Episode 58: The Aftermath of Cancer: Early Perimenopause, and Starting Over with Dr. Laura Currens

Episode 58: The Aftermath of Cancer: Early Menopause, and Starting Over with Dr. Laura Currens

In this raw and deeply personal episode, Dr. Mary sits down with fellow physical therapist and breast cancer survivor Dr. Laura Currens to talk about what really happens after cancer — especially when you're young.

Together, they unpack the overlooked realities of survivorship: the sudden dive into early perimenopause, unexpected relationship changes (from divorce to deeper connection), and the mental, physical, and emotional whiplash of being told you’re “done” with treatment… when your healing has only just begun.

You will learn:

• How to support a loved one going through cancer (and what not to say)
• What early perimenopause can look like after chemo — and why most doctors miss it
• The impact of cancer on identity, sexuality, and relationships
• How grief shows up after survival
• Why pelvic and orthopedic physical therapy can play a huge role in post-cancer recovery and perimenopause
• Alternatives and complements to hormone therapy
• How to rebuild a meaningful life when you no longer recognize yourself
• The hidden gifts and clarity that can emerge from facing mortality too young

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

00:31 Cancer Journeys: Personal Stories

01:11 Navigating Relationships During Cancer

01:34 Life After Cancer Treatment

01:46 Early Perimenopause and Physical Therapy

03:16 The Importance of Advocacy and Early Detection

06:12 Support Systems and Mental Health

20:59 Cold Caps and Chemo Experiences

28:47 Relationship Challenges and Support

37:12 Navigating Life Post-Cancer Treatment

38:14 The Pain of Cancer Treatments

39:08 The Role of Medical Marijuana

39:39 Coping with COVID and Cancer

40:11 The Emotional Toll of Cancer

40:43 The Blessing in Disguise

42:36 The Aftermath of Cancer

52:36 Facing Perimenopause After Chemo

57:46 Understanding Blood Sugar and Hormones

01:04:24 The Importance of Mental Health

01:11:43 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

You can find more about Dr. Laura and her clinic below:

instagram.com/drlauradpt

https://dynamicflowpt.com

Want support for perimenopause that goes beyond hormones?

Whether you (or your clients) are taking HRT but still having symptoms, not ready for it, or can’t tolerate it...there’s more we can do.

I’ll be sharing practical tools from a movement and rehab perspective, focusing on the nervous system, fascia, lymph, viscera, and musculoskeletal system.

If you want updates on workshops, resources, and strategies to support this phase of life more fully, would love you to join my email list.

Subscribe to my email list here

I’ll see you in 2 weeks!

PS:

If you are interested in being a guest on the show, please fill out the form here.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Welcome back to TMI talk with Dr. Mary. I'm your host, Dr. Mary. I've brought on Dr. Laura Currens. She's an orthopedic and pelvic floor physical therapist and owner of Dynamic Flow Physical Therapy in Ventura, California. And as you can see, we're in a bit of a different space. We did a business retreat here in Taos, New Mexico, which we highly. Highly recommend. Highly recommend. I don't have my normal setup. I just had one, um, uh, one little mic, so we put it here on the couch. But super excited about this episode because Lauren and I have had very, very similar journeys of, um, first she's a breast cancer survivor. She found out she had breast cancer at 35. I had Hodgkin's lymphoma at 33. So going through our journeys of that. Explaining what happened with us and then how you can support your family members or friends when they're going through cancer treatment.'cause there's a lot of things that, you know, little details, like asking them, you know, can I sit with you during your chemotherapy or can I, um, come over and do laundry instead of asking what? What can I do?'cause it kind of adds to the mental load. Um, then we dive in a bit to relationship changes. Like, um, Laura's marriage got stronger. Mine, I ended up getting divorced and how we can help support marriages or relationships during cancer treatment.'cause I don't believe we were given tools to be able to navigate that. And it can be a lot on the partners, it can be a lot on family members and how we can. Um, you know, help support people in that way. And then we dove into what happens after cancer treatment. Like you're just all of a sudden pushed into, um, life again and acting like things are normal. And then. Over time, Laura and I noticed that we were in early phases of perimenopause and so we dive into, you know, things that we have found that helped us and also what we can help with from a physical therapy perspective. Um,'cause there's a lot that we can do beyond HRT. I know we're in a big movement right now of HRT. It solves everything, but it really doesn't for a lot of, for a good amount of people, it can help. A lot of people drastically. It can help people, some, and then some people can't tolerate it or it's contraindicated or they don't want to. And so we dive into some different ways that physical therapy can help. And so we're really excited for you to listen to this episode if you wanna. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Yay. And excited to be here. Yeah. We're excited for you to listen to this, so thank you.

mary: 2:32

Welcome back to TMI talk with Dr. Mary where we dive into non-traditional forms of health that were once labeled as taboo or dismissed as Woo. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Greenberg. I'm an orthopedic and pelvic floor physical therapist who helps people navigate perimenopause by addressing the fascia. Lymphatic system, musculoskeletal system, viscera and the nervous system. My whole body approach goes beyond hormone replacement therapy, showing how movement and rehab professionals can play a much bigger role in this process. And now we'll start our next episode.

3:07

All right. So, you know, you and I have been on this similar journey of. Going through cancer treatment and then going into early perimenopause. So if you wanna share your cancer journey and a little bit about Yeah. Your, your experience so people can kind of get to know you. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. Uh, so I was diagnosed with breast cancer at 35. Um, I was 10 months postpartum with my second child, so obviously a little shocking. You know, I was picking up my vomiting kids from daycare and. I got the call saying you have cancer, um, which is just not what you're expecting at 35, and then I'm sure you had a similar experience, but you just kind of fall in every tiny little category, you know? It's like, well, it's just micro invasion, it's just pre-cancer. DCIS. And then it's like, okay, well actually there's some invasive cancer. Oh, it's a very aggressive type of cancer. Um, so it's funny how it just kind of keeps adding and adding and adding up. Um, but yeah, that's kind of my start. And then that led to surgeries and chemo and, uh, an injection that I did for 18 sessions. So a little over, I guess it was 15 months. Yeah. We'll kind of jump into that a little bit about. So when did you note, like did you notice, first of all, you had breast cancer, so people can yeah know that that's what you had, but. Let's dive in a little bit about like what did, did you feel a lump or how did you know, right.'cause you were saying previously that it wasn't detected. Yeah. Except through ultrasound. So if you wanna Yeah. I love to share this part'cause I think it's so important for pregnant and postpartum moms. Yeah, I had a clogged milk duct and it was super tiny, tiny, tiny, little dinky thing by my nipple, and you would never even have thought anything of it. Um, to be honest, I think the average person, but I noticed my milk was coming out slower. I was a over producer. I was donating breast milk. Um, I was pumping at work and I was like, gosh, this is taking so long. I had this deep itch. Um, I've seen a lot of cancer people, cancer survivors discuss this, but it was this deep, deep itch, um, kind of on my boob, and I thought it was winter time. I was like, oh, it's probably just a little dry skin. But it was like a deep, almost like nerve itch. Um, and, and the clogged duck was not clearing. So I probably had it for like six weeks, maybe going into eight weeks. And I was like, oh, that's so weird. It's just not going away. Um. And I had this intuition of myself. I was like, I'm gonna make a doctor's appointment and I'm going to just demand an ultrasound. Like, I don't know why In my head I was like, I need an ultrasound. And I went to my appointment. She was like, well it's just a clogged duct. Uh, you know, you know, do the classic things to get rid of it. And I was like, no, I really want an ultrasound. I just really just gimme an ultrasound and I'm so res I respect her still to this day.'cause she honored my wishes and gave me the ultrasound, which is what started the whole. Process. Yeah, I mean I think it's, and I'll kind of jump into to mine is I had just noticed a lump above my right collarbone and it was, had been going on, same thing about like eight, 12 weeks or so and had to go into my doctor and. Mine wasn't as, as as responsive as yours. She was saying, oh, just taking antibiotics. We'll get some imaging. And we got imaging, a CT scan and it was missed and they missed a golf ball sized tumor. And it was interesting'cause I think it's important we talk about that intuition, right? So one day I, I kept going back to this one doctor and it was just like. We weren't even biopsying it, you know, and, and when you Google, you can Google lymphoma and like the first symptom is, you know, a tumor above your collarbone. And so I think it's important that we advocate.'cause if I didn't advocate, I switched doctors because I wouldn't get, I wouldn't get a biopsy. Got the biopsy. Then kind of found out too, you know, through a phone call you're just like, did you know you're on your day? Yeah. And for me, I got the phone call and I was like, oh, I thought it was a physician calling me about one of our patients. Oh my gosh. And then it was, oh, you know you have cancer, you have cancer. And you're like, oh shit. Yeah. It's like that moment of what was it like for you when, when you found out you had it? Well, I was already, like I said, I had just literally, I'm so grateful in a sense that I had left work.'cause I was actually working and I got a call from daycare saying my kids were throwing up. So I had to go pick'em up. So I left work. Yeah. And I'd literally just get in my kids in their car seats.'cause they were, you know, 10 months and just under three. So two, and I was just buckling them up. And I get this call and I'm, same thing. I see, you know, a doctor's office calling and you're like, okay, let me answer this. And every, like I said, they're vomiting and it was just messy. And it's like, you have cancer, you know, or whatever. It came back. Whatever. And it's just like, wow. Like I don't even think I had time to process it.'cause I was trying to get my kids home and then I had to take care of them. So I don't even think I really got to process it honestly for a few days. But then you jump into like action, right? You're like, let me make a, you know, appointment. Let me get into oncology. I mean, it turns into this whole whirlwind, oh my God. The whirlwind. Yeah. It's so overwhelming. Totally. And like for me. When I had found out, I remember I was at work, I had a patient coming in in like 10 minutes. Mm-hmm. And I had just started my business. I was a year in and I was like, I remember looking out the window and going, no, like it was my birthday too, actually. I was like, oh, great. Like what a birthday gift, you know? And. It was one of those moments where you're just like, no way. Like I marry, I don't have cancer, like cancer's for other people. It's not for me. I know that sounds weird. No, I get that. Yeah. You know, it's one of those things you just hear and you're like, oh, that's somebody else's story. But when it becomes your own story, it is. It is just such a gut wrenching call that you don't ever want to get. And then you're a part of this club that you never want to be a part of and um. Like, for me, it was not finding out I had cancer is, am I dying? Mm-hmm. Like,'cause finding out you have cancer and then finding out you're terminal are to kind of two different things. So I don't know if you had Oh, I went through all sorts of emotion. I mean, I'm like, I'm gonna leave my kids. They don't, you're not gonna have a mom. I mean, I went through, I, I was already postpartum. So you're already. You know, kind of going through hormones and such, but, uh, yeah, I mean, you're, you know, my husband's gonna raise my kids by myself, by himself. Um, yeah, like, do you. You just don't know what to expect. And then when everyone's like, you're so strong, I can't, you're so, you're gonna get this, you're, you got this, you're gonna be okay. It just was irritating me so much. I was like, you do not know if I'm gonna be okay. You do not know if I got this and I'm not strong. I was given a crappy card, you know. Uh, or hand, uh, to deal with. But um, yeah, it's just wild. It's so, I mean, I thought the same too. I was healthy. I breastfed, I had kid, you know, like all the things that prevent breast cancer I thought I had done. Yeah. You know, I was pretty healthy eater. I exercised. Yeah. You know, I was stressed. Sure. I had two little kids and I was working, but I didn't feel like it was anything crazy than every other. Mom, I was around, you know? Totally. Yeah. I had great blood pressure. My labs. My labs were actually good. I don't know if mine were normal. Yeah, they great too. That's something I think for important for people to know.'cause it's your labs. Can they, from my understanding, so we're not oncologists here, we're just explaining our story, but um, my understanding is. Sometimes if it's early on the blood, it hasn't gotten necessarily into the blood to show those changes. So if somebody's getting blood work and they're like, oh, I'm fine. It's like, well, you know, it's, and you still have that gut feeling. I think it's important for people to still, you know, get imaging or, and in my case, the imaging missed and so then I have to ask my doctor to go through the image with me. Right. If you think about radiologists, they're looking at how many images a day. Mm-hmm. I mean, AI is gonna be helping this in the future, which I think will be helpful because it won't miss stuff like this. Mm-hmm. And I don't know if this person looked at it in the evening when they're getting ready to leave. Yeah. Or whatever it is, but being told it was clear and then you get somebody else look at it and it's like, it's absolutely a golf ball size tumor. So it's like this weird, you think you're clear, your blood's normal. And then you get told it's not. And like in your case, like you were saying yours, you wanna explain like how yours was, the ultrasound that found it not? Yeah, so I had, um, because I was breastfeeding, they didn't do a mammogram first. Uh, they did an ultrasound, which I'm so grateful. Because that's what found, you know, detected some tissue that looked off. Mm-hmm. And then I did the needle biopsy, so I'm glad I, I got, like you said, I, it was about best case scenario as far as, but I mean, she wouldn't have done the ultrasound if I hadn't really pushed for it. Yeah. So it's like you have to really like push for this stuff. Mm-hmm. And I hadn't, in my head, I wasn't leaving that appointment until she ordered it, so. I think it's really important that you advocate to get imaging.'cause I see it all the time on mom's groups too. It's like clogged duct and mastitis and it's like, just do soy chen and just do this. And I'm like, no, go get an ultrasound because there is a crappy population like me who it is gonna be breast cancer. Yeah. And it was just something as simple as, you know, I keep getting mastitis or I had a clogged duct. So I always am on there probably. I'm just like, just go get an ultrasound, just go get some imaging. It's like, yeah, and like you said, it can miss, so then I had an MRI and a mammogram after my ultrasound, and those both were negative, so I'm thankful I didn't start with that. Right. Um, but it's important to get multiple images and multiple views because like you said, sometimes things get missed. Maybe somebody interpreted wrong, maybe it wasn't the right view. Um, there's like these nuance things I think that people are unaware of. Mm-hmm. Because you're just like, oh, the imaging was clear. What imaging? Mm-hmm. What, when did they do it? Who looked at it? Did you review it with your doctor? I also think that, you know, not everybody has cancer, right? And so there's like this balance of not over imaging yourself, but also listening to kind of, to your intuition. Because I feel like there's two things. There's anxiety about it, and then there's intuition. And for me, the way that I would describe it is like if you have like this subtle underlying kind of net like little voice that's like, Hey, go get it checked out. Like intuition's more quiet. And then it's like if you keep having that and you wanna just get it checked out, like go get it checked out and like go through the route to do that, versus if we think everything is cancer all the time. Mm-hmm. Like I have a lot of family members that are constantly thinking like. They have some form of cancer'cause of hypo, they're, they tend to lean more towards being a hypochondriacs because of just fear around that. So that's kind of where I came from. Mm-hmm. And I was kind of a hypochondriac at the time, but there was, it was just like this little subtle thing and I remember one day I just woke up and was like, I need another opinion. Mm-hmm. It was like this inner drive, I would say. I think also like something that's not going away. Yeah. Right. Like a C clogged duck should not last. Six to eight weeks. Yeah. Like that's not really necessarily normal. Yeah. Like sometimes it'll keep coming back for, but if it's not changing, like I think there's weird signs, like I said, that weird itch. Um, a lump that's not going away. I mean, a golf ball tumor, like Yeah. Like that's not normal, right? Like I think that like Sure. Do you need to jump on it Week one of feeling something? Probably not. Yeah. But if it's like lingering on, um,'cause unfortunately young people tend to always have the most aggressive types of cancer, so it's like you don't necessarily wanna delay Yeah. Figuring it out. Yeah. You know? Totally. And I think that it's a balance too. I also think that it's. Cancer isn't, uh, as deadly as it was like 20, 30 years ago. Mm-hmm. I mean, it still can be deadly, but when we catch it early, and the way that I was kind of described is that it can be treated almost like a chronic illness too. So say if like you do get a certain stage of cancer and you can manage it and you know, they kind of keep an eye on it. It's obviously not ideal, but it's. It's not as much of a death sentence as it used to be. Mm-hmm. Um, it still is for some people, unfortunately. But I think also this, when you tell people you have cancer, they're like, oh my God. Like they immediately assume you're likely gonna die. Or some like that. It's like cancer death or like this, like immediate. And obviously that is the case and it can turn into that. Mm-hmm. But there's so many people like ourselves that survive and are five plus years out. Mm-hmm. And. Um, so there's, there's a lot there. I also think, like, for me, there's a little bit of like survivor's guilt sometimes, you know, and like you and I were talking, like hearing your story and, and you can explain it more. Mm-hmm. But understanding like your breast reconstruction and you going through chemo too, and. I'm like, well, I only did chemo three months. Like you, you went through so much more and you know, you can talk to anybody. And then, you know, so there's like this weird kind of comparison thing. I think that happens too with cancer survivors. Yeah. And cancer is just shitty all around. Totally. Honestly, it's just a bunch of bad decisions you need to put together and Sure there's worse people in worse positions, better positions. Yeah. But I think it's just like listening, like we've talked about, you know, instead of saying you're so strong, you got this like. Just like let them listen and be there and help and do something. Totally. You know, cook clean, drop off groceries. I don't know. I think there's so many ways we can like support people. Yeah. So then, yeah, the next thing is like how can people listening support people, they love going through it and like, I love what you're saying. You were like, I hated it when people told me I was strong. Mm-hmm. How, how? Why would you tell anybody that they're strong for something that they didn't choose? Yes. And it's like a crappy, it's not a good time. I mean, you just are going through the motions. You're trying to survive and do the things, and then people are like, oh, did you know you could just do this lemonade cleanse and it'll cure your cancer or do this Mexican herb? And you're like, I'm 35 with two kids, or I'm 33. Or like, it's like, that's ridiculous. Like yeah, you have to do what you feel comfortable with, but that unnecessary. Advice is not helpful when you know you're not stoked about poisoning your body with chemo. Yeah. Like that's not a choice that I think either of us were excited about. Totally. Um, and especially coming from like a holistic Yes. Wanting to be like clean eating and all this stuff. And then there's, so I'd say like, yeah, like what we were just saying is supporting people the. You're so strong or you can do it, and it's like, I don't need cheerleaders. Yeah. I, I don't want that. And I'd say that that is probably the biggest complaint that I hear from people that are cancer survivors are like, people are like cheering me on. Like, you could do it. You're strong. That's not what people want to hear. I want like, my favorite conversation with one of my. Um, girlfriend, she said, damn, this sucks. Mm-hmm. Like, and she was just so real and in it with me, she was like, so what's the plan? Like, what are you gonna do? You know, can I bring dinner? You know, I think the thing too is when people are like, what can I do? I don't know. I am dealing with a hundred other phone calls, like every hour. Mm-hmm. I'm getting a phone call from somebody in my family. Somebody from the insurance company, somebody from the surgical center, somebody from my doctor's office, somebody from um, insurance, somebody from the infusion center. Mm-hmm. Like I don't have capacity to tell you what to do. I am so appreciative of the help, but I cannot, I'm also the first out of most of my friends to get same, actually all of my young friends to get cancer. So nobody knew what to do. Yeah. So I'm not blaming, they were all super lovely and wonderful, but I'm just saying like, if. We can help and propel this forward. Yeah. What can we do? And so, yeah, so, and same, I was the first one. I mean, I, nobody in my family, I mean, my grandparent, you know, elderly, but nobody young, you know? Yeah. And nobody in my friend group. Yeah. It's, but yeah. Can I start a GoFundMe for, can you know, are you financially struggling? Can I set you up a GoFundMe? Like, or not even ask, but like, people just set me up a GoFundMe. Like I'm so grateful for that.'cause it really helped us financially. Can I set up a meal train for you? You know? Yeah. Can I, I'm gonna have a housekeeper come clean your house. I'm gonna have somebody walk your dog like, and, and watch your kids. You know, it's like all of a sudden people are trying to help. But, um, I was diagnosed in February, you know, right. At COVID. So it was like, everyone's like, oh, I'm gonna help you with my, your kids. And then first day of chemo was the day the world shut down and nobody was there for our kids. And we were like, well, I can't take, I literally can't take the kids to the infusion center. Yeah, luckily our daycare lady last minute decided, you know, said she would take our kids, but like that kind of stuff is so helpful. Yeah, because she took my kids, you know, chemo, chemo can be like six hours. Seven. I mean, it's like a long day. That's another thing. You didn't get people to sit with you because it was chemo. It was 2020. Right. Because I had my husband as my capper. Um, I got him designated as my helper, but I had to fight for that. Tell people what a capper is. Oh yeah. So we can talk. I know, but people are not aware of what this is. So right before I started chemo the world, that was the day literally the world shut down. I had seen on a Facebook group about cold caps, about saving your hair'cause. My hair. You know, I think for most, most people like the thought of chemo, the first thing in my head was like, sure, this toxics a chemical, but I don't wanna lose my hair. So I, uh, purchase these cold caps. You rent them, um, you have to get dry ice. It's a whole thing. You know, they ship'em to you. You have to learn how to use'em. Uh, it's a negative 30 some degree cap on your head. You wear it for an hour before chemo. During chemo, and then it depends on the type of chemo you do three to five hours after chemo. Oh, I didn't realize that. So it's a whole ordeal. Okay. Um, so I decided to do it'cause I was like, you know, wigs are expensive. You know, it's a pretty hefty investment. I think when I did it was like 2200. Uh, I did penguin coal caps and it's a lot of work though. So we watched YouTube videos. And then so we get, you have to go get dry ice. So you go before chemo, get the giant thing of dry ice. You have to put all your, you have multiple calves'cause you change'em out every 20, 25 minutes. Mm-hmm. And I show up with this giant cooler, my husband,'cause he was my capper. And they're like, oh no visitors are allowed. It just start, it just changed this morning.'cause that's how it was in COVID, right? Everything was changing that morning and I was like, I just invested all this money. I don't wanna lose my hair. If you miss capping one set, one chemo session. Yeah. You, there's no going back from that. Really? Okay. Like you have to do it the whole time. Yeah. So if they were like,'cause they were like, well, we have to call management. I was like, okay, go ahead and call management. I'm just gonna wait. Like I put up a fight. Yeah. And I feel kind of guilty about it because they were trying to protect people, but also like hair matters and your mental health matters. And I was by far the youngest person in there, and I just don't think it's okay to not, they didn't care at all about mental health. Yeah. You know, going to chemo by yourself too, like especially your first year. I know. I would've been by myself the whole time, yeah, it's my husband. We're in the same household. Whatever germs I have, he has like, this is ridiculous. You can put us in a, they had some private rooms, so that's what they did. They ended up putting us in a private room, but they acted like, you know, I was the biggest pain in the ass all the time. Of course. Of course. Because I was like, had this cold cap system, which I was doing. We were doing all the work, but you know, it takes up some space and I was like, really? Like I feel like, first of all, you guys didn't even tell me this was an option. You told me I wasn't gonna lose my hair. And then when I did research, I was like, oh, I'm gonna a hundred percent lose my hair. Yeah. So the whole thing was so irritating. But yeah, that was COVID times. But I don't think anyone should have to do that stuff alone. Like you should be able to have somebody there with you. Well, that's, yeah. No, there's, oh my gosh, there's so much. It's so interesting how different our experiences were because first of all, I, I wasn't able to use a cold cap. I looked into it. But it's only for people with solid tumors, at least back then. I haven't research it now. Yeah. And so having Lymph Hodgkin's lymphoma, it's a blood cancer, so it's affecting my lymph nodes. And so I couldn't do it. So I didn't even have to look into it. But I would say that I actually had too many visitors, like they got to this point.'cause mine was 2019, so it was like July 11th, 2019 is when I, my first chemo was. And I had like so many people that they were like, you need to not have many people. And it was like kind of like, I felt like, so I was like, oh my God, I didn't realize this. I had this many friends. Aw. And at the time I was married. So it was like my partner's friends and then his family and then like, I think, I wanna say like his sister was here. I had a friend pop into visit like they had, so you're like royalty. Your chemo be, it felt like, I felt so cool. I was like, okay, wow, this is crazy. But at the same time, it was like super sad, but I think. That's a big thing that people don't know about is asking if, so now it's post COVID, right? Mm-hmm. But like, I don't know. It depends on the hospital policies, but asking if they can sit with you during your infusions. It's huge.'cause it is like these infusions are anywhere from six to eight. The first time can be longer, so that first infusion's longer because they wanna slowly infuse you to make sure you're not having. Like a response, the negative allergic reaction to it. And I did my belly swelled up and I, it started itching and I was like, great. Of course, naturally. But, um, having somebody come and sit with you, I will say, I heard this and it stuck with me. Be careful about having people bring, like, your favorite foods. Oh. Because you don't want to eat them ever again after. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. Did you experience that? Um, I wasn't allowed to bring, we weren't allowed to bring any, I mean, like I said, we weren't allowed to really bring anything. I, it was a weird time. I mean, yeah. Uh, I'm just so grateful. It really brought my husband and I together him going and it was almost like we were like, oh, it's our date day. Like, you know, we did once a week chemo and it kind of ended up being really good for our relationship, to be honest. Yeah. Because we were in that busy hustle with kids and it was like this whole chunk of time. Yeah. We would go get coffee, we'd go get the dry ice. We had like a little routine. Mm-hmm. Uh, so for us it was like really good. But um, yeah, most people during that time just had to do it by themselves. I actually told them too, I was like, okay, no problem. I'm gonna take my IV pool and all my crap and I'll just go down to the parking lot every 20 minutes. That's what I told them. Yeah. And they're like, you can't do that. And I was like, well. Then you need to let him in to cap my head, because people were trying to do it on their own and it's, first of all, it's freaking freezing. They're in dry ice. You have all your IV. People are trying to put on caps and I don't know, it's just so ridiculous. So yeah, I think my time was a little unique'cause it was that weird start of COVID time. So hopefully it's better now. I mean, hopefully they don't give you such a hard time hopeful, I think. I think, I do think that there's a lot of gatekeeping and shame in the cancer world too, of like, oh, you have to do this. You have to do this. You know, not telling you, Hey, there are cold caps. Like, why, why are we not telling people that?'cause we don't wanna deal with people doing the cold cap switching. I don't, I don't understand that. It's different when you're a health, when you start to lose your hair, it is your identity. And you lost your hair. I lost my hair and I lose any hair. I lost like 20, like 80% of it. Yeah. And at that point it's like falling out. What's the point? I look like that toy story toy. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like, because she has. Or it had like three hairs coming out. That's what had happened to me though too. Yeah. I was like, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. But yeah, I think that it's important to see, advocate for yourself. Asking your friends or your family members if you'd like to sit with them. Um. You know, you're, you're literally there for like a whole day. And so there's, there's so much there. And so we'd have, yeah, meals are super important. So somebody can set up a meal chain and set it out like, um, there's also coming over and just be like, can I do your laundry? Instead of saying, what can I do? Mm-hmm. Give, I'm to do this, I'm going to do this. Is that okay? And if you live far away. You can, I would say you can give like gift cards to like Uber Eats or like a lot of friends did that where they would do that or like, they'd send like a gift with like socks and like, um, ginger chews and stuff to help with that. But I'd say the things that help the most, or let's like just ground level, just functioning, just cleaning your house, getting your laundry on eating or like some of the hardest tasks and dog walking. Yeah. Childcare. Totally all that stuff. See I didn't have kids. Yeah. But I will say, you know, you said it brought you and your husband together. Unfortunately, especially in younger couples that have gone through cancer treatment, it actually, sometimes, I hate to be like a Debbie Downer here, but I also think it's super important for people to know.'cause I was warned about this, that it actually can separate, be very restraining. And I got divorced soon after and it was very hard on my partner at the time'cause he didn't know how to deal with it. I didn't know how to deal with it. And unfortunately it is. A very strong percentage of heterosexual couples. If the female gets sick, it's oftentimes a divorce. Mm-hmm. Because the male partner is unaware of how to help, and that's not shitting on men, that's not it. I just think that we need to nip this in the bud, like I think oncologist need to. I even, I think, I'm pretty sure I even told my oncologist, we need to be having couples going to couple counseling immediately, or some type of support because. There's something that's happening, it's, I don't think that many men are that shitty where they'll just leave. Yeah. I think that, and it, this also happens from, I've heard it, a men man getting sick and then the women leaving and cheating or something like that. Like, so it's not, but you'll see the percentages are extra high on, but it's a, it's a lot on the partner. Honestly. Its, I feel for the caregiver partner too. It's hard on you going through it. I think it's almost harder sometimes on the person. Trying to help and do all the things and be the good person and be there for you, but still hold together things. But it breaks them. But it can be a whole lot. It can break them. It's lot mentally. That's what I'm saying. Like if we can, what can we do? Mm-hmm. I mean, I was at a cancer survivors retreat. Nine out 10 of us were divorced. Wow. Nine out. My God, that's so sad. Yeah, it's very high. I feel like for us it was harder post-cancer. Yeah. Because I think during cancer you're kind of like, okay, we got this. Okay, we're doing this, this, this, this, this. Then you're like, you're good. Yeah. You're good to go. Like you're cured and you're like. You feel, and we can get in, you know, all the changes in your body, changes in sexual, you know, function and health and all the things like, I think it's kind of like you're in go mode and then all of a sudden for us we were like, whoa. Like now we have to navigate. Like, you know, I've got met like changes and you know, it affects your relationship. Totally. So I think sometimes that after phase can be just as hard as the during phase. Totally. And then all of a sudden everyone was there for you and then all of a sudden you're like, they're gone. Not gone. You're back to being a normal person. Not, but you're like, okay, you're back to the world. And I did that too. And we've talked about this. Like I just went back to work and. I'm seeing patients. I was in ortho at that time mostly, and I'm seeing an elbow pain patient and I'm like, you know, I don't give a shit about your two outta 10 elbow pain. And I was finding myself super resentful. Yeah. And I was like, this is not me. Totally. But I was so irritated and you'd have like an older people person being like, well, you don't get it. You know, like, oh, I don't. I don't get it. Okay. So you, I was finding myself getting really snappy with my clients and I was like, oh my God, this is bad. Yeah. And that was when I dove into, I felt like I needed to dive in more pelvic health and complex and chronic pain because I feel like, like these little things were annoying me so much. Mm-hmm. I just couldn't, I didn't feel like I had it in me to treat an elbow pain anymore. Totally. I just felt like I had so much more I needed to offer. And we've talked about this with like health, you know, coaching and, you know, overcoming challenges. Manifestation or GA visualization. I just felt like I, I kind of started that journey. It's been growing, but I think it's hard to go back into just the real world. A thousand percent. Yeah. And you're supposed to just go back to work and working out and having sex with your part. You're like, it's just like everything's supposed to just go on and you're like, wow. Totally. That was a whirlwind. I

mary: 32:18

I think it's important that we dive into that. But before, let's kind of circle back of the top things that people can help with to summarize, instead of telling people they're strong, really sitting with them and having real conversations like, Hey, you know what? This really stinks. Like, I'm so sorry you're going through this, you know. Asking, Hey, can I come by and do your laundry? Can I make your meal? Instead of, what can I do? Because we're already prefocused on just getting through the day, figuring out the insurance, figuring out, getting to and from appointments. When is my appointment?'cause when you're diagnosed, it's like you're in this vortex of like all of this shit you have to do. You can't think outside of here, at least me. And so when somebody's like, oh, I'm like, I don't even wanna think about what I'm eating. And so somebody coming in, cooking, cleaning, setting up meal trains, childcare, cleaning, laundry. I think I've probably just said the same things a million times, but you're kind of getting the point in in, in that. And so I. Then yeah, diving into the relationship challenges, I think it's important that we get support early on what that looks like. You know, maybe we can ask for resources. Some places, like in Austin, there's um, flat Water Foundation. Oh, nice. That provides free therapy for cancer survivors or people going through cancer treatment. So what nonprofits are out there that can help people.'cause I think it's so important early on for couples to literally get the skills to help because. I think it can be hard, so hard for the partner'cause they don't know what to do either and they can shut down and it can be a lot for them too.

Laura: 33:58

Mm-hmm. And so, um, yeah, so, but I agree

Speaker 3: 34:06

there's a lot of organizations, um, like, so 2020 was a little funky. Um, cleaning. There was a cleaning service I used. They came out when you had surgery for four times and cleaned your house. Yeah, like all free. Which was like, really, like I said, the things you don't wanna do is clean your house when you're going through all that.

Laura: 34:23

You don't Yeah. You don't have the energy. It, and it's funny'cause you look like. At least when I had friends visit, they were like, oh, you look fine. Let, let's go here. I'm like, no, I, I literally, I, I can't, I need to sit on the couch. Like I'm not as active as I used to be. But yeah, there's a lot of cool resources. There's yeah, that there's therapies. Um, I know Live Strong has a lot, I wanna say like a lot of resources too. There's also a lot of resources post-cancer as well, like. Not a ton. There's more now, but when I went through it, you're, we'll dive into that whirlwind kind of shoot back into real life, but. There are other things like, I think it's called the first descent and that's also, have you heard of this? Uhuh? So they do a free trip. They cover your trip for like a week after you are like recovered and feeling better and kinda, and it's an outdoor activities. Yeah. And that's free for cancer survivors that had cancer under 40.

Speaker 3: 35:16

There are some by me I never took advantage of. Like I, you know, it, it was a little funky'cause things weren't quite open. Well I was gonna, and then it's like weird to go like five years later, right? I, I reached out to one, I know I reached out to group recently. Um, it's all in LA so, you know, it's doable for me. It's an hour and a half, two hour drive. But, um, I was like, do I deserve kind of that guilt? Like, do I deserve to be there? I have my hair. I don't look like I had cancer anymore. Um, but I never really got to do any of that, like any of that support groups. COVID. Yeah. It was all virtual support groups, which was great at the time, but you know, like it's old, like, you know, all the Facebook groups and

Laura: 35:51

Yeah,

Speaker 3: 35:52

I didn't really get any of and in person, you know, if it's a lot of older individuals that's not really like, connect, like, doesn't feel like the same phase of life as you were in totally

Laura: 35:59

like cancer and not discounting people that have cancer later in life, it's still horrible. But when you've got littles, when your fertility's affected, you are running businesses like. You know, like it's a different, I, yeah. I had just started my business and so there was no, it was, it was, it was financial stress, like you've got all of these different things versus like maybe when you're older and you're retired, you still have the income from maybe your retirement or you have social security and you have Medicare covering those things, but. It's, and not discounting the pain may go through, but it's, it's just different life challenges that that happen. And, yeah, I didn't get to use mine'cause I was booked for it and then COVID happened. Oh

Speaker 3: 36:41

shoot. So you,

Laura: 36:42

so, um, I keep, a couple of my friends were diagnosed with cancer. Uh, recently we were talking about doing it and going, but maybe you and I, yeah, I know. Maybe we should do it. Yeah, because I think it was like the cutoff was like, it's up to 40 if you've had it, but if you've had it earlier. Before 40, and I'm 40

Speaker 3: 36:59

now, so I'm like at

Laura: 37:00

that weird. Yeah. But you had it when you were 35, so I think they say up to 45. But if you've had it between 35, like uh, 17 to 40 or something like that. Yeah. But yeah, there's some of those resources. But I think it's important to jump into what you were saying is like the, you're, you have all these treatments, right? It's your whole life. Yeah. You ring the bell. And you're done. Yeah. And then now, and you're supposed to be good. And you're supposed to be good, and everything's supposed to be great, and you're like, I'm alive. I'm thankful I'm, yeah. And then you're going back into the real world of people complaining about mundane little things. Like, like you said, you were like building resent resentment. And um, for me it was just more like. How do I function? What do I do? I am, you know, I was also going through a divorce and then COVID had just hit, um, I. Business was not doing well'cause of COVID. So it was just like so many things and it was weird'cause when lockdown happened it was like, oh, people now know what it feels like to go through cancer treatment.'cause I was on lockdown. Yeah, because you have to do those, huh? You were on lockdown before

Speaker 3: 38:12

lockdown,

Laura: 38:12

which is super crappy. Yeah. Well. You know, like you and I were saying, like when you go and you do chemo, sometimes you need to this, this shot in your thigh or wherever they do it, um, to stimulate your bone marrow so you can produce, so you can help build a healthy immune system as your cancer's, as your chemo's attacking your body.'cause if your blood count's too low, they can't give you chemo. So

Speaker 3: 38:36

we both had the honor of this lovely medication. It's harder than

Laura: 38:39

chemo,

Speaker 3: 38:40

which we were like, this is so much crappier than chemo.'cause it, it feels like your whole spine and sacrum are ripping out. I've never experienced such pain and I, because you have so much bone marrow right there, it hurts. So, and you're like debilitated on the couch. And I was like, you feel like I'm getting through chemo? This is great. I got this. And then you take that injection and you're like, oh my God, I feel like I got ran over by a freaking train.

Laura: 39:02

So. I switched brands the first time. It was like that. I switched brands and it was totally different. But I will say the medical marijuana was such a gift during that time. I know you didn't use any, but for me I was like, I, it

Speaker 3: 39:17

was such, but you need something'cause you can't function. I mean they were trying to get me to do that weekly and I was like, I will do biweekly. I will not do that weekly. And then I think what ended up, you have to find a combo if that works for you. I think I ended up doing zertec and um. Something else. Yeah. That worked for me. That make made it manageable. Yeah. But that medication,

Laura: 39:37

yeah, it's no

Speaker 3: 39:37

joke.

Laura: 39:38

Yeah. So you go from like having to, well, yours is different'cause you were, everybody was quarantining anyway. I know. Which is honestly a blessing in disguise. If I had to pick a time to go through cancer, 2020 is a time everyone was miserable. Nobody was traveling. I wasn't watching in people in Costa Rica and Hawaii and like you probably were. I was. I know. Versus me, everyone's miserable. And, and I was like, not that worried. You know, I was like, had my own stuff going on. So the COVID stuff didn't affect me as much because I was already quarantined and careful and isolated. Anyway, it's funny because it's like, I remember like all these people, I remember being in Athleta and I remember he overhearing some, I had just been diagnosed, my mom was there with me and the parents feel like my mom was like, it should be me. You know, like the, I can't even imagine the pain that my parents felt. Just like seeing me go through that. Um, but I remember my mom coming and she was like, I'll buy you. Like, what do you want from my butt? I'm like, oh, none of this matters. Like, you're just like, you look at it and like, all this shit doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. That's the

Speaker 3: 40:41

blessing

mary: 40:41

in cancer. We've talked about this. It's such a blessing. I mean, we can get into that more later, but it's like, it's such a blessing in the moment. It's not Yeah. You don't, you don't think of, I mean, I didn't think of it that way. Yeah. I was pissed. I was angry. I was screaming into pillows. I was, I was punching pillows, I was crying. I was just. A fucking mess. And, uh, and then everybody's calling you, asking you how you're doing. And I'm like, I, I just can't. I remember throwing my phone and being like, I can't, I can't answer the phone. I can't talk to anybody. I was like, isolating in a room upstairs and just like, I can't, but I remember overhearing, a lady just said, athletic being like, yeah, I'm so frustrated. Like I couldn't fly into Kauai, so in Hawaii, and so I have to go to here and I'm just frustrated with this. And I was like.

Laura: 41:23

I think those are such small little things in life. Oh my. Yeah. Oh, to have that as your problem. Yeah. Right. But um, yeah, it was like, oh, I get to finish cancer to go through COVID. I know

Speaker 3: 41:42

that actually, like I said, if I had to pick it, I think I had it at the better time You did. I remember thinking, I wish I went. It minus you if you didn't get diagnosed because. I had an option of getting that ultrasound that next morning or three months out. If I had chosen the three months out, I probably, I might not be here. Who knows?

Laura: 41:59

Well, I also had people that went through it during, depends on the state you're in too. I mean, you're in California, so it's pretty strict, but like some people couldn't even get their chemo because of the, like, there was just so much stuff with like, um, the chain, what is it? The supply chain?

Speaker 2: 42:15

Mm-hmm.

Laura: 42:15

Um, delaying things. Shutdowns, people getting COVID. So understaffing. So like some people that went through it, it was a lot of complexity. Yeah. They, they, it might have been easier from like, oh, everybody else is shut down, but they weren't able to get access to the care

Speaker 3: 42:28

or get

Laura: 42:29

diagnosed

Speaker 3: 42:30

or Yeah, yeah.

Laura: 42:31

Get

Speaker 3: 42:31

them stuff they needed. So, totally. Yeah. Complex for sure.

Laura: 42:36

But yeah. So jumping into like after, right. Aftermath. The aftermath. It's weird. Like it's this weird, uh, I don't know. How would you describe it?

Speaker 3: 42:50

Well, you're supposed to be so happy and thankful and grateful that you're alive and you're good to go and you're terrified cancer's gonna come. I know for me, I was already like kind of, you know, very clean, clean ingredient, you know, ingredients and products, but I went kind of insane. I mean, I got rid of all my shampoo, conditioner, any product I was using. I remember bringing it to my sister and I was like, do you want any of this? It was like nice stuff. And I, you know, I already like all the glass. Like I, I was, I went a little, little crazy with it.

Laura: 43:21

Oh, I think most people do. I did too. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I can't eat this. I can't eat that. Yes. But I was already doing that before. Yeah. When I got it. So. I had severe crippling anxiety. Oh. Like, I don't know what your, everything I thought was cancer again. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:41

I was worried about my kids. My daughter was having a lot of stomach GI stuff at that time, and I was like, she needs an ultrasound. I mean, I was, I, I was feeling, you feel panicked about your friend, your loved ones having something. You're missing too.

Laura: 43:53

Totally.

Speaker 3: 43:54

So, I don't know. It's a really tricky time and I don't feel like they really prep you enough for it. And I remember my neighbor who. Had Hodgkin's. He unfortunately passed away now, but he was like, Lori, you're gonna need therapy after all this. And I remember him telling me that and I didn't do it. And I probably should have, because I do think it's a lot to go through. And, oh yeah, he had it at 19, like really young. But I remember him being like, you are gonna need, you don't think you need it, but you need, so something you don't think

Laura: 44:20

you need. Oh, I went, I've been in it. And I'm, I'm not in it right now. As I heard somebody say the other day, one of the girls was saying, um, she uses therapy topically now, like as needed. Oh, okay. Like, yeah, to go through stuff. But I feel like that's where I'm at right now with, um, some things. But I went immediately'cause I just,

Speaker 3: 44:39

which I think is the right thing to do and I didn't, I just kind of acted like I. Working. I was a mom, I was back to life. Everything's fine. Everything's fine.

Laura: 44:46

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:47

But I don't think it really is fine. No. The body keeps a score.

Laura: 44:51

It's not really fine. Well that's what, so for me, I think like what helped my anxiety about it returning was becoming okay with death.

Speaker 2: 45:02

Mm-hmm.

Laura: 45:03

Like, and that is a weird thing in our culture in the us and. How we don't feel comfortable talking about death and sickness and illness. And it was interesting'cause like what calmed my anxiety? Well, it was a few things. It was how do I become closer and more comfortable with death? And I started thinking like, well, what do I think death is? And I, and I immediately go, oh, you're gonna burn in hell for eternity if you're in mortal sin.'cause I grew up in a very Catholic world and I was like, well, what are my beliefs? Do I truly believe that an all loving universe. Something greater than me is that way. And I had to go down my own journey and be like, no, I believe it's infinite love and kindness. And we have, you know, my perspective is different is maybe this lifetime is, this is something that I needed to go through to learn for whatever reason,

Speaker 3: 45:54

which is kind of a blessing, right, because it pushed you into that Totally earlier.

Laura: 45:58

Yeah. But then the other piece that I, I would say is. Western medicine saved my life. Eastern medicine saved my quality of life. Mm-hmm. Because there, you know, when you asked, when you found out you had breast cancer, like, did anybody tell you why it happened?

Speaker 3: 46:20

I mean, even everyone's like, you had childhood trauma, you're stressed out, you, you know, you have genetic, and I had big genetic panels and it wasn't genetically linked as far as we know. Mm-hmm. That's, I think, the biggest misconception. It's like. Everyone's like, oh, well you have the BRCA gene. I mean, that's only like 10% of breast cancers are actually linked to something we know genetically. Sure there could be something else, but yeah, I mean, I didn't do, you know, I went back to like college. Sure. I drank kind of heavy in college. I lived in a dorm. Maybe it was something environmental. I, but everybody I know, but you go through such a crazy, you know, you go through that guilt of like, what did I do wrong? You know, I live, there's a lot of farmland around where I live. You know, it's a lot of pesticides, but you know, it doesn't, and to me, sure, a lot of that could combo, but I think cancer also just doesn't really give a shit. It, it's just spinning. I mean, there's kids and babies. I mean, they haven't done anything wrong per se. You know, it's totally just doesn't quite make sense.

Laura: 47:19

Well, that's why I kind of have to look at it from a spiritual realm. Like we're all, the way I look at it is we're all. Here, like we have souls that are eternal and then these, um, I believe that we're here on this earth to live out some type of mission or a lifetime service or whatever it may be. And we all have different things and it's, whether it's based on. Okay, well what was cancer supposed to teach me? Mm-hmm. You know, and this is my own opinion of it, so I don't like push it on anybody else. It's just like, oh, it, for me, it was to wake me the fuck up.

Speaker 3: 47:53

And same for me. Yeah. It changed my life. And kind of a lot of positives too. Both of us are super passionate in our businesses. Yeah. We wanna live life to the fullest. Yeah. We are rejecting this hustle, hustle culture. I mean, it changed me. I started making time for my, you know, it was like, I'm gonna work out, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be a little selfish and make time for myself. Moms are, I think a lot of people, especially moms, are horrible at that. It's like women in general. Women in general on being a mom. Yeah. They don't make time for themselves. It's not healthy. Like, and I, it made me a little bit more selfish. Like, I'll tell my husband, like, I'm gonna go surf. This morning, instead of him just going to surf and me staying with the kids now we both find a way to go do that. And it's like, it's not selfish though. Yeah, that's what I'm

Laura: 48:33

saying. Like you're saying it's selfish, but that's not, but that's what

Speaker 3: 48:35

I felt because I had never, you know, I felt like I wasn't really doing that. Yeah. Um, but now I'm like, no, it's vital. It's like you need the health to then treat, first of all, we have a lot of, you know, when you treat clients, it's like. It's emotionally draining. Like you need to be in a good place yourself and good energy to treat people. So you have

Laura: 48:54

to have a positive energy in order because you, I think if you're not grounded in your energy, you affect the patients in front of you. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think that it, that's why we got along, I think immediately, because we both own businesses. We're not into hustle culture. We're growing our businesses, a steady pace that's reasonable and allows us maybe not as fast as others. It's not as fast as other people, but also I see the other side where people grow really fast, not even in pd, but just in any other industry. And then they're stressed out, you know, and making all this money, not traveling, not having supportive relationships, and just like there's a whole panel of wealth. Wealth is time, wealth is. Relationships. Wealth is your health. Wealth is money.

Speaker 2: 49:41

Mm-hmm.

Laura: 49:41

It can be money too. And then, um, yeah, like, and then your inner, inner world too, like your mental health and all of that. And so if any of those buckets are empty, we focus on capitalism. Like, don't get me wrong, I love making money, but it's like money is here, everything else is down here. And I think that's. That's making us unhappy and sick. And so that's why I think it's hard being young with cancer because you have this mindset, at least I do, of like an 80-year-old. Like every decision I make now is like, would I be proud of this on my deathbed? Because I remember true looking out the window, my first chemo, I say this all the time, it's just I remember being like, why the hell did I live for everybody else and not myself? And so it's, so for me it's like crystal clear, like, no, I'm not gonna make that business decision even though it would make me so much money. But I would be miserable. Mm-hmm. Right. And

Speaker 3: 50:31

so it could be a little, which trying to be grateful of. I mean, I'm so grateful I found that, I mean, I wish I would've found that out in my twenties or, you know, I wish

Laura: 50:38

I would've always had it. I wish I,

Speaker 3: 50:40

I try to teach my kids some of that now. I think we should learn that in childhood. But

Laura: 50:44

yeah.

Speaker 3: 50:44

How, like, I wouldn't have, I don't think I would've gotten to where I am now. The amount of personal growth, would you, do you think you would've if you hadn't gone? No way? I was dead inside.'cause it's a wake up call. It's like the, you know. Little things in like little annoyances in life. Sure. It still annoys me, but it, I don't take it nearly as serious. Like a thousand percent. Yeah.

Laura: 51:04

But then I can get a little lonely because like, people our age are hustling, hustling, hustling, or getting caught up in being just a, like a mom and be like, everything's about the kids, and like everything's about work and ignore myself. And I'm like, I just, I don't understand that. But I used to be that I didn't have kids. Um, but there, that's the culture for women. And that's like you said, why

Speaker 3: 51:29

we clicked.'cause we both got that. It's like, just like, I don't

Laura: 51:31

wanna hustle

Speaker 3: 51:32

all the time. Yeah. And moms too. It's like you need to make time for yourself. Like it's not healthy for anyone when you just feel like your only focus is your children. Um, or your job or you know, any, any, just like any, any one focus, laser focus. And I worked with a lot of really elite clientele when I worked in San Francisco and. Like you said, money doesn't always bring the happiness, but it can too. Like it can, if you do the work and then the money, it's like whoosh. It can bring a lot of amazing, you can give, you can do a lot of amazing things in the world with money. Yeah. But it also, you don't wanna wreck your health to get that money and then you are just miserable.

Laura: 52:11

What I see you've probably seen this is I've seen people make so much money and by the time they make all their money, like their health has gone to shift. Yes. So then they take all that money to work on their health versus like if it was more at a sustainable pace to make that kind of money, we might not be in a situation, but it's not blaming people, it's our culture and this needs to shift. But this kind of, kind of e going into this now about our changes post. Chemo is, both of us have agreed that we believe we're in early perimenopause because of this. And then we're gaslit saying mm-hmm we're too young.

Speaker 3: 52:46

Last week, my oncologist, I said, uh, you know, I've gained weight since I turned 40. I, I am just noticing changes in my body. I mean, I noticed changes immediately after chemo and vulva health and clitoral stim, you know, ability to have an orgasm. Like she completely was like, you're way too young for that. No. Oh, this, oh, chemo does not put you in. Um, you are not gonna have a early perimenopause and menopause because of chemo. I'm like,

Laura: 53:11

how can people say that?

Speaker 3: 53:12

I know. Like, and I had to call, I was like, Mary, I don't understand. Like, how does that any logical sense? You've destroyed my ovaries. Yeah. You've, I, I can see changes. Like, I, you go into menopause for, you know, four months, five, some people don't ever come out of it. I mean, I'm grateful I got my cycle back, but it wasn't, I'm like, it's never been normal. Oh, absolutely. Since I got my period back and my oncologist was like, well, you got your period back. And I was like, that doesn't mean anything. It's not been 28. It's not normal like it used to be. That's

Laura: 53:41

not even the definition of perimenopause. Yeah. And it's like any of these changes, even if it's not in the blood work, it shows and we're in this age range and we've had chemotherapy. I think like for me it was interesting. It was like I, as soon as, so I lost my period. I couldn't even feel my clitoris like it was like, is it ever coming back? Um, sex was weird because you're just like, do your partner's, like, are you okay? Like, this is like, you look like a patient, you know, you're like, I'm bald. I got a chemo port. Like, that's not, like, it's not sexy. You're not like mad. This is like ing like just raging wonderful sex. You're just like, why are we like, should I even be having sex? Like, do we even want to, like, what's going on? And it's just the weirdest. And you don't feel sexy at all? No. I had my

Speaker 3: 54:30

hair, but you know you have no eyebrows, you have no eyelashes, you have no, I mean the pubic hair on and leg hair was lovely. But yeah. Having surgery, no breast sensation, fake boobs. I had expanders, which felt like armor. I mean, it's not sexy and it changes your. Yeah, it changes things and nobody preps you really for that. And it's not like it would change your decisions necessarily. But there would, it would be nice to have a little acknowledgement that you're not crazy. She made me feel like I was crazy last week.

Laura: 54:58

No, no, you're not. And I've actually had that where I'm like, I gained same thing. I randomly had gained like 30 pounds. I, my blood sugar was going wild, my cholesterol was insane. My blood pressure went up. It's normally one 10 over 70. It went up to like one 40 over 90. But these

Speaker 3: 55:16

are all things that can happen in perimenopause.

Laura: 55:18

Yeah. But it was like, and then, so that was kind of when I started getting so passionate about teaching people about perimenopause.'cause my earliest sign was the weight gain. Then it was like severe acne. Then the periods were so lovely. Horrible. Yeah. The cystic acne on my back and face, I was like, oh, this is hot. Like didn't know I'd still have this shit when I like in my late thirties, and it wasn't until like the last year, I was like, oh my God, I've been in perimenopause this whole time. And I had been gaslit by being like, you're too young. You're too young. But I'm like, I already have history of endometriosis. And so sometimes when people have endometriosis, like the, your ovaries can be more affected from that depending on where your endometriosis is. And so you can might, you might see symptoms sooner. And I fit into that. Like I literally fit into like every category, you know? I was like, oh, great. Like I am this, whatever. And so that's what made me so passionate is like everybody was saying hormones, hormones, hormones. But like. I wasn't ready to get on hormones because I had just gone through chemo. And even though it's not breast cancer, it was, it was just this thing of like, let me learn my body and what is it trying to tell me? And that's why I'm so passionate about, like, if people wanna take hormones, great, but even when you take hormones, there's still things you need to do to help understand your body. And some of the biggest things for me is like understanding blood sugar. Like I was, you know, you and I, she's been

Speaker 3: 56:41

educating me about it and I'm so stoked. I ordered my monitor. I'm gonna start next week. I'm really excited because nobody gay teaser. Nobody's really, I mean, I'd heard it, but, um, it's just like, stop eating this and that and this, and I'm like, I've already eat healthy. Like, and I didn't change anything. Same, like nothing. I work out a lot. I, you know, if anything, I think I'm managing my stress better. I've done a ton of personal growth. Like if anything, I think I'm doing things better than I used to, but I still gain 50. Yeah, you're so chill. Yeah. But if you gain 15 pounds out nowhere, you're kind of like, okay. Yeah, but I see it. And it's not even just cancer survivor. I mean we've seen, you know, patients that have hysterectomies that in their thirties from fibroids. I mean, there's so many people hy categories with still having the ovaries. Aries too. Ov. Yes. And my friend who had her a dermoid and lost her ovary, she still has one ovary. But are you gonna tell me it doesn't affect anything when you have big things like that? Because she had the same experience. She gained 15 pounds. We were talking about it, and it's like there's changes happening and it can happen early. Totally. It doesn't have to happen at 45, 46, 50. Well,

Laura: 57:45

the reason

Speaker 3: 57:46

to the,

mary: 57:46

like the glucose is super important but it, it's one of the most foundational, like things in perimenopause is help, like that's like the weight gain issue is a lot of times is from that. And so basically like your liver. Needs to breakdown your estrogen. So in this case it's estradiol. It's the type of estrogen that we are, um, slowly reducing with perimenopause. And so the liver needs to break that down. So then it's secreted into, they call metabolites, and then those metabolites, are broken down in three different ways. And, and then it's excreted into, our, our bowel. So we poop it out. But sometimes. If our poop is backed up, we can get those metabolites that kind of linger a little bit longer. We can get excess estrogen symptoms, or maybe the body starts pumping out extra estrogen'cause it senses that it's down. So a lot of perimenopause symptoms are actually like a high fluctuation and then a crash. Most times we think, oh, it's just declining. It's like, no, it shoots up and comes down. So, um, an estrogen, estrodiol, or an estrogen, so I'll just say estrogen just to make it easier, but basically like estrogen supports. Insulin. And so when that starts declining, it causes us to have more insulin resistance. So eating things that we would normally eat, even though it's considered healthy, but it's spiking our blood sugar, our insulin isn't as, our body's not as responsive to that insulin, so we develop more blood sugar issues. That's why we get belly fat, because then the fat loves to stay there when we have more. Glucose moving around in our bloodstream. And so on top of that, the liver processes sugar. So now we're processing estrogen plus that sugar, right? Mm-hmm. So it's, it can get overloaded. And the way I describe it is like, um, it's like the lines at Costco on a holiday weekend. So what can we do to support her liver during this time? And glucose, like, uh, understanding your blood sugar is gonna be super important even though it looks normal. And, um. You were like, wearing the glucose monitor was super important for me'cause I started realizing if I didn't sleep well, it spiked easier. Um, my blood sugar was higher if I had more than one cup of coffee. Um, and the other thing was my inhaler at the time. And so the biggest impact that I had made on my blood sugar is decreasing my caffeine intake, like substantially.'cause we think it's just caffeine. But it can do that. So I'm interested to see. Yeah, I'm

Speaker 3: 1:00:14

super excited to see where my sensitivities are or what is triggering.'cause you can tell things change and, and I think the, the advice of just, you know, take these, like I was trying, you know, you start getting targeted on Facebook with all these weird supplements for menopause and. You can lose five pounds and this and that, but you're not really solving the issue, the root issue. Right. And I know we're both, well then you're overloading

Laura: 1:00:35

your liver with supplements.

Speaker 3: 1:00:37

Yeah. So we're both passionate in our businesses too, on like we need to figure out the root of the issue for our clients is the same thing for anyone. Right? Like yeah. I'm like, oh, okay. If blood sugar, I've already known, I've always been sensitive to blood sugar. I'm sure we all are in certain ways, but especially more in perimenopause. Yeah. So I'm excited to see what it tells me.

Laura: 1:00:59

Well, and it's like, you know, and then there's other brands that will help you understand why your blood sugar's spiking and crashing. But I think you have a basic understanding of it. So if anybody else doesn't, there's different companies that will help guide you, or you can work with a dietician or a nutritionist. Um, but I think it's important for us to kind of see those spikes and crashes, but just observing it as a third party and not shaming yourself with it. But from like a PT perspective, you know, we can help with helping people understand how to strength train.'cause the more we can get that muscle, the muscle loves that glucose. It wants it. And so that's another big reason too. You know, we're talking about build strength to help with build with strong bones, but I'm like. You know, it will help our blood sugar

Speaker 3: 1:01:41

as

Laura: 1:01:41

well. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:01:42

But that's what we both have become really passionate in the perimenopause community because we're kind of headed there, but also we're in there. We're in there. But also we feel as PTs, we have a lot we could. Help with as well. And it doesn't have to just be HRT and just Medical Western Medical Management, you know, acupuncture. There's so many other tools, but we both feel we have a lot we could offer as well.

Laura: 1:02:07

Totally. And it's like, like vis, like, so constipation. So if somebody's constipated, you know, we need to get people to poop because otherwise you can kind of get a buildup of some of that estrogen and then that's when you can kind of get the. S you know, crazy fluctuating symptoms of like hot flashes and stuff like that. So if you're not pooping, like visceral mobility, like you and I were working on each other the other day on. Helping improve the gut diaphragm mobility. Mm-hmm. Like what are some other things that you use for constipation

Speaker 3: 1:02:34

when you were doing, she was doing fascial work on my scars and, uh, I've had a lot of tightness just since my double mastectomy and like fascial fascia changes when we go into this stage of life. So it's even more important to keep mobility, lymphatic flow

Speaker 2: 1:02:51

mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 1:02:52

And help aid our. Our body in that way, and we are really good at that stuff as PTs.

mary: 1:02:58

Well, I don't think we're thinking we're, we're thinking of oh HRT, but I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like we can do a lot more like fascial mobility, right? So it's like that first layer of fascia, that superficial layer between the skin. You've got fat and then you've got fascia that's superficial layer and you've got these skin liga, that ligaments that connect to it. Most of our lymphatic system flows through there. So when our. You know, like you were saying, when the fascia changes, so when estrogen decreases, it becomes like type one collagen. So it's thicker. So that tissue, it, that highway, you know, the fascia is the highway of the lymphatic system. So if you're impaired with that, now you've got, you can get brain fog, you can get swelling, you can kind of get all these symptoms of perimenopause. That we think might be this, you know, from decrease in rine, but what if it's actually impaired lymphatic flow? So maybe they're on the hormones, but we're not addressing the fascial mobility and we've got all these backed up highways. And we're wondering why we feel like shit.

Speaker 3: 1:03:57

And we've both seen it where patients tried HRT and they just didn't tolerate it. Like, what do we do with all those people? It's a lot of people though, too. It's a lot of people. And, um, I've seen huge gains in just, yeah, doing visceral therapy, fascial work, like you said, strengthening, working on, like, we, there's a lot we can offer, I think.

Laura: 1:04:15

And the nervous system, toot world, like h helping people understand their HRV, so their heart rate variability. So much of heart rate variability. It's like a huge, huge help for. Measuring stress, but like so many PTs are unaware of like actually what HRV is and how to use it as a tool. And I actually just made a PDF to kind of help, um, people understand it. But so much of it has been focused on athletes and like physical changes and sleep. But the piece that we're not looking at with HRV is, um, is emotional health. And so as women, especially going through perimenopause. Perimenopause makes you not tolerate bullshit, but because your estrogen's declining, you don't have the capacity for stuff that you used to put up with anymore. Now, but during this time though, like I, I've even made a little list like. Of things like if your HRD Dr HRV dropped, right? So we want higher HRV because that means we're getting more variability between the bigger spike, like the, the quicker speeds of the heart rate. So if we're stressed, it goes fast and then it will go slow. So when it transitions, that's a, that's, and we, that happens a lot throughout the day. We're getting higher variability. So that's a good thing'cause it's coming back to a baseline. But things like we, we were just saying like, are we taking time for ourselves? Um, am I doing things I don't wanna do because I'm worried somebody's gonna be mad? Did I say yes when I wanted to say no? Did I take on something that I didn't have capacity for? Like, these are things as women, like, can even just the way we think can transform how we feel during perimenopause. I believe it. Yeah. Even just like yesterday, you and I getting all worked up about our businesses. Yeah. And then it was like, okay, so we got worked up. We were like, oh. You know what was like and, and we both like came down this morning, you were meditating and journaling. I went out on the deck and I was like, I need to ground myself. Yeah. I

Speaker 3: 1:06:11

can't. We took that a little too far, but then we need to bring ourselves back. Yes. And be like, Hey, everything's okay. We're fine. But this is what happens a lot in business. I think it happens in a lot of aspects of life, but we need to learn to bring ourselves back like. You can be pissed, you can grieve, you can be frustrated. You can be stressed, but you can't just stay in that.

Laura: 1:06:31

Yeah, you gotta, and the thing I get annoyed with is in this wellness culture, it's like, oh, let's always be and rest and digest. And I'm like, if you are living fully presently in this world and are actively in it, it is impossible because you can almost get in a car accident or like you almost get in a fender bender, your heart rate's gonna go up'cause you're scared or whatever. Right. Or. Maybe you see something and you get excited, it comes up and then it comes down and cortisol gets a bad rep. Cortisol's not a bad thing. It helps us stay awake. It helps us function. It's when we stay in that

Speaker 3: 1:07:04

we just can't stay in that chronically. And a lot of people, I'm sure you see it too, like especially with chronic pain, I mean, it sucks. Like it does suck. Like it's really shitty. It's a, like, it's not fair. Mm-hmm. But it, it doesn't help to just stay in this negative spiral of like. This and that and this, and now I can't do this and now this, and I don't know. I, I've been trying to incorporate some of the stuff I've learned with clients and I, I'm not gr, you know, I'm working on it, but I do think it's so important because we can't just treat. PT and ignore all these other aspects? Well,

Laura: 1:07:37

the A PTA actually just opened up our, um, I don't know if you saw that recently. Our scope of practice. Oh, really? To include more mental health. I've just always done it. I think, I mean, it's literally, you can't be treating somebody and not understand like what they're going through, you know? And, uh, yeah, no, exactly. I think it's, it's important to understand what our triggers are, how to bring ourselves down. That's why I get frustrated with like the whole. Um, let's just, just do breath work and nervous system regulation, but I'm like, we can do those things. Yes, those are tools. Those are not solutions. The, the deeper tool thing is why are those things coming up? Where did I learn this right? I need, and using neuroplasticity, like retraining your brain when we are in chronic, when you're in trauma, like. Am working through and have worked through a lot of complex PTSD issues is like you go black and white when you're in that, there's no gray area. So I try to get people to be like, Hey, well what also could be true, right? Because when we're in fight or flight, we wanna go to protect. So like our whole body, it doesn't know a difference between being chased by a bear or you know, telling us that we're safe. It just knows one or the other. And so we have to show our body. That it's safe. But if we're constantly in this negative loop in our thoughts, like, oh my God, should I not eat this piece of, um, cupcake because this and this, and then you start obsessing about the cupcake and at that point just eat it. Yeah. Like, just eat it, you know? But maybe you don't eat it every day, or things like that. Or maybe we don't sit in shame for a while, or maybe we call a friend when we're feeling like we're that, like you and I were like helping pull each other out of it, you know. It's staying in these little loops. And I think so much of it is our culture is men are, you know, if we're talking about it from like a heterosexual sense, it's like men are, they make the money and like that's their value. And then women have the babies and like take care of everybody. And like this is breaking our culture because now,'cause a lot of

Speaker 3: 1:09:33

those womens are working full time and taking care of everything and the men have a lot of stress on their selves. But it's just this like. Well, the women. Yeah, the women are

Laura: 1:09:42

taking on all of it, all the emotional. And the men have been told, don't have emotions. Yes. Don't cry. Hold it in. And so now they're all having their own crisis, their own, I think a lot of men are having their own

Speaker 3: 1:09:53

crisis. They

Laura: 1:09:53

have their own perimenopause they're going through. Yeah. Like to test testosterone's, declining, like they're going through their stuff. And so. And then the women's movement, I think is getting angry at them for everything that they've done. And then it's like shoving them down more. And I'm like, this is not the answer. Like, love is the answer.

Speaker 3: 1:10:14

And I do think it's important that, uh, like, you know, working with a therapist, working with acupuncture, like there's so many amazing people out there. It's not just one tool.

Laura: 1:10:23

Totally. And it can be a

Speaker 3: 1:10:24

whole team of people helping. Different people in different ways. I, you know, I don't think it needs to be one person or one solution. Mm-hmm. Like, everyone always wants that quick fix. Like, give me my progesterone and my estrogen and that's amazing. I've seen people do amazing with HRT. Neither of us, we both believe in it.

Laura: 1:10:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:10:39

But it's just thinking a little bit more outside of the box in other ways.

Laura: 1:10:43

Well, if you're on HRT and you know, you're, you're taking it and it's going well, but you haven't addressed why you run around with your head cut off all the time. It's not gonna be as effective. Yeah. In my, like, from what I've seen. Mm-hmm. Right. I, I'm not giving any studies on that. I'm just seeing from my clinical experience, the people that do really well with it. Also, I mean, I don't currently, I'm not tolerating progesterone, so I'm having to do this in the way of blood sugar regulation, nervous system regulation, um, mindfulness exercise, strength training, like. Really focusing on, and you

Speaker 3: 1:11:15

tried it and you gave it a good solid shot in different ways, it didn't

Laura: 1:11:18

work. But I also, the other piece that's been helping my nervous system the most is just trusting that there's something greater than us looking out for me. If something doesn't work out in my life, another door is gonna open. Yeah. And I, I get out of that phase when I'm not grounded. But so much of it is an invitation to understand our bodies and like what, what our bodies are asking for. And if we can't sit with that, it's really hard to even know what it's asking for. Even if you take HRT. So thank you for joining me on this. It was, it was really on this lovely couch, a beautiful view. You should see our tripod right now that's on top of a Burke and. Five books and a hun a piece of a bottle of honey holding up the phone.'cause I didn't bring a, uh, tripod. But how can people contact you if they wanna learn more about you?

Speaker 3: 1:12:03

Yeah, so I'm on social media at Dynamic Flow Physical Therapy. Uh, like I said, this is an area I'm really diving in as well. And, um, yeah, so I'd love to connect and I follow Mary and all her knowledge and I'm excited for the things you're gonna bring out. Um, yeah. Whichever direction it goes.

Laura: 1:12:21

Yeah. Well, I'm excited that you're on this journey with me and I'm so grateful that we met. So,

Speaker 3: 1:12:26

yes, thanks for having me.

1:12:28

Thank you so much for listening to my podcast. It would be a huge help if you could subscribe and rate the podcast. It helps us reach more people and make a bigger impact. I would also love it if you could join my email list, which is LinkedIn, the caption for podcast updates, upcoming offers and events. You can also find me on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram at Dr. Mary pt. Thanks again.