Howdy Partners
This podcast covers the world of Strategic Alliances & Partnerships in tech. Join Will Taylor, Ben Wright, and Tom Burgess on the trail to green pastures and unchartered territory through raw stories and dialogue, allowing our listeners to learn and decide how strategic partnerships can drive success...whether you are a VP or a professional looking to break into the space, join us on the Howdy Partners journey.
Howdy Partners
52: Building a Program with no Budget or Tools with Matt Dornfeld
Matt Dornfeld, Senior Director and Head of Global Partnerships at Feedonomics, joins Will Taylor on the Howdy Partners podcast to talk about the importance of building solid relationships for strong partnerships. Matt emphasizes that relationships are the main driver to creating meaningful partnerships.
Matt says that building partnerships doesn’t require fancy SaaS tools. Instead, he, “found that tools weren’t actually necessary. It was more about figuing out how we should operate in this space, how we can deliver value, and how we can ask for value in return.”
Matt emphasizes the power of curiosity in building relationships. He says it’s important to ask questions about your partner. Learn how their current partnerships work, and find out where you can add value.
00:59 Matt's Journey Into Partnerships
02:23 Matt learns the importance of relationships
03:26 Matt produces revenue without tools
07:13 Get super curious
09:14 Procces building
10:26 Find out the biggest levers to pull
16:42 Find partner market fit
19:09 Getting buy-in from partners
Howdy partners and welcome to another episode of the Howdy Partners podcast, where we give you tactical insights so that you can execute in your role. Today I'm joined with a fellow partnerships person and someone that I would call a friend. We've hung out in person before and I'm glad that we're having the chance to talk to because it's got a really compelling story. He has built partner programs in the past with no tools, and that is. Mind boggling to some of you, but we'll get into the specifics. Today I'm joined with Matt. Matt, how's it going?
Matt Dornfeld:It's going well. Thanks for having me. Uh, thrilled to talk about it. I think, um, you know, partnerships and program building is one of my favorite topics, so I'm glad we get to dig into that together.
Will Taylor:Love it. So how did you get into partnerships? A lot of people, you know, they're either a sales background, some marketing background. What about you? What's your journey? How did you start? And uh, how's it been?
Matt Dornfeld:.Yeah. Um, my journey was, uh, a little bit interesting. Uh, so I actually started my career in public relations and worked as a business development professional in the PR space. Uh, so a lot of what I did was commercial, um, pitch building and getting my partners excited about, um, the value that we could provide them. Uh, and then similarly, the value that. Uh, they can provide us. And so over time, that kind of manifested into ultimately the e-commerce space and getting deeper into sales and partnerships there. So, uh, I've been in e-commerce since, uh, roughly 2018. And then, uh, my first real full on dedicated partnerships role in 2020, uh, right in the thick of Covid. Uh, and it's been an incredible ride, uh, since then. So, Really been exposed to a lot of interesting partners throughout the e-comm space, uh, in the last few years. Um, both on the channel side, so working with like your Amazons and your Facebooks and TOS and Walmarts. Um, and then also the independent software vendor side, which, um, is kind of where my roots came from. Uh, and so just really understanding how partners make money off of the ecosystems they exist in, uh, has always been really fascinating, fascinating, to me. And so I've really spent a lot of extra time kind of getting to learn what makes the needle move, uh, in, in those capacities.
Will Taylor:And so when you stepped into the, the foray of full on partnerships, what were some of the early lessons that you had, uh, even if you carried them from the PR days into While on partnerships, what were, what was like one major lesson that you had?
Matt Dornfeld:You know, it's, it's easy to, um, get ahead of your skis. Um, I think with, with partnerships, you know, there's so many companies. That you could partner with. And a lot of the program building, uh, thinking that, that I did was around which partners should I be engaging with. And I think that that can be, um, a daunting task, especially if, if you're new. Um, and so I definitely made that mistake early of engaging with maybe too many partners and some cases even dropping the ball. Um, and I think that was a, a hard lesson learned, but it taught me really quickly, um, that these are real relationships and they require, um, maturity and nurturing and all the things you'd expect with your, your friends, right? And, and so I've tried to, um, I. Take that on, uh, that, that perspective on, as I've gotten deeper into my career in the partnership space, and that we need to treat these, these relationships like, like relationships and invest time, uh, li listen, uh, and, and really be constructive. And I've found that over time as I've doubled down on that behavior, uh, the partnerships have only gotten stronger. And, and you know what, everyone caress about the, the revenue's grown as well, which is always nice.
Will Taylor:I love that. And uh, yeah, there's this common theme that you brought up where, you know every idea is a good idea until you try and execute on it. You know, everyone can seem like a friend, but maybe they don't call you back or they don't show up, or they're flaky and, uh, I think there's inherently this diffusion of responsibility and. Business because we think, oh, we're in a partnership now. It's, it's done. We, we finish, we crossed that milestone. We're gonna enter into this, you know, formal thing and then, People might drop off, but you obviously need to take action. So we're gonna be talking about a lot of that action today. And I alluded to you building a program or multiple programs, uh, with no tools and they produced revenue. So how the heck did you produce revenue without tools? Tell me about what some of the foundations were that you focused on and, uh, why you feel you didn't need any tools.
Matt Dornfeld:Yeah, look, I, I think, um, being a good partnership person means being scrappy and creative. And to your point, it's not about checking the box. Um, the easiest part of a partnership is signing the agreement. I. Um, generating the revenue, building the trust, like those things take real time and effort and investment. And I found that, um, building programs is very similar, right? If you're going to encourage a lot of people to engage with you at scale and really build something that grows over time and employs other people, you need to spend the time upfront to understand where you sit in the ecosystem, what you can bring to the ecosystem, and also understand what the ecosystem can bring you. Um, which is really important. Like we're all in it for something. And, and so I, I, I think it's important to be upfront about what it is that you're looking for and what, what would move the needle for your company.'cause that gives you a good position to negotiate from. Uh, so that way you can make sure that whatever you're asking for is aligned to what you can also give. And so, uh, as far as building without tools, uh, honestly, it's, it's a lot of work in the early days of program building and I found that tools can actually get in the way where you spend more time thinking about or, or investing time in figuring out how a tool should work versus just doing the hard work and figuring out what works for your business first. Um, so tools will come later. Tools are influencers. They're accelerants to great programs or bad ones, and. I found that you don't need to add extra ingredients to, to the mix until you really land on what the recipe is supposed to deliver. So in my case, um, I've been really fortunate to work with a lot of really talented individuals, both at my company and in the ecosystem, and a lot of great mentors along the way. And I found that simply asking your partners or the people that you want to be partners with, what moves the needle for them and how you can Kind of draw a, a parallel or, or, or a thread between what you offer and what they need can go a really long way to laying the framework to a really successful relationship and ultimately a program over time. Um, and so it's not to say that tools aren't important, but I just found that for where we were when we started things, tools were actually weren't necessary. It was more about figuring out how we should operate in the space, how we can deliver value, and then how we can ask for value in return.
Will Taylor:I love that. And I think one of the main things I'm pulling from that is being upfront and direct and intentional with, like you said, the recipe that you're building. Because the recipe is, you know, where's your current company at, what are your needs and what do you need to do to get there? And then align that with your partners. And so would you have specific sessions with partners where you would sit down and Lay it out in a document or something where you're noting down, this is what you want, this is what it takes to get there. Like how did you actually take action on that? Obviously you're asking the direct question, but was there anything else that you did to help lay that foundation of the partnership?
Matt Dornfeld:Yeah, I got super curious. Um, that was like the, that was the mo is ask a thousand questions to, you know, the people that I wanted to learn from and ultimately engage with. And so when we started launching the program at Omics, um, we interviewed, I. Many agencies, uh, that we wanted to engage with. And we were trying to figure out, you know, what do they do in the space that we operate in today? Do they have a partner? They work with a competitor? What works for them? What doesn't? Do they feel like they were leaving money on the table by not doing a certain thing? Did they not even understand what the opportunity was? Um, and, and so as I interviewed more and more people, I started to realize, okay, there's actually a theme here. There are many partners or or potential partners saying the same thing. And if they're saying the same thing and they're all thinking, you know, okay, there's something here. I'm leaving money on the table. Maybe it just lacks some structure. and and so therein lies the opportunity. And, and I think that's the same for, um, most software industries. I, I don't think it's, uh, you know, specific to e-commerce or anything like, like that, but I, I found that. Started to pick up on a few key themes, and then the themes ultimately were the unlocks to generating a, a revenue producing model. And so as we took the interviews and we, we boiled them mo down to key points, we were able to bake those into a program that ultimately, directly targeted what those pains or gaps were. So that way the audience I wanted to engage with was highly receptive and warmed up to the program concept, uh, from its inception.
Will Taylor:So it sounds like one, you're being direct, asking the questions, you're getting curious. Two, you're noticing what that pattern is and probably noting it down and grappling with those ideas, and then you're putting it into action. So I. What are those, you know, top two or three foundational processes that you built after you then identified, okay, this is what's going on. This is the pattern we gathered this information from, our questions. Um, what is next? What do you do to start building? Let's say I got that information. What am I doing next in terms of process build?
Matt Dornfeld:Yeah, look, you know, I, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, this perspective, but I, I strongly believe that if you were at a software company, um, everyone at your company is a revenue person. I. Everyone in your in your company, from support to success, to sales, marketing, engineering, everyone should have an eye on revenue. And when you look at your entire company through that lens, you start to realize you have all sorts of levers to pull and generate value. For partners, some that you may not even be thinking about, uh, on the surface when you set out to, to build your own program. Uh, in general, product sells itself, right? A really good product can generally engage with a certain cohort of partners really well, and you have product partnerships. Other times you have more bounty and rev share models that that work. Ultimately, all of those things play into a program throughout a a program's maturity. So as you get more complex and add more partners, more models tend to appear. But at the early onset, I, I find that it's most critical to understand what are our levers? Like, what can we bring to the ecosystem? Can we leverage our UI in a certain way? Are there certain integrations we should invest in? Are there certain, uh, commercial models that we can contribute to? Maybe there's a rev share that really moves the needle for a certain kind of partner. And so the, the process I found was, and map those things out. Figure out what all those levers are. Write them down and figure out as an entire organization, what can we do as a group to more move towards a more partner first. Perspective. And as you start to do that, you start to realize you can generate leads and opportunities for your partners in ways you couldn't even, couldn't even imagine, uh, from the onset beyond that. Um, I think just having a really good understanding of, um, what you can and can't deliver, uh, like what those levers are. So in general, Not everyone has budget. Not everyone has marketing arms to just, you know, throw at things or, uh, maybe there's no press budget or maybe there's no real major social media presence. And so the things that might move the needle for your partners might, might, might not even be the things you can actually offer. Um, so understanding what you can contribute to go to market, what would actually drive a material outcome can also be really critical. And I found that similar to the first point, it is just about mapping everything. There are gonna be certain influencers at your company that can maybe represent your company in a different way Online. There's going to be certain people, maybe on your board or in your C-suite that have certain relationships that also need to be mapped out. And so I found that the more that you can get all those thoughts onto a piece of paper, you'll start to draw the lines between different teams and groups. People all again, through the lens of how do we deliver value to our partners, but understanding where we can contribute and where we can't.'cause the worst thing you can do is over promise something you actually can't deliver on. Which from the early days will just deflate a program, um, right away.
Will Taylor:I love that. That's, uh, I've. Had similar thoughts around like how do you actually determine what you give to your partner? You think about what are your business strengths? Maybe it's the marketing, maybe it's the internal influencers, maybe it's the really good product. Uh, and then of course, you know, knowing what you can't,'cause I've seen a lot of Cookie cutter programs that, you know, they're well-intentioned to try and deliver value, but you know, it's, Hey, let's do a, a webinar. And their team has never done webinars in the past. Uh, I've actually been at a company in the past where they didn't ever do webinars. They had really good marketing. They had, you know, an awesome blog and pretty good social presence. Um, but when we started offering webinars as this opportunity, it was. Going against the grain because we didn't have the existing processes and the internal resources for it. And so, um, you mentioned basically every team is revenue generating, which I love. Um, now let's talk about which are some of the more important relationships when building the program and why, let's, let's say, which is the most important, where you spent most of your time when you were building programs yourself?
Matt Dornfeld:Yeah, I mean I, one of the other exercises I did to the earlier point of writing everything down is figuring out who's on my team internally. Like who do I need to rely on to deliver the thing that I need to deliver legal operations? Heads of revenue, uh, marketing, sales. These are in some cases all different people. Um, in other cases, some of them are the same people and people wear multiple hats. But I think it's, it's important to win buy-in super early, uh, into the process so that way you're not met with unforeseen blockers late in the process. And then again, end up upsetting a partner because something you thought you could commit to, you can actually deliver. And that's the worst feeling ever. You've set the wrong expectations with someone. They've got their hopes up, they've told their leadership about it, and then, oops, something happened. You can't actually deliver that thing that was promised in some cases months prior. And so I've just found that that goes back to building trust. I made sure that every step of the way I was building trust and investment with key leaders, um, in my case at, at BigCommerce and omics, um, to understand, okay, from a legal perspective, what are the things that we cannot budge on? Like, what's our line of sand? What are those things? How do I be aware of them early so that way I account for them when I go to negotiate. And then with marketing to your earlier point, uh, it's not always about committing to the tactic of the webinar, but also who's gonna listen to this? Who's gonna follow up on it after? What's gonna happen to the recording? How are we gonna post about it six months from now? Is it gonna live evergreen? Is it not? And so understanding the strategy long term of again, the things you can and cannot contribute value to, helps you offer and negotiate from a place of strength. So I just found that making sure that I, I win those relationships internally first, make sure I can execute on the ideas that I'm proposing, goes a really long way to making sure that I'm delivering value in a way that I, I promised. Um, beyond that, uh, obviously it's your partners, so it's figuring out who are those first few partners who are gonna lean in with you early and often. They're gonna understand that you're gonna make mistakes and they're gonna be willing to work with you to make sure that you perfect the program. And so there always has to be someone that goes first. And so figuring out who that trusted ally is and investing the time and the energy going the extra mile for them is gonna set you up for a lot of long-term success. And so that, that's exactly what we did. We, from that same interview group that I interviewed early to get their feedback to build a program that they wanted to invest in, it's the same group that we push every new idea out to, to make sure that they're still bought in, that they're still feeling like they're getting the value that they originally sought to gain, uh, at the very onset of the program.
Will Taylor:You gave me a thought there about, you know, finding those internal allies and, you know, maybe you want the VP of Sales, but you get the director of sales just by whoever's raising their hand. I'm curious from your perspective, whether it's with partners or with internal members, uh, was there a specific characteristic about people? Did you ask a specific question and you got a specific answer where you're like, okay, this is my person, you know, this person's going to, you know, help me when I need help, or they're going to go a little bit extra mile of the extra mile for me when we want. Feedback on something. What was that thing? Was it, you know, a glint in their eye? Tell me what, uh, what you found from those people, whether it was their behavior or if you asked them specific questions. Um, what was that?
Matt Dornfeld:Yeah. Uh, great question. I, I found that it, uh, I'll keep going back to the same theme here around mapping things out. So, you know, when I was getting my start in sales, I remember I. My leadership team telling me to map the account. Um, and so what that basically means is you figure out everyone who would use benefit or have an opinion about the solution that you're selling. And, uh, partnership strategy is actually very similar. Um, so we hear a lot about product market fit. Uh, I think there's something, I'm gonna make this up right now, but like partner market fit I think is, is actually really. A fascinating concept because it's really just figuring out like, okay, if I'm gonna build a relationship with this entire company, who are all the teams that I should be engaging with to make this successful? You know, when I partner today with, uh, Google or Facebook, it's not just a singular team that I'm, I'm working with there. And so to your point, is a director or vp, those two people may actually have very different goals in some cases. Um, and so figuring out how I deliver value, To certain people, um, actually just adds another facet to the program. So in the case of a salesperson, I may engage with, you know, partner X, who has a sales rep that's willing to talk to me about the program, but the value that I'd actually expect to recognize might come from the customer success team member. So in that case, I definitely want the sales person's opinion because that person may be a helpful influencer for me to get what I want over time, but they're also gonna care about something. So it's important for me to note what they're looking for and similarly get connected to that customer success person to understand what moves the needle for them, and then build a framework around that type of cohort or persona. To make sure that my program accounts for driving value to all the people that can influence me, ultimately getting the value that I'm looking to gain in the future as well. So, um, to my earlier point about those agency interviews, it was the salespeople, it was the C-suite, it was the marketing folks, it was everyone that would have to contribute to the success of my program on their side. I wanted to hear from. So many cases, there were two or three calls that went into interviewing an agency. Um, but the point was I wanted to map who I was going to partner with in a really deep and thoughtful way, so that way when I built my program and the levers that would drive value to them, I covered all of those pieces so that I removed all the doubt and all the reasons to say no to ultimately driving me business in the future.
Will Taylor:I, I was just thinking about that. Make it hard. Hard for them to say no. Where you build such a strong business case where you know exactly what they want, or at least you know, in the interaction, what you can give, aligning with what they want. To the point where they're, they're persuaded because the case is there. Like why would they say no? The, the value, the path to value is clear enough that they can say, great, let's dedicate some resources to this. Um, and I like that framing of like, make it hard for them to say no. Um, so. You mentioned, you know, getting that buy-in really early, how did you do that? Because let's say there's no revenue or little revenue coming from partners. Why would anyone else in the organization say, I. Yes. To, you know, giving resources to Matt for the partner program. What was the either talk track or, you know, the specific tactic, uh, clearly you're aligning with them internally on what their goals are and showing them that path so that you know, you're building that business case. But it can't all be persuasion unless if it is. But did you bring in numbers, data? What was your approach for getting that buy-in from those executives so that they can say, okay, yes, we're gonna dedicate resources here.
Matt Dornfeld:Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think a healthy North Star for any software companies to aim for about a third of your revenue over time should come from partnerships. Um, obviously it won't start that way. Uh, and, and it may take some companies shorter periods of time to get there and others longer, especially depending on your ticket size and how the industry operates, uh, and whatever you, you sell. Um, I found that first, that the first thing I do is I write an executive summary. So I write a crystal clear, applicable to applicable to everybody document that aligns everyone into a place that includes owners. So a raci, right, you know, assigning roles to certain people for certain reasons. It includes the opportunity, the risks. Um, I think there are more risks than, uh, even rewards and, and, and not doing a partnership program, right in that. If you don't do it, somebody else will. And I think that knowing that partnerships are so relationship heavy, the earlier someone starts building those relationships and maturing them and investing the time, like I was talking about, the greater runway they're gonna have and, and headstart in, in front of you. And so I think it's important to underscore the importance of that and understand based on who we want to acquire, who influences that decision. As we dug into it, uh, at Omics and BigCommerce has done for years. It, it's no different than really any other industry. It's, it's, again, back to mapping who influences the buying decision to ultimately drive revenue for the product that I sell. And once we figured out who those people were, it was pretty straightforward as far as building a loose model to make, you know, my leadership understand, okay, by not doing these things, by not engaging with these people, we're exposed to these kinds of risks. By not investing this time, by not investing this energy. We might not close deals as fast. We might not, you know, execute a certain vision on time, or maybe our board has a certain expectation that we're not able to meet. And so, um, now that's more of a stick than the carrot. But the, the carrot side is also great. There are other opportunities, like maybe again, just sticking to the e-commerce story here. Maybe there are certain APIs we want access to from our partners before other partners, uh, or competitors would otherwise have access to them. Or maybe there are certain special commercial levers that we're able to pull. Maybe there's a product partnership that we can both commercialize. And so I think it's, um, almost, it's, um, common to find that companies focus just on Uh, inbound and outbound referrals being the, the core of a partnership, but partnerships actually goes far beyond the scope of just passing leads back and forth. Um, I think the, the product commercialization piece is one of my favorite parts actually to work on, which is how do you build integration level relationships that incentivize both companies to lean in together and drive outsize outcomes? And so as we got to, uh, a deeper part of our partner program, we started to realize, okay, it's not just referral volume. We're after. It's product partnerships, it's investment from partners, it's exposure to features and programs and betas and alphas and all sorts of things that ultimately our end client would want to benefit and take advantage of. And so as we begin to paint that whole picture, yeah, obviously the data matters and, and the math matters and the revenue matters, but there's a whole picture about what makes our company different and it's our perspective that partnerships can be the tip of the spear. To help lead that kind of change for a company, uh, and ultimately at, at our company. That that's what secured the buy-in, uh, that you were referencing.
Will Taylor:That. I think, uh, one of the important points there that you mentioned is I feel like most people only focus on the benefits. Most people focus on, oh, if we, you know, have a partner attached to every deal, or you know, there's one integration with every client that increases our retention rate by 13%. That's all great, but I think the missed opportunity puts a lot more of the reason why we should build a partnership program into perspective, especially for. You know that c r o who's trying to think more strategically or, or the c e o around, like, how do we actually build this business compared to our competitors, or, you know, just continue to scale the business. The perspective of, you know, someone else is gonna do it. Or you know, you can't be in all 28 places that influence the buyer along their buying journey. You know, there's stats that show that you're only in four, so why would you miss out on 24 other opportunities to influence them, um, while other people will be? And there's this idea of like building the moat around your business. You know, if you want a big moat, you want a strategic Positioning in the market, then you need to build that. And, you know, it takes time to build that mode. So I love that framing of one, executive summary. Two, the risks, and then three, of course the rewards. Um, and I feel like what's often missed is that risks side of, um, the business case building, because probably don't wanna add in that negativity or that fear. Um, but it builds, like you said, a really strong business case.
Matt Dornfeld:there's a cost of inaction and I think, you know, that's, that is incredibly preventable, uh, early on by trying and ultimately, you know, again, like if you want to drive, um, a mope and really a big one, uh, I I truly believe partnerships can be. A mega differentiator. Even when we pitch Phenomics now against our competitors. We're talking about the partnerships program. We're talking about the unique features, the unique, uh, programs you have access to or commercial benefits for our clients. And that's, that's right on our sell sheets, that we, we prepare our, our team members to talk about our programs, uh, specifically our partner program and our partners as a result, as a means of differentiating against anybody else because we truly believe that The time we spent early on to drive that program forward is ultimately gonna pay off for our end client who will benefit the most.
Will Taylor:In a world where everything can be commoditized, you stand out when you are standing together. And of course with this additional value with partners. Amazing. All right, so. always leave our audience with one tactical tip, and I'm curious what you would say if someone came to you and they asked, what is that one practice I should be doing every day or every week? What is that thing that I can do that can move the needle? Uh, no matter how simple it is? What is that thing that you make sure you do daily or weekly?
Matt Dornfeld:That is a great question. Um, I, I, for me it's actually, uh, two things. One is, is be curious. Um, so be. Almost aggressive with your, your, your seeking of education. Like really take ownership and, and license with, with being as creative and as, um, direct with seeking guidance. Um, I, I think that's the, the best way to, to stand out and be on top of your game is to just be the best student you can possibly be and ultimately bring those things through your day-to-day. Whatever you learn, find a way to apply it, uh, as fast as you can. Then more tactically, um, or excuse me, strategically, I'd say it's, it's aligning to or constantly realigning to your North Star. Um, I talk about that a lot with my team members today, uh, which is, you know, constantly ask yourselves what is the goal of what we're doing? And then as you think more about your tactics, it gets pretty easy to make the decision. Is the thing that I'm doing right now going to get me closer to that goal or not? And. It is pretty binary. The answer is yes or no. And if the answer is yes, double down, do more, like go faster. If the answer is no, cut it. And I think there's, there's value in being quick to make those decisions at any level of your career early on or as a senior leader, uh, being, uh, you know, very strong, uh, with your opinions, but also being willing to change them very quickly to make sure that they're continuously staying aligned to what the company needs to be doing. And if you feel like you're not sure what that North Star is, ask your leaders. Um, and I think, you know, having that healthy and open conversation about, um, the seeking to understand and wanting to understand where the company is going and how what you're doing can contribute to that success is, is super critical. And, and something you can do very frequently. And as a, as a people manager and a leader, I would love it and I do love it. But my team members do that today, which is, I had this thought of thinking about where we're going as a team and as a company. What's your perspective? Do you, you know, do you view this as helping us get there closer and faster and, and more directly or, or not? And ultimately, I think that produces really creative conversations and, and shows that you're really invested in the program's success over time.
Will Taylor:Get aggressively curious. I love it. Matt, thank you so much. When you and I chatted, uh, we, I mean, we talked about carrots and sticks. I will dangle the carrot a little bit. Your story is amazing. It's generated, you know, millions of dollars for the companies you've worked for. We're gonna have you back on, but thank you so much for your wisdom on how to build a program without any tools. And, uh, we will catch everyone on the next episode. Maybe Matt will be there.
Matt Dornfeld:Looking forward to it. Thanks again. Will.
