“Growing Through Heartbreak to Strength” with Jodi Snowdon, Grace-Linzey’s Mom

Jodi Snowdon is an author, podcaster, and speaker who serves women through her podcast, Depth, and her blog, Heartbreak to Strength. In August 2022, she released her first book, Depth: Growing Through Heartbreak to Strength. Having walked through multiple heartbreaks (divorce, miscarriage, & cancer), Jodi now inspires women to grow deeper in their faith and to find hope, joy, and purpose through their unexpected storms. She lights up the most when she shares her testimony using her cracked clay pot, a visual reminder that God shines brightest through our broken places. She is raising two sons (one in college and one adulting) in Southern California where she teaches science to elementary students in the STEM Lab. Jodi would love to connect with you on her website, jodisnowdon.com or on Instagram @jodi.snowdon

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Transcript

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Speaker 1:26

Well, hi, and welcome to our latest episode. I'm Greg Buffkin, and today I'll be talking with author and podcast host Jodi Snowden. As she shares the story of losing her precious daughter, Grace Linzey, to miscarriage. And our conversation will explore the impact of grief and suffering as well as an honest look into what it means to be real and transparent with God about our pain and questions so that we can experience him in our storm and experience him gently and lovingly healing our soul and restoring hope, joy, and purpose to our lives. And now here's my conversation with Jodi. Well, Jodi, welcome to our podcast. It's so good to have you with us today.

Speaker 1 2:15

Thank you for having me, Greg. I'm excited to talk with you.

Speaker 2:17

Well, I've been looking forward to it. We started this process back a couple of months ago and finally were able to get you on the schedule, and here we are today. So why don't you just take a couple of minutes, Jodi, and and tell our listeners a little bit about you and where you guys live and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 2:34

Yeah. So my name's Jody Snowden, and I actually live in California. I live kind of near the beach, about 20 minutes away. That's my happy place. I love to go there as often as I can, and that's like my time with God. If I need time to reconnect, I love going there. I have two sons and I have a daughter that I lost in a miscarriage. And I'm actually a school teacher. I teach science. I never sought out to like have a ministry, but God birthed a ministry in me through my losses. I lost my baby in 2006, and that was the first time God kind of used me to help another hurting heart. My life first was birthed. And I'll tell you more about that soon. I also went through a divorce and that one broke me. I felt like a shattered pot just cracked in all the places. And God just used that to kind of redefine brokenness. That that's not a negative thing, that it actually is something God can use to help another hurting heart. And so I love the lessons I learned through the divorce. And that was two years after that, I lost my dear friend to cancer. And so in my book, Depth that I wrote, it's it's those three storylines that God has asked me to share and kind of how you go from heartbreak to strength. How can you be stronger in Him? Not our own strength, but stronger in the Lord's strength as we go through these losses in our life.

Speaker 3:42

Yeah, that's that's the important thing. And uh just out of curiosity, I know this is a very personal question, but did the divorce occur after the miscarriage?

Speaker 1 3:52

Yes, about eight years after. So it was quite some time after, yeah.

Speaker 3:56

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sorry that you've been through that, but I'm so glad to see and hear how well you're doing now. And so what I'd like to do at this point, Jody, is just have you take us back in time a little bit and and just tell us about where your grief journey really started. And you referenced the miscarriage of your daughter, Grace Lindsay.

Speaker 1 4:16

Yes. Okay, so 2006, we had had Kyle. He was three years old, and we were so excited to be pregnant again and have a sibling for Kyle. And uh I had a lot of complications with my first pregnancy. So we did not announce to the world that we were having another baby till I knew we were first through the first trimester. And I went in at 12 weeks, they did the Doppler and the baby's heartbeat was strong, and they said, oh, less than 5% chance of any complications. So we decided to take a picture of Kyle wearing I'm gonna be a big brother t-shirt, and we announced to the world we're expecting again. And little did we know that a month later that would all change. And so around 13 to 14 weeks pregnant, when you kind of go from first trimester to second trimester and you have this burst of energy, I did not feel pregnant anymore. And a lot of my friends were like, Well, it's just the change of trimester. I'm like, no, I know how that feels. I've experienced it. Something's wrong. But there was no signs, no cramping, bleeding, nothing's in my heart. I'm just like, am I worried about something that's not there? And so I, my 16-week appointment, I could not wait to get there and just hear the baby's heartbeat again and just have complete peace. Because up until then, I was at two weeks of just something is wrong. It was that mother's intuition. Well, I get to my 16-week appointment, and I have to tell you, the drive there, that's where my book starts. It's the anxious drive there. I was so nervous because I just in my heart was like, what something doesn't feel right. So we get into the doctor's office, the doctor and I, and she puts the Doppler on my belly, and five minutes goes by and she cannot find the heartbeat. And this time all you hear is my heartbeat, and it's getting faster and faster and faster as she cannot find the babies. And so at this point, I'm like, I'm like, oh my goodness, is this really happening? Like, is what I thought was wrong really wrong? So then they send me into a room for an ultrasound because that's when you can really tell. And they don't, the text can't tell you anything, but I had had a baby, I knew where to look for the heartbeat, and they immediately put the picture up. The baby looked fully formed, the baby looked totally fine, but the only thing was missing was the flicker of the heartbeat. There was no flicker. And at that moment in time, I was devastated and crushed. It was the first time that the world just did not go as I had hoped or expected. You know, what you had planned, and I just I was crushed.

Speaker 6:17

Yeah. I can only imagine.

Speaker 1 6:19

Yeah.

Speaker 6:20

Yeah. Yeah. We've been through a couple of those ourselves. And so I understand from a personal perspective, as you know, as a husband, what it's like to see my wife go through that twice and and how crushing that is.

Speaker 1 6:35

It is definitely something that I think culture overlooks as a loss. Miscarriage is a real loss, and it's really devastating, especially I think for the woman, because she's carrying the baby. She's felt the baby at some point. I was in my second trimester, so I had like just thought everything was going to be fine, and it just, it was crushing. And we had just announced to the world that we were expecting. So then we had to send an email to everyone as saying that the baby had stopped growing. And it was, it was really hard. I think the hardest person to tell was my son. He was so excited to be a big brother. And I remember going into, he was at my mom's when I was at the appointment, I had called my mom and told her so she knew. And I just came in and knelt down next to him. And he just could tell I had been crying. You know, kids are just into it to see that mom was upset. And he just hugged me. And then I had to tell him that the baby had stopped growing. And you know, three-year-olds don't really fully understand death and loss. And but we tried our best to explain. And he was just so sweet through the whole thing of just wanting to send little kisses up to baby Grace in heaven. We we didn't name her Grace until a little farther along, we had some genetic testing done and we found out she was a girl, and she had something called Turner syndrome, which some children actually survive with Turner syndrome. It's actually something where that, so you're usually X X or XY, or the second X is missing. So you can still survive, you just don't have that secondary X. And so some kids, you know, are born and live, and there's there's children that have Tener syndrome. But many babies, that's why it's second and third, second and third trimester losses a lot with Turner syndrome. So we did find out that's what she had. And at the time when I went into my doctor, it was really sad. The they just kind of wipe your hands clean of you once you're no longer carrying a baby that's living. She's like, okay, you're gonna have to go over here to have the baby removed. And it was like a planned parenthood. And I'm like, this was not an unwanted pregnancy. I do not want to go there. And she's like, Well, there's nothing else I could do for you because it's a second trimester loss, and I can't, you know, they just it's it's more just a normal procedure is not as safe when it's the second trimester. So the Lord is so good. There was a doctor at my church, and his name was Dr. Lindsay, L-I-N-Z-E-Y, which is why Grace has the middle name Lindsay.

Speaker 8:40

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 8:40

And he was a Christian, but he was also, you know, delivered babies. So he said, I'll meet with you and just see if I can help. And because the baby had passed at 14 weeks, which is when I felt that there was something wrong, that's still on the border of first and second trimester. And so he was able to help. And so we named her middle name after him because he was our godson. He was our answer to prayer. And I have a chapter in the book where I talk about just praying to God because I had just lost the baby. I was in grief, and here I am now trying to figure out what to do because I don't want to walk, you know, to an abortion clinic. And I there's people out picketing, and it's like, I was gonna make a poster that said I lost my baby by miscarriage. I'm just coming to have it removed. Like I just didn't want them, you know, I don't, I was, it was this horrible thought. But then God, by his grace, gave us a doctor at our church to help us. And so, yeah, lots of lots of trauma and stress around the loss of that baby.

Speaker 9:30

Yeah. Don't you love how God gives us those divine appointments at just the right time?

Speaker 1 9:36

Yes. Yeah. And a full answer to prayer for sure.

Speaker 9:40

Yeah, absolutely. And something you just said triggered this thought that in our culture, we really we really kind of brush off the the death of a child through miscarriage. And a lot of that has come through the culture that we have in the States today, you know, where abortion is just acceptable and it happens every day. And it and it really has brought a lot of people to the point where life is just not as precious as it once was. We don't look at it that way anymore. And we don't look at babies in the womb as being human beings, and they are.

Speaker 1 10:21

They are. Yeah. I remember this one lady said heartlessly to me, let me just throw this in. Oh, it's survival of the fittest. So I guess your baby wasn't the fittest. And I remember just being like, what? Do you think that's comforting? Do you think that's helpful? Like, I was shocked. And she was just someone that my other my son went to preschool with. And so I do think that's how the world looks at things, but it is a life. It is Yeah, it is.

Speaker 10:45

Yeah. And as you said a few minutes ago, it it especially hits a mom hard because that baby shares your DNA and you share that baby's DNA. So it it is very, very personal. It's not just emotional, it's physiologic as well. And so when a mom loses a baby to miscarriage, she grieves. Yes. But I don't think the outside world really appreciates the fact that that grief does come with miscarriage. And I I'd like for you to talk about that a little bit. And from the perspective, too, of you know, prior to losing Grace Lindsay, did you have at that point any experience with grief? I mean, uh, of course, you know, we all know that people die, and we all have probably lost a grandparent along the way, but until you lose a child, it's it that perspective, you really cannot appreciate that perspective, and you can't appreciate that that depth of loss. So what was that like for you, Jody?

Speaker 1 11:48

You know, I hadn't experienced anything like that before. You know, my my parents both lost their one of their parents when they were young. So when I was born, I only had two living grandparents, one from each side, and they both passed before I was five or when I was five. So I don't have even remembrance of that. We did adopt the sweet lady at our church to be our grandma. And I do remember when she passed, it it was very hard. But you know what? It's interesting. I I someone shared this with me when I lost my dad. I just lost my dad in May, and this was really helpful when I was looking at it. So imagine us our lives are like books. So, you know, when I was born, next to my book would be my two parents' books, and they had still some living parents. So then there were their books. And and it's natural for that last book on the end, you know, to fall, right? Like that's the way it's supposed to do. So then I had my babies, right? And then, and then someday they're gonna have babies, right? And then we're gonna be the book on the end. So when my dad passed, I mean, it was horrible and hard and not what we wanted, but he was 84 and he lived a good life. And so there's still grief, and it's just not the same as a book falling out of order. But when a book falls in the middle, like for example, a child passes, that is when the grief is like, this isn't how it's supposed to be, right? This is the it's supposed to be the the the ones that have lived a good life. When their time has come and God brings them home, that's when the book falls, but not a book out of order. And so, you know, you have experienced a book falling out of order, and most of your listeners haven't. And so I just want to say that is such a hard type of grief. And so for my baby, it was a book falling out of order. And I can't even compare it though to the loss of a child that has been living. I think that would be even more hard. But I still think anytime those books don't fall in the way we think they will, it leaves a deeper hole in our heart. Does that make sense?

Speaker 13:30

It it does, absolutely. You know, we don't really come equipped and prepared for this, do we? We have we see life as a sort of a predictable pattern, as you were talking about. You know, when that that book on the end falls, that's kind of the expected thing. When we lose a parent or grandparent, you know that's gonna happen. Are we ever really totally prepared for it? No, probably not. But you know it's gonna happen. But you you when you become a parent. I mean, even when you become a parent with your your baby still living in the womb, you don't expect to lose your child.

Speaker 1 14:07

Correct.

Speaker 14:07

That we just we just make that assumption, and we do it unconsciously, of course, that we're gonna always have that child with us. And we will be the one to be buried by our child one day.

Speaker 1 14:22

Correct. Not the other way around.

Speaker 14:24

Exactly.

Speaker 1 14:25

So that's what's so hard. And I I did never experience anything like that. So this is the first time that grief had hit me in a way that I mean, I was crushed and heartbroken, and I just was devastated by it. I I'm a very outgoing person and I just shut down. And I just hunkered down and got closer to the Lord in a way I hadn't before. But I just I I normally like to be around people and I didn't want to be around a lot of people. I just wanted to be in my house with my my son Kyle at the time I was still married. And and you know what? That we just wanted to survive. It was the it was a summer, it was June 8th, June 8th. I'll never forget the day. And it's amazing how God works because you know, I'm one of those that I remember dates in my head, and God has redeemed that date in the most beautiful way through the book because there's an acrostic I have in the book called Strength. And when I felt like God was calling me to write the book, I said, How do you write a book with three storylines, God? Like, I don't know how you do it. Do you chronologically, like, what would be the best way? And so I prayed fervently for the Lord to give me guidance. And on June 8th, he did. He dropped this strength acrostic in my head on a way to my son's field trip. I tell us a little bit about it in other podcasts, but it was just this beautiful gift. And I remember going, it's June 8th, like it's baby Grace's day. And what a gift that God redeemed it with poor milk.

Speaker 15:40

Yeah, that indeed is a very sweet gift. And how could you ever forget a date like that?

Speaker 1 15:45

I know. Wow. Yeah. So now I kind of feel like it's both. It's like a day where I remember her, but it's a day I remember God's faithfulness. So I'll tell more about that acrostic in a little bit when we get to my book. But I I just think loss is hard, and I think loss when it's unexpected, when it's not what you would have hoped or thought in your life, you know. Like you said, we we expect that someday we'll grow old and our kids will, you know, have to plan our our service, not the other way around. And so I want to just share it say to someone that's go that has it the wrong, you know, that that went that other way, that just like, I am so sorry. Like my heart breaks for you. It's just it's very hard.

Speaker 16:20

Yeah. People who have never experienced what we have can't possibly even begin to understand it. And truth of the matter is, we we wouldn't really want them to understand it, would we? Because it means that they would have had to have experienced it. But it just it calls for a lot of grace and sensitivity on the part of people looking in from the outside. And it honestly also calls for a lot of grace on our part because other people don't come equipped knowing how to deal with our loss, do they?

Speaker 1 16:53

Yes. No, they struggle.

Speaker 16:55

They struggle. Sometimes they say things that are hurtful, not meaning to. They, you know, I think most people really do seriously want to try to help us and help, you know, mend that broken heart and see us laugh again and get the old Jody back or the old Greg back. And there is no old Jody or old Greg to get back because the loss of a child changes us. And and we're yes, of course, we retain our personality. I don't mean that, of course, but we're never the same people again. And so we can't be the same people in those relationships that that we once were, particularly early on. I think as time goes on and we and God begins that healing process and we we cooperate with him in that and let other people into our journey with us, people that we can trust that you know, that will be kind and compassionate and patient and gracious, then I I think those relationships can get better, but it it's hard on everybody because again, we don't come equipped with an instruction booklet on how to do things like this.

Speaker 1 18:10

Right. No, I agree. I think that's why support groups are such a great way if you are walking through grief. So I joined a group called Empty Arms at our church. It was for it was a group for people that lost a baby. So it could be uh miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, you know, even if the baby lived like a you know a day or two, sometimes that's the case. And and it was geared towards that loss. So you felt like people understood you.

Speaker 18:34

That's important. I think that sometimes just uh being a part of a group where it's just general loss, you know, brother, you know, parent, a husband, wife, it's really hard for parents who have lost a child to be able to identify and and vice versa. So uh that's good that your church offered that. I'm glad that you were able to take advantage of it. And sometimes we have to look to find those because you know, let's face it, those resources are kind of few and far between. A lot better now than it was when you and I were going through our losses.

Speaker 1 19:09

Yes.

Speaker 19:09

But we're certainly not there yet.

Speaker 1 19:11

Aaron Powell Yeah, I agree with that. I do think you should find something that goes with what you, you know, so whatever the loss was, if it was cancer related or, you know, because I know that that they're just all different, right? There's different things you experience. If it was sudden, you know, was it long, you know, watching them suffer. I mean, my friend who passed to cancer, watching her suffer was so hard. You know, my dad passed quicker. It still wasn't as like immediate, but we got to say our goodbyes, but it was also not long suffering. But yeah, I just think everything's a little different. But finding someone that understands, and then someday you are gonna be that person that someone else behind you will hopefully be able to reach out to because you'll be able to understand their pain and speak into them. And I think that's one of the ways God redeems it. I know I'm jumping ahead, but I just thought I'd throw that in real quick.

Speaker 19:57

No, no, that's that's important. That's those are good words, and it's important. Yeah, I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago when after you lost uh Grace Lindsay, and you just kind of you just kind of went into a uh a very sheltered place. You didn't want to, you're very outgoing, but you just didn't want to be around other people. And that's understandable. It it does it does strange things to us. And what I would like for you to share with us is how did you come from that place of being so isolated to being able to step back into life again, as it were, and and find some meaning and and hope and purpose again, Jody. How what did that process look like for you?

Speaker 1 20:47

Yeah, I think I think it was our summer where we kind of took that time off, you know, instead of being so busy with other people, because again, like you said, everyone means well, but they don't understand. So their words were sometimes hurtful. And so it was just easier to be like, I'm just gonna take a little time away from other people, you know, not to be, but again, be with people that did understand. So our Sunday nights were the empty arms support group. And it was eight weeks, so it kind of took us through summer, and it was such a gift. I we still attended church in our small group, but we, you know, we just really decided to be careful who we were around just because it was so hurtful. And but my son, you know, he's three years old and he's an active boy, so I've still got to get him out and about, right? So I remember going to a little Thomas the train table at the library one day. And I was just excited, libraries are quiet. I thought I, and this lady walks up with her son, super sweet, you know, she doesn't know my story. She goes, Do you have any other kids? And oh my goodness, that one question just I didn't know how to answer it. Yeah. And I'm thinking, what do I say? So I remember just kind of getting teary-eyed and saying, I'm so sorry, I just lost a baby. And she felt horrible. It wasn't her fault. She didn't say anything wrong. People ask that question all the time. But I just realized maybe I'm not ready to be out yet. You know, that was kind of, but I remember taking that question to my empty arms group and saying, how do you answer that? And they were so great. They're like, Well, how would you like to answer it? We worked through it. So I came up with an answer of I have one child in heaven and one child here on earth, which was a way to answer it without breaking down. And so that was helped me then go, okay, if I have another person, I come into contact, ask now I'm prepared. Now I have an answer. Because I think we don't know what's going to happen when we go out into the world again, right? And so we have to be kind of get ourselves ready. You know, no one that was not a hurtful question. Do you have any other kids? That's, I mean, I've asked that tons of times to another mom I've met.

Speaker 22:33

Of course.

Speaker 1 22:33

So, but for someone who's just lost a child, that's like a pain-filled question. And so I just had to kind of think, okay, what else do I need to get myself ready for? And so, you know, you just I was in the word. I I I read a lot of books. You know, it's funny, I wasn't a reader before that. And I went on to Amazon. Yeah. I mean, I would read the and now you can see all the books behind me. I'm an avid reader. But back then, I would read the one little book that came with the Bible study and barely, barely finished it if that. But I just was like, okay, I need to hear other people's stories that they other people have walked through this and made it. And so I got Grieving the Child I Never Knew by Kathy Wennenberg, which I think you've had her on the podcast. I have. And she is now my mentor. It's a crazy story how that all came about, but she was a guest on my podcast when that book came, when I had her on back in 20, I think it was 2020. And we just connected. And I said, you know, I've been praying for a mentor. And she had shared on a She had written another book called Hopelifter. And in that book, she shares how she had prayed for a mentor. And that was Carol Kent. And so I just had her share that story because I'm like, didn't Carol write the the foreword? And so she shares it on my podcast. And then when we stopped recording, I felt like God's saying, you should ask her. And so I said, I just felt like we have connected. Would you be my mentor? And she said yes. And anyways, it's a phenomenal story. But but I connected with her 10, actually 14 years before, because we talked in 2020 for the first time with her book, Grieving the Child, I Never Knew. And and listen to how crazy this is. I purchased probably 20 copies of that book over the next two years. Anytime I heard of someone walking through miscarriage, still birth, infant loss, I prepared a little care package for them. And it was that book, the song Glory Baby. I don't know if you've heard that song, but it's about Oh, you've got to listen to it. It's about the baby being in the arms of Jesus. And it's it will make you cry because it's like, I'm not holding you anymore, but I know Jesus is holding. I mean, it just tearing me up, made me think about. And so I, and then I'd write them a little note just saying, I know that many people will not acknowledge this as a loss, but this is a loss. And so I'm here for you, Phoenix. And hopefully these resources will help you. And it was just this way, God, again, that was like a couple years after, and I'll tell you how it all started with this one lady that that called me, but but I never knew that 14 years later I'd meet Kathy and then she'd become a mentor in my life. And, you know, my mom has dementia, so I sadly still have her in my life, but she can't be like a mentor. She can just be there, you know. I we talk, but like, and so I feel like Kathy's kind of like my bonus mom now that God has gifted me because yeah, she's phenomenal. But I I I I re I got other books too, which I don't remember the names, but I had just went on Amazon and Googled miscarriage and all these books came up, and I probably bought like five books and just dove into them during that time of grief. Just to, I think it helps to know you're not alone. You know, other people have experienced this. You are going to, you know, the God showed up for them. If He showed up for them, then He's gonna show up for me. And so it just gave me hope in the middle of the hurt and just helped me know I I wasn't losing my mind that this was hard, you know, that other people are like, this is hard. This is a loss, and just validating it, you know, just so much truth from these books. And that was one thing I did. That I would say the support group, the the reading books of other people with similar loss, or just even grief books in general, I I just really helped me. And then obviously school starts in, you know, September, and you gotta kind of get back out into so you slowly start making your way back out and being at things. And it was really hard. But I would say that summer that's what I did to help with the grief.

Speaker 25:58

Well, those are good words. And I'm really glad you shared those resources because yeah, Kathy's book I think has been an incredible bestseller. And uh and I know it has really made an impact in the lives of a of an awful lot of grieving moms, particularly.

Speaker 1 26:17

Yeah, for sure. It was it's beautiful because it's little devotionals and it just speaks to you on that day. And then she has some you read like on the due date, you know, which is a hard day. I remember our our due date was in November. And so we planned a special trip as a family to go to San Diego. And I remember just journaling to God and saying, This is so crazy, I should be having a baby right now. But instead I'm hearing, you know, you have to, you have to take those hard days and find a way to help you through them, whether it's the birthday or the day of the loss of the child, you know, you know, like obviously June 8th is kind of my baby's loss and kind of when, you know, so that's I I think it's different when the baby's been born and has lived and then our child's older and like there's dates though, but those dates, like what are you doing to help your hurt on those days that are harder than others? You don't want to just do nothing to just say, oh, I'm just gonna I think it's good to be proactive and have something that will help you, whether it's just I'm gonna, I got a new book and I'm gonna read this book, or I have a friend, I'm gonna go for a walk, or I'm gonna go out of town or something, right? Is do you think that's helpful?

Speaker 27:18

Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's a way of celebrating their life. It takes a while for our perspective to begin to turn because for so long after we lose a child, whether it's through miscarriage or whether it's later in life, our tendency for so long, because it's so traumatic and so painful, we we think about that what we've lost and we think about what we're going to miss. And after a while, I think we, as God heals us, we we're able again to think more about our child's life and the impact that they made on us. And the we think about those, the good memories. We think about them interacting with other people and the and just the the impact that they left behind and the legacy that that they left behind. And so we can celebrate who they are and instead of you know focusing on or allowing our identity to become, we're the parents who lost a child, we can think more in terms of we're the parents who who were so blessed that God gave us this child for however many years or however many months it was. And then we can start thinking, when we think about them, we think, you know, we we smile or we can laugh about things that they did that were funny. And you know what I mean. It just kind of our our sh focus shifts back towards life again.

Speaker 1 28:51

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think it's a great way to say it. And and that doesn't come right at the beginning. So if someone's listening, you know, you have to sit in the pain. You have to grieve, you have to allow the feelings to come through you. So I definitely think though, that's great perspective, though, really good as you move forward, because there'll come a point in time where you'll stop asking why God, and instead say, God, how can I use this to help someone else? So you'll go from why to how or why to who. Who who do you need me to tell my story to? But I don't think that's immediate. And I don't, and I think I think people around you want to rush you to there. They're gonna be like trying to get you through your grief quicker than you already. And I like to talk about grief like being underwater. I used to scuba dive, Greg, when I was young. I haven't scuba dived in years, but when I was 18, I loved scuba diving. And and you have to come up underwater at safety stops and just breathe because if you keep going up too fast, it's not good for your lungs. So I think of grief as like we're underwater and everyone wants us to rush to the surface. You know, be like you were before. But you know what? That's not what you need to do. You need to come to these safety stops underwater. Find someone that's gonna sit with you underwater and just breathe. And you're just gonna be at that place for however long it takes you. And now, okay, now I'm ready to go to the next safety stop. You know, it's like the deeper you go, right? And death brings you deep. You know, 100 feet deep, scuba dive, you gotta stop at 60, you gotta stop at 30, you gotta, you know, you come up all these stuff and you just have to breathe. So what if we could be the friend or the family member that says, I'm not gonna rush your grief, but I'm gonna sit with you underwater. I mean, not literally, but you know what I mean, at these safety stops. Now I'm just gonna be here for you. And however long it takes for you to be at this place, so then you're ready to move up to the next one because it will happen where you become ready, but you can't rush it. And everyone grieves differently. Everyone grieves in different amounts of time.

Speaker 30:39

Yeah, those are such good words, Jody. We don't have to open up to everybody because not everybody is is safe to do that with. We have to, well, we have to pray that that God will bring that person into our life or help us recognize who it is because they're probably 90, probably 99.9% chance is that person is already in your life. If we let them in, there's really no hard work for them to do. It's just a matter of being present and being a listener. It does require that, as you said, that they don't try to fix us, they don't try to rush us through those imagined steps of grief because grief is so incredibly unpredictable.

Speaker 1 31:28

Yeah.

Speaker 31:28

I mean, you know, one person can move from what's referred to as step one to stage four, and then you can step back to stage two again, and it's just kind of all over the board because grief is just messy. I mean, it's just it's just messy. But man, what a blessing when that individual comes into your life and they'll just come and sit with you and listen to you cry. They'll just listen to you share your story. And we were so blessed to have people like that in our lives too, Jodi. And I'm we will always be thankful for those folks.

Speaker 1 32:05

Yeah, it's like the gift of presence. It's not about coming and trying to offer a platitude because there isn't anything you can say. And those are just gonna fall like harsh. They're gonna sound sound very unloving. Instead, it's just the gift of my time, my presence. You know, bring a meal with you because they're gonna want to not have to do the basic things that they're gonna need to shut down and just survive. And so I think that's really great. I'm glad you had people in your life, Greg, that were there for you guys to do that.

Speaker 32:32

Yeah, I think community is is is critical really to to our healing process because we need to we need to be able to be ourselves and not and not be, you'll know you know what I mean by this when I say it, quote unquote on for them. We're just we can just be ourselves, whether that means we're having a really crappy day because we're just down today, and maybe maybe something triggered a grief, you know, this huge tidal wave of of grief that just washed over us all over again when we thought we were doing better. And you know, because it happens. It happens.

Speaker 1 33:11

The waves of grief come all over the place, yeah. And you don't even know something might trigger it. So I think that's really wise. And again, if someone's listening and they they know someone, you know, just again, don't like I read I think of Job in the Bible, you know, and the friends did really great until they opened their mouth. You know, they sat with Job. They sat with him and then they start talking, and it's like it goes downhill real quick. So just be careful words don't always help. You know, words of love. I'm here for you. I care for you, I'm so sorry for your loss. Those are helpful, but fixing words or what trying to help explain the why, none of that's helped.

Speaker 33:48

No, no. And sometimes just practical things that that people can do. You don't even have to ask of, you know, if you if you're a man and you notice that their grass is getting tall, just go and mow it.

Speaker 1 34:01

Yes.

Speaker 34:01

If you walk in and surprise them. It's yeah, exactly. It's you know, if you walk in, it's your girlfriend. Um you can do a load of clothes for her if you see that the you know the basket's overflowing. And you don't have to ask because a lot of times I think if we ask, is there anything I can do for you? We have attendance to say, no, I'm fine. And we're we're really not fine at all. You know, we're crashing and burning, but we just we don't have it in us to say, yeah, I could really use your help. And we're certainly not going to initiate it by picking up the phone and saying, Hey, could you come and mow the grass or hey, could you come and help me do some laundry? That just you won't get that phone call or text, will you?

Speaker 1 34:41

No. And I think it really is helpful if there's someone that knows them really well to kind of be that person that the other people call. Like, what do they need? And like, for example, when my friend passed to cancer, I was kind of that that phone call. So I organized the the meals and I had a carrying breach for her, but I was kind of so then it was easy for them to call me. No one's bugging them, but then I can this is what they need. Oh, they need someone to pick up their child. They need someone to, you know, you know so because there's so much to orchestrate around everything, and that that that is overwhelming for the person. So even a loving friend can come and take that over and be the organizer.

Speaker 35:16

Yeah. It doesn't take much to overwhelm us when we're in, particularly that early season of grief. And something you you talked earlier about uh about going out for the first time. I remember one of the hardest things for my wife after we lost Ryan was going to the grocery store. And it may s that probably sounds really odd to somebody who hasn't been there.

Speaker 1 35:42

Right.

Speaker 35:42

Yeah, I know that you understand that, but Kathy would I mean, she's told me that there were several times she would drive up in the parking lot and sit there for a moment trying to to work work herself up to getting out of the car and going in, and she would just turn around and go back home because she couldn't do it. And I understand that. But you know, she and I are wired very differently, so I was able to do that when she couldn't. But you know, when you go into a grocery store or to a pharmacy, whatever it might be, or into church again for the first time after it happens, you know you're gonna be facing people. And you know that that people are gonna see you as that person who just lost their child and they're gonna be it's gonna be awkward for you, it's gonna be awkward for them. And it's sometimes it's just easier to not do it. Yeah. And so I would say go at your pace.

Speaker 1 36:36

When you're ready, you'll know. When you're ready to go back out, you'll know. And baby steps, right? Like she went to the store. Okay, I'm in the parking lot. That's all I can do today. Drive back home. That's a win. Don't look at it as a loss. That's a win. You know, you got to the parking lot. I think that sometimes these small little tasks that we used to do are bigger now. So break it down. And what can you get do? And again, that's a thing a friend can come and do for you, right? So the person organizing, let's get them their groceries, because they're not able to go out. And I would be worried, who would I run into? That was my biggest fear. I who am I gonna have to talk to about this? I'm not ready to talk to people. Or are they gonna say something hurtful? I I was again, I process externally. So it wasn't that I couldn't talk about it, but it was like, after I had one or two hurtful comments, it's like, I don't want another one. Like that's what I was more nervous about, versus like, I I'm totally able to talk about my grief with you, but are you gonna say something that's gonna make me go home in tears?

Speaker 37:32

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 37:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 37:35

It's those things that you don't know. It's the unpredictable aspect of that. Not knowing if you can handle it and if you can, how will you handle it? So yeah, that's why, you know, as you said, we have to give ourselves a lot of grace because we've never done this before. And we have, you know, you're dealing with the grief brain, which is sort of like the you know, the COVID brain that we dealt with back a few years ago when when all of that happened. And we don't think. We don't think clearly. And little things that previously didn't upset us will now upset us. Things that that just send us crashing to the floor now didn't before. So it's I mean, it it's it really is blazing new territory uh when we didn't want to have new territory to blaze.

Speaker 1 38:26

Yes, yes. I agree on all of that. I I had a friend just recently posted, she works, talks about grief. She lost her husband, but she just posted the greatest thing, and it said, this is how you could text your friend. You could give them, these are the three choices. Check, mark the ones you want. And the last one was all of the above. So one said, bring a meal. The second one said talk, go for a walk. And the third one said, bring you flowers, and then it says, or all of the above. And so then that person can say like what they want. So sometimes if you are talking directly to the person, there isn't someone organizing it, you know, give them options, you know, or I don't know. I just love that idea. Did you like that? That's I thought that was so funny.

Speaker 39:01

I think that's yeah, that's great because it kind of takes the uh burden off of them.

Speaker 1 39:05

Yes.

Speaker 39:06

You know, Jody, something else I wanted to just to hear you talk about. It's obvious that you have a relationship with the Lord. You know Jesus.

Speaker 1 39:14

Yes.

Speaker 39:15

When something like this happens, you know, we go into it with the relationship with Him that we had in place already. And there are things that we, that we know about God, there are things that we think that we know about God, and then something happens and it kind of feels like it pulls the rug out from under us and it makes us question so many things, and sometimes it leaves us questioning God. So how did losing Grace Lindsay affect your relationship with the Lord? And what did you learn about him in your on your grief journey that you didn't know before, possibly?

Speaker 1 39:52

Yeah, that's such a good question. Well, I have to start with a quote because I love this quote by John Ortberg. He says, if you ask someone when they walked away from their faith, the answer will be suffering. But if you ask them when did they grow the deepest in their faith, the answer will be suffering. So I feel like we're on two roads here when we walk through suffering. We can choose to have it deep in our faith, or we can choose to walk away from our faith. Now, here's what a lot of people say. They go, well, how could a good God allow that? I cannot turn to a God that would allow this to happen. And so then you're walking through it alone. But I like to tell people, you don't have to go to God with everything tied up in a red bow. You go to God with the questions, with the doubts. So your choice is if it's like a fork in the road, is choose to seek God in the middle of the pain. That doesn't mean everything's already figured out, right? You seek him for the questions, you wrestle with God. So it's it becomes this time of deepening your faith, but you're going to him with the the, you know, God, what why? Why now? Why me? Like, why? Like those why questions are important. Don't brush them under the drug rug. Allow yourself to have that time with God. But the important thing is to turn to God. Because if you turn your back and you're one of those that just says, I'm out, you're now going through grief completely alone. Absolutely. Yeah, it is so hard. It is so hard. And there is a verse in the Bible that just really helped me. It's Psalms 34, 18. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. And I believe that he moves in close. And so if you seek him, if you will just it could be as easy as, I don't even know what to do, but I'm gonna come to you. You know, just open-handedly, God, I don't have answers. I'm so upset right now. Like this is not what I wanted for my life. And just bring all that to him. He can handle it. But friend, if you walk away, like you are now alone. And and the Lord wants to walk side by side with you and sometimes carrying you. And so I, for me, did not, I did not walk away. I sought him out, but it wasn't like everything was all tied up in a beautiful red bow. I was angry, all the stages. I was mad, I was sad, I didn't understand. You know, I had four other friends pregnant at the same time I was when I lost my baby. And none of them lost theirs. And I was like, again, that's a horrible thing to think that I would think to myself, but like, why me, God? Like, not that I want any of them to lose it, but you ask those hard questions and God's okay with it. And don't ever feel like you are not as strong in your faith by asking them. This is what deepens your faith. Your faith will be stronger because you ask the questions. If you just go, oh, I'm okay. I'm not gonna really like worry about it. I like you're not that first of all, that's not a response. I think. I think you have to either deal with it by either turning away or turning towards them and and going deep. And so that's what I would encourage some to do. So I did, I asked questions. I journaled, I love to journal, Greg. I'm a journaler. I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but I I just I let myself have my hand do the talking and I just it brings out what I'm thinking and feeling. I do prayers that way, I I study the Bible that way. And so I just hunkered down and had conversations with the Lord. And I I was not happy about what happened and and I let him go down. But I think it, I think it brought us closer. And so I I guess my I think so my let me say it this way. The the cover of my book is a tree with deep roots. And I think those roots grow deepest when we're in the middle of our heartbreaks. Because when things are going status quo and life is good, we don't seek the Lord the same way as in when we need him because we are we cannot get out of bed. We cannot do what, you know, we're such in grief. And that's when he shows up and the intimacy with the Lord deepens in such a beautiful way. Now, does that mean I didn't have questions? No, of course I had questions and doubts and anger, but uh, you bring it to the Lord.

Speaker 43:37

Well, uh, those are such good words, Jodi, because he is such a good father. And it's about a relationship. And in a relationship, it's a two-way conversation. And God loves our honesty because he already knows what we're thinking to begin with. He knows our thoughts before we ever even kind of can form them into words. And he loves it when we trust him enough to share what's on our hearts and what's on our minds, no matter how angry we are, no matter how hurt we are. And he will sit with us like that good friend that you talked about earlier. He's not judging us, he wants to help us walk through it, not by ourselves, but he'll he will go with us through it together. And the other half of that verse that you quoted a few minutes ago, Psalm 34, 18, is he saves those who are crushed in spirit. And when you've lost a child, you feel absolutely crushed. I mean, there's I I don't I don't know that there is a better word to describe how your soul feels, how your heart feels. You're just your whole being feels absolutely crushed. And God knows that. And as you said, if we will turn to him and give that to him, he'll help us through it and we don't have to do it alone. Because I I can tell you, I don't know how anybody could possibly even consider thinking that they could do this alone and come out the other side. We weren't designed to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 45:12

I don't know what I do without my faith.

Speaker 45:14

Me either. We weren't designed to.

Speaker 1 45:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, especially in loss. It was like, what am I supposed to do with this? You know, I had to seek him because I just was lost without him in my life. And so Yeah. My heart breaks to hear of people that just completely walk away from their faith through these hard trials. And I just I think that the Bible gives us a really beautiful way to do this. It's called lament. And, you know, the Psalms models it. David is showing us how to lament. But I think that people think, well, I'm I'm not supposed to complain. Well, it's holy complaining. Let's define it differently. It's saying, God, this is what I thought my life would look like, and this is what it actually looks like. And there's a gap. And so I need you to come in and help me figure out how to walk through this. And so you're sharing all of your frustrations, all of your hurts, all of your sorrows, but you don't stop there. It's just not complaining. You, you, there's always, and if you go to the Psalms, you'll see this, there's always a word that shifts it. It's but God, and then there's a promise. Exactly. Yet God, and there's a promise. So those words, yet, but add that to your journal. So I would journal, journal, journal, and then I would say, but God, I know you're close to the brokenhearted, or but God, I know you'll never leave me nor forsake me. That's in both the old and the new testament. So I would claim these verses as promises because it is hard. I I it sounds like I just, you know, I don't want anyone to think I'm not saying it. It is so hard, but this is why these are all modeled to us. And I just think that when you first have that rug pulled out from under you and you're in that season of just, I can barely get out of bed, I would say lament. Lament. It's the biblical way to take your thoughts to the Lord and ask him to and help you through it.

Speaker 46:49

I totally agree with you, Choti. And I've had a number of other guests, and we've talked about the value and the importance of lament as well. It speaks so clearly to God's heart that he would include that in scripture. That doesn't, it's not like, you know, you can't uh don't bring that to me. No, it's like he invites us to bring that to him. He wants to, he wants us to invite him into that equation because he knows that we weren't designed to carry it by ourselves, and he wants to be a part of that process. And when we invite him in to do that, it's not that the process becomes easy. That's not what we mean, but it becomes easier because you know it's like that you know the Bible talks about a s a cord of three strands.

Speaker 1 47:39

Yes.

Speaker 47:40

You know, when when we couple that those those strands together, they're much stronger than just one strand by itself.

Speaker 1 47:49

Yeah. And David was called the man after God's own heart. Absolutely. So this is because some people say, Well, my faith I must be wavering. No, your faith is not wavering. Your faith is being tested, your faith is actually strengthening as you wrestle. Like I think it's almost like a wrestling, you know, with the Lord of just and and you're gonna come out on the other side stronger in him if you turn to him and help and ask him to help you get through it.

Speaker 48:14

I totally agree. And I, you know, I would speak to that on a personal level that I I know that that my faith grew stronger. And uh on our grief journey after losing Ryan, I know that my relationship with the Lord became it just it changed in that it became more personal. And I experienced that you know in Psalm 23, I think it's in verse 3, it talks about how God restores my soul. And I experienced that because I felt like my soul had been broken after we lost Ryan. And I can remember being on uh on the treadmill here in our in our home, and interestingly enough, I was listening to uh John Ortberg, as you referenced a few minutes ago. Yes, and he he was they were the videos that went along with the book Soulkeeping. And I I love that book. Oh, it's an incredible book. And God used that book to really speak into my life. And though I guess it was probably close to the end of the first year after we had lost him. And I still, when I read that verse and he restores my soul, I remember being on that treadmill, watching the video of John Ortberg talking through some of those chapters of the book and just feeling like God had restored my soul. And it just was so personal and so intimate that here we are 10 years later, and it's still I can still feel that again when I talk about it.

Speaker 1 49:51

That's so beautiful.

Speaker 49:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:53

Oh, I love that. That book is powerful.

Speaker 49:55

Yeah, it is, it is. I would recommend that to anybody.

unknown 49:59

For sure.

Speaker 49:59

Jody, I do, before we go, I do want to take a few minutes and have you talk about, you've referenced it already, but talk about your book. It is called Depth, and I don't remember the subtitle, but you also have a podcast. And so I'd like for you to share that with our listeners because this is another resource for those who are listening. They can plug into your podcast and they can maybe they can get your book and read it.

Speaker 1 50:25

Yeah, so the title of the book is Depth Growing Through Heartbreak to Strength. And again, we grow so much through our heartbreaks. And so again, like I showed shared with you, this strength acrostic, I I I to three mini chapters under each heading. So there's eight letters in strength. So S is seek God and invite him into your pain. I feel like we've talked about that a lot today, but that's just that first step. And these are not linear. So, you know, you don't just do do, do, do, and check off each one and you're done. This is not how grief works, but it's it's a process. And so these are some of the steps that helped me, or the if I had to put them into a step, these are the things that I would say helped me. T is tearfully, tearfully allow yourself time to grieve and process the emotions. Again, they have to move through you. You know, so many, so many times you would just want to numb out or avoid them and find something else, like watch TV or, you know, avoid, avoid, but it we have to deal with them. And that's the sitting in the pain and the sitting with the sorrow and the anger and all just allowing the emotions to come through you. You can do that with a counselor, through a support group with time with God, journaling out on a walk with God. Everyone does it differently, but the emotion has to move through you. Now, those real quickly, I would say if anyone just got the news, this is where you would start. You know, this is where you begin. But the next part of the cross stick is for more perspective stuff for maybe someone that's been in grief a little longer. But I know you wanted to say something, Greg.

Speaker 51:43

No, no, no. I want you to continue on because I don't want to lose, I don't want our listeners to lose that continuity.

Speaker 1 51:48

Okay, okay, so the R is replace your finite view with God's infinite perspective. And I just want to tell a quick story if I have time, Greg. But I was reading, yeah, I was reading the Bible and I was looking at Paul's life. And he's such a pillar of our faith. But at one point in time, God had Paul end up in prison. And you know what? If I was Paul, I would probably question that. Like, God, I'm out speaking. I uh you've given me this voice to share. Like, why are you sidelining me? Right? He's he's asking why. But see, what Paul didn't know, and I still believe in my heart he did not know this after he passed, but he wrote letters during that time. So instead of saying, you know, God, you uh you have me in this place I don't want to be, I'm out. He said, Well, what would you like me to do? And he wrote letters and he wrote letters back to the churches he had been to. So to Philippi, he wrote Philippians. And all these things now are in the Bible. We have all these books in the Bible, but from from where Paul was in a place he didn't want to be. Like he wrote these books from prison. And so I want to say to someone right now, maybe you're in a place where you're like, I never thought I'd be here. I never thought that I'd be a parent who lost a child, who lost a baby. I don't know why God has me here. Well, what if that's gonna be your most impactful part of your life? Just like Paul, what if that very place where you're like, God, I don't know why you have me here becomes your most influential place, God uses you. Now that's a perspective piece, and that's not for someone that just got the the news. Right. Because that you can't, you can't even think that right now. But for someone that's years past it, I don't know where you are, you're still maybe wondering the why. What if you can just flip that to what if? What if God could use this in a way that I can't even imagine? See, Paul, I think Paul died on earth and never knew those letters became books of the Bible. I don't think he knew the impact he had. We all know, because we're now alive, still reading the books that Paul wrote, the letters, right? The books of the Bible, but he had an impact beyond his life. And we just don't know what God's gonna do with the circumstances in our life. So that's one of the chapters I talk about. It's just a perspective piece.

Speaker 53:46

I love that. And you and the important thing for us to remember is that we don't have to have that figured out. If we just give it to him, he's already got the plan and he knows what it's gonna look like, and he won't ask us to do it before he knows that we can are able to do it. And then he'll supply everything that we need. I mean, I can say that for a fact, having started a podcast, just like with you. Never in this.

Speaker 1 54:11

We just have to be open. Yeah, we just have to have open hands to say, God, how can you use it? So that's the R. E is embrace God's character development in the midst of the chaos because just like Greg and I both shared, God has changed us and molded us through this. I'm more empathetic now, more compassionate. I never could have entered into someone's pain the way I can now if I hadn't walked through loss after loss after loss. And that doesn't mean I'm happy I walked through the loss. That just means God's brought purpose to it. And so I never want someone to think I'm grateful for it. It's just I now see God didn't waste it. And so I want you to have that insight as well. And is never lose sight of God's grace. There is sometimes shame attached to the loss. So, you know, I don't know what the loss cause is, but you know what? If there's something that you feel shameful for, God does not want you to live shackled in shame. His grace covers everything. And so I give a lot in there about forgiveness. Uh, you know, sometimes there's just there's a lot that that goes into that. But I I just felt like I needed to have a chapter on that or a section.

Speaker 55:07

Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 55:08

But God, again, yeah, and being vulnerable and and maybe sharing, even though you feel like someone might do shame, that that's not what's gonna happen. They're gonna, when you're vulnerable with your story, they're gonna be vulnerable with their story. And it's gonna be a way to connect you. Vulnerability breeds connection. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 55:25

No, that's exactly where I was going with it, Jody. Yeah, you said it perfectly.

Speaker 1 55:29

Good. Okay, so now the G is give praise to God even as your heart breaks. And this is really hard. But there's something powerful about when we can thank Jesus in the middle of it, not because of it, but for the small, for the gift that someone brought, the the meal, or for the, I don't know what it is. And in the chapter, my favorite story in that chapter was I call it the gift of a day. And it was when my friend had cancer and God gave me this special day with her. I thought I was gonna take her kids out of the home and take them to a little trampoline park to give her a break, but she could not get out of bed and she needed me there. And we had this gift of time where I got to share everything I ever wanted to share with her. We planned her service, which is like the hardest thing ever to sit down with someone and pick out the songs and the scriptures, but it was this gift of a day. And I left there just thanking the Lord for extra time with her. I didn't thank her for thank the Lord that he was taking her home, but I thank the Lord for that time I had with her before she passed. Or I thank the Lord for those special little things.

Speaker 56:28

Yeah, that is that is so well said. And it's a choice that we have to make. You know, we don't, in the middle of that, you don't always feel like thanking the Lord or praising the Lord. But when we choose to do that, most of the time our feelings will follow. The emotions will go with that choice, but not precede it.

Speaker 1 56:52

And again, this is farther down in the acrostics. So I don't expect anyone to be at this place right when it happened. These again, when I when I share this, I don't want anyone to ever think I'm expecting you to do that right from the start. Again, S and T. Seek God and allow yourself time to grieve, that's where you start. But these are perspective pieces as we move forward. The second T is trust God is good when your mind is doubting and you don't understand. I think it's the hardest thing to trust the Lord when we don't understand. Like, why is this the plan, God? This is not what I wanted. And I talk about Joseph in that, in his life in the Bible. And I have a lot to say in there about just how to change from your why God to how. And then the last one, the H, honestly share your story and help another hurting heart. And this is when it comes full circle. When this grief and this loss, when you can use it to help someone else, you can see how God's redeeming it. That doesn't mean you're happy still that you had it happen in your life, but you can see his hands of redemption, of connecting you to someone else that you couldn't have been connected to before. But now that you've walked that same path they have, and I I would love to just share this, I'll tell share it real quick, but that story of what started my whole giving out the gift bags with the book and the CD is uh a year after the loss, a friend called me. Her name was Allison from college, and she said, There's a lady at my church who lost a baby 16 weeks pregnant, just like you, and we don't know what to do to encourage her. None of us have any words for her. Will you help? And I remember thinking, well, I don't even know what to say, but I will, I will, you know, share my story with her. Again, words of no one needs the other words. God will bring those in time. You just share your story. And I shared how God showed up for me, and that encouraged this woman. I sent that book to her, I sent the CD to her, and then Allison called three months later and said, I just got back from Clarissa's service for her son. So the only difference is she had a son and I had a daughter, but same lost, 16 weeks pregnant, and she said, they played the Glory Baby song. And as the pastor was about to start the song, he said, There's this woman that has been encouraging Clarissa. And Clarissa could not have gotten through this without her. And I, as Allison's sharing this with me, I'm sobbing because I realize I am the person the pastor was talking about. And I didn't do anything but open up and share my story. I didn't have words of wisdom. I hadn't walked through enough loss to have any pearls to give her, except this is how God met me in the middle of my pain. And that was such a powerful part of her story now. See, I think this is one of the ways God redeems it. I don't know why we walk through hard things. I don't know why we have to go through loss, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, he does not waste one tear. He does not waste one ounce of your pain. But see, he can't use it if you hold it really tight. He can't use it if you won't lay it at his feet and say, Lord, this isn't what I wanted for my life, but I know you have a plan and you can use it bigger than I can understand. So I surrender it to you and just be ready for a moment in time. It could be something big, like starting a podcast or something like that. It could just be one hurting heart that you go back and touch. And now I've reached out to Clarissa again when I was getting my book published. I wanted to use her real name. And so I tried to find her and I did connect with her. It's a beautiful story how we finally connect. And then she said to me, Jody, I now use that book and give it to other people. And see, she's now doing it and helping the next person behind her. It's a ripple effect. And you know what? You don't know how powerful that can be. People now beyond who I could reach are now being reached by Clarissa. People beyond what you can reach are now going to be reached because of you helping one hurting heart. And then that hurting heart goes and helps another hurting heart. And I don't know, Greg, I think it's one of the ways God redeems our pain.

Speaker 1:00:32

I love that. And when we're just when we let him use us that way by sh simply sharing a story, it's amazing how he can multiply that one little step of faith to affect the lives of so many other people who need a message of encouragement and hope as well. You know, it's it's it's just like how he multiplied the fish and the bread in the story of feeding the 5,000 and the 4,000. We just authentic kind of place sharing our story, what we walk through, what God did, how he helped us, how he entered into it with us. I think that offers so much encouragement and hope to other people.

Speaker 1 1:01:14

Yes.

Speaker 1:01:15

And then they in turn can do the same thing.

Speaker 1 1:01:18

Yeah, and that's what you do with your podcast, Greg. That's what you do. You have people come on and share their story, and that brings hope to someone else. And I do that on my podcast as well. I know you asked about the podcast. Yeah, tell us the name of it. Yeah, it's the same name. It's the tree with the with the deep roots. I love to talk about what if your greatest heartbreak catapults you to your greatest growth. I've seen that in my life. I've seen that in so many people. And so I have I one of my favorite things to do is read now. Again, that was all birthed out of the pain that I've walked through. I never was a reader before. Now I devour books like there's no tomorrow. So I have a lot of authors on with and they share their stories, but I also have other people on that just share their stories. So around Mother's Day, I do special mom stories and they share about the miscarriages they've walked through, or infant loss, or maybe adult loss, you know, what with a child, anything that has to do with a mom, you know. Sure. I have other stories throughout. And and and I had a friend who came on, and sadly her her son passed a suicide. So around the times of September when people do suicide awareness, I like to have some stories on that because everyone's story is a little different of what caused the loss, but we need to talk, we need to hear from other people that have walked through it. And she started a ministry where she helps other people that have children that uh passed by suicide. And so it's just an again, like God never wastes your pain if you give it to him. And so I have a lot of things on the podcast. I'd love people to go and check out. But really, my heart's to help those that are hurting. And so I that's one of the main things on the podcast. But there's other things too, like just, you know, things to build your depth in your faith with the Lord. So how to study the Bible, things like that. But I love, I love to help those hurting because we are stuck sometimes and we just don't know how to move forward. And so story is powerful. That's what it says in the Bible, that that Satan is going to be by the blood of the Lamb and by the power of our testimony, he's gonna be taken out. So we got to share our stories. We got to do it.

Speaker 1:03:04

Yep. And that allows sometimes other people have to, we're in a position where we have to borrow faith from somebody else because ours has just taken such a hit. And I think it's very obvious to our listeners listening to you that that you are in a different place now than you were back all those years ago when you suffered that loss. And we can see and hear what God's done and how He has given you hope and restored purpose and meaning in your life, and you can have that too. If you're listening today and you have no clue what God could possibly do with your loss and what good could possibly come of this. As Shodi has said over and over today, give it to the Lord, and he will redeem it for good. Might not be how we think about it, might not be how we think it's going to look, but he will, and it will bless other people as a result.

Speaker 1 1:04:04

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1:04:05

Thank you so much for giving us these glimpses into your grief journey and sharing with us what God has done in that restoration process of giving you this podcast where you encourage others and through this book that you've written. And if you guys, if you guys are so inclined, check out Jody's book. I'm sure it can be found on Amazon as well as all the other major book sites and listen into her podcast. I'm sure that you'll be encouraged.

Speaker 1 1:04:39

Thank you. Yeah, they can find everything at my website, which is jodysnowden.com, J O D I S N O W D O N dot com.

Speaker 1:04:48

Yeah, and I will uh if Jody will share it with me, I will include that link in her in her podcast description. So be on the lookout for that. And again, Jodi, thank you so much for being my guest today.

Speaker 1 1:05:01

Thank you for having me. I just loved our conversation.

Speaker 1:05:03

I enjoyed it immensely. Thank you.

Speaker 1 1:05:06

Thank you.