had some guys that we trained and developed, and uh they these guys were amazing. They did a fantastic job for us. And they they reached a point where they they you know collectively, you know, one at a time said, Hey, you know what, we kind of want to go start our own thing. Yeah, right. And man, that is a it is a bittersweet thing to go, man. You you know, you came in, you were uh bicycle mechanic, and now you're making a lot of money. Hey, what's wrong with bicycle mechanics? Not a thing, not a thing, yeah. You know, but not a thing wrong with not that's not a slight bicycle mechanics, but you know, that to what to watch them progress from that to you know to to making six figures plus, you know, and and to go, hey, you know, we invested, you we invested together, and uh man, now you're now you're gonna go do your own thing. That's exciting, that's terrifying, and yeah, but you know, very cool that I I played a part in preparing you for that. 100%. And uh so that that that that was a tough one for us, you know. You lose good salespeople, and and you know, we had to begin the process of of hiring and training and and going through the whole thing again, a little bit of a a rebuild, but um it just it just took some diligence, it just took the some identifying what we were looking for, and uh, you know, hey, let's let's work through the process and let's let's you know, we we know we'll see the results, but we need to be patient. You know, yeah, we need to take our time. Let's say we we are in a hurry, but we can't we can't rush. Right. Trying to make sure we get it, get it right, get the right people, get them the right tools, get them the right information, um, you know, get them have them uh collectively understand how what we're trying to do, you know. So it was a process of bringing people in, making sure they knew you know what we were about as a company and what we wanted to portray to our customers and and how we wanted to relate to them. And uh so we're on the upward climb from that. So it's it's kind of cool to see that. It's a tough experience, yes. Um, but it's been very cool to go through and and see the progress and see the stepping stones we've gone along.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, Jason, that's always tough. What I what I've discovered is every time I lose a key person, something all nature abhors a vacuum. And I'm always surprised at what fills that gap. But I was just looking at a picture of my crew from like uh 10, 15 years ago, and every guy in the picture is in business for himself.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, and it's like now I now during the during it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

But looking back, it's a total sense of pride. Like, look at that crew, every one of those guys runs their business. Yeah, it's amazing. Going through that was a little tough.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

And and and it at the end of the day, it is absolutely a credit to you, you know, yeah, you know, to be able to say, Hey, I I developed these people and And yeah, good. Good for them. Man, go go do it. And he and he takes satisfaction in knowing that they're out there doing it the right way because you showed them the right way. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

You know, there's a little bit of me out there.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Yeah. Absolutely. Very cool. Well, Jason, I'm excited for you to be president at PACC.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Man, I can't wait. I can't wait. We got an awesome team coming aboard. You know, I think the the best part is we've, you know, we've as an industry we've we've committed to attracting youth. We want to bring the young people in and and the next generation of plumbing and HVAC contractors and get them going. And uh this new executive committee is full of youth. I'm I'm the oldest guy, I think. You know, yeah, you know, I'm 52. And I remember when I was you know first on the board of directors. Uh I was, I think I was 46, and I was the youngest guy at 46.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

And uh, you know, these guys are all in their mid 30s, early 40s, and coming in to run this thing. So, you know, we're committed to attracting the youth. Well, we made them leaders here, so which is super cool with me. So I'm excited to get to work with these guys.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Awesome. Jason, well, uh, I wish you luck and I'm on your side, and uh let's go.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Let's go, Dennis. Appreciate your support. Love what you're doing, and uh man, if you're not here in Grand Rapids, you're missing a great show. The weather's amazing, it's a beautiful town, and uh it's gonna be a great week. So thanks for having me on, Dennis.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

You got it. If there's one takeaway from this conversation, it's this the contractor who builds profitable businesses don't try to figure everything out alone. They ask better questions, they stay connected, and put themselves in rooms where they can learn faster. Because one conversation, one relationship, or one idea can save you years of causing mistakes. I want to cordially invite you to this year's PHCC Connect Show in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, this coming October 19th through 22. And be sure to connect with your local PHCC chapter to get started making connections that will serve you for the rest of your life. And if you're serious about turning your company into the business you originally dreamed of at the beginning, keep listening to people who've already walked that path. Let us know what you think in the comments and for sure subscribe to the show. We'll see you in the next episode.