Cybernomics: Where Business Meets Tech

The Hidden Costs of Starting and Building a Cybersecurity Company

• Bruyning Media • Season 4 • Episode 2

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In this conversation, Joshua Bruyning engages with DataTribe Managing Directors Rob Ackerman and Leo Scott to explore the intricate dynamics of cybersecurity startups and venture capital. They discuss the essential qualities of successful founders, the importance of coachability, and the unique challenges faced in the cybersecurity landscape. The conversation delves into the investment process, the significance of building trust with CISOs, and the mission-driven nature of cybersecurity innovation. They also touch on the importance of location in fostering cybersecurity talent and the upcoming Cyber Innovation Day event.

Takeaways

  • The success of a cybersecurity company heavily relies on its founder.
  • Identifying winning founders involves looking for unique perspectives and expertise.
  • Coachability is crucial for startup founders to adapt and grow.
  • The investment process is collaborative, involving multiple team opinions.
  • A concentrated investment strategy allows for deeper support of fewer companies.
  • Cybersecurity startups face unique trust challenges with large enterprises.
  • Building relationships with CISOs is essential for startup success.
  • Failures are common in the startup world, and learning from them is vital.
  • The DC area is a hub for cybersecurity talent and innovation.
  • Community engagement is key to fostering trust and collaboration in cybersecurity.


Josh's LinkedIn

Speaker 1:

Instead of the managing directors, I would say you guys are really the cybersecurity whisperers founder whisperers, cybersecurity founder whisperers. That's what I understand.

Speaker 2:

I'll take that Whisperers or founder psychotherapists. Sometimes it can vary depending on the day.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know what I want to really dig into that and among other things we want to focus on how does AI really play into what you're doing? Because, in cybersecurity especially, everybody's trying to figure out how do we leverage AI. Cisos are trying to figure out how do I add AI to my stack. Does it actually add value? Is it all hype? We know it's not hype, but what part of it is hype and what part of it isn't? And, at the same time, we understand that the success of any company is going to be, to a great extent, the founder. It's going to be the person who has the idea.

Speaker 1:

And not to disparage anyone please, nobody come after me on LinkedIn but let's just say that in tech specifically, it is really rare to find founders and experts who are also business folks, who have the business acumen, and especially when you know you've been in the weeds your entire life but you've got this great idea. You understand that this solves a problem because in most cases, you were solving the problem in a way that is unique to you and that's how the solution was born. And so that's where you guys come in as the founder whispers and you say, hey, you know that, that that idea, there may be a market for it. And since there's a market for it, maybe we can build a company around it. So what are a few things that you look for when you find someone with an idea?

Speaker 1:

You know that is the holy grails being able to pick winners and losers. Pardon the expression, but let's face it in cybersecurity, especially like companies, don't? They come and they go. They pop into existence and they disappear. So what have you learned in terms of picking those founders that have an idea that's got legs? You know what are some of the markers that you look for in being able to make that prediction.

Speaker 3:

I think it's different for everybody, which I think where, like, having a team, is helpful because you get to bring all those ideas together. I'll answer for myself. You know, I think when I started out in venture capital and I was sort of new to this, I think I started more on the classic analogy of jockey or horse. I think I started more on the horse side and picking really interesting markets, and while I think markets are obviously really important, you got to understand what's going on within them I've definitely shifted much more to being, I think, betting on the jockey. Give me a really bright founder with that special something that we can talk about and they'll probably figure out how to make it happen. You know, when I think about that, it's a person that's really great at something. You need to be truly great at something, whether it's the technical side, the marketing side, the partnership side I think that's cliche when it comes to startup founders but someone that sees the world fundamentally differently. I think the big thing that we do at DataTribe and what we're able to do with being so early is we don't have to overly fixate on what are the current markets, what are the current trends, what are the current solutions. We can kind of look over the horizon and say what we think's next, and that really allows us to open our aperture to a bunch of founders who say, hey, I see the world differently, I know how everything's being done today, but I really believe that we can fundamentally try something different, and those are the people that we really want to look for.

Speaker 3:

A lot of really great guys come out of established companies with different ideas, but the ones that are truly trying to say like hey, everything's been done a certain way. I want to do it differently and I'm looking for someone to believe in that. And then there's all the little details like how good are you at presenting, how good are you at taking a really complex idea and making it really simple? I think sometimes, especially within cybersecurity, we tend to overly fixate on super technical. It's a very easy field to be like, hey, let's really geek out and nerd out and that's great and there's a lot to that. But at the end of the day, like when it comes to selling and go to market, you got to be able to dumb it down and tell a really simple story. And the founders that can kind of move between that super technical to the super. You know, basic layman sort of description of the product and what it does. Those really stand out to me personally.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to start a war here, but, Leo, are you on? Do you look for the same things? Are you guys aligned on this?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for the same things. Are you guys aligned on this? Yeah, I would say maybe a few different items. Certainly, I think we're looking for subject matter experts with passion. One of the key things we really look for in the early days is coachability.

Speaker 2:

The interesting thing there's a very delicate balance with founders. Like being a startup founder is you have to be a little bit crazy. Like it's not a completely rational decision, like I'm going to go out and do this thing. It's like very, very likely I'm going to fail. So you really have to have a ton of confidence in yourself. Like I'm going to go do this thing that pretty well, most everybody fails at, but I'm going to make it succeed. So you have to have a bit of an ego there and a bit of a kind of craziness, so you want that. But you have to also have humility to be open to feedback. Founders that are not able to really be open to feedback and continually learning are the ones. They could be amazing subject matter experts. They could have the passion, but they're going to struggle and particularly with our model, we're going to jump in and help out, so they need to be open to our help. We're often looking for that.

Speaker 3:

It's probably worth highlighting. Like Leo and I have very different backgrounds, I think it probably heavily influences how we approach these things. Leo has a very technical background and I won't speak for him, but my background you know. I'm an ex-military guy. I was not a technical guy. My degrees are in history and when I was in the military I got some exposure to more of the technical side of things. But I'm really focused on the people that are trying to accomplish the mission and I definitely skew more towards that. Leo has a much more technical background where he's able to like go a little bit deeper in terms of understanding the ones and zeros, if you will.

Speaker 2:

Hopefully we have enough kind of scars on our back and have made enough mistakes that if we can help the founders avoid just a few mistakes, then we're feeling pretty good about it. So who's the nerd and who's the free spirit? No, I think I would have to call myself the nerd. I don't know. I think we're all nerdy about our own respective things right.

Speaker 3:

We all have our own nerdiness right yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think everyone has to be a free spirit, though, right, I mean, I think it's hard to do early stage venture capital without being a free spirit. Like, I mean, I think to a certain extent, you're trying to identify outliers, you're trying to find things that nobody else sees, you know non-consensus bets. I think that attracts a certain mindset, regardless if you're technically nerdy or whatever. But it's also it is about building a complimentary set of skills in a team Everyone's nerdy, everyone's passionate about their topics, everyone's egotistical in hopefully healthy ways, and you pull that all together and you hope that, uh, it helps you, let you make good decisions.

Speaker 1:

So yeah Well, how do you navigate that? So I'm trying to play this through my head. Like you said, everybody's passionate, everybody thinks that their idea is the best thing since sliced bread, right, and you have to go through a particular process to weed out the ones that you think that are coachable, that can simplify a complex idea. What does that process look like? How do you start? You know, do you sit them in a room with a lamp over their head and, like, interrogate them until they, you know, until you're satisfied with their answers, or, you know, run me through a little bit of that process.

Speaker 2:

We do things, I think, a little bit different than many venture firms in the decision-making process. I mean, everybody's pretty collaborative but we're extra collaborative. So generally when we meet a new startup there'll obviously be some filtering, kind of making sure that it makes sense to continue talking with them. But we'll pretty quickly bring most of the team, as much of the team as possible together to meet with them and I'll just talk with them and get to know them and so we'll have we'll get a lot of different you know everybody's different opinions on the startup and I think that allows us to quickly kind of analyze from many different aspects, because many people on the team have we all have our kind of own different backgrounds and so we kind of look at things differently, and then also quickly really ramps the relationship up with the startup so that we can kind of really start to build a good relationship.

Speaker 3:

To Leo's point on why we do what we do and a little bit where we're different. I think if you kind of look more broadly at venture and kind of where venture's gone over the past 10 years, no matter how you feel about it is we're highly concentrated and that's not overly common for an early stage firm. And what I mean by highly concentrated is we have a very limited number of portfolios. So in any given portfolio right now, we have a very limited number of portfolios. So in any given portfolio right now, we have nine, maybe 10 portfolio companies that can make up, you know, anywhere from, you know, 11 to 10% of our entire fund. When you have that and again investing at seed a very, very risky asset class, no matter what you do, it's risky. We do our best to de-risk that, but no matter what, you know you're still sort of fighting the laws of physics when it comes to startups. And so by by being super concentrated, you know we have to be really, really deliberate, really, really focused, because it's not like a lot of other firms who who, to a certain extent, do a lot of diligence and do a lot of great work. They really let the math work for them, if you will in terms of a portfolio theory, they're saying, hey, if you will in terms of a portfolio theory, they're saying, hey, if we get a certain number, you know there's a good statistical chance that one is going to break out and kind of rise above the rest With how we're investing in already a risky asset class. When we're saying, hey, we're going to invest 10% of our fund into you at seed stage, you know one of the most risky asset classes there is.

Speaker 3:

You really have to make sure you get everyone's opinion. Everyone's aligned, everyone classes there is. You really have to make sure you get everyone's opinion. Everyone's aligned, everyone has a voice and we really kind of use our consensus sort of methodology to our benefit to make sure that we really feel, because we need each one to work out.

Speaker 3:

And I think, to a certain extent, if I was talking to founders out there and you were saying, hey, how do you pick a VC?

Speaker 3:

Because there's a lot of options out there, there's a lot of capital, a little data tri-plug, I guess is, you know, we're about as aligned as you can be as an investor is to a founder We've got so much of our own capital to work alongside your own. Nobody has more skin in the game than the founders, but I think, from an investor perspective, we put a lot of our own skin in the game and that really drives how we work with them, how we support them, how we continue to support them when should go sideways, as it will, as or as they run out of money, which they will, um, you know, I think that really drives that and it's it's really much more of a team mentality as opposed to more of like a a more mathematically driven portfolio, I think, which is where more broader venture goes, which works for them. I think they're having a lot of success. It's just. It's just a very different strategy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks, versus going narrow and deep. You know what that tracks with what I'm seeing, even on the sales side, where organizations are going instead of. You know, I mean, we still do this you make 500 cold calls and you see what sticks. But you know if you've got a hammer at some point you're going to hit a nail, right, but it's like how many?

Speaker 4:

times you're going to swing that thing. Bad visuals when are we going with?

Speaker 1:

that Bad visuals over the radio, okay, but at some point we had to stop and think. You know what? There are things that are hidden and going narrow allows us to do our research, to understand and align, just like you said, and it seems like when you're playing these traditionally probabilistic games where revenue is concerned, then it tracks with what we're even seeing across industries where the bet now is to just you know you're betting, but you're you're betting on a very limited sample size.

Speaker 4:

That you understand. So it seems like that's where data tribe is going. Do you think that that's where other VCs are going? Is that an overall industry trend or are you guys just trying to be different?

Speaker 2:

We have to keep the number relatively low because of how much extra resources we're providing each of the companies. Somebody look at that and say, geez, the math is telling you this job. I mean it's if you lose you can lose big and you can win big.

Speaker 3:

My history side comes out here. I think you know venture used to be more about the. It was it was a lot of risk on and it wasn't about mitigating a lot of risk, it was about embracing that. And we've moved, as more capital slowed into market, into more management of risk. You know they still take risky bets but they are also trying to manage it in real time, which is good and we all do that. We fully align ourselves and get in the boat with the investor. And you're right, it's super risky.

Speaker 3:

If you say, historically, like seed, the percentage of seed companies that make it to series A, just series A, which we're not even gonna say is the exit, is 30%. You'd have to check with, like Peter Walker and the Carter guys on like what the current stats are. But like, call it, 30% of companies get from seed to series A. You know the percentage that get to like series B and series C, which is where we're really talking about trying to get real fun multiples. It gets lower and lower.

Speaker 3:

And if you're going to say like, hey, only three of our companies you know statistically are going to make it to a series A in this model, you only need one to be a, or to say, a unicorn in this case, to make the fun. But yeah, it's a very, very different thing, where I think we're betting on ourselves, we're betting on our founders, and I think that resonates with a lot of founders too. On ourselves, we're betting on our founders, and I think that resonates with a lot of founders too. I mean, they want that, they don't want to be one of many, and I think a lot of founders also understand that, especially within cybersecurity, which I think is important to bring it back to cybersecurity, as a market moves differently than you know broad consumer stuff and some of the more broad AI stuff that we're seeing. It's not the same.

Speaker 1:

I mean, we can think of some of the obvious differences, but what have you seen that makes cybersecurity unique?

Speaker 2:

For cybersecurity. You're often selling into large enterprises, so you're a teeny company, a handful of people selling a product that is security oriented, like the enterprise is looking to buy this product to improve their security, they are going to need to trust your company a lot and this big enterprise is going to trust this little teeny company to help them secure them. That's a bit of a leap, and so one of the things that we work a lot with the companies is to bring kind of the branding of DataTribe and experience of DataTribe in cybersecurity as a strong backer to help improve the trust that a small company can have when they're selling to large enterprises. And that's an example of one challenge that cybersecurity startups may have that other startups may not have.

Speaker 3:

Totally agree, I think, even though we play in different ends of the field here. I think I saw an interview with Mark Andreessen recently where he said one of the goals with them and I actually fully agree with this and it makes a lot of sense for them. One of the goals, with sort of scaling Andreessen to where they're at, is to be able to extend that resources, those networks, the trust, the reputation to companies that probably don't haven't earned it yet. I think within cyber, though you know it's, it's very different. I mean it. It take that in 10X in terms of the trust required. So I think one of the things that, like, startup founders need to understand to not that overly speak for systems, right, but if you're a CISO and you're a, you know, ciso of a fortune 500 company, the consequences for lack of a better word, like fucking up are severe and you're going to say, hey, I'm going to take a bet on a five to 10 person startup and I like these guys, but if they fuck up they lose a customer, if they fuck up, I might lose my job and like. So that that level of trust, it needs to be understood, I think, by the startup, sometimes one of the big things with cybersecurity startups not just cybersecurity, I think any startup but we'll talk about the deeply tactical cyber guys is they're so excited to sell the thing they think is great that sometimes I think they have a hard time putting themselves in the shoes of the buyer, the CISO.

Speaker 3:

In this case, the CISO. It's a thankless job. There's a reason why CISO turnover rates are so high. You know they're managing boards, they're dealing with the you know, the IT, you know side and the developer side of the house, which, with this AI stuff, has gotten even crazier, you know, and they have to be right every time. And one screw up, you know, has real financial repercussions, reputational, and could lead to their job.

Speaker 3:

And I think it takes a long time to build that trust, to be able to really put yourself in each other's hands. It's tough and it makes cyber a little bit more unique than say like hey, I'm trying a new AI coding app and shoot, I don't like it and we're going to turn after a month. No big deal. You integrate into a security tech stack and it doesn't work. One you know, like that's frustrating. You got to pull it out and you got to integrate something new. Two, it probably means it didn't work, means that something bad happened, you had a cybersecurity incident, and that's just a very different, I think, ecosystem than the rest of venture capital.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it seems like those guys can't win. If they do their job well they you know then you cut your budget.

Speaker 4:

Hey, we haven't gotten a breach?

Speaker 1:

Why do we need cybersecurity? And then, if they don't do their jobs well, then why aren't you doing your job well? Where's the next guy? Yeah, I've never really put myself in the shoe of the CISO in that way, but I like the way that you summarized it there, rob. That makes total sense For all the CISOs out there. Thank you for what you do. We love you to.

Speaker 1:

In a way, you guys are taking a shot and you've got a. You know when you, when you're working with a new founder, you're taking a shot and they've got a win. And then you've got the CISO on the other side, who's taking a shot on the founder as well and saying that you know, if, if, if you know I'm going to borrow Rob's terminology If I fuck up, then guess what? Um, I lose my. So the founder is there in the middle of all of this where he's like man, I am in between a rock and a hard place, and you guys are coming along and saying it's okay, you don't have credibility, I have credibility, and you lend that credibility to the CISO as well. So how has that gone Like? When you engage a CISO, how do you instill confidence in them? How do you build that trust with them and pass it on to these companies that you're working with, these startups.

Speaker 3:

I think you buy them a drink first.

Speaker 4:

CISOs love to drink. Shout out to Alan Alford Loves a good whiskey. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

We'll let Leo tackle this one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, it's about us building relationships with CISOs in the first place, and so we have a whole CISO network that we cultivate and really the first step is working with those CISOs. They're interested, even if they don't end up being a customer, they're very interested to see what are the new. You know new problems and new types of solutions that you know early stage startups are working on, and so there's a lot of value to the CISOs to be able to see the new trends that are going on. And then there's a lot of value, of course, for the startups, even if a given CISO doesn't become a customer just to get feedback.

Speaker 2:

Well, this is what I think about your idea. And so through that process of kind of meeting the companies, kind of just being able to learn in a low pressure not really even a sales situation, just learning from the companies gives them comfort, and then it's kind of a matchmaking situation. So if, if a CISO has a particularly interesting, unique issue that matches up with the companies and hopefully we're investing in startups that are working on new, a little bit over the horizon, not well-solved problems that's the type of problem they should be working on then if there's a good match they'll try it out it starts well before you ever have a startup that you want to introduce them to right, I think, uniquely cyber CISOs you've got to help them collaborate and be a part of a community and share knowledge.

Speaker 3:

It's one of those things that's, again, uniquely cyber like while everyone's competing, like everybody is, you know, sharing information and needs to share to be successful.

Speaker 3:

And so it's a lot about just building community without any sort of expectation, and not about having a transaction-oriented mindset and saying, hey, this is just, we think this is a good group of people that can help each other, get through the day-to-day, identify the issues and talk about it. And sure, if at some point we are VCs, at some point, like, we have a startup that we think can help them. But I think it's a subtle mindset shift to be able to say, hey, this is, we want you to be a part of our community, not necessarily because we want to sell you, but because you know we're all in this together. And again, there's an aspect of cybersecurity that's unique is that a lot of people and I'd love to, we can touch on this a little bit in terms of like kind of the founders that we've historically targeted A lot of cybersecurity practitioners are really drawn to the mission. You know there's a real mission to cybersecurity to like help people to protect people.

Speaker 1:

I want to get into some of the horror stories. I've just been chomping at the bit. I want to know what has gone wrong. Can you remember a time when you know something just did not go right and it impacted revenue specifically? You know, when you just look back and you're like we're not going to do that again.

Speaker 2:

In terms of types of failures? You have no idea. I mean, I can talk from my own experience. Maybe I'll call myself out in terms of failures in past companies. I spent 25 plus years before DataTribe building software companies, and between the first and second one, my business partner and I were working on an idea. We had built out an MVP, we had some initial strategic partners and as we were doing research, we ran across a patent. Someone held a patent that the more we studied it, we were like this patent adds a huge amount of risk. Like we are overlapping with this patent in a way that we don't know how we were going to build the product in a way that we're not going to be in conflict with the patent. We had to completely change directions Wild stuff like that. Like that's just one example of a thousand of different things that can come out of nowhere.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's just chaos theory.

Speaker 2:

I mean.

Speaker 1:

Mercury could be in retrograde or you know, like you never know, somebody could have walked under a ladder at that point or saw you know a black cat and there's no rhyme or reason to it. Like it's just a freak accident. So like probability definitely has a lot to do to it. Like it's just a freak accident, so like probability definitely has a lot to do with it.

Speaker 3:

That's the hardest part of the job, right, like and Leo's got war stories from like in the trenches. And, yeah, the hardest thing is is is having those conversations with the founders, being like this isn't working, your idea isn't working, you're maybe not the right fit as the CEO and we need to make a change. And we've had issues in the past. It's, it's we've we've missed on the founder, which is normal. You know, people are complicated and sometimes you just don't even know who they are until, like, you've actually made the investment. And then they change. And then our ability to like, say like hey, we think there's an issue, and to say always, like, fight the year. To say like we'll give them one more quarter, give them one more quarter.

Speaker 3:

Um, usually that doesn't end well.

Speaker 3:

You know, someone says like when you have, when you have your question, you have your answer.

Speaker 3:

I think that's true, but that's hard, and I think the only way to kind of manage that, though on the people side, is you've got to be really open, you've got to be really transparent, you have to have really clear, you know goals that everyone is sort of skating to and then, at the end of the day, like part of our job. As much as we talk about being in line with our founders which we are we want them to succeed because we have alignment there. You know, we also have our own investors and I think the important thing is, sometimes you have to make the right decision for the company, which isn't always the right decision for the founder, and, like those are, those are easily the hardest conversations and decisions to make, because nobody has more, more invested than those founders and to tell them, hey, this isn't going to work out, but I think, if, again, if I think, if you've been consistent and genuine over the life of the relationship, they might hate it but they'll get it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, they'll respect it at least, and I think if you can come out the end of the side with respect if not love and adoration, then OK then that's not a bad place to be.

Speaker 1:

Because it sucks for everybody. You're sharing the wins and you're sharing the losses.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Now, finally, you guys decided to do your picking in DC, where there's a lot of attention paid to Silicon Valley and the West Coast. Why DC?

Speaker 2:

The short of it. If you look at DC from a cybersecurity viewpoint, dc is number one in the world in terms of number of cybersecurity professionals. It blows away even the next city in terms of amount of cybersecurity professionals. The reason is, historically, if you look at innovation in cybersecurity, cyber as like kind of a tech sector or a segment of tech is very unusual. Normally a lot of innovation comes from startups, big technology companies, universities. In cybersecurity, historically, the big innovator was the government, particularly intelligence community, and so that drove the pattern of Washington DC having a lot of cybersecurity talent and also has really interesting teams.

Speaker 2:

We have close relationships with the intelligence community, national lab researchers and often we're seeing something very interesting, often on the offensive side of security. So they're kind of working in an intelligence community hacking on behalf of the US government and they see a pattern and a trend of something they may be doing or something their adversaries are doing and they're like oh, we need to build something to protect the world from this. Getting back to Rob's point, oftentimes cybersecurity startup founders are very mission driven. That is an example. They see something wow, like this is not good for the world. I need to build something to protect the world from this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, mission and people, and I think Theo said it, offense to defense, no-transcript matter experts out and we understood that, while they're the technical experts, what they don't understand is, you know, go-to-market sales. You know all of the stuff, the other stuff that goes with a startup. And I would say we have a lot to offer to founders that are not, you know, in the DC area. I think we're uniquely set up to support any super technical founder, first-time founders, kids coming out of college but the resources and networks at this point where you know, I think we're able to help any startup anywhere. But the origin story was mission driven Where's the highest, best use of talent and where are people working on the hardest problems? And for most cases that was that was DC.

Speaker 1:

Sounds like a match made in heaven. Rob Leo, it was a pleasure talking to you guys and I understand that you have an event coming up. Do you want to give us just like a 30 second pitch on your event? And so if anybody's listening to this and they want to attend, where can they go and what is it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So it's Cyber Innovation Day. It's on November 4th. Historically, we've run a pitch competition that we call the Data Tribe Challenge. This is going to be our eighth year for the Data Tribe Challenge. This is going to be our eighth year for the Data Tribe Challenge and we've expanded that Data Tribe Challenge into this whole day event. That is Cyber Innovation Day In the afternoon. Kind of the main attraction in the afternoon will be the Data Tribe Challenge pitch competition. In the morning there's going to be panels and a keynote speaker and even some university research talks on interesting university research, but I think the audience too right.

Speaker 3:

I think you know we're going to have a lot of VCs there, a lot of cybersecurity VCs. So if you're a startup and you're just looking to network, we're going to have a lot of CISOs. We're going to have a lot of partners. If you're CISOs or you're just a cyber geek and you want to see what's next to Leo's point, we have a lot of the universities really trying to convene. As much of the cybersecurity community that's focused on early stage and sort of that intersection between deep tech over the horizon to you know, actually like sort of mission capable technologies. That's kind of where we focus. It's kind of our sweet spot and so, like Leo said, it's all day in downtown DC and I hope to see you guys there.

Speaker 1:

All right, can I come?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely, we'll see how many views the podcast gets.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll bring a microphone and a camera and we'll see. All right, leo and Rob, if people want to find you, how can they find you?

Speaker 2:

Probably easiest. Either a website or LinkedIn is the easiest way to find me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, same same, and again. If you're out there is the easiest way to find me? Yeah, same same, and again. If you're out there, we want to meet you. If you're working on crazy shit, we want to meet you. If you're by yourself, we want to meet you. If you're with a team, we want to meet you. We want to find a way to support you and kind of build in the next technologies.

Speaker 1:

All right, maybe I'll have some founders to fling over the to meet you guys, and if you'd like to learn more about cybernomics, you can find us anywhere that you listen to your podcasts. And if you want to learn more about Bruning Media, visit bruningcom, check out what we do and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks for listening to this episode of Cybernomics.