Cybernomics: The Economics of Cyber Security

The Hiring Process Is Broken And We Have To Fix It

• Bruyning Media

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0:00 | 33:21

Ten months of job hunting can mess with your identity, even when you know you’re good at what you do. We sit down with Jennifer “Jen” T. Baca, a cybersecurity risk leader and single mom, to talk honestly about what it feels like to be qualified, visible, and still stuck in the silence of today’s hiring market. We get into the mental weight of layoffs, the endless loop of applications, and the weird reality that finding a job now demands its own set of skills: LinkedIn strategy, resume tactics, interviewing stamina, and relentless networking.  

Jen also shares the silver linings she didn’t expect: conference exposure, community leadership, and the kind of communication and empathy that can turn a solid cybersecurity manager into a truly effective security leader. We talk imposter syndrome, culture fit, and why “overqualified” is often just a polite way of saying “not our person.” If you’re in governance, risk, and compliance (GRC) or cybersecurity leadership, you’ll recognize the tension between wanting meaningful work and needing stability now.  

Then we shift into the work itself: real-world healthcare cybersecurity risks, the business cost of phishing and account compromise, and how to translate security risk into board-level language tied to revenue, trust, and HIPAA. We also dig into women in cybersecurity, minority experiences in male-dominated rooms, and why soft skills and emotional intelligence are not optional in modern security teams.  

If you’ve ever been ghosted after a great interview, this one will hit. Subscribe to Cybernomics, share this with someone in the job hunt, and leave a review if you want more conversations that tell the truth and push the industry to do better.

Josh's LinkedIn

Jen Or Jennifer

SPEAKER_00

Do you go by Jen or Jennifer?

SPEAKER_01

Jennifer for formalities, but if we're friends, you can call me Jen.

SPEAKER_00

Are we friends yet? I've known you for what? Yeah. Uh 30 minutes, if even that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, we could do Jen.

Job Search Despair In Cyber

SPEAKER_00

Alright. Nobody hit her up on LinkedIn talking about, hey Jen. Look, I know that's where y'all go, but not until you know me. Yeah, don't do it. Don't do it. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to us today. Uh, myself and audience. And um, what we're talking about today, I guess, is something that's near and dear to most people. And I appreciate you sharing your story because you know it's very difficult to sort of share that when you're going through it. Yeah. I've been through it. A lot of others, especially in the cybersecurity market, have gone through it where we're looking for a job, we're in between jobs, we're qualified, we're smart, we know what we're doing, and we have a lot to offer, but it just seems like you're shouting into the void and nothing is coming back.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

A good chunk of us have had this experience, and everybody is a little bit different, but I feel like the overwhelming feeling is like a loss of hope. Where are you now? What is your your your attitude towards the job market?

Single Motherhood And Career Pressure

SPEAKER_01

Gosh, I I think you caught me in probably one of my lows. And so I've been in it for 10 months now. And I think just the weight of I've got two young kiddos. I have a boy in fifth grade and then another little boy in kindergarten. And I'm also a single mom. My husband passed uh five years ago this year. So the weight of that alone, um, that personal struggle and then having this job search on top of it is just beyond me. I can't even fathom what's happening. And I feel like this time around, with you know, all the layoffs and everything happening, I went about it a different way. It's just a new world. And so um, between AI and networking, I mean, I've been to every conference under the sun in the last 10, 10 months. And um I've joined a nonprofit uh called Cybersity as a board member. And so I run their operations as their director. And we're just, you see us everywhere, and I'm showing my face, and it it feels like it's not working. And so the void that you're talking about, I I can so relate.

SPEAKER_00

What were you doing at your last job?

SPEAKER_01

So at my last job, I was at CCRM. It's a fertility treatment center based out of Lone Tree, Colorado. And I was building out their cybersecurity program. I have a background in risk management. Um, I've been in that sector for over 10 years, and I moved into cybersecurity about four years ago. And so this really opened up my eyes for something that was more challenging. It's growing, it's booming. Um, and then we've got the AI stuff that plays into it. So that's new and fun and scary. Um, but like I said, it's just a different world.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Have you gotten to that point where you're just kind of like, you know what, maybe I won't get my perfect gig. I'll take something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Or are you still looking for that? Are you sticking to your guns?

SPEAKER_01

I am I'm a little bit half in, half out. I am not above going to Target and being, you know, inventory, cashier, and just, you know, saving my peace and and talking to people while they shop. Um, but I do, I do want to lead. I do want to create something. I do want to execute and see something to fruition and and call it mine or my idea and and collaborate. Like I really do miss that human connection and a project where you work together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's tough. I mean, you kind of start to question am I even built for this thing? Yeah. But it almost seems like it's not fair because you didn't go to school to learn how to find a job. You know, but finding a job today is a full-time job. Do you feel that way?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you have to have the right skill set to find that job. Like, right? Like how to write a resume, how to push out your LinkedIn, how to create your profile, how to interview, like all these things. And I don't think we touch on that enough. And it's great that there's career coaching out there, but what about these high school kids or college graduates? Like, what are they coming into?

SPEAKER_00

Well, let's touch on it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What do you think that this job search has done for you? What are you better at now than you were before you started looking?

Conferences Networking And Imposter Syndrome

SPEAKER_01

I actually kind of love that because it's been so dark. But um, I think I said that my strategy has been different. I've been to like all these different conferences. And I think I only had time to go to maybe one a year, right? When I was working. And so now that I have exposure to all these, all these different ones that touch on, you know, it's AI is a theme, community is the theme. And I love that you can kind of pick and choose which ones resonate with you. And then you're getting familiar with the people, you're seeing kind of the same faces. And that's really fun because you don't get to see them on an everyday basis or regularly for that matter. And I've gotten to travel. So I went to RSA this year for the first time in San Francisco, and that was super fun. And then I got to go to DC for the OES conference, and I got to speak at, you know, women in cybersecurity and do a panel and talk about imposter syndrome. So there's been a lot of exposure and a lot of the silver lining there. And I've learned how to pivot and really network my butt off and learning those skills and just how to communicate and then get over that imposter syndrome because it so easily kicks in about five times a day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now that you're gaining all these interpersonal skills, all these social skills, and you're in front of people and talking to people, what do you think is going to be like going into a role that is largely, I don't want to say that it's largely technical because your role as a risk leader is more about the business. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, but do you feel like you'll lose some of some of that uh, you know, social acumen if you land a cybersecurity risk leadership job? Or are you do you think that you're just gonna be able to apply that and all of your new skills to your new role?

SPEAKER_01

I think the latter. I think what's gonna happen is that it's gonna make me a better leader. It's gonna make me more empathetic, it's gonna make me really push for my people. And I feel like when you're building the relationships and you have that trust with one another, you're gonna want to do more for each other. And so I think this is really what's setting me up, hopefully, in the future.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That persistence, that never giving up, uh, it's a real skill and it's pretty rare. I hope this doesn't come off as insensitive because nobody likes to be in this place. You've got two kids, like you said, that you're that you're worried about and you've got a whole life. Um, you need money, you need an income. We we all do. But how about this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

For being Mr. Optimist, and people tell me I'm just like give it to me. I'm just annoyingly optimistic.

SPEAKER_01

I need a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that one of the one of the reasons we work is to learn and put back into ourselves. It's to gain these skills and to, you know, it that's what life is about, I think. At least for me, it's how do I develop myself? How do I pour into myself? Yes. And so whether I'm doing that for money or not, it's it's worth doing, right? So I feel like there's no time lost. I feel like you're gonna land that job and you're gonna look back on this and you're gonna be like, wow, that was my training ground, and now I'm better for it. Yeah. No, yeah. Does that make you feel a little bit better? Or are you like, Josh, shut up?

SPEAKER_01

Like I I'm I'm a firm believer in Jesus Christ. And so I just have so many testimonies that you can look back and be like, wow, that was a really hard time. I could not see the light at the end. And I do feel that now, and I feel like I'm in it. Um, but I also think that the little glimmers, like, thank you for this. This is great. This conversation is really enlightening and eye-opening for me in these moments, these last few days. So things like that that kind of just pop up unexpectedly is really hopeful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You can see the little glimmers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I was trying to tell you when we were talking offline. Like, I think there's a weird voodoo science behind this thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Letting Go And Trusting Timing

SPEAKER_00

Because it's all about timing. God's timing, it's about everything just being aligned. Right. And I remember when I was doing my job search in New York City for over a year and out maybe 200 applications, interviewed with 20, 30 companies, and moved to Savannah. Nothing was nothing, nothing was working. And I was just kind of like, is like, is it that the robots have taken over? And that's why my stuff's just not getting through. I was like, is it me? Is it them? But then when the floodgates opened, the floodgates really opened, and I was like saying no to jobs. Right, right. I was like, how how did that happen? It had to have been some sort of nebulous, you know, I don't know, like Wizard of Oz behind the curtain thing working on my behalf.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But not to be too voodoo magic about it, but I feel like quicker than you. Yes. I feel I I felt like putting that intention out. And as soon as I let go, yeah, and I stopped looking for a job and I started focusing on myself and how do I how do I deliver value? What can I do to make the world a better place? Just my world.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I felt like putting that intention out somehow made it come back to me rather than trying to hunt so hard.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I was running myself into the ground. Do you feel like sometimes that there's some magic about this thing?

SPEAKER_01

Or there's Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think definitely. I mean, I think the last couple jobs that I've gotten were because I knew people from like a past life. And then it just fell into my lap, right? Not to say that you're not supposed to work hard and get after it and all these other things, but what is for you cannot miss you. Like there's just no way. And so the timing of things, as you mentioned, it's not on our time and it is bigger than us, and we cannot do it alone. Like, there's a reason why when you're networking and you're you connect with certain people over others, or you know, like somebody really gets you and and can advocate for you. I think those don't happen by coincidence. Yeah.

Career Path From Legal To Cyber

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, do you think that there's value in reaching back out to people who've helped you over the years, or have you already exhausted all of those options?

SPEAKER_01

No. So I used to be um a paralegal for 10 years prior to being in risk management. I thought I wanted to be an attorney. So my bachelor's is in political science. And when I made the move from legal to tech, I worked at Kaiser for six, seven years. And I started in the business management office within TRO, Technology Risk Office, and was just doing, you know, event planning, um, team meetings, like all hands, budgeting, things of that nature, and then kind of started learning the terminology and then moved into like risk assessments and everything. And it's so crazy because the people that I worked with and my former colleagues ended up being who I work with today. For example, Geneva is one of the board members and co-founders of Cybersity Denver. And then also I have a really great mentor, and he was my former boss and CIO of at CCRM. He and I worked together on a project at Kaiser, and that was over 10 years ago. So they have been relationships that I held on to without even intentionally holding on to them.

Overqualified Or Just Wrong Fit

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Do you think you're overqualified?

SPEAKER_01

No, I don't think you could ever be overqualified.

SPEAKER_00

Well, here's why I ask that, because I hear this a lot, especially in cyber. I know so many people who are in that position. Like I know people who were CEOs, CIOs, yeah, you know, C-suite up and down, have been in cyber for 30 years.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Cannot find a job. Cannot find a job. And I wonder if it's it's just like too smart.

SPEAKER_01

I just don't think that's possible. I think there's so much knowledge out there, and you can't know everything. And then as soon as you know something, it's different. It's not, it's not to be known anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't know that that exists. So there's gotta be a different reason.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What is it? What is what do you think? Why do you think it's so hard to do that? I think they just like that word. What? Overqualified. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean like the nice way to say like you're not it for us, but like we're sorry.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I told myself to keep myself going. Yeah. I was like, Josh, it's not that you're dumb and you can't do your job. You're too smart. Right. You know, you're too good for them. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Like they're just not your people, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So you think it's fit?

SPEAKER_01

It's gotta be. I think, I think ultimately, and just because of who I am, it's it's more culture, it's more of personality, it's more soft skills.

SPEAKER_00

Again, overqualified because I'm sitting here talking to someone who seems very personable, extremely smart, and knows what she's doing and talking about and is confident. And I feel like you would be an asset on any leadership team. I've only known you for like less than an hour, and I've perused your LinkedIn, and I can't, for the life of me, wonder why someone like you cannot find a role in today's job market. That makes no sense to me. I think something's broken.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I feel like I'm broken.

Protecting End Users From Scams

SPEAKER_00

Well, it has broken you. It is broken and it has broken you. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to anyone who's trying to get into cybersecurity today? Would you say, hey man, go do something else? No. Would you do it all over again?

SPEAKER_01

It's hard to say that. And not because I'm I can't be real, but because I feel like it's such a booming industry and that we need it, right? My passion is kind of along the lines of we can be as technical as we want and have the right configurations and do all these things to protect our environments. But at the end of the day, it's like your grandma who just like didn't know she was being scammed, or your elderly parents who you don't have a safe word with, you know, like we think you're calling them from jail or that you need money or whatever. Um, it's usually the end user who just doesn't know any better. And I think it's up to us to educate them and really pull them along with us to understand the severity of what's happening out in the world. People are just greedy and and can be bad.

Healthcare Risks And Real Costs

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That could be that's a whole podcast. Maybe you have to come back and just it really is. Let's talk risk, right? Let's get into shop and get into the nuts and bolts. Yeah. When you were in healthcare, what was the number one business risk that you saw in your role?

SPEAKER_01

I hate to sound repetitive, but it was like the nurses or the doctors leaving their screens unlocked and like they're going from patient to patient. They're trying to get through, they're trying to help everyone. So that patient care aspect of it, you would always see it on the end. And then internally, just not knowing business acumen, like accessing personal email from, you know, an organization device. So it's it's little things like that as far as risk goes, is what I've seen the most.

SPEAKER_00

And what do you think that was costing the business?

SPEAKER_01

Oh gosh, huge. There was one of those.

SPEAKER_00

Sorry, let me let me rephrase.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What was that costing the business? And how do you think of cost?

SPEAKER_01

I mean cost monetarily, right? Okay. So, like we're talking, okay, so we had this incident where luckily we were in a leadership meeting and I received this email. And had I not known that person personally, like I worked with them directly, I wouldn't have thought anything of it. But it was like one of those invoices that came up, like, hey, you need to pay this, like it's past due. It's so much money. Um, like you need to take care of it, ASAP, like the urgency behind it. And I was like, This, this person isn't even in this department. That doesn't seem right. And so I was able to ping her and ask her, like, hey, did you send this? It went out to a handful of people within the org. And right away, it's like we had to shut down her email account, get her new laptop. We had to triage it, start investigating, like, where did this come from? How did they get into her account, right? All these things. So all that time away, just trying to investigate and then take away from like actual day-to-day, it's just huge. That's just a lot of time and energy for something that was somewhat simple.

Translating Security Risk To Boards

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the one of the um the jobs of a business leader is to balance risk and also cutting costs, right? How did you do that? When when when the board says to you, you need to cut the budget by 20%, but you need to make sure that risk doesn't go up. As a matter of fact, we want you to lower risk.

SPEAKER_01

We want you to do less. Um no, I think what that really comes down to is the translation. I think it really comes to understanding each other's language and being able to present it in a way that makes sense to the board. Like what is their focus? How can you tie that in so that they're a little bit more concerned about it and not taking away from you fully? Instead of 20%, can it be 10%? You know, and kind of maybe negotiating back a little bit. I mean, we've had some instances where we've had to go that route and ensure that we had the right tools in place, the right processes, the right people. And so getting them to understand that from the inside and not just like an outsider perspective, I think is really important. So translation is huge.

SPEAKER_00

And how did you tell that story?

SPEAKER_01

We had to really understand what their focus was. Like, you know, I think at the end of the day, it's like making more money, getting more patients. Like, how do we do that? And then so, okay, your patients are your biggest asset. And so now how do we tie security into that or risk into that? And then being able to understand we want to protect the patients. Do you want to protect the patients? Yes. And we do we want a HIPAA violation? No. So going about it that way and then presenting like this is what we need. This is this is the proposal that we've come up with. These are the cutbacks that maybe we could do, but these are the must-haves.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because you don't want to go to the board and be like, hey, no, we can't do that. You're getting acquired in in half a second.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So telling that story is I've always seen business leaders like struggle to just sometimes it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You don't want to miss the mark, but you want to make sure that they're understanding. And I don't think it hurts to go out for a cup of coffee or a brunch.

SPEAKER_00

Ah, I see. Those are the tips and tricks of the training that I want to do. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Let's take a walk. Like, you need a latte.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. How much of that is like making friends in politics?

SPEAKER_01

Well, you have to. Like, there's an absolute need for that.

Women In Cyber And Male Allyship

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, why are you? Okay. Can I ask you a little bit of an uncomfortable question?

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

How much do you think being a woman plays into the job hunt?

SPEAKER_01

It's so funny you touch on that because when you sent me the questions prior to, I was kind of going through. And one of my points is like, I'm minority, I'm woman. And most of the rooms that I'm in is the exact opposite of me. And so I feel like I have to try a little bit harder and be a little bit more assertive or just be more direct and more clear in what I'm trying to say or trying to deliver, just so that it punches the right way so that I can be taken seriously. And no, this is not just an opinion, right? You want to make it more valuable than that. Just like, oh, this is what I think. But you have to really bring the facts and have a voice, really. And they don't almost have to agree with you. That's not the point. The point is that it's supposed to be collaborative and that everyone should be heard.

SPEAKER_00

I'm scared of the women I work with. Good for you. I'm scared of women in general. I let my wife do all the she tells me what to do. I'll just do it.

SPEAKER_01

Just do what she says.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've learned that my life goes a lot better and a lot more smoothly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That way. But the women that I work with, I mean, they are they're they're powerhouses. And maybe because I grew up with a lot, I grew up in the Caribbean. I'm Guyanese.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah. And my mom, I I spent a lot of time with my mom, um, with my aunts, my sister, and they're all strong women.

SPEAKER_01

I mean Yeah, very fierce.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and the men were just kind of like, they're like, hey, kid, don't argue. Like don't argue. Keep your mouth shut. Just do what they what they tell you to do. Because 99% of the time they turn out to be right.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the thing, right? I think as women, we carry so much that we're in this like executive role at home. And beyond that, right? I'm sure it's not in every household. And and I don't want to genderize, but like, you know, what's for dinner? Like, what do we need from the grocery store? Like when you're out of stock or on something, like what's the inventory? Laundry needs to be done. But like somehow all these five different things that need to be managed within the household get done within a two to three hour window. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_00

My mind.

SPEAKER_01

Like we we just know. We know that things are gonna keep rolling in, fires are gonna keep coming. And so we've just got to be on it. And I just I think that comes from such an internal, maybe maternal, right? Where you got the kids, you got the job. You we're just we're we're different, we're different breeds these days.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yes. I would say so. I'm a caveman.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I don't, I don't know where anything is. Keep it simple. Yeah, yeah. My wife would go, Hey, you need um, we need more forks. I'm like, we've got two forks. It's two of us. Why do we need more forks?

SPEAKER_01

She's like, Well, there's this dinner party, and if you think about it, like these many people are coming, and then there's gonna be some in the dishwasher.

SPEAKER_00

Like, have you been talking to my wife? Don't sell me.

SPEAKER_01

We just think of all the different scenarios, and so that's why we make such great leaders. I think so. Anything can happen and you'll be on it. You'll be present.

SPEAKER_00

I saw some research. I'm not really sure if it's a hundred percent. So somebody got there and vet it for me, but it says that the female brain, and I'm gonna piss a lot of people off probably, and I don't care because I live in a world of sanity, okay? So it's the female brain makes more connections. Whereas men, you know, we're programmed to just like look at the one thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But women are killing it in sales today. And I think that's partly why. Yeah. You're able to enter a situation and you're socially aware. You're emotionally aware.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know what's going on all the time. I'm I don't have a clue what's happening in here.

SPEAKER_01

All the time. Yeah. Like I could tell you what my five neighbors are doing right now and what they need help with.

SPEAKER_00

I can tell you the one neighbor, his name is Junior, he's sitting on the stoop. I don't know about anybody else because I'm still thinking about talking to one during lunch.

SPEAKER_01

We see it all. And and we have that intuition too of like, okay, something's about to hit the fan, like something feels off, something's going on here. It's not registering quite yet.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah. For that reason, honestly, it's gonna sound bad, but I would hire more women because number one, y'all are killing it in the universities. You're outgraduating men. Um, and I think if you're if if you're a smart business leader, you're gonna hire uh yes, it is maybe it is discriminatory, but like in a good way.

SPEAKER_01

I would think so. I would think so. I we all want the hire women, so hire who is best fit, right? And I I think the no, I might piss some people off, but the emotionalness of it, I think that's great. You need an empathetic leader. We don't have that these days.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

We are missing out on that, on the humanness of of the humans. Like, where's the representation for humans?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's the disconnect in cybersecurity is that we don't have enough women in cyber.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, women in cyber, I know that's a wonderful organization. Lots of people come out, but I don't see any material movement. Um, I still see women in cyber like going above and beyond and trying harder than I see a lot of men trying. And yeah, I don't know, it's weird to me.

SPEAKER_01

The newest approach that I've seen, um, especially at this last conference, was the male allyship. And that's starting to become a thing. So hopefully that kind of takes off and blows up a little bit more. And I think that's just such an inspiring movement to help bring the needle a little bit more balanced.

SPEAKER_00

Do you feel like men are afraid to work with women because they're scared of their wives? These are the kinds of things that I think about. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_01

We should not be working out of fear, though. Like, you know, it's it's it's even, it's balanced. We need men and we need women, and we need them together. It can't be, it can't be either or.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. We need to learn how to work together. I think men have made the world very weird.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like I know, I know a lot of people who are like, I'm never gonna be in a room alone with another woman. I'm like, what if that woman is your CFO and y'all gotta talk business?

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So now you're never gonna hire a woman because you're afraid that your wife is gonna think weird.

SPEAKER_01

You've got to overcome the fear.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, overcome the fear. Do better, be better. Yeah, you know, it that also comes with the mandate for men to behave themselves.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_01

So we've seen it all. We've seen it all.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. All right. Is there anything else that I missed, Jen, that you that you want people to know before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so. I'm kind of just browsing over some of our questions and your questions are out the window at this time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Fixing Hiring With Decency

SPEAKER_01

I'm just like, is there anything that I like really wanted to get out there? Um, no, I think just I think for me right now in this season of mine, it's just it's the job market. And I know I have like a lot of self-doubt and I need to work through some of my own affirmations, but just for the other people out there, um we can't give up. And if one of us feels like giving up, I think it's up to the rest of us to lift that person up and stop posting jobs, just hire your friends, hire people within your network. And that's just there's too many scammers out there, too many fakes. And hire soft skills.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, can you tell me a little bit more about that? It seems like that that's a a pressure point.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Which part? The soft skills part or the um the other one?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Whatever part I said, and you did this thing with your hair, which I know is the universal language for like I something is obsessing, upsetting me right now, and I'm flustered and I don't care for it.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think what it is is like the uplifting or the hiring process is very, very broken. And I'm such a process break identifier. And so that's huge. You are on the other end of it and you're giving somebody time as an interviewer. If they're not, if your interviewee is not chosen, just let them know. It's not that big a deal. And maybe offer some feedback because we're all just kind of lost out here. Um and I think just with the job postings, like you don't have to list everything. Like, is that is that a mandate these days where even if you have an internal candidate or whatever it is, like what's with all the fake stuff and the scammers? You know? Like, why is only half the stuff that you're doing getting through?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it seems like the playing field is not fair.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of noise.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of noise. It's really hard to filter. And I can understand that from the recruiter side and the hiring manager side, but then that's when I say like, go through your people. Like, you obviously have a community, you have a network, so use them. Use them to find your people and and not through, you know, the screens and the platforms and the job boards.

SPEAKER_00

Well said.

SPEAKER_01

I think we know a lot of people who are looking right now. So if we could just make those connections, that would be great.

SPEAKER_00

If you're an employer and you're listening to this or a recruiter, for the life of just please, like just have some decency and get back to people. Like just let them know that they haven't gotten the job. Like, because at the end of the day, all like you get your hopes up, you think you got the job. You're like, I don't see any reason why I didn't get that job.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then you hear nothing for three weeks. Yes, you know, why six weeks, and you're like, should I keep looking?

SPEAKER_01

I was so excited. I thought we had a good thing going, the vibes were there. Like you checked up on my LinkedIn days later, like that's a good sign. And then where did you vanish to? Yeah, it's like a date that went really well, and then we're I do feel like I'm I'm dating again to find the right employer.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man, that's a whole other episode.

SPEAKER_01

Imagine that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

She whiz. Yeah, no, I'm crazy out there. That's the other thing. Dating, nuts. I don't want to be dating today. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I feel bad for this next generation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, can we make a pact? Can we say that when it's our turn to hire, yeah, that we will put in place all the things that we think should be there, including just having the common agency to reach back out to people and let them know.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Yes. And that's the empath in me. Yeah. The humanitarian in me.

A Pact To Be Better Leaders

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. Love it. Jen, it was such a pleasure getting to know you and talking to you too. Where can people find you if they want to find you and give you a job?

SPEAKER_01

I want to be found. You guys can find me on LinkedIn, Jennifer T. Baca, or find me through Josh. We're friends now.

Where To Find Jen

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And you're a friend of cybernomics, and I'm gonna post this everywhere. We're gonna have um video clips, and so thank you for talking to us today.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

And I hope something good comes out of it. So thank you for listening to this episode of Cybernomics. I'm gonna stop there.