Remembering Micaela, with Doug Schneider, Micaela’s Dad

A father checks “Find My iPhone” and realizes the unthinkable might be true. From that moment, Doug Schneider’s world changes forever. Doug joins me, Greg Buffkin, to tell the story of his daughter Micaela, a recent college graduate who landed her dream job at Warner Brothers, loved adventure, and wanted to be a light for Jesus in the entertainment industry. What follows is an honest conversation about child loss, sudden tragedy, and what grief looks like when it moves from the pulpit into your own living room. 

We talk about the early days after the fatal car accident that took Micaela and her friend Olivia Johnson, including shock, denial, the physical toll of sorrow, and the haunting feeling that life keeps going while you cannot. Doug also shares why “healing” can feel like betrayal, why grief can be a sign of deep love, and how Christian hope is not pretending things are fine. We spend time on biblical lament, the kind of prayer that tells God the truth while still reaching for Him. 

You’ll also hear practical wisdom for supporting grieving parents, especially what to say instead of the loaded question “How are you doing?” Doug names the value of community, including the ongoing friendship with Olivia’s family, and he recommends resources that helped him and his wife: Heaven by Randy Alcorn, It’s Not Supposed To Be This Way by Lysa TerKeurst, Dark Clouds Deep Mercy, and the From Pain To Purpose podcast. If you’re navigating grief, walking with bereaved parents, or searching for Christian grief support and comfort in Jesus, this conversation offers language, faith, and steady next steps. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Story Setup

Speaker 1 0:48

Well, hi, I'm Greg Buffkin, and welcome back for another episode. Today you'll be hearing a conversation I recently had with Doug Schneider as he shares the story of losing his precious, beautiful daughter Micaela, in a tragic car accident on December the 28th, 2019, along with her dear friend Olivia Johnson. Micaela was a recent college graduate and in July of 2019 had begun her dream job as a marketing specialist at Warner Brothers in Burbank, California. She loved travel and adventure, but above all else, her Savior and friend Jesus Christ, more than a story of tragedy and loss, it's one of a father's love for his daughter and honoring her life and memory, as well as the story of how Jesus meets us in the storms of our lives, offering his presence, his comfort, and hope as he begins healing and restoring our brokenness. And now here's my conversation with Doug. Well, listen, at the top of uh of every episode, I always give my guests an opportunity just to share anything that they would likep about their personal life, Mary, you know, where you guys live, and that sort of thing. So I'm just gonna hand over the platform to you for a couple of minutes.

Speaker 3 2:14

All right, fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, Doug Schneider. Just real briefly, I came to Christ when I was 14 years old, grew up in a religious system, but didn't have a relationship with any value that I knew of at that time. Grew up with an alcoholic father. It's a story for another time. God redeemed that in some powerful ways. Been involved in full-time vocational ministry now for 34 plus years. My wife Jen and I have three children. Our youngest is two years out of college and working, and our middle son, our son, our only son, middle child is on staff for the ministry with crew up in Minnesota. And then our oldest daughter is the subject of our conversation today, Michaela. Yes. Thankful that because of the Lord's work in our life, we have a relationship with Jesus, and we know she did as well. And so we're confident of God's eternal purposes and his plan doesn't make any day easier.

Speaker 5 3:07

No.

Speaker 3 3:08

That's our our story. That's kind of our family. We live, I spent my wife is from California, southern Pasadena originally. They moved to Illinois in the in the in the worst time a person could move from LA to Illinois in 1979 during a massive snowstorm in January.

Speaker 1 3:22

Wow.

Speaker 3 3:22

That's where I was privileged to meet her several years later. And we lived in Illinois for many years and then came back up here in Wisconsin, not back, but to Wisconsin. We live in central Wisconsin. Now I've been here for about 17 years. And realizing that this is a we've neither one of us have lived any place longer than in our current home, which is in our in our mindset, uh, it doesn't seem real because it still seems like a much smaller segment of our life because we're older and it's a smaller percentage, but it's the longest lived anywhere. Central Wisconsin is home now. I'm a Bear fan from Chicago originally. For the first time in in in about two decades, I can, on the trivial side of things, smile amongst my peers who are all Packer fans.

Speaker 1 4:02

Ah, okay. Yeah, I was wondering how that worked out in Wisconsin with you being a Bears fan.

Speaker 3 4:08

Exactly. It's been rough, it's been the worst 17 years of the Bears' history, and I've been in southern Wisconsin for a while. And then our two oldest children chose to uh go to school in Minnesota, and I thought for a minute they might go to the the Wisconsin school, and I thought, well, I can root with my colleagues at least at college level, but we're I'm at odds with them for that too. So Coco Minnesota fans, and my daughter and son both went to you. Our youngest went to uh North Carolina State, so go Wolfpack. Oh, very nice. Uh a neighboring state of ours.

Speaker 1 4:40

Yes, indeed.

Speaker 3 4:41

So probably rivals with some of the South Carolina schools, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 4:44

Oh yeah, absolutely, with both University of South Carolina and Clemson. Clemson, yes, indeed.

Speaker 3 4:50

And I grew up kind of because uh you and I chatted because of our the time I spent in the Southeast. I've always had a fondness for the Southeast, and I was a uh kind of a quiet clo uh uh Clemson fan as a kid a lot too. A Closet Clemson fan. I say that now because it's my team now, but uh but I I I went to a school with the Wildcats as the mascot, and so the orange paw and and of Clemson and my fondness of South Carolina, I just always enjoyed rooting for them and still do when it doesn't interfere with my other allegiances.

Speaker 1 5:21

Oh of course, when it doesn't interfere. We'll take any kind of fans we can get. Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 5:31

Well, are you who who's your main team down there? Do you have different ones? I mean, are you a Clemson fan or do you care about football?

Speaker 1 5:37

I do, yeah. My wife and I both do. We we both grew up as fans of the Gamecock fans, University of South Carolina. Yep. But our daughter and her son, so our grandson, both are Clemson fans.

Speaker 5 5:55

Okay.

Speaker 1 5:56

So we have kind of a division during football season. Sure, sure. And our our grandson plays football for the high school that he that he attends. And so he has a he has a very vested stake in this because his his ambition is to play for Clemson one day.

Speaker 2 6:14

Wow. Wow, that's awesome. That's fun.

Speaker 1 6:17

But he's been sidelined currently by a torn meniscus that he had to have surgery for back in November. So he is still recovering from that, and we'll see if he's willing to go back on the line in September. Yeah. Big guy on the line. So is he alignment? Is that yeah, yeah, he's offensive line. So and he's he's a big boy. That's great. That's great.

Speaker 2 6:41

Yeah, that's wild.

Remembering Michaela’s Curiosity And Joy

Speaker 1 6:42

Yeah, it is. We love to watch him, but he only got to play one game this season before he got that injury. Yep. So he sat out the entire season. Hopefully he'll come back stronger. I hope he does. Well, listen, I would love for you to take a few minutes and tell us about your sweet, beautiful daughter, Michaela, that you mentioned a few minutes ago. And share a couple of memories, some of your favorite memories with her.

Speaker 3 7:10

Yeah, thank you. I I won't go through all the things Kronowski, but I will start with the greatest day of my life, apart from knowing Jesus and getting married, was literally the day she came into this world and she was born. And I'm not a person who likes to be woken up without good sleep, especially if I get into that sleep, but I couldn't wait every time I got woke up in the hospital to see them bring her back in when she was ready for changing or feeding was just an absolute joy. Yeah. I'm a little girl, she was an inquisitive little one. We'd take walks down our sidewalk when she was getting old enough to do that, and we had these little gray telephone poles. They were about two or three feet high that was like a hub for all the wires, I think. And they had numbers and letters on it, and she would stop at every one and put her finger on each letter, kind of like methodically she was doing something in her mind, and she never told me what she was doing. I don't know if she was counting out loud, but she was processing what those numbers and letters were for on those little boxes, and keep walking along, and we'd come to the next one, and she'd put her finger on each one little one, and I thought, that's just so unique. And around a corner on another spot, and she figured that's a good time for a rest. There was a little curb on the sidewalk. It's an old town with old houses where we lived in Illinois at the time, and it had used it has still had some of the horse hitches.

Speaker 1 8:23

Really?

Speaker 3 8:24

The old cement post with the rings on it for horse hitches. So it had these old curbs and things like that. And she'd stop, we'd come around a corner, and it was just the right height for her little two-year-old body, and she'd like, I'm gonna sit on this curb and rest. And so I'd stop and sit and rest with her, and every time she did it. So I just have sweet memories of her early years. And then older, that inquisitiveness continued. She looked at our lawnmower one time and said, Dad, how how does that cut grass? I mean, you push it back and forth. How does that cut grass? Just always asking good questions, and that never stopped, you know, until I mean literally the week before she passed away, we were sitting around the table and she would always preface everything with, I have a question. And then she would go into her question. And so it's just so fun to see that. Full of joy. Sweet memories as a kid. She was just always energetic, playful. She was a little leader. Times the only time we ever had trouble with her in school was if she was leading too much, being the teacher in the classroom. Kids what to do a little bit. She adjusted to that fine. But that initiative took took her right into the future where she just built good friends in every environment she went into. And she wanted to be a light, she wanted to make a difference. We know from her journaling that things that she had written in her journals about her personal pursuit with the Lord and asking the Lord, what's next? Where do you want me? Wrestling through job situations after she was graduating and pursuing her her dream job. She thought about medicine. She wanted to we went to Guatemala together on a medical mission trip. I think that was one of the sweetest moments to see her explore medicine. She was able to see me in my element and for her to post one time that what a joy it was for her to see her dad in his element, because that was an environment where I just thrived and loved it. Oh, wow. Didn't feel like dad to her uh necessarily. She didn't feel like daughter to me. She was able to be up here and do what she was doing, and I was able to do what I was doing, and we just had a sweet time together, and she discovered that it's not what she wanted to do. Wow.

Speaker 1 10:27

How old was she at the time, Doug?

Speaker 3 10:29

She was probably 19. Okay. And it was her first or second year. Her first year in the college. So she was back for winter break, and I was asked to go on the trip as a pastor and be the spiritual influence. And I knew that would be the first break she'd be back from school. And I guarded my time with her, and I thought, this is our oldest, she's the first one to leave the home. Really don't want to give up ten days of that time. And then if one she might want to come with, so I asked, Can I can she come with? And I said, She does have some interest in medicine. They love to bring young people along who were exploring medicine.

Speaker 5 11:07

Sure.

Speaker 3 11:08

She did. And we will forever have, even into eternity, have those memories. And that team is in Guatemala today as we speak. Ten years later, I think it is. Really? Yeah. They they continue to go. And some of those same people are on that trip. Facebook brought up a post, you know, of one I down there, and watching her explore that. So she then decided she wanted to go into the entertainment industry. And and somebody had asked her, one of her college ministry mentors asked her, Why do you want to go into the entertainment industry? And she said, I want to be a light in what is often a dark place.

Speaker 1 11:43

And what a perspective.

Speaker 3 11:45

Yeah. And and literally, her boss that she worked for, she ended up getting her sorry, she ended up getting her dream job at Warner Brothers. She worked in the commercial uh products division of Warner Brothers that does all the promotion for the stuff. She was working on the promotion for the Wonder Woman uh movie at the time. Wow. Delayed significantly because of COVID. And it wasn't the movie, the first one was, but she would do all of the commercial products promotion for that. She was working on a big inf with an influencer who was going to do a big promotion for that movie coming up. And and her boss just said she and her colleagues said she was such, they literally used that word, she was such a light around here. And they just missed her, still miss her. She had the privilege to do an internship with Universal Studios in Minneapolis prior to that. And I just got a post, an eye message from one of her colleagues that we haven't we we met shortly after Michaela passed, but she said, I just so enjoyed working with Michaela. She was such a light in our in our world, and literally used those words and thought, thank you, God, that you fulfilled in and through her what she felt she wanted to be and planting seeds for the Lord. Yeah. Can be important and life-changing in terms of the media and movies and all that stuff, but can also be dark and trivial.

Speaker 1 12:55

Yeah, very true. And I cannot imagine how proud you are of her. Yeah.

Speaker 3 13:00

We are. And and and uh as parents, we just knew we knew she was a gem, not perfect in any way, but we knew she was a gem. We loved her, she brought joy to us. But we didn't know until after her passing the depth of her engagement with every sphere of influence she had. I she just stepped into people's lives, took interest in them, wanted to get to know them, would sit down and want to have a cup of coffee. So to this date, when her birthday, her birthday was last week. She loved donuts, and she would have donuts instead of cake on her birthday. So we put out a post and call it Sprinkle Joy and say, grab a friend, grab a donut, and have a significant conversation.

Speaker 1 13:38

That's it. I love that. She sounds like an amazing young lady. So we're just so thankful for her for the time we had with her. Yeah, it it takes a while to get to to that, to be able to have that perspective after you lose a child, that your focus can can turn away from the loss to their life and and being and and having that that gratitude for the number of for the for the time that you had with her and the influence that she had in your you know in our own lives as parents. And then it's and how cool is it when we start hearing the impact that she had on the lives of other pe you know, of other people around her.

Speaker 4 14:24

Right, right.

Speaker 3 14:25

And and we're still thankful too. I think early on, we just so thankful for the people that God put in her world for her boss in in that world in in LA, moving out to big LA, what's that gonna be like? And for her boss to speak the way she did, and just for the way they it was very clear that they brought her in, that they saw in her her gifting, were willing to mentor her, but we're also willing to let her thrive. And uh you know, humbling words that her her boss, one of the first things she said is she was destined to be massively successful in the world's eyes, right? And we know that it's not about that, but it's right. Who is this kid? And and what kind of people has God put around her that would allow her. A lot of places want to put a ceiling on you, they want to, you know, territorialism. They let her thrive. And every one of them that I met, we had the privilege two years later because of COVID. We had a visit planned before Michaela died. And then when COVID hit, or when she died, obviously we we were do we even go out there. Well, we decided to go out anyway, we would meet her colleagues or roommates, and then COVID hit, and that was two years later. We finally what made the journey out to Southern California, see where she lived. Fortunately, our roommate was still in the same apartment, and to meet her colleagues, you know, tour of where her office was, and and just to see the way they gave her an opportunity. It was just such a blessing.

Speaker 1 15:44

I'm glad you guys yeah, we got it. I'm glad y'all got to do that.

Speaker 2 15:47

Yeah, it was powerful.

Speaker 4 15:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:50

Well, Doug, you know, going back um to uh to that accident that you mentioned a few minutes ago, that accident that that took Michaela and and Olivia happened just three days after Christmas. I remember having that conversation with you. Can we talk a little bit about what that those next few days and weeks were like for you guys? Because I think people that that are listening today may be still in that place where it it's that early season where they're still in shock and you wonder at that point if you're gonna be able to even survive it. And I know for you guys it's a little bit different because as a pastor, I'm sure that you had participated in in conducting funeral services. Probably uh you were probably involved in counseling people who had lost loved ones. But when it happens to us personally, it's very different, isn't it?

Speaker 4 16:59

It is.

Speaker 1 17:00

It is let's talk about how how did you guys walk through those first few days and weeks, Doug? What what was that like for y'all as a family?

Speaker 5 17:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:16

Obviously devastating.

Speaker 3 17:17

I mean shock. And and and uh a good friend, dear friend, brother, colleague that came along our side, he he said you were in you're in shock clearly when you called. And I, you know, my defensive nature wants to go, I I I don't think I was I I don't think I was in denial. Uh he actually used that word for a moment. There was a glimmer of there was a a moment when we knew the accident had happened. Um and but talking to the emergency services director, I actually was pursuing where Michaela was at. I saw her her her find my phone spot stop. I knew she might be traveling. I'm like, where's she at today? Is she is she back in Minneapolis yet? She was in northern Wisconsin. Phone was stopped on a highway. Without going into all the details on that, we started to pursue after a little while we didn't see a move and thought, okay, that could just be a glitch, but we'll pursue that. And when we did, and we finally made a call with the help of a friend that gave me the direct number to the dispatch up there because he was a sheriff's deputy in our county. We were pursuing, and and that's so different for so many people who don't don't have that opportunity.

Speaker 5 18:21

Yeah.

Speaker 3 18:22

Had we not had that that that forewarning, and and that that's a story too that we can maybe talk about, but but we were there was a prompting that caused me to look at my phone. Really? And you you were on the I uh you've met Karen McCord. Yes. And I have. I know Karen McCord because her daughter Carly died about five hours prior to Michaela.

Speaker 1 18:46

Oh my gosh, really that close. That close the same day.

Speaker 3 18:51

I I had we were preparing for some friends to come over for for dinner and some board games. I was working around the house getting stuff done. Took a little break. I was gonna sit down and watch the beginning of the LSU Oklahoma football game. I was gonna go to the health club and get a massage get a get a massage with the massage chair because I was cranking my back, fixing something in the basement. And then come back, shower, relax, and get ready to get ready to help host this family with my wife. She was getting some dinner stuff ready. And sat down to watch the game for 10 minutes, and then I was gonna go to a health club. And at the beginning of the game, about the first six minutes in, they started talking about the this tragic accident of a young reporter who died in a plane crash on the way to the game. Right. The father-in-law, I thought he was the father at first, but I then I clarified as a father-in-law. The father-in-law of Carly McCord was the offensive coordinator for LSU, and he was at the game, and everybody agreed, just stay there. There's nothing we can do. Stay there, do your thing, and uh we'll honor Carly. And I just started praying for them. I thought, this is this man's just lost his daughter-in-law, his son is grieving, there's a family that's lost their daughter, and I just started praying for them. Or minister to them, care for them. I can't I can't imagine losing your daughter. And then I thought, I wonder where Michaela is. She's traveling today. And I looked at my phone and saw that she was on a highway in northern Wisconsin. I looked five minutes later and it wasn't moving. Ten minutes later and it wasn't moving. Maybe a cellular glitch, but not too worried.

Speaker 4 20:12

But that began us pursuing, long story short.

Speaker 3 20:24

We're pretty sure that Michaela has passed away in an accident. It's not confirmed. I mean, it could have been. I was praying maybe she's stuck in traffic because of this. Of course. And it's somebody else. It's somebody else. I understand. This this vain hope that maybe it's not our car. Maybe it's not them. So when my uh my my colleague said I think you were in denial and shock, I I said, I I I just I don't feel that I was, but of course, there's all of that. And I I just knew that I couldn't say this is for sure because we didn't know it was. Right, right, right. In my heart, we did, but until everything gets sorted out, and there was this crazy accident in Indiana many, many years ago involving college students, and there was a misidentification of one of the people who had been deceased and one who wasn't. And the one who wasn't deceased was reported as deceased, and the one who did die was reported as having lived, and it was in the way. So that we knew that story, and I'm like, I can't share this, I can't talk about this. So we had that grieving and and we had this angst. And then in the ever when everything was finally, without going into all the detail, there's so much more there of the angst that we went through because our other two younger children were in Minneapolis at a conference that day. Michaela was going to see them that evening and talk to them and exchange cars before she flew back to California two days later. And so we knew that word was going to get out and we had to somehow notify our kids. There was just a whole bunch. I've been doing some writing about all of that, but just angst. And and and then when we knew and everything set settled in, it was just undescribed. Well, you you know it. Um do indescribable just fog and grief and pain that this happened, but it didn't really happen.

Speaker 1 22:13

It feels surreal, doesn't it?

Speaker 3 22:15

Yes, you know it does. I mean, I know I that's where I didn't think I was in denial. I know it happened, but every part of my being still wanted to say, but there's got to be a way to fix it. I can fix anything.

Speaker 1 22:24

I mean, yeah, we we want to reject that kind of information.

Speaker 3 22:29

Yes. Mechanically, I can fix anything. As a pastor, as a I I I I can walk through difficult situations with people. We could, we can, we can we can do this. I literally just had a conversation with a congregant who's you know struggling in their marriage. I'm like, there's hope we can work through this. There's there's no fixing a person who's passionate. I still wanted to go back. I wanted to prevent. I wanted to protect. Of course we did. How can we change this? No, we we this is as final as final has ever felt for me. And as you said, walking as a pastor, I've done funerals and services for everything you can name it, loss of children, unexpected death, expected death of dear old saints, just all kinds of things, siblings, tragic addictions, all kinds of stuff. And I'd already said goodbye to both of my parents. I I had and have eternal hope and communicated eternal hope in all of those things while hopefully still being able to empathize and care for the people who are in indescribable pain when they're walking through it. I hope I walk that line well to not trivialize their pain, but to also not leave them in despair. I believe with all my heart in the eternal promises of God and that life for the believer does not end in the grave.

Speaker 2 23:48

No, it does not.

When Healing Feels Like Betrayal

Speaker 3 23:50

And and I believe that and and spoke that with absolute confidence and deep empathy, but also joy. But when Michaela passed, it was so final and not the order that we would expect. And it was God, I need to know.

Speaker 2 24:10

I I need to know that you and your eternal promises are true. I need to know that. And so that began this journey, the last step seeking and searching. God, show me your presence, give me an awareness.

Speaker 1 24:26

It shakes you to the very core of who you are. And I know that from what you described, just uh you know, within the last couple of minutes, that you were acquainted with grief. Yeah, but you didn't know grief until you lost Michaela, did you?

Speaker 3 24:43

Not that way, right? I mean, my first experience was as an 11-year-old. My uncle was tragically murdered. I experienced my mom go through the deepest grief I've ever seen. I can still hear the the cries of desperation as if they were yesterday, that this didn't just happen. So I experienced that as a young child. I think I feared death. Some of that led up to my own seeking God. It's like, Lord's protect. My prayer was as a young child was keep us safe from death, physical death, keep us safe from death. I think that was ultimately answered in the spiritual realities, that the gift of eternal life that came through Christ. And that's how God ultimately kept us safe from death. But I didn't experience any close death for many, many years after that, physically. And so then, but the parents, but the grief I experienced with Michaela was so deep and so personal and so definitive. It's it's maybe you've experienced it too, but I just I remember one of the one of the crisis moments for me early that just my my head would physically hurt. It's like the the emotion's so strong and the inability to do anything is so strong that my head would physically hurt. And I thought, I I do not want my precious Michaela to become a memory.

unknown 25:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:55

Of course, memories. I want to hold on to those. But the thought that she was going to just be a memory in my lifelong, just a memory. I'm gonna look back to ten, it's now six years, ten years. Do you remember our daughter? Remember, we had this daughter. I the thought that she was a memory, relegated to a memory, was just devastating to me.

Speaker 1 26:14

It's a repulsive thought, isn't it?

Speaker 3 26:16

Yeah, yeah. What do I do with this God? How can this be? Tell me that she's still alive with you. Tell what how do I live into this? And and one of the struggles was I I I couldn't grasp what I was going through as a as a as a dad when they were, I told you, I mentioned the joy in the in the hospital room when she was born. Right. And this cute then we went through a mourning two days, a day or two before our son was born, our second child. We were so excited. And we didn't know if it was a boy or a girl. But I remember Jen and I, my wife just just crying and having a cry session that our sweet little trio of Doug and Jen and Michaela, this bond that we had, this was not, it wasn't going to be broken up, but it was going to be interrupted. It was going to be forever changed. And will we be able to handle and and take in and love another person the way we love this little Michaela? Can we? And so we went through a grieving process then of it's a change. So every phase, and then our third child came along, Madeline, precious gift from God, all of them. But at each different phase, they're now growing out of the cute phase. Now they're in the awkward, you know, seven, eight, ten-year-old phase.

Speaker 1 27:17

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 27:18

But at each phase that changed, we had his with this mourning, this I did at least, it was like, I want to hold on to I want to picture, I want to take pictures. And I think it's because somehow I want to grasp, I don't want to lose that moment. I don't want to ever forget that moment. I want to stay and bask in that moment. And I mourned each ending to the prior phase, but God always met me in there's going to be a new phase. Lean into that new phase. You're going to like this new phase. It's going to have challenges, but you're going to like this new phase as much as you like the other one. And it's going to be sweet and life-changing and powerful. And there's you hold on to that old, but you get to explore the new. And so I was always able to overcome the grief of leaving one phase of their childhood by leaning into the next one. And then when Michaela passed, I just, I didn't know what to do and I couldn't put words to it. And finally it was like, there's there's no next phase. There's there's there's no next phase in this lifetime. I have to sit in this until the Lord takes us, and I don't know when that will be. And and wrestle with what do I do now? Or there is a next phase, but I've never experienced yearning for it with somebody who's in eternity ahead of me like this, who's my daughter. And and and now I, you know, we as mom and dad, we lead the way in everything. She has now led the way into your glory and something that we all long for and hope for. But I I don't have that experience. And I don't have any way of communicating with her about it. We can't cali when she moved to California. What tell us about it? How is it? You know, we decided for her to fly out there. Yeah. And we we wrestled. That was a whole debate. Do I drive her out? She called, Dad, would you want to drive me out? I'm like, more than anything in the world, I would love to have that journey with you out to your first new professional job. That'd be so fun. But we processed it. We had a vacation plan with our youngest daughter and a friend that and new friends in Quebec at the same time. And like, that was when she had to be out there. But we also thought, what do we do with the car? Does she drive the current car she has out there, out there? Or do I drive her out and then she buys a new car out there? Does she buy a car here and we drive that out there and I fly back? No, we don't want to buy a car in the Midwest that's got rust. Let's buy a car in California that has no rust and has never seen snow or small. And and and so it all came down to she would fly out on her own with the few possessions she needed. She'd get a car out there, get established, and we would come a bit later and visit, which we had all planned to do. It was going to be five months, six months later, seven months later that we're going to fly out and see her. So we were looking forward to that. But in the meantime, we called. We didn't see her, but we called almost that, you know, her commute was beautiful. I it was a time because of the hour change where I was on my way to work. I had a little bit of time. She was driving to work. I could take a where I was I was at work, I could take a break in my office, and I could hear about everything new in her life. Tell me about California, tell me about Warner Brothers, tell me about your roommates, tell me about what you're experiencing. I can't call her. Jen can't call her. We can't call her and say, tell us about heaven.

Speaker 1 30:10

We can't do that. Right. And and it's also one of the things that that just compounds that is the suddenness of it all. Because one minute you she was here with you, yeah, separated by a little distance because of her trip, but she was still here with you. The next moment she wasn't anymore. And that's so difficult for our to wrap our brains around because it just it doesn't it doesn't compute. It just makes no sense whatsoever. And to be able to just to suddenly have a relationship that you've had for all those years to suddenly come to a an end in one moment in time, it's really hard to explain to other people the impact that that has, not just emotionally, but physically and mentally, spiritually. It calls into question everything that you ever knew. And the uh going back to something that you said uh a few minutes ago, you know, when when this happens, you know, we we we don't know how to start processing that aspect that you were talking about where uh the next phase of life.

unknown 31:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1 31:34

Because when you start thinking about what's the next phase of life bring, you feel like it's your thoughts are betraying your child. Yeah. You feel guilty about even thinking about a new phase of life. Right. I mean, did did you guys experience that? Absolutely.

Speaker 3 31:53

And and and and I mean God met us, He met us so many ways and so many gracious ways along the way, and we had good people around us, but but the reality is we still have to go through that. And we went through that, and it was it it was just the the the pain of knowing that it's over, knowing that we we can't fix it, we can't change it, this is permanent. Say what you just said again, because I I I talked myself right on my train of thought there for a second.

Speaker 1 32:25

Yeah, that I think um I think where where we were going with that was that when something like that happens so suddenly, you know, we just we're we just kind of go along every day on our routine and we you know, we just kind of think in terms of you know what's next in life.

Speaker 3 32:41

Yes. We have to get through this. We want to heal, we want to continue, especially as followers of Christ, we we want to be about the things that matter most to the Lord, but we're leaving our daughter behind. Right, exactly. And and and and and if I if I start feeling better, I mean every morning that the the next day was was was not great. It was we had to get to Minnesota and it was still raining and sleeting. It was an ice storm, basically, a snowstorm ice storm that came in early as our daughter and her friend were traveling from a cabin in northern Wisconsin back to Minneapolis. They this we knew the storm was coming, but they didn't know it was coming that early. And our two younger children were traveling that same morning from Wisconsin to Minneapolis, and we were praying and said, if it gets bad, pull over, get a hotel, we'll pay for whatever. Because we knew there was this rain gonna turn to freezing rain, gonna turn to snow, and they were heading to this conference. They got there safely. We were praying earnestly. I remember saying, Thank you, Jesus. It wasn't just Detroit, yeah, thank you for safety. It was thank you, Jesus, they're there safely. Because I've been on bad roads before with ice, and I don't, and they're they're terrifying. They got there safely. That storm moved in a little earlier, and our girls were traveling and they hit glare ice. We wanted to, we wanted to be able to move. So when we when all this settled in and we knew this was reality, we we knew we needed to heal, but we didn't want to leave our our our daughter behind. It felt like moving forward was leaving her behind. It felt like healing was losing that I love. And that's one of the things I've learned along the way. We've learned along the way, and I've heard others say the same thing, and I'm sure you probably experienced that. I I have told people prior to this, as you said, that that grief, that deep grief is a is a reflection, an indication, evidence of the depth of the love you have for somebody. Sometimes it's really not good relationships, and they're deep grief because of remorse or regret, but that is still part of the love. I regret that there was a division in a relationship because I love that. And I'm hurt because that relationship is fractured. So whether it's fractured or whether it's tight at the time of passing, that grief is an indication of the depth of our love. So if that grief is is subsides, does that mean my love is subsiding? And so there is this desire to want to lean in to the struggle and the pain and not let go of it because I felt like we were leaving our daughter behind.

Speaker 1 35:05

Yeah. I yeah, we experience that as well. It's it's a hard thing to deal with. And it's really hard to explain to somebody who hasn't lived it. But that's that's one of the things that is one of the benefits of being able to have somebody like that's gone through a similar experience in your life because they do understand. You don't have to explain it to them. And when something like that happens, that's the that's the kind of community that you need surrounding you. You know, we don't get to pick and choose always. But but I think that's why there's such a strong attraction when we meet somebody else who's lost a child. We innately know what they've been through. We know what they've felt, we know the kind of pain that they've dealt with and are dealing with. Uh, we know all those things about the guilt and leaving your child behind and moving forward and all of that stuff. And and only somebody who's been there can really relate to that.

Speaker 3 36:07

Yeah. And for folks, my heart breaks for people and my prayer for people is that they don't process this in isolation. And it's it's really hard not to because you have an undertow of grief that sucks your energy right out from you. You don't want to relate. That that's that's their part that I was going to. I think I was thinking about the accident. It was so the next day was a bad day as well, and the day after that was as beautiful and as sunny as it can be.

Speaker 2 36:34

Yeah.

Speaker 3 36:35

And it's up here in in in in in in in in in the winter, you can this the snow can be devastating when you're trying to travel through it. It's it's nerve-wracking, it's terrifying, everything of certainty. You don't know that you feel the road. It's it's horrible to have to travel. And in wisdom, we try not to do that, and obviously we can't always know what's going to come as we experience. But then you get this after you plow the snow, after you get the you have this beautiful, white, pristine, what the Bible describes, our sins are washed away white as snow. There's nothing that can visualize that more than the sun beaming down on a beautiful, fresh plane of white snow and a clean, a clean road that is now dry. And all that was tumultuous is now good, except for us it wasn't. The sun is beaming down, the white is as white as it can be, the roads are dry. We made it through this storm, but we didn't, our daughter didn't, and her friend Olivia didn't, and they won't be coming back. The relief of the of the ah, the storm has passed, this is beautiful, was just un that was was eroded by the pain.

Speaker 1 37:39

Your storm had just started.

Finding Community After Child Loss

Speaker 3 37:41

It just started, and nothing could fix that, nothing could change that. And and and it's just so, yeah, it's so deep and so so when when we we we try to get beyond it, it doesn't happen fast. And it it it causes that angst, causes that pain, causes that yearning to I need to know what to do. How do I process this? And coming alongside others is we had good friends that could just be there with us. And we had this unique situation because Olivia passed. We had to communicate with her parents. We had not my wife had met them briefly once. We heard they were believers. We knew we didn't we didn't know for sure. We had no idea what this conversation was going to be like. We felt horrible. Were they gonna be angry with us? They we found out we're concerned, were they gonna we're gonna be angry with them because of the trip they had the trip and they all made the decisions about when to travel and all that. God met us so graciously. We had a family to walk through with this. And and we've been friends ever we've met every year. We meet uh every year, we try to, and we we meet halfway at a town and we have a steak dinner together and and pray together. This year the weather was identical to the day they passed. So we just traveled. Yes, so we didn't get that. We will see them in a month or so. But that's been a gift from God to be able to walk through that with somebody to get point, you know. Unless you have that, uh, to be able to to walk with somebody who's grieving and to know that pain. And yeah, God's brought a lot of people in our life. We've we've since had a dear brother who lost their daughter one year before we lost our daughter. He was in our Bible study.

Speaker 2 39:17

So we walk through that with them, and then they walk through it with us, and their situation was since years, and then we've had two friends since we have walked through our situation to years, and as only God would have it in terms of the community. Michaela's birthday was January 6th. One of our dear friends that lost their son uh's birthday was January 7th, and the other dear friend that lost their son was January 8th.

Speaker 3 39:40

I mean, it's like we realized that this week.

Speaker 1 39:43

Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 39:44

One day after another, we're we're we're going through that second phase of grief on their birthday.

Speaker 2 39:49

Yeah, of course.

Grieving In Public As A Pastor

Speaker 1 39:52

Yeah. Yeah. Doug, there's something else that I wanted to explore and get your perspective on is that the fact that you're a pastor, you in some respects, you had you and your wife and your other children had to grieve in a bit of a a public way, as it were, because everybody knows. And you still you're still in that role as as pastor, and with that comes the role as counselor, and you wear a lot of hats, in other words. And people have a lot of expectations, sometimes unrealistic expectations. And so when something like this happens, most of us, we can be as personal and private with it as as we would like to when something like this happens. You guys didn't really have that luxury. So, how when you go through something like that and you have to do it in such a public way where people are always asking, you know, how you guys are doing, how's your wife doing? How are your other children doing? And you're having to answer those questions. And every time you do, it it brings back those, those feelings, those memories. And on top of that, as a pastor, I imagine that sometimes it's probably pretty difficult to develop really close personal relationships with with other people within your your church body simply because there's a fear of you know people feeling like you're you're playing, it's there's partiality involved. You're playing favorites and all that kind of thing. So I threw a lot out there, but I think you you understand where I'm going with that.

Speaker 4 41:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:41

And I think a lot of people don't appreciate what pastors and their families go through when they have a loss like this. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 4 41:51

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 3 41:54

One, we we we're blessed in a situation. I'm not one of the primary teaching pastors. I would teach or preach twice, four times a year at most. I serve an area of outreach and connections. So I have a lot of behind the scenes roles. On Sunday morning, I'm I'm there greeting, meeting people. I do a lot of midweek counseling, I do a lot of weddings, funerals, I lead teams of people. So I have a lot of people around and and and I am visible, but not in the same way that a lead pastor would be. So it's a little different. Plus, we have a team of people that can come around. So it my situation is a little different than somebody that they're a lead pastor, especially in a small church where every eye is on them for everything all the time.

Speaker 1 42:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3 42:32

That's a very difficult place to be. Uh it can be done well. I've seen pastors do that really well, and I pray for that because it's a hard thing. We have a team, so my situation's a little different. But the reality is, as it stands right now, I mean, even at that point, I was one of the tenured pastors that had been there for a long. So you're right, everybody knew. And people that I not yet know by name because we're a large church of about 1,500 people. There's people that I that I do not know by name. There's people that I never had seen, but had seen us and knew us, and they would say things to us. We had the gift of because I'm not in in the primary teaching role, we had the gift, they said to us, the accident happened three days after Christmas, we don't expect you, we don't expect to see you in your office until February. Most people, pastor or not, don't have that gift.

Speaker 5 43:19

You're right.

Speaker 3 43:20

And and my wife's work was able to offer the same thing basically. If you want to be in, if it's helpful for you, fine. But we're not expecting anything, no of that. So we had a great buffer. It was a super gift. And then even church, we didn't attend church for three weeks at least. And then we have two at the time we had two venues. We've expanded to a new bigger, larger auditorium, but we had two venues, and so we would come in to the early service at three weeks afterwards. We snuck in late, and one of our pastors was just kind of even even a buffer just to give us that room because it's it's not that we didn't want to talk to people, we wanted to, but we couldn't yet. And it was just way overwhelming. And so we we could walk in the last few seconds as the service was starting, sit in the back, and we could walk out before the crowds came around. And we could start soaking in, taking in that a little bit. And so we've learned too to be able to do that for others. So we had that, but to your point, six years later, I have to let my wife know if I'm doing announcements. And sometimes she's able to be there and sometimes she's not. She says, I can't go with you, honey. Really, why not? Because every time you're up there, everybody's thinking about our situation. They know. And I think they don't, they're not all. And she's right, they do know. And when they see me, they're thinking, How are they doing? You know, for us, even if work through it, I may not even be thinking about it, but rarely is there a moment I'm in front of our congregation having just worshiped or being prepared to worship where I'm Not thinking about eternal things because that's a that's one of the tragic and yet beautiful gifts that God gives us. You know, the the the the the the bringing together of heaven and earth that that we are not separate the way we thought. I not the way I thought we were, at least. And I could allow it to be separate. I I need to know that Michaela's alive with you and God is gracious. She's shown us that in so many ways that that heaven and earth are not nearly as apart as we think they are. It's not someday, maybe. It's she's still alive now, and God is doing stuff now. So I'm aware of those things when I go before people, but not always acutely. I'm not always thinking I'm standing before people and I lost our daughter six years ago, and they all know it. I'm not thinking that at all, many cases. But Jen knows, my wife knows that because we've processed through it for six years, for them, they might not see me but once a month when I do when I'm up front. We rotate who does announcements. They may not have a chance to talk with us. Every time they see us, that's the pastor and his dear wife who lost their daughter, especially around Christmas time. So she knows that all eyes are on us. And that weight that's really hard to carry, she's carried it really well. By God's grace, I think I've carried it okay, but it still has an undertone. And and um people desperately want to know how we're doing, and they want to ask us how we're doing, and we want them to ask us how we're doing, but we at the same time we don't.

Speaker 1 46:11

It's a quandary because you know it's what you described is so accurate. You want them to, but sometimes you don't want them to. And you're afraid people are gonna forget. And that's one of your greatest fears is that people will forget Michaela. Yeah, people will forget Ryan and you know, that they ever lived. And then sometimes you feel like you're, you know, you walk into a room and you feel like people are thinking, yeah, th that's the couple that lost their son. That's the couple that lost their daughter. And you you're right, you kind of feel like you're there the spotlight's on you, even though it may very well not be. But yeah, you carry that. And 10 years later, Kathy, my wife, still struggles with in in certain situations because of that.

Speaker 3 46:57

Yeah, yeah. And I have to remind myself as I remind others going through that. It's I know that I have I have done a funeral for a family. I have met, you know, in emotionally with families and walked through with them. Three months later, I might see a member of that family in the foyer, the closest one to and may not have any thought of their loss. And and and and and they can be offended by that. But at the same time, if I say, How are you doing? I've learned because of my my colleague David, he's really blessed us. He he walked through us personally deeply through this whole thing. We had one gal who lost her husband, and and and he would say, It's really good to see you to her, to her, to the surviving spouse, to the widow. And she'd said, Thank you for saying that. Thank you for not asking me how I'm doing. Because how do you think I'm doing? You know, and and she goes, You didn't do that. So many people do that. You know, how do you answer how you doing? I'm I'm I'm horrible or I'm I'm good and I don't care that my dad passed. How do you answer that? I if I'm good, I still care that my passed. If I'm not good, I'm miserable. What do you think?

Speaker 1 48:02

I'm so glad you said that, because that represents all of us, Doug. You know, that's one question I would say to those who are listening who haven't lost a child, but you know somebody who has, please don't ask them how they're doing. You can even rephrase it. How are you holding up?

Speaker 3 48:19

Exactly. How are you processing this? Yeah. What's been encouraging you in the journey? What's been challenging, maybe those things, but how you and and then just that simple, it's good to see you. Yeah. Is is I I and I've learned to do that because of David's influence and through my grief and but with others to it's really good to see you. I'm glad you're here today. Thanks God for that.

Speaker 1 48:41

The fact that that they noticed that they thought about it, and they asked you just to let you know that they were thinking about you. That's the important part.

Speaker 3 48:53

And and then to extend grace because I know and and my role is unique in some ways, and I never wanted to be an excuse. I always work to try to get in the moment. But the reality is I I can meet somebody that's gone through grief, I can walk through them, and then I can forget all about it. So my prayers, God, keep them on my mind and remind me. But I hope they give me grace when I forget. And sometimes that happens. I'm like, yeah, I'm just now thinking about the fact that you're still walking through this. And I have to say that because it's difficult. And so when people come to me or my wife and they're talking, there's times when it's clear that they aren't even remembering we had a dagger. Yeah. And I have I have to then extend grace. Yeah, you you do. Hey, they they they have their world, and I understand that they don't aren't thinking about Michaela right now. And they might even be talking about some accent or something, or the roads are horrible today. I hope someone they're not aware of put a dagger in my heart, but I also feel that with God's grace going, yep, that that doesn't change the reality. God is still good. They didn't mean to hurt me.

Speaker 1 49:59

Yeah, and and and we have to remember too that you know sometimes we we think, golly, I wish that they could just understand. But when you really expand that out and realize that what that would mean is that they would have to have experienced it. And we don't want anybody else to experience that.

Speaker 2 50:20

We don't. We don't.

Speaker 1 50:21

So yes, we do have to, we have to extend grace. It took a long time to get there for us to be able to extend grace, excuse me, instead of getting upset with people or instead of resenting something that they said carelessly, you know, not not intentionally hurtful, but it was. But God is so good to help us along that healing process to get to a place where we can do that because we know that, you know, they like you said, they're not consciously aware all the time that that we lost our child, you know, when they stop and think about it, of course. But you know, it we think about it all the time. There's not a day that goes by that we don't think about our child. And sometimes we, you know, we think that other people should too, but as you said, their lives continue on as on the course that it was on before we lost our child.

Speaker 3 51:21

Yeah, yeah. And to be able to just lean into their life and what God's doing in their world. And as as as Paul admonishes us in Romans, I believe Romans, I'm losing the all don't think too highly of yourself.

Speaker 5 51:35

Yeah.

Speaker 3 51:35

Uh be thinking put others before you. Right. And it's like, yeah, how do I put somebody else before me right now, especially when I know early on I'm the I they know I'm going early on, everybody knew. But how do I enter into their world right now? And and let them minister to me if they want to, but be also conscious. And it was really hard early on. If somebody else went through tragic grief soon after we lost Michaela, there was this strange they can't do that. I don't that takes attention away from me. I need feelings. And now I'm supposed to care about them, and others are gonna be careful. The focus is coming off of my need. I'm still bleeding here. And and it was like, God give me the strength because their pain is just as real. Yeah, exactly. And I need to ask their pain now. I need to love and walk with them through their pain while I still receive others coming into my pain and dealing with that.

Books And Practices That Help

Speaker 1 52:25

Yeah, that was a challenging. It is a challenge. And but you know, it God uses that as a part of our healing process too. When we've when we finally get to that place where we can speak into the life of somebody else who's who is now right where we were six years ago or 10 years ago, and come alongside them because we understand what they're going through. It does help us as well as helping them. But you don't get there immediately. That's that's a process, and you know, be patient with yourself if that's you today. Nobody expects you to be able to do that today. It is a process. Lean into the Lord and give it to Him and ask Him, ask Him to take what you have experienced and use it for good. Use my pain for a purpose. And He will. He will. Doug, let me ask you one last question before we go. As you look back over the last six years, for somebody who's listening today who's in an earlier season of their grief journey, what are some things that, as you look back on them, helped you and your wife in that recovery process, in that healing process? Were there any resources that you discovered that that you could share with somebody else today?

Speaker 3 53:52

Yeah, yeah, for sure. We had my wife did a lot of reading early on. She was able to do that. I was not I could read books. One one book, and this is part of the craziness of our story. My wife had already read a book called It's Not Supposed to Be This Way by Lisa Turkhurst, dealing with all kinds of other pain and relational pain. She had read that. My daughter said, Could I read that? She had lent it to our daughter. It was in the automobile. Amongst the recovered stuff, she was taking it back to California with her. Amongst the recovered stuff, this book that was broken, the binding was somewhat broken, but still intact, completely intact, but broken, clearly been in an accident. And here's this title, it's not supposed to be this way. I thought, boy, boy, it is not supposed to be this way. At least in our economy, right? In God's economy. Yeah. And how do we wrestle that? So she had already read that. I dug into that. I read that. Obviously, I'm like, how do I not read this book now? And it wasn't dealing with personal loss of a child. We had somebody hand us Randy Alcorn's book, Heaven. What a gift. I'd heard about it. Our pastor actually just preached on it. The last regular Sunday service that Michaela heard with us in church was on heaven. It was the Sunday before Christmas Eve because she was in town for us. That book was on heaven. So we've read through that. That was such a beautiful gift to be focusing on the reality of eternity. We had came, my wife had come across a podcast too, From Pain to Purpose. Yeah. Davy Blackburn. Davy Blackburn. She had started to listen to that prior to Michaela's passing. And of course, we've dove into that. We've had the privilege, we were at a seminar in in Wheaton, Illinois. We met Aubrey, who's the co-host of that. Yes. And um, so we we've been listening to that. That's been feeding our soul quite a bit. I personally, and my another book I did not read, I listened to the podcast. My wife read Dark Clouds Deep Mercy. And I like that on the name. Great book. Uh, she's read it. I've heard it quoted many times. There was one piece in there that really helped me on lament. And the piece that I heard on the podcast is uh as followers of Christ, we are still going to grieve, as Paul says in the last Thessalonians, we're not going to grieve as those who have no hope. Yes. Like David in the Psalms, we are going to grieve. But the difference between grief and lament is that we grieve with that eternal hope. We might be shaking our fist at God, we might be screaming at Him, but in the end, even as a psalmist, but yet you are God. I don't understand. Help me understand. This hurts so bad. It doesn't make any sense. And yet you were God. And so we grieve and we feel all of that, but we feel that with that, that, that hope of, I'm not in control, God. I do trust that you are. And that's biblical lament, is that grief combined with hope. That's been helpful. And that was Dark Cloud's Deep Mercy. Jenna's read a lot of books on on from people who specifically lost children. I chose not to do that for me. So that was real helpful for her. For me, I need and wanted to process this deeply and personally with the Lord. Not that others who read don't.

Speaker 5 56:53

That's my wife's process.

Speaker 3 56:55

But I want to process internally. I don't, I want to, I want to explore the depths of my heart and the feelings and the questions and the angst that I have with God. And so I didn't want to read somebody else's story until I could put my own processing down on paper. And I'm still doing that. I I still haven't specifically read books on with those who I've heard tidbits and things, but I've read other general grief stuff, this podcast, David Blackburn. Sometimes if it's very specific, gentlemen warn me. Yeah, you might not want to listen to this. I said, no, I don't, because I want to process that my own. And I shared that with Aubrey Samson. I said, I I I I I I tune out the ones that are directly related because I need to process my own grief of losing a child. And I'm writing that out. I don't want I don't want to rob my own processing with somebody else by hearing somebody else's thoughts before I'm able to do that. So that's been my system, right?

Lament And Noticing God’s Presence

Speaker 1 57:47

I get that. That makes perfect sense to me. And you know, interestingly enough, I had Aubrey as a guest last year, and she talked, she talked about the importance uh and the the benefits of lament uh because it's something that has I mean, it's just kind of doesn't really have much of a place in our culture, but it is very important, and it can really be beneficial when we're going through these these kinds of storms.

Speaker 3 58:15

Yeah, the the the gift of the loss of our daughter, if I can say it that way, is number one, the know that she's still alive with him.

Speaker 1 58:24

Yes.

Speaker 3 58:25

And God has shown He He's affirmed that in ways he didn't have to, but He's affirmed that in ridiculous ways. I could talk for two more hours about how He's but the gift is this desperation, this intimacy that God has given me with Him as I've run to Him, not away from Him, and said, God, I need to know. He's not afraid of my questions and He's shown me that. There's times I'm like, I've asked you this so many times, but I still I need to know again. I need to be make me more aware of your presence today. Help me, Lord, to uh uh increase my awareness of the reality of heaven, that Michaela is alive with you, that you are alive and engaged and aware of what's going on in my world. And he has done that in so many ridiculous ways. And I wrestle with am I testing, am I testing God? And he's like, No, you're not testing me, you're seeking me. And he's showing me in crazy ways. And I'll just share one right now. It was just the other day. This is a simple little thing. I journaled in my journal, Lord, take my wife by the hand today. I have never prayed that phrase, or I prayed for my wife in lots of ways. I've never prayed that phrase, take my wife by the hand today. Before I've never, and I wrote that in my journal. And then in my reading, I'm going through the Psalms. I've gone through the Psalms, I'm doing lots of other reading and listening as a pastor's story, but I'm meditating on the Psalms, and I'm going the psalm that I read that morning, immediately after I did all that, having not memorized that psalm, I still don't even know what Psalm it is. I kind of look back in my mind, I'd have to look back in my journal. I don't memorize that. It's not a passage I've ever held on to in my life before. I wrote Lord, please take my wife by the hand today. And then I read in the psalm, God will take you by his right hand. And God really says he knows every one of us thoughts when it comes to our tongue, right? In Psalm 139, he knew my thought before it came to my tongue. He he had me express that thought at that moment in my journal before I was reminded by his word that he is intimately engaged in every thought and every detail of my life.

Speaker 1 1:00:26

Don't you love when he does that?

Speaker 3 1:00:28

Yeah. And I I I wouldn't change a thing knowing that Michaela's with him and the intimacy and knowing that she's better off than we are, but we're we're gonna be together again. And the intimacy we have with God as we end in to him is palpable and powerful. But it doesn't stop. I have to keep yearning for. So, like, God, are you gonna keep doing that? You you're you're with me every day, right? Keep showing me, keep showing me, keep showing me, keep my heart learning and seeing you.

Closing Hope And Final Thanks

Speaker 1 1:00:55

Yes, absolutely. Man, those are such good words. Doug, I think you and I could probably sit here and talk for another couple of hours quite easily, and then still would be difficult to stop. So I just want to thank you for carving time out of your schedule to come and be our guest today and to share your story about your sweet daughter, Michaela, and the journey that you guys have been on, and for giving us a look inside of how God has brought you guys through such an awful storm to the place where you are now where you you you have meaning and purpose and you live with that certain hope that you're going to be with Michaela again one day in heaven.

unknown 1:01:40

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:01:41

Thank you. It's been a joy to get to know you again, sad for the reason, but again, one of the gifts of God. Absolutely. It matters because God in eternity is real, and I've been holding on to that with a fervency, a desperation, and a fervency and a joy. Yes. I I didn't I let this hang at the beginning, but for what it's worth, and this isn't everybody's story, so I hesitate to share things that my story is not other people's stories, and other people's stories are not my story. And God is not going to do for me what he's done for others, and he's not always gonna do for others what he does for me, but he will meet every single one of us in his own way. Yes, he promises that. And and the moment I looked at my phone to see where Michaela was, when I heard of the story of Carly McCowert, in hindsight, that was the moment she died. The emergency call came in about 30 seconds after that moment. And in his graciousness, I wrestled with God, you knew this was gonna happen and you allowed it. And you love me still, and you love her. And that's a God I want to keep pursuing. That's a God I want to keep pursuing.

Speaker 1 1:02:49

What an incredible message, and what an incredible way to to end this podcast. Doug, thank you so very much. Thank you for for sharing your faith. Thank you for sharing so much about your relationship with the Lord today and and what he's done and what he offers all of us. Thank you.