What's the Real ROI of Creative Work?

A shiny award is nice, but here’s the tougher conversation: how do you value creative work when the return doesn’t fit neatly into a spreadsheet? We dig into real numbers, real budgets, and the mindset shifts leaders need to see video as a growth lever rather than a cost center. The catalyst was a familiar moment—sticker shock at a $15K quote for a three-minute video with social cuts. We break down the lifetime value math, show how a single ideal client can pay for the entire project, and explain why “the kid with a phone” isn’t a strategy. From there, we connect the dots between brand equity, omnipresence, and mental availability: why you remember the lawyer you see everywhere and how consistent storytelling creates preference long before a prospect fills out a form.

We also step beyond hard dollars to talk nonprofit and ministry metrics—engagement, education, donor lift—and how video shifts behavior even when revenue isn’t the primary measure. Expect candid takes on when to walk away from misfit clients, why trust beats discounts, and how to structure content that people actually care about. We share a simple scaling lens—promotion, product, people—and place video where it belongs: as proof, story, and distribution-ready fuel across the journey.

If you’ve wrestled with “What’s the ROI?” this is your field guide to better questions, smarter baselines, and iterative measurement that respects both art and science. You’ll leave with practical ways to evaluate spend, align on outcomes, and build assets that compound. Enjoy the conversation, then tell us: what would you test first to move the needle? Subscribe, share with a teammate who challenges budgets, and leave a review to help others find the show.

For more information about us or to see all the amazing people we work with, check out our website:
https://www.letsbackflip.com

Transcript

Kicking Off And A Surprise Win

Ryan Freng 0:00

Welcome to the Backflip Effect, the podcast that proves there's a method to the marketing madness. Specifically, a method that involves clever video strategy and a dash of creative mischief. Now don't be fooled by bland ideas or big budget fluff. Instead, we tackle real client questions and share how we've transformed businesses with strategies that actually work. Grab your headphones and join us as we explore the nitty-gritty of turning everyday marketing woes into story-driven success. Let's get started.

John Shoemaker 0:30

This is how producing happens.

Why Awards Matter For Marketing Value

Ryan Freng 0:33

This is how the biz, this is the biz. Welcome to the biz podcast. Actually, Maria, you should clip this. What is this? Best video for digital media category for Dare to Believe series, episode one. So we also got this sweet statue, which is really cool. Um, this is kind of special because we only entered one thing into the award show, which was this, which we're very proud of in the content. And this was in front of, you know, a big Catholic audience. We should have gone. We did not. I was thinking about it, and then it was like over. I saw it on social media. I was like, crap. But um, we're very, very pleased um and excited to have been awarded this. So thank you to the CMA and the Gabriel Awards and all the people involved. Yeah, great work, team.

The $15K Video And ROI Math

John Shoemaker 1:37

It's it's exciting. It's actually our second Gabriel Award. Our first Gabriel Award we won several years ago for the Power in My Hands documentary. Um, and I believe it was best uh film in a Marian Best Marian film. Uh there it's floating in. Um I also see Luke buying me. He's he's getting ready to make a change on me. Um yeah, so you're right, it was the only one that we entered uh this year in that particular contest. I tried to enter the other stuff, but the Catholic Media Association, you actually have to be, you either have to be like a diocese um or like a Catholic network. Or like a publisher. A publisher, yeah. Yeah. So which we could enter some of those other categories. Um, but there was specifically in the Gabriel Awards category, uh, I could enter that, and we just had the one piece that was that would make sense.

Ryan Freng 2:47

So watch this segue. Uh today we're gonna talk about uh video marketing or just marketing in general and the return on investment, or like what's the value or the impact, or how do you measure that? And this is a great example of that, you know, like winning an award, there's there's some kind of impact and some kind of value to that. But I had a conversation and we were talking about this earlier. I thought it'd make fun, uh fun podcast, but we were talking, I was talking earlier with a uh agency who works with law firms, and we're talking about video production. And she had shared that somebody had told her $15,000 for a three-minute video with some uh other cuts as well, some social media cuts, which is funny because I was like, did I did I share that with her? Because that's like a common number that I have too. Um, but she was like uh flabbergasted at the number 15,000, uh, because of how she works with her clients. And she said she had a film degree, uh, and so she knows what goes into it, which I didn't really address because I would have been like, well, if you have a film degree, then you know what goes into it. So you know it's it's very valuable and expensive. Um but working with lawyers, she um had communicated that they are very budget conscious. And, you know, how do you justify something like $15,000? So I broke it down and said, okay, your lawyer makes $350 to $550 an hour, and you know, like um they make millions to dozens to hundreds of millions of dollars as an organization. Uh, and we're talking about one fifteen thousand dollar piece, right? And if that brings in one client, and if that one client lifetime value is worth $100,000, that's an 8x return, right? Return on investment for that $15,000 video. If it's a $50,000, or even if it's a $15,000 lifetime value, which I don't think for these major law firms, like $15,000 is lifetime value. You know, we're probably talking millions for some of these customers. So thinking about that, you break it down, you're like, there's a huge value, there's a huge return on investment. And then she just replied shortly. She's like, yeah, they just don't get the ROI. And I was like, ah, I was like, oh my gosh, that's like such a missed opportunity.

Walking Away From Bad-Fit Clients

John Shoemaker 5:05

It's I don't know, like it's enough where we we used to do this a lot, and in some cases it makes sense to do educate, you know, educate your clients and educate the industry. But I'm like, okay, the story that I'll just tell briefly is uh Ni Raleigh, when she worked with us as a producer, she used to work at like a bigger agency in India, and she tells that story about like one time they were going into a client to pitch, and they like walked into the lobby, and after like the handshakes and quick introductions, like the director was like, We're not working with this people, these people, like turned around and left. And we're like, Yeah, that's insane. We don't have that clout. However, I'm like, maybe that's what just needs to start happening. Yeah, you know, it was like somebody's like, Well, I don't really get the ROI. I'd be like, Well, sounds like it's not a good fit. All right, thanks for talking.

Ryan Freng 6:00

Right, I love that. So tired of like um, it's like we're twisting somebody's arm.

John Shoemaker 6:06

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 6:06

Yeah. To convince them, oh my gosh, you will get outsized returns.

John Shoemaker 6:09

Yeah. And and just be like, Well, I guess you don't get it then. That's fine. You know, like I don't I can't, and and it's always gonna be like a strained relationship if you somehow convince them to like maybe try it or whatever. Um, we were talking about this earlier in the kitchen and talking about like I mean, okay, what a lawyer does is valuable. Yeah, so that's okay. But when we make the comparison of like you're billing 400 bucks an hour or something for your services, um I'm not like, well, I don't really like, can we get it for less? Or I don't really see what's the ROI on this gonna be for me. Yeah. But like, less than we're not even talking 400 bucks an hour. We're talking like, hey, would you pay me like a human being, like a reasonable rate? Would you agree to that? Okay, yes. Now let's break down the number of hours I'll spend diving into your content, the hours I'll spend on site with you, filming you, filming interviews, getting to know you, the equipment that I'll bring with me that is an investment that wears out over time.

Ryan Freng 7:16

Understanding the creative, the strategy.

John Shoemaker 7:19

Yeah, that's what this stuff is built on.

Ryan Freng 7:21

Right.

John Shoemaker 7:22

Like we as a company, we you know, we don't have enough clout. We don't have like uh nationally recognized names.

Ryan Freng 7:30

We don't have FU clout. Yeah.

John Shoemaker 7:32

So nationally recognized names. You're not being charged a premium for who we are and the creative we bring. You are being charged based on our experience. This I know how long this stuff takes, I know what goes into it. This is how much it'll cost. And if you don't want to do that, then I fine, then you just don't want to do that video, you know, like that project or whatever it is.

Strategy, Hours, And Real Production Costs

Ryan Freng 7:57

And I think just to go back to like your point of it being a mismatch, like, yeah, just to understand that, like, okay, you you don't have an idea of ROI, you don't see the benefit of it, like, yeah, we're not gonna convince you of it. Like, that's not our role, that's not our job. And like in these discussions, ideally we can help them see their pain points and where they could get with the video, and then they can, you know, bridge themselves uh across there, and our services are are there to help them do that. But if and I think people get to this idea of like, I just need a thing. Yeah, like I need a video. And you ask the question, why? You know, and that's that's a that's a fun discussion too, because I know like it's a slightly different approach that that Scott, our other business partner and I have, where when somebody comes to us and says, I need a video, he's like, let's, you know, let's get them a video, let's sell them a video. And that's a great approach. I have a slightly different approach of you know, just analyzing do they need the video? You know, they say they want this, but is that what actually is good for them or what they need? And so it actually works really well that we kind of come at it from both directions to try to figure out what best could work for them and see if there is something we could start with. But a lot of time people are just like, I want the thing because uh I've heard videos good, or I need a website just because I need one.

John Shoemaker 9:23

There's just there's a it is a mismatch. It's a mismatch of like, okay, you don't understand the value. Yeah, what's the roi on a Coca-Cola commercial or a Nike commercial or a McDonald's commercial? Like, they're gonna spend half a million on some of those spots, right? Maybe close to a million, depending on what it is, especially sports stuff. Right. What's the ROI? Well, they're expecting a pretty huge ROI. We're not talking about a million or half a million, we're talking about 15 grand. I know. What's your ROI? Well, less than Coke, because you're not gonna like do that ad buy that they are, but if you do some sort of ad buy, like that'll be good for you. And then you also need to have a strategy to go with that. What's your ROI? I don't know. Like you've gotta like pursue it and you have to take a piece of media that you create.

Ryan Freng 10:16

Well, and it's gotta, you know, it's gotta create impact, it's gotta have value. You have to feel that, you have to feel the impact and feel the value. But yeah, like calculating it, calculating a qualitative thing, like a lot of people will come to us, you know. I'm trying to phrase this in a way that's not like I'm teaching you because you know this. Uh, but like a lot of people will come to us and they don't have any marketing um and they want something. So, like, what's the what's the ROI from zero to something? Probably pretty huge, you know. Like getting one lead, right? You know, is pretty huge, unless you're selling a five-dollar thing, which most of our B2B clients have uh more expensive products, like a lawyer would be a very expensive product. Um, but zero to something is huge. Now, if somebody's been doing it for a while and they got the engine going, they have a better sense that it's important, but you know, a little bit better production quality or a few more videos, like what's the ROI there? Probably much smaller than company A that's going from nothing to something. And so, you know, if they don't understand that it's immense, the upside um possibility with great video, with great social media and you know, pieces like that, yeah, you're right. We're we're not a good fit.

John Shoemaker 11:34

Well, and the uh and again, you know, the the other thought that came to my mind was like, how much does a billboard cost?

Ryan Freng 11:40

You know, to like just to advertise on it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the actual billboard to advertise on it. A few hundred to a few thousand, depending on the time, few placements.

Brand Equity And The Billboard Question

John Shoemaker 11:48

A few hundred, a few thousand a month, uh ongoing. Um, what's the ROI? I mean, they'll sell you like, oh, we got a hundred thousand views. Well, but I'm actually not even I'm not even trying to rip on the billboards. I'm just making an example of like, you know, this this law firm potential client. What's the ROI? Well, what's the ROI on me knowing more than just the one name Nicola and Fear of the Beard? Like Nicolai and Gruber. I know Gruber, I know Nicol A. Right. Well, I don't know who you are. I don't know this other name. Like, I don't know.

Ryan Freng 12:27

Yeah.

John Shoemaker 12:27

I don't know anything about them. Why should I go with you?

Ryan Freng 12:30

Yeah.

John Shoemaker 12:30

Like in if if if you're booked up and you don't need more clients, we've had that kind of thing too, where people will come and they're like looking for a video. Yeah. And they're like, well, but we're already kind of, it's like, well, I I guess you don't need marketing then. I don't know. I mean, that's the point of it. Like, um, I don't know. It just boggles my mind. I I'm I'm still I'm in this. I I you've transported me from last week right into this new episode in the exact same spot where I'm like, I don't know, masturbated.

Ryan Freng 13:00

I don't know how to tell you. Yeah, yeah. No, I want to I want to keep that energy. And I realize too, tangent, but I'm wearing the shirt from our campaign. So get your shirt today at daretobelieveseries.com or let's backflip.com. These are really cool. Let's see. Can I turn around without it being too weird? What if it was all true?

John Shoemaker 13:19

You got some oh you got the statue in the way. There we go.

Ryan Freng 13:24

Dare to believe, baby. I get so many comments on this shirt. Um, where was I? I was out of state. I was out of state and somebody saw it, and they were like, IHM? And I was like, what? And they like, I think they've they saw the monstrons and somehow made some connection with I don't know. It still doesn't make sense in my mind. They knew because they were former prisoners at Immaculate Heart of Mary, but this somehow made them think of I was like, I don't know. Maybe they saw me there. Maybe that's what it was. It was very confusing, but get your own shirt today. What's the ROI on the shirt? That's what I want to know. Souls, more souls. We got we got fans, we got fans running around with it.

John Shoemaker 14:10

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 14:11

Well, and that's that's interesting. So, like the ROI, what's what's the ROI? So the Dare to Believe series. Here we go. Dare to Believe series. We have one episode and we want to make more. It's an evangelical tool, it is a teaching tool, it is a just you know, piece of good Catholic media that that can be enjoyed by people. What is the ROI on something like that?

John Shoemaker 14:38

That's a good question, Ryan. Uh yeah, I mean that is definitely in the realm of ministry.

Ryan Freng 14:49

Yeah.

John Shoemaker 14:49

The ROI, there's you know, the return on investment is like people. It's conversions. It's you know, that's what it that's what it's about. If it became a full series and we could get that placement somewhere, um, then it could maybe have entertainment value. And then, I mean, I don't know if I'm supposed to say it yet, but it's on a I've submitted it to a particular platform for consideration for distribution. And if it got picked up there, then people who subscribe to that platform, you know, then it would collect royalties as people watched it, right? Because I don't think that's it's not advertising on that platform. Um, so there would be ROI there, you know, in your traditional entertainment media sense. Yeah. Um, but like that's like most a lot of nonprofits. I mean, we'll do projects that are, you know, the expected ROI on this thing is like donor dollars, because I'm trying to tell a story to move hearts and minds. Right, right. But then there's other things that are more like they're kind of teaching, they're kind of inspirational, and that's like a whole different, you know. Yeah, the model there isn't about dollars exactly.

Ministry Metrics And Nonprofit ROI

Ryan Freng 16:08

And like brand equity, yeah. Like there's some brand equity in this, or some some stories we do, or some culture pieces we do for some clients, but that brand equity does have an ROI, but it's it's almost impossible to measure. You know, like if you don't know about a lawyer, a law firm, and then you do, you know, how do you put one dollar you know amount on that? Certainly you could tie it to like lifetime value, but Gruber, Nicola, like if something were to come up, who are you gonna call? Probably one of those, unless you have like another reference, or at least those would be one of them. Yeah, you know. Um, so then thinking about like the Catholic stuff and dare to believe, people use it for programming. You could probably sell it. We're not really in the content creation world, right? So we're figuring it out, which is kind of exciting. Well, that's what we want to do.

John Shoemaker 17:01

And that and that I I kind of wonder if that if we are in the content creation world more than we would say, is like that is the type of marketing that we like to do. It is the type of, you know, when we're talking about short video for your thing. Well, I'm talking about making a story that will make people care. Right. That people will care about.

Ryan Freng 17:22

Right.

John Shoemaker 17:22

Um a 30-second commercial, I don't know. I mean, unless it's funny and crazy and whatever, I'm not that excited about it, you know. Like, um, I guess you could do like a 30-second mini doc, right? You know. But that's the the place I was gonna go and what I was gonna ask is like what is your like what's your favorite brand? Favorite brand?

Ryan Freng 17:53

Ooh, yeah. So just first blush answer on favorite brand. I mean, Apple is just like I get excited when I see things from them. Um I don't know.

John Shoemaker 18:07

Yeah. And I guess where I was just gonna go with that is like w the next question is why? Yeah. Like, why is that your favorite brand? Or why and I'd have to think about it a little bit.

Ryan Freng 18:17

It's like the joie d'avive, the the certain something that they have created, the mystique that they've created, and the, you know, we're the technology company for artists and creators, and the white and the minimalism, like they've just done such a good job, it just feels like something that I want.

Content That Makes People Care

John Shoemaker 18:37

Yeah. And I'm I mean, maybe it's just that like back to the word mismatch, maybe there's just a mismatch, but like some of the clients or they are don't turn into clients that we talk to that don't get this or are like asking about well, what's ROI here, whatever, they're not getting it. Like, do people love your brand? Are they just like right now? The the law firm that I have the most brand like excitement for is Nicola. I've never worked with him. I don't, you know, w call lawyers for a lot of reasons. Yeah, but I just I'm committed, I like that brand.

Ryan Freng 19:19

Yeah.

John Shoemaker 19:20

Um, I like what he's putting out there, I like the messaging. I'm feel like I'm getting a bit of his personality from that, you know.

Ryan Freng 19:27

And I feel like you're seeing him probably daily, yeah, like or every other day on the billboard, on TV, friggin' gas station pump TV or whatever, like everywhere. Yeah. What's the ROI that you know Nicola?

John Shoemaker 19:43

Yeah. So and like that takes now, that takes a lot of money and ad dollars, you know, what he's doing, like the amount of placement that he has. But the creative is really well done too. Right. You know, and like he's paid for good creative, good stuff. Storytelling, good branding. Um and that's just what I mean. I the reason it's so hard to talk about is because you're like, it's just obvious, just straight out in front. Like it is, it is marketing. That is marketing.

Ryan Freng 20:14

Well, and that's like that's that's what I said with this this woman who has an agency for law firms. I was like, if they don't understand that, then it sounds like they don't see the value at marketing at all. So I was like, you know, fight the good fight. Um good luck, Godspeed. I don't remember what I said. Yeah. But like, yeah, if you don't see that there can be an ROI, especially something so small, like $15,000 when you're when those companies make millions or dozens of millions or hundreds of millions. Like there's another law firm in town that I was looking up. Um they have 350, uh, they have uh a space here, a space in Milwaukee, and then a couple of places around the country, 350 lawyers, and what did Chet GPT estimate? Like a few hundred million to maybe a billion in revenue or something like that, like um, or upper 100 million. I was like, yeah, yeah. And like no social media marketing, no video marketing. It's like, wow, you know, take three percent of that, right? So 10% is a great number for marketing budget, but take a fraction of that, 3% of 100 million. Do you know what that is? 300,000, 3 million, 3%, 3 million. I got there. Uh so 3 million, you know, for your advertising, and you know, maybe half of that can be video, 1.5 million for video. Can you imagine what we could do with 1.5 million in video for somebody? Like we could take over the world. Yeah, and and I no one would think of anybody else but them.

Do People Love Your Brand

John Shoemaker 21:55

Like, is there a company that you know, maybe it has to like the one of the challenges with marketing is that it's often tied in with like business strategy. So we've talked to some of our clients, and we're like, okay, well, can we make this offer? Can I say this in your marketing? Can we say, you know, make these claims? And that's kind of has to do with your business model and how you charge and what you can do. Um, the other thing is like, do you want to grow and expand and whatever? You know, like is there a business that you know has endeavored into some large you know, growth scaling operation without having marketing be a part of that? You know? So like this that the bigger law firm you mentioned, you know, like do they need market? People think they don't need marketing because they're just like, I don't know, you know, the business is just like flying in. They were like, well, great, then that's fine. You will stay at your size without any marketing, right? If you if you put that kind of money behind it, yeah, yeah, you would explode. And so then that's a whole business thing. Well, then you need to be ready for that and you need to figure out how you're gonna scale and when you're gonna open more branches and all that. So, like it's just it's a tough thing because it's like I can't make all those decisions for you as a business.

Budgets, Scale, And Growth Mindset

Ryan Freng 23:27

And and so that makes me think Alex Hermozzi, who's kind of one of these business gurus, he runs acquisitions.com. He used to run Gym Launch and has helped thousands of gym owners turn around their gyms and be very profitable. Now he does that for businesses, and then when they're successful, he buys them. Kind of arbitrage of business, um, worth, I don't know, $500 million or something like that. So his goal is to give away all the information, all the learnings that it took for him to get where he is, so that other businesses uh can grow and get connected, and then he can eventually or eventually potentially buy them. So it's like altruism and capitalism together, which I really like. And he trains, so he I like him a lot. But he, you know, he kind of shares like scaling a business like from zero to one million in revenue. It's about promotion, which I think a lot of businesses, there's a lot of businesses in that area, and they don't do promotion, they shy away from that. Um, and then he says from one to 10 million, it's product, and then 10 to 100, it's people, you know, because you kind of dial those in in that order. It doesn't mean you don't have promotion from one to 10 or from 10 to 100, but you should have already figured that out. That should be the first thing you figure out. So when I think about these big organizations that don't have any, it's it's like despite the marketing that that they're that big. So they obviously have very good product and very good people, you know. And now it's like, okay, well, you're 100 million. Like, do you want to be a 500 million, like 300? Like, what's reasonable with decent marketing if you have the operations? You know, because again, like the these law firms, specifically this other one in town that a friend works for, if if they have a hundred million dollar revenue, you know, and they want to spend 3%, so $3 million on their marketing, and we can use half of that for video, and then the other half is digital, social, paid advertising, right? We can create so much content and distribute so much content. We could be, I mean, like what Ho Chunk did with their commercials that everyone sees us in, we could do that a few times over for them.

John Shoemaker 25:47

Right.

Ryan Freng 25:48

Um, and there's there's gonna be no business owner, no anybody in the state, and you know, probably the state. I don't know if we could do national, but you know, certainly regionally who doesn't know them, and then nationally, probably as well, since they have seven different locations or something like that.

John Shoemaker 26:07

I mean, I so some of it comes down or comes back to business and running your business correctly. Like so had a discussion with a potential client who had an overrun in budget on a project they were working on, not related to marketing or or video or anything like that. I'm gonna keep it very abstract for now for this person client. And they had an overrun there of like a million. Oh my gosh. And now they're looking for marketing and video, and they're like, we're nickel and diming in the sub-10,000 range. I'm like, I I don't know what to tell you. Like, I that doesn't make any sense. Like, why yeah, so so like when people don't like, okay, you need to have you know, say that law firm, like they're you know, multiple millions, like, well, but are they are do they have it saved, you know, earmarked for marketing, or are they burning all of it? I doubt it.

Ryan Freng 27:18

I mean, I don't I don't think they're burning it, but like just investing it other places. Using it in some other way. Yeah, because I think I think marketing is like we we need maybe a better term of like the redheaded stepchild, but like the I don't know, the unwanted business need. Like, especially when you have a great product and you have great people and word of mouth, people are like, we don't need marketing, right? But if they want to grow or be more than just what they are, marketing can really enhance that. So I think you know, it's it's the area of marketing that gets discounted the most. So, like you're saying, a million overrun over here in some production, you know, that's gonna get written off, and they're like, uh, well, that's the cost of doing business. And then they're like, 10,000, can you do 5,000? Like, what like go to a law firm and the law firm's like, yeah, you know, this whole thing and our retainer, and you're gonna pay us 15 grand a month, and it's gonna take a few years. And they're like, Can you do five grand? Like, no, like you could have somebody who's not as good.

John Shoemaker 28:23

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 28:23

So I think it's I think it's a mismatch, misunderstanding of marketing, especially since like what what kind of training goes into marketing? Like, you don't really need training, you could just do it and learn online and and whatnot. So I think to some degree it gets discounted the skill and art of it. And so we just got to get better at helping them see their pain points and then what could be solved by video and marketing. And then they they'll make the the leap to the ROI.

John Shoemaker 28:53

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 28:54

We don't have to tell them.

Promotion, Product, People: Scaling Lessons

John Shoemaker 28:55

You don't need you you don't need training, you could just learn it all online. I'm like, you could say that about a lot of things. Uh there are industries that you know they just make a barrier. I would, I would say that about most industries. They just make a barrier and say, well, you have to have this license in order to do it. But like actually, you could gain all those skills. Like, I mean, I'm I'm I shouldn't trash on other industries because I'm like, you gotta take our industry seriously. But like my HVAC wasn't working, and I diagnosed that it just needed free on. And I could look it up, I could figure out exactly what I needed to do. I am I technically can't do it because I don't have a HVAC license. Sure. So I'm like not allowed, you know.

Ryan Freng 29:39

I mean, fitness and nutrition is like huge, and there's like huge certifications you can get. You can get undergrad degrees, you can get postgrad degrees, like you can get certifications that cost thousands of dollars. You can get a certification that costs a hundred dollars. And none of it really matters as long as you kind of have the knowledge and it can help people, yeah, right. Even the insurances don't care. Like your coaching insurance doesn't care if you have a certification or not, because it's really just a piece of paper that says, yeah, this organization got some money out of you. Hopefully, you got some learning. So I don't have any certifications. I actually just did a bunch of coursework in the fitness and nutrition realm. And I was like, Yeah, I don't want to pay $1,500 for this certification. I'll just have the knowledge. So that's a that's another industry like that. And I mean, that's that's interesting too. Like, what's the ROI of being healthy? What's the value of being healthy, right? Um, if somebody's convinced of their need to overcome their health challenges, then they've already, you know, come to uh some kind of impact or value or outcome, you know, put a value on it. And it's easy. If somebody doesn't, they're like, yeah, why would I pay thousands of dollars for this thing? I just do it myself. Like, have you? Are you? You know? And I think marketing gets a little bit like that too. It's like, well, the kid with the phone did it, so why is it $15,000? It's like, well, do you want the kid with the phone? Like, you just hire the kid with the phone. And I I've talked to people and recommended that before too. Yeah. Uh, but on the other side, it's like, well, do you want strategy and creative and experience and longevity and somebody you can call on the phone and somebody who will reliably be there? Uh and a team who's gonna work for you. You know, if you want that, that costs a little bit more money. And not that much.

John Shoemaker 31:30

Yeah. Just a little bit more. It's it's the question of like, why do people come to you? Like, why are they paying you for your services or your products or whatever? And then they explain that, and you're like, yeah, that's what marketing is doing. Like you had that conversation with me in person one time, and marketing does that with all the people that you can't meet every single day. And you know, like it's as simple as that.

Ryan Freng 31:58

Like, just I can't even, I don't yeah, I know, because it's so it's like such a no-brainer to us. Um, I do kind of like the the unsale or downsell of like, I don't know if this is you know right, a good fit, you know, um, kind of communicating in that way and and getting them to work up to a to wanting it. Because again, if we somehow convince them that they need something, it's not it's a fraction of the power as like them convincing themselves.

John Shoemaker 32:28

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 32:29

Like, and if they're not convinced, like we're not gonna have as great of an outcome.

John Shoemaker 32:33

And they're gonna be in prove it mode the whole time. Yeah, you know, yeah. And and you know, it can be proved, but like marketing is not in an exact science. Uh actually it's more like a science, you know, like it it is that hypothesis, yeah, experiment, take data, make adjustments, keep working, see what you know.

Misallocated Spend And Marketing Blind Spots

Ryan Freng 32:58

Um you make the data say whatever you want. Well, and that's that's interesting with like ROI and like qualitative data versus quantitative data. And even tying it back to like the legal stuff, I didn't even get into like, okay, well, what's traffic like? What's you know, web visits, form fill, and all that stuff, because at the end of the day, the statistics overwhelmingly show how well video facilitates engagement. So sharing uh click-throughs, website, time on site, um, sharing products, sharing brands, you know, all that is enhanced with video. So that's that's maybe a little bit more of the science of it, and the quantitative part. But the art where the the rubber hits the road, the pudding is made, is like, okay, well, how does that turn into something useful for the company? Right. And sometimes you can define that more than others, and that's that's the tricky bit.

John Shoemaker 33:58

Yeah.

Ryan Freng 33:58

But like with the law firm, it's like if any of this gets you one lead, you know, even if you invested again, if our LTV is $100,000, maybe that's too much. $20,000. LTV lifetime value, because you're very small and you gotta get a bunch of clients, uh, and one video is $15,000, and that gets you one, you've already made five on top of that. And then if that gets you a second client, you're printing money. But and I take her word for it.

John Shoemaker 34:32

That's what we need to put out what we just need to be like, well, do you want to print money or not? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's I have an offer that will print money for you.

Ryan Freng 34:42

This helps me uh think about the next podcast we'll do is like marketing trends that we hate. Yeah. I think that'll be fun. So, all right, ROI. Anything else? We're just uh I don't know, I don't want to say we're complaining, we're exploring in a very strongly opinionated way our disdain, you know, for just not understanding, which maybe that's mean. We should be more empathetic. Maybe not, maybe we should be less empathetic. I think so. And then just walk out of the room.

John Shoemaker 35:19

It's like, what was it? It's probably a mechanic sort of thing. No, it wasn't a mechanic, it was someone else. I think it was this H V I C situation, so air conditioning wasn't working. I was like, Can I do it myself? Yeah, I can't get it, I don't have the license. Called somebody, they came out. Well, I wasn't home. I think my wife was in the backyard or whatever, like you know, taking care of flowers or something. And they they came around the house, they looked at the thing, they did something to it, and then they were like, All right, it'll be 350 bucks. And I I'm like, we there was we didn't negotiate this at all. I didn't talk about whether the value is valuable or not. And like I look at it later, I'm like, okay, I know you charge this much for the Freon, and then you probably charge a minimum hour of time, even if it took less than that. So I'm like, okay, I basically, you know, understand it. But I'm like, there's so many, there's a lot of industries that kind of blow my mind. I'm like, I can't just like go to our clients and be like, hey, it took a lot more. Here's how much the budget is, you know, that like we're always like in that in that realm of having to. I don't know.

The “Kid With A Phone” Versus A Team

Ryan Freng 36:37

So well, that's that's with service industry. Like, I don't, I don't know, or the trades, maybe they do have a lot of problems. We're just too kind to them because we're in the service industry too. And we're like, okay, all right, well, I'll pay you because you did your thing and I understand, yeah, cost money. But maybe there's a lot of people who don't. They're like, well, we didn't talk about this, so I'm not gonna pay you anything, which is not unreasonable. Yeah, you know, there should be conversation beforehand. And so our car got totaled, so that's that's the new new bit. It's totaled. And they're like, okay, it's gonna be over 10,000 to repair it, and it's only worth 9,000 or whatever. Uh, and so we'll give you, I don't remember how much it was, 10,500 or something like that. Um, and I was like, Can you send me the the workup, like the the work order or the you know, just the diagnostic? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, I can send that, but just be aware, like, you know, this is just how much they saw without opening it up. And then if they open it up, it's likely more. And so that's why since it reached the value that we total it and they do do all this. And I was like, ah, that's really interesting. Cause like, if I was a car person or knew a car person, I could probably be like, Hey, what do you think? Or you can even, I can even take the car back and they take like a salvage amount out of it, because I think they would sell the car to salvage. So they take that from you. So I think they'd give me 8,500 or 8,000 and I get the car. Um, so if I knew somebody or had the capability, maybe I could make something out of it. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, and I don't have the skill and I don't have the energy or mental space. I'm just like, yeah, okay, well, probably just take the amount and we'll go. And we'll trust that you know, I can't get a second opinion. Yeah, I can't tell you no. I can't negotiate and say, no, it's actually worth $14,000 to me. Um because you just don't, you can't.

John Shoemaker 38:31

Yeah. So that's the word trust. And I that could probably launch us into an entire additional episode so we don't have to go. At the end of the day, it's it's gotta be trust, right? Like, um, go to the law firm and you're like, it's how much per hour, whatever. And you're like, well, I need your help in this situation, you know, business or personal or whatever it is. And I'm gonna work with you because I trust that you're gonna help me get through it. Like you hire us to work on your video or marketing or whatever, and you trust that like it is in my interest for this to be very successful for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't trust me, don't work with me. Yeah, there's no number that will fix that. Yeah, and like I think that's that's probably just the direction that a lot of this stuff needs to go is like, well, if you don't trust me to do it, then just don't. Like that's fine. Like, yeah, it's not gonna work out if you enter into this begrudgingly paying, you know, something that you nickel and dimed that I don't feel great about, you're like second guessing whether you should have spent it, and you don't trust me from the from the outset, like it's not gonna work.

Hypotheses, Data, And Iteration

Ryan Freng 39:45

Yeah, it's not gonna be good. Yeah. For all the reasons that we've talked about over the last half an hour. Yeah. So I think that that's good. We can wrap up our ROI discussion. Um, closing thoughts? Anything else? Trust. Just Do it. Just do it. You can trademark that. You can't.

John Shoemaker 40:08

Yeah, you truly can't.

Ryan Freng 40:10

Thanks again to the CMA for this award. I don't know. We should have an ending. Do we have an ending, Maria? Do we have an ending? Is there an ending to this?