#108 Why Antidepressants and Ozempic Don’t Fix the Real Problem with Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring

What if the thing you’re using to feel better is actually keeping you stuck?

In this episode, I’m joined by psychiatrist Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring, who has worked inside Big Pharma and the FDA, and what he shares will seriously challenge the way you think about antidepressants, anxiety, GLP-1 weight loss injections, emotional eating, and mental health.

We talk about why so many people are being given drugs to numb symptoms without ever addressing the root cause, why food can become a form of self-medication, and why weight gain is often a symptom of something much deeper.

This is not an anti-medication conversation. It’s an honest one.

If you’re a woman over 40 who feels stuck with your weight, constantly turns to food for comfort, or feels like you’ve tried everything and nothing works, this episode will help you see the real issue more clearly.

Because the problem is rarely just food.
It’s stress.
It’s emotional regulation.
It’s nervous system overload.
It’s identity.

It’s the feelings you keep trying to avoid.

And until those root causes are addressed, the same patterns keep coming back.

This episode is a must-listen if you’ve ever wondered whether quick fixes are really solving the problem… or just delaying the moment you finally have to face it.

Watch my The Cravings & Fat-Burning Masterclass:  https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/register-podcast

Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/max.lowery/

Book a Food Freedom Breakthrough Call: https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/call-ig

Transcript

Root Causes Over Quick Fixes

Max Lowery 0:00

In today's episode, I'm joined by a psychiatrist who worked for Big Pharma and the FDA, and what he discovered will completely change the way you think about antidepressants, anxiety, GLP1 drugs, and mental health. If you've been told your weight problems just about eating less, moving more, or taking the latest injection, this episode will show you why that is far too simplistic. We talk about what is really driving emotional eating, why quick fixes are so appealing, why so many women over 40 still feel stuck despite doing everything right, and why the real answer is almost always deeper than food. This is a conversation about root causes, about self-responsibility, and about getting honest. And it's about why numbing symptoms with drugs and food is not the same as solving the problem. How do you create a life that allows you to lose weight, eat the foods that you love, and sustain the results? Over the last 10 years, I've helped thousands of people do exactly that. I'm Max Lowry. I'm an author, personal trainer, and weight loss coach. In this podcast, I'm going to share my top tips and tricks from within my one-on-one coaching program. It's my goal to give you the tools and the understanding so that you never diet again. Hello, welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today I'm joined by Dr. Joseph Wittdoring, who is a friend of mine. We uh met on a networking, like coaching networking um mentorship, didn't we, Joseph?

Speaker 1:21

We did, you know, we took a great trip down to Mexico and uh and uh played played pickleball together, uh, which uh which was a blast.

Max Lowery 1:29

Yeah, it was my first time playing pickleball, actually. Um and so I've always been really interested in in what you do, and what I love about the coaching mentorship that we're a part of is it's very much kind of focusing on root causes, which is really um what I see uh you know our USP as and how we help our clients. But it would be great to hear from you. Like, yeah, who are you, Joseph? How did you get into what you do and who are you helping at the moment?

Why Mental Health Became Transactional

What Big Pharma And FDA Showed

Speaker 1:52

Yes, so I'm um I'm a psychiatrist that helps people come off psychiatric medications. And um, you know, in a nutshell, how I got into what I do was um, you know, for a really as long as I could remember, I was really into personal development, self-help, you know, how to improve your relationships, how to find meaningful work, how to look after your health and all of that. And uh when I was in medical school, I thought, wow, you know, I'm still interested in all of those things and philosophy, you know, psychology, all of that stuff. Why don't I become a psychiatrist? This would be a great uh opportunity for me to help people and merge that with just my passion for that area. But when I got into the mental health field, essentially what I saw in my internship was like we weren't doing any of that. Uh you know, because of the way the insurance system was working in the US, um, mental health care had become extremely transactional. You know, we weren't really taking the time to understand all of the complexities as to why people were unhappy, you know, you know, problems with their physical, physical health in their relationships, and then in their mindset, and their sense of purpose and meaning. We had just replaced that with scales. You know, it was just like, do you have five of these nine symptoms? Well, you have major depressive disorder, and you know, don't worry, we have a uh FDA-approved treatment for that. Um, and so what I was seeing was this uh very transactional form of mental health care that pretty much always resulted in someone getting a prescription because that's pretty much the only care the system could provide in the time limits, you know, because of the insurance, like most doctors were seeing four people in an hour. You know, doctors aren't bad people, but like when you put them in that time constraint, you know, that then they don't really have time to help you in any way aside from prescribing drugs. That really disturbed me. And I was just like, wow, intuitively this feels really off because there's um there's a lot more to mental health problems than just uh you know drugging away symptoms, and we really can get to the root cause. Um but whenever I brought it up with my professors at my residency, they said, you know, Yosef, nothing to worry about here, you know, don't worry. It's FDA approved, you know, the drugs are safe and effective, you know, uh these are not the droids you're looking for. And so I ended, yeah, I ended up thinking, well, you know, that just doesn't seem right to me. And uh I became and I decided to really dig deep and become an expert in the psychiatric clinical literature. And so I went and worked for Johnson ⁇ Johnson in their pharmaceutical branch, uh Janssen. They make the most psychiatric medications historically in the world. And I did clinical trial development for antidepressant medications there. And then after working uh for Johnson ⁇ Johnson, I went over to the FDA and worked as a medical officer in the division of psychiatry doing drug safety. And essentially I got to see how the sausage was made, you know, the the clinical trials that that support the use of these medications. And um, although I suspected this, uh, I was still horrified when I saw it, uh, that, you know, we are using these medications far outside of um what the clinical trials actually support. And the and the most shocking thing really is that none of these drugs are studied any longer than a year, um, which is insane because uh most people take these uh psychiatric medications uh for several years and and they and they and they wear off. I mean, everyone can tell you, they wear off over time. You know, you become tolerant to the effect, you need higher and higher doses, people accumulate medications, and so when they tell you that the drug is safe and effective, what they forget to say is, yeah, for the year that we studied it for, and uh, you know, outside of that, we don't really know what's going on. And so I saw that, I learned about a whole bunch of side effects um which are, you know, which which we don't uh which we haven't really shared with people, like the sexual dysfunction problems, uh the fact that some of these medications actually make people worse over time. And I just became very upset about that. And I eventually I was like, well, I'm having an identity crisis, you know, I can't really prescribe these medications anymore. What am I gonna do? And so uh my wife and I, you know, my wife's also a psychiatrist, we just said, you know, to hell with this. Like, we're going to open up a practice, and what we're going to do is uh help people come off these medications and replace them with the non-drug alternatives that they should have been offered in the first place. And so about six years ago, we started the practice. Uh, I think we're now in like 16 or 17 U.S. states. It's the largest uh deprescribing practice and uh practice dedicated to non-drug approaches to mental health issues in the world, I believe. And um, you know, now I just go around the, you know, I run the practice and I go around the country. I go on podcasts and, you know, talk to talk to national media outlets about this issue, and uh, and that's essentially uh, you know, me in a nutshell and and my story.

Max Lowery 6:50

Thanks so very much for sharing. It's a fascinating story. And I can also actually resonate with what you were describing at the very start. Um I actually worked in finance uh for four years. I was a stockbroker, and I was, I realized quite, you know, after those four years, I did I do not want to do this anymore. Um, I wanted to help people in some way. I was I was very interested in psychology. And I I did think maybe I'll go back to uni, well, not back to university, go to university full stop. I didn't go to uni um and potentially go down that route of becoming a psychiatrist. And for a variety of reasons, I didn't end up doing that. And it was interesting to hear your story because it kind of confirmed uh in some ways um it was a right decision because I think the way the impact that I'm having on clients now and the way I'm able to help them, I don't think would have happened if I'd gone down that route. Um, so it was yeah, interesting to hear that, Yusuf. I've written quite a few things down, there's a lot of things to discuss there. Um, it would be good to know like who are you helping? Like, is there any specific type of person, or is it anyone that is taking uh any kind of antidepressants?

Speaker 7:54

Yeah, I I like to think that I help three kinds of patients really. I mean, the first one is someone who has been on antidepressants for a long, you know, maybe for 10, 20 years, maybe they went through a divorce or a breakup or they moved town, you know, something just happened in their lives that kicked this off, or maybe it came out of nowhere. You know, they just they they were feeling very poorly, and they're essentially at the end of the rope. You know, they've they've tried multiple medications, they they keep on going up on doses, they keep on adding new medications, and they just look at the trajectory of their life and they just go, I'm just not getting better. You know, I've thrown the kitchen, proverbial kitchen sink at this in terms of psychiatric meds, and you know, I I have brain fog, I have fatigue, I have low motivation, you know, I don't have this zest for life. Generally, with those patients, what we're looking at is someone who um has become toxic on the medications and we need to unwind it to kind of reset their brain. Uh, I work with a lot of high achievers who are so used to being in a state of chronic stress and going and going and going that that when eventually something breaks and they have a panic attack, or even more commonly they have insomnia, they start to take sedatives. They start to take drugs like Xanax, clonopin, Valium, things to help them sleep because they've because of their lifestyle and the way they work and the way they they operate, they that they just wire themselves into a state of chronic stress where their sleep becomes very light and disjointed, and then they need it. And then they find that five, ten years later, they're totally hooked on sedative medications, they're not working anymore, and they're trying to keep everything together without their life falling apart. Um, and so so I get a lot of those people. And then the last group are individuals who um, you know, they may have been experimenting with something like cannabis, and they thought it was like pretty benign, and then all of a sudden they had a manic or a psychotic episode and they ended up on antipsychotic medications or with a bipolar diagnosis. And deep down they know they go, you know, I don't have this condition, it it was drug-induced, but now they're kind of stuck in a hole on all these really strong medications, and they need someone to kind of safely guide them out of that. And so that's th those are I think those are the three major patients that that come to me, knock on my door, and and who I help these days.

Max Lowery 10:09

Yeah, and what's fascinating, Joseph, is I am number two.

Speaker 10:14

Oh, okay.

Max Lowery 10:14

I yeah, uh I about three years ago, um, I basically had a breakdown where I had derealization, depersonalization, panic attacks. Never ever experienced any mental health problems uh at all. But it was essentially because I was under so much stress. We were renovating a house, uh, I was trying to run a business, I had a death in the family. Uh, but in hindsight, I what I realized was like, yes, those external things were creating stress, but actually the issue was the stress I was putting on myself, the internal stress. And I I went through uh I had therapy and uh wasn't medicated, and I went through mindfulness and got through the other side and learned a lot about myself. And I feel like maybe if I didn't have access to the information that I had and wasn't um the way that I was, and maybe was in America and went to my GP about this, um, do you think I probably would have been medicated for what I was experiencing?

Speaker 11:11

So so, Max, I mean, you probably got out of it because you um you have a predisposition to look for root causes for things and and maybe to feel like you have agency and control over, you know, improving your health. But what happens in the United States when that when someone has those symptoms, they go, Oh, you have panic disorder, oh you have insomnia, you know, you have you have uh and so they they dress it up as if it's a medical problem that um originates within your brain, and they don't look at the fact that, okay, you know, you're burning the candle at both ends, you've never learnt any mind-body work, so you so you'll you're lacking the skills to put yourself into a a state of relaxation and calm, which will help you kind of break out of that chronically hyped up, stressed uh state that that impacts sleep and leads to panic attacks. You know, they might say, hey, you need to kind of, you know, you know, they're not going to show that you need to step back from maybe, you know, working all day and then going outside and exercising because you just want to push things really hard. Hey, it's time to take a step back from that, and it's actually time to rejuvenate and let your nervous system calm down. They wouldn't have done any of that. They they wouldn't have taught the person to do those things. They would have essentially said, keep on living the way you are living, this unhealthy way that's essentially gotten you to a place where you're now having panic attacks, and we're just going to put you on these drugs. And and people just get hooked on them. They they they get completely hooked on that because they don't fix the underlying problem and they're now dependent on that chemical.

Max Lowery 12:40

Yeah. And I do you think there's a certain respect that now the patients themselves expect that as well? They they don't want to necessarily focus on these things because they're quite hard, you know, to address these root causes. Um, do you think there's an expectation on the patient front to turn up and be given some kind of drug?

Max On Stress And Recovery

Speaker 12:58

I totally get where that comes from. And I mean, who doesn't like something that's like, you know, quick and easy, right? Like that's I think that's just normal human nature. But I also want to be a little kind to people because I think what happens really is that these uh these quick fix interventions are usually aggressively marketed to people. I think most people intuitively they're like, yeah, I want to get to the root cause. But if all you hear as you're going through your daily basis that, you know, oh, so many people have anxiety disorder, so many people have, you know, sleep problems and depression, and it's not something to be afraid of, it's not something to be stigmatized. And that and taking medication is actually a very modern and responsible way of dealing with your problems because that's very much in the zeitgeist now. Like these drugs and the money behind them has really shaped the narrative about how we talk about them. We rarely talk about the risks, they're seen as just this modern, responsible thing to do. And so I don't blame patients when you know they're just like they're like, you know, I'm struggling, and then someone says, Well, go and talk to your doctor, and the doctor's like, Well, have you thought about taking this medication? And they say, Well, you know, he's in the white coat, you know, let's let's go ahead and do it. And so that's how I see people kind of just get lulled into this. And oftentimes, you know, people are busy as well. You know, they um, you know, they might be doing so many things like to kind of really stop and think and kind of put together like a plan to figure this out. It's hard for them to do it on their own. And as I mentioned earlier, and when I was kind of giving that monologue about what I saw in my um when I was going through training, like the doctors aren't doing that with them. I mean, they have 15 minutes, you know, they're not sitting down and you know talking about all those things. So I mean I I think that's how they end up getting looped into this dysfunctional system.

Max Lowery 14:43

So, what would you say is the number one that they if we want to address and fix the system, what's the number one thing that needs to be addressed, you think, Joseph?

Speaker 14:51

You know, there's so many ways to get at that. Uh, you know, with the fact that the system, I mean, the system is not going to get fixed overnight. You know, doctors are not going to be reimbursed in a way where they can spend more than 15 minutes with patients. And so I I feel like the fix to the system really starts with the patient, and that is we need to teach people to be responsible for their own health again. Um, you know, and it's not just your mental health, I mean it's also your physical health. Like if you have blood sugar dysregulation or if you have high blood pressure or if you're having cholesterol problems, like that's not something that you just address by going to your doctor and jumping on a statin, a high blood pressure medication, you know, and an anti-diabetes drug. Like that's that's not really treatment at all. You're kind of just getting churned through the system. Like you really need to do the things that that they're not going to do with you. And so at a fundamental level, I think people need to be empowered to take more responsibility for their health. And that's why I like having these conversations, because I think we need to sort of pull back the you know the curtain on the on the wizard of oz and and sort of show, you know, this is really what's going on. Like this is this is the system. The system does not um, you know, there's a lot of commercial influence in there that really isn't aligned with your sustainable long-term health. And I think if we can show people that, they'll do a better job at navigating it and also getting themselves on a path towards sustainable long-term health.

Max Lowery 16:18

Yeah, I think you're 100% right. I think it does come down to the individual. Uh, I think the individual does have to take responsibility uh for themselves and not necessarily blindly trust everything they they they hear from that their doctor. You should absolutely trust doctors. That's not what I'm saying. But I think you know, we do have access to information now. Um, you can research. When I was going through my issues, um, the first thing I did was I look things up and tried to kind of understand what was going on. I spoke to people who'd gone through similar things, and then I eventually um reached out to therapists and mindfulness coaches, etc. And that's ultimately why I do what I do. Um, I want to empower my clients to be able to do this themselves. You know, I think there's a big issue with you know, personal trainers and weight loss coaches. It's very much judgment and blame, and you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this, rather than empowering someone to make better decisions for themselves, uh, bring more awareness to their destructive thinking patterns, their destructive uh um habits, uh shift the way they process their emotions and and and the nervous system regulation. And that's yeah, you got it to a point, Yosef, that's exactly why I do what I do, and I'm sure what you do as well.

Why Quick Fixes Win

Speaker 17:30

Yeah. I mean, fundamentally it's like these like whether we're talking about weight loss or finding a sustainable way to manage your mental health, these are really big, scary problems that a lot of people have never learned to do. And um, you know, one of the the greatest things that you can do for someone is just say, hey, it's it's actually not that complicated. You know, if you can just, you know, let's break this big behemoth of a problem down into, you know, step by step, and don't worry, I'm gonna be there with you every step of the way, and I'm just gonna kind of just drag you through this process. Um, and it's it's a wonderful thing to do because then you also teach them that they can do difficult things um and how to do difficult things, and um and a lot of these problems, I think if you find the right person, they're they're not quite as scary or overwhelming as they may initially seem.

Max Lowery 18:21

And we are going to be talking about GLP ones very shortly, uh, because this is ultimately why I brought you on today, Joseph, to give you give your perspective and expertise on this. But before I go there, I would love to hear your perspective because you know, what it seems like is we are more aware of mental health than we ever have been, you know, like especially in the UK, and I'm not sort of so sure in in the US, but in the UK, the very the typical thing was stiff opposit, don't talk about your problems, you know, don't ask, don't tell, that that kind of uh attitude. And now there's more awareness, more empathy, um, more uh help than ever. But it seems mental health is getting worse and worse and worse. It's not improving. Why would you say that's happening? What do you think is going on, Joseph? Really quick one for me, guys. I don't run ads on this podcast, and I do aim to give you as many high-value tips and tricks as I can for free. All I ask in return is that you help me spread the word. That way I can help as many people as I can to never diet again. The way to do that is to rate, review, and share this podcast. A review will only take 30 seconds, but it would mean the world to me, but more importantly, it could help change the life of someone else.

Responsibility And Better Support Paths

Speaker 20:23

Well, I mean, this the system so the mental health system is essentially failing at at doing its job. It's not it's not just in the UK. I mean, if we go back to I mean, one of the best uh proxies for how how well mental health professionals are doing is really the suicide rate. I mean, and we can look at the suicide rate in the US going back to the early 2000s and compare it to where we are now, it's up like 40%. You know, so I mean if if there is one proxy out there for like how well mental health professionals are doing, it's that. And so the reason that um it's getting worse is the system doesn't work. And the reason the system doesn't work is um I think it's actually quite self-evident. It's because we've got one, a lot of people get their mental health care through GPs. They they there's no way. I mean, how could that ever work that you could go in and see someone for 15 minutes and end up on a drug um and that and that would be the fix for your problem? I mean, like if we think about like a mental health system, like I think the psychiatrist should be there to prevent to really prevent emergencies. Like when there's serious like mental health problems, someone is suicidal, by all means. It's okay to use a drug in that situation, get them through a rough period, but then we need to triage them out into professionals. Um and so this is like our army of therapists out there and uh and um I I guess also dietitians as well, because mental health is about you know, you need to have a healthy body to have a healthy mind, and so a lot of that's nutrition and movement. It's a lot of that is also getting off harmful substances. Um and then when it comes to when it comes to the mind, it's you know, people are out there and they're and they're having problems with their relationships, they're having problems with uh negative thoughts, they're having problems with obsessive symptoms, all of this. And and we we have great therapies that are really targeted towards those things, but we never send people there. I I feel like most doctors, you know, either they're not aware of the of how to refer out to them or they don't have the professional network to refer to them. So so so these patients they they end up really not getting to the right people who have the skills to fix their problem, and uh a lot of the time they just end up on drugs. And so I mean that's my you know thirty thousand foot view of the situation. We have uh a very dysfunctional system that's really struggling. To get people to the right people, uh, to the to the right professionals. I think the insurance system also plays a big role with that as well, Max. Like there's a lot of um like in the US, it's really hard to find like a therapist that even takes insurance now. And so you end up calling these big lists of people. Like it just sucks. It's just it's just a bad system. One, why is mental health getting worse? You know, the we're not doing a good job at helping people. Maybe there's an argument as well to say that like the world is more stressful in some ways. I think social media certainly hasn't helped. I think replacing in-person uh community with online community is a bad thing. You know, you could talk about economic struggles and such, but that's I mean, that that's what I think is going on.

Max Lowery 23:36

Yeah, and really this is ultimately why I brought you in today, Joseph, um, to kind of tie everything that we're talking about into GLP1 medication ultimately, because although I know there is certainly a use case, 100%, if you are about to die of obesity, GLP1 medication can save your life, right? It is in some ways a wonder drug. Um, and there are there are plenty of use cases where it should be used. I think my concern is essentially this is just another band-aid, uh, another uh issue that we're talking about, which can be lumped into uh, you know, these the same medications uh with antidepressants and the same big pharma of address not addressing the root causes, not you know, someone is sedentary, eating junk food left, right, and center, um not prioritizing themselves, and then just taking an injection or a tablet to to fix that. Um I would love to hear your perspective on that, uh Joseph. And I would also love to hear um your uh understanding of what the mental health uh consequences are of taking these drugs.

GLP-1s And The Band-Aid Risk

Speaker 24:48

Okay, so let's start with the first piece of that. I think I I look at I I mean I I do think overeating is a psychiatric problem in the same way I think um and and that might seem like a stretch to some people, but I agree. Yeah, it's um like if we talk about I I feel like people break in different ways. Like if you put someone in a state of chronic stress, I think some people will go into gaming addiction. I think some people will develop problems with pornography, I think some people can start gambling, I think some people can just fall into a depression, I think some people can overeat, uh, I think some people can use drugs. I feel like we owe people break in different ways and then they reach out for something that soothes their emotions. And so what I always want people to do is to be really curious about their emotions. And so if you're feeling tense, if you're feeling restless, if you're feeling bored, and you're reaching for food to to deal with that, um, because you you notice that it kind of calms you down, um, you're essentially just medicating it with food. And and really what we want you to do is to look at where those feelings are coming from. You know, uh and I I break it, you know, this is a very like back at the napkin way I think about like the mental health problems. They come from your body, they come from your mind, and they come from your spirit. And if I break it down, like if you're having these symptoms, like look at your body. You know, are you eating good food? Are you moving your body? Are you making sure it's free from harmful substances? That's one of the ways that you feel unwell. You you need to also look at your mind. Like, are you are you someone who needs to learn the cognitive and emotional skills to really um um to to control your mind because you can, you know, so you don't you know just become easily overwhelmed, uh ruminate on negative things, you're fighting against things that you really have no power to change against. There, there is a lot of ways you can train your mind, and so that's like another area. And then the final thing I think is really your spirit, which are the essential human things that we need. So love, connection, meaning, purpose, safety, you know, not living in a place where you know everyone's on drugs or there's violence around you. And so there's there's like that's where you need to be paying attention, you know. You because I mean you may end up 500 pounds and the and and beneath it there's a lack of purpose, there's a loneliness, you know, there's you know, there's inflammation from bad food. Like that's the thing that you want to get to. And if you just start getting on a GLP one and that's just gonna suppress your appetite, and you don't fix all of those problems, they just fester there in the background. It's hard for me to imagine anyway that that would lead to like you actually feeling better and having a better life. Like I think you will I think you'll be skinnier, that that's for sure. And um, but but it's really not getting to the underlying problem.

Max Lowery 27:48

So um before we go into it, and I completely completely agree, Joseph. Um I think look, there's no question these drugs help you lose weight. That's not what we're questioning here. Um the the the research and the the evidence points to they are very effective for helping you lose weight. The question is what happens after you stop taking them? And the question the second question is what happens to all these other things which are the reason you've put on the weight in the first place. And I think this is the issue with the weight loss industry at the first in the first place. It's very reductive, it's very surface level. And I really like the way that you you feel like I do that um you know, overeating is a psychiatric psychological issue. And that's exactly what I feel and I see with my clients as well. Um, weight gain is a symptom of underlying issues, whether it's emotional regulation issues, whether it's mindset issues, whether it's identity issues, um, whether it's your nervous system uh regulation issues, whether you say with the spiritual aspect, which people virtually never take into consideration, the lack of meaning, the lack of connection, you know, we we have these core emotional needs that must be fulfilled. And if they're not fulfilled, they'll be filled with the drugs, the gambling, the shopping, the excessive working, etc. And so the issue with taking something like GLP1, it will help you lose weight, but you're still gonna have all these problems. And they will, and I like the word use festa, because they will come back to bite you at some point uh in the future.

The Online GLP-1 Gold Rush

Speaker 29:17

Yeah, and I and I and I do think, you know, I don't want to shame anyone listening to this who's taking a GLP1 right now, uh, because uh yes, they definitely have their place. I mean, if you are obese and you have signs of heart disease, or if you have signs of uh um non-alcoholic, fatty, fatty liver, or all of these other things that can help. Um but it's it's kind of the same way I feel about antidepressant medications. Like, I'm okay with using medications to get out of a really rough patch, but you don't want them to be the only solution. You also you want them to be used in conjunction with a strategy that gets to the root cause. And and one of the big problems that I see in the GLP one market, particularly in the US, is that there is like a huge push to kind of sell them online through online pharmacies and uh right now. And it's essentially just like a cash grab. It's like uh it's like a gold rush. These are billion-dollar drugs. In fact, I think Mongiano made Eli Lilly a trillion dollar company. I think it's the top one of the top 12 companies in the world now. It's it's like their their their worth is is huge. And so, I mean, I see Tom Brady, who's a legendary NFL player in the United States, selling um GLP ones through an online pharmacy now. You know, I see um Serena Williams during during the Super Bowl selling this stuff. And it's essentially like these companies are like, hey, you know, you can get this drug, it's for weight loss, you could do it from the comfort of your own couch. It's like 150 bucks a month. None of them are invested in really helping you get to the root cause. They're trying to make cash of that transaction of just like getting you the drug, but that is not real medical care. That is, you know, someone just making a cut of you know, facilitating you getting this this drug in a way. And so, again, it's gonna be one of those things where let's not demonize the drug. The drug has a place, but there's so much marketing there that's just like take the drug, take the drug. Like you're gonna, you know, it's you know, this is the the best decision you'll ever make. You, you know, you'll be skinnier, you know, you'll be like all of these things, you'll feel sexier, you'll get in a relationship, like everything will work. There's no um, and and that just becomes the way people think about it. There's there's no real big commercial message behind, hey, let's get to the underlying root cause. Let's find a way to get you off this drug in about nine months after you've lost 20 pounds and transition to something safely. Um, because that would that would be the thing that's really in the patient's best interest.

Mental Health Side Effects Of GLP-1s

Max Lowery 31:54

Yeah, and I think that's exactly my issue and concern with it. Like, no judgment or blame for thinking of taking it. Like, I understand deeply the pain that uh, you know, we we work exclusively with women over the age of 40. And our clients have been dieting, put, you know, put on a diet from the age of 13. Their mums have taking them to Weight Watchers. It's impacted their entire lives. Um, they are achieving things in other areas of their life, they are successful, but when it comes to this, they can't succeed, and it leads to a whole load of guilt and blame and frustration, and it tarnishes their relationships, their jobs, uh, their self-respect, their self-esteem. So I completely understand why GLP1 can seem um like a thing to turn towards, but what I'm seeing myself, and I guess it's a kind of a mirror of what you're seeing, is now I'm getting a lot of women who have taken GLP1 and they've had to stop taking them either because of the cost or because of the side effects. And as when they stop taking them, the weight comes back on. And so that's happening more and more and more. So I think I had a discussion with um Dr. Mitra Dutt last week, and you know, she made a good point of that people will eventually realize that they will have to address the root causes because the GLP1 medication is only going to take them so far. Um, I think three-quarters of people end up stop taking it, and a very high percentage the weight comes back on. So what I would love to hear from you, Joseph, is um, you know, we've gone into detail on this podcast about what GLP1 medications are and what the physical side effects are, but what I haven't heard uh much about is the mental and psychological side effects. I would love to hear your perspective on that.

Speaker 33:34

Yeah, so so yeah, so let me jump into that. So, you know, as a psychiatrist who takes people off medications, I'm often thinking, you know, where did the symptoms come from to begin with? And one of the hidden causes that people overlook a lot are actually other pharmaceutical drugs. Um, and I know we're gonna talk about GLP ones, but I have to mention the oral contraceptive pill. Like hormonal birth control for a lot of women causes mood dysregulation that is completely overlooked, especially for things like the marina, which is like the implanted intrauterine device. People think, oh, it's just localized. It's not gonna, it's not gonna play a role systemically. That's not what the research shows. And so I'm constantly looking at drugs, um, at the drugs that people are on and taking histories to see, you know, did these new drugs line up with mood changes? I read the labels, I look at all the safety data for that. And so um, along with things like oral contraceptive pills, the mental health side effects of GLP1s are, I mean, I mean, they really are a thing. They they can make people anxious, they can make people depressed. Um, I mean, it's so common that people actually call it Ozempic personality. I mean, you can look online if you just go Google Ozempic personality and then click like the forums tab, you will see all of these people talking about how they've become depressed, anxious, they've developed insomnia, they just feel flat, some of them feel blunted and like disconnected. And that kind of makes sense if we think about it. Like this is a drug that's changing our neurotransmitters in order to make food less like appealing to us. And yes, it can make food less appealing to you, but it may also just like kind of blunt your reward drive when it comes to the rest of your life and how like engaged you are with things. And so while this doesn't happen to everyone, it's something that I want people to be aware of because I mean, the last thing that we want is someone to get on a GLP1 to become depressed and then go and see the doctor, and the doctor says, Oh, you've just developed panic disorder, you've developed major depressive disorder, let's put you on an antidepressant medication. You know, a year and a half goes by, you're totally dependent on that drug, and like you really never needed it. You were essentially medicating the side effect of a GLP1. So I think so. I think chemically there's a way it can do it. I also worry just about like taking a GLP1, but maybe not improving your diet. Like, if if if you are eating crap food, um I mean we've had so many uh randomized studies now that show when you eat a mostly whole foods diet that has minimum processed foods, it just boosts your mood. And it's it's obvious why that that's the case. I mean, uh you need micronutrients for neurotransmitter function, you need good protein for neurotransmitter function, you need all of these things. And so, like if you start to suppress your appetite, but you're not actually feeding your body the actual things that it needs to sustain, you know, just the physical health of the body and the brain, you're gonna feel poorly as well. Um, and the last thing that I'll say on this is that major regulators are not looking into this right now. In fact, some of them are even saying that there are no mental health side effects, which is the biggest mistake ever. And uh, because it's so clear that there is, do not be dis, you know, do not be persuaded by anyone who says that these drugs don't have mental health side effects. It may not be happening in everyone, but at least in a small, and I would say a small growing group of people, this is what I'm seeing in my practice and what I'm seeing online, they really are having mood changes. Um, and in some cases, and this is in the medical literature, it's led to things like suicide. And so please be very mindful if you start a GLP one just to track your mood. And if things like if you start getting emotional or depressed and it seems completely out of context to the stresses in your life, and it started after you take took that GLP1, you may want to have a look at that and and consider coming off it. Generally, what I see in my practice is within two to three weeks, the mood symptoms will go away. So it's fairly easy to test as well.

Max Lowery 37:43

Thanks so much for sharing Joseph. And I think the the problem is there isn't long-term data on this at the moment, is there? Uh, because it hasn't been used. Uh the GLP1 medication was initially for type 2 diabetics, from my understanding. Um, for this use case, weight loss, it's it's very new, isn't it?

Speaker 38:00

Yeah, I mean, this is like a technical point. I I think the GLP1s have actually been studied for like three years in clinical trials. So that's that's a pretty decent amount of time to track for mood changes. But having worked at the FDA and seen what the safety systems are like there, um, when they run the clinical trials, they don't do a good job at detecting these um these uh issues. And really where this signal turns up the clearest are just in the millions of people who are taking them and who are now talking about it. The drug hasn't been around that long, but I I am very, very confident that these drugs are causing mental health side effects in people who are vulnerable to them. Um, and and and that's for sure. And what I want to ask, anyone listening to this right now, if you have been on a GLP one, could you just drop it in the comment below this and just did you have mental health side effects? What happened? Because I think people love reading that. I'm I want to circle back to this video and I want to read the comments to see if anyone experienced that after going on a GLP one. I I think it's really illuminating.

Key Takeaway And Where To Go Next

Max Lowery 39:03

Yeah, it's a great point because you know we can talk about this all day long. But if you guys actually have perse first hand experience, uh please do share that in the comments below. So to wrap up, Joseph, what would be the main thing that you want uh listeners to take away from today? Uh I guess on two different subjects. Number one on the topic of antidepressants and mental health, um, and number two on GLP1 medication.

Speaker 39:27

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna do, I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone right now. And the main thing that I want people to walk away from this remembering is that how you feel means something. If you're feeling tense, if you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling hungry all the time, it's not a problem with your genetics, it's not a problem with your brain. I'm gonna say 99% of the time, at least that's for sure, it means something and you need to be curious about it. And there are people out there that that can help you solve those problems. And so, I mean, the first step is just digging into it and being curious. And um, I mean, that's and so that's what I would say, you know, how you feel really means something and you need to listen to it.

Max Lowery 40:06

I think that's great advice, and that's definitely something I've noticed with with clients and why they have the problems that they do with their weight is because they, like we described earlier, they're using food to distract and to numb from their feelings and their and their emotions. And so, uh, and it could be food, it could be drugs, it could be gaming, it could be shopping, it could be anything. And I think ultimately, I'll put in uh inverted commas negative feelings, because are they even negative, right? They they serve a purpose. Um, they can potentially tell you something that isn't right in your life. They are messengers. Um, so I think the more uh you you lean into them and understand them and learn to process them, you're gonna end up uh in a much potentially more positive place than if you are constantly medicating, distracting and uh downplaying and minimizing and avoiding them. So I think that's uh that's great advice, Joseph. Um where can people find out more information about you, Joseph?

Speaker 41:05

Sure. So um if you're in the US and you're interested in potentially coming off a psychiatric medication and transitioning to a non-drug alternative, uh taperclinic.com is our website. And if you're anywhere else and um or even in the US and you're just you're just curious, you want to learn more about how to safely come off medication, how to manage your mental health without drugs, best place to go is the Dr. Joseph YouTube channel. It's spelt in the German way, so it's J-O-S-E-F. And we publish regularly over there, and we kind of give away all of our secrets in tapering and non-drug strategies. And so that's a great place to go. I'm also on pretty much every social media platform under Dr. Josef. And so, you know, if you're on X and you like that, or Instagram or TikTok, you can find me and my content there as well.

Max Lowery 41:57

Yeah, we'll link everything in the show notes. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for joining, Joseph. It's been great to hear your perspective uh on things. I really respect your opinion and love what you're doing. And I feel like although we work with different types of people, I think there's a lot of commonalities in the way that we want to help people. And I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 42:14

You know, that's what I was thinking, Max. I was just like, I feel like we're doing the exact same thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Uh but yeah, thanks a lot, Joseph. All right, thanks, Max.