#106 From Yo-Yo dieting for 30 years… To losing 22kg without dieting

She knew how to lose weight.
She just could not keep it off.

In this episode, I sit down with Joanne, a 55-year-old high achiever who spent decades trapped in the same exhausting cycle so many women know too well: lose weight, gain it back, promise to start again Monday, then blame herself when nothing changed.

She thought the problem was discipline.
 She thought she just needed to try harder.
 She thought she was the problem.

But that was never the truth.

What changed everything was not another diet, stricter rules, or more willpower. It was finally understanding what was actually driving her behavior with food in the first place.

Since joining Live360, Joanne has lost over 20 kilos and, for the first time in her life, kept it off. But more importantly, she feels proud of herself. She feels free. She trusts herself again.

In this conversation, we talk about:

•  the hidden emotional patterns that kept her stuck for years 
•  why knowing what to eat was never the real issue 
•  how years of yo-yo dieting damaged her confidence 
•  what finally helped her break the cycle 
•  and why this has become about so much more than weight loss 

If you have ever thought, “Why can I succeed in every area of life except this?” this episode will hit hard.

Watch my The Cravings & Fat-Burning Masterclass:  https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/register-podcast

Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/max.lowery/

Book a Food Freedom Breakthrough Call: https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/call-ig

Transcript

Breaking The Dieting Story

Max Lowery 0:00

Most of the women I work with already know how to lose weight. They've done the dais, they've seen results, but then it all comes back again and again and again. So the story they start to believe is very simple. There must be something wrong with me. Lazy, undisciplined, inconsistent. But that story is wrong. And today's episode breaks that wide open because Joanne is 55, highly capable, successful in her career, and like so many women, she spent decades stuck in the cycle. Dieting, losing weight, gaining it back, starting again every Monday. She would tell herself she just needed to try harder, but nothing changed until she stopped focusing on food and instead understanding what actually was driving the behavior. Since then, she's lost over 20 kilos and for the first time in her life, kept that weight off. Now she finally feels proud of herself. Because this is not another weight loss story. This is what happens when the real problem gets solved. So if you're listening to this thinking this sounds exactly like me, then this episode is for you. Let's get into it. How do you create a life that allows you to lose weight, eat the foods that you love, and sustain the results? Over the last 10 years, I've helped thousands of people do exactly that. I'm Max Lowry. I'm an author, personal trainer, and weight loss coach. In this podcast, I'm going to share my top tips and tricks from within my one-on-one coaching program. It's my goal to give you the tools and the understanding so that you never diet again. Hello, welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today I'm joined by Joanne, who is one of my amazing clients. Joanne, could you give a quick introduction to who you are, where you live, what do you do?

Speaker 1:41

Yeah, I'm well, I'm Joanne. I'm 55 years old. I live most of the time in Switzerland. Uh I work uh in a bank in Switzerland. Um when I'm not here, I am at home, close to my family in beautiful north of Ireland. And uh yeah, that's me really.

Max Lowery 2:02

And it would be great to, if you could remember um before you started the programme, right? So that's actually quite a while ago now. What was the situation like for you just as you started?

Speaker 2:16

I was going through quite a bit emotionally. Um, and even though I didn't see it focused on my own sort of personal well-being, I realized once I started to sort of really reflect on myself that um I wasn't very happy with myself and that um it wasn't necessarily about other people or other things or outside factors. I I realized that I really needed to start working on myself. I'd done a little bit of exploration um uh on along those lines before I spoke with you, Max. Um, but there was one fundamental topic that kept popping up, and that was my sort of health and well-being and weight, and it was all rooted uh uh in that in terms of uh self-improvement. And um yeah, I just knew I needed to change and I needed to sort of break habits and do something for myself, and I came across you through the algorithms, and um yeah, change sort of started from then, and here I am.

Comfort Eating And The Monday Reset

Max Lowery 3:17

We're gonna get into all of that today. What was your relationship with food like? What was your confidence like? Like how are you feeling in that moment?

Speaker 3:23

I think my relationship with food has always been, um, certainly up and down through the years, um, has been about making myself feel better, about finding comfort, reward, commiseration, and it was very much at the center of um anything that I wanted to do in terms of celebrating. I I I thought that a lot of happiness was rooted in food. You know, it may I I thought that food made me happy. So it was it was pretty disruptive because I didn't like the consequences of of of eating too much, and and that that reward cycle for me with food and also commiseration cycle for me with food was um having um a knock-on effect on both how I felt about myself and potentially um on my health, and I realized that and I really wanted to change and I wanted to break those uh cycles and habits. So yeah, I needed to do something.

Max Lowery 4:23

What other things had you tried to do before working with us?

Speaker 4:27

Well, I mean, I've I've yo-yo dieted my entire adult life, to be honest. So, you know, the the classic starting every Monday uh with a new diet. I'd um everything from very low calorie diets to Crush diets, liquid diets. And having very, you know, various um moments of what I considered success. I used to joke that I don't need to be taught how to lose weight, I absolutely know how to lose weight. I was very much rooted in I'm dieting or I'm not dieting. So I would lose the weight, and then I would stop dieting. There was no recognition that something needed to change uh beyond being on a diet or not being on a diet. And of course, it's that it's the classic yo-yo situation where you lose weight, put it back on, lose weight, put it back on. So that's where I've been for much of my adult life.

Max Lowery 5:22

What impact did those different diets and going from losing weight to put it back on repeatedly, what impact did that have on your on your on your life, would you say?

Shame, Willpower Myths, And Doubt

Speaker 5:30

I used to sort of think I've I can achieve most things that I that I set out to do in life, including losing weight, but why could I not conquer keeping it off? And um it had quite a detrimental impact on how I felt about myself. So I used to, you know, consider myself potentially lazy or uh incompetent, a failure. All of the things that all of the negative thing things that come up around not being able to maintain what what I considered a healthy weight and what society considers to be how we should look. And it was always um it was just it was a negative cycle of um of self-criticism.

Max Lowery 6:19

Yeah, and this is something I hear all the time is successful, high-achieving women like yourself who are you know achieving great things, got great careers, very, very switched on, can't seem to do this with food, and they start to label themselves with the labels you just used, lazy, I can't do this, what's wrong with me, etc. And I think that's because they believe this is a willpower and motivation issue.

Speaker 6:43

And it's also how you believe that the outside world looks at you when you walk into a room full of strangers for the first time, it crosses your mind what do they think of you based on how you look? Um and I I've even been in in job interviews where I've it's crossed my mind because I'm overweight, do you consider me to be a bad bet? Uh, because I can't conquer that.

Max Lowery 7:13

Yeah, and you know, these are all things that have uh a big impact on your happiness, your confidence, you know, your your mental health ultimately. If you're walking around thinking that and second guessing what people are thinking uh as a consequence of struggling with your weight, and you know, and really this is not a willpower motivation issue. This is the biggest misconception about weight loss, as they people think if you have weight to lose, it's because you're lazy and lack discipline, and that's just not the case at all. Um, it's much more deep-rooted than that. We'll we'll kind of get into that a bit later. So, was there any skepticism you had before joining Live360 and working with us?

Speaker 7:52

I guess to a degree, but I have to say, I'm I'm generally fairly positive, despite what I've just said about the negativity. I'm generally fairly positive. So I thought, oh, this is another, this this is another chance for me to be successful. So um, but always in the back of my mind, the the old um niggling thoughts about well, are you just are you wasting your time? Um, you know what to do, just get on with it. Why are you looking for another solution when you don't need the solutions? You just need to action what you know. Um, so yes, there was skepticism. I certainly was skeptical that I could be taught anything about losing weight or about how my life could be different.

Max Lowery 8:34

Is that because you felt like you'd done lots of different things? What more could you possibly learn?

Speaker 8:40

Yeah, because I I don't think I saw the yo-yo dieting as well, I uh yes, I saw it as as failing, but because you get a bit of because because there had been success in terms of weight loss, and of course with that at the time came, you know, the the the the uplift that you get with weight loss, I felt I could do it. I just it never clicked that I needed to do more um or different things. And I I I'm not really sure what I um what I necessarily expected from Lib360. Um and yes, there was some skepticism, but there was also positivity and um yeah.

Max Lowery 9:21

Yeah, I mean, you know, you don't need to um try and uh you know be kind to me uh and not say there were that there was uh there wasn't any skepticism because that's that's the biggest thing that I struggle with now. It's harder for me as a as a coach and and as you know who's built this program to to put the message out there and get through the level of skepticism and lack of trust that there is now because there's so many other coaches out there um saying you know similar-ish things. Uh, and what most people find when they when they work with these coaches, it's either just a load of recorded videos, um no one-on-one uh anything at all. And if it's one on one, it's literally just tracking calories, macros, and workouts, right? You you don't need a coach to do that. Um you can just do that for free using apps, yeah. Um, so yeah.

Speaker 10:08

I think maybe one of the things that really sort of turned me on to Live 360 was the experience of one of your previous um uh people. Um I remember watching a video with you and and her, and I I I really sort of resonated with with her and um for everything from how she looked to the way she um the way she lived and how she described what she did. So that that was something that very much um helped me overcome any skepticism that that skepticism that I might have had. Um, you know, these real real life experiences of people achieving.

Max Lowery 10:45

Yeah, and that's ultimately why we're having this conversation today, Joanne. Yeah, well, you know, because uh you know it doesn't matter what I say, it it matters what the results are and the experience of of of the of the clients ultimately. And this is why I don't really use before and after photos that much, because any coach can get before or after the photos, right? Um you just have to do some kind of restriction and deprivation, you know, go keto, like well, yeah, we'll smash workouts, we'll we'll get some uh weight loss. Um, but I think these conversations that we you know we have on this podcast with with our clients are much more profound, much more real, and you can't um you can't get any of the deeper work that has been done from a before and after photo, right? Um so yeah, it's uh it's very useful to have you on.

Speaker 11:33

Yeah, I I I completely agree because you know I've I've I've been and I I don't think I've ever done the before and after photos in the past, but I've definitely you know have the memory of the before and after um from various diets in the past, and this is um a much a much more different process and a deeper sort of process. It's not just about how I look before and after. So the photos wouldn't do it justice.

The Real Work Beneath Food

Max Lowery 12:03

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, what's great now is we're having because the podcast didn't exist when you joined Joanne, but what's happening now is we've had loads of women who've been uh you know have listened to the podcast, are like, oh my god, this is exactly what I need, and then they end up as our success stories on the podcast, which I absolutely love, uh how that's working at the moment. Um, so we started working together, I think it was December 2023, or around that time. Um yeah, yeah, yeah. What what when you started, what would you say, if you can take you back to that moment, what surprised you the most about this process?

Speaker 12:44

How much I had to learn, how I needed to change the way I think about many things about how I approach food, how I how I talk to myself, that I actually like exercise. I I um I used to be a little bit disparaging, if you like, of people who love to exercise and people who go hiking and that sort of thing. But I realized there's so many things that I was just being resistant to because I was, I suppose, in many ways, envious of those other people that did those types of things. And I just learned that that you can change the way you think about things and learn to enjoy, you know, you can discover what you enjoy and get and and and and create and develop habits um to make small changes, slow changes sometimes, and lots of bumps along the way, but being open to change was really what I uh what what I was um what was the biggest success for me, I think.

Max Lowery 13:47

So you went from kind of thinking what more could I possibly learn to coming in and thinking, oh wow, I actually didn't realize these were the problems or these are the things I needed to work on.

Speaker 14:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also emotionally, you know, I never really associated um how I feel, or I didn't really think that stress or uh just the the bumps along along the way in life, how that can impact how you feel about food, how you feel around food, how you feel about exercise and and and and how you feel about yourself. Um and all of those things make such a difference to ultimately what you do with your body and what you put in your body and how you want your body to respond and and to be.

22kg Down With No Crash Diet

Max Lowery 14:34

Yeah, correct. So I think most women we work with know exactly what they should be eating. Like they know what they should be eating, what they should be doing exercise-wise, right? And I think that's probably how you came in. Like you've done all these different things, you roughly know, but what they don't know is why they find it so difficult, why they overeat, why they can't be consistent, why they can go through periods of losing weight but not keeping it off. And that's ultimately what we are addressing. Uh, and I think this is really important. It's good to hear you say that uh what surprised you was how much you need to learn because so many women I know listening to this are thinking, what more can I possibly learn from a coach? Like I've done all the things. But the more you tell yourself you've done everything, nothing works, the more that just becomes self-fulfilling ultimately. It's a it's a it's a limiting belief because firstly, it's not physically and practically possible to try everything because there aren't enough, there's not enough time in a lifetime. Second thing is yourself included, Joanne, most of the clients we work with have addressed the surface level things or the calories, the macros, the workouts, but they've never addressed the root causes. And that's ultimately um what we do. So everyone always wants to know what the results are, the numbers. Joanne, do you remember how much weight you've lost so far?

Speaker 15:59

Yes, um, I've lost 22 kilos and around 14 inches from my waist and my hips, which is you know incredible progress.

Max Lowery 16:09

Uh, I don't know anyone here listening when the last time you picked up a 20 kilo weight, you know, it's it's heavy.

Speaker 17:10

I travel a lot with work and I travel a lot because I go home from work a lot. As I don't work in the same country that I call home, and I often take an eight or ten kilo cabin bag with me, and that's it, I'm always on the fly. And to lift that up, I every time I lift it, I think, oh my goodness. I used to carry this twice as much as this, or it was spread out and all over me, but it blows my mind to be honest. It's incredible.

Max Lowery 17:40

When was the last time you were around this weight?

Speaker 17:42

10 or 12 years ago, but probably on a on a temporary basis as well. You know, it wasn't anything that was uh that was sustained.

Max Lowery 17:51

And we can safely say that it's been sustained because you know we've been working together for two and a half years now.

Speaker 17:57

Yeah.

Max Lowery 17:58

Um so you know it's been gradual, but the most important thing, you sustain it. I mean, when was the last time you've ever sustained any weight loss?

Travel, Hotels, And Sustainable Choices

Speaker 18:08

Never. Never have I ever sustained weight loss. Um and what I've really enjoyed, and I've I've I've learned to appreciate this, is that I it's I mean, it sounds like a lot of weight, but it's been relatively slow, slow to to come off, although I I really enjoy that it that it hasn't been a crash bang wallop crash you know diet that works really quickly and you get those sort of like highs of of losing weight. I've really enjoyed the process and the and and I I've appreciated losing weight in a controlled manner without starving myself, enjoying food, learning what I need rather than uh what I I think I deserve and and and I need to reward myself. It's it's very different. I've actually I've actually enjoyed the pace uh when in the past I've been so impatient.

Max Lowery 19:11

So key mindset shifts that need to happen there. And like speaking of enjoyment as well, so in those two and a half years, how many holidays do you think you've been enjoying?

A Quick Favour For The Podcast

Pride, Self-Forgiveness, And Small Steps

Speaker 19:18

Oh my goodness. Um I am footloose and fancy-free, and I have lots of friends, and I visit my friends um in different places in the world, and I I go on holiday with my mum, and I travel a lot with work. So one of the big issues for me was routine. You know, I was okay while when I was sort of in one place for two or three weeks. I could plan a little um what I eat and and and how I uh how how I live. Uh, but I I find myself in hotel rooms like I am this evening a lot. And I've always used that in the past as an excuse to overindulge. So that would mean drinking on a Tuesday evening and having a two or three course meal on a Tuesday evening, or Wednesday evening as I am here. And now it's it's more about thinking, being mindful. I mean, I never thought I'd use that word about myself in my life, but being mindful, pushing away when I feel full, not saying no to things, but just being more measured and and and understanding and appreciating. This is not a birthday celebration, it's a Tuesday night in in a work hotel. I don't need to eat the way I think I deserve I used to think I deserved to eat because I wasn't at home. So yeah, it's so many things. Yeah.

Max Lowery 20:46

Yeah, powerful mindset shifts, but you know, it just proves as well that you don't have to have these perfect conditions and be really restricted and you know not go on holiday and not enjoy the birthdays. Um, because yeah, I mean, you you've been on many, many trips at Joe Duran. I know and still manage to lose 24 kilos and keep it off, which is excellent. Yeah. Really quick one for me, guys. I don't run ads on this podcast, and I do aim to give you as many high-value tips and tricks as I can for free. All I ask in return is that you help me spread the word. That way I can help as many people as I can to never diet again. The way to do that is to rate, review, and share this podcast. A review will only take 30 seconds, but it would mean the world to me, but more importantly, it could help change the life of someone else. What would you say, you know, aside from weight loss, how else has this impacted your life?

Speaker 21:40

Um well, I've discovered a lot of things about myself over over the past couple of years. It's been uh I I guess there's been lots of revelations. There's been I think I'm actually quite proud of myself, which is a very difficult and complicated thing for me to say. And I also now consider myself to be more in control of one of something that I found very difficult to control in the past. And that makes me um feel quite proud of myself that you know that I can do this. I still have have lots of doubt, I still worry that I'll uh I'll blow it all, but I just keep adopting it's little changes, and I'll give you an example. I was always about starting on Monday or starting in the new year or after the holiday, or you know, there was always a a reason not to be doing it today. And now I don't think about starting anything. I just think about every day making little small decisions that have a a long term impact. And if I want to have the cake, I'll have the cake, but I'll think three times about it before I do that. Or I'll have a smaller piece. Or I'll uh decide uh on an alternative, I think, before I um make that food move. And I also do things like um, you know, if I don't feel like going on that walk, or I don't feel like um going to the gym, I'll I'll I'll just decide, okay, just walk one tram stop. And then sometimes that becomes two or three, sometimes that becomes the whole way home. And I forgive myself as well when I don't do what I intended to do that day. I do, I forgive myself.

Max Lowery 23:33

That's you know, you said two very profound things there, Joanne, and that's you know, you're basically summarizing why I do what I do, which is I'm proud of myself and I forgive myself. I mean, what would you have said to me on our first conversation if I told you, you know, in not too long, you'd be said you would feel proud of yourself and you would forgive yourself. Would you have believed me?

Speaker 23:58

I think again, the uh optimist in me would have hoped that I that I would, but I would I would have had a lot of doubt there. You and no. I I think I'd almost resigned myself to the fact that and I and I've said this as well in the past, but this is just me. You know, everybody's just gonna have to accept me as I am. I'm gonna have to accept me. It's just me. I am a fat person. It's not me, it doesn't yeah.

Max Lowery 24:28

So, you know, Jaran, just to hear those words is very rewarding for me as as a coach and you as your coach to hear you say that you're proud of yourself is incredible and very profound. And you talked about this kind of starting a Monday thing and I'll start next week. And the reason people do that is because number one, um they know deep down they're not actually going to do it because so many times in the past they've tried and it hasn't worked. So they think, well, I'm gonna tell myself I'm gonna do it, but I know deep down I'm not gonna do it because what's the point? It's not gonna work anyway. And secondly, it's because the things they think they should be doing are completely unsustainable and unenjoyable. So it needs to be like this big, oh, I need to work myself up to do this because I need to go back to tracking every gram of food, cutting out carbohydrates, no alcohol, no dessert, 20,000 steps per day. And in reality, what change looks like, what consistency looks like is exactly what you described. It's small changes, it's just returning back to normal habits that make you feel uh feel good uh and work for you and fit into your busy hectic life. So that's excellent to hear. And not only that, Joanne, I'm pretty sure you've climbed a few mountains since I climbed the Kanagu in uh in the Pyrenees with you.

Speaker 25:51

And as you know, Max, I had a quite an emotional uh couple of years. I lost an incredibly close friend, and we knew that we were losing her. Um, and then when it happened, I I was sort of training for and climbed the Kanagoo two or three months after that, and she was with me, and it was very much a um I wanted to climb that mountain for her as well as for me, and it's incredibly sad to say that I also learned from her that we it's a privilege to be able to climb that mountain, and I want to be able to climb those mountains for the next 30 or 40 years.

Max Lowery 26:34

Yeah, yeah, and I think again, people listening to this, you don't have to climb a mountain to lose 24 kilos, right? That's not part of the the what it takes. But what I see time and time again is once you start down this route, being feeling proud of yourself, forgiving yourself, um, making small changes, losing weight gradually over time, then things like climbing mountain sounds quite appealing to you because you have all this energy, your fitter, and you know, different perspectives through everything that you've been through uh with uh Mary. So it was great to you know share that experience with you um in that moment.

Speaker 27:11

Because it's very interesting. I when I I first spoke with you on the first or second week of December, and a couple of days later, this it all started with Mary. So you've but you were with me that the entire way through that whole situation. On the we've we found out on the Monday or the Tuesday after I spoke with you on the weekend. So yeah, it's incredible.

Max Lowery 27:34

I didn't realise that. What else about the program have you really enjoyed and maybe uh didn't expect to enjoy?

Advice For Anyone Who Feels Stuck

Speaker 27:44

Well, the community. And it took me a long time to go through that first group call. Um, and now I've got some some great mates um in in the community that we've that I've met uh on the retreat. Um and we've got a little group. What's that group? And yeah, they're just amazing, amazing women who are really honest and open and raw and phenomenal, really high achieving women in every every aspect of their life, from professional business owners, highly qualified women, to being highly, highly successful at communicating and um being supportive. They're just they're just amazing. And um you've brought me into contact with these people that they've been uh as much a part of of this um for me as as anything. They're incredible. Community's fabulous.

Max Lowery 28:49

Yeah, and I think you know, people are often a bit have certain ideas of what communities look like because they've maybe they experienced like a generic weight loss face Facebook group where there's you know 20,000 people in there and everyone's kind of just sharing photos of perfectly looking uh food and workouts. Uh, but that's obviously not how our community works. And I think you know it's to be honest, I'm really proud of what we've achieved with uh the community. And I I would say that we, you know, we actually do ask for feedback forms quite a lot, and and most people say that one of the biggest values about the program is the community itself. Um, and so yeah, what Joanne was alluding to, we did uh a retreat in the Pyrenees last year for about 10 of the women, and we're doing another one uh in June this year uh as well, which will be uh a lot of fun.

Speaker 29:36

Looking forward to that. That's for sure.

Max Lowery 29:38

What would you say to anyone that is listening to this right now and is thinking, this sounds really good, but I don't think it's gonna work for me uh because I've tried all the different things and I'm just scared this won't work for me. What would you say to that person, Joanne?

Speaker 29:56

I would say absolutely you're right to be scared because um you will have you will be full of doubt and you will have um concerns that it's just another diet. But uh it's so much more. I mean, I'm 55 years old and I've learned so much about myself. I really wish I'd done it something like this sooner. I I I wish I'd discovered more about why sooner um and explored the things that you've sort of you've pushed the door open for me on on lots of things. And um, I mean I I I I can't even I don't think I could have possibly anticipated what was going to be open up opened up to me because I just didn't know. I didn't know and um I still don't know a lot but I know that um that I was doing it wrong and I was speaking to myself in the wrong way and I was um I was kidding myself if I thought that I was ever going to get to get to where I am without discovering the things that I have along the way. So yeah.

Max Lowery 31:03

You make a very good point there as well, Joanne. Like where do you think you would be now if you hadn't started this process? What would life?

Speaker 31:09

Well, you know, it's interesting because I was thinking of that the other day. I think I would have still been I probably would have been heavier than than when I started. But that's just the weight thing. I would have been wasting so many weekends, I would have been so disappointed with lost opportunities that I didn't I mean there's so many things that I've done that I didn't know that I I I even wanted to do. Uh like climbing the mountain. I I I would have been very, very unfulfilled. I don't want this to all this conversation to all be about weight because that's not the defining, you know, I and we rarely talk about weight as a number in in the community, in the group. Um but weight of of course is is is I suppose to a certain extent um uh a part of all of this, but it's it's been about so much more than just losing weight, it's been about gaining a love for walking, gaining a love for weekends that aren't as hungover as they used to be, that aren't uh aren't about going out in the evenings and having fun. It's about what I do during the day at the weekends now as well. You know, so many things I've learned to love and learned to um appreciate. I I listen I listen to to birds and and record them on that bird app that you told me about, and I'm fascinated by all of that now. So just yeah. Um lots and lots of things have changed in in how I I live and and it's yeah, it's super positive.

Max Lowery 32:45

And if there's one thing you want listeners of this podcast to remember, what would that be, Joanne?

Speaker 32:50

You don't have to put anything off until Monday. Just don't don't uh ever think of your future as a huge, big, insurmountable ball of crap. Just little things. Small little changes. Small, small, small little changes. Um and you will you'll you'll just become you'll really become proud of yourself by doing that.

Max Lowery 33:19

Yeah, and you make a very good point, because that's exactly what confidence and you know self-love how it happens, right? It's not just like looking in the mirror and shouting affirmations, it's from taking small steps, taking action, and proving to yourself that you are who you say you are. And that's exactly what you've done, Joanne. So thank you so much for being vulnerable and opening up in this conversation, Joanne. It's always uh difficult. You've done very well. And um, thanks for everyone that's listening, and we will see you on the next episode.

unknown 33:54

Thanks.