The Trade Traction Podcast with Dennis The Apprentice
The Podcast that helps plumbing and heating contractors stop working for free and actually make a profit!
The Trade Traction Podcast with Dennis The Apprentice
Your Hiring Problem Has a Solution—Here's What Works
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
If you're tired of hiring people who say they know the trade… but then you realize they only know one small part of the job, this episode is for you.
Most contractors aren’t struggling because of lack of work… they’re struggling because of bad hires, weak training, and no real pipeline of skilled labor.
In this episode, you’ll learn how top contractors are fixing that, by actually knowing who they’re hiring, building stronger training systems, and creating a reliable workforce that drives profit instead of killing it.
Jennifer Wilkerson from NCCER breaks down how standardized training, real skill assessments, and national programs are changing the game for contractors across the country.
If you want better people, better systems, and better profit, this is the blueprint.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 – The Hiring Problem Every Contractor Faces
02:29 – Why “Skilled Workers” Aren’t Actually Skilled
04:36 – The Real Reason Contractors Lose Profit
06:40 – Labor Mistakes & Weak Training Systems
08:35 – How Smart Contractors Fix Hiring
10:27 – Building a Reliable Skilled Labor Pipeline
12:27 – Inside NCCER & Standardized Training
15:10 – How Skill Assessments Actually Work
18:03 – Programs Contractors Are Using Right Now
20:55 – Future of Hiring & Why This Matters
Podcast: Trade Traction Host: Dennis Hamon Guest: Jennifer Wilkerson (VP of Innovation & Advancement, NCCER)
The Podcast that helps plumbing and heating service contractors stop working for free and actually turn a profit.
Connect with me on social media: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dennistheapprentice/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064205912242 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dennistheapprentice
Thank you once again for your support and don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this podcast with your peers! Stay tuned for more exciting content coming your way every week.
If you're tired of hiring people who say they know the trade, but then you find out they only know one tiny piece of the job, this episode is for you. Because one of the biggest reasons contractors keep working harder without seeing real profit is simple labor mistakes, weak training, and no reliable pipeline of skilled people. Today you're going to hear how smart contractors are solving that problem before it costs them money. And to help us do that, I'm joined by Jennifer Wilkerson, Vice President of Innovation and Advancement at NCCER, the National Center for Construction Education and Research. Jennifer works with over 2,100 high schools, 500 community colleges, contractors, associations, and correctional programs nationwide helping standardize construction training so contractors actually know what skill level they're hiring.
SPEAKER_01So we created a journey level assessment program so that if you've been in the field and you never had formal training, come and let us assess you.
SPEAKER_00That means instead of guessing whether someone can actually perform, you can know exactly where they are and train from there.
SPEAKER_01We have lots of contractors that use us directly and set up their programs.
SPEAKER_00In this conversation, you'll hear how contractors are building better labor pipelines, why Skills USA is producing serious future talent and why showing up this June in Atlanta could change how you hire forever. If you want better people, better systems, and better profit, stay with us. Jennifer, welcome to the Trade Traction Podcast here at Skills USA.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me here.
SPEAKER_00Yes. You're with N C C E R. Yes. I don't know anything about that, and you guys are everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. That's a problem, though. Nobody knows about us, right? So we're the National Center for Construction Education and Research.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01We're a nonprofit education foundation.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh we were born out of industry, uh primarily industrial, but commercial academia, uh, back in the early 90s, just trying to figure out a way. How do we make sure that there's consistency and training? How do we make sure that if someone comes to you, you're a contractor, you want to hire them, how do I know what kind of training they've had if they got it from another company? So, really what they asked us to do, they spun off a nonprofit. They said, we want you to develop, maintain, keep up curriculum. We want to make sure there's some type of system that we we can go in and find out has someone had the training? How much training have they had, whether it's carpentry, electrical, welding, whatever that is. We want them to have some kind of credential that that allows us to know how they've done. And then assessments, like, you know, we started it and they were like, let's train the people. Well, guess what? There was a whole bunch of people already in the industry trained that never got recognized for what they did. So we created a journey level assessment program so that if you've been in the field and you never had formal training, come and let us assess you. Right. Let's give you recognition for what you've done, and then let's help find some of the skills gap that as a contractor, if this person's employed with you, then you can scale them up further. So that's grown to the point where we're in over 2,100 high schools, we're in 500 community colleges, we're in uh industry associations. We work with ABC and AGC and the American Subcontractors Association. We're in correctional facilities having great success uh with the recidivism rates and states helping those people be able to come out and be ready to be hired. And through the credentialing system, contractors can go, okay, they did two levels of masonry or they did a couple levels of pipe fitting, whatever that might be, and they can hire them and then start training them where they left off.
SPEAKER_00And they know where they're at.
SPEAKER_01They know where they're at.
SPEAKER_00I that's that's a huge uh that's a huge win because uh I used to own a plumbing and heating company, residential service. And so people come in and say they know all this stuff. Bingo. And they might even have a license, right? But they got a license setting bathtubs for three years, so they're a journal and plumber that knows how to set bathtubs. Right. Like literally, one guy said I set bathtubs for a year and a half, and that's why I quit because that's all I know how to do. Yeah, and so um that's a huge problem.
SPEAKER_01And so you're solving that problem by creating standards, absolutely, and consistency, and we develop the curriculum, so there's typically four levels. So we build it so if someone wants to use this as an apprenticeship program, so we meet the DOL, Office of Apprenticeship, 144 classroom hours uh a year, and then we have performances. Everything we do, they have they have a performance profile where they have to show that they can do it. I know it, I can do it, but it fits beautifully in apprenticeship. If someone doesn't want apprenticeship, they can pick and choose out of the modules, they can build their own programs or they can do the programs as they're set up, but it doesn't have to be a registered program. It could be whatever you need.
SPEAKER_00You mean they be like a school?
SPEAKER_01A school, a contractor. We have lots of contractors that use us directly and set up their programs. So whether that's Kewitt, whether that's uh Mortenson, whoever that might be, Turner Industries, they use our programs and and some of them hire directly out of high school. Right. And they like to hire these kids that started within CCR, got a little bit of the intro to construction, and then they can kind of continue with them in those programs.
SPEAKER_00Very good. So you've got contractors using your programs that that's how they do their training, their in-house thing. Yep. So their in-house training is already built. Already built. They just bring it in-house. Yes. We'll get back to the show in one second, but real quick, are you a plumbing or HVAC contractor who's staying busy, the trucks are rolling, the bills are getting paid, but there's still not enough left over in the bank? For most contractors, the real issue comes down to one of three things pricing, service, or hiring and retention. But it's hard to know which one needs attention first. That's why I created this short assessment. It's just 17 questions, takes about two minutes, and helps you pinpoint what's costing you money right now. When you finish, I'll give you key training advice based on your results so you know what to work on next. So if you want clarity on what to fix first in your business, I'll leave a link in the bio, take the assessment, and see where you stand. All right, back to the show. Sorry, Bill.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, but we're in a crediting body. So the way that we make sure that that it's up to standards is not only do we use our subject matter experts from industry to update our curriculum, but we have a process that if you want to use in CCR, you need to apply for accreditation, which means do you have the resources to do the teaching? Do you have the the materials? Do you have everything? And we will sort of we have a train the trainer program. So someone comes, you we train your trainers, we certify your instructors, we certify your evaluators, your proctors, we have a whole system that's in place to make sure that a company is successful or a school is successful, whoever might be doing that.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So I built my own apprentice program because I didn't know anything existed. Right. So I'm part of PACC, the Pundal Leading Cooling Conceptor. They had a program, but I didn't know it existed, so I built my own thing. So you've you fixed that problem for all trades.
SPEAKER_01Right. So we're we do 40 different craft areas. Right. 40 different craft. Everything, whether it's welding, pipe fitting, some of the traditional ones, all the way to solar photovoltaic, instrumentation, mill right. You have all of those programs.
SPEAKER_00Very cool. And you're talking about you're going into the the uh jails and prisons and training. You know, I talked to a guy uh in Seattle, and he was talking about um, he said, you know why we have a gang problem is these kids are playing high school football at a high level, they're physical and they're focused. And then if they don't make it to college, what do they do with all that energy? Yeah, and so there's nowhere for them to go. He he was, I think he was from England, and he was talking about all the other countries have leagues of different things that that they continue in their sport, even but in the US, if you don't go to college, it's kind of the end of the road. Yep, and so that's why we have a game. These guys get they're bored, they're used to being physical, and now it's focused, and now it's not focused. Yeah, so you've got these kids in in uh that are getting in trouble that just needs some physicality, yes, and it needs to be focused in the trades, right? Yeah, come to us, yeah. Construction, here we are. Yeah, these kids are all these what's cool about Skills USA is these kids are this is like the Olympics for the trades. Yeah, and these kids are all competitive and the physical. I really think blue collar is the original professional athletes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I do, right? And you know what's interesting right now? I I hear this term a lot industrial athlete.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That the the people that are in construction, and I'm sure manufacturing, whatever it might be, I'm just more familiar with construction. We call them industrial athletes. In fact, there's some programs that they're doing now to help train people about your nutrition, your health, because it was neglected, right? Like, you know, as you're saying, you've been in construction a long time. Yeah, you just go and do the job. And we'll have you work six tens and 12 sets, you know.
SPEAKER_00And you stop by and get a couple of Red Bulls and a beef jerky and uh ding dongs and head to work, right? And it's like, oh my goodness, you are a professional athlete. Exactly. Like, take care of your body because your body's what makes your money.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, 110%.
SPEAKER_00I when that really hit home for me, I I hired this apprentice and uh super nice guy. And for some reason, I didn't see him for about three months after I hired him. And when I saw him again, he'd lost like 20 pounds. Oh wow. He didn't seem like he didn't seem like he was overweight to start with. But when I saw him, like, well, you lost weight, and he's like, Yeah, I've lost like 20 pounds going in and out of the truck, right? Oh, yeah. And he goes, I feel great. And he was so excited. And I was like, Wow, if a 20-year-old can experience losing 20 pounds and feeling so much better in his job, imagine what these blue-collar guys that are a little heavy working underburden, a little bit older already. Yes, like health is important. It is important, and it makes their job so much harder. Yes, but a 20-year-old was so excited that he lost 20 pounds and he was just bounding in and out of the truck. Well, you know what? It's great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's what I'm seeing right now, I mean, overlooked. But right now, I go around, talk to a lot of contractors, do different conferences and stuff, and finally the contractors are seeing that as something they need to help with. Yes, right, because we have we have a critical shortage in construction. So not only do we need to attract people, we need to retain the people we already have. Yes, and the only way to retain them is to help them be better, skill them up more, help them with their health, help them with mental health, whatever it is. And I'm talking to contractors now, and I hear them more willing to do that than ever before. I'm hearing about programs, gyms, stuff they're doing at some of these companies. I'm like, in construction, this is fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I was at a software company. This is maybe 10 years ago now already, but I was at a software company, and when I went in there and saw what they were doing to recruit young people, you know, the foosball tables and the and the fine uh uh they have a chef and then a big nice kitchen. I'm like, the trades, we need to get with it. But that looks all glamorous, but in the trades, it's essential, right? This health and this and being physically fit. Yes, it's actually essential.
SPEAKER_01It is, it's absolutely essential. And I think what we offer, you know, you think about, oh, well, they have foosball, they do this and that. What we offer though is, you know, I always say this, you know, where's your office? Our offices have no walls. Like we can be wherever. Yeah, we're outside, we're on top of a mountain doing something, we're on top of a building, we're you know, you're you're in the Caribbean building something. I mean, you can go once you have skills, like you could go anywhere, and then your office can be anywhere you want it to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, uh I follow bicycle racing in Europe, like the Tour de France and stuff. Okay, and they talk about the the world as their stadium, right? All the people come out to the streets and follow them instead of a football stadium. But that's kind of like the trades too. Yeah. And I I know I knew my plumbers would be the really cool house, something they take a couple. Guess where I've sat in the day, you know? And so, yeah, the trade, you work wherever and you work at some pretty glamorous places.
SPEAKER_01You do, and I and it's hard work, but it's it's very uh, there's a lot of dignity in what we do, and there's a lot of, you know, I and you hear this all the time. I hear it all the time. People going, Yeah, my dad took me by here. He's like, I built that, or my mom, and and she worked over there for 10 years doing that, and she did, you know, that that what a legacy that we can leave leave behind to be able to tell our children all the accomplishment and see it. You get to see every day what you did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I this week I would I back have been talking about this. Imagine if like trades guys, we kind of make fun of them first saying that, right? Like the wives are all like, oh, give me a and the kids, and like, yeah, yeah, dad, we know, right? But that's what what a boost is you're driving through your town. Yes, and because because I I know all the jobs I worked out, and I know all the different people. And when you drive by a house, you remember those good things that happen in that house. You remember the bad things too, right? Right. But like, imagine not having that, and uh, it'd be kind of dull, yeah, really. And so these these tradespeople drive around seeing what they've done. I was talking to uh an iron worker yesterday, and he was talking about the stadiums he worked in and the skyscrapers he built. And when he looks at it, that's in his mind. It was a part of that. And it's always teamwork too. Yes, there's a ton of teamwork involved.
SPEAKER_01And you know what? That's the thing. We forget the doctors don't build the hospitals, the football players don't build the stadiums, the baseball players. It it's it's the tradespeople. We're the ones that build that. Yeah, I mean, and how incredible is that we what we don't do, we don't do a good job telling our story. No, we don't tell the story that that cancer center was built by this many craft professionals that had to be this highly skilled to be able to put that together and do that.
SPEAKER_00And they did it on time and under budget, right?
SPEAKER_01All the stuff in bad weather, good weather, whatever, they're able to get out there and do it. And that's that's people should be proud of that and should be interested in who built that, how did they build that? What does it take to build that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what's what's uh skills USA? So many people don't know about skills USA. I know crazy, right? Well, what's what's going on?
SPEAKER_01It's you know, I mean, it's kind of like you asking about NCCR too, like, oh, I don't even know who you are, and we've been around since '96. Yeah. Um, I've so I think the good news is people are starting to hear about skills. I've talked to a lot of people here. This was their first time, but I didn't even know about this, and here I am. Um, but yeah, it's it's I think it's because for so many years there was such a focus on college. I mean, let's be honest. Yes, we didn't look at the kids that were in career tech. It used to be called vocational education, and then that got a bad rep. So then we had to rename it and give it a facelift, and we call it career and technical education, but it was always, oh, those are those students. Yeah, those are the students over there. So people didn't take interest. But then now we are at such a great time in history because all of a sudden everybody's taking a second look. Yeah, and we know what we need in society, and we know what we need in this country and the people we need, and it's skilled professionals that we need. So I think what's happening finally is we're shining the light on the rest of the people. Yeah, you know, people go to college, great. Listen, I want somebody that went to college to do surgery on me. 110%. Yes. But everybody doesn't need to go to college. Right. What they need are skills, certifications. And here's the thing that's the misnomer is oh, well, if they don't go to college, they're not skilled or trained. Where did that come from?
SPEAKER_00It is higher education. It's Are you kidding me? Apprenticeship, four years. Yes. I I've heard I've heard parents say, Well, I want my kid to get a higher education. Um, this is a higher education. Yes. Like that's a misnomer. It's a mis disconnect.
SPEAKER_01It really is. It's a super, so I think with skills, I mean, I hope that it's becoming better and better known at Skills USA, because you know, you come here, all these people that are like, Oh, the kids today don't want to work in that, and you come here and you're like, um, you need to show up at Skills USA. Because when you come here, you're like, Yeah, this is this is the next generation right here that's doing this.
SPEAKER_00These kids are super and the kids that are bored is because that they just haven't found their gift yet. Absolutely. And as soon as they I saw a kid, uh, my my kids on Boy Scouts, and I I I kind of had this negative opinion of this one kid. Like he was just kind of a little bit of a troublemaker, not really interested, not very motivated, and seemed kind of lazy. And then one time he came up to my kid and I saw brightness in his eyes, and he says, Are you gonna be in class tomorrow? And then he said, he said, um, he says, Oh, dumb collection, I know you're gonna be there. And I'm like, What class? And it was automotive, and he found he loved mechanics and his eyes, you could see the spirit in his eyes pop. Yeah, I call it shining eyes. Yeah, and so he found it, and now I see him he's walking, he's his the way he walks is different, and it's all because he found something nice. Absolutely and he's good at it. Yes, and now he's bought a cool car, he's fixing it up and all that kind of stuff, and he's got now he's got a pathway, and it totally changed how this kid presents himself in the world in the world.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Listen, I taught high school English 13 years, yeah, and I'm telling you, there were so many kids that were so bright, they just didn't need to sit in the seat in English class all day long, and they didn't need to do that. And then we think, oh, that kid's fidgety, and that kid, they have attention deficit disorder. Hey, let's stop labeling it like that and just say, this kid learns differently. We need to, and our education system does wrong by probably 75% of our population. Yes, because just don't do it all the way, what all the same way. Yeah, we're not all built the same. Yeah, and we need to start thinking about people learn and talk about math, applied math. You know how much faster students learn math when they know there's a reason why they're learning it?
SPEAKER_00My kid my kid did some something out on a tree house. He was building something. He comes back in and he says, The Plague Ethereum works. I'm like, the what? The plague. I can't even say it. And I go, What is that? And he recited it to me and said he just used it to figure something out in a treehouse. Yes, it blew my mind.
SPEAKER_01Because once they do it, then it's like bingo, yeah. And then I was telling you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like the the what I remember that. It was that was something about a triangle or something. Um so you mentioned these disorders. We call them disorders. Yeah, they're actually superpowers in the trade. Yeah, we need ADD kids, dyslexic kids. They are all my almost every one of my top producers in my company had some kind of supposed disorder. Right, right. But it was actually a superpower in the trades.
SPEAKER_01Listen, when I taught school, there were so many kids, they're medicating kids in ninth, tenth, earlier than that, yes, medicating kids, and we're like, wait, I'm like, that don't do this to the kid. And I would see kids, I had this one kid I remember, and he was like always in every conversation, super excited. Some of the other kids we get tired of him, always wanting to talk. And his parents ended up putting him on medicine. I saw this kid a year later after I hadn't had him in my class anymore, totally different, very somber, just walking around, just what and I'm just thinking, so this is better. This is better. Let's think about what we just said.
SPEAKER_00It's just like putting your kid on a on an uh iPad so that they'll be quiet. Yeah. And it's like it's it's really selfish.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's super selfish. It's hey, listen, with our two girls, we go outside. Like our two girls weren't allowed. I'm like, I mean, both of them are older now, but it was always like, no, you need to go outside. That's not, you don't need to play a game inside. Yeah, that's what the outside is for.
SPEAKER_00It does take discipline. I've got two grandkids, and it's it's they want to look at the smartphone. They do. And they and it takes you got to put it down and then they'll go play. But it, I I get it. Yeah, I see it.
SPEAKER_01No, but if you but you can balance that, you can balance that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely balance. They need to be good at that stuff, right? That's our modern world. Yes. But give them stuff to do outside and they'll go do it.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think that's why we have the tool belt generation coming up. You know, everyone's talking about wow, we've never had so many kids interested. This this is the first generation. Gen Z is digital natives, like they've never known anything. So my 23-year-old is in that, they've never known anything. You want to know why they're coming to the trades and doing things? Because I can do something with my hands.
SPEAKER_00It's a novelty, actually. It's like this is cool.
SPEAKER_01What? What? Because they already know how to do everything on a computer or phone. Yeah, I need to try something else. And so that's why I think we're seeing so many interested. Like, oh, I can do this. And and the energy you talked about, the the oh wow, now I can I can put this into that. And and we see, I mean, we're seeing the results of this help, you know, the whole problem with depression and bullying and all this stuff that's happened because of social media. And listen, I'm not saying social media is completely wrong. I'm just saying you need to give your kids something else to do besides be on the phone.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Very cool. Well, we're making a we're making a difference for sure. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, look around.
SPEAKER_00So there's all these t-shirts with NCCER today. What's up with that?
SPEAKER_01So we've been so we sponsor the Masonry Contest and we sponsor the uh carpentry contest. So we've been doing carpentry since 2010, I believe we've been we've been sponsoring it. And um, what we do is we come here and we need volunteers. So first time we started doing it, you know, we just need people to help with the technical committee, the judging, and all of this stuff setting up, and that kept growing. And then, you know, those employers they come and they're like, oh wait, I could hire these are the best of the best across the United States. I want this person, I want that person. And so we realized there was this opportunity. So we just started buying up more and more booth space. So we buy up a full section, and then we find contractors that want to come and meet the advisors and meet the students, potentially hire them, potentially connect with the school to have a talent pipeline and stuff. And we just are we set up the space, we do everything for them. And then the deal is they have to wear a t-shirt though. They have to we're like, you have to help us too. We're working together. But but they are um, I I love it. When when the contractors come here for the first time, yeah, they're just blown away. Yeah, absolutely blown. They're like, Are you kidding? Just what you said, like, I didn't know. I had no idea. Now they we were just talking to someone, they're like, oh no, next year our booth is gonna be even bigger. Like, we're we're gonna have better games for these kids to play.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I talked to two people in the last 24 hours that said, you know, the company's making cutbacks and budget and stuff. They're like, do whatever you want, but don't cut skills your SA. No. That's my baby. That's why I wanted to move on.
SPEAKER_01Wow, and you know, because training and recruitment gets cut first, right? Yeah. Oh, we're down, so we'll just nobody needs to train. Nobody needs, are you serious? Yeah, yeah. Like you need to keep doing that part of it. Cut something else.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure there's some other fat somewhere in the company. Absolutely for sure. What's the difference? Thanks for being on. You're doing work, great work. Keep it up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you are too. This is fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00If this episode gave you one idea you can use in your business this week, make sure you like, subscribe, and share trade traction so more contractors stop working for free and finally build the company they dreamed about. And if you're serious about your future workforce, join us June 1 through 5 in Atlanta, Georgia at Skills USA National Leadership and Skills Conference, because this is where the next generation of skilled trade talent is showing up. You'll see future technicians, future leaders, and future profit for your business all in one place. We'll see you there.