#97 Why Fighting Anxiety, Stress, and Cravings Makes Them Worse with Ed Halliwell

In this episode, Max sits down with mindfulness teacher Ed Halliwell to expose the hidden reason women stay stuck in emotional eating, anxiety, and self-sabotage even when they’re “doing everything right.”

You’ll learn:

Why trying to “fix” your emotions is what’s keeping you stuck
How food, scrolling, alcohol, and shopping are just symptoms of emotional avoidance
Why emotional eating isn’t about discipline — and willpower will always fail when feelings show up
How your feelings are actually messages — not problems
The ONE mindset shift that can break the cycle of bingeing, guilt, and shame
Simple mindfulness practices you can use in the moment to stop reacting, start noticing, and take your power back

This episode will challenge everything you’ve been taught about weight loss, motivation, and control — and reveal the missing skill that no one ever taught you.

If you’re tired of losing weight, gaining it back, and blaming yourself for every “bad” choice…

Ed's Website: https://edhalliwell.com/

Watch my The Cravings & Fat-Burning Masterclass:  https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/register-podcast

Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/max.lowery/

Book a Food Freedom Breakthrough Call: https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/call-ig

Transcript

Facing What We Avoid

Max Lowery 0:00

What if the very thing you're trying to avoid is the reason you feel stuck? Anxiety, stress, overwhelm, the uncomfortable feeling you can't quite name. Most people spend their lives running from these feelings. They eat, they scroll, they work harder, they numb out. And for a few minutes, it works. But then the feeling comes back stronger, louder, and more demanding. In this episode, I'm sitting down with Ed Halliwell, my mindfulness coach, and now the mindfulness coach within my Live360 program to talk about this exact subject. We talk about how why trying to fix your emotions actually makes them worse, why willpower fails when feelings show up, and why emotional eating has nothing to do with discipline. You'll hear how accepting uncomfortable feelings instead of fighting them can break the cycle of anxiety, guilt, and self-sabotage. This approach feels counterintuitive, but it's the missing skill nobody taught you. How do you create a life that allows you to lose weight, eat the foods that you love, and sustain the results? Over the last 10 years, I've had thousands of people do exactly that. I'm Max Lamery, I'm an author, personal trainer, and weight loss coach. In this podcast, I'm going to share my top tips and tricks from within my one-on-one coaching program. It's my goal to give you the tools and the understanding so that you never die again. Ed and I have already recorded a podcast going into depth about what mindfulness is and kind of our background. So if you want to understand more about the context of this conversation, it'll be worth going and listening to that. But today we're going to be talking about something very interesting and very current. But uh Ed, could you just very briefly describe who you are and um why you got into this?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

So thank you, Max. It's it's great to be with you again. Um and uh so um my background is coming to mindfulness through um working with my own kind of uh, if you like, well-being journey. Uh I experienced quite a lot of um uh depression and anxiety in my in my early adult life. Um and I found mindfulness in my late 20s as an approach to help understand and manage that. And I found it was a transformational practice over time. So it gradually taught me how to um how to be with and approach the kind of ups and downs of mood, of um kind of habits of of automatic thinking that were perhaps contributing to uh episodes of low mood and anxiety, um, and and help me to uh work with them. And as time has gone on, um developing that and deepening that. So I've ended up as a mindfulness teacher really through that through that journey and of wanting to share it with other people. So the more I explored it for myself, the more opportunities opened up to train and to uh begin to uh share it with others too.

Max Lowery 3:46

Thanks for sharing it. And I remember from the last conversation that we had, you went into quite a lot of detail uh specifically uh about your anxiety. And I remember you described um a profound moment. I think did you say you were sitting in the bath? And do you want to discuss anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah, well, I assume it's not the moment that I'm thinking of. I I don't share lots of experiences of being in the bath, so I imagine it was this one. Um so yeah, I mean, this was actually the moment that I um that the depression and anxiety lifted after it was actually in a nearly three-year period of of being continually anxious and depressed uh and really struggling with that. Uh and so um, as quite often happens, low mood and anxiety can self-perpetuate. Um, so what can happen over time is that that um the actual experience of depression and anxiety itself becomes the cause of depression and anxiety. So whatever may have triggered it in the first place, you know, for me it was in this instance it was the end of a relationship, but actually that that had long since passed. Um and it it became this cycle of of um you know the low mood and the the unpleasantness of that experience actually triggering my resistance to it, which then kept it going. So prior to this moment in the bath, um I'd I think finally stopped and finally allowed myself to have some space where I didn't do very much at all. I had learned to meditate probably about six months before. So that was beginning to become possible, this experience of actually just sitting with being and all of the erasing thoughts and tension and you know, wobbly stomach and discomfort that was that was part of that um experience. And I'd got to the point where I was able just to let it be. And it was about 10 days after just letting it be that I was in the bath at about 11 o'clock in the morning, uh, late August, and realized that for the first time in nearly three years I felt alright. And actually, I wasn't in a space of anxiety, and that my mind wasn't going round and round in the same way. And that was the beginning of something lifting that very powerfully taught me: hey, there's something here that's worthwhile practicing.

Max Lowery 6:24

Thanks for sharing it. And the reason I think that's relevant today's comp to today's conversation, because what it sounds like you're saying is you kind of accepted how you were feeling and were no longer trying to fight it and resist it. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Yes. I mean, that doesn't mean it was the end of fighting and resisting, because it's an ongoing process of working with this. Um, but it was it was really my first experience of of ex of what acceptance could bring, um, which was completely opposite of what you know my kind of habit pattern was, which was, you know, if I accept it, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of go under. Um, and actually discovering that that allowing these difficult thoughts and sensations to be there without fighting them actually produced uh a freedom that I could never have imagined happening as a result of that. Yeah.

Max Lowery 7:17

And I had a similar situation. Again, you need to listen to the podcast for the for the full um for the full description of it, but I had the derealization, depersonalization, panic attacks, uh, which were which were well, I would say the panic attacks were secondary to the deep the derealization and depersonalization I was experiencing because I had these very strong reactions to the physical sensations that I was uh experiencing. So I had these the derealization, and then I had, I was like, what is this? There's something wrong with me. I'm stuck like this forever. I'm never gonna, I'm not gonna be able to do my job, I'm not gonna be able to do all these things, which stirred me up into a state of panic and stress and fight or flight. And it was through a conversation with our mutual friend Umzanna, um, I'll say her name, um who helped me, who basically, in so many words, told me to uh ride the wave and to uh accept it ultimately. And so, and that had a huge impact. So I still had the physical sensations, but I was no longer panicking about it and going into panic attacks and and it uh being made worse with my secondary reactions to it. And so we ended up working together. So, what I wanted to talk about today is this idea of acceptance and how what I've seen personally, but also with clients, is how there does seem to be a t a tendency to avoid negative feelings. And should we even label them as negative is I want to talk about today. Um, so from your experience, you know, doing this and and working in this field, how how would you say most people relate to these quote-unquote negative feelings of anxiety, sadness, guilt, and frustration?

Why Fixing Feelings Backfires

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Well, I would say that most of us relate to them in ways that are completely understandable, uh, which is that we don't like them and we want to get rid of them. Uh and I say understandable because like it, you know, who wants to sit with pain? Um, or you know, like in your case, you know, derealizations, you know, really unpleasant experience. And so, of course, it it it um it triggers our desire to get rid of them. Um and this also works really well in many aspects of our lives, you know. It's like we've we've learned that um, you know, uh if if you put your hand on a hot stove, it's gonna hurt. So the instinct is to pull away, which is very healthy, right? Because it means you don't get burnt, hopefully. Yeah, so so in all sorts of areas of our lives, we have evolved to shrink from unpleasant experiences, to withdraw, or to try and fight them and stop them, you know, to nullify them that way. And in those situations, staying with the discomfort is um you know completely unhelpful. You know, you will get burned, you know, you will get eaten by the lion, or you know, whatever the situation is. Um so in some sense it goes against all of our uh evolutionary learning um to stay with something unpleasant. Now the problem is that when it comes to an experience that's within us, trying to get away from it is very often counterproductive. So um if you're experiencing, you know, kind of like depersonalization, derealization experiences, and you attempt to get rid of it um by whatever means, um it's not possible in the moment because it's just there, you don't control it, you're not controlling that experience. And so any attempt to move away from it, you're gonna take yourself with you. And therefore you're still gonna be having that experience. Only now, there may be on top of the derealization a sense of failure of not being able to fix it or fight it or get rid of it, and frustration then arises, and then panic potentially, like your experience. Well, you know, panic arises because oh my god, I can't get rid of this. It's still with me, and everything I'm doing isn't working. And suddenly we've got, you know, the secondary stress on top of that primary stress. Or in my example, you know, I was experiencing anxiety and I didn't want it, and so I do everything to try and get rid of it, even some of the helpful things, but in a very anxious way. Um, and that desperation fed the anxiety, and so I ended up being more anxious and more running and more fighting and therefore more anxious. So it's like this this helpful, um, helpful approach, um, which is sometimes called discrepancy monitoring, where you see something you don't want and then you try to take the actions to get rid of it. It doesn't work when it comes to our inner world, emotions, because you can't just fix and fight emotions in the moment. It requires a different process to work with them. It's also true for external things that are not fixable, you know, kind of like situations that you can't change. But um, emotions are um, you know, can't be got rid of. Now they can be distracted from, we might be able to avoid them for a while by paying attention to something else. But generally speaking, we'll find ourselves snapping back into this is still here in some form, no matter what distraction we we um, you know, that might work in the short term.

Distraction Habits And Their Costs

Max Lowery 13:03

Yeah, it's very interesting. And I like the fact that you used avoiding and distracting there, because I say that's kind of what I see a lot of the women I I work with, um, and even not just the the clients, but friends and family is distracting themselves and numbing themselves from these quote unquote negative feelings. And I would say the typical things that they are using to distract and avoid, number one, food. Obviously, emotional eating is a big one. Um, food does have a powerful uh response, and we it can make us feel good and it can make us um uh kind of numb uh life in a certain way. But then also phones, so screen time, uh Netflix, spinging Netflix, for example, uh workaholics, so excessive working, shopping, online shopping is a big one. Um alcohol, of course, drugs. Are these things that you've seen as well?

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Oh yeah, yeah. Um so all of these are um potentially mood-altering experiences, aren't they? You know, they kind of they they all um have the potential for um shifting a mood in the short term. So actually, you know, they do work. So like, you know, back distraction into to whatever means taking our attention to something and connecting with it, and then um experiencing perhaps a mood-altering effect of attending to uh to whatever it is. So, you know, you watch a Netflix show, you know, you you um have a beer, uh, you um eat a cake, uh, you get involved in a work project and you meet a deadline, you know, that's gonna produce kind of bursts of pleasant sensation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that or problematic about that. Umly the effect is short term. So after a while, the film ends, the cake's finished, you drunk the beer, it's worn off, the effect's worn off, and then you're back to not having addressed what is actually going on uh that's that's you know, caught that cause the um uh the unpleasant experience in your body in the first place. So the likelihood is that that the circumstances producing that are still there, um, or the feeling is is is you know is still there. And so the the problem remains, um and so you've got to do it again, and you've got to do it again. And then after that becomes a habit, because if we repeat it enough times, it starts to become a habit, then we may have a problem of, well, I'm spending X hours a day working, or I'm drinking, you know, X number of beers, um, et cetera, et cetera. Or I'm I'm eating and it's become a way that I I try to manage my feelings, and that's having negative consequences for me in a number of ways.

Max Lowery 17:08

Yeah, and that's exactly what I see with many of the clients that we work with. Um they're avoiding certain uncomfortable feelings and sensations or thoughts uh, often with food, and that leads to gradual weight gain, and then they have another big problem. Um and what's and this is just you know, we there's there's a whole host of potential costs, maybe we should talk about those first. Like, what would you say are the costs of not addressing these uh underlying uh feelings that you have and sensations that you have and just constantly distracting yourselves?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Well, it it it limits the range of responses that we can we can have. So if our our reaction to unpleasant feeling uh is um distracting, and that's the only tool we've got, then we're gonna find ourselves using it more and more because anything that we practice becomes a habit. So we might get into the habit of distracting, or we get into the habit of eating when we feel low. But you've identified that kind of a problem with that is that if we eat when we feel low rather than just when we need to eat, i.e., kind of for satiation, then the chances are we might put on some weight. And if we have a judgment about that putting on weight, i.e. it's or it's something we don't want, then um that then can feed unpleasant feeling. And maybe, you know, that sense of judgment. Um, you know, this isn't what I wanted, or I shouldn't eat. Oh, here am I, here I am, doing it again. So the cycle kind of feeds on itself, and then you need more to actually kind of it's a stronger feeling, so you need more food to have that same effect. So we're getting into a habit pattern, which becomes automatic, and increasing rather than diminishing the overall experience of unpleasantness that that's producing. So over time that can become, you know, worse and worse.

Max Lowery 19:20

And what you're describing is exactly the vicious cycle which most of our clients are stuck in when they come to work with us, um, is you know, they've been you they've been emotional eating for for whatever reasons for many years, then more weight has come on. They get and that creates, as you say, judgment and blame. And especially when our clients are high achieving and they're succeeding in other areas of their life. The kind of words I hear all the time, it's not simple. What's wrong with me? Why can't I stop eating? And they're kind of focusing, hyper focusing on the fact on the food and what they're eating. But really, that's the symptom of the issue. The root of the issue is the fact that they are not prepared at the moment or able to deal with these uncomfortable feelings and sensations. So they go down this route of using willpower and motivation and hard work to try and force themselves not to do the emotional eating.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah.

High Achievers, Goals, And Willpower Traps

Max Lowery 20:16

And at this time of year, when motivation is high, that works. But as soon as the motivation fades and uh life happens, you return back to what you what you know because you haven't actually learned how to deal with these emotions in a in a different way. Yeah. And the longer that goes on, the more self blame, the more judgment, it can actually then become a part of your identity where I am someone that has no control over food. I am someone that can't lose weight. And once that happens, then everything that you, every experience you have, you're going to be looking out for that to be true.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, yeah. So it kind of like as it becomes more of a habit and uh seems to be more of who we are, it can it could confirms itself. And the more it confirms itself, uh the less hope we seem to have. And uh you said something interesting, Max, which is about how um many of the people who come to you um are high achievers in you know many areas of their life. Um and I think that's relevant in in the sense that um what's happening in the way you describe this is that that people are using the same methods to try and high achieve with working with eating. So the um the way that works is we identify a goal and then we s we attempt to do the actions that lead towards that goal. So we have an image in our head of like what I would like to, you know, like what I would like to weigh, for example. Um, and then we treat it like a project. Um, you know, so it we treat it like, you know, a work deadline that we've got to meet. Um and and that's where the problem comes because because um what we're actually working with is the realm of feeling and emotion, which is not a project to complete. Feelings are there to be felt rather than got rid of. Um and so when we get this goal of how I would like to be, and we identify, well, I need to eat less food. Okay, that's the that's the that's the activity I need to do, and so it should be nice and straightforward, and I'll just move towards it. But it isn't just as simple as that because we're experiencing all the time these emotions that go on that seem to get in the way of that acting, get in the way of um fulfilling the goal. And so just doubling down and trying harder, well, I've I'm on this road, I've got to meet it, I've got to not eat it, I've got to use my willpower to get there. Now that might work okay if we're meeting a work deadline and we've got a project and you know we're able to focus in that way and it's it's done, but it's not a good long-term strategy, which is why New Year's resolutions very often don't work. And not only that, but as soon as we've not reached the goal, then the mind will start trying to work out why. So the same discrepancy monitor that's identified the problem in the first place is now going to use my failure as something to kind of to work on. Why can't I do it? What was the problem? I should be able to do this. I'm an intelligent person, I'm really successful in my life. I have loads of things I can achieve. It should work, and we've got that blame cycle coming in because you know, the obvious answer to that, well, it must be my identity, it must be who I am. I am a failure in this. That produces more unpleasant feelings, and away we go again.

Max Lowery 23:50

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, frustratingly uh and depressingly, I hear stories like that multiple times a day, every day. Um, I have probably uh around 500 one-on-one conversations a year with women who are thinking of working with us. And you know, we work with you know a percentage of those women and it's very, very similar. Um and actually it's interesting because I think what you're describing, this idea of um focusing, hyper-focusing on the objective and the outcome, using hard work and discipline to get there is a very much a Western idea. And what I've been aware of and leaning more into uh recently is looking at the Eastern kind of philosophy of Taoism, where rather than hyper focus on the objective and the goal, it's about creating the right conditions for the goal to happen anyway. And so the example that they use in uh Taoism is um you know you don't force a tree to grow, right? You give it the right conditions, which is the light, um, the carbon dioxide, the water, the soil, and as a byproduct, the the tree grows. And I feel like what you were describing there is more in line with the kind of Eastern approach. And one of those conditions is acceptance and compassion um and kind of letting go uh in order for you to actually achieve the things you want to achieve. And I feel like we've spoken about kind of the primary issues with avoiding uh negative emotions of you know potential weight gain and everything we just described. But I believe, and it would be interesting to hear your perspective on this, I think there's also potentially a secondary um cost to this. And that is uh there's I've been reading into this a lot recently, but there's a there's a growing body of evidence to suggest that actually these negative feelings serve a purpose. Um, they actually tell us something about our lives, which might not be where we want it to be, right? It's like a little messenger essentially. That's what emotions are, really. It's like messengers within your body. Um, and so by avoiding these negative feelings and avoiding the things that might actually need um attention, you're potentially keeping yourself stuck in situations which aren't serving you. Um, I would love to hear your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah, yeah. Well, um if you're um if you're distracting from what the body's telling you, you're unlikely to be listening to it and therefore unlikely to be responding to it. So yeah, if we take take the uh um the premise that um these are signals, these are messages from the body, uh so an unpleasant sensation is a is a signal of something, a pleasant sensation is also a signal of something, um, then if our reaction to them, let's say to an unpleasant sensation is to avoid it, then you cannot address the problem that it might be signaling. Um so uh it makes it it makes it very difficult then to um to make a change, make a helpful change, because we're effectively missing the information. We're not hearing what's going on, we're not in touch with what's going on. Um so um that invites us to take a different approach, which is actually to you know to hear the messenger. Um and you know, it's sometimes said, you know, don't shoot the messenger. Um it's a bit like that's what we're trying to do, is going, I don't like this feeling, so I need to get rid of it. But the as you say, the feeling could be something important. There is there is useful and helpful information here which is telling us something. So if we can actually listen to the messenger rather than try and shoot it, then we might be able to respond to uh the real issue rather than just the messenger delivering that information.

Eastern Conditions Versus Western Goals

Max Lowery 28:04

And listeners are probably wondering like, what on earth could that what purpose does this negative feeling have? Why could it be there? I'll give some examples from clients. Um, so the typical thing uh I hear from clients, they're turning to food because they're stressed, right? And stressed is quite a broad term. It doesn't really tell me anything. So we use the feelings wheel to get really specific with exactly how they're feeling. And often words like overwhelmed and powerless uh are uh or the the feelings of being overwhelmed and powerless uh are what we end up at. And it's like, oh, that's really interesting. Um, what what in your life, like why do you think you're feeling these feelings of uh of being overwhelmed? And then they talk about what's going on at work uh and how their boss or the team are you know giving too much work and they feel powerless and they're just feeling completely overwhelmed. And so their initial reaction is just to go and um suppress the feelings, right? They go home, they have a drink, they eat some food, and temporarily they suppress the feelings, but they go back to work the next day, the overwhelm and the feeling of powerless returns. So I feel like if you're able to lean into what you're feeling, ask yourself, okay, what's going on in my life for me to be repeatedly having these things? I think the word repeatedly is important because if you go start going down the route of trying to understand why something's happening as well, that can then create a whole um cycle of uh more anxiety. But if something repeatedly happening, I think by leaning into these feelings, you can then potentially um improve the situation at work where I'm feeling overwhelmed and powerless. What can I do in order to change the situation? So maybe uh it's I feel less overwhelmed and less powerless. And I see a lot of clients never really go down that route, and these problems just stay. And things never stay the same, they either get better or they get worse. So nothing changing doesn't mean nothing changing. Nothing changing means things getting worse. Um so that's um, I don't know if you have any other examples or within.

Emotions As Information

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Uh, and so to kind of continue, continue from it. Um if we deal with those unpleasant sensations with some form of distraction, as you say, you then go back to work the next day and and experience the same again, which invites more distracting, um it doesn't um it doesn't get to the there's actually a couple of roots of the of the of the issue. So one is is like you say, you you can't address the um the actual real causes of the frustration, the overwhelm, whatever is creating the stress. Um but also by avoiding it you're uh um adding the uh secondary stress on top of it. So you've got the feeling and the reaction to the feeling. So I'd suggest actually that you know the kind of the first helpful um part of this approach of mindfulness is actually coming to meet those feelings themselves. Okay, so so before we get into what can I do at work differently that would reduce my stress, because actually most people, you know, kind of they might at least cognitively or intellectually know that they're not happy at work, for example, for some reason. They might even know what's causing it, it's because I've got too much on, or it's because of, you know, like my uh, you know, the person I work with is is you know annoying the hell out of me. Um, or actually I'm in the wrong job, you know, and I don't really enjoy this kind of work. So, you know, um often we might know that that's the case, but somehow the way of um working with it, which is to avoid to just go home and you know drink wine or eat food or um um watch TV, um it it further exacerbates that that um disconnection with ourselves, which might enable us to carry on with it, um, to sort of numb ourselves out from it. But we've got this problem now of being disconnected from ourselves. So I would say before um making changes, unless we're in you know circumstances where that you know changes need to be made quickly, the work of mindfulness is actually coming to reconnect, to reconnect with um our bodies, to reconnect with um those emotions and notice what those thoughts are, so that we can actually stay present with the difficulty, uh stay present with what the experience is, because otherwise the action that we might take to try and ameliorate the situation might be in itself quite reactive. So we might like impulsively quit our job, you know, or we might try to do lots of fixes within it, um, almost like a series of New Year's resolutions. I will not do this at my work and I won't do this, and I'll I'll relate with this better. But it's all happening from a kind of like a reactive quick fix. Um it's almost like another kind of avoidance. I'm I'm finding another way to get rid of this feeling. So you're attempting to address the feeling rather than the problem. And if you're attempting to address the feeling and we need to get rid of it, then virtually any attempt will be a quick fix attempt. And the chances are it won't be either very long-lasting or very effective. So by coming to actually lean into the experience of the discomfort and to learn how to stay with it, then we've got a bit of space where we might start to be able to address what is actually going on in this situation. Like what really is needed in terms of changing our relationship to it. And because we're present, because we're actually here with it, that quality of reactivity isn't there, of avoidance. And that means we're more likely to make skillful choices and sustainable choices in terms of the behavior change that we make. So um it becomes more likely to be successful. So that's why I'd suggest that this approach of actually meeting the difficult experiences is so valuable. Now, having said that, it's also often quite uncomfortable, unpleasant in itself, because we're saying I'm gonna do the opposite of what evolution has taught me to do, which is to try and get rid of this as quickly as possible. I'm gonna move towards it and hold it. Well, ouch. You know, I'm still in this situation and it's and it's painful. So it's it's not actually an easy sell in some senses, you know. Um, in some sense, we're saying to people, you know, kind of what they least want to hear, which is like embrace the experience of the unpleasant. Well, why the hell would anyone want to do that? Well, in the short term, you're right. Why, why would we? But so there has to be a kind of a trust, actually, and a faith with someone that um this could be beneficial in the long term, even though in the medium term it may seem like nothing's happening, or even that we're feeling worse than when we started. But that's the nature of sustainable behavior change. And it's why we don't want to do it, but it's worth it. So, you know, we've had lots of bad news so far. The good news is that it is worth it. You can do it. It's not easy, it takes work and it takes, as you say, repetition. This is why mindfulness often involves meditation practices where we're repeating this over and over again, repeating this work of coming into our bodies and uh noticing the avoidance and the aversion and the reaction and practicing coming back. Over time, we can shift the habits and can create something new. And over time, those can become sustainable, and it's like a virtuous spiral rather than a vicious cycle. So the the long-term reward can be really, really great, but you know, that can be a difficult sell, can't it? Like, you know, because people want, you know, we want it to get better now.

Max Lowery 36:37

Yeah, and it's it's something I am having to navigate um frequently because there is a when I explain the way that we we help our clients and I talk about these kinds of subjects, it does strike fear uh in some of the potential clients. And I really want to do this, but I'm afraid of feeling those feelings. I'm afraid of going there. It sounds really hard. And I think what I kind of put to them as well, actually, in this call with me, you've been in tears, you've been very depressed about the situation and and how you feel stuck. That sounds pretty hard. You know, that sounds pretty uncomfortable. That sounds quite scary, the thought of continuing to do that. So life is hard. Life is scary. Which one do you want? Do you want to stay stuck or do you want to lean into a little bit of short-term discomfort for potential long-term benefit? And ultimately the ones that are ready to do that short-term discomfort for long-term benefit are the ones that end up on this podcast uh singing the praises, having uh like having changed their lives.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Um there's an aspect I want to just, if I may, just to come in here because before it it slips my mind. Um, so um I want to add that um compassion is really key to the mindful approach. So um it is difficult, but it does require effort, it does require repetition, but there will often be setbacks along the way. Um, and as you say, that is life. It's kind of the way habits work and you know, behavior change is not easy. Um, so a a really important uh component and ingredient of um of the mindful approach is gentleness, is kindness, of actually allowing ourselves to go gently, um, recognizing that that sometimes you know it will slip back and it will seem like we're not making progress. And to know that that is part of the work, that it's an it's it's if not inevitable, then it's very likely to happen, and that these are all kind of learning opportunities. And I know that's probably sounds very trite, it's like, oh well, your setback's a learning opportunity, but it is. Um, if we can meet it compassionately and recognize that, hey, we're all human. So um we all have these tendencies and these habit patterns. So it's totally understandable that we're gonna want the quick fix or that we are, you know, it will likely have thoughts of self-blaming when it doesn't go the way that we want it to, and that that's all part of it to bring friendliness to it. So um it's it's so important to not see this as another kind of goal-directed activity that we've got to push, push, push, and be harsh with ourselves to um friendliness and going gently and recognizing the reality of the difficulty, but also um how we can cultivate this friendliness. Uh, and it is there, it is possible. Uh, it just is not necessarily immediate, and it's not like a one-shot deal or a straight line. If we can do that, then we're bringing that friendly, compassionate approach, which can make it so much more pleasant as a process.

From Reactivity To Mindful Space

Max Lowery 40:08

Yeah, and I would say we very much lean into that. Um, we we kind of call it the two C's compassion and curiosity. So our clients come to us having been chewed up and spat out by dark culture. They are stuck in a constant cycle of blame and judgment and losing weight and putting it back on. And when they come to us, they are very much still in that. And every mistake, every time this the the scale doesn't move, they are more blame, more guilt. This isn't working, I'm gonna quit. What's wrong with me? Uh I've got all this help and I'm still failing. And it's it's a real um real, it's really hard sometimes for us to to teach them this. And it is a skill ultimately of of being more compassionate and curious about themselves instead of going straight into this blame uh and this judgment. And I've got a a question for you because I know some people listening to this are like, yeah, that sounds great. Like, but and this comes from a recent conversation with a friend, I'm not gonna say who it is. Um, but what is that, what does being compassionate to yourself mean? How do you actually do that?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah, well it's a good a good question. Um, because if compassion stays at the level of an idea, it's not compassion, it's just a word. You know, so um um you know, kind of like as a word, uh compassion's pretty ineffective. So it needs to be something that is embodied. Uh it needs to be an actual approach based on our direct experience rather than a concept. Like we've all we've all done the concept. Be kind to yourself. And indeed, be kind to others, you know, kind of like moral and it becomes just a sort of morality thing, doesn't it? It's like, you know, you should because it's not a long step from be kind to others, you should be kind to others, and you should be kind to yourself, and therefore, if you're not, that's bad. You're failing. Yeah, you're doing it wrong. And how on a minute, I'm doing it wrong because I'm not being kind to myself. How on earth could that be kind if we're if we're criticizing ourselves for doing it wrong? That's the definition of unkindness. So it it can it can very easily get up into a loop where compassion is an idea that is a sort of you know, a goal to strive for, and then we struggle for it and you know seemingly fail, and then blame comes in. So um it is a really good question. How do we actually embody it? And my only answer to that is practice, um, an experiential practice. So um let's say we're experiencing well, I'm gonna try and keep it right in the moment. Uh my um left knee right now is uh aching a bit. Uh so I'm just noticing there's a kind of like a throb in my left knee. Uh and it's mildly unpleasant. It's not a big deal, but it's mildly unpleasant. Um, and now I'm paying attention to it. Uh so here it is. Uh, and by the way, the thought is now arising in my mind. Well, you shouldn't flip and sit cross-legged all the time. You know, it's like, you know, oh you know, just because you do a lot of meditation, like, why not get yourself a chair, you know, you know, go and it's like also all these kind of blaming thoughts are already coming in about how I've created this myself, that I've got a kind of a weakness in my left knee uh or an ache in my left knee that's like my own doing. So look at you know, it's already happening, the sort of blame game. Oh, and now people are gonna think, oh God, he sits cross-legged, a typical meditation instructor, God, and I'm gonna work with cliche. Cliche, exactly, there we go. Um uh, you know, and so on and so on. In all of that blaming, I've lost touch with the actual experience of my left knee right now in this moment. I've got caught up, and actually I'm starting to feel a bit tense, you know, in my in my um, in my chest here, because you know, here I am on a podcast and I've said all this stuff, and you know, kind of it's like, oh God, you shouldn't say that. Uh yeah, it's a second secondary stress, yeah. So I'm feeling now stressed here. So, what about if in if if now that I've noticed it, if I can just let go of identifying with those thoughts, and I'm also gonna let go of identifying with the tension here, and I'm just gonna invite myself to go back to the left knee and notice what's here. So I'm now noticing, yeah, there's still kind of the throbbing there, mild discomfort. And I'm just gonna see if I can just stay with it and just kind of like um let it be felt. And so I'm I'm tuning into it, and it's a sensation, actually, it's just increased, it's just a little bit more intense now. Um and oh now it's just decreased a little bit, so it's kind of like ebbing and flowing a bit, and I'm here with it. And if I just say to my experience, it's okay just to feel this. So it's okay. Um, oh, it's almost actually just disappeared now, it's not there in this particular moment. Um it's back again a little bit now. So I'm just kind of holding with it and being with it and watching it change. And as I'm as I'm with it and noticing it and feeling it, um, it's actually not possible at the same time for my mind to be caught up with all those judging thoughts. In fact, they weren't really there, although my mentioning them has started to bring them back. Um, I'm just gonna just gonna notice those and bring my attention back to the knee and see if I could just hold this experience of uh mild difficulty um with a quality of it being all right. It's just just an aching, it's just a feeling I'm with it, um, I'm okay with it, I'm not getting caught up in blame about it, I'm not trying to stop it, I'm not trying to fix it. Um I can, of course, choose to move if I need to, but at the moment it's okay, it's not a big deal. Um I'm now relating with it in what I would describe as a more compassionate way. Not as an idea, not as a thought. I should be compassionate, um, but just as an experience of holding it as it is here and now, pausing with it, meeting it. And I'm and I'm and I'm feeling a bit softer. The tension here is gone. I'm feeling a bit more, ha, it's all right. Don't have to make a problem out of this. That doesn't mean I'm not going to notice it. And actually, over the last six months, um, I am still choosing to sit the way I'm sitting, but I've in the last six months I've started to put a cushion underneath it, which is uh just given a bit of extra support and it's and it's started to ease. So it's not like I'm not taking action. Um and I'm holding the experience in a way that isn't getting caught up with all of those self-judging thoughts that came up when I shared it. That's what I mean by actually exercising compassion. It's just an example I know, and it may seem like a silly mild example. Um but it's an actual practice and it's an approach of attending. Like so, in the word attention, and if you look in the middle of it, there's tend. Attention. Yeah, so attend means to hold, and it implies holding compassionately. So we can give attention in a very harsh, critical way, or we can give attention with the quality of tending in it, of actually holding something gently. And it's that approach, if we practice it over and over again, that I would suggest brings the experience of compassion and develops the skill of compassion rather than this idea, which could be just a judgment and another kind of stick to beat ourselves when we don't achieve it.

Practising Compassion And Curiosity

Max Lowery 48:32

That's really interesting. And I think for anyone listening, this is something, and you use the word practice right at the start, you do need to practice. Um, this isn't going to come straight away. Um, but what it sounds like you're saying is um rather than so you have this negative feeling or this negative sensation uh within yourself. Um, rather than avoiding it immediately and going straight into um what's wrong with me? I shouldn't have this feeling. What does this mean? Oh, I told you you can't do this. It's actually meeting and attending the feeling and noticing it, sitting with it. How do I where does that feel within my body? Um, you know, no why is it there, no uh it shouldn't be there, just noticing it and paying attention to it. And just the act of that actually reforms the can maybe take you out of that kind of fight or flight response and uh into the secondary thoughts, which then can create more stress and more anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Yeah, indeed. So it's sort of um by approaching the experience, uh, you know, approaches the you know, um the opposite of fight-flight. It's actually moved towards be like you use with curiosity, be curious, uh, you know, tune in, be friendly. These are the opposite of of run and fight, uh, because it's connecting. Um and it's not that um though those thoughts won't be there. Um so you know, to be realistic about it, it's not that there are thoughts, the thoughts won't arise, they will. And often people have, especially with meditation practice, you know, they have the kind of hope or expectation um that um, you know, difficult thoughts or feelings will no longer arise. Um, and unfortunately that's unrealistic. They do, um, but that's not failure, that's just a normal human experience. The automatic thoughts occur. And we can choose how we relate to them. So we can choose to come back from them, to attend perhaps to the body, to the breath, to what's actually happening in the senses. So whilst they're still there, that that needn't be a problem because we're not buying into them, not giving them a kind of meaning or power that they don't have to have. They just become mental events that occur that we don't actually even need to get rid of because they're not problematic.

Max Lowery 51:03

Yeah, and I think that's a really important distinction because that's I would say one of the biggest misconceptions uh that I hear from people when they hear about this or they start this process and they're like, oh, I still have these thoughts. What like what's wrong with me? I'm still having these thoughts. You said I wouldn't have these thoughts. I'm like, that's not what I said at all. Um actually, you literally cannot control these thoughts. They pop in, they're automatic, they're called automatic thoughts for a reason, right? They come out of your subconscious, or who knows where they come out of. You're never gonna be able to consciously stop that, I don't think. The only thing you can do is, as you say, change your relationship with those thoughts. And I think instead of what most people do is they have the automatic thought, and that triggers them into another automatic reaction, which is what's wrong with me? I shouldn't have this thought. I need to eat some food, I need to have a drink, I need to suppress this at all costs. By noticing, attending compassion, curiosity in that moment, you're actually creating space between the automatic thought and the usual reaction that you have. And when you have that space, I feel like there's more opportunity to perhaps make a better decision or even just give you that, it gives you a decision. Um, whereas before there is no decision, you're stuck in automatic thought into automatic reaction. And that automatic reaction is most, well, in a lot of cases, going to be negative.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Right. So by by dwelling in the space, you create the possibility of making a conscious choice rather than being caught uh in automatic reactivity. Yeah, indeed.

Max Lowery 52:40

So reaching towards the end of this conversation, Ed, um I would I think I'm I'm still thinking that a lot of people listening to this might be like, I don't know where to begin with this. Like, how how do I even get my head around what this is talking about? And and it is, it it is a difficult thing to understand. And it you do have to, as you say, embody it in practice in order for you to realize. Because right now this is just conceptual for most of you listening to this. But I guess is there any um, and I realize this might be a difficult question, but is there any more kind of practical advice you could give to someone uh in the moment where they feel the feeling, which usually leads them towards the food? Um what kind of practice could they do? What kind of thoughts or things could they say inside their own head in that moment to create space, just as a first step?

A Practical Pause You Can Use

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Well, you don't have to create the space because the space is already there. So it's more of a tapping into the space. And you also used an interesting phrase. You said like people might well be thinking, I can't get my head around this. And they'd be absolutely right. You cannot get your head around this. So actually, what's invited is a letting go of trying to get your head around it and seeing if we can actually tune in to the bodily experience. Um so um rather than trying to understand it or analyse it or achieve it, as a starting point, how about when you are in one of those moments where you're about to do the thing that you always do but as in the habit or that you always have done, or that you've got into the habit of doing because you probably haven't done it always. Um when you are in that moment, first of all, congratulate yourself because the very fact that you have noticed that you're about to do that thing is mindfulness. So celebrate you've just noticed it. Great, you're mindful. Because if you're on autopilot, you'll just do it anyway and you won't have that pause. So it's an invitation to recognize that you have already paused. And uh how about something like just dropping your attention into your feet, right? Whether you're standing or you're sitting, just to just to tune in for a few moments to the experience of your feet maybe on the ground. If you're sitting, it'll be the feet in the floor, you know, kind of standing, feet in the floor. Um, just to notice the experience of the contacts of your soles of your feet with the floor. Notice that this isn't thinking about your feet. So I'm not inviting you to think about your feet, but to actually the experience of the feet right now. So you could do this right now as you're listening. So we could do this all together, just right now, noticing the experience of um the feet. Uh, I'm noticing the sole of my uh left foot is a little bit cool and a little bit of numbness uh and a little bit of tingling around. So I'm just noticing that. And as I'm paying attention to that, um, I I'm not doing anything else apart from what I'm speaking because I'm describing it. Um, but uh in that moment I'm not reaching for um a cake, a beer, the remote control. I'm just paying attention to the sensations in the feet. And so if you've done that with me for the last 20 seconds, that's a 20-second pause and space that you've just created. Um, and I would say that's good enough for now. So just as a beginning, and yeah, maybe you'll go on and do the thing that you, you know, you, you know, you maybe you'll go and have the you know the cake uh in a minute. But you've proved to yourself that you can take a pause. If you can do that once, what might it be like if you could actually cultivate that skill over time through repetition and practice, you know, through mindfulness training, through joining your program, you know, whatever way you choose, if you can find a way to cultivate that space and be in it, then you can expand that pause. The more you expand the pause, the more you're gonna have choices about what you what you choose to do.

Max Lowery 57:24

Yeah, I think that's a great first step. Um because really what you will often find, uh, I think in my experience is the emotion that you feel is a bit like a wave. So there, you know, it kind of builds, and there's a uh the the peak of the wave, and usually people are turning to the food before the peak. But actually, if you create this space, um the wave peaks, but then actually it crashes, and then you realize that oh, actually I don't even feel what I was feeling anymore. I don't need the food anymore. And we're talking about habit, we call them habit loops. So what happens is uh with food is uh you feel a feeling, you eat the food, you feel better. Then your brain kind of reinforces next time you feel the feeling, gonna it's gonna crave the food to make yourself feel better, and that habit loops get reinforced. What we're doing here, and just in this initial practice, is forming a new habit loop. And so initially those two habit loops are gonna be competing against each other. Uh and uh, but then with more practice over time, slowly but surely the old habit loop begins to die. And it might come out in certain extreme situations, um, still like highly stressful uh grief and quick, you know, getting uh fired from your job. But for the most of it, the newer habit loop uh wins the more you practice until it just becomes part of who you are. And that's kind of what I see with our with our clients, especially the longer-term clients.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Yeah. Well, it kind of reminds me of the old story of the of the two wolves, kind of like uh in the in the kind of battle against each other. And you know, supposedly uh, you know, somebody asks which wolf is gonna win, and uh, you know, uh the the the wise person says, the one I feed. You know, so if you feed the habit which is helpful, then over time it will become stronger than the other habit, and it can um you know it can become who you are, so you're not stuck in that old identity.

Max Lowery 59:33

100%. I think it's a native Indian um not a Native American proverb proverb, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Um yeah, it could well be, yeah.

Max Lowery 59:41

Yeah, yeah. So thank you very much, Ed. That was a really insightful conversation. It's always a love chatting with you. Um pleasure. Hopefully, this has been useful uh for everyone listening. Um, I mean, just to kind of give some context, this might, you know, this is I have a weight loss program. This is a weight loss podcast. It's called Never Diet Again. Um, I'm probably wondering like why are we talking about these things? But ultimately, addressing these issues that we've spoken about today is one of the key factors in changing your behavior in the long run and stopping the emotional eating and getting out of the guilt, the blame, the frustration, the stress, which is actually driving all the negative behaviors which are leading to the weight gain. So not only does this lead to potential um going down this this route, potential uh long term weight loss, but every aspect of your life can improve at the same time. And that's ultimately why I'm so passionate about what I do. Like, yes, on the face of it, it's a weight loss program, but actually, when you start going down these avenues, the weight loss is just a nice byproduct of addressing these root causes. And Ed, you have I'm a better coach because I've worked with you. Um the program has improved and our clients are getting better results because of you, Ed.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Um thank you very much.

Max Lowery 1:01:08

If anyone wants to get in touch with you and work with you directly, um, what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Um probably the best way is just to um check in on my website, which is uh edhaliwell.com. So nice and simple, and there's a there's a contact uh um pay uh page on there. So you can just drop me a um a message on that and that will come straight through to me and we can go from there.

Max Lowery 1:01:32

Yeah, and I'll leave that link in the uh show notes below. But I warn you Ed is very busy. Um so it's gonna be first come, first served, isn't it, Ed?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

Well, it's uh it's new year at the moment, and uh that does tend to be a time where the driven doing mode says, let's make this happen. So that's a it's a you know it's helpful in a way, but um uh yeah, it's about sustaining it. So um, you know, hopefully we're offering ways where people can um build on that initial momentum, which is which is great, and make it something that's actually sustainable in the long term.

Max Lowery 1:02:05

Oh, thanks, Lyad. Good to speak to you.