64 - Unlocking Success in Channel Partnerships - Rob Sale

Rob Sale joins the Howdy Partners podcast to discuss the importance of trust in partnerships and the shift towards value-oriented partnerships. 

He highlights the need for SaaS companies to integrate partners into their customer success strategies and emphasizes the role of agencies in driving growth and customer satisfaction. 

Rob also shares insights on building trust with partners and the importance of transparency and communication in partnerships.

**Key Takeaways:**

- Trust is the foundation of successful partnerships, and agencies play a crucial role in building trust with customers.
- SaaS companies should integrate partners into their customer success strategies to drive retention, upsell, and customer satisfaction.
- Building trust with partners requires transparency, open communication, and involving partners in key decision-making processes.
- Partnerships should be focused on delivering value to customers and solving their problems, rather than solely focusing on revenue generation.
- SaaS companies should provide access to their product and success teams to enable partners to deliver value and build strong relationships with customers.

**Quotes:**

- "Partnerships is about trust, and I wanted to be at the center of the trust equation." - Rob Sale
- "Partnerships are becoming more partner-aware, and agencies are in a powerful position to drive growth and value for customers." - Will Taylor
- "Partnerships should be focused on delivering value and solving customer problems, not just generating leads." - Tom Burgess

**Chapters**

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Guests
01:14 Introducing the Special Guest
01:32 The Excitement of Reconnecting
02:05 Reflecting on Partnership Growth
03:12 Discussing the Transition to Service World
03:28 Exploring the Reasons for the Switch
04:38 The Role of Trust in Partnerships
13:08 The Importance of Integrating Partners into the Value Equation
21:27 The Importance of Scaling Partnerships
22:08 The Power of Customer Validation
22:44 The Shift Towards Value and Retention
25:34 The Role of Partners in Product Development
29:10 The Importance of Trust in Partnerships
36:31 The Future of Partnerships: Building for Lasting Value

Transcript

Rob Sale: 0:00

Fundamentally, partnerships is about trust and I wanted to be at the center of the trust equation and trusted agencies and consultants and so on, or at the center of that trust equation. So I get to be a part of a ecosystem that's, on fire and the opportunities just keeps growing.

Will Taylor: 0:16

Howdy partners, and welcome to another episode of the Howdy Partners podcast, where we give you tactical insights so that you can win in your role. Today we are joined with, I'm gonna say a legend in the space, and of course, near and dear to my heart, and I'm sure Tom's heart as well. And we're going to be talking about working with agencies and also what that world is like. But before we dive in, Tom, How you doing?

Tom Burgess: 0:44

I am so excited for today because I haven't spoken with our guests in a long time. I'm doing well, um, just trying to wrap some stuff up before the family and I head back to Michigan for the holidays and yeah, man, it's been a, it's been a whirlwind. Where's like, where, where do, where do the days go?

Will Taylor: 1:05

I agree. Holiday time, end of year, and also just everything else going on, but Nonetheless, let's dive in. Rob Sale, the Man, the myth, the legend, the inspiration for both Tom and I, my first leader in partnerships. Welcome to the show. Finally. It only took us whatever episode number this is in the late sixties, but here we are. Um, how are you doing, Rob?

Rob Sale: 1:33

I am doing awesome guys. I can't tell you how excited I am to be sitting here with the two of you. This is just like, this is, this is the dream episode. Let's go. I'm so pumped. I'm so pumped. Like Tom, like you said, we haven't talked in so long,

Tom Burgess: 1:46

I know

Rob Sale: 1:47

but there's so much to talk about. So let's dive. Let's go.

Tom Burgess: 1:52

yeah, it's like partnerships taking months and years to ruminate. Now it's finally here.

Rob Sale: 1:58

now it's like upon us so we can like, yeah, just have a great conversation about it. So

Will Taylor: 2:05

Yeah. And I feel like, Rob, we're your, uh, we're your kids all grown up? Uh, you trained us and, uh, here we are. We have a podcast

Tom Burgess: 2:14

Look where we are,

Rob Sale: 2:14

saw part partner Greatness to, or, uh, will, I saw Partner Greatness and I said, that's it. He's coming on board. And man, you just ran with it from there. And now I take my inspiration from you, my friend, and you, Tom. Tom. Tom was my agency hero, trying to get things going on that side of the fence. So, lots of stories to share, lots of learnings to share, but couldn't have done it without either of you. So.

Tom Burgess: 2:42

likewise.

Will Taylor: 2:43

Well, you, you heard it here first everybody. I'm gonna put that on my resume. Um,

Tom Burgess: 2:47

The quick, that was a.

Rob Sale: 2:51

I, so I, I just talked, I just talked the, the, this stuff up here will actually made it happen. And then on the flip side, when Tom, we started working together, you actually operationalized it and made it happen. And so having all three of us come together and share those perspectives, awesome.

Tom Burgess: 3:11

Yeah.

Will Taylor: 3:12

And so Rob, you've made the Switch now into the Service worlds where you're working with one of the best agencies that I know of Six and Flow, and you are leading partnerships there, and before you were, of course, in SaaS organizations. Let's dive into why you've made the switch and some of the exciting things that you've been learning. Let's, uh, yeah, let's dive into the why first, and then we can continue from there.

Rob Sale: 3:39

Yeah, sure. Oh, I was like, like I saw, I saw Tom having so much fun over in the agency side, so I'm like, oh my God, I want to try that. But no, for real. Um. I'm super excited to be back in the hub swag ecosystem for one, and I'm super excited to be working alongside unbelievable talent, uh, too. And, uh, uh, rich and the team at Six and Flow have done a wonderful job and leading a charge in so many, uh, respects globally. Um, and the ecosystem itself from a HubSpot point of view is. Is on a tear, right? Like, I remember when HubSpot was passing a hundred thousand clients and we were part of that equation in a really big way. And then, um, you know, 18 months later they're at 200,000. Like, it's, it's crazy. The multiplier of the ecosystem is so big and the platform is growing so well that there's so much opportunity. And the, one of the key reasons I. Went into, uh, the services side and I, I was really attracted to that is I just, you know, fundamentally, um, partnerships is about trust and I wanted to be at the center of the trust equation and trusted agencies and consultants and so on, or at the center of that trust equation. So I get to service the other side. I get to be a part of the trust equation and I get to be a part of a ecosystem that's on, on, fire and the opportunities just keeps growing.

Tom Burgess: 5:11

Yeah, it, it's so, it's crazy to think about, you know, like the transition time that I had, and I mean, the parallels are really obvious to point out, but for me it was really cool to come into an organization. Or go to SaaS where it's like, I know this product. I, I live and breathe this product. But I, I really like your point on the being like at the epicenter of the trust equation, because like, I'd say one of the things that I probably feel more being on the partnership side is like, what is the customer thinking? Or, you know, like, how can I, how can I begin to build trust? With my partners to then extend that trust out to customers. So it's just a different kind of lens to think about, um, which is cool.

Will Taylor: 5:55

And I even venture to say that, uh, the. Changing tides in the economy and the market. It's, you're, in my opinion, situating yourself in a, a really good position, um, for success. But then also for agencies, they're becoming a lot more partner aware, whereas in the old world it was, you know, you only sell. HubSpot and you know, you can build a business off of that. Now it's a bit more saturated. There's many more, uh, tech opportunities for partnering with these companies. And so, um, there's more power on the agency side. And so leading that charge I think is important. But then also, um, you know, when I think of opportunity for folks like Six and Flow and other HubSpot agencies. Like HubSpot is inevitably going to start thinking more and more about their partnerships and how they can enable their customers and their partners to do more partnerships. And so if you're at the forefront of that, I think you'll be in again, that really powerful position. And also, um, the position of a lot of opportunity. Um, so I'm excited to see more agencies do more partnerships.

Rob Sale: 7:08

So, you know, Tom, you and I have had the opportunity of seeing on both sides of the equation and you too will, you're on both sides of the partner coin and seeing, seeing that. And, um, what's super interesting to me is like, you know, from a sas. Provider or an operator in the SaaS space. Um, I always felt like we were seeking trust. I don't know if we were entirely in that we were a part of the trust triangle, but we were always seeking it. And you know, when you hear the broader narrative in the marketplace, it's all about tapping into that larger trust tree. So you're in a position of seeking it. So as an agency, you're kind of at the center or more at the center, because you're not just part of that stack, you're actually putting the stack together. So agencies, you know, um, there's been a big shift in change in HubSpot agencies and agencies are not marketing and content anymore. They're actually evolving into, and what we are at six and four. It's like. Their, their strategic growth go to market agencies. That's a way bigger, more complex scope. And that reflects what HubSpot's grow grown itself into as a platform. And so, um, that just, that just is super interesting when you can start to dovetail in not only marketing, but you're talking about sales, you're talking about revenue operations, you're talking about success. You're talking about ecosystem growth and partners, and that becomes a part of it, and that's why I felt like it was a really good time to join as well, is because the market is ready for a bigger go to market strategy on top of HubSpot.

Tom Burgess: 8:54

Um, well, and I was at Inbound this year. Uh, and Robin, you and I were talking before, like actually met up with a couple folks from Six and Flow and just the, and you can, you can sense where HubSpot's going with this just, and how they've kind of opened up the, the app ecosystem recently. It's always been there, but now they're placing a big emphasis on, on really being kind of like the broad. System where like you have enhance, enhancing and, you know, secondary technologies that will help kind of speed that that sy it will help power HubSpot. Like they're, I think the way that they've kind of like centered around their hubs, but then letting other vendors and other SaaS platforms come in and build on top of that is a really powerful statement to say that. We wanna play together and, and you know, like when you tie that back to agencies in the HubSpot ecosystem, you have to adapt or you have to, you build that kind of like niche. Go to market where yeah, like you're mainly your, your primary function is like, let's build around the HubSpot ecosystem. But even that changes as you now think about really what the ecosystem is. And so you know, the teams that can have that expertise and build that expertise and build that trust with customers just extends itself into SaaS even more.

Rob Sale: 10:16

Yep. No, I, I think you made a really good point there. It's not building around HubSpot anymore. It's around, it's about building around HubSpot's ecosystem and the ecosystem is HubSpot plus 1200 app partners and 5,000 solutions. But like there's partnering within, there's partners partnering now. You see the ecosystem partnering, right? And that's when things get really powerful that like, that's where you see the Microsofts of the world and everybody else like. And then they develop. I just came out of the Microsoft ecosystem from another role, and part of their partnering and programming and philosophy is to truly focus in on are you partnering in the partner community? And they focus on that and they tell you to, and as a PDM or somebody that's there to help you, they, they recognize the value in doing that. So I think I see all that happening. Right at HubSpot, which is, it's, it's happening anyway, you know, whether it's like structured or organic, but, uh, it's just, that's why it's so exciting. Such an awesome time, right.

Tom Burgess: 11:22

I've got a, I've got a question going back to the idea of like being at the center of this trust radius, and maybe this'll be more not, I mean I could talk for hours about this, but appealing to our audience, which is like, let's say someone is working in channel partnerships with these agencies. What do you think, you know, your top Your top, kinda like two to three strengths are to building that trust. Because like the way that I came into this day one is like, I know I've worked at an agency, like I know what makes you excited. I know What makes you stressed out. I know. Kind of like. What it takes. And you do too because you were right alongside me to to building that relationship. But then, you know, like when you think about it pro like your product has to work, but then more importantly, like what do you view from a partnership lens in terms of like the biggest trust building exercise you can do with SaaS platforms today?

Rob Sale: 12:20

So me as an agency partnering with SaaS platforms and what can we, can we do to build the trust together or,

Tom Burgess: 12:25

And, and yeah, thinking about it from your dual experience, but now being on the agency side, I'd love to hear it.

Rob Sale: 12:31

Yeah. So, um, I guess it's probably, yeah, it's good to like segue into, into, um, I. Some of the observations that I've seen being on the other side of the partner, partner coin and so on. But, um, for me, the, the key I now I'm looking for when I'm partnering with SaaS companies being, coming from the person that built SaaS programs too. Now operating in one, um, is truly how, how does, how does the company or does the SaaS company and does the program. Um, truly integrate partners into the heart of their value equation with their customer. So, uh, lemme tell you what I mean by that. I mean, it's not, Hey, are you providing me all kinds of content and startup guides and how to implement and sell my product? That's great to get things started. Right? That's great. To, um. Establish a base of success together, and those things are absolutely a hundred percent needed.

Tom Burgess: 13:43

Yeah.

Rob Sale: 13:44

Where most programs fizzle out is to continue that success, to have the partner continue to build trust, to build that trust with the joint accounts as well, is that you have to, as an, as a company, strategically from the very top. Have partners at the heart of that value equation. And a lot of that's where I think a lot of programs fizzle and die. I mean, candidly, Tom, you and I were struggling to get that motion established when we were partnering, right? And so I. The first year was great. Agencies are so good at diving in on partnerships, like maybe too good, right? because they, they get going and everyone's like, oh my God, they're firing leads at us and it's great. And because they know their lives are centered around the partner motion, right? They almost take it for granted, but it's centered around the partner motion. It's just that's what you do. Um. But the problem is those programs that tend to, if you don't get that partner as a part into your customer base and fully integrated, not just the ones they find or they bring to the table, but if you're not putting them, um, at the heart of your, um, your customer success strategy, then those programs don't have the same kind of legs or impact because SaaS is not just. Hey, go sell it and then go implement it, and then nothing after that. It'd be it's full customer cycle. And partners play a role and can play a massive role in retention, upsell customer satisfaction over the long term. So if you wanna build a durable business like HubSpot has, you've gotta keep moving that partner, those partners, into the center of your value equation and your strategy. That's sort of the biggest thing that I've observed. So it's a lot of, I see a lot of programs that do a great job getting it going, but there's no road past that to continued success

Tom Burgess: 15:54

Right. It's a referral engine

Rob Sale: 15:55

I don't know what, yeah, like to your point, Tom, like what's your experience? I don't know if you have a different view on that at all or what, what.

Tom Burgess: 16:02

I, I, I think it's very aligned to what you think and, and I think when you. An organiz and will. You and I have talked about this a lot. It's the idea, especially, it doesn't matter how old your program is, whether it's like starting fresh, it's been in existence for two years, wherever the point is like you have to continually. Sell your program and the success around it to interdepartmentally, you know, by executive buy-in and leadership is huge. But then to Rob's point, when you start to think about all the other cross-functional teams, whether it's sales support, cx, there's, there's a, there are efficiencies and like metrics that Those teams can tap into, through partnerships that until they kind of see that or experience that aha moment, they'll, they'll just kind of be stand, not standoffish. That's a really kind of, that's, that's too harsh, but like, they just won't, they won't catch onto the why. And so all we've talked about here. Is how integral it is to like, yeah, you've gotta build the program, you have to build the structure. You have to make sure that you know you're stress testing. It's foolproof, but like even more important for the long-term success of that program is being able to speak with someone like the CX team and say like, listen, once we integrate our partners, or if we understand we have A good batch of agency partners that can help unlock or like reduce churn rates, help us like win bigger or help scale up in upsell existing opportunities past renewal. Then you're like. Why wasn't I doing this earlier? And actually it's so funny the, to tie this all back together. The perfect example of the person that caught wind of this was Josh Kirkham when I was on the agency side. That dude under, and he, this is an ae, right? So like kind of talking about the cross references of like, it doesn't matter if it's sales cx, like everyone can win through partnerships, an AE. Started to see like the value and just like the readiness of of agency referral leads. And now he's like, oh, I don't need to demo the product. I just need to get an so out the door. Like hell yeah. Like I'll take the free commission. So like, the point is like you've always gotta be continually enabling training and like men and just talking about partnerships in the form of like Partners can help you. Like they, they can sometimes be a burden, but in most regards, like they're going to help unlock a level of value that every team can access,

Rob Sale: 18:38

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, every business now is not on like growth at all costs. They are on a right. Times have changed. So it's durable growth. Right. And, and in order to do that, I. You know, like a lot of programs and a lot of partner leaders, they all sit in revenue. They all sit in CRO, right? They sit in that. So the, of course the focus is get new customers. That's kind of what it is. I mean, even, I think maybe even the CRO is shifting a bit to be like, well, actually the quality of customer, you're gonna actually pay attention to the quality of customer that comes in. Are they the right fit? It's not grow at all costs. It's actually grow, uh, with the right. Customers, so they should be even comped and measured on, you know, some element of durability and and so on. And if, and if that sort of takes hold, that will sort of pave the path, I think for more partner leaders to take a, take a a view of. I even think, and a, you know, what would, what would it be like if a program came out of success? If partner programming came out of success? Meaning, so. To unpack that a little bit, you're now talking about having partners work with your customers to generate value. And that could mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

Tom Burgess: 20:03

Right.

Rob Sale: 20:04

But agencies nowadays are building the stacks. So you're talking about you want your integration reten, or integration adoption rates to go up. Well, who can do that? Well, you, you market and you push that. Agencies can do that. like they, they're the ones that bring'em in, bring in technology a lot of times, or get somebody that isn't on that technology to get on that technology in a really meaningful way. Right? And then develop that in there. So it's like, work with the customers, develop value, define what that looks like, show, show that retention upsells, um, that you can literally build services in a business around. And then, um, take that learning and all those use cases, those, those great wins and all that, and then give it to sales and go, now blow it up

Tom Burgess: 20:59

Yeah.

Rob Sale: 20:59

versus try to blow it up. And sales is like, well, do we have a joint customer? No, not really. Well, what do we have? I don't even understand my joint value proposition and nobody's enabled me properly. Like how many times have you heard that and you're just throwing stuff out to the partner? It's like putting a, I don't know, a professional team out, out there without a coach and it's going, just go play everybody I hope you win. It's like good luck, right? Like it's, it's kind of, it's kind of ridiculous.

Tom Burgess: 21:29

yeah,

Rob Sale: 21:30

Think how, how much better. Go to market team would be prepared to scale that partnership in a meaningful way.

Will Taylor: 21:36

I think the crux of the, the problem is like a lot of companies were in this growth at all costs, um, mentality. And so if we've been doing that, let's say the last 10 years for all the hyper funded SaaS companies that are out there. That means that all of the enablement is aligned with that. And so, you know, all the sellers are enabled to just generate revenue and you know, obviously they, they probably care about value for the customer, but In the back of their minds, that's probably not the main thing that they're focused on. They're focused on their pipeline and getting their commission. And so I think that's the starting with the success piece and like having a customer raise their hand and say, Hey, do you partner with this organization? Or if you bring even just an idea, an initial idea, and they validate it. They're excited about it and if they're a bigger customer, they're gonna get value out of it. Then it's like, okay, well we can definitely roll this out to other customers, and it's kinda like. Starting from there. It, it's almost like a no-brainer where it should be focused on that and not just an idea for pipeline generation with another company. Instead it's this joint value to a customer. Um, I think we have a, a lot of work to do to help the, the ecosystem to focus on value, but I think companies are waking up to that because they're starting to focus more on. The retention of revenue. And so CROs are thinking hopefully more through this value lens. Um, and uh, I even have like a personal example. I won't go through the, the whole thing, but we started a partnership recently and we brought the idea to one of our top shared customers before we did any go go-to-market functions. And we validated with them, Hey, this is what we're thinking, let's like talk about your experience and um, Their excitement was next level. Uh, now this person's generally pretty, pretty excitable, but regardless, they were super excited and they were al already thinking like, if you get an integration, this is going to like save me so much time, like generate so much more revenue. And so I. If we did the opposite, which a lot, what a lot of companies do is they bring the idea, they get their sales teams engaged and they start just trying to generate pipeline, which might work. Um, but it'll eventually fizzle out and there's no strategy there. It's just, let's do some transactional introductions and then go from there. But it's not value oriented. Um, yeah, my point there is like, I think we're gonna going to have to do a lot of, um, education for the space because sellers. Are not selling in that way or have not been selling in that way. And success teams are probably in a similar boat where they're just focusing on just retain the revenue and upsell, like to obviously deliver value, but yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like focus on the numbers first'cause that's what we are holding you accountable for. Um, I'm excited for that future and there are early signs of that as well.

Tom Burgess: 24:34

just keep picturing like I love the, the call out on, on like SaaS companies in the past 10 years, just being in this like land and expand, build partnerships. Like I, I can tell you numerous examples where like, I've seen it firsthand and now you're like, we can't. We can't even manage all these partners anymore. We've got like six PMs and a thousand partners. So, you know, like the, you, I just see this like, whether, whether you're talking about like, do we, you know, try and land and like just like grow, grow, grow. But now you've got a tidal wave going towards like churn rates and now it's like, okay, or are we focus on like just landing really easy? Well now you've kind of coming back like you haven't built enough pipeline. So I, I guess like to me, one of the questions I wanna ask you, Rob, is. Thinking about the idea of getting, or going back to the idea of like, how can we make partners at almost like the central point to help kind of exude trust in, in an ecosystem? What are the activities that we can do? Is it, you know, something where we build this kind of like partner round table, you know, not too many partners, but we're putting them in front of product. We're putting them in front of cx. And if you're willing, it's like someone that could come in and be like, Hey. We're not, we're not trying to change how you go to market here, but here's where like, our partnership can help you CX or help you sales and, and trying to build almost like microprocesses from there. Like I, to me, to me, ideally, I would be putting the partner in front of these teams, in front of these leaders to be like, here's how we can help. Versus like me theoretically saying CX like, Hey cx, do you wanna reduce churn numbers? Yeah. Okay. Here's a partner that can help. I, I would love to hear it from the partner side first.

Rob Sale: 26:19

Yeah. And, uh, I mean, oh man, there's so much to unpack between what both of you just said, but there, there's, just even going back to your comment, will, and then Tom, um, to your question. You made a comment with regards to scale and you just, you, you, that's how it is from an enablement point of view and so on. How many times have you heard a senior leader go? Well, I've tried partners, but it failed. I, I've had conversations in the first month that I've had where it's like I. What have we tried? Well, you guys were really good at generating a bunch of leads, but they didn't really convert anything. Well, I wonder why that is. Right? It's'cause you just, there's no story together. There's no value equation together. We don't know who we should be reaching out to. We don't know who we should be targeting. You just told us you want more leads'cause it looks good. And so we put them in there and nothing converted. So. You know, CEO went, well that was kind of a waste of time, right? Like how, how many times have you heard that, right? Versus if you went the other way and started like actually developing that value equation with the customers, and then you put it out there to the, to the other, to the sales teams and the other partners and go, this is the story you sell and it's rock solid, and you've got proof points and you've got whatever. How much easier would that be able to scale? How much more successful would partner programs be? Right. So to your point, will, I just wanted to make that, um, how do you build trust? Yes. Get the partner involved at every level from product Right. To communications, to marketing and so on. And I, I know HubSpot's doing a lot more getting. Partners involved in major releases and communicating it or getting them involved to see things. Um, which is, which is so good because you have an army of people that wanna.

Tom Burgess: 28:21

Yeah.

Rob Sale: 28:22

Uh, make it better. We, we are all working towards the same thing, right? So, uh, they see a lot of, um, they see a lot and they have eyes and ears that, uh, can pick up. What maybe you're won't, won't, have an opportunity to because they are, have a different level of trust or because they have a different level of relationship than you do. And that's okay. Just recognize it and nurture it. Right. Bring'em along, uh, for the ride, so to speak, on so many other levels, not, not keeping them to a transactional relationship. It's just gotta be more strategic and I, big ecosystems, that's hard. You can't do it for everybody, but you know, there, there's still ways to do it. To your point, Tom, so.

Tom Burgess: 29:10

Yeah. And, and that's, that's what I want the audience to pick up on is that when you, especially working with agencies, you will inherently get Some of the most honest and transparent, um, relationships in the ecosystem, right? Or just like in your job and in, and so being able to like tap into that is, I think, really important. And there's no stopping to the benefit. Like, I, I remember this, you know, if. From like an integration standpoint, if it was a wishlist, like you would always make sure that my voice was heard. And I think that's what a lot of partners just want is sometimes like to have their voice heard. Um, but then actually actioning that is, is sometimes a challenge. Uh, and more importantly, it's a challenge that's worth taking on. Um, and, and to me, that's where I start to think about how can I build this, this almost like Advisory board of partners to have access to the proper outlets, which is sales products CX support, like to help drive a more aligned system. And that's, that's it.

Rob Sale: 30:18

Well, that's a good tell whether a program is like, complete Partners are completely strategic, strategic, to their their go-to market to their, their, their, you know, to their goals, uh, to the customer's value when there's, you know. Partner advisories and the ability to have access. I think I, you know, I, I put a LinkedIn post one time about this. It's like, you know, what are those seven things, right? That you, you, you gotta be solving big problems. You gotta be investing in them all a day, uh, every day in your partners every day. But you also have to provide access.

Tom Burgess: 30:53

right.

Rob Sale: 30:54

that's just not to your sales team, that is to your product team, to your success team and so on. Um, that's such a huge win and you gotta help, you know, um, train them up and, and get'em to the point where they can be successful and build a business around you. Like, I mean, that's, I think, Tom, I think back to when we started partnering. I mean, our first six months was just about and will, you were right there because you were in the operational weeds with Tom. It was just about building what is the thing you are building around the tech.

Tom Burgess: 31:31

Yeah.

Rob Sale: 31:31

It was just getting to the point of what can I package up and build around you? So I guess a tip for any of the agencies that are out there that are trying to evaluate whether or not they wanna partner with somebody, ask the question, what is it I'm going to build around you? And if they can't really tell you. If they can't give you a path and show you in enablement, you will do 1, 2, 3, and you will come out like this. And let me show you all the success stories of who has built around that. I would pause, right? Or maybe it's a really big opportunity and you wanna be in on the first ship and, and you're willing to take that effort, but it's gonna be a grind and it's gonna be nasty. But you might get there and you might win big time. So you just gotta evaluate those things.

Tom Burgess: 32:20

Yeah. And to, to at least answer the second portion of that, you know, for,'cause I, I would say right now, you know, a lot of my experience is like we're on the front side of that. Um, you know, I can, I can help you bundle or build services that will generate more revenue dollars and have you be at the, the cusp of, or one of the first partners to be able to offer this not only to your customers, but to our, like our traditional customer base. But to me like the, the, for SaaS co or SaaS companies that have a program that are struggling to kind of get to that point. Just be transparent. Like, you know, there is, there is a value to some of these partners coming on board in the early stages because if you're, if you're taking what we're saying to heart, they will most likely have a seat at the table to help you get there and help build and have a say in the program and have a say in the mix. And I think that's really important just to like, I. Once again, whatever, whatever kind of milestone or or maturity phase you're at in your program is being able to say like I am, I'm relying on my partners in this phase to help us figure out what this is, figure out what the solutions or like what we can build around or what we can integrate with or how our product evolves versus like now we're in a more mature phase, like, great, I know how to, I am relying on my partners to help kind of like Hit this, hit churn numbers because we have accreditations like HubSpot does.

Rob Sale: 33:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Burgess: 33:41

know, there, there's, you've gotta think about it in this phased approach, but the one thing that never changes is if you approach The partner lens in a very transparent manner, you can kind of build that excitement and tape, or I would say build and taper excitement, which is something that will, and I talk, I mean the honeymoon phase is, is just exuding here. Like great. Three months later I'm like, where are the leads? What are we doing? So you just gotta be consistent and patient.

Rob Sale: 34:07

Yeah. No, I like that. I like that being transparent and open and honest is, is fundamental because, yeah, a lot of agencies will, they're good at solving problems and they will take on that challenge, and they don't see it as a, an obstacle. What I would just say as like, if, like Tom or Will was out there starting a, a business and a, and a program right from the, from the ground up. I know that you've done it before and I know that I can go along with that ride with you and, and get there. I even if there's nothing there to begin with, right. So just ask those questions, just dive a little deeper. I know it all sounds exciting and to get caught up and just dive a little deeper. Have you done that before? What? Show me it right. Well then I'm gonna, because that's a pretty big strategic bet.'cause you're probably time to value as a partnership is longer'cause you're creating it from zero. Right? So, but it's still not a bad thing. And every, you know, uh, startup needs to, you gotta start somewhere, right? So, Yeah. it's not a bad thing, but it's just at the end of the day, just ask some questions because I hear a lot. I mean, there's 1200 app partners in the, in the ecosystem. Every single one is trying to partner up with other agencies and, and so it's overwhelming. Who, who do I trust, who do I double down on? I mean, that could be an episode in itself, right? So

Tom Burgess: 35:36

Yeah.

Will Taylor: 35:37

So Rob, you're saying that you wanna partner with us, that's'cause you trust us already and

Rob Sale: 35:45

That's right. Will that you? Yes, I'm, I'm glad you read through the lines,

Will Taylor: 35:50

Point taken. No, um,

Rob Sale: 35:52

Yes, but, but it comes back to trust. Will see this is the trust

Will Taylor: 35:57

that's right. Well, the way we, the way we started this episode, it sounds like you trust me a lot. So,

Rob Sale: 36:06

Yeah,

Will Taylor: 36:07

any other thoughts before we dive into the, the tactical insight? Rob or, or Tom?

Tom Burgess: 36:17

No, I, I mean, it's just amazing being able to kind of like have the parallel experiences that Rob brings with, with us. Like we're truly living out like the opposite paths and, and like what I'm hearing. Is like in, in partnerships, like you can, we've talked about a lot of different kind of areas today, and I think that can be overwhelming in nature. It's like, well, if I really go gung-ho on acquisition, that means like we might have a rock solid pipeline, but they might be marketing qualified. What is the churn? You are always gonna think of the what ifs, but the most important thing to really dig into at its core is like what are you build? Like how are you building your partnership to Last with trust and like the, like, I'll say it again and I'll say it a thousand more times. Like programs aren't built in a day successful. Like pieces of programs aren't built in a day. Like if your enablement right now is simply like, Hey, read this PDF, that's great, but like be honest about it and be kind of like transparent in where you're heading from there and how partners like Six and Flow where other agencies or integration partners can help. It's like, I need your help. Versus like, Hey, I need leads. That's not it. I need your help. So, um, yeah. I just wanna harp on the idea of like, really, you really gotta think about like partnerships, no matter the milestone or kind of the phase that you're at in really basic, simple, core based items, which is relationship building

Will Taylor: 37:47

I love it.

Rob Sale: 37:50

A hundred percent Tom, and just to add to that. I think at this time, especially economically and so on, it's like what you're seeing is a lot of companies that are built on acquisition only strategies, whether it's your sales team or your partner program, those are fizzling out and dying. Those that are built on value. And value comes from relationships and delivering value equals trust. Like if you deliver value, you're going to earn trust. Um, those are the ones that are gonna last and when tough times hit and so on, you, your program better be in a position. You're not only your program, but strategically as a company. Um, value oriented right through. And that includes, you know, making sure sales is targeting the the right Fit customer and not gonna churn out. And your partners have a seed at the value center of that equation with your customer. And everyone's working towards value.'cause that's what's going to win, period at the end of the day, especially when times get tough. So, um, if you haven't made that shift, make it now, make it fast. Uh, you need to, you need to be in the value game, not, uh, the acquisition only game.

Tom Burgess: 39:13

Yeah. And, and the one, the one last piece I'll add to that too is, is like you're never gonna understand what value is until you like, start trying some things. So like, I think about what I'm doing now and, and trying to bring like Unique partner offers to our sales team to leverage in the sales cycle. Like to me, you know, like I can, whether I'm in the beta phase or like it's been through testing and we're kind of like working on the system, what I'm trying to do is, is build avenues and paths for our partners to like see that we care. Um, and, and like that's all caveated with the The expectation that like, I don't know how this is going to go, but I've gotta start somewhere. And w and the, the long tail kind of like win there, is that the more I can like go to a sales team member or a CX team member and, and just be like, Hey, here's a partner offer. Here's a partner offer, here's a partner offer that they can use and leverage. Then they'll start to kind of pick up on that. Aha. You've got to like, it's like the idea of leading a horse to water. You can't force it to drink, but if I can bring this horse. A water bottle every day. Maybe they'll drink from it. And so like repetitive is going to re, repetition's gonna be key and, and just like continually try, because I've experienced it, will and Rob have experienced it. Like once someone catches on to what a partnership can do for their role, I think that's a really important key, like what they can do to help them. It'll be easy skating from there, asterisk, but it should

Will Taylor: 40:41

Nice. Um, so Rob, we, uh, we leave our audience with a tactical tip, and so we covered a lot of ground today, but I think what we could focus on is that trust building aspect. That was a common theme throughout. What would be your number one tactical tip that You would give someone, if they're trying to build more trust with service partners, um, would it be, you know, asking a specific hard question? Is it, you know, running a specific program? Is it talking to a specific person in the company? What does that look like? Um, and what's, yeah, that, that tactical tip from your perspective.

Rob Sale: 41:19

Uh, I'll bo I, I'll borrow an, a thought and idea from Tom that he said earlier and, and, um, one of the, I would be thrilled if a SaaS company came and, and said, Hey, partners, we have a retention problem. We need to solve it with you, and we want your ideas. How are we gonna solve it together? Literally sat you down at the table and started going around and figuring that equation out. So if, if somebody out there has done that dmm me, I wanna hear about that. But if a SaaS company, um. I bet you, you would just learn so much, even just the exercise, whether, what, like what would you lose from doing something like that? Right? Like, I don't know. So I, I would say, I would say get your success leader, uh, sit that, get that equation going. And uh, like you said, Tom, you gotta start somewhere. Let's see where it goes.

Tom Burgess: 42:27

Yeah.

Will Taylor: 42:28

Amazing. Thank you, Rob. Um, I feel like we could either break this into two parts. We could do another part. Uh, we will definitely do that in the future. But thank you for your wisdom and of course for starting both of our partnerships journeys, both Tom and I's Journeys, uh, for being a great leader and, um, guiding us to the point that we're at today, both of us.

Rob Sale: 42:56

You guys are rock stars. Um, I

Will Taylor: 43:00

Thank you

Rob Sale: 43:00

much. Anyways. It was fun, fun, gentlemen.