#109 The Link Between ADHD, Emotional Eating & Menopause Nobody Talks About with Will Fraser

What if your “lack of discipline” is actually an ADHD brain searching for stimulation?

In this episode, I’m joined by meditation coach Will Fraser to talk about ADHD, menopause, dopamine, emotional eating, phone addiction, and why so many women over 40 suddenly feel like their brain won’t switch off.

We explore why ADHD symptoms can get worse during perimenopause, why food and scrolling become quick dopamine hits, and why meditation may be one of the most powerful tools for improving focus, impulse control, emotional regulation, and nervous system regulation.

But this isn’t about sitting perfectly still with an empty mind.

It’s about learning how to notice your thoughts, urges, and impulses without being controlled by them.

If you’ve ever thought:

“I can’t meditate.”
“My brain is too busy.”
“I can’t stop snacking.”
“I’m always overwhelmed.”
“I know what to do, but I can’t follow through.”

This episode will change how you see yourself.

Because you’re not lazy, broken, or undisciplined. Your brain may simply be stuck in a loop of stimulation, stress, and dopamine-seeking behaviour.

And once you understand that, you can start to change it.

 Find out more about Will Fraser here:
 www.mind-beyond-matter.com

Watch my The Cravings & Fat-Burning Masterclass:  https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/register-podcast

Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/max.lowery/

Book a Food Freedom Breakthrough Call: https://www.neverdietagainmethod.uk/call-ig

Transcript

Why ADHD In Women Is Rising

Max Lowery 0:00

A lot of women over 40 are suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD. And honestly, I don't think this is being talked about enough. Because when you actually look at the symptoms, so many women will recognize themselves. Overwhelm, emotional eating, impulsive behavior, doom scrolling, procrastination, anxiety, difficulty switching off, constantly seeking stimulation, feeling mentally exhausted. And what's interesting is that a lot of these symptoms often get worse during paramenopause and menopause. Now, one of the most powerful tools for managing these symptoms is meditation. Not because meditation magically fixes everything, but because it trains the exact skills people with ADHD often struggle with. Focus, attention, impulse control, emotional regulation, nervous system regulation, the ability to pause before reacting. There's research showing that a short daily meditation practice can improve attention and even change the structure of the brain. But here's the problem. Most people with ADHD think they can't meditate. They think my brain is too busy. I can't sit still. I can't switch my mind off. I've tried mindfulness before and failed. But what if that's the whole point? What if meditation isn't about having an empty mind? What if it's learning how to notice your mind without being controlled by it? Well, today's guest is Will Fraser. Will is a meditation coach, former school leader, and someone who personally struggles with ADHD. In this conversation, we talk about ADHD, menopause, dopamine, emotional eating, phone addiction, nervous system regulation, and why meditation might be one of the most useful tools for anyone who feels like their brain never switches off. So even if you think meditation isn't for you, this episode will still be useful. Let's get into it. How do you create a life that allows you to lose weight, eat the foods that you love, and sustain the results? Over the last 10 years, I've had thousands of people do exactly that. I'm Max Lowry. I'm an author, personal trainer, and weight loss coach. In this podcast, I'm going to share my top tips and tricks from within my one-on-one coaching program. It's my goal to give you the tools and understanding so that you never die again. Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today I'm joined by Will Fraser, who is a meditation coach. And we actually met like two weeks ago near Stroud at a mutual friend's house, and we got talking about meditation ADHD, and I thought gotta get him on the podcast. So, Will, I would love to yeah, get a bit of background about who you are, uh how you got into what you do, what's your background, and yeah, just share as much as you can.

Speaker 1 2:24

Yeah, so um thanks for having me. Um yeah, so I'm a meditation coach and meditation teacher, um, and really my sort of journey with meditation began probably at the start of my I used to be a secondary school teacher, it began at the start of my teaching career. The principal of the school asked me to run an after-school extracurricular meditation club or mindfulness club, and I knew nothing about it. Um, I think maybe he sort of asked me because he thought it'd be good for me, because I'm quite an ADHD high-energy person. Um, and he he just said, it's easy, you've you've got this little book of scripts that you can just read, um, just get the kids to sit quietly, get them comfortable, read the scripts, and you know, they'll be great. So that's that was my introduction to meditation, and I was you know a little bit cynical, maybe perhaps a little bit um, you know, preconceived ideas about what meditation was. Um, and I just found that it actually was like a really amazing space at the end of a hectic school day to just be in a kind of still mindset, um to just be able to sort of focus inwards for 45 minutes, and the kids really found it valuable as well. And then from there I it sort of expanded and you know, I I did a bit of traveling uh between jobs, went to India, Nepal, Thailand, places like that, and kind of saw firsthand how this kind of spiritual culture is different to ours, where you know, inner experience and inner stillness is like a really big part of the culture. And I just kind of it you know, it kept developing from there, um, you know, went down some of the more wacky kind of spiritual type meditations, um, have led me to some interesting directions and kind of shaped my whole outlook on reality. Um, but I think that's a topic for another podcast, perhaps. Um but yeah, and and then I sort of got to 15 years of teaching, um, and I was quite burnt out by, you know, I was I was in senior leadership, so I was the assistant principal of the school, and um there was part of me that just sort of craved something in a much more kind of still mindful space as opposed to the hectic day-to-day frenetic activity of the school. Um, and so I decided I was going to basically take a big risk, quit my job, um, and set myself up as a meditation teaching coach. Um, and then I got my certification from the British School of Meditation, which is the UK's only accredited uh qualification for meditation teachers. Um, and then yeah, and then I sort of evolved from there, really online courses, one-to-one tuition. Um, I'm hoping to get some retreats and day workshops set up in the near future.

ADHD Background And Late Diagnosis

Max Lowery 5:03

Love that. And I think that's kind of why we connected and bonded, is because it's a very similar story with myself. I worked in finance for four years, this is a while ago, and then you know, quit um to become a coach and been doing this for 12 years now. And well, obviously, one of the topics we're going to be talking about today is ADHD because women uh over the age of 40 are getting diagnosed late um more and more and a late life diagnosis. What's your journey with ADHD?

Speaker 1 5:28

So I didn't really know what ADHD was. Um I'd never really heard of it because it was never really a big part of the educational zeitgeist in this country um until probably the early 2000s. Um I was just one of those annoying kids at school that couldn't sit still, um, that you know, constantly fidgeting. Uh, some of the teachers loved me, some of them didn't know how to handle me. Um, one of the teachers in my primary school just left me outside in the in the sandpit for an afternoon because she didn't know how to handle me. Um, and then as I got older, I just kind of accepted that I was probably just quite an annoying person to be around. Um, but as I got older, I sort of found ways to self-regulate, uh, mainly because of the social feedback I was getting from my peers that sometimes I could be a little bit too much. Um, and then when I went to university, um I actually ended up living with uh someone who was studying educational psychology, and she said, having lived with me for a while and observed me, she said, Have you got ADHD? And I said, Well, I don't really know what that is. The only time I'd ever really heard of ADHD was in on TV, I think it was the Simpsons where Bart Simpson gets diagnosed with ADHD and they put him on Ritalin and he becomes a zombie. So I I'd never really heard of it before, and then and then she gave me, you know, as part of her coursework, she gave me this the standard educational psychology test, and and I came back pretty positive. So yeah, that's how I found out I had ADHD. And then from that point on, I've just sort of learned, as I said, ways to adapt, ways to deal with it. Um, I know we're gonna talk about meditation later, but that that's sort of part of that.

Max Lowery 6:59

Thanks very much for sharing. And yeah, my sister was actually diagnosed late uh in her, I guess, late 20s, and she's convinced that I may have ADHD. I've done some of the tests, and I, you know, there's some traits for sure. She just says I manage it well. I'm just I'm hype functioning. I'm not I'm not sure. Um, but yeah, nothing, no diagnosis or anything. And actually, I I also remember being at school and teachers not knowing what to do with some of my friends who I'm still friends with who definitely did have ADHD and were dyslexic as well. And in fact, um, similar story, two of them had to stand in the corridor facing the wall for every break time for a two weeks, I think. And actually, I remember specifically remember their parents coming in on like 10 days in and being like, What are you doing to our children? Um, and actually they left because they weren't dealing with it properly. So I think people are dealing with it better nowadays, there's more awareness. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 7:54

Um potentially to the point of overdiagnosis, I might I might suggest. But you know, having worked in the the education industry for 15 years, there's there's definitely much more um knowledge of how to deal with it and how to accommodate it and and support available. But I do think there is a danger of overdiagnosis as well. But but also society's changing and and the pressures that make people have attention deficit traits are increasing as well, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. So I think there's probably a few things hand in hand there.

Max Lowery 8:24

Well, actually, that's what I want to talk about right now, because I think the reason this is important is because I'm personally interested in it, and I I also think um our listeners are women over the age of 40 and may have children who are at school now who are being impacted by this. So you know, in your 15-year career as a teacher, have you noticed anything with attention in in children?

Phones And The Attention Crisis

Speaker 1 8:43

Absolutely. I mean it's it's a uh it's a disaster. Um the the doom scroll, kind of the infinite scroll, the dopamine uh hijacking, the um the notifications, the kind of constant seeking of that dopamine hit, which the apps and the social media have have found a way to kind of hack um to get you hooked onto those things. It's it's really quite bad. And you know, I'm I'm fully on board with school fanning phones and and even you know an under-16 fan for social media in general, because I think it really has had a terrible impact. And it all kind of began really with the with, as I said, the the infinite scroll, which I think was probably invented around about 2010. Um and it just it's just designed to keep you hooked and the algorithm to feed you more and more and more. And young brains are incredibly malleable, you know, they're they're they're undeveloped. And and if you're training the brain to need that dopamine at a very early age, that then you're stuck with that for the rest of your life. And that's that's going to cause real damage, I think.

Max Lowery 9:42

Yeah, I read a book called Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport, which is a very good book, and he goes into detail. He was speaking to a Facebook whistleblower, I think, who has also written his own books on the topic. And he talked about how essentially the swiping is like a roulette machine. It's the same addictive um things going on because essentially it's it's random intermittent reward that you get. So you don't get a dopamine response every single time you log in and swipe, but also you don't get it not at all. It's that you don't know when you're gonna get it, and that's what keeps people uh hooked and addicted. And you know, it's it's bad enough for adults, right? I have to constantly check myself with my social media and my my phone use because obviously my job uh marketing the job and uh is is on social media social media and Instagram. I have to play that game, but it's a constant battle of trying to keep it in check with uh deleting certain apps, locking myself out of certain apps over the weekends, not having my phone in my bedroom, uh having quite hard and fast rules with my wife when we're having dinner, that we won't have um phones at the table, same with friends. So, you know, the impact that it must be having on children must be even greater. And I think we're only just beginning to realize the you know, people are just catching up to it now, hence the bans, uh, hence uh all this stuff happening. Um, and you know, I'm hoping it might be just well known that like you wouldn't get a child to smoke, you're not gonna get them on a or drive, drive a car or drink, or take drugs, yeah, you're not gonna get them on something that can literally rewire their brain and their dopamine circuits.

Speaker 1 11:23

Yeah.

Max Lowery 11:24

And I'm curious, in your opinion, and I don't know if there are stats on this somewhere, but like how much of the kind of potential ADHD overdiagnosis is literally just lack of attention because of their brain, people's uh children's brains being rewired from uh TV, uh, because even Netflix and movies now, the shot length are shorter, they're they're filmed in a way that they know someone is going to be reading a uh looking at a screen at the same time, so they're really dumbed down and the repetitive. Like, how much do you think is just uh is actually ADHD, or is it just uh you know a symptom of what we're um the the society?

Speaker 1 12:04

Well, just on that note, I I heard a really awful thing the other day. As someone who loves films, apparently um gen alpha are watching films at 1.2 speed. Oh wow because they want to get through them faster, um, which is just you know, that's mind-blowing. Um yeah, so I mean, like I said, it's it's a real kind of chicken and egg situation, and it's very hard to kind of disentangle the cause versus the effect, you know what I mean? Because um obviously children are becoming more ADHD because of the technology, and they're and they're and it's almost it's almost like diabetes, you know. You have type A diabetes and type B diabetes. The type A I I'll probably get this the wrong way around, but the one you're born with and is genetic, yeah. And then type B is the one that you acquired through diet or whatever. Obviously, you're the expert on on uh weight loss. Is that did I get that one right?

Max Lowery 12:54

Because type one, you're genetic. Um, you're either born with or stress uh and life events can induce it, and it's where your pancreas stops producing insulin. Uh, type two is usually uh lifestyle related later in life um because of insulin resistance.

Speaker 1 14:04

So I would almost say there's almost like type one ADHD and type two ADHD now. You've got type one ADHD, which is the genetic or the you know temp the dispositional, and then type two is the is the induced through social media. But as I said, unfortunately, because the brain does develop at that crucial kind of teenage age that social media very much um targets, it will affect you for the rest of your life. I mean, luckily there is a thing called neuroplasticity, which means that your brain can rewire itself at any stage in your life. Um, but it is increasingly difficult to break those habits once they're established and and and they become part of culture and part of lifestyle.

Type One Versus Type Two ADHD

Meditation Can Rewire Attention

Max Lowery 14:43

You know, I'm glad you kind of used the uh um neurons and uh neurons in the brain because that's exactly how we help our clients, and it's it's a frame that we give our clients of right now when they turning are turning to food because of stress and negative emotion, it's because they've they've done that so many times, there are very strong neural pathways in their brain, which make it very easy for them to do that. And what we try to do with our clients is slowly but surely create new neural pathways where they maybe create space instead of turning to food or do something else rather than food. And that's really hard at first, but the more repetitions you get it you get in, again, you're rewiring your brain to so that that becomes the default. Um, and then that can actually become part of who you are and your identity, which is um a huge part of what we do. Um so I mean I'm interested then. So you're are you saying that um with the right practice, people with ADHD can potentially um reduce and rewire uh the severity of it?

Speaker 1 15:42

Absolutely, yeah. There's so there's been various studies. Um Harvard Medical School, for example, did a study uh where they gave um short 10-minute meditation practice to a to a group of people with described um self-described attention difficulties, um and they found that just by doing 10 minutes of meditation practice a day, their attention spans sort of remarkably increased. And they they also did um fmri scans on brains and found that that meditation practice actually re-kind of uh reconfigured the anatomy of the brain. So, for example, um one of the symptoms of um attention deficit traits is that the prefrontal cortex shrink, which is the kind of planning and self-regulation part of the brain. And actually, just a short meditation practice is is able to increase gray matter in that part of the brain. So there's there's science that proves it's not just a kind of state of mind situation, it's actually an anatomical change that can be brought about through this as well.

Max Lowery 16:41

That's fascinating because there's definitely one thing that I've noticed, and there's no judgment or blame about this uh either, anyone that's listening, but I've definitely noticed are especially when you see social media and also people I know in real life, it's like their ADHD diagnosis becomes part of who they are. It's worn like a badge of honor. And I think that's in some ways positive. It's like you know, owning it and there's no shame. But then potentially if if that becomes part of your identity, you're closing your off yourself off to that rewiring um and maybe improving it if that's just how you are and you can't change it.

Speaker 1 17:16

Yeah, and but but like I said, it's it's the brain's a bit like a muscle, really. You know, it's like exercise. Um, ev everyone can exercise, everybody can can get up and do 10,000 starts, everyone can go to the gym, but it takes training, you know what I mean? And everyone starts at a different place. So, yes, I believe that some people will find it probably a longer road to get to that point where they can self-regulate and they can, you know, take back control, if you'll excuse the expression of their kind of neural network. But everybody's capable of doing it, it just requires training and and a bit of you know, time set set aside a day, just 10 minutes a day, like to get fit probably takes you know 30 minutes to an hour a day, whereas to get your brain firing as it should be, it probably only takes well, it does, it only takes 10 minutes a day.

Perimenopause Links To ADHD Symptoms

Meditation Myths That Block People

Max Lowery 18:01

So yeah, and I agree with that, but I think the point I was trying to make was if you have made ADHD a part of your identity and accepted this is just how it is, then potentially you're going to close yourself off to the training and think, oh no, and well ultimately this is why I brought you in the podcast today, because a lot of the, you know, I know from first hand experience working exclusively with women over the age of 40, over a thousand in the last uh 12 years, a very like a pretty high percentage have got ADHD. And I hear things like, I can't do meditation because I've got ADHD. And actually, just before we get into it, and we're just going to read some stats. Um, so just to kind of to give context about why we're talking about this, in adult diagnosed ADHD, women are often diagnosed much later than men. One study found the largest group of women with ADHD were first diagnosed between ages 41 to 50. Around 70% of women report worsening ADHD symptoms during perimenopause. Estrogen affects dopamine regulation, which is heavily involved in focus, motivation, and impost control. Declining estrogen during menopause may amplify ADHD symptoms. Women with ADHD report significantly higher perimenopause. Yeah, this is interesting, actually, and I've I've heard this recently. So there was a study that came out very recently. Women with ADHD report significantly higher perimenopause or symptom scores than women without ADHD. And many women are misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression before realizing ADHD is underneath it. So this is ultimately why we're on this podcast speaking about this today, because what I want to learn from you, Will, is firstly, let's talk about maybe the common misconceptions that people have, or people all people have about meditation, but in particular people with ADHD have about medic uh meditation.

Speaker 1 19:47

So I think the first and most relevant misconception to what we're talking about is that meditation has to take a long time. So, you know, you you you'll probably read about um these kind of holy and vow people that say, Oh, I meditate for two hours a day and it's changed my life, etc. etc. Um, there's the conception that you have to sort of uh be completely successful at it in the sense that you have to be able to shut your mind off completely, otherwise you're not doing it right. Um, and there's also the misconception that it's only for people who are capable of sitting still for a long time. So, firstly, the first one about time, um, you know, we said 10 minutes a day is more than adequate to get yourself into a routine where you can find that kind of meditative state quickly. Um, as I said, it does need a little bit of training, but 10 minutes a day is is all it takes. Um but when you're sat there doing nothing and you know trying to get yourself into that meditative state rather than special save and doing nothing. 10 minutes can feel like a very long time, especially someone with ADHD. Um but what's really interesting is once it's a bit like riding a bike, once you're able to tune into that meditative state, you can find that really quickly. Um it's like tuning the dial on the radio, and then that 10 minutes becomes like a real refuge and a real place of kind of uh uh peace and and um what's the word I'm trying to look for? Like uh inner inner stillness that you almost kind of uh are looking forward to returning to um time and again. So yeah, I think time time is fine, like you just need to do 10 minutes a day. I think a lot of people think that if your mind isn't completely empty or if you're not in a completely tranquil state of um bliss, you're not doing it correctly. Well, actually the the point of meditation is the exercise itself, it's it's the idea that you identify and you notice when your mind is doing certain things and you acknowledge it and you let it move on in its own way. It's about relinquishing control of your mind and just observing it from a distance. And some people think that you have to be in this sort of thoughtless bliss to be to be doing it correctly, and that's that's not true. It's about the process.

Max Lowery 21:49

Yeah, that's 100% correct. And this is definitely what I see with uh a lot of our clients because we have mindfulness coach within the program. Mindfulness has personally changed my life. I've gone into into this in previous episodes, and um, you know, I do practice breath work and meditation, and that's what I hear the most is this idea that your mind is going to be empty. And if you're if it's not empty, if these thoughts are popping into your head, then you're not doing it right. And that's obviously, as you've just established, is not true at all. I mean, because the really the act of meditation, the act of mindfulness is noticing, being able to notice these thoughts pop into your head without entertaining them and engaging with them and identifying with them. You literally cannot stop those thoughts, uh, as far as I know, um popping into your head because they're coming from your unconscious, they're coming from somewhere that you have uh no control over.

Observing Thoughts Without Fighting Them

Rate Review And Share Request

Speaker 1 22:43

That's exactly right. It's about it's about essentially creating a distance between your and identifying that you are not your thoughts, that your thoughts have Happen to you rather than the thoughts being you, if you see what I mean. And mindfulness is all about just establishing that that distance and that objective lens to be able to look at your own mind almost as a kind of impartial observer.

Labelling Impulses To Calm ADHD

Max Lowery 23:04

Really quick one for me, guys. I don't run ads on this podcast, and I do aim to give you as many high-value tips and tricks as I can for free. All I ask in return is that you help me spread the word. That way I can help as many people as I can to never diet again. The way to do that is to rate, review, and share this podcast. A review will only take 30 seconds, but it would mean the world to me, but more importantly, it could help change the life of someone else. And you know, we're really getting into why we incorporate mindfulness with our clients because our clients suffer from uh nervous system dysregulation. They are avoiding negative thoughts and emotions and using food or alcohol to suppress these things. They're trapped in negative um thought patterns, negative self-talk, very critical on themselves, all or nothing thinking, limiting beliefs. Um, and you know, no blame at all. This is a symptom of dieting and society and uh diet culture, which create and the pressure that is on women, as well as the changing hormones of the perimenopause and menopause, and what you just described there of um helping our clients realize that they are not their thoughts, and just creating that space in between an automatic thought that pops into their head and the the usual reaction, which might be catastrophizing, you know, mind reading, fortune telling, all these cognitive distortions, or turning to food, or giving up, or quitting, or restricting them and depriving themselves, is the essence of what we help our clients with and why behavior change and weight loss in particular is much more difficult than just how much you eat and how much you exercise. So I'm interested, I find meditation hard, right? My background, like a friend of mine did a uh Vin Passner, and after Vin Passner, his coach was asked him to do off the mat meditation and just kind of notice what the background his background thoughts were. And he was explaining that his background thoughts were very critical and very negative. Um, and I remember thinking, wow, that's really interesting. That's not my background thoughts at all. What are my background thoughts? My background thoughts are what next? What next? What next? I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this. If I don't do this, this bad thing's gonna happen. If I don't do this, this bad thing's gonna happen. Some unknown, unconscious, made-up bad thing, and I don't even know what the bad thing is, but it's just bad. Um, so I find meditation really hard, but I just I still do it and I still practice, and I get massive benefit from recognizing those thoughts pop into my head, and that's had a huge impact on my nervous system and my life. Why might a person with ADHD find it even harder than than what I describe? What's what's the difference there?

Speaker 1 25:50

So, I mean ADHD has many kind of cognitive um varieties, I would say, but I think probably the the classic ADHD uh symptom is is the is the rapid kind of rapid fire thought process, right? So you're as you said, you and I are probably a little bit ADHD, and and I think I probably think quite similarly to you. I'm always thinking about the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, like what am I doing later, what am I doing after this? Um, and that's why meditation is so valuable, as you said, because it roots you in the it anchors you in the here and now. But I think for ADHD it's it's about slowing the thoughts down, it's about being able to sort of see where those uh sometimes you get a lot of impulsive behavior with ADHD. It's being able to have that distance to see where those impulsive behaviors originate from and realize that actually when an impulse arises, you don't have to act upon it, you just have to observe it and acknowledge it. And the act of observing and acknowledging will often make it go away. Um and one of the methods that I teach for ADHD is is is where you sort of um just take a moment to kind of, you know, as I said, you're not trying to stop thoughts, but as the thoughts emerge, you label them. So for example, if we're if we're doing an exercise um focusing on impulses, um, you know, in a 10-minute span, you'll get an impulse to get up, you'll get an impulse to check your phone, you'll get an impulse to go and get something to eat, you'll get an impulse to sort of stand up if you try to like me, and you know constantly needing to move around. And just observing that impulse and going, oh, impulse to stand up, impulse to eat something, impulse to check my phone, it makes it go away instantly. The naming and the acknowledgement just makes it go. And that's what your your brain is almost doing. It's almost like wanting some sort of action to take place as a result of the impulse because of that dopamine hit by that reward, but just acknowledging it is enough of a of a kind of a response to kind of uh do that as a proxy, as it were. And also when you realize that you're um doing it correctly, that also gives you a little bit of a dopamine hit. So you're almost like hacking the dopamine system to your advantage in that sense.

Movement Meditation And Micro Tools

Max Lowery 27:50

That's really interesting. Um, we use something similar with our clients when they do have a particularly critical inner voice, we actually get them to name the voice, like Karen, for example. Obviously, that's well-known uh term. Uh it's always a bit awkward though, because we have a lot of women in the program, and it's like, well, maybe there could be uh someone's inner voice is the same name as someone in the program. And yeah, that can be really powerful for helping them separate from the the voice and getting them to realize that actually it's it's not me, it's not true, it's just Karen. Uh, and that again creating that space. And with that space, I think there's um opportunity to make choices uh uh and decisions.

Speaker 1 28:35

I think just you know, I mentioned uh Eastern cultures earlier. In the West, we have a very individualistic culture where we believe that we are sort of these kind of um independent, uh sovereign kind of beings who are in complete control of our of our lives and destinies. In the Eastern tradition, they have a very different view, which is that actually we're just kind of the product of a larger cosmos of kind of um thinking beings and spirits that kind of pull you in different directions, and it makes it a lot easier for people in eastern traditions to be able to have that separation from their thoughts because they can go, oh, that thought wasn't me, that was the influence of some kind of external force.

Max Lowery 29:12

You know what I mean? That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before. We do um lean more into a kind of a more eastern approach with achieving weight loss, because I would say the the Western approach is very much uh hyper focus on the goal and the outcome and use discipline, willpower, and hard work to get to that outcome. And that might work, and clearly it has worked in in the West, um otherwise there wouldn't be as much progress as there is. But when it comes to your body and your mind and weight loss, I find that's a recipe for disaster. So we lean more into, I think it's a Teoist approach, which is create the right conditions for change to happen, for weight loss to happen. Um, so you know, the example is often used of a tree. You don't give a tree, you don't shout at a tree and force a tree to grow. You give it water, you give it um soil, you give it CO2, you give it sunlight, and it does its thing. You literally can't stop it. It grows, you know, 50 hundred meters tall. And I think it's exactly the same with weight loss. Um, you know, you want to create the right environment, the right conditions for weight loss to happen. So that's gonna be yes, it's what's going on with nutrition. How do you move your body? How do you think? Um, how do you manage your stress? And obviously, meditation would would um would come into this. So, yeah, it's I think the West has a lot right, but there's a lot we could learn uh from from the East, especially about this.

Speaker 1 30:32

Yeah, my view is in the West, we're very good at the material stuff, we're very good at the kind of making physical things in the physical world, but in the east they're very much better at the inner stuff, you know, the the working on themselves and and being sort of happy in in themselves. So I think there's lots to learn.

Max Lowery 30:48

So back to meditation. So what it sounds like you're saying is I mean, would it be fair to say that actually people with ADHD need to practice meditation even more than people who don't have ADHD?

Speaker 1 30:59

Um I think I I I just think everybody needs to do it really, and I think it would benefit everybody. I mean, it's gonna be harder, it it will be harder for people with ADHD to to do it, because as I said, everyone starts at a different point, but but really that kind of 10 minutes per day is what makes it ADHD friendly because you know, 10 minutes doesn't sound like a daunting amount of time. Um as I said, it can feel like a long time if you've got ADHD to just be sat in a single place doing a single thing. It can feel like a really long time, 10 minutes. But I think for people with ADHD it's it's a it well from in my personal experience, it has been a silver bullet that's helped me to become more functional, less annoying to be around. Um, you know, just generally a more kind of uh uh stable and rounded person. Um and so I would say that yeah, for people with ADHD, it is a really easy way to overcome a lot of the challenges without you know necessarily meaning I I'm I'm obviously not a doctor, so I'm not gonna make medical advice, but you know, I I have never had ADHD medication um because I feel like I've been able to manage it, and I think meditation has been a big part of the suite of you know regulation tools that I've been able to use to regulate my own condition.

Max Lowery 32:12

Yeah, it is interesting. Um, and I think this is exactly why my sister thinks I do, but I'm just high functioning because I've come to all these uh tools because I've realized I needed them for whatever reason. So yeah, it it's it's an interesting subject. So you've described one where one form of meditation which might be useful for for um for people with ADHD. Can we expand more there? Are there any other forms of meditation which are particularly good for people with ADHD? But also equally, are there any forms which um certain people with ADHD will find very difficult?

Speaker 1 32:46

So one of my favorite ones is movement meditation. Um, and lots of people think that meditation has this is another misconception, is that meditation has to be sat down cross-legged, you know, uh in some sort of shahla, you know, with your during the lotus position, right? It doesn't have to be at all, it can be moving. So walking meditation is one of my favorite things to do. If I need to clear my head, um I need a bit of inner peace as I'm walking to my office, you just sort of bring your attention inwards and you you shift your your focus to your body as it's moving. So you notice the movement of the ankles and the knees as you're walking, you notice the breath as you as you're moving. And that's a really, really powerful way to meditate because it it for ADHD people who you know do like to have a bit of um movement to boil off some energy, it kind of combines a couple of different aspects. Um, another really good one as well is is uh you know the importance if we're talking about the body of embodiment as well. So a lot of ADHD I've found in myself actually sort of starts in the body. So, like for example, a lot of my um inability to sit still comes as almost like a rising feeling that I get in my legs or or in my stomach that I have to sort of shake off. And if you meditate focusing on different aspects of the body, you probably had a body scan meditation. You really get to know the way that kind of different urges and sensations and feelings fit on the body and you can become aware of them. And just like I said before, with with the thoughts and the impulses, as soon as you're aware of them, when you notice them, you can name them and you can dissipate them. Um and that just helps you to regulate and that becomes like an automatic process as well. Um, there's also a lot of like mini day-to-day micro tools that you can use, so you don't even need to do kind of a 10-minute sit-down meditation or or even walking meditation. So there's a there's a technique um that the it's it's it's actually used by Japanese train drivers. People with ADHD tend to be quite um absent-minded when it comes to losing things and and you know, I'm terrible. Like if I'm not in my right frame of mind, I'll lose my car keys, my wallet, my phone. Um, so they have a practice where whenever they do something, they point to it and they say it out loud. So every time I come in the house, I put my key in the key part and I point to it and I say, keys in the key part. When I put my wallet down, I point to it and go, wallet in the drawer. And the act of acknowledging and the act of being mindful of that as a kind of physical process just helps you remember it and helps you kind of organize yourself in that way. So it goes back to that idea of just being aware of things, naming things, bringing things into your consciousness as a way of kind of self-regulation. That's also like a really good tool to use as well.

Max Lowery 35:20

That's a really interesting tool. Um, I really like the sound of that. That's actually not something I struggle with at all. I'm super organized like that, virtually never lose anything. You know, uh, phone's always in the right pocket, wallet's always in the left pocket, always in the same place.

Speaker 1 35:34

You've probably built that as a routine over time because you probably knew that you would be somebody that would lose your keys and wallet if they weren't in the right place, right?

Emotional Eating And Creating Space

Max Lowery 35:41

Maybe. Yeah. It's like I it's just a it's a routine before I leave the house. I'm like phone, wallet, keys. Um uh and you know, we've got specific places for specific things. Um so again, I think I want to tie this back into why we're talking about this on a weight loss podcast. Um one of the biggest issues our clients struggle with is emotional eating. They might not label it as an emotional eating, uh, but it is emotional eating. And because I think often clients think that emotional eating looks like it does in Bridget Jones's diary, where it's like a tub of ice cream wrapped in a duvet, you know, after a breakup. And our clients are often thinking, well, that's not not me. But in reality, uh what the how I see emotional eating is um snacking, picking, grazing when you're not truly physically hungry. It's boredom, it's procrastination, it's a reward at the end of the day. It's heading to the fridge when you know you're not hungry and your brain's saying, no, don't eat.

Speaker 1 36:39

Um and I've guilty of all of those things.

Max Lowery 36:43

Yeah. And I personally think that meditation, being able to sit with your uh with your feelings, with your emotions, with your thoughts, create space in between those thoughts, feelings and emotions, and your usual reactions is an essential way to actually potentially reduce the emotional eating and and therefore uh lose weight. And this is, you know, like like Will said, you don't have to become Buddha sitting on top of a mountain in the lotus position, floating off the off the ground. It's literally just creating space in your day, uh five, ten minutes, uh, but even little micro pauses whenever you can can make a huge, huge difference. What's your understanding on meditation and the nervous system, Will?

Speaker 1 37:33

So, well, I mean, this is this is what I was going back to about earlier about um neuroplasticity and kind of the structure of the brain, right? So um, as I'm sure you know, we have two kind of nervous system modes. We have the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system, so uh the rest and digest versus the um fight or flight. And when we're in our kind of um parasympathetic nervous system, um we're we're almost, you know, all of our uh bodily functions are switched on, you know, our our inflammatory markers are increased, our adrenaline levels are increased, um, and that's not the other way around. Yeah, it's not it's not good for the body, right, to have that kind of level of intensity all the time. Um but in order to kind of get through modern modern life and modern society, our our sympathetic nervous is going to switch on um a lot because you know, stress, deadlines, etc. But if you go back to to how animals behave, you know, obviously we evolved from from wild animals where you would have a very short period of frenetic activity where you're hunting or you're you know chasing down some prey, and then you would catch your prey, and then you would have a long period where you'd be in the rest and digest mode, um, and that would be kind of the normal balance. But in modern society, we're kind of in our high stress state for a long period of time because of work, because of finances, because of time, because of you know, I've got to be here and there and everywhere, um, and that is not good for the body. So meditation has been proven, as I said, there have been various studies into this to actually activate the parasympathetic nervous system to switch it on as a kind of a reset, um, which then can last, you know, that effect can last several hours for the rest of the day. And and when you approach life with that more um you know, uh calm and less kind of heightened approach, everything else just becomes easier, you know. All those little things that would have stressed you out are no longer causing such a problem. And as I said before as well, you know, the the dopamine system um has been shown to be able to research your meditation as well because dopamine levels are associated with with all those kind of heightening functions as well. So yeah, there's there's all kinds of research and it's it's ongoing as well. I mean, um this field has only been kind of looked into seriously in probably the last 15-20 years, um because obviously it was seen as quite mystical and woo-woo through meditating. But now the the scientist establishment has really got on board with it. Um and you know, even the NHS recommends um the the treatment through meditation as like a sort of um uh what do they call it, social prescribing uh now. So yeah, it's it's it's really turned a corner in terms of how neuroscience and and uh medical science has taken it as a as a serious uh alternative to to medication, really.

Max Lowery 40:18

Yeah, we lean heavily into what's called polyvagal theory, which actually kind of breaks down the nervous system into um even more categories. Um I've spoken about this on previous podcasts. So I've if you want to go into more detail about this, check out like two or three podcasts uh before this one. Um but uh polyvagal theory talks about um the ventral vagal state, which is essentially safe and connected, um, which is technically part of the parasympathetic. Um, but that's what our nervous systems are seeking to feel safe and connected. Then we have the fight or flight sympathetic response, which is usually our first stress response. That's what we're gonna go do first. It's gonna mobilize energy, it's gonna increase adrenaline, like you were talking about, uh, which is a completely natural response in terms of physical threat. Um, but then there is the um dorsal veil, which is a freeze and shutdown. And what and that's usually what happens when you spend too much time in fight or flight response, it's not working, and you have to go and basically shut down. Women on the whole tend to go into freeze and shutdown quicker uh than men, which is which is interesting. But essentially, you know, what we do with our clients is the first thing we do when they join the program is we get them to regulate their nervous systems. We do a lot of breath work and and we're starting to introduce uh meditation as well, um, because really this is the base, uh, because your your state, i.e. your nervous system state, precedes your story and creates your reality. You know, it doesn't matter how good your mindset is, if you are in fight or flight, that's gonna have an impact on your physiology, but also how you think and how you react and what you believe. And there's a really good example of this, which I'm gonna butcher, um, but which gives um an example of how your state um impacts your reality. So if we imagine two people who work, have the same boss in the same organization, receive the same text at the same time. The text says, We need to talk. Person number one thinks, I'm gonna get a promotion. This person is safe and connected and is thinking, yes, I'm gonna get that promotion I've been asking for. Person number two, who's dysregulated and has a history of um getting in trouble or uh issues with parents uh in in young age, thinks I'm gonna get fired. And this person starts to feel stressed, anxious, or and then starts to go in this vicious uh feedback loop of um what this is gonna happen and mind reading and fortune telling. So if we acknowledge it's the the same two people, same tech, same time, same boss, same situation, but two completely different responses, shows you how your state, your nervous system can have a huge, huge impact on every aspect of your life.

Speaker 1 43:06

That's really relevant to ADHD as well, because one of the sort of um characteristics of people with ADHD is that they have that reaction because they're used to, as children getting called off all the time because they are that annoying child and or being sort of sent out or excluded from games by their peers because they're too much, and they bring that baggage into their life, and that they have that reaction automatically in those types of situations. That's like a really relevant uh point to ADHD as well.

Max Lowery 43:33

If I'm honest, that's me. Um, I mean, it's it's it's I wouldn't necessarily think I've been fired, um, but I'm always thinking, I'm thinking, what have I done wrong? Because I did, I was always in the headmaster's office, I was always standing outside the the uh the classroom. Uh I got expelled from two very good schools, uh, I got into a lot of trouble. And even now it happened, a neighbor said, uh, can we talk? And immediately I feel this sense of panic and alarm, of and it's it's physiological and it's it's it's all these thoughts rushing through my head. But unfortunately, with awareness, I know almost certainly it's not anything I've done wrong because I don't get in trouble anymore most of the time. Um but yeah, it's it's fascinating. So your nervous system has a huge, huge impact on how you think, your physiology, your blood sugar regulation, your gut health, your digestion, your fat uh release or fat storage. And meditation is a key tool to help regulate uh your nervous system.

Speaker 1 44:33

100%. Yeah, and it and it acts as a like I said, it's a reset button as well. Once you can train yourself to enter that that state of um of kind of that meditative uh dis not not quite dissociation, but detachment from your thoughts. When you're in that that mode, it's like a reset for the The whole system, um, which then, as I said, research has shown lasts several hours um after that point, regardless of what happens to you after that.

Max Lowery 45:00

I'm gonna add uh another point here. So I listened to a podcast, I can't I can never remember his name, but I know his kind of like brand is called the Healthy Gamer. Have you heard of him? I think he's called the Healthy Gamer. He's a he's he's basically he's an Indian guy, he's a Harvard um Western psychiatrist, but he's also been a monk. So he kind of bridges uh the gap between the Eastern and the West philosophy. He's I really don't like his branding. Obviously, he's he's obviously very much directed at a particular audience, but he has a great podcast and some very interesting insights. I was listening to um the podcast and um it kind of increased the the the title of the podcast was um the link between ADHD and obesity. And so he was basically explaining the mechanics of um people with ADHD and how essentially it's to do with dopamine, which is a reward neurotransmitter. And so someone with ADHD might have a higher craving for dopamine, um, but then equally a blunted response when they um when so in the in in in the sake of like food, for example, if you've been wired to seek uh dopamine from food, you're gonna have a higher craving for the cookie, and you're gonna need more of the cookie in order to scratch the itch and get what you want. And when you pair this with negative thoughts and emotions, that can actually then um make it worse. So I think this awareness is really important because if you don't have that, and you know, you can see this probably with alcohol, you can see with this with drugs. I definitely was someone who always always needed more to get to get what I wanted from drugs or alcohol. I've been quite open with this on the podcast before. Um, it was never just like you know, a few drinks, it would always be getting as smashed as I could and doing as many drugs as I could. And, you know, without that awareness, I think you can just head off in this cycle of guilt and blame, labeling yourselves as greedy and lazy and having no control. Well, in actual fact, if you know that you do have ADHD and there are things that you can do to counteract this, you can potentially uh improve the situation.

Speaker 1 47:09

Yeah, I mean, as I said, uh I I I was in many ways the same a dopamine addict, essentially, is what an ADHD person is. It's just they're seeking novelty, they're seeking uh stimulation all the time when actually day-to-day life can't be constant stimulation, it has to be you know being comfortable in that kind of neutral uh gear as well.

Takeaway Plus Where To Find Will

Max Lowery 47:30

Yeah, it's when it's it's it's still the same now. I don't just get into hiking, I go and climb the matter horn and do multi-pitch, you know, serious climbs hanging off a cliff. Um, I it's always just not not enough. I just need to take it to that next level. Um, at least it's you could argue that climbing mountains is more dangerous than taking drugs and alcohol, but you know, that's that's a conversation for a different maybe alcohol, maybe not drugs. Yeah. Um so yeah, thanks so much for chatting today, Will. Um, if you could have listeners who think they might have ADHD who are listening to this, what's one thing you want them to take away from this conversation?

Speaker 1 48:10

Uh meditation doesn't have to be hard, it can be easy, it can be short, it can be um very kind of targeted. Um and yeah, if you if you want to know more, feel free to check out my course because I teach you those 10-minute methods and those little micro tools to use in your daily life um in a very kind of digestible way um to help you kind of build those those skills. And and like I said, it changed my life and it made me a much more less annoying person to be around. Um, it made me much more able to kind of um understand my own mind and and everything else. So, yeah, just make sure you you try, you know, don't don't be your worst enemy, be your best supporter, right? Be proud of yourself for trying something. Um don't be hard on yourself, don't expect perfection straight away. It's about the process as opposed to the destination.

Max Lowery 49:01

Great advice. Thanks so much for sharing. And yeah, you mentioned one way people can get in contact with you. If people do want to find more about you, Will, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 1 49:09

Uh you can go to my website, which is www.mindbeyondmatter, with a hyphen between each word. So mind hyphen beyond hyphen matter.com. And you can find information about uh my ADHD course there, which is the Attention Academy. Um and you know, if you're interested in meditation coaching, uh you can sign up for a free 15-minute consultation with me there as well. Um and if you're interested in exploring the kind of more mystical side of meditation, meditation, even I've got uh another course there called Mind or Matter, which is which is interesting as well. So yeah, check it out.

Max Lowery 49:43

Yeah, I'll link everything um beneath this episode. But yeah, thanks again, Will. Uh it was an interesting conversation and uh yeah, see you soon. Great, thank you. Cheers, Max.