TMI Talk with Dr. Mary

Episode 44: Grief, Fascia & the Nervous System: How Your Body Feels What You Don’t Say with Sue Hitzmann

• mary g • Season 1 • Episode 44

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Dr. Mary sits down with Sue Hitzmann—An internationally recognized educator in neurofascial science, manual therapist, exercise physiologist, and a New York Times Best Seller.

They dive into how fascia is more than just “connective tissue”—it's a sensory and structural system that holds the impact of stress, trauma, and unprocessed emotions. 

They also talk about grief: Sue shares what she learned after the loss of her husband, and Dr. Mary opens up about navigating the recent death of her brother. Together, they speak honestly about how they've found ways to keep living—and even experiencing joy—through it all.

In this episode, they discuss:

  • The role of fascia in nervous system regulation, movement, and emotional processing
  • How emotions like grief, anger, and fear can physically show up in the body
  • What “self-care” really means
  • The difference between pain and suffering—and how mindset, movement, and awareness shape both
  • How to support your clients (and yourself) when emotions surface

Whether you're a healthcare provider, movement professional, or just someone trying to feel more at home in your body, this conversation blends science, story, and soul in a way that might just change how you approach pain, emotions, and healing.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:20 Meet Sue Hitzmann: Her Journey and the MELT Method
01:21 Diving into Fascia: Understanding Its Importance
03:33 Sue's Personal Story: From Pain to Discovery
07:26 The Role of Fascia in Health and Longevity
09:03 Challenges in Medical Understanding of Fascia
12:56 The Nervous System and Its Impact on Health
23:24 Managing Stress and Emotional Health
32:08 The Broken Healthcare System and Insurance Issues
34:27 Advocating for Her Mother’s Care
35:13 Understanding the Healthcare System
35:47 The Reality of Suffering and Grief
36:20 Choosing Resilience Over Suffering
37:56 Sharing Personal Stories About Grief
39:17 Living in the Present Moment
49:11 Managing Stress and the Nervous System
52:31 Embracing Emotions and Healing
01:02:38 The Importance of Self-Care
01:03:38 Conclusion and Contact Information


You can learn more about Sue and her work at: https://meltmethod.com

Workshop:

The “Woo Woo” Explained: How Energetics, Fascia, Lymph, and the Nervous System Impact Movement for Rehab Professionals

Dont worry, it will be recorded and sent to you if you can't make it live.

📅 May 6th, 2025

⏰ 6PM CST/ 4PM PST / 7PM EST

📍On zoom (will be recorded)

You can learn more and sign up here. I hope you can join us! 

If you are a health or movement professional and want to stay in touch with future episodes, webinars, courses, events and more. Subscribe to my email list below:

drmarygrimberg.com

I’ll see you in a week!

Audio Only - All Participants-2:

Hello everyone and welcome back to TMI Talk with Dr. Mary. I'm your host, Dr. Mary. In today's episode, we're going to be diving into fascia, looking at health from a wide lens, understanding the nervous system, emotions, and more. Before I dive into what we're going to go into, I want to introduce our special guest. So our guest is Sue Hitzmann. Sue is a New York times bestselling author and internationally recognized educator, manual therapist, and exercise physiologist. She is the owner and developer of the melt method. And her story is that when no doctor could explain her pain, she was just offered pills to help her pain. And in this case, it was her plantar fasciitis. She dove into researching what causes pain to become chronic, especially in somebody that was healthy and fit. And she also discovered how this completely changed her life and the understanding of longevity of health and well being. She helped herself out of pain and has helped others around the world live a more active, healthy, and resilient life. What started out as homework for her clients turned into the MELT method, a simple self care practice to address the missing link to living a resilient life. So in this episode, we dive into a bunch of different things. We dive into fascia and how it's so much more than what we thought it is and how it's often ignored in our healthcare system and in many aspects of health and how the fascia interacts with the lymphatic system and our nervous system. We also jump into how emotions and stress affect our body and how stress there's so much on how to de stress, but the reality is, is we're going to have stress in life and it's how we recover from it. And in that, we also discuss our experiences with grief. She had lost her husband many years ago, and I recently lost my brother, and in that, how we both have chose to move through those emotions and everything surrounding grief. And despite all of the things that happen in life, how we can develop a mindset that allows us to be resilient to the constant, ever flowing changes of life that can really help us reframe. the way life happens and how we can look at it as a beautiful gift that has been given to us and how we can live our life to its fullest and allow emotions to occur and move through life versus letting it control us. So without further ado, we'll jump into our episode.

Ready to tackle the topics that you've been curious about but never felt comfortable asking. With a straightforward, no nonsense perspective on life blended with candid stories and a healthy dose of humor, Dr. Mary Grinberg cuts through the fluff and addresses the conversations we all need to have on TMI talk where no subject is to taboo our bodies, our minds, and everything in between. Now, here's your host, Dr. Mary.

Audio Only - All Participants:

welcome, Sue, to the podcast. Excited to have you on. Thanks so much. We're going to talk all things fascia. I'm sure and more. Yeah, you were one of the OG people too. The whole fascia industry and how it relates to health and movement and pain. And if you wanna dive in and really kind of explain a little bit about your story and what led you to where you're at now. I mean, mine's probably not a uncommon story for most people who get into healing arts or even the fascial community. When I talk to a lot of people, they have a very similar story. Mine is, I started out when I was younger. Uh, I had a great grandmother who was super spry and then All of a sudden one year she was this lady in a, um, a convalescent home. And I don't think I really realized what it was to age and die until that moment. And looking at all those old people with my very, I was maybe 10 and my, my cousin was about five and these old people reaching out to her. And I was like, Don't touch her, whatever that is that they have. And, uh, my great grandmother, when we were with her, she kissed me on the cheek and she said, never get old. And when I left there, I said to my aunt, what happened to great grandma? And she said, she just got old. And I said, well, are you going to get old? She said, yeah, I said, am I going to get old? She said, yes. I said, well, how do you stop that from happening? And she said, you don't. And I thought, well, there's gotta be a way. So my introduction to what I perceived as being a way to maintain longevity. We're people like Jack LaLanne and Jane Fonda because I'm a seventies kid. And so I kind of bit into this idea that if you ate right and you exercise, you were going to lead a healthy, active. Life. So, I got into fitness when I was very young and my first legitimate job was as a group exercise instructor. And I went on to study collegiately in exercise science and then I discovered neuromuscular therapy and cranial sacral therapy, visceral manipulation, and I kind of had a lot in my toolbox. I was working on high performance athletes, getting them out on the field faster. Thought I knew a lot in my mid 20s as most 20 year olds do. And then, uh, I woke up one day and the bottom of my foot hurt me and I thought I must have stepped on a piece of glass. And what started out as this foot pain, it didn't get better like a sprained ankle, right? You know, like when you sprain your ankle, it's really bad and then it gets better over time. Well, this got worse and worse and worse. And it. became this body wide ache and fatigue that I couldn't shake. It affected everything. It affected my sleep, my mood, my back, my jaw. I just was a mess. And like a lot of people, I went down the rabbit hole to try to discover what the problem was. And when I went to doctors, they either told me that it wasn't unusual or I got diagnosed with plantar fasciitis. I had one doctor do MRIs and brain scans because he thought it might be lupus. And it was just, I was all over the place. I was frustrated. I'm exhausted and nothing was really answering the question. But the first diagnosis being plantar fasciitis, I remember sitting very clearly in my living room thinking plantar fasciitis, fasciitis, inflamed fascia. What is inflamed fascia and, and there's no exercise to fix it. Like, how do you fix inflamed fascia? And what was the luck of the draw for me was, uh, in the late nineties, Google became a thing. So the very first word I typed into the internet was fascia. And I discovered this emerging field of neuroscience and fascial researchers that were actually looking at fascia on a cellular level to try to understand not only its relationship. to pain, but it's relationship to longevity and aging. And I went down this rabbit hole and I just never came back the same. And, um, I started implementing the research and tried to figure out what was the way I could take the science and apply it to my body. And that's where I got introduced to some of the light touch therapeutic techniques like cranial work and, um, structural integration, a little heavier into techniques. It sort of sent me down this road. to discovery. And what got me out of pain, I started sharing with my clients. And I went from working on high performance athletes to just the general population. And when 9 11 happened and people had emotional trauma and physical pain, and these light touch therapeutic techniques were working, it really gave me a new understanding of a, aspect of the body that I really didn't learn anything about collegiately, which is fascia. And I just always thought of fascia as being that passive packing material that you chucked in the bucket to get to the good stuff when you were doing anatomical study. And I never really thought of it as being relevant. And now, 20 years later, I'm a founding member of the Fascial Research Society. I've written a couple of books on fascia and the nervous system and its relationship to that. I've got thousands of instructors worldwide who teach this method called MELT. And I'm out trying to explain to people that there is a aspect of the body that is Very, um, misunderstood, not learned about enough. It's not really talked about very much. And while it's popular, maybe more now than ever before. I think that there's still a lot of research that's needed to uncover all of the roles that fascia plays in our overall health and well being. Oh, I mean, I, I agree. It was between fascia and the lymphatic system and pelvic floor dysfunction, those are things that are just. Related. Yeah. And then on top of it, they're not talked about in the medical field. I mean, it's emerging right now more and you're like, Hey, I've been doing this 20 years. I've been, you know, I'm sure you got down about it. Yes. Yes. You're like, you guys listen, listen. And I think it's been a huge disservice because if you know, there's this debate, even in the PT world, like, what are you doing? Why are you working on fascia or this or that? Do you, we literally did cadaver lab where we cut through fascia and look, it was thick and you have to like slowly kind of peel it apart. You can't just get straight to the muscle and it's really interesting to me that it's just, how can we just ignore this like a massive. piece of it. And it's, it's, it's the most abundant material in the entire human system. And it is the least researched or studied. And it really, and I know you call me like a, you know, like a trailblazer or whatever, but the researchers and the scientists that have really, you know, Tom Findlay, who took me under his wing in some ways of his. of his science. And every time I had a question, I would pose it to Tom and he would just come back with research and be like, read these research papers and then get back to me. And it sent me down this really incredible road to understanding that a lot of the research that's actually out there is either misused or isn't clear enough to make a deep understanding of Of all of the roles that fascia plays, but you're right. I mean, it is emerging more and more and more people are talking about it. The problem is a lot of people talk about it and the, and what they're saying is too big of a leap because they're taking cellular science and, uh, microscopic research and trying to spin it in a macro level view, and there's a gap. And I feel like I'm one of those people trying to. Fill the gap to explain how they connect because the small stuff definitely explains the big stuff like posture, alignment, movement, et cetera. So it is a field that I feel very near and dear, but the researchers that are out there, Robert Sleip, Tom Finley, who is now gone, but so many of these researchers who are. really trying to educate the world so that more people can live an abundant life. I think that that's, um, a pretty noble thing. So I'm just more of a messenger. I'm the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger. Well, I find that with just a lot of the nervous system work. Like, I, I like look at some of this research. I'm like, Oh my gosh, some of these people have been doing this for like, Uh, like some research has been like many hundreds of years. Yeah. Even looking at certain things about frequencies and how that affects the body and how treating with certain different types of modalities in the, and helping the nervous system and the body and understanding how trauma affects the body. I'm like, these people have been shouting this for decades. Yeah. Yeah. And here I am taking on all this thinking it's life changing, I'm like, I can't imagine what it's been like to just sit there and just like watch the world just suffer unnecessarily without being able to kind of get it out, you know, and, and those researchers, they were doing this before YouTube and social media and, and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can look in, in books where, I mean, Vesalius, this is in the 1500s was looking at fascia and writing about it. But I think when technology came out and when we really started using microscopes and looking at cells, we got very focused about what was going on inside the cells. And we forgot about how cells communicate integrin to integrin. In the, you know, in the between the cells and then in the extracellular matrix, where's the inter intra extracellular conversation happening? And I think that that has been. You know, both epiphanies on so much of science to understand how cells mutate and change and adapt the mitochondria, et cetera. Meta, you know, metabolism is a huge conversation, hormones. But if we're not looking at fascia and, and really looking at it on the, on the microscopic level, like how Dr. JC Comberto looks at fascia on a cellular level and says, you know, This is a system that is communicating, it's a communication network, uh, and, and cells rely on a stable environment to function efficiently. So if the environment, just like our environment, if you're living in a not so great environment, you're not in great relationships, you're not happy with your external environment, how are you going to feel on the inside? Well, that's kind of every cell in your body is like a mini you living in an environment that's not. It's not, it's not, it's not, uh, stable and it's not, uh, easy for cells to communicate and cells that don't communicate. It's kind of like a relationship. If you stop communicating with your partner, the relationship ends. And I think that this is why so many people get in a state of suffering is that their relationship with themselves is broken. Oh, so much, so much. And so much of health is, is like you were saying at the beginning, like diet and exercise and all that stuff. And people are like, Oh, well, I'm doing all those things. And well, what's the environment like? Like, are you stressed out from work? Are you in a relationship? That's just not going well. Do you feel supported? You know, and. It's, it's just crazy to me that it's 2025. And I feel like we're, you know, you've, like I said, you've been talking about it for a long time. And like, I just feel like we're just now talking about it. And it was something that I was even unaware of until I got sick. And it was like, Oh, this is a lifestyle thing. This isn't, I can eat gluten free and dairy free all day. And like, if I am showing up in a toxic environment, it doesn't matter. You know, I feel like we're missing, we're missing the point. You know, we're adding more stress, like, oh, dang it, I ate gluten. I shouldn't have, Hey, some people can't tolerate gluten. That's fine. But it's like, my point is more of like, we're so focused on these microscopic things, kind of like what you're describing is like the cellular level. It's like, we're looking at it. So just isolated that, Hey, we're a huge, massive organ, like, or like we are, we are, are multiple tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of cells. Right. And we are directly affected by the environments we are in. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff going on under our skin, you know, and I think that people really have a belief sometimes that they're in control of their bodies. And I'm like, are you really, is it true? I don't know, because 98 percent of what is allowing you to live is functioning on an autonomic level. And it has nothing to do with your voluntary control or conscious awareness. And we take that for granted until something goes wrong. And then here's the big kick, is that we seek outside of ourselves a solution for a problem that's going on inside of our body that we haven't even bothered to investigate in the first place. So you seek outside of yourself a solution for something going on inside you already. It's like, do you go in and do you think to yourself, well, what am I really doing to maintain my health, my wellbeing, my resilience, my emotional agility? What, what am I doing? And a lot of people will be like, well, I eat gluten free. I'm like, okay, there's a start. There's so much more, right? There's just so many things we need to learn. Well, that's what's taught though, you know, it's like, I was unaware of this because you're just like, oh, you go to your doctor, the doctor's trained, they're supposed to know, right, and evidence based medicine is you, the, the, the practitioner, and then research, and so we're missing, like, one of the biggest pieces, it's the person that lives 24 7 inside this body, they're, you can get the information and, and interpret it yourself, but the issue, I think, is when we go external right away, Is that, hey, well, sitting with like, what is it? What do I think is going on? And then kind of getting these second, these opinions like, okay, well, now I go to the specialist. Like, what are they saying? Right. Okay. That aligns with what I originally thought. So that feels good. There are so many times in medicine where people are like, I knew something was off, but they kept telling me I'm fine. I'm like, listen to that. Listen to your body. Well, and also, even when you go to a specialist, a specialist is going to. tell you from their specialist lens what your problem is. But, and then they're going to tell you from their specialist lens how to fix it. So if you want a surgery, go see a surgeon, because their answer is a surgical procedure. If you want. medicine, go to a medical practitioner, go to your, go to your general practitioner, and they're going to give you a pill. But if what you want to do is really uncover a, why you have a problem, there is this underlying issue in fascia that is. Not seen on M. R. I.'s x rays in your blood tests or anything that plays a significant role in pain becoming chronic. And that was what I learned when I, you know, again, I was fit and healthy. I was, you know. I was as lean as you could be. I was like 11 percent body fat. I made the cover of magazines. I had an international bootcamp video. I mean, I'm doing what is healthy and fit. I had a pristine diet. Um, I slept well as far as I knew, but, um, when my body started breaking down. It was, I mean, it was really perplexing to me, but it was also extremely frustrating because you almost resented. It's like, I shouldn't be the person. It's like somebody getting cancer. They say, why me? And I'm like, why not you? Right. Why, why isn't, why is it? But maybe what it is is for us to learn something because our, our bodies, our minds, our spirit, our souls need to. Learned this thing so that we can elevate the frequency of the whole universe, which is what the whole purpose of life is all about in the first place. Right? So fascia in and of itself, I mean, that's kind of what we were talking about at the beginning. I mean, we can go down any rabbit hole you want, but when I saw fascia, when I first understood it, I saw it just like I said, is a packing material. It was just the stuff outside of the good stuff that supported, protected and stabilized. And that's what it is. Fascia supports, protects, and stabilizes everything in your body. But it's not just your muscles and your bones. Fascia, on a microscopic level, just like we said at the beginning, it stabilizes cells. It manages the stability of your nerves, your blood vessels. It supports your lymphatic system, your digestive system, your endocrine system. I mean, fascia is, in a sense, one gigantic endocrine gland. So it is part of the endocrine system. And that means that it's part of your health. It's part of your vitality. It's part of what keeps you feeling young and feeling stable. Uh, so if fascia is not operating as a stable environment, you know, again, everything breaks down and then when things break down, like your gut is a bothering you, you can't digest food anymore, you're exhausted all day. You're constipated, you're aggravated, you have depression, you don't sleep well. Well, now what you do is you take a pill, a pill, a pill, a pill, a pill for all those things. But what we're missing is there's this root cause of fascia not acting as a tension compression management system. It loses its efficiency. And when fascia doesn't manage tension and compression, that means that stress Is damaging the body and, and not just physical stress, like I could tie fascia to everything, emotional stress, physical stress, chemical stress, neurological stress. If stress is incoming, which is your life, all incoming information is stress. There is a system that helps to stabilize that stress. And fascia plays a leading role and, and in one of the two primary systems that it really helps is your lymphatic system and your nervous system. And so when your nervous system declines, or your lymphatic system declines, you either suffer from neurological issues, meaning sensory motor delay, your muscles become inhibited, you get out of balance, you don't feel good on a macroscopic level, but on a lymphatic level, Now, you're not digesting food, transporting it, utilizing it, or eliminating toxins and waste efficiently. Now, you become a cesspool of stuck stress, is what I call that, stuck stress. And once stress is accumulating, you just need one little blow of air and you tip over the edge. And now you have a dis ease, or disease, you have a problem. So I really think that it's not a panacea, it's not like the The one thing is like, if we could just understand fascia, like a hundred percent, we would know the answers to everything. And I don't think that that's true. I think that the nervous system itself plays. a primary role in our existence and the autonomic nervous system, the subset of the entire nervous system. I try to explain that to people. There's only one nervous system, but to understand it, we break it down. Central nervous system, peripheral somatosensory, autonomic, sympathetic, parasympathetic, enteric. Like we go down this rabbit hole of how many nervous systems we have, but they're all under that one umbrella. That system and how it operates and all of those subsets is critical to aging well, to feeling good, to keeping your mindset positive, and living an abundant life. Well, it's, yeah, the nervous system is the foundation. It's, it's the communication. It's how, and so, it's diving into what you were just saying before is so much of, It's, it determines like the state of our life. Like, how are we, why are we chronically dysregulated? And the thing that's really hard is the environment that we live in is like, dysregulation, it feels normal. So it's like, I'm fine. I feel okay. And, and, and it's. So interesting to be before and after not like I'm at some destination because life is continually lifing but in that there is that like I can feel when I'm dysregulated now, and then I know when I'm out and so oftentimes people are constantly in the state of stress that then an illness is what is Causes them to kind of go deeper, right? And that was something that was in my case, too. But it's easy to be angry about it. And, and, and I know it's incredibly frustrating. And there was a period of time where I was like, man, you know, I, why did my body fail me? And what I'm learning is the body is giving you messages because it wants you to live your fullest life. And then the spirituality and the energetics come in, right? Of like, hey, if we're feeling aligned and where we are. And a lot of people don't even, uh, like in the medical field, we don't even talk about energy. And I'm like, no, I actually just watched this YouTube, um, video with a, uh, radio or a radiologist talking about like the science behind energy and EEGs and EKGs. We are literally using energy right now to study the brain and the heart. So if you want modern science, it's there and how your frequency of how your body is emitting energy. People can feel it up to like four feet away from you too. And so it's not woo, it's literally science. We are literally made of cells that communicate and they communicate through this. And so if you're dysregulated constantly, it's hard to know what's going on because we're just in this, you know, and it's, it's worsening with. Social like with a lot of the news and like both both political party is just like really emphasizing and it's like okay Well, what's the actual truth like somebody break it down for me, too And so if we don't even know that that's causing this regulation, too It's just it can be so many aspects beyond what we think is generic health. Yeah yeah, I think we also need to realize that you know when I I was just talking on a podcast about this that You know, you'll see in magazines, things that talk about de stressing or abolish your stress, eliminate stressors, and really. That's impossible. Like, unless you're going to divorce your husbands and wives, return your children to the hospitals and just bring them back. Uh, you know, forget about your taxes, stop driving your car, like move to an island. And the, you know, thing is you're going to go ahead and you're going to do that. And there's going to be a hurricane. So, you know, you're not going to get around it. So the thing is, our lives are stressed. Being human is, is. It's stressful, but we humans are not made to be so comfortable. I think when we get too comfortable in life, that's where problems tend to arise When you, when you lose the emotional agility to be able to know how to manage stress. That's the big deal is that people forget. That if, if stress is going to be a part of life, how you deal with it is really the most important thing. And, you know, I mean, we were talking before we got on that, you know, my mom broke her femur at the beginning of January. I broke my foot. There's all this stuff going on politically and energetically in the world. You know, everybody's like, yeah, but you just seem to just kind of go with it. I said, because I know how to manage my stress levels. I know to take time out. I meditate. I melt. I breathe. I write. I, I don't get stressed out. Even my mom said to me, you're so patient. And I said, what are we in a rush for mom? We're just here to get well. Right. And so I think it becomes a mindset. I think we get stressed out when we're not producing enough money. We don't have a great relationship. We're lonely. We're, we're sedentary, whatever it is. You know, you get injured and you get frustrated with life, but I would say like frustration is anger in a tuxedo. It's you're saying you're angry. And. If you walk around angry all the time, fascia reacts to your anger. Um, you know, when you're mad and your shoulders come up and your body tightens up, that's your fascia adding more tension so that it can manage the way that your body is compressing. Your, your world's getting awfully small, right? So I think that our ability to understand how to let go, how to free ourselves up is I think it's missing. We don't, we don't really know how to self care. Most people are completely ignorant of self care. They're like, you know what self care is? At the end of the day, I'm going to have a beer and I'm going to turn on the television. I'm going to relax. Or I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to take a spin class. And I'm like, yeah, but you've been sitting all day and now you're going to sit on a spin bike in a flex posture. And you're wondering why your back hurts you. It's like, what are you doing? Right? So I don't think we sometimes see in ourselves that we are the cause of it. You, you said it a minute ago, Mary, you know, like, why is my body failing me? And it's like, no, our bodies didn't fit. And I remember feeling that way too. And my foot hurt me. Why is my body failing me? I work so hard. I train so hard, but your body is. You know, it's knocking on the door saying, Hey, Sue, I need your help in here. Hello. And we're just not listening to the messages. And for anybody's listening, I'm going to give you a message that your body has been giving you for years, and you've probably missed it a hundred percent of the time. So fascia, it's a fluid architectural matrix that supports, protects, and stabilizes you. We've, we've mentioned this. When you sit for long periods of time. And you get up and you feel like you've aged 40 years because your joints don't work as well when you first get up out of a chair as they did when you sat down. You're feeling the effects of this stiffening or this dehydration and fascia, the lack of fluid perfusion. And where we tend to lose it is around our joints where fascia is extra durable and supportive. So that's why if you don't ever do anything about this stiffness, like if you're waking up feeling as stiff as a dried out sponge left out overnight on your kitchen sink. Think of fascia like a sponge. When a sponge is hydrated, you could compress and pull on it. You could cause tension to it. And when you let it go, it bounces back to its original shape. But a sponge that's dehydrated, you compress or pull on it. It stays in that same black state. It doesn't absorb water very. Efficiently. And that's the same with our tissues. If our tissues are not in a supple, elastic, uh, stable environment, it, we, it's, we just collect toxins. We, we don't move fluid through the matrix that slows down our lymph system that decreases. excretion that creates constipation that creates digestive issues. And then once our gut is riddled with inflammation, your brain doesn't work well, right? You're not creating serotonin properly. Now you're kind of have cloudy head. You can't think straight. You're exhausted all day. All of these are a root cause that. originated long before you ever had a problem, and fascia is playing that role in trying to stabilize you. And when it, again, when it fails in its ability to stabilize you emotionally, chemically, neurologically, psychologically, you feel the effects, you get a symptom. But if you become like the medical industry and you focus on your symptoms all of the time, You're going to go down a rabbit hole of medication and I've got clients who are on five or six meds for a, for a cause that didn't need a medication to begin with. So, you know, you can believe what your doctors say and doctors are experts in their said field and they just know what they know, but by no means. Do most doctors have much of an understanding of fascia? Any new research? Most of them don't read research papers. They are stuck in their bureaucratic world of copays and signing papers and, you know, working with insurance. They are exhausted. Trying to do that part of their job. They don't have time to read new research. They spent 10 years in medical school and whatever they felt they needed to know, they learned it back then. And their need for CEUs are a lot less than you and me. We have to keep our accreditation up. Doctors can float for quite some time before they need a lot of CEUs to get re educated in what they do. So a lot of them are, are working on very outdated material and, and, um, that is a problem in our medical field. But it's not at the fault of doctors. It's a, it's at the fault of the, the way that we run insurance. And it exhausts doctors to have to manage all the insurance. Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, like, you know, we still Like there's like a basis of understanding that we have to take accountability for and understand and learn our body. And then there are certain things that are outside of it, right? Like when I needed to go to an oncologist, like I, I wanted to go to an, you know, an oncologist for that, right? But I'm not going to them to be like, what's going on with, with all these other things, right? So like to, to know like The basis of it, right? If your nervous system is dysregulated constantly and we don't know how to manage stress, our body doesn't have the ability to fight things that it would normally fight. And then that's when we see a lot of this stuff kind of rise up. I do think like in the healthcare industry, insurance has really ruined so much of it because I know very wonderful doctors in the industry that cannot practice the way they want to, because they are. filing paperwork. They are on the phone with the insurance. They're trying to justify these things. Meanwhile, there is a wave of, of physicians that are going out of network or they're figuring out ways to still stay on top of research and do that. But that is, that is not the norm. Unfortunately, and, and there's a lot of people kind of stuck in this environment. So you're right. Like they don't have the time to do it. And so ultimately then the doctors get shit on, and it's really the higher up of the whole industry of, Hey, the insurance is really at this. And then everybody's kind of at their beck and call, but we're getting to this breaking point where people like we're fucking done. Yes. So. It's finally like really unraveling and people are, when I started my practice seven years ago, people were resistant to not pay because I don't take insurance. Um, and so it was a bit more of a little bit more of an uphill battle. And now people like I get it. Cause even when I use it, then they get billed even more. And so it's like this theory that, Hey, actually my insurance is going to cover it. I'm like, are they? Because I know I get billed later. So I actually go up when I do do those things. I'm like, what's your cash rate? I'd rather just pay it and not get a bill like five years later and deal with it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But I think you're right. Insurance has really corrupted. quality healthcare in every which way. I think that we're, I think it's backwards how we do a lot of it. And, and again, watching what's going on with my 84 year old mother and, and, and realizing very quickly, she is lucky that she has an advocate because. She would never walk again. If, if I let them do what they were doing with her and didn't pull her out of that nursing home and get her back on her feet, she'll never walk again. And I'm confident that we'll get my mom walking simply because we're caring and I don't care about the insurance or this or that, that I just want her to get the best quality care and directly. Figure out the why this is happening and then find a solution for it and not wait for doctors and insurance to tell me how to do it. I'm just going to do it the way that I know how to do it. Well that's why I think it's so important for people, like that's why I started this podcast is to start helping people understand their bodies and like interpret what's going on. So that way when they do age, right, like say if you don't have an advocate, but like you are aging, but you know these things. Right? Because there's still a lot of people that have, they're fine cognitively and physically, but they don't know the system. They don't understand how it works. And even I'm in healthcare and it still confuses me and people in healthcare are confused. And so it's meant, it's meant for that. But I wanted to kind of go back to what you were saying before about like so many things saying like, de stress this, de stress that. And I feel like it's, yeah, it's missing the point. I'm reading a book now called, um, When Things Fall Apart. Because I just, I really like this book from what I'm reading so far and so much of what she's saying is she's like, life is going to keep on going and there is going to be suffering and it's going to ebb and flow. There's no end. It's how, like what you're saying, it's how we kind of react to things. I think suffering is a choice. Yeah, we can, we can choose to suffer or we can take a different perspective and shift out of it. And you know, and I just speak for myself when my husband died and the shit hit the fan and you know, his family's coming after me and all of these like. Just so much bullshit that happened. I could have sat there and burrowed myself in a hole and said, I can't get out of bed because he's gone. And this, that, and the other thing. And no, I'm going to write about it. I'm going to talk about it. And when they said, how dare you, you know, talk about him and death, that he was an addict. And I'm like, but he was. He was and and you guys are making it sound shameful When you don't listen and you don't let a person be who they are They become in it. They become not themselves They they they are in a state of fear in suffering. They drink alcohol They try to suppress stuff because nobody is listening or seeing them and you're doing it just now they made up a story that made it look good. And I mean, if that could enrage anybody and for sure it did me, but suffering is what you get when you don't allow your mind to express its emotions when you don't. Trust your intuition and you don't talk about things. You don't communicate and you just bottle yourself up and you think that your trauma is yours and yours alone. And the reality of it is when these things happen, we. All learn from it when, when he died and I shared my writing with people, people chimed in and said, I had a similar experience. I can't believe how you deal with grief. I've never heard somebody talk about grief the way that you do it. It sounds illuminating more than decimated, right? You know, you, you're, you're bringing a different viewpoint to it. And I think that that is. What we're here to do is to not suffer. We're not here to be in samsara. We're not here to suffer for our lifetime. We're here to learn, even in the worst of times, how to rise up from it and still live a joyful life. To find joy even in the hardest times. I think that is I think that's like something again, nobody's taught to do. We're just going to go through these stages of grief and we're going to be bewildered and we're going to be angry. We're going to be all these things, but in the end, if you can find your joy and find your peace, I think that pain is less suffering is less and in life is more full of meaning. And I. I would like to see more people realize that suffering is more of a choice than it is a mindset. We can, we can change that simply by thinking ourselves differently. Yeah, I think just adding on to that is, it's the expectation that everything is just eventually going to be okay. And it's like, it can be, but not in the way that we think and kind of what you're saying is like, how can I look at this. So, for instance, my brother passing, you know, three weeks ago, it was devastating. Right. But I sat with it. I'm still moving through it. I'm not You know, there are days that are harder than others. It's not saying that there aren't these emotional things that come up. It's just not staying stuck in them. That I think staying stuck at them and, and then ruminating, I think that's suffering. I think what I can do is then take that and be like, okay, what can I do with that? And to your point. I sat with it and one of my friends was like, you should write something about your brother and share it. And I go, Oh my God, like, that's just no, like what? And then I sat with it and I go, wait, that's literally my whole brand. It's being authentic and open and how this affects the body and health. And I wrote this thing on, on social media. And I just talked about him and like who he was and what I'm feeling, I feel this anger that he, he had to suffer in a body that was failing him with muscular dystrophy, and then I'm happy that he's not suffering anymore in that body and now he's, You know, there's so many different feelings and I posted it and so many people were like, Oh my God, that was just such a great tribute to him. I just, you know, so many great things, like so many people were like, Oh, it was just so heartfelt and you could feel it. And I had one person who was very close to me, which we're not close anymore. It was kind of on the outs anyway. She said to me that I used my brother's death to promote my business. You know, I got that too. When, when my husband died, it was like, yeah, you're just promoting your brand. And I thought to myself, that is like the most absurd thing I've ever heard somebody say, and shame on you for being an unconsciously behaving person. And that's. That's the truth. Because Mary, you said it earlier, you got into PT because your brother had muscular dystrophy. Stop and think, if he didn't, maybe you had not have changed so many people's lives. So these things come to us so that we can have this human experience and we can look back on it and realize that, you know, people like that. actually exist to realize that those negative charges are there because they are angry people who are unconsciously behaving and they have no idea how to be happy or to be kind and They exist out there, but it's because they're unhappy and that's not my problem. And that's not your problem. They don't need to make their unhappiness our problems, but they like to, you know, when, when my husband died, some guy who I didn't even know told me karma is a bitch and I deserved it. Wow. And I was like, I don't know who you are, but actually you're one of the people why he's dead because you couldn't see through his veil of whatever it is that he would show people that what was underlying that was a man who was just fighting every day to exist in the first place. And if anybody saw him for who he was. It was me and I loved him for it and I lost, I lost him, but I learned a great thing because of it. So, I think you're right. I think that the world, and again, like you're even talking about that, suffering, stress, all of these things that we Indoor is to challenge our resilience, and you only get resilience when you have resistance, you can't be resist. You can't have resilience without resistance, right? You, you need it. Otherwise, you're, you'd be like an amoeba just blobbing around the world and not really reacting or engaging with anyone. Um, we need stimulation. We need challenge. We need, um, Loss, because in loss, we learn what the meaning of life is. I think we, we become more attuned to purpose and, um, and love. I think we, we learn to love more deeply because we realize that life is impermanent. Everything is impermanent. There's nothing that's so permanent except death and life. Right. You know what I mean? Like that's. Um, and I mean, I've had friends who are paralyzed now and they're living their best life because of their paralysis, magical, right? That they show other people how to, how to live abundantly, even without being able to walk. Amazing. Well, it was just, I remember my brother Joey, who, um, that just passed for muscular dystrophy years ago. He said, you know, Mary, like maybe if I wasn't in this wheelchair, I'd be a huge asshole. Like, you know, and honestly, if this is the, maybe this is to teach me that, you know, and he struggled with his, his journey and like accepting that, right. That's a process to come to accepting something that is outside of you and slowly disabling you until you die. But at the same time, it's like, like what you're saying is so much of life is. All of this shit's gonna happen. People are going to die. Somebody you know, if it hasn't already, they're going to die. Like, it is a fact. And so, it is a fact. And so, the thing about life is, it's, it's, Ever changing and if we can release this feeling of like stickiness of sticking to this Mindset of I'm this person or this is this is me and this is exactly what I do and life happens to me It's like no, it's a flow It's an if we can detach the way that I think about it is like if we can kind of Detach any expectations of future and past and be in the present Right. I didn't appreciate this moment. And like, I remember, um, just before my ex father in law had passed away, him and I were very close. He was like a father to me and that was pretty devastating. But I remember knowing that he was going to pass and just like being so in the moment when I was talking to him, because I was like, Oh, I'm going to miss these little weird quirks he has in this story, the way that he tells and these different things. And so like, obviously when he did pass, I still miss him. But it's like, I savored those moments and grief causes you, or it doesn't cause you, you can choose to do different things with it. But the way I'm choosing to look at this is like life is, is ever changing and things are not guaranteed every second. Is, is, is not a guarantee and if we can pull ourselves into this moment right now, there's no depression and there's no anxiety when you're right in this moment. And this is somebody that I've struggled with, with both because of my history with a lot of different things. And I can choose to go down this rabbit hole of feeling like a victim. Like, Hey, I was physically and emotionally abused most of my life. I can, I had cancer. I lost. All these different things I've, you know, and yeah, all of that actually purged me into this person that I am today. And if I sat and I didn't have those experiences, I'd just be an amoeba kind of, yeah, that's it. Yeah. You know? And so I do, I think it's important for people to like. We were just saying express their emotions. So, and that's going to be visceral to people, like the people like that you and I have run into. And I had other people say dumb shit too. And I'm like, Oh, you're uncomfortable with expression. Cause you don't know how to express. There it is. That's it. You're scaring them. You scare them because what you've done is you've spoken your truth and you spoke, you spoke from your heart. And so many of us are So, uh, we're so blocked and you know the fascial tissue around our heart is called the pericardium. It's the heart protector. And sometimes our heart protector becomes a throat protector, a voice protector. If you're growing up in a family where you can't express yourself, somebody says, stop talking, stop this, stop that, it, it really causes us to not express our feelings. And that is why people all of a sudden explode with fury, you know, when like, you know, somebody just. You know, passes you by in a, in a lane and suddenly you're It's like, Whoa, you know, but you're, you're hitting something. I hope people are listening to this is that, you know, in the past, whatever happens in the past, we can ruminate on it, which is very easy to do the, I wish I shoulda coulda if I had, right. All those words. And instead we reflect on it so that it's like, you don't live in the past, you're not anchoring in it. And you're saying, how can I learn from that? way that I was, the way that I did it and, and come to this place today where I can face the truth and be better today because of these past, whatever it is. So you, you don't ruminate, you just reflect on it. And then you're not so worried about what you're going to do in the future. How can I pay my bills? How can I do that? It's like, well, what are you doing? Right now in the present moment and even with people who have like they'll come to me with problem problem problem They're like this they these people did this to me and then that happened in this i'm like, okay, okay Okay, what's your problem right now? And they're like, well, I mean, I don't have a problem right now. I'm like, oh Well, then stay in the present moment where we have no problems. Why do you keep going into the past where you have all those problems that you can't even fix because you can't fix the past? And here in this present moment, we don't have any problems. We're here together. Everything's good. How come you can't be here? Well, yeah, but because they, I'm like that, that, that, that you're going into the past again to stay right here. And then you see them take a big breath and it's like a change in their whole mindset because when we live presently, this is where things can change. This is the only place where life exists is right now. It's not tomorrow. It's not last week It's what's happening in this in this minute right now And and I think that that's hard when you have pain when you've lost somebody because it all just seems so Catastrophic and I guess that that's I think that's the difference between even how I try to teach people how to manage stress Is to realize that in your autonomic nervous system, you have these three, these three regulators, stress repair, and digestion. So you have the sympathetic parasympathetic and enteric nervous system. And that sympathetic and parasympathetic is like a seesaw. It should do this. All day long stress comes in and then once the stress leaves the body repairs, right? My boss comes into my room and then they leave, right? So as simple as that is, here's the teeter totter. The problem is, is that from the moment people wake up. They turn on the television and they're watching the news and then they're in their car and they're trying to get their kids to work and, or to, to school and then they've got to go to work and then it's about paying bills and it's like the cup runneth over. And the thing about the nervous system is it is anticipating how you are going to do things because of how you've done them before. But after a while you're just living in a tip scale. All the time. And so your nervous system thinks that this is as good as it's going to get. And what happens is we actually damage our, our parasympathetic potential, our ability to rest and repair. Now you're exhausted all day, but for as exhausted as you are in the daytime, you can't fall asleep. Right? You're not staying asleep, you're getting not a restful night's sleep, you have no deep sleep in your cycle, your hormones are dysregulated, your digestion stinks, and you just don't feel good. And that is a catastrophic effect that's happening to a lot of people that increases oxidative stress, it decreases your body's energy. own cellular repair. We are designed to repair. But if you stress out the system that is supposed to knock you back into balance and you never give it its time to regulate, you're going to get sick. You're going to be sick. And And it comes down to stress management and, and how you perceive and react to the stressful situations in your life. Our reaction is the key thing. When somebody is being a jerk to you, you could turn around and freaking zap them real hard. Or you could say, I'm sorry, could you say that again? I, I didn't, I'm not sure I heard you correctly and make them say their offense again. And then, cause I'm not really sure why you're saying that. And then all of a sudden you see them like short circuiting in front of you because they're realizing that they've just been condescending and rude. They've said something that's like, I don't even know why you said that. That's just really, I'm going to let that go, but that's really weird. Right. But I think that these are ways that we. I don't know. Change our way of supporting our bodies so that our bodies can then react to the world in a positive way. I mean, that's really what it's all about. Yeah, I think, I mean, it. Here's the thing too, it's like we still have to process the emotions, so it's not like I can just say, like, for instance, with the grief that I was experiencing, it's not like I can just say, like, oh, the way that I've looked at it is this, okay, like, I miss my brother, I have a lot of different feelings around it, right? Yeah, why wouldn't you be in grief? Yeah. What's that? Why wouldn't you be grieving? It's your brother. You loved him. He was your friend. He was your person. He was a person in your world. And no matter what the relationship was, he's a part of your DNA and losing him. It's like, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you be sad? Why wouldn't you be distraught? Of course you would. Yes. And so it's like, the way that I'm moving through it is like, I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is something just even honoring my emotions. Like, Hey, I am feeling sad right now. Well, letting myself be sad. Okay. And then it's like, once you like let yourself do that, it like kind of moves through you. Right. And I'm like, wait, I feel better. And so it's so much of, I heard, Oh my gosh, I was so annoyed when I heard this at a conference, I heard, um, uh, a person say, you should never be in fight or flight. And I was like, what? Okay. It's not about not being stressed. It's about coming back out of it. That's it. Rebalancing. So it's like, yeah, I'm a small business owner and single income household. There's going to be weeks where I'm working a little bit more than I need to, but then I padded on the evenings like, Hey, how can I recover? How can I bring friendships back in or these, these different things? But. I think we're just so disconnected from emotions and the human experience because that's, I don't know at what point it's kind of happened that way. I think it's, and so I guess my point is more of all of this is that like, yeah, there's going to be times where you're really sad and you're moving through the emotions and you're experiencing grief. And then there's also going to be joy and happiness and, and all emotions are fleeting. They're all fleeting. That's it. They change. Yeah. I'm not going to feel like this all the time. Yeah. You're freaking angry. Just wait five minutes. Just sit down and just breathe. And calm yourself down, and then think through why you're so angry. And I think that's the thing that people don't do, is they don't pause and really realize that half of the time, we're actually angry about something because it's triggered an old emotion. Yeah. An old something or other, right? You know, it, you know, like you're going into your boss saying, I need a raise, I need this and that. It's like, why are you going in with fists? Oh, because I grew up with a dad who anytime I asked if I could do something, the answer was no. Yeah. And I was being grounded. So why wouldn't I be in the same reaction to any authority figure who was a man who came in front of me? Once you awaken to that, you have so much more control over your life and your emotions. We're greater than our emotions. I think we give into our emotions too hard. I think we let our emotions control us when we're more than our emotions. We, so much. We, yeah, we have the ability to just pause and in that moment when somebody's saying something and you're getting angry that even in your mind, if you just pause and go, wow, this person's really making me angry. Why are they making me so angry? Oh, it's because I'm being judged right now. Well, why would I be mad if somebody was judging me? And then you sit and you think about that. And now what you are is an observer in the process of observation in that which is observed. And you separate yourself from it enough to maintain control. And that is powerful. That derails, that derails the people that are getting at you. I mean, like, uh, it's like a Jedi mind trick. It really is. Uh, and it, and it will, it can really change you when you want to have a conversation with somebody, especially somebody that you're angry with, is to first get your emotions out of the equation and then have a conversation and, and be a question asker rather than a statement maker. I think that that maintains stress levels better than anything else that people can learn how to do. No, I, I agree. I think so much of it is. Yeah. Questioning those things. Well, what about this is making me so angry? Why, why am I, why is this? Cause then you give your power over when you do that. Right. And I like to think about this. The thing that's been super helpful to me is thinking about it again, from the energetic level, when people are low, cranky, angry, want to sit in their shit and they don't want to express their emotions and it's everybody else's fault. They're low frequency people. And then you get people that. Or higher frequency and it's that are, wait, what did you say? Can you repeat that? Or hey, I'm in a, I'm not, you know, I'm taking the time to reflect. I'm looking into this. I'm not just staying in this angry state. I'm actively trying to do better and be better and just be happier. And there's a visceral reaction like magnets, like the opposite. You know, when you turn a magnet the other way, like pushes away, you. feel it. And that helped me so much with the people pleasing aspect and like moving through that. Cause I was, it's still, it's still there, but it's like, no, it doesn't cripple me like it did before. Cause I'm like, Oh, this is energetic. Cause you are. We are literally just like, energetic beings passing in the night and like, just bouncing off and being like, no, no, we do not align, you can say, why would somebody say those things, you know, I had somebody say like, you should go home and apologize to your family. I'm like, what did I do? You don't know my family, you know, and you're just like, I don't know. Oh, that's their shit. Right. That used to be a reflection. Then I'd see that before and I'd be like, oh my god, why does everybody hate me? Everybody hates me. Oh, my family. Yeah. They did this to me. And it's like, you sit in that enough and you're like, okay, I'm not special because everybody else is shit too. How can I, how can I look at grief as a portal to like my next experience? Yeah. Grow from it. Make it, you know, like they say, you know, I think it was Thich Nhat Hanh who said, uh, a lotus flower needs the mud. It needs the mud. Without the mud and the sun and the rain, a lotus flower would never grow. So, a lotus flower grows in the mud and so do we. We sometimes have to get stuck in the mud a little bit so that we push ourselves out and rise up to the sunshine and become the people that we're supposed to be, you know. And not letting other people stop us because Sometimes people want to stop other people from growing because it makes them feel like they're being left behind. And sometimes we say things that makes other people reflect about their own lives that they don't like to see in themselves. And those are things that, you know, I always say, just don't take things so personal. And I think. our whole frequency will be better for it. And, you know, we are energy bodies. We are, we are spirits occupying bodies and utilizing minds to have a human experience. In my personal opinion, other people will say otherwise, but if I agree, yeah, I produced my brain three weeks into my. On a development to organize myself so that I can become a body, you know, but what a phenomenon it is that we even get to be human beings and exist on a planet and smell roses and walk on grass and hug one another and tell people we love each other. And I think that. We should do that more. I think people hold grudges too long. I think we resent too long. And I think that it hurts us more than it hurts anything else. And realizing that fear and hate are not opposites and they are opposites, but we can break free of it. If we realize that love and hate aren't. aren't the opposites. It is the fear that slows things down when we're afraid of what other people say. We're afraid of what we're doing. We fear and we don't realize it. I think that's what really messes life up. If you act in a state of love, things flow. And that's, that's why the Beatles were right. Love is all you need. Yeah. Well, it's, it's just, it's exactly that. And it's like, when you can get into that state, things just kind of flow, like things just, things just start happening. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I didn't even understand that this type of stuff was possible. You know, then you can get into the energetics of how you attract certain things and, you know, being in that higher frequency and looking at those things. But I will say too, like when somebody says something hateful to you or mean, like, think of it like this. You know, think of it as a little child because when they're reacting in that way, it's an old wound for them that they have not addressed and it's likely sometime in childhood or something years and years ago, and they got stunted in that age with that wound and like, for instance, I, if the person that said to me, it's probably, you know, a five year old self that was, I just needed some love and I wouldn't be upset if it was a five year old saying that. I'd be like, oh, it's a five year old, but we see a grown human saying that. And so if we can think of it like that as like, why is that person like, you know, a huge asshole? Like, oh, oh, fuck. That's like. That's sad. Like, and so I think for me, it's so much about looking at it less of anger and more of like, oh, how sad do you have to be to be in that state? Just say that to me when I'm in active grief, when you grew up, like you knew my brother or like, you know, or anybody that has said something like ridiculous. And even through my cancer treatment, I was told not to eat sugar. It's like, I'm going to eat. sugar. Like, I'm sorry. Like, if I want a piece of cake on my birthday, I'm going to have a piece of cake. I didn't eat sugar a bunch. I didn't get cancer from that. I wasn't even eating sugar at the time. It was the stress that I was under because of people like you, you know, it's like, yeah, not you. I'm just saying like, no, no, not me. I don't understand. I don't think that was me. I was like, I didn't know you back then, but maybe I did. It's true. I think everything we're saying is like, I mean, I, I think that these are things that most people don't ever think about or ponder on or talk about. And, um, I think if we do, we get better relationships and we'll be better for it. Yeah. And then all of this kind of circles back to how this affects the nervous system, which affects the fascia, which affects our bodies and our health. And so it's not a pill. It's not just, Doing one thing. It's, it's what truly brings you joy and what does that even mean? And if you don't know, think about what you did when you were a kid. Think about the things that you, like, Oh, I want to do that, but I don't have time for. What is that? You know? And that's kind of where I'm at too, is like, I'll lose it. I'll get so focused on work or whatever. I'm like, Oh shit, I gotta go back. Like, You know, I'm about to start up stand up again. Cause I'm like, I got a bunch of grief jokes. Cause I love that. I've told, I've had people say to me, if you lose your day job, you should become a comedian. Even my mom's like, you should have been on Saturday night live when you were a kid. I was like, yeah, you should have been on Saturday night live. That'd have been fun. But no, I now I'm 54 and that time has passed. So what can I do now to. You can still be on Saturday Night Live. I can still keep people alive, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, so great chatting with you. In summary, a lot of what we were talking about is how fascia doesn't get the representation that it needs for how much it does and how it affects the entire body, how stress affects that, how then that translates into expressing our emotions and moving through them, and how understanding that life, there's gonna be a bunch of stuff thrown at us. It's how we react to it. And then, yeah, like, honing it into all of that will affect our body and our nervous system and our fascia. And so in that, how can people reach you and how can they learn about your programs? Yeah. Uh, so you can, uh, find me on, uh, the, on the internet on melt method, melt method. com. You can find, yeah, you can find me at. Sue Hitzmann. com. Uh, I'm pretty active on social media, uh, through melt method and my Sue Hitzmann pages. And, um, yeah, I mean, I do retreats and I've got a Greece retreat coming up and a self care immersion coming up here in Naples, Florida in the summertime. I've got a Costa Rica event coming up in November. of 2025. And we've got thousands of MELT instructors worldwide who really pass along a very similar message of just focusing on oneself will help everybody else around you more than anything else. Just like they tell you to put on an oxygen mask before you put on everybody else's. So if you're curious about engaging in a self care practice that can really transform your life, I would tell you to go to MELT Method and learn a little bit about what we do. Um, And, yeah, I mean, just like you said it, fascia plays a role in all aspects of stability. So learning a little bit more about it, especially if you're not feeling stable on any level, I think it's a good message for anybody to come and seek me out and learn more. It pulls you into your body and you get to focus on that. And that's, that's a whole other, you know, way to help heal. So thank you so much, Sue. Thank you.

You've been listening to TMI talk with your host, Dr. Mary Grinberg. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Dr. Mary, head on over to dr mary grinberg.com and make sure to follow Dr. Mary at Dr. Mary PT on all social channels. To learn more about Dr. Mary's integrative practice for pain relief in Austin, Texas, head on over to resilient rx.com. Thanks for listening.