Episode 56 Strength and Sport Science with Bob Alejo, the LA Angels' Assistant Strength Coach

We just wrapped up a super-fun chat with none other than Bob Alejo, the new assistant strength conditioning coach for the Los Angeles Angels MLB team. Get ready to be a fly on the wall as you gain exclusive access to the life and experiences of this esteemed sports professional. From his time at CSU to his stint with the US Olympics, Alejo's journey is as insightful as it is inspiring. We discuss the nuances of working with college athletes versus the pros, and underline the significance of intent and perspective in a satisfying career.

Timeline:

2:08 College vs. Pro athletes – the life of a strength coach

10:00 The human side of “training” athletes – there are reasons beyond “training” that affect an athlete’s performance

14:03 In sports, can you be too strong? Can you carry too much muscle mass? 

15:03 Yes, you can work on strength too much, but being “too strong” is never a problem.

16:08 You don’t want to train for strength that it detrimentally affects skill acquisition or maintenance

23:58 Alejo’s view of Shohei Ohtani

27:42 Dr Ricci talks about the data from our collaboration with the UFC PI and Nova Southeastern University

32:41 Never let strength and conditioning interfere with training for the SPORT

33:56 How often do you think an athlete should do HIIT per week?

35:32 How often should athletes in the “podium” sports (i.e., run, bike, swim) do HIIT?

37:06 Polarized training – 80:20 ratio of low-intensity vs high-intensity work; there are always exceptions to the rule. 

Karla Antonio: female national class USA Cycling Masters Champion – doesn’t follow classic periodization; does up to 4-5 HIIT sessions per week; doesn’t follow the classic 80:20 polarized training; consumes a little over 3 g per kg of CHO daily (which is much lower than published guidelines); consumes 3 g per kg of protein daily (much higher than published guidelines).

45:04 – It is ok to sometimes substitute skill training (which is HIIT) with something ‘easier’ such as stationary cycling

52:51 – Trap bar deadlift – better than the squat? Alejo begs to differ.

58:10 – “Stay in your lane.” Why we shouldn’t use this as an argument.

59:34 – Bob Alejo wrote a scathing article against the “stay in your lane” bullshit. https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7106984751936270337/

64:42 – There’s a difference between “asking a question” and questioning someone.

Bob Alejo is currently the Assistant Strength Coach of the LA Angels MLB team. His past accomplishments include:

2019-2022: Senior Associate Athletic Director for Performance and Student-Athlete Welfare at CSU Northridge. 2017-2020: Director of Sports Science, Power Lift. 2011-2017: Assistant AD/Director of Strength and Conditioning, NC State, overseeing the strength and conditioning for the entire athletic department while coordinating the day-to-day efforts of the men's basketball team. During that time, the Wolfpack men’s basketball team earned two trips to the Sweet Sixteen in four NCAA Tournament appearances. 1993-2001 and 2009-2011: Director of Strength and Conditioning, Oakland Athletics, which included the “Moneyball” period. During those 12 years, he was responsible for all aspects of the organization's year-round physical preparation at both the MLB and minor league levels. 2010 Season: Strength and Conditioning Consultant, San Jose, Earthquakes. 2005-2008: Director of Strength and Conditioning, UC Santa Barbara. 1984-present: Alejo Athletic Performance Consulting. 1984-1993: Assistant, Associate Head, Head Administrator/Strength and Conditioning, UCLA, working with 23 men's and women's teams. During that time, the Bruins racked up 25 national championships and produced more than

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the sports science dudes. I am your host, dr Jose Antonio, with my inimitable co-host, dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. I know a lot of you download the podcast, but if you happen to be on YouTube which apparently not many people go on YouTube these days- Not so much. Yeah, like the show, we're also on Rumble, spotify and, like I said, apple Podcast. Our special guest today actually he's making a reappearance. We didn't get enough of him first time around is Bob Alejo.

Speaker 1: 0:35

And interestingly, I just found out because I was wondering where Bob is these days he's currently the assistant strength conditioning coach for the Los Angeles Angels MLB team.

Speaker 2: 0:44

Yeah, congrats, yeah, back to.

Speaker 1: 0:47

MLB, which is you know kind of really where you belong. This is your bread and butter.

Speaker 3: 0:53

Yeah, I think I think you're right. It was somehow just, you know, it vaporized in my head over the last year or so and I'm just kind of. It kept hitting me like, okay, I got to follow this a little bit and then it just things really fell into place. So it wasn't like I was out there diving and searching every day but all of a sudden it's here and it worked out great.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Hey, sometimes you know things fall into place and it works out perfectly. But you have really a stellar career and it's always good to pick your brain when it comes to strength conditioning. Actually, for about three years, you're the senior associate athletic director for performance and student athlete welfare at CSU and Northridge. Prior to that sort of a little bit overlapping, you were the director of sports science and power lift, which is kind of cool. And also you know you had some involvement in the working with the Olympics. This was the you did 80. Us Olympic team 2008. Beijing. 2012, london as the strength coach for the men's beach volleyball team, todd Rogers and Phil Dahlhauser. They got the fact. They got the gold 2008 right. Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Oh, wow. So you've worked with a lot of high end athletes and obviously at the college level, I mean you're working literally with hundreds of people. Now that you're with back to MLB, you're literally working with how many?

Speaker 3: 2:08

Well, I mean, I like to think I have a wider range of effect. But you know, I think even in the big leagues you're kind of setting, setting the foundation and message for the rest of the affiliates right, the minor league systems and all that. So you know, but, but, but during the season typically 25 or right in front of you, and then you have the 40 man roster, and so it's, you know it's the pros and it's it's right there in front of you. So it's a smaller group, but very individualized.

Speaker 1: 2:35

It's held a lot different than college, where you have multiple sports. You're dealing with both male and female athletes very young athletes so and also you're dealing with poor athletes in college. Well, a lot of them are poor there's some that are rich now, but you know a lot of them where as an MLB no one's.

Speaker 3: 2:57

That's a good point, that's a really good point.

Speaker 1: 2:59

I think the biggest difference is now if you know if someone wants to get in the as a work in the strength conditioning field, as a strength coach you know there's always talk of I want to be work with the pros, I want to work at the college level, I want to work at the high school level. Maybe I'll do one on one training. Explain, I mean, because you have a wealth of experience explain sort of the differences. I know with a lot of my students and Tony students. They have this idea that I want to work with proteins because that's cool and that's glamorous and there's not that many proteins.

Speaker 3: 3:32

There's not that many. No, there's not. Well, I think you know what I learned from folks like both of you is that you know you have to. You have to make sure that you've got a solid intent like what is your intent. And I think us, here, we're educators. You know we say coaches and you know, I think we're educators, that's what we try to do and I think, as we morphed, in fact I know, as we get older, we're all more about education and giving forth than anything right.

Speaker 3: 3:59

So I mean it's strength and conditioning. For sure, tony, we're fixers to right. I think the week will make you strong. You don't jump high will make you jump out. You're slow, will make you fat, you know, whatever might be. So I think the first thing is you got to get that focus and if you get that focus, that'll help you go to the next step, which is the pros, the college, whatever level you want, and that's that's really, I think, the key, because I've never really set out to go pro, to go college. I just set out to go to a good job, you know. You know you can help somebody win a championship, get stronger and get faster and get less injured, and all that really has been it. You work hard and things get going all of a sudden you're going to get recognized for what you do, as you are giving forward right, you're giving for. I think the other thing too is you know, you know, you know, you know you're going to be about the pros and they, you know.

Speaker 3: 4:48

For all of us here I would say that the best job in the world is the one that you think is the best job in the world. You know that. I mean there's, now that we're older and wider, we can say you know, there's, it's that you know there's plenty of high school jobs that are admirable and very noble and college jobs are that way, but not every one of those is great. Not every one of the college, not every one of the pro jobs you know is great. So I think it's it's, it's figuring out exactly that.

Speaker 3: 5:23

And you know, I think if you're looking for the glitz and the glamour and the money, all of us would agree that that's not the first thing you think of if you want to have the best career. I don't think any of us really. I mean, if you're debating about one job or another, the same job and what's more money than the other, that that perhaps can matter, but sometimes that doesn't matter either. You know, I just got a job, that's I only have to commute a little bit as down the street, versus, you know, getting a job in maybe New York, which doesn't help my family and my son who goes to high school right down the street here right, or my other son who works full time down the street over here. So and people talk about what's the biggest difference, the biggest differences between college and pros, that one you work with kids and the other one you work with adults and that is vastly difference.

Speaker 3: 6:12

The first thing that pops into your mind If you haven't been as aged as we are is oh, they're just older. But that's not the only thing that adults have. Adults have spouses, adults, children, and they every one of those guys is the CEO of themselves, right? Those contracts are big. They got a bunch of people that made it some monster, right? So sometimes not not getting a workout in is because your child has chicken ponds or it's your anniversary or you know, and you you're not.

Speaker 3: 6:47

You're not going to grab a guy because he's not doing that right, so there's, there's. You talk about nuance, it's not. I mean, we could talk about the training or not, but I think, more than anything, you know, if you, if you talk about training specifically, what do you think? Difference? Training is that one is not developmental. In other words, if you're in the big leagues, you're not going to develop yourself into a big leager. You're there, you're playing.

Speaker 3: 7:13

Now you can maybe perhaps help the training, make their career extend or make them less injured and everything, but I would say you need to be less of a risk taker. I use risk, that's probably not the term, but we're not. We're not all interested in doing whatever we can to make this guy jump higher or this girl jump higher and run faster, because likely they already do that, you know. So you're kind of your main focus is not that, and when the season's over they're gone, right. So you're, you know you're gonna be in touch with them, but they don't live there much like you know college now they can go to summer school and they stay on campus and all that and these folks have they're not going to have to do their jobs or jobs, so they're going to go do their business somewhere else at some point and show up here. But really I think you know my number one thing would be one's one is your work with adults and the other is you're working with kids.

Speaker 2: 8:06

No, I was just going to say too. I mean, when you bring that up, it is good reinforcement, bob like, because at the elite level I do think we lose certainly as a fan unequivocally. They lose the touch of them being human and an adult and nothing more than a robot that's supposed to perform at an elite athletic level with no other focus in life, no other interest in life, like that. If you looked at how NFL players have viewed that's it right, this was to go out, there they got to be hit.

Speaker 2: 8:33

They got to be faster, they got to be stronger, they got to be hungry. You know they can't make mistakes and I think we and then we hear a story of you know how they helped some kids on the side. We're almost surprised. But we definitely I think unintentionally, dehumanize them, sometimes without intent, is just these robotic athletes and and it's you forget that they got a lot of challenges every day, despite the fact that we think they're lucky and blessed you know, Well, let's, yeah, and they are right, and I think most of them feel that way.

Speaker 3: 9:07

I would say this though you know, let's, let's just take it forward Rather than when I started my career in the early 80s. Now we have technology, so let's just use that for a second. Let's say we're tracking an athlete. Right, let's say we're tracking an athlete and it's on where GPS and whatever else we got there and we're finding out that his velocities or her velocities are down and they're not jumping as high, and all that. You know, we, we get some plyometric. You know I mean this, this person's really not having some neural activation, and you know we talk about all the things that you guys have taught me about. And then you go, wow, it's get some training. All let's call me and you know, hey, you know she. You know you find sort of Julie, find you have a little problem right here. You're going to get some training, and you're like, what's really the problem? My son has got tonsillitis, so I've been up three nights in a row until midnight, and you know he's got to get surgery or pretty soon. So you're like, oh, so it's not training. So you know, those are the things that now you have to consider when you're.

Speaker 3: 10:15

You know, I mean, although we're delving much deeper into the, you know some of the mental aspects, or you know it could be as much as you know, my wife and I are getting along. My, my mom passed away, my, my brother's going through a bankruptcy and all these things that nobody sees right. I can't believe he dropped that pass. How's he not playing today? You know like he? He just didn't show up to camp. Well, you know, these that's between the coach and the manager and the GM and all that. They don't need to go home and we'll cover for you.

Speaker 3: 10:44

And it says, you know, unavailable. And that's is all we're going to talk about, right, which that's best part of it too. So it's not. You're right. I mean these, these people have lives and, again, you know they're the CEO of their own business, so they should have a little bit of say and how things go on. And you know the last thing you want to do is put yourself in a position that makes them do something, and then there's an adverse effect to whatever the heck, right? And then you get all the glitz and glamour you want because you're going to be in the paper the next day. Well, you know I felt, you know you look a little slow out there and you pulled up. You know how bad. Well, you know I was talking to, you know, the strength coach this morning. He felt like we should go for a run and, you know, maybe that could have been part of it. Like you know, now, now your name is on the ticker that you always dreamt about.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Yeah, you're far more inclined to get blamed than y'all credit. I'm sure you know.

Speaker 3: 11:38

Yeah, so you know there's some things to talk about there's, you know.

Speaker 3: 11:41

Then it gets deeper and deeper the more you go. But but you're right, I think we do de whom eyes and a whole bunch, and you know these people have the same problems we have, you know they, I mean, you know you hate to, you hate to dumb it down to something simple, but either making great money, have high incomes, but they still have problems. You know, I mean they're still humans and I find, in my, in my situation where I've been professionally and in the at the Olympic level, you know I find them way more human than you could ever suggest, you know. And so you, you, I've not really run into that, but I've heard about them. We all have, you know very Well, I don't know tough to work with athletes, you know they just think they think that that this is who they are instead of what they do, right, right. And I've ran into the to some great human beings that were just very generous with the kind of people they were and just happened to be that elite level athlete.

Speaker 1: 12:46

Questions. Bobby Sure, and this can apply to any sport. Okay, if you're gonna be too strong, can you have too much muscle mass?

Speaker 3: 12:56

Never.

Speaker 1: 12:57

Okay, let me, before you answer that, the reason I asked you is we had, we all know, juan Carlos Santana. He was on our show earlier and he said what are strength coaches paid to do? Well, they're paid to make you stronger. I mean sort of, in a simplistic way, correct. So you know, he said well, okay, a basketball player comes up to him and says I want to increase my vertical jump. And he's like, well, why? Well, because I want to jump higher. And he's like, well, when you shoot from the three point line, you're not really getting off the ground much. You're not a volleyball player and you're not dunking the ball, so why do we need to increase your vertical jump?

Speaker 1: 13:35

So it goes to the question of how strong do you really need to be? And, like with football, well, let's put muscle on you. We need lean mass, lean mass. Okay, well, to a point I would imagine that's important. But then there might be a point where it's detrimental, based on, you know, the muscle to bone ratio and all that fun stuff. So it's a broad question. You know how would you address it and you could pick whatever sport you want. You could pick baseball.

Speaker 3: 14:04

Well, I mean, I don't think that the picking note went on this, I think Tony would agree, you know, I mean he's nodding his head, like you know. I know that Jim Schmitz used to own the place called the sports palace. Do you know that? If you're familiar with the name of Jim Schmitz and the Olympic lifting, no, he was one of the greatest of all time Coaches, was an Olympic team coach and all that. But he owns a place called sports palace. We're actually competed. Sometimes you'd have these me to be like, you know, 20 people in it. There'd be an Olympian, me and somebody else, you know, because he was crazy. But he used to make a shirt that had like a like a bicep pose and it said you can never be too strong. And I agree, you can never be too strong. Strength is never a debit, you know. I mean now people would.

Speaker 3: 14:48

Oh, yeah, you know you don't need so much strength and you can, you can. You know you can spend too much time on it. Well, that wasn't the question. The question is can you never? Can you ever?

Speaker 2: 14:55

be strong. They give a question.

Speaker 3: 14:57

Yes. The question is no. You can never be too strong. The answer is yes, you can work on strength too much.

Speaker 2: 15:05

Great pride.

Speaker 3: 15:07

Right. So, and I think the only time that you know, when you get to the, the muscularity that that bodybuilders have, like, that's just not well for them. It works out perfectly. If you're trying to tumble or jump up for a pass, or dunk a ball or, you know, run the run, the 510 to the 510, 5 drill, that's going to be tough for you, you know so, but I think in in a, if it cuts off your range of motion and it and it takes away from your hypertrophy level, has now taken away from your ability to perform sport, specific skills, then yes, that is a detriment. Yeah, so I think, yeah, that's the. That's the big debate.

Speaker 3: 15:48

I think people like to hear the question differently so they can make their point yeah, you can spend too much time or something else. You, you can get so strong and you only need to be so strong, to be so fast and all that Like. Well, that's not the question. The question is is strength ever a problem? The answer is no. A lack of it, yes, but I'd say no, yeah, no, I just quickly.

Speaker 2: 16:10

I love that answer because and I think JC meant this too Like his point was if you're training to the point right when your volumes, your intensity is so high and your load is so high that skill acquisition or even make skill maintenance is being negatively impacted, then you're doing too much. But if you can do it in one or two sets, obviously you can't. But if, hypothetical, you could and you can continue to make maximum strength gains, then it would not be detrimental. I agree with you and I think distinguishing between those two is a really important point.

Speaker 3: 16:42

Yeah, and get back to the intent, right. If your intent is to be more powerful, at some point you've got to realize the equation has time involved with it. So if you're trying to squeeze water out of a rock by trying to get your squat to go from 500 to 600, then that's going to make you more powerful. The likelihood that you be better off increasing speed by point something seconds is probably your better bet to get a better power output. So that's the only thing I can ever think of. If you're thinking we're just going to continually get stronger, to get faster, you can monitor that. We know that. We've always done that. Now we just have a better account of what that is. But then that's the idea that you handle strength too much. But here's what I see.

Speaker 3: 17:35

I answered this question the other day. Like strength coaches, they still spend too much time in strength and I said I don't think so as much anymore. I think we've got the last to be training. We've got all kind of time in megas and tracking. I don't think they do. In fact, I think it's gone the other way. I think they're doing too much work with lighter weights too fast, trying to get powerful and in the end. We know this too, that they spend so much time doing light weights so fast that they get the opposite effect their power starts to decrease because they're not feeding the other side of the equation.

Speaker 1: 18:08

So anyway, Let me ask you this more of a have you worked with tennis players before?

Speaker 3: 18:14

You have haven't.

Speaker 1: 18:15

Yeah. So you have a tennis player, great baseline game, but the serve is average, right, they're not gonna beat you with a serve. So say coach, hey, I need more velocity in that ball on that first serve. Obviously there's skill involved. Obviously that's a high skill movement, but there's also you gotta generate power. So if you are the skill coach, as working with the strength and conditioning coach, there's only so much time of the day where he or she still has to practice tennis. I mean, that is the main thing. How do you divvy up that time between okay, we're gonna do some weight work, but we also need to do skill work? Or there's not a clear cut answer, because obviously each individual athlete will respond differently.

Speaker 3: 19:03

So thoughts you just outlined the discussion just right there. You said it all. We only have so much time. What's your intent? What's the value, what are we getting out of that? And then you just come to a decision. And sometimes, joey, those decisions are yeah, it's probably not in our best interest to do it then, because she's got a great baseline game, she's playing, she's healthy, you know, let's leave it alone. Or if he says I think we can score more points that way, okay, well, here's what it's gonna take.

Speaker 3: 19:39

I've had this conversation in baseball before where we had a player that was probably not well, probably was average speed, but they were gonna end up getting about 40 homers and they eventually did and get about 120, 130 RBI's, right. So the idea is that the guys behind him we call it what's it called? Like jamming up the bases, like we can't. You know, we can hit the ball somewhere, but we can't run faster than he is in front of us, and basically what the adage is and they said we need to make it faster. Well, this was during the season. So I said, okay, well, what is your? What are you trying? Well, we need to get him to, you know, score from second on a base hit and all this other stuff. I said, well, okay, well, I can do that, but that kind of training is not easy. I can do it and it's gonna take a while. But if we do that type of training to make him faster, all that work, that means he's gonna not give me 40 and 120. I mean it's gonna be like a 25 and an 80. Oh well, we can't have that. I said, well, you can't have both. I mean that player's a wooly maze, you know what I mean. Like you can't produce those guys, you know, he's a, some of these guys you see today. Like that's not what we're doing, you know, and so we can't have that. And I said, well, I mean that's what's gonna happen. So who is it worth it? Then it's not Like, hey, well, just you gotta settle with that. Then right, same kind of thing and those discussions.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Now the performance unit has to include the coach. For the very reason you just talked about, there's only so much time to practice baseball, tennis, golf, badminton, wrestling, gymnastics. What else can you put into that? That's not going to jeopardize or compromise or commitment. I had the same thing with the tracking. We had the, you know, the GPS and all that.

Speaker 3: 21:37

And I was mapping out what I wanted to do in soccer for that practice and I said you just, you know, basically what I do is you give me the drills, I'll tell you what the cost of those drills are and we can tell you how long you're gonna do it. So I had this drill and he said that's just not enough time for that drill. And I said, well, you're gonna have to take that time out of somewhere else or add it somewhere else. But why are you saying that in the simplest, greatest answer I'd ever heard? Because that's not enough soccer, good point. Then I say, well, we can't do that, we'll leave that alone, then We'll pluck it out of somewhere else. And that's the value. I know this and I know I'm telling you guys this.

Speaker 3: 22:17

But for all you sports fans out there, these conversations have to have some context of sport. They can't just be time and units and numbers and percentages and our values and correlations. It's what does that actually mean? You know the soccer part and that's where the value of the coaches come in and you have to understand what that all means. To be able to speak soccer, speak volleyball, speak football. You gotta speak that language so that you can get the word across the best way. And that was, I mean, shooting, my 39th year. That was one of the most riveting responses that I've gotten to somebody about. But a sport and strength and conditioning question, like well, that's just not enough soccer, and I understand that game very well, so I said, can't have that.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Then Can I, tony? I want you, after I asked Bobby this question about baseball, this sort of is a baseball fan. I want you to talk about the data we've collected from the UFC PI, because a lot of it is related to this. But this is my question in terms of baseball. I'm not a big baseball fan today. I used to be a huge fan and you would know these names because we're about we're the same generation. I used to follow the Washington senators. That's how I remember Frank Howard Back then.

Speaker 2: 23:42

I think there was Harmon Kilibrew.

Speaker 1: 23:44

He was a great hitter. I even remember watching Roberto Clemente.

Speaker 2: 23:47

I mean that's we're going way back. What?

Speaker 1: 23:51

So I kind of lost track of baseball and I started to follow more football and track and field. But anyways, my question is this there's a Japanese guy who can pitch and he can hit an absolute unicorn. Why do we never see that in baseball, and particularly you will never see that in American baseball, whether it's height, whether it's travel college or the pros? Talk a little bit about how you view Shohei Otani and what I mean. He's injured now, but what the hell? He was ripping up the league with his pitching and his hitting Best hitter by far.

Speaker 3: 24:26

Yeah, I mean, look, I so maybe a couple of quick. I think you see that a lot at the younger ages, because it's, this is the way it is, you know, I mean, and I don't think it's. It might be a little bit different now. But back, you know, 20, 30 years ago, your pitcher right, it was probably your shortstop when he wasn't pitching. Right, it was probably your quarterback on the football team and it's probably your point guard on the baseball team, I mean on the basketball team, the best athlete, yeah, yeah. So he, you know, and then when he wasn't pitching, he would hit. Otherwise, you guys, chances of winning was going to be reduced. And then I think, as they get older, they get kind of specialized in what they are, but very few are so good at both, you know.

Speaker 3: 25:09

I mean, think about football. Another perfect example, I mean I think just the it's likely just the stressor of those levels being so great that you couldn't do both. I mean, think about all the, all the running backs and wide receivers that played defense too. They were really good. You know, ken Norton Jr is a perfect example. You know who was a great linebacker in football for us at UCLA? He was a fullback who scored like 30 touchdowns or something in a senior year, like he's really good, but you, just you get to a point where you don't do that.

Speaker 3: 25:42

I think that's why I think at some level it's just allowed, but I don't. I mean, we don't even hear about it, like we don't even hear about it in America, to your point of, like a senior in high school or somebody in college, maybe somebody might DH, but there's so much going on at pitching and there's so much going on with hitting that it just gets so much in there and he is, yeah, I mean I think the unicorn gets thrown out there too many times. But I mean, who knows where that guy is. There may be somebody to be able to do that. But I think they get to that point where they got to decide like, if I'm this good, like I'm gonna be really good on this side of the ball or really good on this side of the ball. That's probably how it ends up.

Speaker 3: 26:33

So which side of the ball.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Do you think he's better at?

Speaker 3: 26:38

I have no idea. I mean, I don't know that he's any. I don't know how you, I don't know how you. That would be a pitching coach, hitting coach thing, like I as much as I've been involved in the game and played. I think it's one of those Kobe or Michael Jordan, michael Jordan or LeBron and then you sit there and you just debate until it's it stays tied forever, right, because I think the argument's pretty balanced, I would Apparently apparently he's a good center field and too.

Speaker 3: 27:07

I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not. I am not putting myself in the roast for that one. Like I would pick one side. I just he's unbelievable. I mean, I mean, that's again another term that's used too often, but this one is almost not believable.

Speaker 1: 27:27

Yeah, yeah, tony. Talk a little bit about the data we've collected with the UFC PI and how some of the data this is real world data. These aren't randomized controlled trials but talk about that data in terms of how it applies to MMA training.

Speaker 2: 27:43

Well, a good deal of the data that we have currently these guys is related to body fat company. You know most of the body fat and the weight cutting, so not exclusively, but we're putting together more data and collaboration with them. But I think the important part goes to what Bob said earlier. Okay, there's very little utility in any information in human performance training If you cannot collaborate what needs to be done and needs to be addressed first on the skill side and fully understand the volume, the intensity, the training and the scheduling of what goes on on that side first. So, coach, who said to you that's too little soccer, until you can understand and strengthen conditioning, we can take all these numbers right and we can get the body fat. We're working with a lot of boxers down here too and getting the you know a lot of work in force production, testing of force, anaerobic power and so forth. I think the key is taking the data that you have. As to your point earlier, bob, finding out where there may be potential places that we can augment or advance those particular qualities, but having to couple that with what's going on already in total training volumes, because there's when you come into fight performance, particularly the field of MMA you're not training, it's not boxing in a sense, where you're doing the variety of skill training and different drills and then bed work and then mix, and then light sparring and maybe some road work. These guys are training three or four disciplines almost every day. Accordingly, their training volumes are so significant. What we have to do with that data is say, okay, first, a lot of it's we used in the weight cutting side with the UFC PI. We've taken a look at those averages. So what are we gonna do to try to make that more effective? Well, we could present, certainly, nutritional protocols, training protocols. Are they gonna follow it? Hopefully?

Speaker 2: 29:45

Secondarily, we have to again address the primary objective, which is skill acquisition. And until the strength or the performance coach puts out and looks at the total training volumes of time in the gym, time on the midst time in the cage, you can't adjust an effective or you can't develop an effective performance program. We are reduced in our side, joey, to such a minimal dose for maximum result because of those sheer volumes. So the data that we have, where maybe there are potential weakness, right, okay, guys got outstanding endurance, can throw 200 punches around, but can't knock over a milk cart. Well, maybe we can help that quality, maybe we could potentiate that quality a little bit more To an extent.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Like you said earlier, bob, we can't we're not gonna take the guy who is batting at one level, get him faster and then allow them to continue to hit, or maybe vice-versa. Maybe we can improve their endurance a little bit by taking off some weight that need not be there, by using a cost-to-set approach. In their training capacity they're already too strong. They already got plenty of power. So what do we do? We go to the lighter loads, we go to the short arrest intervals. So I think all we can do with the data we have is it has to be presented to the. It should be presented to the head coach of the team. Talk and great discussion with them, ask them what they're working on and this is what I always did with Ray Longo and then just simply said here's what we know. What do you think you wanna do with it? He'll tell me, and then we adjust the program accordingly.

Speaker 2: 31:24

We're getting some really valuable data in collaboration with the UFC PI, right, but again, they have the capacity to. They have the coaches on site so they can collaborate directly with a lot of the coaches as well. But nevertheless, to me, what I've learned through the years, the problem in strength and conditioning is people think they are the head coach or the skill coach or the bench coach, when most of the time they're the bullpen coach and no more than a bullpen coach.

Speaker 1: 31:51

So you got it once you realize that you could be far more effective.

Speaker 2: 31:55

You know, that's at least in my discipline, it's a little different. In track and field it's a little different in, I think, american football. These guys don't have off seasons, like you all do, yeah. So nevertheless, take the data we have and see what we can do in concert with the skill coaches, because a lot of skill coaches in fighting have a negative impression of MMA I'm sorry of strength coaches for the right reasons.

Speaker 3: 32:21

You did. Oh, she got that yes.

Speaker 2: 32:23

Tracy, craning volumes. Tracy, crazy training techniques, competing, telling them how to skill train.

Speaker 1: 32:31

Believe me, I've seen it.

Speaker 2: 32:33

It could be a big problem and I was sighed.

Speaker 3: 32:36

Wow, I didn't know that I had. Well, I could say the answer that I did give you know when. And then I'd been working with this coach for a while. As soon as he said you know, well, that's just not enough soccer, I immediately said it wasn't even a thought, it just clicked okay. Well, then we gotta do something else. Where I'm not sure that answer would have been the same for me 10 or 15 years ago. I'm not saying I would debate it. I probably would have dove a little bit like well, perhaps this and that and I don't even do that anymore because of what you just said Like if this stops him from throwing one less punch, I can't do it. That's what I would.

Speaker 2: 33:13

Exactly that was my point and Joey's right. We're getting great data. I know we could do, and what do we do with it? We present here's what you got. Hey coach, here you go. Here's what it means. What can we? How can we help you? That has always been my approach you know, yeah, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 1: 33:29

Yeah, and I think you both point to the limitations of the involvement of the strength coach within the sport itself. And you know, and Tony and I have talked about this we do the simple stuff. Hey, sleep more. That helps. Here's some nutrition. That's pretty simple. That helps. Here's some supplements that could help. That's pretty simple. Pragmatic question about this is training frequency, and you could apply it to other sports or maybe to yourself or any individual you worked with. How often do you think an athlete and you can choose any athlete, endurance athlete, speed power athlete, whatever can do high intensity interval training per week, just ballpark how often per week do you think someone could do that?

Speaker 1: 34:15

Let's say it's a competitive athlete.

Speaker 3: 34:20

Well, you know. So we just finished this conversation about this very global approach to each person.

Speaker 1: 34:27

I'm gonna say once what do you think, Tony?

Speaker 2: 34:32

Well, I think it's contingent upon what their skill invests in. Like, if you're an boxer, everything you do is high intensity interval training, right? So then I would definitely go with Bob and say once because anything more than that is gonna blow him out of the water- Exactly, oh, I see, because training itself is so high intensity.

Speaker 1: 34:55

Well, right, Joey, these guys yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:57

You see some of the skill training sessions. They're throwing 50, 60 real leg round kicks on weight high pads While striking. This is going on for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, right, I mean. And then what am I gonna do? Run 200s with him, 10 to 15 of those three times a week.

Speaker 2: 35:16

You know it just, but maybe in baseball a bit more because of the time you know, bob would know better than I but look at also what are the demands of the skill application, and if it is absent they can probably take a little bit.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Let's do the. I'll call them the simpler sports the podium sports, run, bike, swim. What would it be for the run, bike, swim sports Once a week? Twice a week?

Speaker 3: 35:42

I can't you know, I mean, let's think about it and I do it myself, right, I mean, I do it and I've gone down to one time a week, just. But I mean, I think that the issue with high intensity training is not whether or not it works. It doesn't work for what you want it to work, you know. So you know. So for baseball, what would high intensity training do for baseball? Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. You know. I mean, like would they get fitter? Oh yeah, they get fitter, you know. But to do what I mean, so that that would be my thing. But but my first thought was what we just talked about, like what is that going to do with the swing and the run and the every day and all that stuff and baseball? Like I don't see it, I see I, you know.

Speaker 3: 36:37

Again, everybody starts coming up with these brand new terms micro dosing, shit. I was doing that 20 years ago, you know, just figuring it out just because here's how much time you have. Like you know, I was doing it with baseball, right, you know, guys, we finished our games at 10 o'clock at night, lessing get. What to do is wait for an hour, especially get two strikeouts and a foul ball caught, and we lost. You know like he wants to do that. So I went down to, like you know, Tim and lifting sessions, you body part only.

Speaker 1: 37:04

Are you familiar with the term polarized training? Oh, yeah, yeah, tony, are you familiar with polarized?

Speaker 1: 37:10

training, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's in the endurance world it's you do 80% sort of what's called steady state or sort of lower intensity training, and then the other 20% is is high intensity interval training, sprint interval training. So you supposedly in the in the endurance world that's the model that people use. So and the reason I asked you guys this question because I get asked that question a lot too and my Pat answers almost always hmm, I can't see anyone doing more than two hard interval training sessions a week. Okay, right, and I've been saying that for years. However, my wife is a national class cyclist and I asked her to track her training from February till she won the USA cycling nationals senior game. She was first place.

Speaker 1: 38:02

She does five interval, she does five hit sessions a week, averaging about eight to nine total training sessions per week. So 55% of her of her training sessions, or high intensity interval training, 55%. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like and actually my kids say the same thing. They're like how do you recover? And I still ask her that I don't know how you recover. She's like I just recover. I mean she sleeps well, right, she takes every supplement I tell her to take. She eats well. Her protein intake is like three grams per kilo. It's made me reevaluate the idea of how, how hard can you train? The frequency of hard training per week? I'm like twice a week and I've decided this is my answer. Now. It's as many times as you can, as long as you recover. And and here's- the thing, right.

Speaker 1: 39:00

And? And if she was losing I'd be like, okay, maybe we should dial it back, but she's winning, so right. I no longer give the one to two times per week anymore, because I'm staring at the data. I mean I actually compiled it myself. I'm like you're doing five hits training sessions a week. I mean distance.

Speaker 2: 39:21

This call a cycle. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 39:24

What distance is this she cycle she most of her races are time trial. So she does 510 K time trial. She was the USA cycling champion for the five game 10 K time trial. Okay, she does other things, like in the cycling world. You have gravel races and then you have road races. There's all sorts of different types of races. The one thing she doesn't like to do our mountain bike races. It's way too technical for her. But she sends me all our training every day. I'm like so you did another hit training session. She's like well, I guess you could call that. I mean every day. I'm like wow, you did another hit session. What the hell? I mean, if I did this on on a paddleboard, I would be dead. I would be dead. And here's the thing. I'm like I told him, if you're on the juice, to be like superwoman.

Speaker 3: 40:16

But we're in the door. How long, how long are those sessions she doing the typical to bought and stuff like four to six minutes?

Speaker 1: 40:22

Oh no much, much longer. What percentage heart rate is she at? Oh, she, I don't have the heart rate data, but it's. It's like between 80 to 95% of max heart rate and she's averaging 167 miles a week, peaking as close as as high as 300 miles a week. She taper, she'll taper a week before the race, but I'm, I'm, I think is, since I live with her, I know the volume she's doing.

Speaker 3: 40:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:51

And this goes completely against the polarized bullshit 80 20 ratio and all that.

Speaker 1: 40:57

I'm thinking basically her, her coach, she works with someone online has her train as hard as possible, dials it back a little, trains hard as possible, dials it back a little, and it's sort of a weekly up down, up, down, up down. There's not even periodization, that's what's. So. This is when you work with a real person like, okay, that that's the rules, that's not what the rules say in the textbook. And here's the other thing where the rules don't make any sense oh, carbohydrate intake. For endurance athletes get eight to 10 grams per kilo. I don't know a single human being that does eight to 10 grams per kilo.

Speaker 2: 41:32

There's no way. It's like 4000 calories a day.

Speaker 1: 41:35

Right. In fact you would say her carbon takes kind of low. For an endurance person she gets like three grams per kilo. I'm like that's what. I get, three grand.

Speaker 3: 41:45

I have two things to say about that. You said, you know, trans hard you can and then recover. I think that the answers that Tony and I give gave you were based on that right, tony, yeah, and that's about. That's about right, because it's so damn hard. So here's my question to you Isn't that all the same, though? Aren't we training athletes individually and see how that goes like?

Speaker 3: 42:05

I think Chris Beardsley put something out the other day and talked about high hypertrophy being, you know, based within set, within weeks, but at the same time, those with more muscle damage don't Don't adapt to high hypertrophy is good that those that have recovered so it's not just between sets, between days and weeks. So my question you know, so this is this is that normal thing? Like well, so what, though? Did that? You know, and you go like yeah, okay, well, I know, I know that there's, there's probably some little old grandma and the mountains in Tennessee that chewing tobacco and drank liquor every day of her life and she doesn't get cancer. Does that mean I should do the same thing? Like it's a pretty good chance? That's not going to work for everybody. So my question to you would be this then, if you were, if somebody came to you and asked for a hit program that were cyclists and let's say they're intermediate cyclists, right, yeah? And I would say, would you give them your wife's program or start them out with one session and say let's see how that goes?

Speaker 1: 43:10

I would not give them my wife's program, that's one, because I think it would kill most people. I would actually I, I would be more conservative and I would dial it up depending on how they adapt.

Speaker 1: 43:21

And in fact, I would probably start your basic any 80, 20 rule, you know, 80% easy, 20% really hard, and then figure out, god, maybe it could be a 50, 50 rule, right, you know. But I guess it's just interesting that when you and we've talked about this when you look at the literature obviously it's based on sort of broad generalities it's like it seems to work most of the time. And then you run into an athlete you know the show hey, oh, tani's of the world, people who like obviously can do much more hit training than quote the literature says, and it's like, okay, well, maybe that's what separates good people from really good people or great athletes, you know yeah, yeah, that's a great point, but in the case in her case in college case, though Joey hit is also part of her direct conditioning.

Speaker 2: 44:08

So what I meant earlier is if my fighters are going for five hit sessions with grappling mid work, bag work, you know, and then and then sparring.

Speaker 2: 44:18

I can't add to three or four sessions on top of that Right Of additional. You're already doing it, it's almost comparable to what color does and that she's got four or five hit sessions on that bike a week. Yeah, these guys got four or five hit sessions in their skill training all week. So I just can't add to that too much, because then I think I would be like if we took a wide receiver and put them on college psyched program.

Speaker 1: 44:44

Yeah, I don't think they're getting off.

Speaker 3: 44:46

The line is grimace very well, yeah, let me ask you this, tony, what? But if you wouldn't subject your wrestlers to hit grappling right what you're talking about Would you? Would there be an instance where you'd say that would be too hard, but I could put them on the bike?

Speaker 2: 45:06

Oh yeah, I think I do think so, yes, and I think that would be in many cases. The answer to that would be yes and I would look for a discipline. In my case that I'm sorry. Another modality, if you will, that isn't as weight bearing and joint taxing, because that's part of the problem to it's not just skeletal, muscle or cardiorespiratory or weight recovery, it's the pounding that the joints are taking. So now if I've got them five days in a week, kicking things, breaking things, have their risk, you know, get no banged up in striking, and now I'm putting them and running hills on top of that and that's just more joint wear and tear. So I think, bob, to your point, yes, I probably put him in the pool and none of them can swim well, so that's going to be hit.

Speaker 2: 45:54

So let's get one lap in, let's recover for 30 seconds and go get another lap, and at least we take some joint pressure off to.

Speaker 3: 46:01

You know I got a great. There's a great antidote for me. So we, you know I had my soccer team. You see a lot of and arguably over the, over those 10 years we had more more kids on the national team, olympic team and World Cup team than any school and anywhere. But we, you know, we went into probably the million it was, I don't came around, was rain or somebody went in probably the billion put them on the floor, took the, took the bleachers already out right and then they went back. So it's the giant gym right where you can get the other courts on the side of the court, and these guys they just played basketball, they ran all over the place and they were exhausted. Now the score was only like four to two. It couldn't shoot where the crap? And then they went all over the place and that was the thing. Like you know, they and they were having so much fun and laughing the whole time too is great point, just breaking it up with something they enjoy.

Speaker 3: 46:54

Really good point on that, and that's one thing to get away from the whole idea of what we're doing, this stuff. But I am Don't wouldn't, so I'm thinking about. It's still stressed, though, right, I mean, even though you're not banging and grappling. Then I got to think like, well, if you guys can do that, maybe that's almost of course we're talking about. You know, make, we're making up stories here, but how much more would they get fitter if you could say you could do? It's one of those things you know. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:26

Yeah, so I just that's a, that's a great. Well, here's another thing. Right when I first started training basketball teams back in the early 80s, I had UCLA basketball and I thought I broke this thing up pretty good, we're gonna go four hundreds and three hundreds and two hundreds and 150 yards. Well, at the end of one of the workouts, when the guys goes, it's a good workout, but I just didn't get them. I Didn't get that same feeling, that burnt, as we told me. Don McClain told me this number one score in UCLA history.

Speaker 3: 47:54

Still, I Didn't get that same burn. You know, when you're right, you got going in court in transition and when you stop and you got to shoot free throw. I didn't get that. Here I go goddamn Okay. So I had to change it. But that was my. That's like your wife like just do it. You know like well that. And that wasn't good enough, okay. So what do you say? Oh, no, no, that's good enough. No, cuz he, the way he described it was basketball. When you go and transition back and forth to get a steel basket, turn around games getting tight in your, you get that burn. I didn't have it on that. Oh, we should. We got to get that, because otherwise we're not doing the right condition.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Pragmatic question for you, bobby, since you have kids Kids lifting weights. We started our kids very young. In fact, by the time they can walk, they were actually doing quote resistance training. Obviously not with a weight, because there's no, there are no weights that fit a little kid. But this is one of the more controversial things you know, um, kids lifting weights. And I'm a big fan of kids lifting weights, learning how to move, doing speed stuff. We don't call it training, we just call it play.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 49:01

What are your thoughts?

Speaker 3: 49:04

First thing that comes to my mind is I swear that I saw a study 30 years ago. At least it's some kind of study or something anecdotal. Remember the soviet sports review and oh, yes, yes, yes yes to put on that I, it's something like that. I swear I saw something that said Uh, school age athletes lifting and a group that did not, that these Grew to taller heights than these guys.

Speaker 1: 49:31

Oh, interesting.

Speaker 3: 49:32

Yeah, the ones that did lift or didn't the ones that lifted were taller Than those who did not. And we all know that when bonus stress it grows right, I mean Without breaking it, sure. So I I've not seen anything that suggests otherwise. And you know, when people think about weight lifting, you think about monster weights, like I. You know squatting is I put something out the other day like you know, squatting is, you know, trap, bar deadlifts, is the best thing for you. You know it's safer than squatting.

Speaker 3: 50:05

I've seen to have injuries when we squat and I said, well, I'm in my 42nd year, I don't know. I can't remember one athlete that I had in my care squatting and hurting themselves, not one. So I think it's coaching, frankly, you know. But I also didn't put 405 on their back the first day we squatted either, right. So you know, and I think these kids are already doing stuff, they're already stressing their bodies by falling down and tumbling and swinging and jumping and they're jumping off. That you know, like your kids, they, they were on your desk while you were typing and they jumped off the desk Like, oh, that's a blast. And they, you know I'm pretty soon it's they're doing all this other stuff and I think that's terrific.

Speaker 3: 50:44

On the other hand, these guys say, well, we should do something different than that. You know, we'll just go body weight exercises Okay, how many pull-ups can your son or daughter do? Well, they can do one Like perfectly. I can know it's a strain and they're going like that and I say, well, that is probably more detrimental than doing a lat pull down for 10 reps, because if weightlifting is tough and you're talking about loads, then one of these there's got to be about 98 effort, right? Or the push-up that goes Like that, like that's like a max bench press.

Speaker 3: 51:21

So once you lay them down and give them a five pound dumbbell or a few, but whatever that is, you know, I think it's, I mean it's, it's probably the oldest wives tale that's out there, but I mean I think there's good ways to do it. So I'm totally into it, although I will say that activity is probably the get them out and running around and do all kinds of stuff. You know, and I think we've, we've seen instances where the playgrounds have been shut down or taken away and now we got these soft mats and everything's low and careful and all that. I think that's. You're taken away from the robustness that childhood play allows you, right, do you remember?

Speaker 1: 52:02

and I remember this vividly the the playground thing. That was a merry-go-round, but yeah, it is fast as possible, everyone would get on and we would spin it as fast as possible, then jump off. You know, it was sort of like weird plyometric training, we just didn't know it.

Speaker 3: 52:22

Or or your buddies were so funny that they tried to spin it so fast you'd get thrown off. Yeah, yeah, they don't let you do that anymore with kids. Uh, kids are soft.

Speaker 1: 52:29

That's the problem. Yeah, I guess I mean I don't that's the shame for, but at the same time you had the whole, I don't mind it.

Speaker 3: 52:36

I think, like you guys are, I don't mind if you're telling me what you're doing, but when you explain it with something that's not accurate, then I gotta tell you, like, the trap bar dev is a pretty big sample. It's safer and it's easier to teach. And I say, well, you know, only half of that's true. Is it easier to teach? Yeah, I guess you could be, but you know, even though it only takes me, like you know, 10 seconds to teach a squad, but that's okay if it's hard for you, that's you know. But but the safer, why is it all? Because there's less sharing and less compression. Hmm, that's interesting. Well, what do you think that? Well, because the bars on the ground. No, you still get sharing compression. It's because the bars that on your neck. Well then, it's less there. Well, no, because these muscles here go all the way to the back of your right underneath there, so it's pulling on that.

Speaker 3: 53:29

But the biggest part is that most people who do trap bar deadlifts are usually People that say yeah, so we don't squat. They look exactly like a squat, 100% like a squat, with the same compression and shear forces that will go up the more weight you add. So if you say it's easier for me to teach and supervise, I'd have to say, you know, that's probably a good idea. If I'm in front of 40 high school kids in a class, let's put a trap bar on the ground, let's, you know, let's raise it up. It's already a limited range of motion sports fans. So don't say, oh, it's safer with less Forces. Well, that's because you're not doing a full, a full squat. But okay, I buy that. But if you say, but we also do that because it's less sheer and compression, I go. Okay, I can't let that go. I'm gonna have to respond to that. Tony comments on that.

Speaker 1: 54:19

No, I do agree, I think if you're scouring it and you do have 40 50 kids in the room.

Speaker 2: 54:24

That it may be practical, it's an easier it is. You know, as far as safety, safety is related to is to movement pattern. That's all I mean what it's far more dangerous for anybody to get on an American football field than it is to squat. It's far more. Sport itself is far more dangerous than the squat can ever be right, even on the tennis court.

Speaker 2: 54:46

You watch Serena go from one end of the court to the other, propel herself in a miraculous speed, come to a dead stop, then go into a high velocity torso rotation with her forehand and slam the ball to the other side. I mean, what's safer than you know? Every sport in and of itself proposes greater dangers than to squat itself. And if you squat effectively with the right loads listen, I'm not saying every athlete has to do it, but at the same time I'm not going to ever argue it's very dangerous, we need to be careful. If you ever argue it's very dangerous, we need it needs to be replaced. Everything. It's context, for sure.

Speaker 2: 55:23

And if you have a young athlete who hasn't axial loaded in their life and right and needs to build a strong foundation and we're not yet worried about moving in 70 different planes, then you know what the squat could be a darn good exercise when coach properly. So but again to Bob's point if I've got 40 kids and I and I can't spot them all. Here's the great thing about the hex bar date. If you can't lift it, you drop it. If you can't lift a squat and we don't have a spider, then we have the problem. So new spot. It's then yeah, yeah, but it's all really the objective and how many people you're working.

Speaker 3: 55:59

I just, yeah, I mean it's hard to come up with that whole generalize it's, it's safer and easier to teach, like I think I just I just want good information to get out there, you know. I mean there's again you mentioned that context is pretty important and yeah, I mean, you know, I think we've all used it. We, some people squat and use the bar, some people just use the bar, but you know to say, like, you know, some somebody was mentioned it's the best bilateral, it's the Far better bilateral option than any other squad I go. Now. That can't be true at all.

Speaker 2: 56:33

You tell that to a guy who's 6'4, who can't even get inside a hex bar?

Speaker 3: 56:37

Well, yeah, and whose feet are relatively like you and me, putting ours like this far apart, like that's. That's the whole content, the hot context about this whole Childhood training thing and and going forward that, that context is great. And you know, you get to some level and both of you have been at that where the selection of exercise and isn't necessary based on physiology, isn't based on sets and reps. It's what's your resources, what your teaching skills, how much room do we have, how much time do we have? You know, like. So you know, when you say that's the best option there's, really, to me, tony and Joey, it's you don't want to do what works, you want to do what works best.

Speaker 3: 57:21

In that case, though, right, when you, when you're in a public, like for me, my the first place, our room in Oakland was really small in the 90s, right, and I wanted to squat. I was gonna squat, but my thought was this is how small that I you know, I probably, probably overemphasize this too much, I'm gonna be a little bit hyperbole, but I thought the room was so small and if I put a squat rack in there, invariably somebody's not going to put a collar on and that thing flips my walkout, half the room might be wiped out. So I bought a Smith machine there. That ended it. And what is that? My preference, no, but I thought that worked the best right there. So that's the other part of the context. You know, forget the science for a moment. Sometimes you have to.

Speaker 1: 58:08

I have a little. We're almost out of time, but I have a philosophical question. On social media you'll often see the, I guess, the phrase staying your lane. I'm actually not a fan of that phrase but I hear it a lot, particularly and I hate to say it particularly from people in the hard sciences. You know, exercise science it's always staying your lane. Staying your lane.

Speaker 1: 58:32

You know they might criticize a medical doctor or a physical therapist, athletic trainer, strength coach or whatnot, and I'm a firm believer that everyone can have an informed opinion, whether or not they have formal training in it. I think where people run into issues is they often have an uninformed opinion and that's where they get attacked. But just because you don't have a PhD or a medical degree does not mean you can't comment on the relevance of a study as it applies to your athlete. So when I see that staying your lane stuff I always cringe a little. I'm like no, it's, you got to know your limitations right, and you got to know which questions to ask. And I think there's context loss when people just say, oh, staying your lane, you don't know what the hell you're talking about and in a way it's like and this is an old analogy, you guys will appreciate this. It's like nails on a chalkboard, right, everyone's like what else are nail on a chalkboard?

Speaker 1: 59:31

And anyway so what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3: 59:33

on that. Oh man, I wrote what I consider a scathing article in link on Lincoln. Go look for it. About, first thing hate it. Hate that line, don't like it, never use it. It's for soft people who lack confidence, knowledge and you know. Whatever else you want to put in there, that's abrasive. It's a soft organization. It's not. It's somebody who's fearful of their own right, like staying your lane I would never do.

Speaker 3: 1:00:06

When I started the high performance model at CSUN, I made sure like hey look, everybody should have an opinion about what's going on here. So my example in that is well, it's got nutritionists, got an athletic trainer, got a strength conditioning coach. We all start from the same academic background, right. We all start physiology, one, biology one. We all do that and then, as we get going, then it goes nutrition and then we branch up much like physicians do. They all have a core belief there, right? But I think it's a tough start of the same sort of academic rigor that I should be able to discuss. Well, it's not really fair for me because you guys have turned me into a nutritionist almost here, but I but be able to comment on that. And so the topic of word is informed, right.

Speaker 3: 1:00:58

as long as you have an informed opinion, then you know you should bring something up. The last thing I want to do and this is where the stay in the lane thing really gets to me is is a little, you know, you do your own job, I'll do it, and I think well, I don't want to do years, but you're so bad you're not helping me do mine. That's what I'm saying, right? So I'm making that I'm able to say something about it. And here's a perfect example, something that's practical If you have an athletic trainer in the weight room while you're lifting, I can only see so much.

Speaker 3: 1:01:32

Hopefully I can see enough. But the minute I help somebody and there's somebody doing some you know, you know how kids are you show my to do something here. By the time you get down to platform five and jacked up again doing some, who knows what right you got to come back and help. But to have an athletic trainer, what somebody perform a bad squat, allow them to do it. They get themselves hurt. And then we figure out what happened and the trainer says Well, I mean, I saw it, you know, but that's not my place, you know, I'm gonna stand by laying. Well, now somebody's hurt because of the same thing, like in the in the in the athletic training room, right, you know they they've only got so many eyes and hands and they're they're having a rehab. And somebody, and you know they're going to, they're rehabbing legs and back and trying to get this kid back. Well, they're trying to get them back to exercise without limitation, right, which is the correct way to squat and deadlifting all that.

Speaker 3: 1:02:21

So if a guy, if a strength coach is sitting there and they're doing something that would, nobody would consider a deadlift the way you would in the room and just let it go like, well, that's not my place, that's wrong, you've got to pipe in there, I mean, that's so, that's a safety mechanism, but more than anything, I just think it's a system that's weak. You know, if you have a system where people stay in your lane, you know you're not going to, we're not asking you to go outside your scope of practice, that's different, right, we know just enough about everything, just us three here to be able to say, you know, I don't think that's enough protein, or I don't think that deadlift looks, you know, doesn't look right, or how long did it take to rehab that ankle? It was only a grade two, it's not the seventh week, like well, it didn't seem right.

Speaker 3: 1:03:10

You know those are the kind of conversations that should pop up in a safe environment and we're, you know again, what we do is we fix things, not fixing me. You don't fix you. You want to help other people and so that's. You know you're going to have to put that aside for a minute. You know my bruise you up a little bit, but in the end the intent is going to happen the way you want it to be. Okay, we fix that and we're helping somebody.

Speaker 1: 1:03:36

I like that answer. Staying your lane. What do you think, tony? Staying your lane?

Speaker 2: 1:03:40

I'm. I think a couple of people during covert probably should have too many interior designers talking about following the science. Maybe that was the most appropriate time. But other than that, the lanes, you know, the lanes are on a high right and you can still ride next to somebody, you can shoot, still share the same highway and you can still see what they're driving. So, as a result of that, you know, hey, I think I'm always open to collaboration or thoughts and input, and I've had it a lot and I just come back and say, okay, well, here's my thinking and why. But you bring up a great point and under those circumstances, you may be right. So I love the dialogue, I love sometimes, I love the thinking Hmm, that isn't what I'm thinking, but that's good thinking. So, right, I think that's how we all can get better and, like Bob said, it's done cool, respectfully. Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Why don't you try this? Great, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 1:04:40

I think there's a yeah, because there's a difference between asking a question and questioning. You know I don't like to get question, but I'm certainly responsive to a question.

Speaker 3: 1:04:53

Yeah right, I think those and the intent behind you know, yeah, I don't know about creating you know, I mean there's a couple guys cramping over here like whoa, wait a minute. If you say like, where are we with the cramping now on this thing, and then that's okay. So now you're asking and I'm going to help you a little bit, and that should answer both questions, right, the one that you're really asking, that's disguised as a statement, right? And then the actuality of it. So I don't, you know, and this thing, this thing evolved rapidly.

Speaker 3: 1:05:22

You know like I Rick and Joey you know, I mean the way I follow asked questions to him all the time. I'm not going to, I'm not going to jump out there, knowing how fast this thing evolves in terms of science and nutrition, all that. So I think this he gets a question from me all the time hey, are we still doing this with you? Know this, this thing and that thing, like yeah, I'm like okay, good, I just want to make sure you know, like you never know you know, yeah, I mean really fast.

Speaker 3: 1:05:51

So, yeah, I just, I think I do think of it in terms more of a system. Like you know, when you look at the high performance system, you can't have everybody in their lane. So, and that's that's where that term I don't know if you guys have heard this, but you know you ever be talks about interdisciplinary. The newer. The newer term is transdisciplinary. Interdisciplinary meaning a team of teams and transdisciplinary meaning one team. That, that trend, that's the one I like, that's, I like the one we're all talking all the time. We're going to have a week that we can really, then there's a consensus, a safe consensus, instead of waiting, like you know. Well, I, you know I thought that was, you know, not enough protein, but you know I was on my deal like no, that's not, that doesn't work.

Speaker 1: 1:06:39

Well, bobby, thank you for being on the show. Hey, congrats on your new position with the Los Angeles Angels.

Speaker 2: 1:06:48

Oh, it's fantastic by an angel hat this week.

Speaker 3: 1:06:52

Yeah, I see when you, when we come down, how far you guys are Miami.

Speaker 2: 1:06:58

I'm only about 40 minutes, 45, depending upon time of day.

Speaker 3: 1:07:04

Yeah, I'm double race.

Speaker 1: 1:07:05

I'm about a couple hours from my.

Speaker 2: 1:07:06

Oh yeah, when you come in for the play to maybe you have, if you have any Marlins games. But that would be interleague, but nevertheless I'll go out and tamper and say hello when you play the race.

Speaker 3: 1:07:18

That's a deal. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:07:22

Hey, you're a sports science dude. Officially appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 1:07:28

One conversation and informative, thank you.