Cybernomics Radio!
This is Cybernomics Radio, where we pick the brains of today's leaders to learn how their decisions are reshaping business and tech.
Through in-depth conversations with founders, executives, cybersecurity leaders, economists, researchers, and innovators, Cybernomics examines what happens when intelligent systems begin influencing how companies operate, how economies function, and how humans make decisions.
From AI deployment and automation to cyber warfare, digital power, labor disruption, governance, and the psychology of technological change, each episode cuts through the hype to uncover the real economic and human impact of emerging technology.
Cybernomics isn’t just about where technology is going, it’s about who wins, who adapts, and what the future costs.
Cybernomics Radio!
Dr. Zero Trust Talks AI Threats, Fraud Detection, AI Entrepreneurship
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Fraud doesn’t hide because it’s clever. It hides because our models keep looking for “normal” instead of interrogating “wrong.” That’s where this conversation with Dr. Chase Cunningham (known to many as “Dr. Zero Trust”) gets practical fast. We talk about his recent patent work using deterministic math to surface fraud inside huge systems, and why the usual data science playbook of finding enough “good” data to train on can be a trap when the real signal is buried in what shouldn’t be happening at all.
From there, we zoom out to the AI toolchain most teams are using today. LLMs like Claude and ChatGPT can be powerful, but they’re often optimized to produce the next best-looking answer, not the most adversarial truth. We dig into how to “turn the system on its head” with better prompting, correlation thinking, and agentic AI swarms that behave like a room full of specialists attacking one problem from different angles. If you’re wondering what the next step is beyond using AI for emails, this is the blueprint: orchestration, role clarity, and tight feedback loops.
Then we hit the elephant in the room: AI security. Shadow AI, sensitive data leakage, and agents that can accidentally expose HR documents or internal secrets all come back to fundamentals like identity and access management, least privilege, micro-segmentation, and non-human identities. Zero trust principles still apply, but the speed and scale of agentic systems make every gap matter more. We close with what keeps Chase up at night, including deepfakes and the erosion of shared reality, plus where to follow for more.
Subscribe, share this with a teammate who’s rolling out AI, and leave a review if it helps. What’s the one AI use case you want, but you’re not deploying yet because security feels messy?
Patents And The Fraud Challenge
SPEAKER_00So obviously I want to focus on AI and kind of you know dig into your world and what you're doing, what you're working on. What have you been up to? I try to keep track on LinkedIn, but it just seems like you're a Swiss Army knife fan.
SPEAKER_01My wife would say the worst thing in the world is for me not to be overworked. Um, because I just I perform better when I'm like constantly uh foot to the floor. As I'm getting older, I'm kind of learning to like at least take a step back when I do get a little bit overworked. But um yeah, I mean right now big time stuff I'm working on is uh I I filed four patents recently on um using deterministic math for finding fraud inside of systems. And the way that that kind of is come out is I was asked by the um task force that's going on inside the federal government to help them find fraud inside of uh internal networks and systems. And turns out that the math that they were using is pretty janky and old and crappy. Um shocker. I know the US government's you know, whatever. Well, but the approach that I put together was much more interesting. So um that's uh that's been the big thing. And then I'm working on a couple of books right now as well, trying to get those done before the end of the year.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, uh congrats on the patent. Thank you. First and foremost, that's a huge achievement. And um, you know, I that that opens a whole can of worms, and I will go down the weeds if you want.
Stop Training Models On “Good”
SPEAKER_00How does AI play into that? Fraud detection is huge, and especially being able to uh be flexible, right? I was working with a credit union the other day, fraud, they they were just losing money hand over fist due to fraud, and you know, AI is introducing some creative ways to catch that. So without giving the secret sauce away, how did you do it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, so the the big thing that's really interesting is I've been looking at this fraud issue, and I just got asked to see if it was, you know, if there was a theoretical kind of interesting way to solve the problem was um most people when they look at problems around data science or whatever else, and I mean that was what my doctorate was kind of aligned on was data science and cyber. And what they typically try and do is say, okay, let me find good, and then they'll work really hard to find good, and then they go, okay, well, anything that's not good is potentially or probably problematic, therefore fraud, and whatever else, which, okay, that makes sense. But the issue that you run into is you're you're staking, you're putting a stake in the ground that you will be able to find enough good to train these models. And on AI, which all this stuff that's called AI is really machine learning. Let's just be real about that. It's mathematics and process and compute and applications and those types of things. It does better when you give it a lot of information. And it learns really quickly when you give it tons and tons and tons of data. Now, to do that and find what you want, you have to have a really interesting mathematical approach to bubbling up things that aren't um within the bounds of normality. And that's where it's kind of cool to be able to throw like MCP servers and Claude and some of these other capabilities in there. Like I'm using OpenSwarm to kind of help with a lot of that stuff, to align on what the math derives is actually an issue or a problem. And that that's a hard thing for a lot of people to step back from, is just because we're humans, we think we're smarter than everything else, we can't even fathom the amount of information that's going on here. So if you accept that and you step back and go, okay, I'm gonna give it all of the data that I could possibly get access to, and then I'm gonna give it all of the correlation capabilities from a whole bunch of agents, let it figure it out for itself. And then as it gets better, every time it gets a little bit better and gets you the answer you're kind of hoping to get, it's kind of like um training a dog. You give it a little cookie and you go, yeah, that was right. And then it goes, oh, cool, I like cookies, and then it keeps going and going and going, but you're doing it at a speed and a uh scope that is so astronomically large that it gets really good really fast. So that was kind of the approach that I took was there's volumes, I'm talking hundreds of millions of claims that are out there in these systems. Why are we trying to find good when we know that good is not the problem? We know bad is the problem. And funny enough, when you flip the model and you start looking at it from that approach, bad bubbles up pretty quick. And bad is really becomes a correlation question. It's not even an identification issue. Uh, and the scope of what we're identifying is massive. I mean, to the tune of billions of dollars of of fraud.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So are you using how are you training the the the model on all right? Let me back up. Let me back up.
Meet Dr. Zero Trust
SPEAKER_00One, welcome to cybernomics. And for for the person listening to this who has no clue who you are, what you do, other than being Dr. Zero Trust, which I think gives us a hint, gives us give us the 30-second rundown on who is Dr. Chase in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So I'm a retired Navy chief. I was a cryptologist uh my career. Uh, then I was in NSA for a while after that, and then I was a Forester research analyst, uh, launched all the zero trust stuff into the market, which is John Kindervog coined it and built all the framework and the, or excuse me, he built the foundation. I built the framework and kind of formalized it. Um, so it was I tell people I'm like the the red-headed stepchild of Kinder Vogue's ghost, right? I mean, that's kind of where that came from. And then on top of that, I've managed to file some patents and write some books. And uh my my doctoral studies were specifically around algorithms for um determining insider threat. And that was just kind of lucky and funny enough, this whole fraud thing kind of came out of that that research.
Zero Trust Becomes Table Stakes
SPEAKER_00Okay. I gotta ask, zero trust, is it still a thing? Is or was it a buzzword that has kind of fleeted away?
SPEAKER_01No, I mean we've we've totally jumped the shark to, you know, what do they what do they say, cross the chasm? And now it is an actual capability set that's being deployed in a whole bunch of agencies and organizations. And I think that the good thing is it's not as buzzy as it was. Like now it has kind of become table stakes. Uh, and you see there's a lot of organizations that are moving pretty heavily towards this. So yeah, I was really worried for a while that we were just gonna buzzword our way out of the value proposition, but luckily um it it managed to kind of take hold.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. All right, back to the algorithm
Turning LLMs On Their Head
SPEAKER_00and the math. I know I'm hopping all over the place, but let's dig into the math a little bit. How fundamentally similar is the math that you've you've kind of based this patent on for fraud detection? How similar is that to the machine learning that we see in the frontier L LLMs like Claude and you know Deep Seek and Chat GPT and so on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so those systems um algorithmically, mathematically, are are they they're kind of like yes engines. Really, what they're doing is they're taking in tons and tons of information and they're basically trying to find a way to get to the answer that you're asking it. I mean, that's that's what they do, right? And they're that's good because they give you a lot of really good information, but it's also mathematically kind of counterintuitive because they're always working to find the plus one answer. Um, whereas the answer might actually be negative three. So mathematically speaking, like you've got to be able to take those systems and kind of turn them on their head and put them in the right frame of mind, I guess is a way to say it. And like I a billion percent, like I'm using all these AI systems to help me do it because I'm one person and we're dealing with the scope of things that's so huge you couldn't possibly do it alone. But um, you know, there's there's a lot of capability that's there on these systems that people are just kind of stopping at, okay, it's good for making my email faster. Um no, these are these are powerful capabilities. You just have to flip it. And there's a uh actually I can send it over and provide it, or somebody can look it up. But if you go on GitHub, there's a really good breakdown from one of the creators of Claude Original, and he's got a whole thing in there that tells you how to put this snippet into Claude and actually make it work better. And once you do that, like the results that come out of Claude, you're like, oh, now I kind of see where this thing was trying to get to.
SPEAKER_00Holy crap. Okay, I'm I'm gonna, I've got my computer in front of me, and I'm gonna say uh Claude GitHub.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so look up uh um multica m-l t-i-c a dot ai and it's Andres Kaparthi-skills.
SPEAKER_00It's a skill. Okay. I see it. Okay, very cool. I'll add this to the LinkedIn post. So if you're listening to this and you're on LinkedIn, check it out. And there it is. It's a skill that makes Claude better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it makes it where Claude is not. I mean, these AI systems are that's why it bothers me when people talk about I don't like their AI. They're not self-aware. They're doing what you tell them to do, and if you don't tell them the right way, uh then they won't do what you want. And that that's not necessarily useful, right? I mean, it could be um could actually be detrimental to what you're trying to achieve.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. All right, so just to book bookend this, are you saying that the fundamental difference between the mathematics that you are working on and what's in the LLMs is that the LLMs are basically built for what is good, also you know, what is positive versus the mathematics that you've introduced is focusing on the negative, what is bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then what let me be very specific about bounding that is what I'm talking about specifically around the asking a giant data set to find indications of fraudulent activity is what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_00Now totally different outcomes.
SPEAKER_01Right, taking care of your email and flights and all that crap or credit cards or whatever, different story. But just for the point of reference for people to be aware, like these AI systems, um, you don't have to take them at face value. Like they're they're tools. If you if you want a really powerful shovel, like bolt steam engine to it, that type of thing.
SPEAKER_00I feel like we're in the wild west right now, and a lot of folks aren't even basically prepared. A lot of companies aren't even basically prepared.
Agent Swarms And Solo Scale
SPEAKER_00They're using Chat GPT for emails and drafting stuff and writing things. What's the next step beyond that? How do how do companies go from using different tools and you know plugging stuff in and supervising it, probably not getting that much productivity out of it because they spend half their time on the on the stupid thing? What's the next step? What's the level up?
SPEAKER_01The level up, I think, is starting to to swarm. Um, and that's where like open swarm, I think, is a really good approach. There's also one called open human. And the the benefit there is you're taking a bunch of, let's call them, little agents and throwing them at one problem. And you you ask the one question or you ask the one prompt, and then you let those agents kind of bounce off of each other. It's basically like if you took 10 smart people and put them in a room and said, solve this problem, you'd get 10 different approaches to the problem, but eventually you get one outcome that's really good. And that's where we're trying to get to. And I I think that um that's where companies can can migrate uh uh overall. I I would also suggest that this is probably the best time in history to be an entrepreneur because now if you use these things correctly, you can operate like a full-scale business, in some cases, a small enterprise all on your own. And why do I need to give my paycheck percentage to some dude sitting in his Lambo when I can do it myself and keep my money?
SPEAKER_00I've got one reason why not. I'll play devil's advocate for a second. Is that okay? Yep. A lot of folks are jumping into the to the pool, creating software, and don't uh and they don't know how to maintain software or how to manage software.
SPEAKER_01So a billion percent I agree with you. And caveat with what I was saying was I don't necessarily mean even creating software. I mean being an entrepreneur on a whole bunch of different fronts. Um, and maybe you're so I'll give you an example, right? Like I'm also setting up uh an indoor golf simulator business, right, which is a whole different thing, has nothing to do with software or whatever else. However, I'm using agents and open swarm and some of this stuff to help me streamline onboarding people into the business and then also marketing and outreach. I haven't written a thing for the marketing side, but I've got agents that are writing uh outreach for me right now, and now I'm working like I have a marketing person.
SPEAKER_00What's the most useful skill that you call upon? The thing that Dr. Zero Trust is good at that helps you as an entrepreneur that's using a hybrid workforce? Or at this point, you're saying like it's just you and and the AI, so it's it's you're basically a cyborg. What is what what what what what skills are you employing on a daily basis to make that successful?
SPEAKER_01I think the thing is to be very specific, like treat the AI and the agents like you would a human employee. You know, you don't go to somebody in finance and go, hey, figure out how to go market this thing. You say, go figure out what our tax implications are for 2026. So if you do that and you've got your agents aligned to those problem spaces, you'll get the outcome that you want. And that's where people can go wrong here is they go, oh, cool, I'm gonna ask the agent to do all of these things. And it's you wouldn't do that to a human employee. You shouldn't do that to an agent or for uh, you know, an agentic swarm either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Being precise, I think, is it goes a really long way rather than I know I'm guilty of this. I some sometimes I just want ChatGPT to fill in the blanks and to read my mind. Yeah, but it doesn't work at scale.
SPEAKER_01Uh it doesn't work when you're trying to when you when you actually most people have an idea of the outcome they're expecting, and it's just like, you know, I I I'm I'm doing a briefing next week, and I I have a slide that's like talking to AI agents is like talking to a teenager. That's pretty much what you're doing. The teenager always thinks they know more than you and they're smarter than you, and they're gonna move really fast, and they're gonna come up with an answer that probably is right for them, but it's not really gonna benefit your use case. So just like you talk to a teenager, and I do the I have teenagers in my house, I tell them, here's what I want, here's what I expect. Now repeat back to me what I told you to do, and then go do that.
SPEAKER_00That's great. That is that is such a great framework for uh well, those of us who don't have kids never would have crossed my mind, but that's awesome. I love it.
SPEAKER_01It works, it does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
Shadow AI And Data Leakage
SPEAKER_00Well, let's talk about the elephant in the room, which is AI security. I work with businesses all day, every day, and I can tell you, they're worried. They're worried about shadow AI, which is their employees using rogue tools, or they're concerned that their sensitive data is getting leaked into the chat GPT pool. Or what I see more than anything nowadays is that the agents are little gossip tea spillers. They spill the beans, and they will tell you if they're not if you don't have your access control stuff in order, they will tell you what Jim Smith makes, what his salary is, and who's making more money than who, and who got in trouble with HR and all that stuff? So we're seeing that the people are just super worried about rolling out AI, and I think that it's it's it's it's a problem. Um, what would you say to a business owner who is afraid of deploying AI because of that sensitive data that might get leaked out or the company secrets that might get into the wrong hands? How do you how do you assure him that AI is the way to go and we should do it now?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think the the big thing to remember is that um you you're leveraging another, just like with cloud that came along, or if I thought, oh, cool, I'll use the cloud. Well, the cloud is provided to you, they don't give a damn if it's secure. Like that's not their problem. AI systems are the same way. You're putting your stuff in there, and if you don't have the right controls around it and the right knowledge and the understanding of what's gonna be leveraged, you might as well put it on a billboard. Uh, and then also, you know, put on the billboard on the 405 around LA because a lot of people are gonna see it. So that that stuff needs to be taken care of, and you should have a programmatic approach to this. The tech to help keep this stuff wrangled up exists currently, but you've got to get on it now. If you try and get on it a year from now, the genie is already out of the bottle. Um, and that that's not the right way to approach the problem.
SPEAKER_00What's some of that tech that you're talking about that's there to help them get their arms around this?
SPEAKER_01If you go off and look, like there's companies like Rico, RECO, that's doing really good stuff in the space. Um, there's been some companies that were recently acquired, like Cisco just bought asterisk for non-human identities doing things inside of agentic systems. Um, so there's a whole lot of really good uh solutions that are out there. Just take your time and do the research and figure out which ones meet your needs and then go forward from that. But you're gonna do this one way or the other. Uh you're either gonna have the business objectives gonna shove it down your throat and you're gonna have to figure it out, or start greasing the skids now and get ahead of it. Uh and and you know, be proactive, reactive in the space. The only person or the only group that's benefiting from that is um either the bad guys or the failure that's coming your way.
SPEAKER_00Can I quote you the next time I talk to someone and they're afraid to roll out AI? And I say, I talk to zero trust. This guy is it's in his title. He does not trust anything. I don't know if you've heard of the word zero, but it means nothing. And he said that this is okay. Could I do that, Craig? Could I say that?
SPEAKER_01Sure, but you should also remind them like apply zero trust principles inside of your AI uh plan and strategy, right? And I mean, that's you know, that's that's the good thing. Uh and I was having this conversation with a business leader recently. He was talking about AI this and AI that. And I said, tell me what's really different about an agent. Tell me what is different than what we've done in the past. Is it not using the OSI model? No, it is. Okay. Does it not use the network? Yes, it does. Does it not touch other things inside of repositories and those things? Yes. Okay. Then all you're doing is you're saying that you have a system that operates at a speed and scale that is astronomically better than what we had in the past. The same fundamentals still apply. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, that's a great point. The fundamentals not only apply, but they compound and they multiply. So any vulnerabilities and anything that you don't that's a really good point. I was working with a customer the other day, and we weren't doing anything with security, had nothing to do with security. We're just rolling out a chat bot, an AI HR chat bot. And I was like, what information do you not want people to see? And we looked at their their environment, and it turns out that a whole bunch of people who they had shared the chat bot with has access to HR documents that they shouldn't have. So access control became a part of the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, if you're if you're at a stage where you're still not understanding the value proposition of, you know, the the uh access management and password management and micro-segmentation, those things, like you you are not ready to engage in a full-on use case around agentic or AI or whatever. And the reason for that is you're sitting in a room with the floor is on fire, but it's smoldering, and you're just like, cool, I'm gonna bathe myself in gasoline and think nothing bad is gonna happen. It'll get really wrong really, really quickly. So, yeah, those people should have a real um come to Jesus conversation and go, okay, do we need to take a step back and figure out what the issue is here?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And that's not comfortable. I mean, but you know, i if you asked a business leader, would you rather have me uh try and unscrew this six months from now or spend some time to get it right off the bat, every one of them with a brain in their head will say, Let's do it right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's do it now. Yeah. Well,
Deepfakes And Reality Breakdown
SPEAKER_00what keeps you up at night when it comes to AI?
SPEAKER_01I mean, honestly, what keeps me uh concerned is is things like deep fakes and the uh modification of reality, if you will, in the digital space, because that is where uh if I'm talking attack scenarios or problems that could lead to human death, that's what concerns me, right? Is people no longer are able to understand what is real, what is fake. Like I uh my kids all the time are coming in talking about some other crap they saw on, you know, the internet or whatever. And I'm like, does that does that really seem legitimate to you? Well, you know, they were talking about it, whatever else. I'm like, those are bots talking about it, and those are people that are trying to sell you a product talking about it, they're just doing all YouTube. Um, and I think we have an issue where the population in general is not willing to take the time to actually go, let me go verify or validate this with a couple of sources. And people panic, people freak out, bad things happen. Like that to me is what concerns me. The AI systems themselves, I think, are doing an okay job. Funny, like tangential story, like the stuff that I'm working on right now. I've tried to throw in secrets and RSA keys and stuff like that, and the systems go, uh-uh, like, can't do that. Rotate those keys. So, you know, I I'm kind of at a stage where I see people saying that this is a problem. Like, are you illiterate? Because it's pretty clear what do you do, something you shouldn't do.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. AI psychosis is a real thing. Yeah. I almost fell into it myself. Genius. Yeah. Um, well, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people share that um that concern that the humans are really the risk. Surprise, surprise. All right,
Mission Mindset And Vendor Hype
SPEAKER_00Chase, in the time that we have left, what are you working on that you want people to know and how do they find you?
SPEAKER_01So the easiest way to find me is obviously on uh, you know, uh social media. I'm all over LinkedIn and those types of things. And I'm not there because I I'm trying to promote me. I think uh that this is a mission thing. Like I I have kids, right? And I uh I'm being retired military, those things too. Like I I fundamentally believe in the digital world, every human being on the planet has a right to operate securely. And I think that that's something that more people should gravitate towards. And for me, when I'm out there just you know banging away or making fun of vendors or having a f you know laugh on the internet or whatever, I'm doing it because I really want people to be aware of this stuff and to take it seriously, even though I'm usually joking. But I mean, the that that's where I exist. Um Don't make money off of this stuff, like I intentionally don't. I just I I think that this is a mission. Um, and you know, it's incumbent on those of us that do understand the problem to try and help those that don't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. What's your beef with the vendors?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's not the issue that I have with the vendors is when they um when they jump on things just for the sake of market share rather than like they actually have a valuable solution that might solve the problem. Because some of them are egregious. Some of them are like the new thing will come on and they'll word vomit everything they can onto the marketing slick about how they do this and whatever else, and uh. I mean, it's kind of like all the the experts you see on TV on the news, like one week they're a cyber expert, the next week they're an Iranian Iranian conflict expert, the next week they're an economics person. It's like, you know, kind of pick your wicket, man. Like you can do that thing, and I'll take your word for it. But the I mean, money's the root of all evil. I mean, the you know, we've known that for a long time too. And the more market share there is here, the more vendor shenanigans we get into.
SPEAKER_00Um is this is this something that you grew up with, this mission, or is it something that happened along the line just uh tied to an event in life?
SPEAKER_01No, I mean I I I grew up in a cattle ranch in Texas. I joined the military after that. I've always believed that uh our purpose, you know, this is just my own humble belief, but I believe our purpose on on Earth is to try and serve others in some way, shape, or form, and that you were given a a set of gifts by whatever power you believe in. And you know, it's a waste of your time on this planet if you don't help other people however you can. So, like for me, that's what I want to do. Um, and I'm okay. Like, I I I I look at myself in the mirror and I'm not I don't feel bad about me. So that's as good as it gets.
SPEAKER_00That is as good as it gets. Wise words, my friend. Uh man, I I I I feel like we don't dig in enough on the on the why. We just get up and we do stuff, and it seems like you've got a very good, bright North Star. And it's it's always amazing to talk to people like you.
SPEAKER_01It helps, it gives you a if you have a something that drives why, like you said, it gives you something to actually tr strive for, other than you know, oh God, I gotta go do this. Like, and I'm not saying that every day is wake up and just hooray, let's go to work. Like, but at least at the end of the day, you could step back and go, all right, did I do something that you know benefited somebody? Hopefully.
SPEAKER_00What do you want to leave for your kids?
SPEAKER_01I would like to leave them in a world that I think is um more digitally secure and more uh useful for them in the future. Um, I I see the the tea leaves tell me that our kids and our kids' kids are gonna be so deeply entrenched in tech, but they're not gonna know how it works. So that's where I'm trying to align for my, you know, small bit of influence is here's where you can do things the right way, and here's the reality of what that stuff actually is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Final question. If things keep going the way they're going, the way that you see the world, will that be a world that you envision for your kids? Or do you think that we're moving away from that ideal vision that you have now?
SPEAKER_01I think we're teetering on the edge of I won't call it cataclysm, but problems for the for the generations that are coming. And the the reason that that is, it's it's kind of funny because it's the same thing we've had for the last X number of years where it's not the tech and it's not the understanding, it's the speed. And that speed is being driven by market dynamics, which is not the way to do it. And you know, everyone talks about democratizing technology, great, we should, but you're democratizing capability for everyone on the planet when they don't understand what this stuff is or how it works.
SPEAKER_00Dr. Zero Trust, uh, appreciate you coming on cybernomics. And if people want to find you, head over to LinkedIn, trust me, it's always a fun time on Chase's page, he's always got something going on. I've been following him for years. I appreciate you coming on cybernomics.
Where To Follow And Learn More
SPEAKER_00And if you want to learn more about cybernomics, a couple of ways to do that. You can follow me on LinkedIn or you can go to cybernomics.io, which is our AI advisory website. And so you can learn a lot about AI. Uh I regularly post updated uh regulations, AI news, uh research papers, and insights. So head over to cybernomics.io and check out the cybernomics newsletter on LinkedIn. Chase, thanks again.
SPEAKER_01Hey, good stuff, man. Thanks for the invite. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00All right, I'm gonna hit stop.