Cultivating a Grief Garden with Ron & Nan Deal, Connor’s parents

A sudden illness can take a child in days, but the grief can echo for decades and it changes far more than most people realize. I’m joined by Ron and Nan Deal as they share the story of losing their 12-year-old son, Connor, and what 17 years of child loss grief has taught them about love, memory, triggers, and the hard work of continuing to live.

We talk about a mom’s experience of loss, including the moment Nan describes leaving the hospital and feeling like she’s losing part of herself. We also get painfully practical about grief triggers, why “sweet without bitter” becomes a normal tension, and how grief intensity can shift over time without ever fully ending. If you’re a bereaved parent, or you love someone who is, you’ll hear language that makes the invisible parts of grief easier to name.

Then we go straight at marriage after the death of a child: the scary divorce statistic people repeat, what the actual research suggests, and how couples can protect their connection when one spouse needs words and the other needs quiet. We also discuss surviving siblings, fear and hypervigilance, and why honesty at home matters more than pretending to be strong. Ron and Nan share two memorable tools: protecting a “grief garden” with healthy boundaries, and “grieving between the rails” where sadness and hope run parallel, just like biblical lament. We end with the Scriptures they’ve clung to, including Proverbs 3:5–6 and the raw honesty of Psalm 22.

I’ll include the Focus on the Family video link they reference in the episode notes. If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs language for their pain, and leave a review so more grieving families can find it.

Click the link below to view Ron and Nan’s Focus on the Family video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC0xmKjccs

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Transcript

Welcome And Why This Story

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Well, hi, and welcome back. I'm Greg Bufkin, and on today's episode, you'll be hearing a conversation I had with Ron and Nan Deal. Now, if you're a regular listener, you might remember a conversation I had earlier this year with Ron as he shared the story of losing their 12-year-old son Connor to a tragic and unexpected illness several years ago. Today you'll hear from Nan and the impact of losing Connor in her life. And Ron and Nan will also discuss how the death of a child impacts a parent's relationship with other surviving children, how it affects family dynamics in general, and also how it affects our marriage relationships. Our conversation will also offer some helpful and healthy ways to process and manage our grief. And finally, you'll hear about how God meets us in our deepest pain and brokenness, lovingly begins healing these broken pieces, and restores hope, meaning, and purpose to our lives. And now here's my conversation with Ron and Nan. Well, Ron and Nan, welcome to our podcast. It's really great to have you guys with us today. We appreciate the invitation. It's good to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, absolutely. My privilege. Well, for our listeners, if you're a regular, you probably remember a few months ago Ron and I had a conversation. And unfortunately, Nan was unable to join us that day, so I've asked them back. And we'll be talking again today about the journey that they've been on since losing their 12-year-old son Connor a few years ago to a sudden unexpected illness. And one of the things I would like to do is to get a mom's perspective here because we heard from Ron as a dad. But before we do that, I would like for you guys just to take a couple of minutes, if you if you would like to, and share anything personal about your family, the kind of work that you do. You guys are involved in a lot of things. So just whatever you would like to share with with our listeners would be great.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Well, I'd love to share my family. We have three amazing sons. We have a beautiful daughter-in-law, and we now have a 19-month-old grandson.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yes, that's a new phase for us. And our oldest son is Braden. Our daughter-in-law is Liz. Our youngest son is Brennan. And as you mentioned, our middle son Connor is waiting on us in heaven. So we I like to talk about all three of them still. And we live in Little Rock, Arkansas. I'm retired from teaching. I taught for 25 years. Kindergarten early childhood is my degree. And I am working part-time at an upscale resale shop that gives back to community, our community. And Ron

Meet Ron And Nan Deal

SPEAKER_02 3:55

and I have started traveling quite a bit, doing marriage conferences, and you know, we're empty nest and we're grandparents now, and we're just in a sweet season, but it's become a kind of busy season too with travel.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So there's really three things that we're really invested in. We've been married for 40 years, been in ministry for one form or another for 38 of those 40 years. And the vast majority of our time has been spent in marriage and family ministry, some in local churches and the last 20 years working in freelance and nonprofits. I work I work for Family Life, which is a international marriage and family ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. And I specialize in blended family education and training, which of course includes loss and on many levels. And also marriage enrichment. Our latest book that Nan and I wrote together is called The Mindful Marriage. And we do have a little piece in there about grief and our journey, and it's really our testimony of and things we've learned along the way that is making a difference for us and others. And we're doing a marriage conference around that as well, the mindful marriage conference. One last thing I'll mention is she mentioned our grandson. Our son and daughter-in-law were very gracious and kind to give our grandson Connor's middle name.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

And you know, we find that to be sweet bitter. Yeah, of course. Which is always the case with everything. I was thinking about this the other day. There is no sweet without bitter after you've gone through child loss. Because even the even the things in life that make you smile are have an element to them that something is missing, or I wish, or the the, oh, but it would be this if Connor were here. And you know, there there really isn't sweet without bitter. I I just don't know how else to say that. And so as much as we love that Austin has Connor's middle name, it just makes us sad that we even have to do that, you know. I know.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

You know, and that day when Ron and I were there, our daughter-in-law's parents were there, and our youngest son was there when he was born. We were all there. And Braden brought us back, and they didn't tell us. They didn't tell us his name. They didn't tell, they didn't tell us anything. And it was a gift and a surprise. And I remember our youngest son finding out about it, and he said, Well, I wanted to use Connor's name. And Braden looked right at him and said, Well, you can. And I was really overwhelmed by that with both my boys, that that would be something profound in them that they'd wanted to do, that they'd even thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Wow. That speaks so so deeply to the to the love that they shared. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

And you know, it's probably relevant that we say this is 17 years. Well, Austin was born 16 years after Connor passed away. We're now sitting here recording this with you 17 years after our son passed away. We we how do I say this? We have the benefit of a lot of years of experience, and grief evolves and changes, its expression changes, its form changes, its intensity changes. And we are not done grieving, for sure. No, you're not. But we also know that we're not grieving as intensely as we did in the beginning. And so when this happened with our grandson, we had the blessing of some years that had passed.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Honestly, you know, had this happened in the first decade, I don't know how we would have taken it. I don't know that we would have liked it. There might have been something to it that felt wrong, more so than it does now. I mean, I mentioned that for your for your listeners just to say make the point that boy, are there things that you don't like that someday you may be okay with.

unknown 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Not that you're thrilled about. But as the journey evolves and changes, so does your experience of of certain events or relationships.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, that's very true. And I think it's important that you said a m a moment ago that even though you're still grieving, the grief journey really never ends. That's right. But it's important for people who are in that early season of their grief journey to understand that the intensity does go down over time.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yes, there there may be days, there may be triggers where it becomes very intense again suddenly. But but generally only momentarily. Right. Whereas in the early days, the intensity stayed at a high level most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

We just want people to understand that you know, just just take it one day at a time, allow yourself to grieve, and one day you'll be able to look back as Ron and Nan have shared, and you'll see that the intensity has gone down. And it will continue and it will continue to. So that's that's encouraging for people to hear. And I think that's important. So thanks for sharing that. Nan, I would really like for you as a mm-hmm to share your perspective. What the impact was of losing your precious son at 12 years of age. And when our kids are that age, we think we're gonna have them for the rest of our lives. Right. We don't think about losing them. You know, we have plans. They have plans. And when when we suddenly lose them like that, I mean it just sends our world spiraling.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Talk about that from a mom's perspective.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Well, my boys, I always call them my stair steps, and I also would articulate that they were day, night, and dusk. So they were different, different, and different, you know, which I was

A Mom Describes The Loss

SPEAKER_02 9:56

a challenge, but I enjoyed that. I had two introverted children, and I had an extrovert at the end there. And so, and I had two that were very artsy and creative, and then a sports kid. So I kind of ran the gamut with the boys, but I really I loved being a teacher of littles, and I loved being a mom. I loved being a mom. I stayed at home for five years, and then the boys and I went on to school together. And it was just a blessing to be able to. I love the things they loved. I love children's literature, reading books with them, watching movies with them. I love fiction, I love fantasy, I love living in that kind of a world. And so being able to share those things with them, and they loved that. So having two artsy kids, that was really fun. Connor, if you looked at our family at the time, the five of us, Braden and Brennan would kind of side with Ron as far as like if we were gonna decide where we were gonna go for pizza, where we're gonna get a movie. And Connor always took my sides.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

It was and not that And since Nan counts for like five people in our family, yeah, of course. It was always balanced. We always had it figured out.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

But he really was in tune with me. He actually really was very in tune with me emotionally, and it's funny, I would go get my hair done and he'd be the first to compliment me. If I if I changed anything about my appearance or something that I was wearing, he was always the first to compliment, even before my husband's at the time, I know at the time I was doing community theater, and I was in a musical, and uh Connor ran lines with me, and he begged to be at almost every show. And when I get done, he'd say you were the best one up there. I mean, he was my big biggest cheerleader, and we really bonded over things. And um yes, we were in a sweet season. They were 14, 12, and 10. And so no one really had teenagery angst yet.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

It was just a sweet season. Does that make sense? And I really It does, you know, and I was toting them around. No one was driving yet, so I was still driving them to everything, and I had that time in the car, and you know, I just I loved my job as their mom. I loved uh being a part of who they were and figuring out their gifts and talents and encouraging that in them. And so, you know, this unexpected illness, and really the whole 10 days, I really had the perspective of we're getting them him the help he needs at this hospital. Then we a bed opened up at children's hospital, we're getting the help he needs. He's on everything he needs. We were in ministry, so people have come to pray and lay hands. We are doing all the things. And I honestly, in my mind, could not see the outcome. So when it happened, I just felt like the wind had gotten knocked out of me.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

And honestly, that day I couldn't let go. It was very hard leaving him at the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

I felt as if I was losing myself. And I it was profound walking out of that doorway. I mean, I can go back there immediately, and I felt like I was going to lose touch with reality. It ripped into my soul. I wasn't done. I didn't know how to let leave a child. It was just it's so hard to explain, and yet I know you understand this. It was very profound emotionally, spiritually, and physically for me. It took on a real heaviness.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. From a husband's perspective, watching my wife go through this, I can say I understand at that level. I love hearing a talk about her boy. We have so many similarities to our story. It's uncanny. You and my wife would be able to talk for a long time, man. She taught school as you. She taught kindergarten and then she taught second grade. But she and Ryan had a very similar relationship that you had with Connor. I mean, he got her and she got him.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Their personalities were very much alike. And it was just such an incredibly sweet relationship. And I just hear the sweetness of that as you describe that. And when you were talking about trying to leave that hospital room, I think what so many people don't understand is that when when a mom talks about that at that level, only other moms really, I think, can connect with that because you really are, I mean, you a mom and her child are connected, not just emotionally, but the physical connection because you guys share DNA, literally. Literally. And you carried Connor's DNA for decades after he was born. He carries your DNA.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So when when we say that you you feared the loss of that that connection and feared the loss of walking away, and you felt like you were losing some of yourself, it's because you were.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

And that's what it's important for people to understand. You're looking in from the outside.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Mom does physically lose something of herself when she loses a child.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

One other thing, right? Our last vacation as a family of five was August of 2000, and he passed in February of 2009. So we went to the Grand Canyon. We had had a meeting tagged on to that, but we got some time to walk the Grand Canyon. And in true family, deal family fashion, the five of us. Ron and Braden and Brennan are over the edge. You know, the sign says, you know, don't go over here, but he's got the other two boys going off the side over there.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

We we went there anyway.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

They went there anyway.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

And Connor and I stayed on the path and arm in arm, had a solid hour. And all he was doing because the end of August, so this is mid-August, the end of August, he's about to go into sixth grade. And he is sharing every hope, every dream, every fear, every little thing with me about a girl he liked. The fact that the kids he tells the kids at school he's Amish because he doesn't have a cell phone. His dreams of being the next George Lucas and writing Star Wars and how people don't understand he's not playing with dolls. He's storyboarding as he's doing these creative blocking for, you know, he just his mind was so creative. And I I it's like Mary. I I treasure that in my heart.

SPEAKER_05 17:07

Yeah, I bet you do.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

It is what keeps me going. And yet I can go back there in a nanosecond. I can feel him and feel that and I feel what I would give for another an hour, another hour like that, and not knowing what that would mean to me. And that is kind of the heaven reunion that I see for he and I that the Lord will give us. But I miss that because the other two, yes, they would share things, but I just I just think my 29-year-old Connor would be calling me, going, I want to talk to you about this, this, and this. And I miss I miss the relationship unfolding as he would have gotten older.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yeah, I know you do. I know you do. And what a reunion that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

Oh my.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

So, guys, you know, we've talked about the impact that that losing a child has on parents individually. We spoke with you about that, Ron, in a in a previous episode. And, you know, you just shared with us, Nan, from a mom's perspective. What I'd like for us to do now is to is to take a few minutes and explore the impact that losing a child has on a marriage. I mean, there's all kinds of rumors out there, all kinds of information, false information out there about the impact it has on marriages. And I think Ron, you and I touched on that in that episode we had earlier. So let's talk about the truth of the impact. And then let's also talk about from you guys' experience and in your experiences, Ron, in working with families, the impact that the loss of a sibling has on those surviving brothers and sisters. So I'll let you guys can both speak into this and you decide who wants to go first. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

I know I know you're passionate about this subject about marriage.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Yeah. I know with marriage in general, men and women come at it two different ways. You know, whether it's communication, sex, money, even, you know, discipline, children, raising children, all of those things, career path, you know, all the things. We're just wired differently, created differently. And so why wouldn't this be any different?

SPEAKER_05 19:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

I do hate the stat that scares people. And I do hate that stat that marriages are going to end, and people use that to throw out at couples that have just had a loss.

What Child Loss Does To Marriage

SPEAKER_02 19:53

What I would like to say with that is don't lead with that. The couple is already reeling from the unimaginable. So don't lead with that. Plus, that stat of it being in the 90 percentile that your marriage is doomed is isn't isn't true.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

No, it's not. And so share with us what what is true, Nan, because I know that you guys know those statistics.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

I think it's the 2006. Correct me if I'm wrong. I looked it up, Caminate Friends had done a study. Right and it's 16%.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Absolutely. And those are lower.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

And those are couples that are already in distress. And so that makes sense then. You know, if you've got a a couple that's already in distress, they're already seeking counsel, they've already had maybe money problems or job change or on and on it goes, then definitely this is going to push into that and cause more stress. But it it doesn't mean it's the end of the marriage, though.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah. Greg, what we've come to see is the satisfaction level of your marriage, the condition of the quality of your marriage prior to the loss of your child has a lot to do with the direction then of how grief takes you. If your marriage is strong, grief is something it's not going to divide and conquer and completely debilitate anything that you had going on your behalf. It's going to challenge you. This is the hardest road we've ever walked, without any doubt. But at the same time, it's not going to necessarily destroy your relationship. If you were struggling prior to the child law, now you have another thing that is added to all the distress that you've had before. So Dan's right. Don't as a friend, as a family member, don't lead with that. I know you're concerned about people, but don't just give them something else to be paranoid about. And what they need is hope. What they need is people coming alongside them to add to the reservoir of what they're drawing from in order to be able to endure this great loss. They don't need somebody throwing darkness on top of what's already dark.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

And I think too, moms and dads come at it differently, men and women come at it differently. I I know after walking this for 17 years and sitting with a lot of couples, the the women tend to have more words, tend to have a lot of emotions and a mode more. The men tend to want to be quiet and introspectively, you know, grieve. Um, but that's not typically the norm. I mean, my husband, I think it's because of his professional bent, is a talker. And so we've been able to talk and communicate. I don't think we should pigeonhole people, but I do think as a couple, you need to allow one another the space to grieve the way you grieve. You know? And so that's a delicate balance to find that. We tried very hard. At the beginning to extend each other grace. And I don't know if I've shared this already, but there, you know, Connor was in the hospital for 10 days. Anything hospital for me, I did not really in the beginning want to see anymore or experience anymore. It was very hard for me. And I remember one night coming in with our youngest son, he had had, I think, soccer practice. And Ron and our oldest son were sitting on the couch watching an episode of House, which is a medical show.

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

And I thought I was going to lose my mind. I really wanted to throw something, say something, and say, why would you have that on in our home after everything that we've been through? I mean, it it hadn't been long. And I stopped myself and I thought they're they're connecting. Somehow they're connecting in that way. So I just ushered my younger son into our bedroom and we had a TV in there and I said, Hey, let's watch Food Network. And he was happy with that. That was safe for us. And so I think we've got to extend each other a tremendous amount of grace. As husbands and wives, I do.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

I couldn't agree more with that. And it's it's not uncommon to hear spouses uh talk about how when particularly I think this this happens with with moms more than with dads. Correct me if if I'm wrong based on what you guys have discovered, but that sometimes a mom is her hurt and pain and suffering are go a lot deeper in a lot of ways than than it does for a a man, for a dad. Different. I mean it's not let one's not not more than or less than the other. It's just different. But because they ex we express it differently. I've heard women sometimes talk about how in the early days they didn't think their husband was grieving because he wasn't grieving like she was. Right. And and it's easy to get upset with your mate when it looks like they're just, you know, uh it looks like it's sort of a callous approach or it's just nonchalant, but that's not the case. And it as you said, we need to give each other grace and remember, regardless of how it looks, you're both suffering.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yes. I I wanna I wanna push back a little bit on the idea that men don't grieve as deeply as as moms do. I actually think it's the same. It's just the outward expression is what people see. And what somebody who's going, wow, I don't think my spouse is grieving well or with me or what what they're really saying is I feel isolated and alone in my grief. And I'm hoping to be able to share this with you and you share with me, and then I feel connected and like I'm not alone. That's really ultimately what they're looking for. And the reason that's important is because if you're not a talker, if you're an internal grieving person, well, you got to kick start something in order to move toward your spouse who is the talker. Now, this is a two-way street. You talkers gotta learn how to shut it down and be quiet for a minute and sit in the room with your spouse in silence and consider that grieving. See, both people sort of define what good grieving is by how they emote, whether they're external or internal. And unfortunately, that means you're saying the other person's doing it wrong. Now think about that for a second. When the minute you start feeling like, oh, you think I'm doing this wrong, well, now we're against each other in our grief. That that's problematic. So when we say give each other grace, in part what she's saying is, we worked really hard to figure out what do I need? Because I don't know what I need, you know. I've I've never been down this horrible road before. So there's that whole journey, but then there's how do I bring that to you so you at least have a sense. Like I I learned, for example, and in fact, I still do things like this. I I'll walk in and I'll say to her, I'm in a bad place. I need some quiet. I need to just be inside my head for a little bit. What I've learned to do with that is that I'm giving her something so she knows where I am, what it means, and what it does not mean. Because when you're feeling isolated and uh disconnected in your marriage in the grieving journey, and you get another piece of information that suggests oh, they're moving further away from me. Now you're getting more paranoid, you're getting more anxious about how this is affecting your usness, the usness of your marriage. And so when you give each other something, I'm not mad at you, I'm I'm not whatever, you know, I'm not avoiding you, I'm not avoiding this topic. I just need some quiet. Boy, does that go a long way to helping her know where I am and how she can posture in in light of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, that those are good words. And if if we would if we would employ that at at a very personal level in our own marriages, it would really go a long way to helping us be able to not to add another layer to what we're already going through.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

You don't need any more layers. No, you certainly don't. So were there any you know, you shared one practical example there, Ron. Were there any other things that you guys chose to do to to show each other that grace that you know that we're talking about? We don't want this to be left as a concept, but how how would you guys put that? How did you put that into practice?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I'll tell you one bad on me, but it it was great grace Ron showing for me. I I didn't I didn't use grace with music being on, worship music being on. Connor and I sang together. We harmonized together. He took the lead and I was the alto. He that was a really sacred space. He always sat beside me in church, even to the demise of our

Grace For Different Grief Styles

SPEAKER_02 28:32

other two boys. He's not sharing you. You know, Ron would be on one side and Connor would sneak and be on, and and it's because we sang together, we loved it. We harmonized all the time. And so that was a very painful part for me. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to hear music from his service, I didn't want to be caught off guard, and then it just music was so sorry, such a trick, such a trigger and such a space of intimacy with my child. And so I made a declaration, I don't want it on, I don't want it on in this car, I don't want it on. You know, it was me trying to protect that pain. And I did that for a long time. Ron graciously honored that. And I know for years he listened to that music by himself. But that was a real you know, the TV and house was a good moment, and then I just the music, but I think it was because it was so deep for me with Connor and a connection.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

And this is a good example of how the same thing can have the different effect on us. So while that was triggering to pain for her, I at some point began to move toward music. I stayed away for it for a while myself, but probably a couple of years in, I started moving towards Christian music as a solace.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

You found solace, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

And so two totally different outcomes. And and therefore we had to work hard. I I I remember pulling up into the garage, driving her car to run an errand, remembering that I needed to turn the Christian music off because she was going to get in the car and that's the first thing she was gonna hear. Like it took work to to try to love each other in that way.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, and what I'm hearing too is that you guys put each other ahead of yourself. You know, even though that was a you know, you guys had your own grief to deal with, you were putting each other first. And when you do that, sometimes that elicits the other to put the other spouse first. And so you are, you know, you're coming together as you grieve in different ways, but you're honoring how each other's grieving. And I can remember y'all struggling with the same thing after we lost Ryan. I could not listen to music when I was alone in my car. I just I couldn't do it because it elicited too many very strong memories because Ryan loved uh a variety of music. But it was something that he and Kathy shared. I mean, they just that was a real bond between them, like you guys, Nan. If I was in the car with Kathy, or if she was in the car with me, I should say it was a little bit easier, but it still took a long time before I could listen and not just be over feel overwhelmed sometimes. So, you know, I I can totally relate.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah. I'm as you're talking, I'm thinking of more examples, just to get really practical for your for your listeners. Uh we were constantly checking in with each other about family, friends, people coming over, not coming over. Do we entertain this, do we have this phone call with with my brother, your mother, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Who's safe, who's not?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

We were constantly checking in with each other. Not just because there were times where, you know, man, I needed to be with somebody. But being with that person may have been problematic for her, or having that conversation at this point in time may have been problematic for me. And so we were always checking in. And the other thing that I'm thinking of here is that over time, as grief evolves and changes, you have to keep checking in with each other about the things that you've feel like you've been you've you've come to terms with. So this whole thing about music, for example, there came a time where all of a sudden Anne was open to Christian music again. And that that is the path of jer uh of grief, by the way. Things you just absolutely could not do yesterday. There comes a moment where you're ready.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

It was about a decade.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

And it took a long time for her. So if if I'm not checking in, then I'm making assumptions about what she wants, and all of a sudden that uh assumption is wrong where it was right before, it's now wrong. Yeah. Like it's so important, you just gotta keep in touch.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah, I I'm glad you shared that. Dan, I could see that you want to jump in and add to that.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Well, I just an example of for Ron, every year he wanted to write something on Connors Heaven Day. Every year he wanted to just pour out some thoughts. And I think it was last year. He said, you know, I don't need to do that. I don't need to do that. And I was really taken aback by that. And it wasn't like, oh, he's done grieving. It was like that is not for this year, but what about next year? It may come back.

SPEAKER_05 33:15

That's right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

He may feel like he needs to do it. And so I think we we figure out all of these things, but then with time, not that it fixes it or it gets better, with time it changes and perspectives can change. And so I really do think you have to continue to check in with one another about all of that. The grave, their their belongings, family, friends, church, God. It just all does have it just changes and evolves. It really does.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

It does. And it it also speaks to the unpredictability of grief.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

You know, you like you know, like you were just saying, Nan, for for Ron this year, he didn't feel like he needed to to write. But next year he might.

SPEAKER_05 34:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

He might skip a couple of years and then he might feel the need to do it again. And I think this also speaks to the fact that you know that grief does not have time limits on it.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

You know, for you guys, it's been it's been quite a number of years.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

But you're the emotion that you know that you just displayed, Nan, talking about what was so uh what you treasured so much brings those emotions back in just a heartbeat.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

And I so I appreciate what you guys have shared because I think those are really practical aspects of of grieving together as a couple that can help go a long way in the healing process for for both.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

And you know what I've found as a couple is it's not just the loss of your child. It's not just absorbing that and figuring out, okay, what do we do now? How do we place our child moving forward in life? It's how do I deal with this family member who will never mention their name again? Or a friend that says, I need you to move on and I need you to be the same person, or whatever it is. Or now I get people when I say, Yeah, I'm I'm a grieving mom, and they say, Well, how long has it been? And I said, Well, it's been 17 years. They give me a look now of, oh, I can't I can't believe you're still talking about it because it's been a long time. I mean, time for us all. And then how do we manage

The Hidden Loss Of Family Rhythm

SPEAKER_02 35:37

our adult children? Then they move on and surpass their siblings and on and on. It goes. It's not just the loss of the child and we bury them, and there's that event, but it's everything else on top of it. It's very complicated and I and it's hard to navigate sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I want to add one more thought to that, and then we can talk about siblings. Uh, Nan's hit on something that I think very few, even very few books that we read and people we talked to in counselors, really, really illuminated this for us. But it's very, very real. When you lose a child, you don't just lose, you're not just grieving that child. You're grieving who you were together as a couple and that child. You're grieving who your family unit was with that child. Everything changes. If you could flip it over, if you've got somebody listening and you've got more than one child, do you remember adding that second child? You remember uh uh as mom and dad, when you outnumbered your kids, you were kind of in charge of things. You could take turns, tag your it, okay, you know, I get a break. Now when you have two, you gotta play a man-to-man defense. Like everybody's got a kid, and you've got to line up with someone, everybody's on duty, right? When you get three or more, by the way, you've got to go to a zone because there's no way to get away. Then you're outnumbered. That's right. So all of that, and we laugh about it, but the same thing is happening in reverse when you lose a child. You remove somebody from the family. So, for example, the rhythm that you had in life. I would wake up early in the morning, go check on the kids, start getting a cup of coffee, da-da-da-da-da. We got to take this kid to this school and this one to this, and this person's doing this, and this activity always happens on Tuesday afternoon, and then on Saturday morning we hit. See, all of that changes. Like the rhythms of your week, your calendar, the moments of your day-to-day responsibilities as a parent have changed. You have these gaps, glaring gaps in your life. And you're like, I knew who I was yesterday, now I don't know who I am or how to even do my day, my like that kind of you grieve that too. And I just think people are not, we don't talk about that enough.

SPEAKER_05 37:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Because it is notable how strange you feel about your life, your calendar, your schedule, when that is missing. And of course it's centered on the loss of that child, but it also gives you a sense of meaning and identity that somehow is missing.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah. That that really resonates. I know that people that are listening right now have all experienced that. That's right. On their grief journey.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

And somebody may not have put words on it until just now, and you're gonna go, oh, that's what I'm feeling. Oh, that's why four o'clock on Tuesday afternoon hurts. Because I'm not at a volleyball game, right? Whatever that is, that's it. That's it. It's another ripple effect of the loss of your child, but it's also another loss, something in you that has to change it that you didn't want.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah. And it it it it also goes to the point that something that you said a moment ago, Nan, the loss of a child is far, far bigger than the event. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

It it that that's the beginning point. That's just the beginning. Just the beginning. It's so more far-reaching and so much deeper than people that have never experienced can even begin to imagine. And you know, you you mentioned a minute ago, Nan, that you know, people sometimes that generally they just don't know what to do with us sometimes. They want the old Greg back, or they want the old Ron and Nan back. They want you guys, they want us to be normal again. That's over. There is there is no old us. They've got a new us. And yes, our personalities are still in place, but but the impact, the the trauma that we experience and all those changes we experience, they make us they make us new people in a lot of ways. Sometimes if we if we let God into our grief with us, you know, He can refine us through this and we can become better people.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah, and uh so let's let's take a step in the other direction towards siblings. Yeah, this is this is kind of uh I'm just gonna ask the question because I I know the answer. So does losing a child affect how you parent other children?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Absolutely. The first thing that pops in my mind is losing a child makes you look at all your priorities in a fresh way. And the things that you thought were important prior to the loss are different after the loss. And so that ripples into how you prioritize your time with your other children, what you do, what you say, what you don't say, what you address, what you don't address, how you invest in certain directions and aspects of their life and how you no longer care about that anymore. You know, there's it's amazing how there's this radical recalibration

Parenting Through Fear After Loss

SPEAKER_00 40:37

is the word we use of what you think is important and what you're gonna say and do as a result of that. And that absolutely changes.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Well, the unimaginable has happened. So the unimaginable has happened. It is every parent's worst nightmare. And then you go, oh, wait a minute, I have one other child, or I have two other children, or I have five, whatever the case may be, or I don't have any. And do we have other children? I've sat with parents, you know, their only child, and they're young enough to have more children. Uh you can't not parent or think about life without filtering it through that filter of grief, of the loss of a child. You just can't.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

And so true.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

You try not to hover, you try not to. I remember when we sat down with the boys and said, you know, because we had this bookshelf that we pulled into the dining room, and it actually became a shrine. It really did, of all of Connor's things. And we had that for a couple of years, and I'll never forget the boys kind of looking at it and rolling their eyes and just, you know, trying to, we didn't have this before, and now we have this, and what is this? And, you know, it was just Ron and I trying to just hold on to what we could of Connor. But the boys were reacting differently than us. And I remember saying to them, if this was you, this would be all of your stuff. Or if this was you, Brendan, this would be all of your stuff. And I think it's hard for them to see us really grieving so heavily because we're their parents. I mean, it's just apples and oranges, parents and siblings. And as a parent, you can't not not think about the possibility of it happening again or reacting in ways that are just so strange to your to your other surviving children.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yeah, that's so true. Did you guys find yourselves just being a little more fearful in general towards your other children?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah. As a reminder to your listeners, so our son Connor was 12 when he passed away. He had an older brother, Braden, who's 14 at the time, and younger brother Brennan, who was 10 at the time. So they're now 31 and 27. So I'll never forget the first time our oldest son got a headache. Connor's first symptom of MERSOSTAF infection, his first symptom was a headache. I'll never forget the first time Braden had a headache. Or, you know, just a little sniffle. You can't tell me that that anything's little anymore. Nothing is little anymore when you know what can happen. I hate to say it, but we're no longer ignorant after we lose a child. We're not we're not dumb to the horrible things that can happen in the world. It used to be that was somebody else's problem, somebody else's story. When it hits this close, you are no longer ignorant.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

And then when Braden got his permit, and you know, 15 years old, he wants to go learn how to drive, and I'll never forget then when he got his driver's license, 16. And his younger brother, it's like, yeah, let's go get some ice cream.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

The first time the two of them drove away.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

The two of them drove away.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Oh, my heart's just I mean, this is where you have to.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Do we do we squelch that?

SPEAKER_00 43:51

This is where you have to preach to yourself as a parent. You have to preach to yourself and say, All right, what is this? This is my fear, this is my anxiety. And and understandably so, are you gonna live as a victim of this the rest of your life? Now you got to make a decision. How do you how do you calm yourself in those moments? Like literally, you have to do that. Otherwise, you will be hyper-vigilant the rest of your days. And nobody wants to live with a hyper-vigilant person day in and day out. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

You know, and it's almost like a natural reaction on on your part without even thinking about it. Yeah, you if you could find one, you'd wrap your you would wrap your child up in one of those Michelin tire suits, you know, big commercials. Big bubble, nothing happens. You know? But you they can't live that way. And and you can't live that way because you I mean you don't want to make them resentful because it's but it sure is tempting to go into control mode. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Well, and unfortunately, we've met some parents who have lost more than one child.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Oh yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

And so yeah, it's a hard it's a hard one.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, it is. There there is nothing easy about that. And it's a you know, it's something that you have to tackle one day at a time. Definitely. Because you you know, you can't think in terms of the future. But that was a great example about driving. Because I know it's gonna be hard for our daughter, who has a 16-year-old son, and he has his permit.

SPEAKER_05 45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

And of course, losing her little brother hit very hard. And so I know that she's gonna be constantly worried, and I know that my wife will be as well. So, and those are things that you don't think about back in, you know, back in time.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

That's right. That's right. So I think the takeaway here, I think for listeners, is a lot of things in life are going to trigger your fear and anxiety, and rightfully so. That doesn't make any comment about you. You're not grieving poorly. You're not a Christian with little faith. Do not do that to yourself. Right. This is the way this is the way the brain works, this is the way the body and the soul has been created by God. Thank you very much. And there is tons of scripture that tells us lament is an ongoing process, not a one-and-done sort of a thing. So do not guilt yourself over this. The question is, what do I do with it when I see it? When I be mindful. Notice this is what I'm feeling. Oh my gosh, I just got tense. Oh my goodness, I just went into control mode with my 16-year-old. Can I be this person the rest of my life and their life? The answer is no. At some level, you have to look control straight into the face and say, I'm not God. And I can't do this. I can't try, I cannot give in to this. Otherwise, nobody wants to be around me and I won't like myself in the process. Yeah. You have to, again, you can't go back to being ignorant.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

So you have to learn how to carry that anxiety and not let it control you, which is not an easy task, but that is the journey in order to have any sort of balance in your life.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know about you guys, but you know, I I think we all struggle with control issues in our lives. Especially after loss. Especially after loss. But, you know, I can remember so clearly after we lost Ryan, that was one of the things that just, it was like this huge revelation. Probably shouldn't have been, but it was. That, you know, all this control that I thought that I exercised in our family and in my parenting, it it just evaporated. I mean, in in a with a phone call. And I suddenly realized all those thoughts and thinking that I was in control was only ever an illusion to begin with. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Greg, I like to say before Cunner died, I thought I was big. I didn't know that I thought I was big. I didn't realize that I thought I ran the world, but I really thought I ran the world. And then of course you what you learn that you you don't, and you're small, and my God is big, but I am small. Right. And and that is a harsh reality that is ugly, ugly, ugly, but you absolutely have to come to terms with that.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

It is. God is God, and I'm not. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

Exactly. I think another thing about the siblings is is that we just need to know that they're not gonna grieve like parents.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah. Yeah. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Maybe, maybe the same conversations that you're having with your spouse you have with your kids, and say, you know, like with our boys, they were very adamant that they didn't need to go to the grave. They didn't need that. Um, they didn't want to. Ron and I found solace there and wanted to. There's I know there's some parents don't that don't, but he and I could do that. And especially like on Connor's birthday or Heaven Day or maybe at the holidays. And that is something that they didn't need to do. There were times when we would just talk and say, you know, we're probably stressing

Helping Siblings Grieve Their Way

SPEAKER_02 49:00

a little here about you driving, we're stressing about you going on this trip. And it's just because we've really struggled over the loss of your brother, and it's just been hard as moms and dads. We just want to hold on to you tighter. And so please just cut us a break here. We're we're trying to do the best we can.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yeah, you know, that's there's so much wisdom in that, Nan, because I think what they need is for us to be real with them. That's right. I think a lot of times we try to, you know, we try to protect them. And in and in doing that, you know, they, you know, they see us, they can read us way better than we think they can. They know when something's wrong. And unfortunately, I think all too often parents will say when they're asked that, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. You know, don't don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Greg, I'm putting my therapist hat on for a second. Good. I think that is a massive error for parents to think that I've got to be strong for my kids so they'll be strong, so they'll find their way through. Absolutely not. That is absolutely not the case. What they learn from you holding all your stuff in and pretending like you're okay is that they too need to do that. And that serves absolutely no one. What you need instead is family permission to talk and to grieve and to be real. Yes, I want you to put a guard on your words so that you you don't share every thought you have with your with your children, but they need somebody to show them how to do this. Look, I don't know how to grieve, even though I was a therapist and had helped lots of grieving people through lots of tragedies involving children. I had that life experience. But when it came to me trying to walk that road, I didn't know how to do this. I didn't know what was the best way or how to navigate. I certainly didn't know what my own feelings were half the time. So it it's what I'm saying is I don't know how to do it. How can I expect a 10-year-old to know how to do it? Exactly. You gotta stumble through this thing together. That's what you do. Stumble forward together. My 10-year-old, my 14-year-old needed me to show them what grief grasping onto the heels of God looks like. Grief holding on to God, what does that look like? That, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief, that my goodness, God, where in the world were you? So sort of thing. Yet will I trust you? They need me to show them what I'm going through so that they too have a sense of the path that they need to go down. Now it's gonna have their own expression, it's gonna have their own timing, and everything associated with that, of course, is individual to them. But they need the permission to see it and model it, and then we sort of share it. That creates an environment where people are gonna stumble their way forward, I think.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, and that's the healthy way to do it. I mean, it people stumble, as you said. I mean, we're going to stumble along as we grieve as individuals, but also as parents and as a couple. But if we can just be real and honest and transparent with each other to to the level that particularly uh in re referring to one of our children that they're mature enough to be able to grasp, then it really, it really can make a huge difference to let them see that mom and dad are not perfect, that mom and dad need God. That's right. You know, we are dependent as well. So uh thank you for sharing that. You know, guys, there's something else I wanted us to talk about. I really want you guys to to speak to. I watched a video that you guys did for Focus on the Family, where you talked about your story, but you shared a couple of concepts that that I think could be so beneficial to to our listeners. One of them is about it's called grieving between the rails, if I'm not mistaken. And the other you described a a grief garden. So I want you guys to speak about that and how that, how you guys came up with that and how it applies to our listeners. Yeah. You want me to talk about the rails?

SPEAKER_02 53:06

I was gonna say I'll go first and do the garden. But you want me to go? Okay. Well, uh, it comes out of

Protecting Your Grief Garden

SPEAKER_02 53:13

being with a friend who had lost her son 10 years ahead of me, and I just remember once God connected us, I just did a lot of my venting to her. And I would say, why doesn't this person want to do this? And why doesn't this person care? And why is this person saying this and that? And I remember her stopping me one day and saying, Nan, you have a grief garden, and your grief garden is between you and God and Connor. You've got to protect it at all costs. So, what is in your grief garden? What do you want in there? The memories, the love, the things that you shared. And she said, once you've cultivated this beautiful grief garden where it's safe for you and all the love, the memories to be preserved in there, a place where you can go to lament and to remember. It's your job then, after you've cultivated this beautiful grief garden between you and God and Connor, it's your job to protect it. And it's your job to let people in who are worthy to be in there, and it's your job to shoot people out. And to allow them not to come in and trample on whatever is in that garden. And I that that made a huge, huge pivot in my grieving. And to this day, I know what my grief garden looks like, I know where it is, I know what it has in it, and I know who can go in and who can not. And when I meet new people, I really can't size them up within 30 seconds to a minute. And I know whether they're worthy of even getting an invitation there.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Yeah. Yeah. I I imagine that was an incredible feeling of both relief and freedom.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

To to hear that it's okay to do that.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Because sometimes we don't know if it's okay. Yes. We don't want to hurt other people. We feel good, but at the same time, yeah. Yeah, we don't, you know, there's all all of that stuff wrapped up in it. So I love that concept.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

It doesn't mean that you don't I mean, there's just certain people who are going to trample the roses. And so once you learn that, it is your job. See, here's the catch, Greg. What we want is for those other people who trample the roses to figure out how to not trample the roses. Precisely. What we want is for them to have enough decency and respect and compassion and care and empathy to not even trample ever, right? And once they do, we sort of want them to figure it out, grow up, and get it right. And then we're waiting on them to get it right. And guess what we do? We let them in the garden again and they trample them all over again. We let them in again, they trample all. And who's being hurt by this? Us, right? Yeah. So this was such a liberating thing for us there. Oh, I have permission. I have permission to keep the gate shut and say, sorry, you don't get access to that part of my heart. I can set up those boundaries and I manage that for me. I'm not waiting on them to figure it out. I'm just managing it for me. That's so liberating and so man, what's the word? It's relieving because now I don't have to mess with you coming in and you know hurting stuff again.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Trampling all over the roses. Yes. Yeah. Yep. And it's not mean to do that.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

No, it's not mean to do that. It's very empowering. And I say to my moms and dads all the time, this is what you do on their birthday. This is what you do on their heaven day. This is what you do at Christmas or Father's Day or Mother's Day. I mean, I spend a lot of time in that garden. And it's truly where I've learned to lament as well. And there are people that can come in and lament with me. But there are also people that they kind of want to peek in and just kind of see what it's all about. And you know, you know you can size them up. Really trust your gut and also pray about it and just and ask the Lord, you know, who can be in here and who can't? And he'll he'll show you that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah. You do have to protect your heart. There's no no two ways about it. Yeah. Ron, I want you to spend a few minutes talking about the grieving between the rails. That's I I love that concept.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Yeah. So this video, by the way, that we did for Focus on the Family is just about protecting your marriage as you grieve. And and so people can Google that. It's on YouTube. We stumbled on this. We were trying to put words on our grief journey after three or four or five years, and we just started kind of trying to voice to each other, right? What is it like? You know, because everybody's got an analogy. And of course, Kublar Ross's five stages of grief is what people throw around at one another. And by the way, we've written about this a little bit. It's so important people know Kublaras did some amazing research and work, but she never, ever, ever intended it to become stages. She never articulated this for every type of grief under the sun. And by the way, she only

Riding Between Sadness And Hope

SPEAKER_00 58:11

studied, she only studied individuals who were themselves dying. So if you had terminal cancer, she studied those people. She didn't study their family, their friends, the people who were left behind after they died. She studied anticipatory grief. That's it. That's all. But unfortunately, we have turned her sages into the ubiquitous prescription for everything under the sun. And it doesn't work. It doesn't fit, especially when it comes to grieving about a loss of a child.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

So I think too, there were a couple of instances that kept coming up where, you know, those first couple of years we just didn't want to do like the holidays say Christmas came and it was like, no, we don't want to do a tree. We don't want to do anything. But then once time was moving and we'd gotten into like year two or three, it was like, okay, the the boys were like, let's get a tree and let's decorate. And then that would last for about 10 minutes and we'd all be just sad. We'd we'd kind of like rally and go, well, this is joyful and Christmassy. And then we'd all go, we're done. And then it would be sad again. And that happened when our oldest son graduated high school and went off to college. And I'm like, I'm not feeling this sadness of him leaving and going off to college. What is going on with me? I'm I'm not like the typical mom. And so we would start talking about those things. And it's like, wait a minute, it's both.

SPEAKER_05 59:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

We we kind of are go vacillating between both, or we're feeling both. And so that's kind of where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

So we sort of, long story short, just said, you know what? It feels like we're on the grief train and the train's riding on two rails, like trains do. And but the rails are different. The left rail is the deep, deep sadness of missing Connor. The right rail is, but I know I'm gonna get to see him again. So there's some hopefulness in that right rail. The left rail is, yeah, but I don't get to see him today, and I miss this and this and this, and this part of my life is weird and strange, and I don't like that person anymore, and this friend is no longer a friend. That's the left rail. And the right rail is, but my goodness, God has provided new friends and new people and people who share about grief gardens with us and give us perspective. And we're finding things in God's word that we never saw before, but are somehow helping us figure out this journey. The left rail is this this bitterness of life. The right rail is, but I do taste sweet every once in a while, and I can see it. And we sort of found ourselves describing these two very different feelings, sadness and hopefulness, and how often they showed up. And we also noticed that we were mostly in the beginning on the sad rail. That's it. You know, it's like the train was leaning on one rail, but the other one was still on the ground. It was still there, but we didn't feel it very much. But as time went on, we began to feel more hope and hopefulness. But notice the two rails are parallel, they never meet. It's not like, and see, here's a big misconception, I think, of the Christian community. If you have enough faith, you have enough hope, the pain goes away. Nope. From here until eternity, these two things are riding out in front of us, and we're going to experience both of them, often at the exact same moment. Sometimes it just I notice one and I don't even not be aware of the other. But sometimes I'm aware of the sweet bitter simultaneously. And here it is, side by side, this is where they go. Well, over time we begin to, I do some research and I put my clinical hat on and I try to figure this stuff out. And what I've come to discover is that the prevailing theory about how what grief really looks like to do it well is that there are two main tasks. And one of them is you gotta be sad, you gotta remember, you gotta reflect, you gotta cry, you gotta weep over the person that has died. And then you also have to go to work. You gotta get up and do life, you gotta parent your other kids, you gotta pay bills, you gotta find your way back into the real world. Not that you're necessarily happy, but that you're able to do it. And then they discovered that that as you basically ride these two rails that we've been talking about, that it's the movement between the two that really becomes what moves you forward in grieving. So it's sitting down in your grief garden and again reflecting and telling stories and again being sad and and again sitting as a couple and reflecting and remembering all the painful things and but good things about your child, and then talking about how you're loving your kids and the the world that you're living in now. Like it's the movement between those two rails that propels you forward. Now, here's the last little insight. So all of a sudden we're looking at scripture in fresh ways, and what we're noticing is that this is all over lament. This is what lament is. This is what God is teaching us to do in the laments of the Psalms and stories of Job and lamentations and all those places in Scripture is there is a crying out to God about what is sad and bitter and hurtful and painful on in your life. And right next to it is another rail where you say, and yet will I remember God who you are, that I can trust you, that there is hope because of you, and there is a future that I can lean into because of you. And there's the two rails. This is what lament does. Read Psalm 77, for example. It's a it's a beautiful picture of the left rail, and then he makes a choice to jump over to the right rail. That's part of what we're doing is remembering, hurting, reflecting, reminiscing, and choosing to trust in God and hold on to hope. And it's the movement between those two spaces over time that somehow is helpful for us in our grief. You don't grieve to get over it, you just grieve to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

And I think if you're I think if you're a new griever and you're going uh yeah, I hear you, but I'm just I am just landing on that hard rail of sorrow right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:01

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

And of course you are. Those first couple years, of course you are. It's just hard to absorb. So don't I always tell people be kind to yourself. Don't beat yourself up over it. I I'll I'll never forget that first Christmas. There there was not much joy. There was not much joy. And then this year, 17 Christmases, I was so missing Connor. I was missing him because we have a grandson now. We we were doing family pictures and he should be in them. And yet I was very joyful over the gift of Jesus, his birth, and and and what has been given to our family. And so it can be both, but I do think for those of you that are new into it, that that harder sadness, sorrow rail, you can write on that and feel like you're not even touching down on that other one. But don't beat yourself up over that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Yeah, I think that's really important. Don't beat yourself up. It it's it's normal. There's there's nothing wrong with you if that's how you're feeling today. But I I hope that if you are in that place that that Nan was just describing, that from the conversation we've had today, that you guys can see that there is absolutely hope for you. Yes. That life will not stay in that very dark, deep place that it feels like it you're never going to get out of. There is hope for that joy and for that wholeness and purpose to re-enter your life again. But there is a a lot of that depends on the choices that we make. Part of that is choosing to let the safe people into our lives, choosing to have real and honest and open conversations with each other, and inviting God into the process with us because He He is faithful to do that, and He will carry us through and carry us forward. And I've heard that faith in you guys loud and clear. Do you guys have a favorite scripture that that you've leaned on uh you know in your grief journey?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:12

Go ahead, babe.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

I found it in Connor's Bible. It was really the only one that was highlighted. We had started in January of 2009 going through Proverbs. And he passes away February 17th. So we hadn't gotten far in. We do this on Sunday nights as a family. It was a sweet time for us. And so I was in his belongings in his room after he passed, and Proverbs three, five, and six was highlighted in his Bible. And boy, I was trust. I was mad. I was so mad

Scriptures That Hold Up Under Pain

SPEAKER_02 1:06:49

at first. And you know, because I was riding that rail of sorrow and sadness and deep anger and just disillusionment. But I tethered myself to God and I love that verse now. I feel like God gave that verse to me through my son.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Yeah. And for for those who are listening right now and maybe aren't familiar with that verse, would would one of you guys share that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

I would be happy to. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. You know, that is a deeply. You know, here's the thing that sorrow does to you, you know, the recalibration. Yeah, probably read that verse a hundred million times before coming back. But now, in the deep, deep valley of the shadow of death, trusting God with all your heart and not leaning on your own understanding is a monumental task in the midst of pain and difficulty.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

And yet it is the path. It is the way forward. And it's hard and it's challenging and difficult. And by the way, we lead a virtual support group for parents who have lost a child, and we always start by saying, Hey, you can be mad at God and we're glad you're here. You can have lost your faith in God completely. You want nothing to do with God or the church. We're glad you're here. This is the right place to be. You do not have to be happy with God to be in this journey because we certainly had moments where we weren't.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

We get that. And God gets that. That's why He teaches us to lament.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

But it's important that you at least move yourself to the idea that He's trustworthy. And that will be an incremental process for some. And it's all good, you know. It is. But at the end of the day, that's where your hope is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Absolutely. Yeah. Is there any particular scripture that you that you really clung to, Rob?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

Yes. And I'm going to pull it up. Everybody, if I said, what's Psalms 23 say? Most people can kind of at least pull something out. You know, God, the Lord is my shepherd. Shall I want? He makes me lie down. He pastors. He restores my soul. But do you know what Psalm 22 is about? Let me read the first verse of Psalm 22. And it too is a bit familiar for people, but they don't often recognize that this is uh see while I pull it up here. Psalm 22 and 23 together are a lament. Psalm 22, 1. My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

The words that Jesus spoke on the cross.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

Most people will recognize that and they'll go, Oh, yeah, I've heard that before. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. Yes, he was. And by the way, read the rest of Psalm 22, because anytime anybody in Scripture referenced any part of the Torah, they were referencing everything that went with that. He didn't just quote one verse. He was calling attention. Everything that comes with it. Why are you so far from my deliverance and from my words of groaning? Psalm 22 continues. My God, I cry by day, but you don't answer by night, yet I have no rest. This is the left rail. Yeah. This is the agony of pain. And our Lord felt it just like we do. That doesn't that tell you something? Don't guilt yourself over your pain. He didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Now here's verse three. But you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. He just went to the right rail. He just jumped to the other side and said, I got now, I gotta remember, I know who you are, I know you're trustworthy, I know what you're about, I know, I know, I know, I know. I don't feel it, God, but I know it. And these are the two rails we write on, my friend. This is what we have to do in grief. Not run away from the pain, but absolutely run to the one who holds our pain.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

Good words, good words. Guys, as we bring this to a conclusion today, I think I think the three of us could probably go on for a few hours. I think it would be quite easy to. But thank you so much for for coming and sharing with our listeners your story, for share, for letting our listeners into or giving them some glimpses into your own personal grief journey and the healing process that you guys are in now. And thank you so much for sharing about the grief garden and about riding the the two rails. Um, I think what I'm gonna do is in your episode description, if it's okay with you guys, I'm going to include a link to that video from Focus on the Family.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Absolutely. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

I mean, legally speaking,

Final Encouragement And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

is that acceptable? Yep. Okay. Yep. Not a problem. All right, perfect. Then I will do that. So you guys, when uh when you see Ron and Nan's episode come up, look in the episode description. And this is an incredible video. I've watched it. It's about 20 to 30 minutes, roughly, something like that. It's worth every second of it. Absolutely loved it, and it's so beneficial. Guys, I loved our conversation today. I love all that you guys are doing to help other grieving parents, and I just appreciate so much your transparency and honesty. I think that's what people need to hear.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Thank you. And thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

It's well, it is space.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

It's a privilege. It is absolutely a privilege to be able to do so. Well, guys, again, thank you so very much. And for our listeners, we invite you back for another episode in two weeks. And as always, thank you for listening.