Spicy Midlife Women: Real Talk, Raw Truth, and Bold Moves for Women Over 40
Spicy Midlife Women is the ultimate podcast for women over 40 who are rewriting the rules of midlife, breaking free from relationship drama, and leaving toxic patterns behind.
It’s all about embracing authenticity, building meaningful connections, and living unapologetically through candid conversations, hard-earned wisdom, and raw truth.
Hosted by Jules and Michele, two midlife women with real stories and no-BS advice, the Spicy MidLife Women Podcast will guide you in redefining relationships, breaking free from what's holding you back, and reclaiming your power—one episode at a time!
Prepare to get clear on what you really want in your relationships—whether it’s romance, family, or friendships, let go of past baggage and open yourself up to the possibility of fresh, exciting connections.
You’ll also gain the wisdom and confidence to approach dating and relationships with confidence and zero judgment, and feel empowered to ditch outdated expectations, creating a life that truly feels good on your own terms.
Plus, find a supportive sisterhood along the way—because you don’t have to do this alone!
Spicy Midlife Women: Real Talk, Raw Truth, and Bold Moves for Women Over 40
6. Midlife, Monogamy Options, and Ethical Non-Monogamy with Lauren Hayes
In this episode, Jules and Michele sit down with relationship coach Lauren Hayes to explore the world of ethical non-monogamy—sexuality, clarity, and companionship beyond monogamy. Lauren pulls back the curtain on how she and her husband transitioned into the lifestyle, emphasizing communication, emotional maturity, and the theme that “pleasure is a practice.” This spicy chat dives into handling jealousy, setting boundaries, preserving emotional sovereignty, and why many enter non-monogamy not to repair, but to enhance an already strong connection.
Questions Answered in This Episode:
- What is ethical non-monogamy (ENM), and how does it differ from swinging or polyamory?
- How did Lauren and her husband begin exploring ENM, and what prompted the shift?
- What groundwork—like communication and trust—is essential before starting this journey?
- How do couples handle jealousy and emotional complexity along the way?
- What’s the difference between “full swap” and “soft swap,” and how do health and safety factor in?
- How do emotional sovereignty and self-awareness support healthy non-monogamous relationships?
- What role do agreements, boundaries, and ongoing consent play in navigating ENM successfully?
- How do families, social circles, and stigma impact those who enter the lifestyle?
- Why do many spouses actually grow closer and feel more empowered through non-monogamy?
- How does viewing pleasure as a practice apply not only to sex, but to life and midlife well-being?
Are you ready to take your "spiciness" to the next level?!
Connect with Julee & Michele on Instagram @spicy_midlife_women and send a DM about what resonated most during this episode so they can encourage you with steps forward in your own life.
Hey, hey everyone. This is Jules and Michelle here, two spicy midlife women sharing our real life stories and having no BS conversations with all of you, right, Michelle?
Speaker 2:That is right. We're here to help you, midlife women, redefine relationships, ditch toxic cycles and reclaim your power, one episode at a time and we have a treat for you today.
Speaker 1:There is an ethical non-monogamy coach. Her name is Lauren Hayes and we saved this interview especially for you because we felt like this is a great topic Super spicy, super spicy, yeah and we hope you enjoy. Today we have a very special guest, lauren Hayes, on with us, and Lauren is an ethical non-monogamous coach and she has. I have a little snippet here. I want to make sure I get it all, so I'm going to read it. Okay, yeah, make sure I get it all right. Lauren's a relationship coach specializing in supporting ethically non-monogamous couples, also known as E&M, including swingers and the E&M Curious. She's trained in both life and relationship coaching. She assists couples in navigating and engaging in the swinging and non-monogamous lifestyle community in the healthiest ways. She brings personal experience to her coaching, having been married for 19 plus years and E&M Swinger for the last six years five or six years, I guess now. So, anyway, welcome and thank you so much for being here with us today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me, and yeah, I guess now. So anyway, welcome and thank you so much for being here with us today. Yeah, thanks for having me, and yeah. I realized I didn't update my website. I've married 20 years now and we've been swinging for six.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, okay, so you had just had an anniversary, huh, yeah, yeah. So that was some of the things that we were talking about, you know, being in a monogamous relationship to start with, and then the transition that you both made into the lifestyle that you now are practicing, and just we're so curious about just how those things started for you and your husband. So if you want to just get started with that and then we can get into some of the other questions, maybe that we're running across Sure yeah. I'm very curious.
Speaker 2:We need to dive in and I want to know how this like transitioned for you. Yeah yeah. So it's kind of a two-part story and you're you'll know some of this because you read the book. But but the first part was just that there was a friend of a friend, a guy friend that kept and I kept meeting him at parties and stuff and we just always really connected. And he said one time he'd like to get to know me better and I was like me too. So we went out for coffee and I was married.
Speaker 2:My husband was a little curious about why I was going, but I've always had guy friends so I really didn't even think twice about it. And then at that coffee he asked me if we had read a book called Sex at Dawn, which is by Chris Ryan. Christopher Ryan and it's a scientific book that kind of just questions the narrative that our culture has on monogamy. It came out that he and his partner were polyamorous and he was hoping or asking if my husband and I were polyamorous. And he was hoping or asking if my husband and I were polyamorous because he wanted to really get me to know me better. So I said no, you know we're not, and but I am fascinated Like tell me everything. Like I just found that kind of like you guys are today. I was just very curious.
Speaker 2:So we talked for a long time about it. I went home, told my husband you know what the thing was, and he was not surprised that he was actually hitting on me. And also he was so curious he was like, okay, tell me everything. So we, you know, neither one of us were interested in doing it at that time or in polyamory, but it was just fascinating to both of us. The other thing that I did is, for about a week or two, this excitement of having somebody else really hit on me like that and show interest in me Great sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had. Yeah, so we always had great sex and for like two weeks it was just kind of off the charts, like there was just like a little extra energy in there, so. But we had small children at the time. You know, we were in that phase we're just kind of tired and didn't have enough time for each other, let alone anyone else. So then fast forward, maybe six or seven years, I'm not exactly sure about that.
Speaker 2:But then my husband just randomly brought up one night. I was walking through the bedroom. He's like, you know, I feel like there's something more. And somehow I knew he was talking about our relationship and my heart started beating, you know, very fast. And I said so you want a girlfriend? And he said no, I don't think I want a girlfriend. I just I do feel like there's something else out there. And I was like I don't know what you're saying to me right now. Yeah, it's mean. And he said I don't know. And actually what I know now is that was a kind of good that he didn't know what it meant. He can get into that in a little bit, but it became kind of an exploration.
Speaker 2:Of course, a lot of stuff came up for me like are we not happy? Like I thought we were happy, like this is really confusing to me. And you know, am I not enough? Is this something? I'm not fulfilling my, you know, this relationship? And it was just a lot of reassurance that those were not the cases.
Speaker 2:Ands one you find a lot of things that's like trying to fix your relationship or like if you're, you know, getting the spark back, and I was like I feel like we have a lot of sparks, so this is not feeling like it's fitting. And the other thing that will come up is like swinger resorts, lifestyle resorts and things like that. And so I took that back to him and I said, is this what we're talking about? And he's, you know, he was still like I don't know, like maybe. And then eventually we found a book called the Ethical Slut understanding ethical non-monogamy, all the different ways that it can be practiced, how one goes about it, how you know the things that are important to address in a relationship, and all the things, and that just kind of became our guidebook for a little bit.
Speaker 1:The.
Speaker 2:Ethical Slut. Is that what you said?
Speaker 1:Okay, that's the name of the book. So you were talking let's go back for a second to that walk through the bedroom. When he says I think there's more out there that was one of the that I had taken is like you said. Your heart started to pitter patter and all of a sudden you're like what? What does he mean? What is he talking about? Was that his feeling when you had come home and told him about the guy that was hitting on you? Was he jealous about that? Or was he feeling like? You know, that's typical, what you would find right, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I didn't sense that he was jealous about the first meeting. I don't think it was at all the same. I mean, if I had come home and said, hey, this guy told me about polyamory and hey, I'm all over it, yeah, that might have been a different thing, but we were both on the same page around like this is fascinating, but not something we're interested in.
Speaker 1:Okay okay, I was just curious about that. So so going on into yeah, going on into it. I was looking through your book and like the lesson the first one that you had referred to was creating your own damn life and really defining what it is you want. And I know a lot of people don't really walk into relationships, monogamous or otherwise, talking about that to the degree that you think you would need to have a really strong foundation of a relationship. So what are you referencing there when you were talking about that?
Speaker 2:there when you were talking about that, yeah, so I think it's very interesting because once you create something that is outside of the culture's norms, what I've really recognized is we don't ever choose monogamy, we just do it because that's all that we know. It's all that we've been taught. Generally speaking, people have been know about other things, but it's not a conscious choice by any means for most people. And the other thing that I say about that is that we don't even do monogamy very well. You know, our divorce rates are quite high. I think a lot of people are in unhappy relationships and it's because we are fed a lot of messages about what monogamy is meant to be or should be, but that is not really based in reality.
Speaker 2:And what I think is interesting and when I was doing my relationship coaching training, which is Gottman, you know there are so many very short, to the point books, literally how to do marriage. Well, you know they're one of their most famous books, like the seven principles on how to make a marriage work, and these are not difficult. You know premises. If I had to summarize that book, I would say be kind and generous to your partner most of the time and when you're not apologize. It's that simple right, but for some reason it's hard for us humans to do. But the point is that most people don't ever even read that book. You know, we just kind of go into monogamy with these expectations that, like you said, we never talk about. So expectations are let down and it doesn't really work out the way that the movies have taught us that it might. The rom-coms.
Speaker 1:The rom-coms are not accurate Right. And.
Speaker 2:I think when you step out of that and we were creating and that thing that's beautiful about ethical non-monogamy is as soon as you're stepping out of, or even if you're consciously choosing monogamy. And the one thing I always want to insert here is I am not a person that thinks that everybody should be ethically non-monogamous. You know that I don't think it's better than monogamy, but what I do think is that, whatever path you choose, it's about creating the relationship that you and your partner are dreaming about together. It can include a little bit of non-monogamy, it can be totally monogamous, it can be all the things. I think people have this very black and white view of monogamy and non-monogamy. There's a lot of misconception about non-monogamy so people don't even consider it. But you know, if you have an occasional threesome or have some sexual Non-monogamy or have some sexual Non-monogamy, yeah, I mean technically it is, but you don't have to declare yourself non-monogamous.
Speaker 2:Like there's sexual adventure and then there's like how you identify as a couple, and there's it gets very complicated and also it's just beautiful because you can create whatever you want.
Speaker 1:It seems like your communication would have to be the most stellar thing ever.
Speaker 1:You know I mean Off have to be the most stellar thing ever, you know, I mean the charts, yeah, off the well, and so that's where people, I think, have difficulty, just in general, is being able to communicate their feelings, being able to communicate what they want, being able to communicate what they don't want, and so it feels like the groundwork for some of these things might have to be at just a much higher level not emotional maturity, whatever it is in order for it even to be an option that would be successful. That's what I kind of got from it.
Speaker 2:Yes, and those are literally some of the titles of the other chapters about these aspects of communication. And I think one of the misconceptions that I've sort of been noodling with lately around monogamy is I think there's this idea that once we get into this monogamous relationship, it's our job to make our partner comfortable and not hurt their feelings ever. I mean not that we ever intentionally want to hurt their feelings, but to like tiptoe around and make sure we never make them uncomfortable or think, you know, we can't want something. We feel like we can't want something because it might make them feel some certain way. And I think that's the first like. When I go back to that conversation that my husband and I had, I'm like that was so brave of him to even say that because I could have freaked out.
Speaker 2:Well, I did freak out a little bit, but you know I could have freaked out more. I do have people approach me and say, you know, I could never even bring this up with my partner because I feel like they would break up with me. And I'm point. I think we should be able to talk to our partners about stuff that we're curious about.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, Well, truthfully, yeah, that's absolutely right. And going back to the communication I mean I think about I was married, michelle was married. We've both been married. We were married for very long periods of time. I can't even imagine ever having a conversation like that with my husband at the time. He would have flipped a lid, absolutely. You know, flipped a lid, just it would have not been something that he would even have wanted to have a conversation about, not that.
Speaker 1:I did at the time? I wouldn't. I didn't know anything about this stuff at the time. But you know, being married that long and really not, I mean obviously we weren't in a good place because we got divorced. But it's very obvious that the communication and level of respect that you have for each other has to be just completely different than what you might see in you know, just a regular relationship for somebody that's been around for 30 years, that they kind of are roommates. You know they're just hanging out together but they're not even having sex together anymore you know, yeah, Well, and I you know, Esther Pearl always talks about that too.
Speaker 2:the way you keep a relationship vital is by doing new things that are also a little risky and dangerous. So, it happens to be that swinging and non-monogamy can kind of check that box, but it is a practice to keep finding things to do together that do check that box of you know, I don't know. I always say love rock climbing or sailing or something that's like really challenging that neither one of you know how to do. That feels like kind of equivalent to jumping well and you're doing it together.
Speaker 1:So you're and you're doing it together. Yeah, yes're, you're doing it together. Yeah, yes, did you have a question, michelle? I can tell I have lots of questions but I'm right now.
Speaker 2:I just I kind of want to get through some of this stuff from your book, lesson three, for example, and you talk about emotional sovereignty. Tell us a little bit about that. Oh, and all these lessons, by the way, are things that I personally have looked right there is never any judgment on. I mean, I have been a very codependent partner. I have been all of these things, yeah. But emotional sovereignty is best explained with an example. So instead of the saying to your partner you made me feel jealous last night when you spoke with that woman. I would say I'm feeling really jealous after seeing you speak with that woman last night. Now it seems like a subtle shift. But in the first example you are immediately blaming your partner for making you feel a certain way which, by the way, is actually kind of an impossibility.
Speaker 2:No one can make you feel any particular way.
Speaker 1:I think we can agree on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The second one by saying I feel jealous, it just creates a little space of that. They can actually ask like oh why? Why do you feel jealous? Why did that make you feel jealous when it hasn't made you feel jealous in the past? There's like just this tiny bit of space for them to not be on the defensive and to actually be curious about why you're feeling that way, and so it is about owning your emotions and deciding what you want to do with them.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes you're like okay that I was. Just I drank too much last night. That's silly, that's not even something we need to talk about. That might be something you want to bring up with your partner.
Speaker 2:That might be, something you want to just talk through with your best friend or your therapist or whatever. It's yours to own. However, what I don't want people to interpret it as is you're on your own with that emotion, because you actually do want to keep sharing these things with your partner, because that's the whole point of being in partnership is supporting each other through your hard emotions. And there might be something that comes out of that conversation. So we talk a lot about agreements and boundaries and ethical non-monogamy. You know, out of those conversations it might be something like I, you know, at least temporarily, can we set up this boundary or whatever you decide together as a couple to marriage through that emotion of the day, and it doesn't mean you're on your own to do it. You are sharing, but it doesn't mean you're on your own to do it.
Speaker 2:You are sharing, but it is yours to own. It's also actually yours to fix. So if there is something to fix, it's yours to either ask for what you need or find you know your path for fixing it, like I said, through a therapist or whatever. I think that's. Another misconception in monogamy is that now I've shared my emotion with you, you have, you're kind of responsible for it now.
Speaker 1:First, I might blame you for it.
Speaker 2:Second, you need to help me fix that. Well, I'm here to support you, I want to support you, and if you can articulate to me what you need, that's even easier. That's always the holy grail when we can articulate to our partners what we need, that's the best. Sometimes we don't know what we need, but that's the way you want to think about this. Emotional sovereignty is like these are my emotions and I'm going to figure out what to do with them, including who to share it with.
Speaker 1:In that particular chapter, you had told a story about. You use the term emotional monogamy, so non-monogamy but emotional monogamy. So that was the agreement that you essentially with your husband. You could maybe tell the story or maybe, you know, paraphrase the story, but he had met someone who you really enjoyed as well, but who he fell in love with. See, that would be like the. That would be the thing that I would be so afraid of happening in that particular circumstance, because that's not what the agreement was.
Speaker 1:So how do you manage through that? Because that's got to be so hard on you. It's got to create a lot of pain. That's pretty much the worst.
Speaker 2:That's the biggest fear that most people come into ethical non-law. Ethical non law. Now I did forget to define a few things in the beginning. So ethical non-monogamy is a very wide umbrella term. Then underneath that you have polyamorous people who are in it for falling in love and having multiple committed relationships. Then on the other end sort of is swinging, which is more sexual adventure and friendship and you're not in it so much for emotional commitment. Then there's everything in between, because like I said people are.
Speaker 2:You know, there's kind of switching back and forth. You know where you have polyamorous people that swing together or swingers that become polyamorous, all kinds of things, but within that you do have these agreements. Now there are probably some and these are the most awesome conversations to have with your partner is some underlying beliefs around relationship and emotions and all these things. So I personally believe that we do have some control over who we fall in love with.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Some people believe you don't have control over that. You know, I'm like we interact with people every day at work, schools, different places, where we play different roles with people, and we have different emotional boundaries for all of them, sure, so it's just a practice within this world to kind of keep up those same boundaries. Does it take an emotionally mature person to do so? Yes, it does. There is nothing about non-monogamy that doesn't require a lot of emotional maturity, and that's one big reason I don't recommend it for everyone. You know, a I don't think everyone's interested in it, and B I don't think everyone's cut out for it, and I think that's great when people recognize that they're probably not cut out for it, and that was very difficult Now, I think. And when you're making agreements like this, things can get a little tricky, and this is what I help clients with all the time is creating agreements and making sure we don't use any vague language. So, like you know, we're not going to have feelings for other people.
Speaker 1:Well, I thought what does that?
Speaker 2:mean yeah, what does that mean?
Speaker 1:right, I mean you have feelings you have, you're turned on by that person, yeah, and you don't have like intellectual stimulation necessarily in the same way that you would be from your partner.
Speaker 2:I mean intellectual, sure, and here's the thing about. I think the biggest learning probably for me, and where some of the biggest misunderstandings come from, is that non-monogamy operates in a space that our monogamous culture has taught us does not exist. Right, so we can operate, and polyamorous are really kind of more overlapping with monogamy in this sense, because, you know, over here on the swinging end, we're like no, you can have sex with people, you can have deep friendships with people and not necessarily fall in love with them. Well, you could love them as a friend, you love them as a friend, you love them as a friend and not necessarily fall in love with them. The right time and place for that.
Speaker 2:And, of course, like that's a very complicated conversation around sexuality. But there is that level like, yes, there is an understanding that there can be casual sex. So I would say that in this world, especially in the swinging world, we're all connecting, we're having great connection, emotional connection, intellectual connection, sexual connection but we're not falling in love with every single person that we're doing this with. You know what I'm saying. And so that is confusing for people, because the rom-coms tell us that actually you're going to fall in love with the person and you're going to want to spend the rest of your life with them and we're just like it's just not true, like this is an entire community of people that operate in this space. Okay, but to go back to your question, with the way it happened with my husband, and that's actually chapter four and the chap, but the title of chapter four is my favorite, which is love your partner but love yourself a little bit more yes, I almost feel like that should be your tattoo.
Speaker 1:I choose me. Is that what you ended up getting? Yeah, I choose me as my tattoo.
Speaker 2:On your rose. Yeah yeah, so it's a rosebud branch and then I choose me is like a little. It looks kind of like another branch and it's written backwards so that I see it in the mirror.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Because, like I mentioned, I had a lot of codependent tendencies in my relationship in the sense that, like I, was always putting his feelings before mine.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so when he did, you know we walked a path together with this friend that they ended up falling in love with each other, and it was. And I'm not ever going to say that non-monogamy is not complicated. Oh no, it is complicated, it's very complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely, and so some things you are experimenting with a little bit, and I didn't know until we got to a certain phase that like, actually, this is not working for me and I tried to make it work for me and it just didn't. I couldn't get there, and yeah, then it becomes a conversation. It's like this is what I'm talking about the emotional maturity. It's like maybe you should go be with her or maybe you know, there's like all these that you decide kind of at, not kind of you decide as a couple. It's just like the. It's the pinnacle of these emotionally mature conversations, right, and really deciding what you want. Because I was also like there are, we are non-monogamous, there are many options here, like we don't have to continue on in this marriage the way that we have if this is really important to you, and so those conversations ultimately again will bring you back closer together, because we did choose to stay together and you know, I think what the other thing is that's painful when we hear about some of these situations is somebody gets hurt.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that's always hard to stomach. But what I also say is that non-monogamous do not have a patent and hurt feelings.
Speaker 1:It happens all the time Like resentment about the I guess breaking the agreement.
Speaker 2:I was assuming that was an agreement. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And not harboring that and keeping that. You know, while you're trying to work through all of this, that's in my head. I'd be like I would feel so hurt and resentful. I think that it would be really hard for me to get past some of those. That's just me, I mean. That's all I'm thinking. Yeah, and I do well.
Speaker 2:I do mention this in the book too, and I think that in some ways it can mirror having an affair, except the thing that's not. There is betrayal and lying, so there might be some similar hurt feelings, but I think that is a very important piece that allows for, I mean, even people can heal, even through the betrayal and lying. But we didn't have that aspect at all, like we were all upfront about all of our feelings all the time, so it wasn't. I think that made it easier.
Speaker 1:Well, it gives you a premise certainly to be able to speak about how you're feeling about it. I mean, you had mentioned that you were trying to make it work and that's probably your codependent side, saying I really want him to be happy.
Speaker 1:That's one thing that I was picking up in the book. I'm just like, wow, she's really. She's a good woman, she wants to be happy, she's like I was trying to figure this all out about, so her husband can be happy, and just you know, obviously you got to the point where you're like this isn't working and I tried, but it's not working. So you gave it the old college try. I guess is what I'm saying. Realize that it's not how you had envisioned things to be, and so you guys could adjust from that. And it sounds like it made you stronger, based on what I was reading. It made you guys have a much stronger bond than you already had.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And you know we had been married, let's say a few years ago, so I don't know 17 years or something married let's say a few years ago, so I don't know 17 years or something. And sometimes I think and I'm not suggesting that something so negative has to happen but sometimes a little rupture or a little earthquake to the foundation of a relationship and Esther Perl will talk about that a lot too, can benefit the relationship as well, because, as you guys know, being in long-term majors, we change as people all the time and so this relationship has to like kind of keep up, and so sometimes that readjustment is just a little more painful than other times. And that was a big thing for me is I was very clear that he never intended to that to hurt me. You know he's and he wasn't lying and it was none of those things.
Speaker 1:and so it was. That was what you expected, so it's right. I actually got a lot out of reading that section, because that's pretty raw for you to be able to write about it too, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, of course I sat down to write that book and I was like I'm not writing about that really. That's because I was like that's gonna be too much for people. That's everyone's worst fear. I'm not writing about that Really, that's because I was like that's going to be too much for people. That's everyone's worst fear. I can't talk about that. But then I sat down and, you know, wrote that Because it's what's on people's minds.
Speaker 1:They're always like, well, what happens if this happens, you know? So that's exactly what was on my mind and you spoke about it. So that was helpful, you know, to kind of get a better understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, no, I just it was bringing me back to the emotional sovereignty too. There's so many situations, I'm sure, where it causes you to look within. And what are what? Why is this? Why am I feeling this way? You know it's. It brings a lot of light and self-reflection. I would imagine, yes, in a lot of those situations.
Speaker 1:self-reflection, I would imagine. Yes, so much In a lot of those situations yeah, so much.
Speaker 2:That's why one of the other chapters I say self-awareness is the most important trait to really have going into this, because that piece of like, recognizing even how I feel, being able to question how and why I feel that way and you know, of course I'm a coach and also personal development and personal growth has been like my hobby my whole entire adult life. So that also for me was like, even more so like, why can't I get okay with this? I coach other people around this and like and like. You know, as I said in the book, there's an entire community of polyamorous people that do this all the time, like, and I understand the dynamics, so why can't I? Now I have lots of reasons now you know, looking back in hindsight, why I couldn't, but at the time it was just that struggle of not. Yeah, I'm wanting everyone to be happy. That was probably it.
Speaker 1:It is absolutely yeah. So we know that this is kind of an underground lifestyle because it's not necessarily well accepted or even a lot of people don't really know about it. I mean, my only exposure has been learning some things through, you know, in preparation for the podcast, reading your book and having been approached by people and I was just like wow, okay, I didn't know what, I had no idea what to do, what to say. I was like it was just, you know, like New Year's Eve in Scottsdale, arizona, and I was approached by the woman, just chitty chat. She was very nice, we, we were just chatting away and the guy I was with in a relationship.
Speaker 1:He said I think they're swingers. And I'm like, really, because the guy was talking to him and as it turns out they were and honestly, my guy would have been down for it, because he just would have been down for it. Probably he never said that, but we know him, he would have definitely been down for it. But that's really my only exposure. You just don't hear anything about it and there's a lot of stigma there. There was a michelle when I were talking about like these things about the pineapple being upside down and the white rocks and those stories, or are those really things?
Speaker 2:white rocks in the in front of your house? The upside down pineapple? Is that? The upside down pineapple is a bit of a thing, is it the white rocks? I would say less so. There's certain things, and you'll hear something about black rings too, but those are not. They're not. What would I say about those? Those are not. You can't count on those to be true okay if you saw someone with an upside down pineapple on their front door, you could count on those to be true.
Speaker 1:Okay, if you saw someone with an upside down pineapple on their front door, you could count on that to be sure, you know, I've always thought that's like a Southern thing, Like I remember, like it's like the pineapple goes upside down when someone has a long-term gift. It's supposed to be like hospitality or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And I think pineapples have become so, so popular. So people would ask me if I just saw pineapples you know they were a lot of pineapple Like no, that's also not. But if you saw like an upside down one, I would say there's a good chance, yeah.
Speaker 1:I hear that on cruise ships a lot.
Speaker 2:I don't know we wear clothes with upside down pineapples on them and all kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love it. Okay, but you're right, it is underground.
Speaker 2:It is underground and it is interesting that in this day and age well, maybe not in this political climate, but in general of a lot of acceptance around, a lot of sexual preferences and different things and sexual freedom, that we are still very underground. I feel like we are sort of where the gay community was like five or ten years ago. We don't tell people. And really the only reason we don't is because of all the misconceptions.
Speaker 2:If people really understood it because that's almost every podcast I go on, everybody I talk to about this. They're like this is so different than I ever would have imagined, and actually that's even what people say when they get into it is they're like oh my gosh, this is so different than I imagined. Because people do come especially on the swinging end of things for the sexual adventure or sexual part of it, but almost everyone stays for the community because it's just a very fun, open-minded group of people to hang out with.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's very different than most people think any kind of structured, planned events like social events and gatherings. Oh yeah, like I mean, I don't know if the a&m convention, I don't know well, it's a facebook groups right.
Speaker 2:Well, there are closed facebook groups and stuff like that. There are actually swinger dating sites there. We call them hotel takeovers, kind of what you're talking about. Sometimes an event will take over most of a hotel and there is one event actually it happens every year that we call the Swinger Convention because it has a very strong educational component, and I go and do workshops and stuff like that at it every year. So it's just like everything else. You know when your kid starts doing a sport that you like don't know a lot about, and then you realize like, wow, there's a whole world around this including like a world cup of the sport, like who knows?
Speaker 2:It's kind of like that, like, once you find out about it, it's just like oh, it is prevalent, and the thing that we can fall into is it becomes very normal for us and we forget how not normal and how not accepted it is outside of our world, and so we talk about that challenge.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I find that friendships and the people that you were spending time with family friends, that they have accepted that lifestyle with you. Like I know you had to talk to your kids about it when they were teenagers, right, and finally decided to share that with them and they were kind of like, well, why didn't you tell us? But what about, like your family here? Did you talk to them about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my parents don't know, my brother doesn't know, my sister knows, most of our friends know and you know, in some ways it becomes important to tell people at some point only because, like your friendships suffer Right Things that you can't tell. Now there are friends of different levels of interest. Like, some friends want to know everything, some friends you can talk about it again and all that's fine, as long as you don't have to hide that part of yourself on people. That's the important piece. And so you know, like my parents I don't know per se that relationship suffers for that reason and so it just becomes a case by case for everyone and because of what I do, for a career and writing a book and all the things, that's when we decided to tell our children for a career and writing a book and all the things. That's when we decided to tell our children. But you know, and what my kids said was you know, kids are our generation, we don't really care about stuff like that.
Speaker 2:That was great. I said I know, but the parents of the kids of your generation still do, and so that's really clear. I'm like this is not a secret and we're not ashamed, because I didn't want them to feel like we're like telling them something that they had to hide.
Speaker 1:I said but also, you want to be thoughtful about who you tell yeah, I would think so, because with them too, if their parents, their friends' parents, are judgmental about it, that could impact the friendships that they have with those kids and everything too. So, yeah, there's a lot of dynamics that kind of fall into that.
Speaker 2:And I would say that's a very primary reason a lot of people don't that keep it so closeted is everyone's worried about the effect on the children. You know, if the parents find out and then they don't let our kids hang out or whatever, which that's an insane concept, that in this very consenting world that we live in, that people would be like you can't hang out with those people with those kids, because a lot of them going back to the misconceptions or their own perceived.
Speaker 1:You know how they, what their values are, what they were taught. You know when they were about monogamy or women scantily dressed being sluts. You know it goes back to all of that because, yeah, like when I was looking, I would love for you to share a little bit about like an example of what a party is like when you walk in. Because I'm thinking when you walk in, I just picture some dark room with music and like velvet drapes everywhere. I have no why, but that's what I kind of picture and people dancing and I mean I don't know if there is there there alcohol there or, you know, are there separate rooms people can go in? I just really have no concept of what it even, what it's even like. Or does everybody sit around and hang out in the middle of the? You know, just like at a nightclub.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's like a nightclub. So there, first of all, every club is a little different so I can't speak too much to everything. But I would say in general, if we talk about a swingers club in general and a swingers club where people can have sex because there are some swingers clubs where people cannot have, there isn't areas to play Play is the word for sex it's just like a meet and greet kind of club. In fact we took our vanilla fun to one once and he was like this is so fun, like it's just like any other club, but it's like more open-minded. Of course people are a little more scantily dressed but, like I said, it's just it's in a very open-minded fun crowd. There generally is alcohol. A lot of the clubs around the country you have to bring your own because they operate as private memberships and private clubs.
Speaker 2:That's how they operate. And then so there's usually kind of like a front of the house where there's a dance, sometimes food, people are mingling, and then what I call back of the house, which is, once you go back there, that's where the playrooms are. There are private playrooms, public playrooms, big playrooms, and then there's usually some way to tell, like, if you want people, if you want people to watch you, you can like leave the curtain or the door open.
Speaker 2:If you don't want people to watch you. You can close that Because, like that's another thing, like I was talking about earlier, some people go to these clubs. They're not playing with other couples or they're just playing themselves. Maybe they want to be watched, maybe they just want to watch others and they like the sexy vibe. So now are they non-monogamous?
Speaker 2:No they're just. You know, this is like what I'm saying. We think of this as being very black and white, but it's not, and so these places are set up for, you know. So people can do what they please. And you use the term vanilla. I know somebody, too, that is in part of this lifestyle and she told me about that term. So when you said it, I recognize it, but I want to explain. Yeah, I forgot. So vanilla is just anyone that is not non-monogamous. Yeah, it's not in the community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it doesn't mean missionary position for the rest of your life boring vanilla.
Speaker 2:Well, I also don't even call themselves vanilla swingers, because they're like we don't do anything crazy, we're just like regular right, so yeah yeah kind of. It's kind of a fun to yeah, I think so that was kind of okay.
Speaker 1:So this might be a really strange question, I don't know, but it was one that came to mind. So how do you, how do you deal with, like the sexual aspects of things and people's health, or is that even something that comes up like, do they, oh yeah, like stis and stuff? You mean yeah. Or you know even like herpes and things like that? I mean, are there, is there and stuff? You mean yeah. Or you know even like herpes and things like that. I mean, are there? Is there oral sex that could happen, or is it just straight up like regular? I mean, how do you know that people are healthy?
Speaker 2:yes. So first of all, there's protection. You know condoms are always used in. Fifth now there's two terms that we're going to get into some real intricate terms here. There's full swap and and soft swap. So full, this is all. These are all swinger terms. So full swap is people who are having penetrative sex with others, and soft swap is generally anything but, again, everyone's kind of defining things for themselves, so you always have to ask so this is something to think about.
Speaker 2:The first time we're meeting with couples, we're talking about things like this. We're talking about when was the last time you were tested? So people get tested regularly. We talk about those things. You know, this is what kind of horrifies, I think, some people because they're like it's so awkward and you're like it's really not and it's also important to talk about these things. And it's also why our friendships in the lifestyle have a different flavor to them, because we are vulnerable with each other very quickly. Like I like to say, we don't sit around and talk about the weather for very long, yeah, and then we're off to talking about not only like fundings, like maybe some of our other lifestyle experiences or how we got into it, all things that are all very emotional Right their lifestyle experiences or how we got into it, all things that are all very emotional right. And so you're kind of getting in deep with people from the get-go, whether or not you end up being intimate with them sexually, and then there might be that aspect as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that was one of the things that kind of came to mind, because even being, you know, a hetero woman, it's like I worry about. I mean, I think about that stuff all the time. Yeah, I'm always worried about that it's important. People are not honest a lot of the time, you know, and you just got to be protecting yourself in the best way you can. Right, absolutely, absolutely, and it's a very.
Speaker 2:You know we talked about the biggest fears. I think the three things that people come to me with is one, what if my partner falls in love with somebody else falls in love with somebody else? Two, what about STF? And three, just what about us wrecking what we already have? So here's the thing about non-monogamy that is probably one of the biggest misconceptions is that people are doing it because they're not happy in their current relationship, when nothing else is further from the truth. People who are not happy in their current relationship should not be trying non-monogamy because, let me tell you, that will speed up the demise of your relationship.
Speaker 2:So people come into non-monogamy already feeling like they're in this great relationship and everyone has a fear of ruining that which is a very healthy fear and that's the title of the book For Better or Even Better, because you already feel like you have this great relationship and then almost always, when people are practicing non-monogamy in a healthy way, they feel even closer.
Speaker 1:even you know they're like wow, we thought we had a great relationship before, now it's even better I would think the level of trust, like you're saying it's like you're, you can probably almost even talk about these things. You know. It's like oh, I saw this guy looked pretty intriguing, or maybe you guys only do things together, or it sounded like in your book. There's occasions when you would go out on your own and with maybe girlfriends or other people, and maybe he did the same thing too. But is that a part of it? Again, that's something that everybody maybe does a little bit differently or agrees to a little bit differently, or agrees to a little bit differently, but is that something that would make you feel uncomfortable if your husband was going out with people you didn't know? Or is it usually people that you both agreed on being around? It totally depends on the couple.
Speaker 2:So some people never date separately. Some people do some things separately. Some people really only do things separately when both have met the other people and there's a level of trust with everyone.
Speaker 1:Some people meet the other person that there goes, oh it just 100 depends yeah okay, I was kind of curious about that yeah what else, michelle?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think I think a lot of it has been answered. Yeah, there's. I just think, as we've gone through, you see how much well misconceptions that there are about this lifestyle and it automatically is just about the swinging and the sex and the upside down pineapple. I mean really when you think about it.
Speaker 2:It's like being ignorant about it, that is really the only thing that people really know Well yeah I half joke, although it's not really that far from the truth that people imagine these swinger clubs. As you walk in the front door, there's an orgy of people having sex and you're just expected to jump on top. Yeah, so my first thing I always tell everyone is there are never any expectations of anyone participating in anything, and if you're ever in a situation where you do feel like you're expected to do something, you should get out of that situation. That's not how this community operates. Yeah, and so there is. That's just not a thing.
Speaker 2:And I think, like I said before, everyone thinks we're in it just for the sex and I think, very quickly, people are in it just for the friendships. Actually, I think, very quickly, people are in it just for the friendships. Actually, that's what people are there for and these deep friendships in this community. You know Everyone as humans. We love connection, we love community and I think people find that in this community. Yeah, is it okay if I mention what state you're in? Yeah, of course. Okay, so you reside in the state of Utah, so I would imagine that there's a lot of people that you have been able to help that come from that religion. I mean all people in general. But just knowing a lot about the culture in that church, I would imagine yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I'm not from utah we moved here eight years ago and but almost all of our friends in the lifestyle here are ex-mormon yeah, some of them not ex. There are people who practice both way on the down low there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, way on the down and it's been.
Speaker 2:You know I haven't been through the experience of leaving the church for myself, but I think, other than having been through it myself, I'm probably as privy to that process as one can be, just because of all the people that I know and I've spoken with and I mentioned this in my book. But and there's something I really enjoy about the people in Utah that have been through that process, because they really you know when they leave the church, because it dictates so many aspects to your life when you leave the church.
Speaker 2:You're really left with this blank slate of like oh.
Speaker 2:They are very present to the fact that they were able to create everything in their lives kind of from scratch. My point is that everyone actually has that freedom, especially if you don't come from a high demand religion. But we all do feel the pressures of expectations or things that we should want to do or parents want us to do, you know, whatever. All those things are real. But so it's just a reminder for all of us that we should want to do or our parents want us to do, you know, whatever. All those things are real. But so it's just a reminder for all of us that we all get to create whatever we want in our lives.
Speaker 2:But I think the people who have really been through that process of recreation. There's very evolved people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they would almost have to be just getting past all of the guilt and, like you say, the expectations that have been placed. I was raised catholic, but between the two of us we're a sorry bunch now and neither one of us practice those things anymore. You know, to this, to that degree I definitely feel like it plays a role in a lot of the decisions subconsciously that I even make, without even realizing it. You know, and having been married as long as we were really kind of not getting exposed to a lot of other things, you realize, for us anyway, after divorce, it was like there was like this whole world out there that we never really had even paid attention to, just in regard to everything that was going on around us as women, and you know all of that.
Speaker 1:So this is a very interesting conversation because as we get older and one of the things you did mention in your book is that a lot of the people in the swinging lifestyle in particular, or maybe poly lifestyles too, but they're in their and so they're more open to trying different things that bring joy, kind of going into that last chapter that we had had, you talked about savoring joy, yeah, making good life choices yeah, I like that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, joy because there's so. There's joy in so many things that you find, but it sounds like, wait, you found other. Pleasure has a lot of mixed messages.
Speaker 2:We talked about the complexity of sexuality. So sexuality has a lot of complexity around it, and even pleasure has some complexity around it Like there's always.
Speaker 2:you know, we have the term guilty pleasure right, and so it's really just recognizing that as a human pleasure is one of the experiences we get to have, and why would we feel guilty about that? And so there is so much unlearning. I call it in non-monogamy because, like you said, there's so many things that we don't think about, and so a lot of times when you're struggling with something in any time, but in non-monogamy it's like well, why do I think that? And asking yourself that simple question, I always something I ask myself is like where did I learn that?
Speaker 1:Or who taught me that?
Speaker 2:Sometimes I realize, like I don't even believe, that you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Why do I put so much emphasis on something?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's just something that got taught to me along the way and it's still there and I hadn't thought about it in forever. And now the situation has made me question something, and so I love watching the journey of sexuality with women who are in the lifestyle. For this very reason because and again like I said, I'm talking about all pleasure, not just sexual pleasure. But sexual pleasure has another layer of complexity, I'll say, around it. And shame Watching women discover the sexual side of themselves, accept the sexual side of themselves, embrace the sexual side of themselves and then bring that whole being into the world. It is amazing to watch and that is one of the first things that women notice when they get into lifestyle and they see it in other women, and it is remarkable and it's beautiful. It really is.
Speaker 1:I would think that your confidence level even if you're a confident woman in general, your confidence level would just be through the roof. You're walking a little taller, you've got a little pep in your step, kind of a thing I mean that's kind of what your step, kind of a thing, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean that's kind of what it seems like to me because when you look at just women in general in our society, in all of history, our pleasure is not something that really is highlighted in a positive way in any capacity.
Speaker 1:I mean, even in other cultures, you know, they're cutting clitorises off of little kids because they're not allowed to have pleasure. They're only there for reproductive and male pleasure purposes, and that's going way back, obviously, but that still exists today. You know, and a lot of the oh, I don't know, a lot of the things that are surrounding religion, for example, is where you really run into a lot of you know, having been, like I said, raised in the Catholic church and raised by really strict parents and very judgmental parents my dad in particular I see where a lot of those things that I learned when I was a kid I'm now, as an adult, going I don't even know why I felt that was so important to you know, pass along to my children, you know, or whatever, because it doesn't make any sense Now as an adult, I question a lot of things I didn't really question when I was younger.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, well, I have enjoyed this tremendously. Yeah, you certainly give me something else to think about and I'm not married.
Speaker 2:So I mean it's like I could you know I could pretty much do whatever I want at this point, but yeah, I wanted ask you what was your impression of the people that were hitting on you that did turn out to be swingers.
Speaker 1:So it was a very handsome couple. From what I remember, it was a very handsome couple and they were probably around the same age as us, so we were around 50 at the time, I think I didn't know that's what was happening. I'm a pretty social person, but super naive I mean I had not been divorced even that long, maybe two years. I was so naive and I'd been married at such a young age that I just thought this was this lady being nice to me. I didn't really realize that she was interested in anything other than that. Yeah, and so until the guy I was with said I think they're sweet, because the guy approached him and they were talking, we went out and danced and everything, and I was just having fun I didn't really think anything of it.
Speaker 2:Well, and I even asked you that in a leading way because I think that's the thing is like that's. One of the other misconceptions is that as soon as a swinger is talking to you, they must be hitting on you, or there, I get this all this time. Is that anything? I was at this comedy club. It came out that you know, it was known that my husband and I were swingers and whatever, because there were some jokes made about it and and the guy on the way out, I made some kind of joke to him and he goes yeah, well, I don't think my, I wasn't joking about sex, even I was just like making a joke about meeting him. And he was like, yeah, I don't think my girlfriend would be into it. And I was like dude.
Speaker 1:I'm not after you I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's happening here and that idea that we were talking about that, it's all about sex, that we're constantly hitting on everyone you know. You know, maybe they were curious if you guys were open also, and so I guess you could call that hitting on. But I think that's one of the things that is very frustrating for us out in the world is that if people do know that we are that, then they think that's all we're after and we're not right. Yeah, no, like I just said, we're really in this for friendships, so yeah, and then I was just going to say, like anything, there's all different types of people.
Speaker 2:Representative of, yes, what the culture is right. I know somebody who, flat out, was propositioned to like no, skirting around the subject, invited him to go back to the hotel room and have sex so her husband could watch, you know, and of course he just didn't even know what to say, like I'm flattered, but no, that's okay, is what it was. But to your point. You know, there's going to be all different types, that's true, but to your point you know there's going to be all different types and it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It's not representative of what the whole lifestyle is, and that's so true, and, as so many things, the people who probably create that stereotype. They are out there, right, sure Right. And unfortunately, those are the only ones that are seen, because the rest of us are hiding.
Speaker 1:So it does come from somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would love a world where you know we could ask and people would be like, no, thank you, we're not into that and everyone can just carry on right you're not gonna get your feelings hurt.
Speaker 1:I mean, imagine you had to figure out the whole rejection aspect of things you know, because you're going to be maybe oh right, the people that are not interested don't know anything, anything about it Kind of like what happened with me. I was like I've never even been exposed to it before, so I didn't have any idea what they were talking about.
Speaker 2:And I would say most of the time, swingers in particular are not out in the real world looking for other swingers. That's why we have clubs and events and things that we go to why we have clubs and events and things that we go to, because it was relatively speaking, there are a lot of us, but relatively speaking, in a regular club there's going to be a small percentage, right that would be a bit of a nightmare yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I have learned a lot today. I so appreciate your time and just getting to understand and know a little bit about the lifestyle that you practice. We did do one episode last year the year before. That was on alternatives to monogamous relationship just, but we weren't doing it from experience. It was more like just speaking about different types of like. For example, michelle's in a long distance relationship. Her guy lives in Indianapolis, seattle lives in Seattle. So it's a different type of relationship and we did touch on this obviously very high level because we didn't have the experience with it. So this is really helpful and I've told some people that we're going to be talking with you tonight. They're very excited to see our episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on. It takes a level of open mindedness for that, so I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:We'll put a link. We'll put a link for your book and everything as well in our notes, because I know there's a lot of people that would be interested in having a look. And it's a quick read. It's a quick read.
Speaker 2:And also and I think you could speak to this it's not for people who are non-monogamous. These life lessons are for everyone and improve any relationship monogamous or not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I absolutely 100% agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely got a lot out of it. Reminder for the listeners the book is called For Better or Even Better. Lauren Hayes, thank you so much for being with us. I want to just really quickly thank our listeners for being out there on social media. We're out on all the socials tiktok, instagram, facebook, most recently, youtube. Thank you everyone that's been subscribing and downloading. We appreciate it. Tell and share all your friends.
Speaker 1:So oh, and then warren your website. Can you say what your website is? It's swinging lifestyle coachcom okay I had it, but I just wanted to make sure it was out there, yeah.
Speaker 2:And another thing, an easy way to remember if you go to explorewithlaurencom I have a free guide that comes up for that to start some interesting conversations with your partner. Okay, I love that yeah, well, thank you again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you again, we really appreciate your time. Yeah.