Episode 58 The History of Strength: A Conversation with Chip Sigmon CSCS*D CISSN

Listen in as Chip Sigmon CSCS*D CISSN sheds light on his experiences working with the Charlotte Hornets and the WNBA's Charlotte Sting, and shares insights from his book, "The Golden Age of Strength and Conditioning."

Timeline:

1:48 Changes in a good or bad way in the strength and conditioning profession

11:22 Nutrition at the University and as part of the culture level way back when

20:38 Pursuing excellence, continuous learning – you have to be relentless and ruthless

27:03 A genuine Ph.D. will admit he or she knows nothing

27:49 Chip Sigmon was a competitive bodybuilder back in the day

28:16 How has bodybuilding affected how we view strength and conditioning? 

30:37 How Chip structures his workouts

34:25 High rate of force production

43:11 Chip’s list of fundamental movements be vis a vis resistance training for power-endurance athletes

47:22 How Chip trains himself and what supplements he recommends for his personal training clients

Our guest: 

Chip Sigmon CSCS*D, CISSN, USAW, RSCC*E

Chip is now a certified Sports Nutritionist. Certified by the ISSN. The International Society of Sports Nutrition is the leading organization when it comes to sports nutrition and supplements in the world.

Wellness Coordinator, Europa Sports Products / Strength & Conditioning Coach / Personal Trainer / Motivational Speaker.

Certifications: CSCS*D,  USAW L-1,  FMT L 1&2

1990-2011: Strength & Conditioning Coach, Charlotte Hornets, NBA

1997-2011: Strength & Conditioning Coach, Charlotte Sting, WNBA

1984-1990: Head Strength & Conditioning Coach, Appalachian State University

1982-1984: Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach, UNC Chapel Hill

1978-1982: High School Football and Track Coach; Kannapolis City Schools

Author: Book; 52 Week Basketball Training, Human Kinetics Publisher

Co-Author: Book; NBA Power Conditioning, Human Kinetics Publisher

6 Years in Competitive Bodybuilding

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance. The Sports Science Dudes represent the opinions of the hosts and guests and are not the official opinions of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the Society for Sports Neuroscience, or Nova Southeastern University. The advice provided on this show should not be construed as medical advice and is purely an educational forum.

Hosted by Jose Antonio PhD

Dr. Antonio is the co-founder and CEO of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and the co-founder of the Society for Sports Neuroscience, www.issn.net. Dr. Antonio has over 120 peer-reviewed publications and 16 books. He is a Professor at Nova Southeastern University, Davie, Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Twitter: @JoseAntonioPhD

Instagram: the_issn and supphd

Co-host Anthony Ricci EdD

Dr Ricci is an expert on Fight Sports and is currently an Assistant Professor at Nova Southeastern University in Davie Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Instagram: sportpsy_sci_doc and fightshape_ricci

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Sports Science Dudes. I'm your host, Dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, Dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. If you can find us on YouTube Rumble, Spotify and Apple podcasts. Our special guest today is Chip Sigmund. He actually has quite a cool background. He's a certified sports nutritionist through the ISSN. Some of his prior work, in fact, he worked at Europa Sports. This is way back when. He's also CSCS with distinction. He's also USA weightlifting certified level one Also. He worked as the head strength and conditioning coach for the Charlotte Hornets actually for quite a while, from 1990 to 2011. So he's got two decades of NBA experience. He also did some work with the WNBA with the Charlotte Sting, Also head strength coach, Appalachian State from 1984 to 1990. Wow, During 1984, that was when Ronald Reagan was president.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Holy shit.

Speaker 1: 1:09

And also this is what we'll start off. You have a book called the Golden Age of Strength and Conditioning. It's a history of the profession and between the three of us we have a lot of experience in this profession you more than Tony and I combined. So let me start off with this what has changed in a good way for the strength conditioning profession and what are some things that have changed that you might look at a scan like I'm not sure that's the best thing for the profession? And if you want, I could start with something semi-controversial.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Go ahead.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Okay. When the NSCA first started there were. I got the sense that there are rumblings amongst the traditional strength coaches, those who work with college teams, pro teams, etc. That the CSCS certification was getting diluted because people who had no intention of working in the strength and conditioning profession were getting the certification just to get the certification and they felt, in a way, it was doing a disservice to the profession. You know what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 2:22

Bingo. Great Doc, and you're exactly right. The NSCA came about in 1978, 1978, mainly because of football. Now they had it's. Every profession known to mankind has had an evolution. Okay, everything, every sport, every profession, and the NSCA did too. I remember going to the first convention in 1979, I believe that I went to in Atlanta and so and it just grew and it was all football coaches, it was all football strength conditioning coaches. But I got a backup little bit because a lot of them worked with all teams. But now, now you've got strength conditioning coaches at the collegiate level. They just work with football. When I went to Appalachia State 1984, I worked with every sport and I can tell you a little bit about that. But now, and people got disgruntled because the NSCA went to every sport I've got in my back. I'm here in my garage guys where I'm getting ready to have a baseball player 530. But so it the evolution of it. But you got now in the front cover of the NSCA they had paddleboard, a paddleboard player, no lie.

Speaker 1: 3:47

I love paddleboarding. Listen, it's a great sport.

Speaker 2: 3:50

I trained two paddleboards. Oh, wow, I've trained every sport, Tony. We can talk about MMA. I've trained two trainers there. Tony, I really liked your conversation with Brandon Harris about a month ago. I guess we can talk about that.

Speaker 2: 4:06

But so it the evolution of the sport Now. Then they went off and created the college strength conditioning coachless specialist. So they have a, they have one there and listen, I like both, no, no, guys on both sides. So what I like about it, doc? So that's the evolution is come so far and literally it can't know. The collegiate is just college sports and college football coaches. So you've only got so many, so many guys that can enter, you know, and your money coming from from there. Then, as CA, now, my goodness, you've got tons of strength coaches. Now I'm going to be honest with you guys. I went to go speak at Gardner Web. I speak, I'll speak at Furman University in January. But let me tell you something I try because this profession is so competitive and so demanding, we can talk about that I try to talk people out of being a strength conditioning coach. If they still want to be a strength conditioning coach, then I'll talk to them. So it's so demanding, you know, guys.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Jeff, let me just a quick question. When you say talk about the profession, are you talking about, like, for instance, the students Tony and I have? Typically their view of it is they're either working in college or the pros, which is a very narrow view of strength conditioning? Are you talking about those specific avenues?

Speaker 2: 5:44

Yes, and I say that tongue in cheek. Listen, guys, you got to be ready for 24 seven when I was with the Hornets in season. There was no off days from over until the playoffs were done, if we were fortunate to go that far. Very demanding If you. You got to think about getting married and have kids, because or have a wife that can do many jobs a nurse or something, or teaching school, because it's very, very demanding as far as family. I had a great wife and and met her at Appalachian State when I was a strength conditioning coach there and so she was getting her master's doctor and exercise science under Michael Stone and so I just, I just it's so demanding that the 24 seven, so much pressure. When I left the Charlotte Hornets I didn't really realize and I've talked to Jerry, paul, mary about this strength conditioning coach with the New York Giants. We were at University of North Carolina together. You don't realize how much pressure you're under when you get a call. I'm on the West Coast for two weeks and I get a call at five o'clock in the morning for from our general manager saying Chip, what's wrong with Matt Geiger's lower back? I got a remit. It's nine o'clock, eight o'clock at Eastern Standard Time I'm on the West Coast in Portland. That's how demanding. But every job I mean, you know there's certain there's pressures and hey, you got to embrace that pressure. That's what it's all about.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Another thing, doc, one of the good when I started Appalachian State, and it's I'll go into the book if you want. But I went with, I went nothing, no money. I went for free. We'll talk about that but. But I can back up a little bit and go there, but so that. So in my first, when they, when I went full time, it was $21,000. $21,000.

Speaker 2: 7:45

Now I went to Appalachia State, matt Brown, the coach's head football coach in North Carolina. He said, chip, we can't pay you, we'll give you a room and board. They put me on a little room under the field house with a referee's crest. But for game day I had a little shower. The assistant AD got me electric heater. It was it's cold in Boone, North Carolina Now, that's where I graduated from, so in 1978. And so, so, so that school meant so much to me. And then I got training tape and I worked with all sports. The weight room was down in a basement at Dungeon. No, no, no lights. I mean, excuse me no windows for life, and so it was an all day thing. I would go at dark, I would leave it dark.

Speaker 2: 8:30

But, that's, you know, that's what's the sacrifice I remember. My mom and my sister came to, came to visit me and they both started crying, said Chip, you can't live here, you can't, you can't do this. I said, mom, dad, you know you, we've all been there. So say, just just hold on there, everything's gonna be fine. And those are the sacrifices that you've made, tony, that doc, you've made, that we all have to make.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Yeah so but it's been so rewarding with the pay. Now the pay at Appalachia State. Excuse me, the guy may be making close to $200,000 and. Matt does an excellent job, but those are the changes that have been made in the evolution of the profession.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Yeah, you know, what's interesting is I mean, the field of strength conditioning is older than the field of sports nutrition, certainly on the academic side, and what's funny or ironic is a lot of the younger students coming out have no idea what the history was like, and so I'm not sure they have an appreciation of what it's. You know, of the opportunities they have now, and on sports nutrition, if you go back and you know this quite well, chip, we've talked a lot about how, prior to the year 2000, sports nutrition, as even in the field of study, was not even respected. Yet we all know, working with athletes, how important sports nutrition is. So just from the year 2000 to now, sports nutrition has undergone a rapid, rapid evolution, and so you see this in a lot of professions In fact. Chip, a quick story. I don't know if you attended any of the ACSM meetings back in the 80s. Okay, well, I like telling this story because in a way it supports why the NSCA was started.

Speaker 1: 10:17

I used to. That used to be my bread and butter conference ago to when I was initially a student, and I remember sitting in some of these talks and even listening to conversations. You know I'd eat, eat, drop. I didn't know anyone. So I'm like what are they saying? They literally made fun of people who lifted weights. It was the weirdest thing. They were so anti-resistance training that. And it's not like I was this big weight training guru. I just thought, okay, this is really weird. You're basically denigrating one major form of exercise at the expense of saying aerobic training is all you need to do so, and a lot of students don't realize that was back in the 1980s, so that was, that's in our lifetime. I mean, tony, I don't know if you ran it and ran into that. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 10:59

I remember visiting down at the Cooper Institute in Dallas and you know Dr Cooper himself. I mean, it didn't really come around to a weight room until about 92, 93. But prior to that it was bad for your heart and just probably the other part of the body, you know, at least in the context in which they presented it. So absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:23

But, dr, you're right. If I can interrupt, you're right on the nutrition, because here's the deal when I went to Appalachia State, I was in charge of the training table Now my bodybuilding career.

Speaker 2: 11:37

I was so interested in nutrition and back then in the 70s and 80s, guys, you know holy cow nutrition, you know you go into a health food store. You're kind of weird and you put remember the Tigers Milt Bar, the Tigers Milt Bar, yes, the sign. And people thought it was real Tigers Milt. Do you give one of those things? I remember it. Well, that's true. That's why they thought you're drinking Tigers Milt. No, no, no. But I was in charge of the training table.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Okay, now Appalachian State. That was at Appalachian State. Now, full-time nutritionist. Most major universities have full-time nutritionists. Now again I was at Appalachian State. Dr Michael Stone and Dr Harold O'Brien. We had one of the best exercise science programs in the country.

Speaker 2: 12:30

I went to the University of New North Carolina to the assistant strength coach and to work on my master's exercise science. I did not finish because right in the middle, guys, I got a head strength coach job and I didn't. But I feel like I have because, guys, I talk to Dr Michael Stone and Harold O'Brien every single day. They were, that was Appalachian State, was the hub of anaerobic. You talk about Dr Cooper and Dallas, appalachian State. Now I've got to tell you a story. So I got to back up a little bit when I went to Appalachian State. They didn't like that. The exercise science people didn't like me and here's why they had no say in who they were. They were hiring Matt Brown. We're going to have this guy and he's going to work with football, but we'll give him the other teams too. And they did.

Speaker 2: 13:24

I trained every team, even cheerleaders, back in 1984, I finally got assistance about a year and a half later. So I worked with all teams. But so what I did was I got with. So I got to have those people on my side, the exercise science people. So I went to Dr Harold O'Brien and Drs Michael Stone and man, those guys are great friends of this day and I made them a part of my strength conditioning program. I sat down, we did, they came up, they big time on a linear periodization. We can talk about periodization a little bit, but I've done them all, but I made them a part. I like what? Strength coach Buddy Morris says University of Pittsburgh.

Speaker 2: 14:10

He's now with Arizona partners. He says this and a lot of strength coaches don't. They'll say they said listen, if I've got some top premier people in my exercise science program, no matter what university, I'm going to walk in there. And this is about what I did. Buddy Morris says I'm going to ask them how many times my players should fart during the day. I want it so detailed. I want to know. So I did. I made them a part.

Speaker 2: 14:39

We did studies. You're talking about training studies. If you don't want, if you want to do a training studies, you try to talk them out of it. Dr Antonio, training studies are tough. I helped some graduate students do training studies. I kind of did one on my own. We won't get into that.

Speaker 2: 14:55

But then we had to back off because of certain reasons with the equipment. I know how hard that is. My wife did one getting her thesis in exercise science and nutrition, so I know how hard. That is True story. So this is in the 80s. We had no indoor facility in Boom and it gets cold and snowy. They have a 60-yard field indoor.

Speaker 2: 15:19

I trained the football players in the balcony of Varsity Gymnasium on hard concrete. We had to back up the bleachers and we ran them. I practiced 40-yard dashes, we did our vertical jumps against the cement wall, tagging the chalk and you know. But so I got remember this is the age of the aerobics and the Jane Fonda aerobics. Well, I thought I'd be good, I thought I was doing pretty good. So I got some pretty attractive young ladies to come teach our work, our guys, on aerobics. And we did, and we did classes for a certain amount of time on our off days that was our conditioning days, I think, two days a week.

Speaker 2: 16:03

Well, I got a call in from. I said Chip, harold O'Brien, dr O'Brien, I want to talk to you because I don't think Stone had gotten there yet. And he says Chip, do you know who that hurt? You're doing aerobics? He said, yes, dog, and I told him why, listen, we got to keep our kids active. I don't have a place, just something to do and a little little different. Change your past. He says well, you know, your squat, your list, are going to go down, your power is going to go down. I said, yeah, doc, I kind of thought about that. And you know what guys? Our power went down, our benches went down, our squats went down Our cleaners and I I cut it off. So I was in the age at Appalachian State. You're talking about anaerobic studies. I was right in the middle of it, but I may. I got a funny story. Dr Stone I've seen his office was right upstairs in the classroom. I've seen him do the Krebs cycle without notes on the board. I mean just incredible.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Every student's nightmare.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Yeah, but he Dr Stone, because you know Dr Anjodi, you know Michael from LSU, so he would come down after class and he would do his snatches and cleans In fact he really helped me perfect my cleans and he would do a snatch and clean with his Olympic weightlifting suit on. He would go up there and teach upstairs with his weightlifting suit on and come back down and finish his workout. So I got real close with Dr Stone, did a. We collaborated on the on the contrast complex post activation potentiation article or clinic speaking at the NSCA conference. I'll do the same thing at Furman University in the gen end of January.

Speaker 1: 17:53

Interesting. He wait.

Speaker 3: 17:54

So just say that again, Chip he would be, he'd have like his Olympic weightlifting singlet on and then he'd go teach class with that.

Speaker 2: 18:02

They come back down and finish.

Speaker 3: 18:04

Didn't have a lipid weightlifting shoes on too.

Speaker 2: 18:07

Oh, yes, everything. And Dr Stone now listen, I love the man, you're weird, he wouldn't mind. He's weird. That's how close Dr Stone was getting his divorce during around that, down around that time, and Michelle, my wife, she was getting her master's in exercise and she would walk by and we would talk and my assistants would say, chip, I would kind of find out her intentions. Well, her intentions was to marry me and she did so, and so we would take Dr Stone on our dates and so we talked exercise science, and so I feel like you know, I've got a, you know, pretty good handle on some things. And I remember, after we collaborate and if you collaborate on Dr Stone or something, there's no way he's going to tell you if he does great job or something. My wife knows very seldom, and so you've really got to. So working with him was on this project of contrast complex training. Boy, I tell you every day, you know it's a challenge and and. But when I spoke, there was about two or three PhDs in the audience that had written on complex and contrast training, and Travis Triplett, the first woman president in the CA, is there, and some other PhDs can't remember our name. And of course, dr Stone is the authority on contrast complex training, and so it was. It was. It was a challenge with Doc and Tony.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I'm 68 years old. I still have that passion to learn. Guys, I don't think I don't think I've missed any of your, any of your programs. I'm always, every morning at breakfast, I'm listening to something, I'm listening to you, guys, I'm listening to something in nutrition and sports science. And I told the people just a couple of weeks ago at Gardner Web University and Dr Jonathan Ahern does a great job, he's always helped me with studies and so forth and I tell him if you don't have the passion, and I tell them this, you have to be and, guys, you know this, you've had to do it you have to be and I say this in well you have to be relentless and ruthless in your pursuit of excellence every single day.

Speaker 2: 20:43

Now, I don't mean ruthless to other people, now I don't wanna talk about that, but you have to be. You know your people, your students, doc, you know your. This is not easy. You have to be. You have to do the things. You have to train your mind to do the things that you don't wanna do. To study when other, when study when nobody else is studying, on a Saturday night, you know so, do the little things, and but you have to be relentless and ruthless in your pursuit of excellence. And, believe it or not, guys, I still have that and if I don't, I don't know if I'll ever retire. I enjoy what I do. I enjoy making people better. When my athletes, when former Blinkenship baseball player from Fort Mill comes in when he leaves at 6.15 today, I'm gonna say did you get better as a person? Did you get better as a student and did you just got better as an athlete?

Speaker 1: 21:38

So anyway, no, I like that. I mean relentless. I like the use of the word relentless. I've usually described it, and this doesn't apply to just science. But usually when I talk to up and coming scientists, I say you gotta be skeptical, you gotta be curious and you have to persevere, you have to have sort of that endurance. And I think I like the word relentless more because in a way, you know well, what do you have to do to achieve excellence? Well, there are no shortcuts, you have to do what you have to do. It's just the way it is.

Speaker 1: 22:11

So I, like you, know, I like relentless it's, you just gotta keep doing it.

Speaker 2: 22:15

I mean, I'll be really honest with you. When I first saw the study questions for the CISS, I said there's no way I can do this. And this is only about four or five years ago. I'm 62, 63. Why do you want somebody this age? Why do you want to do this? But no, I want challenges in life.

Speaker 2: 22:44

And you'll know the doc. I had no clue that the answers to those questions were on the internet. I looked them all up and that's what helped me. So, but you have to face those challenges and do things that you don't think you can do and that's what makes it worth well, so many things I have failed in my life more than I have succeeded, and that's the way. You know. In my garage, you see, I've got athletes and articles that I've written around here, and but I'll say that's all great, but if you put on my failures, it would triple this from, it would go, it would keep going. But you learn from that and you get better people or show a shame to their failures. I'm not, I could, and people said, well, you didn't do this at Appalachia State or Carolina or the short Hornets. You know what. And you're right. And I'll tell you a lot of things else I didn't do, but now I'm doing it and I've gotten so much better because of that. And, Tony, you've seen, it in.

Speaker 2: 23:39

MMA fighters who, my goodness, who have just failed and failed, but they kept going, you keep going and you don't let up. You're relentless, but anyway, I apologize, guys, I'd wanna. No, that's great.

Speaker 3: 23:52

And just quickly to build on Chip, which is the beautiful part. My students asked me sometimes they're like, prof, how come you're always excited every day? And I'm like because, well, first, I'm excited that I love this some 38 years ago, when I was your age, and you love it now. That excites me. And secondarily, every time I come in here I find out something we didn't know the day before. Right, you go back, chip, to the 80s, when we first got our CSEAs. I mean, we didn't have any idea to the extent to which the nervous we had this basic idea of increasing neural drive. But the evolution of the myelin sheath and myelination and every day when I get up, our field learns that there's a new way that the human body adapts to physical performance, exercise, stimulus, training protocols, and that's really exciting. And so not only does it I think I feel like you do not only does it keep us wanting to learn, but it keeps you excited, because tomorrow this industry is going to be a little different than it was yesterday.

Speaker 2: 25:00

Yeah, you're exactly right, we're learning so much, doc, you're Tony, you're an MMA work Doc, you're work with nutrition, but also people don't realize you're work with hyperplasia. I remember writing an article, reading an article in 1984. I agree that it just it branches or splits. They call it splitting, but it still branches. It doesn't go a separate way or combine or it must get smaller. But my goodness, the hypertrophy now. And strength, and what can we do? I've learned so much from your shows on muscle hyperperfusion, strength periodization. It's just so complex and the more I know, the more I think I know. It's like the Dunning-Kruger effect Totally, you know, the more you realize. I don't know, dick, I don't know anything. You get humble fed. This is a Doc. This is a true story.

Speaker 2: 26:04

You're not humble, you're not serious, oh, my goodness, and you know, you two guys are so humble. I'm not PhD. You've had non-PhDs on remote stuff and you kind of play that down. Guys, let me tell you something Never apologize for success, because as a day society, that's what I want us to do. I would be very proud of that.

Speaker 2: 26:24

But I remember the ISS Inconvention one year in Clearwater, doc, there was a guy there had some guy and he was talking and all the women were around him. But I tell you what and they were listening and I did, but he was spouting awesome things that were incredible. But he said something I'll never forget. He said, in this profession, guys, and he was very, very nauseous, and back then I just kept my mouth shut Because and now I go and I pretty much I can keep up with most stuff but he said something I'll never forget and I knew it, but it just reinforced. But he said that, listen, he had his PhD. And he said but, guys, let me tell you something, I know nothing, I don't know anything in this, and because that does keep you humble, it keeps you wanting more and more and more in this profession. So that's, if you don't have the passion, then it's time to leave.

Speaker 1: 27:26

Yeah yeah, learning. I mean learning is like you're just peeling an onion. That's endless. You just keep peeling, layer after layer, and it's so true you start studying a field and even a subset of that field. You're like, okay, I think I learned a little bit, but now I've opened up a door to something that I know nothing about. So I want to segue a little.

Speaker 1: 27:49

A lot of people realize you had a pretty interesting bodybuilding career. Just a few things I want to mention. You were the in 1981, you were the Lone Star Classic overall winner. This was Fort Worth, texas. You were Mr North Carolina in 1977. You're Mr Southeastern, au 1978.

Speaker 1: 28:07

And the reason I bring up bodybuilding and I want you to eventually go tell the story about how Joe Weeter wanted you to stay in California. But let's hold off on that for a while. In two days and I might be wrong, but this is my perception of it it seems like most of the quote research done in looking at muscle hypertrophy or resistance training, it has a. It tends to be a bodybuilding-centric view of the world versus a performance-centric view of the world, and I know in sports nutrition people who study you know they're interested in muscle protein synthesis, gains in lean body mass. It's almost always from a bodybuilding standpoint, when, in fact, most people who perform a sport are not trying to bodybuild. So talk a little bit about you know sort of the dichotomy of most sports, aren't? You're not bodybuilding per se, you're trying to perform a task, and then you have bodybuilding, and bodybuilding has such and it's great, bodybuilding's great, but it's had almost too much of an influence on you know, resistance training or strength conditioning.

Speaker 2: 29:15

Doc, I'm a former bodybuilder and I still do bodybuilding on my workouts. I would totally agree.

Speaker 2: 29:22

I would totally agree with that. It's gotten to a point and now bodybuilding is making a comeback and CrossFit is coming down a little bit and I like CrossFit listen, get, do something you enjoy and that's the main thing just move. But you're exactly right, there is in my workouts. I remember in Appalachian State I gotta think back. I just don't wanna. I wanna think about this.

Speaker 2: 29:53

When I went to Appalachian State and I accepted the job, matt Brown and his assistant, john Palermo, were standing there and I said don't worry, guys, I'm a former bodybuilder, but I'm not here to make them bodybuilders. And John Palermo, the assistant football coach, said I am so glad to hear that Now and I don't blame it, because there is a difference in sports performance here's how I structure my workouts. And I got this from the guys at Mass. I was listening to a podcast and because I had done Western Heart, I had done the dynamic, I had done the strength days, the dynamic days, the explosive days. Here's what I do, and not everyone. Because, guys, I just had a lady in here this morning, 66 years old, get a PR on Sumo Deadlift 100 pounds for five.

Speaker 1: 30:50

Damn, yeah and go.

Speaker 2: 30:53

I will do it at the end. My Instagram she's gonna be on there, but I've got others. I'll post her tomorrow morning about the Sigmund Sports on Instagram. But so I'll lay it out as this your first day is going to be high purchasing. Your second day is going to be explosives. Your contrast complex snatches, cleans, your explosive movements, push press. Then your third day, not three days in a row, it's split. Now You've got two days in between. It's going to be strength. You don't want to do high purchasing before strength. That's going to get you sore. Your explosive works and you've got a day of rest is not going to hurt. Now I will say that most strength conditioning coaches do have a high purchasing data or high-purchase reblocks and their predisposition. It is important. But you've got to have those strength days. You've got to have those explosive days.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Remember I learned this in 1978, the adult said principle specific adaptations to imposed demands, whatever those demands are. On that sport you better have exercises to enhyten those demands. Mma I've trained too long in the Europa, two fighters toning and they were both women. What I did was okay, the specific adaptations. There's really no high-purchase that much in purchasing involved. There may be a slight in the training. But I'm going to do maybe five reps of cleans. I'm going to go over the Jacobs ladder and you're going as hard as you can for 30 seconds. You're going to come over and you're going to do weighted kicks, ankle weights on your and you're going to kick with that You're going to. Then you're going to sprint and you know what I'm talking about. Tom, that's just one facet of the program. But you've got to place demands whatever that sport entails. You've got to put demands on whatever that sport demands and kind of may screw that up there, but you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 33:07

You've got to put some demands on, so the body will adapt, and you try to get it not to adapt, so it's always progressing.

Speaker 1: 33:16

Yeah, antoni, you've mentioned how obviously in MMA you can't because of the weight classes, you can't really afford to induce hypertrophy, because now you're moving up a weight class, which is what you're trying to avoid.

Speaker 3: 33:26

Yeah, exactly Joanne. To Chip's point too. Like listen, hypertrophy is just an effect. It can come, as we know and as we're learning right. There are multiple rep ranges and loads that can induce it. It's very genetic but it's never a goal. I can't mitigate it in terms of if I'm trying to elicit the necessary stimulus that will induce to what Chip was talking about greater rates of force production or greater strength. Right, that's going in somebody's tides to induce hypertrophy and I have to let it go. I can't mute it. But certainly it isn't really an objective in MMA training, except maybe in areas such as the neck and the traps or something along those lines. But we don't really have that hypertrophy phase. Anything that we do, if hypertrophy is the end result of that stimulus, we allow it. You know, in a weight class sport it's usually not an objective, right?

Speaker 2: 34:24

Antoni, you said something so important the high rate of force production. Yeah and boy you got to have that in the last minute of that fifth round. Absolutely, Chip, You've got to have it. And now, football is no huddle offense. You've got to have that power and that force production on that fourth quarter. You know you've got to have that in an NBA game or a collegiate basketball game. So that is critical. Yeah, Especially Wil, if the sport demands that you had better put it into your program.

Speaker 3: 35:03

You've got it and training replicable power is not easy.

Speaker 2: 35:09

Oh.

Speaker 3: 35:10

It is very challenging, is that?

Speaker 2: 35:12

kick just as hard in the last minute, is it? What is it in the first minute Exactly? That's all. If it is, yeah, you've got an athlete.

Speaker 3: 35:21

Yep, you got that right.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Yeah, it's interesting we're talking. I mean, I think I would classify those as power endurance sports. You got to do a repetitive movement, but high power, high velocity, we do have a question. Let's take the other extreme, chip, and tell me your philosophy. So let's take we know that resistance training improves running economy. So we're talking about distance runners. How would you approach them? Because clearly, for them, hypertrophy, you don't want hypertrophy, you're not really developing power. Running a PR in a 10K race, I mean you're talking. World-class guys are doing it well under 30 minutes. It's primarily an issue of cardiac output. So what's your philosophy in terms of resistance training for the elite distance runner or the elite cyclist or the elite distance swimmers?

Speaker 2: 36:08

My brother is a elite cyclist and we talk about him. We talk about this all the time. Now, again, it got it back up a little bit. Distance runners and most cyclists are why? Well, they're slim, they don't carry a lot of. Because of the demand of the sport, they don't carry a lot of muscle. Now look at your Olympic sprinters Half of them could be bodybuilders. That's how it is. So your distance runners, they don't have a lot of muscle because of demands and the caloric expenditure of that. Your cyclist too, especially cyclists. So you got to be putting down a lot of calories, I believe here I'll get off track a little bit and protein, I think you got to have just as much protein as a distance runner, cyclist. You do a bodybuilder? Yep, I agree, because you're going to lose muscle. You're going to lose it. However, there's going to be things in my periodization model for cyclists and distance runners. Ok, guys, we're going a little bit of, a little bit of, I'll percieve it.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Mainly strength. I want you strong for that last quarter mile to mile, and strength is not a big component, but let's say that my knees have been hurting because I've been running on that pavement. I get that when I was assisted with physical therapy at Ortho, carolina, after I left the Charlotte Hornets and before I went to Europa. We got people their knees all the time I've been running well, it's on concrete. We got to get those knees stronger. They can take that pounding. We've got to get the hips stronger. We have, as Brett Contreras said, one of your best programs. You've got to get those glutes stronger, especially runners it's all hips, it's all hips. And runners, cyclists, it's all hips. So strength does is a component of their sport. So you've got to put that in there. And now it's not all the time, but you've got to put it in a certain inner intervals.

Speaker 1: 38:37

I have a question about squats, Tony. I didn't know if you wanted to follow up on that, but I had one on.

Speaker 3: 38:42

No, just they spot on, perfectly articulated and just to close it out, I mean it's kind of a chicken to the egg thing, as I always say to my students. And Chip was referring to the different structures, the different sides. Are you born looking like Hussein Bolt in order to run like that, or does running like that make you look like that? And the answer is yes. Right, it's a little bit of both. And the chip's point these elite endurance runners don't carry a lot of weight, probably wouldn't carry a lot of weight, and that's what would make them elite, but they do still need that clean tissue preservation, strength and good protein. So I just thought those were outstanding points.

Speaker 1: 39:25

Yeah, I have a question, Chip. There is in the strength and conditioning community. There seems to be a subset of strength coaches that sort of have a favorite exercise or an exercise they don't recommend. For instance, I think Mike Boyle says he doesn't have anyone do squats, back squats. There are those who say all athletes should be doing snatches and cleans, and I don't know if you want a distance runner doing snatches and cleans because it's such a technical movement. Are there things in terms of the philosophy of strength and conditioning that you've seen sort of globally among strength coaches that you're like, wow, that's really strange. I don't know where that came from. Or wow, that's a great idea. I have not heard of that.

Speaker 2: 40:05

Yeah, and great question, doc. You had a oh gosh, who was it? You talked about the different fads and was that Bob? Bob, alejo, yes, bob's a good friend. I can't remember. I can't remember, but it is kind of that, where this is the lift of the day, a lift of the week, or the lift this time is for snatches or cleans. It's kind of what, if you're going to believe in something and I've changed a lot but I do believe there are certain times for snatches and cleans in some athletes. Now I believe at Buddy Morris, the NFL it's so demanding and you get to that point. Do you really need the snatches and cleans? I'm not an NFL strength coach who ever had been. I'll get to that when I, if I was ever there In the NBA, I would have players like BJ Armstrong from the Chicago Bulls.

Speaker 2: 41:11

He came and Al Vermille was a strength coach. He did snatches and cleans. Michael Jordan didn't do them. Bj Armstrong did. I knew how to do those and I coached him, but other players I did not. Yeah, I'll ask in my business, guys, in the summer I get a lot of collegiate athletes. I'm not your strength coach guys. Give me your program, that strength coach that does for you that summer workout. That's why I have a pretty good relationship, a good relationship with most of the strength, all the strength, because I'm going to do what they want me to do and I'll call them up. And basketball player just had from the University of South Carolina is his weight and the nutrition there for him. So I hope I'm at it.

Speaker 2: 42:00

You've got to determine what your philosophy is, but I do this. Doc and Tony, the benefit to risk ratio you better know what the heck you're doing. I had a 66 year old lady in here deadlifting, sum of deadlifting, five wraps with 100 pounds. I better know what the heck I'm doing. You know you can't get anybody hurt, and a good thing about it. In the NBA I never, never had somebody come. Well, chip got me hurt and go to the general manager Because, well, I took every day so seriously. You bet whatever philosophy if you like to clean, just if you like the deadliest whatever there is. I know Brett Contreras talked about the big six movements and I agree with that. You better know that this is what I do. This is what I do. This is why I do it. What are your?

Speaker 1: 42:59

plot movements. You know, brett has his big. What would, what would be the one sort of the fundamental movements that and I guess let's stick to power endurance athletes, what would the fundamental weight training movements be?

Speaker 2: 43:12

And I would have to, doc, agree with Brett a lot on those. Now I do do the snatches and the cleans for athletes. I think they can do them, but it's, you've got a squat. Now the squat variation it may be a front, it may be a back, it may be a goblet squat.

Speaker 2: 43:30

There's a very I'm just gonna put everybody in a back squat and you're gonna go down and do it. No, I will always evaluate every athlete that comes in. I'll do overhead press but I'll do it the right way. So then, if I see any imbalances, you're not gonna do it. You know they're bench press. If you all my, all my throwers, my quarterbacks, mason Rudolph I was up at Pittsburgh the guys he's been giving the starting assignment for this Saturday against the Bengals, all of all my baseball players, they use the slingshot by Mark Bale. It's a free-ever tournament but I do it. I'm not gonna. That's the they. I don't have to worry about them getting hurt shoulders if they're using the slingshot, okay, but bench press variations dumbbell, it may be a board press, it may be using the bands, but different variations of those lists. I'm forgetting that.

Speaker 2: 44:31

I do deadlift. I like the sumu deadlift for athletes because of hit mobility. I like that. I'll do regular and do trap bar deadlift and do some. There's a difference between trap bar deadlift and trap bar squats. A lot of people I see people oh, this is a trap bar deadlift. No, it's not, that's a trap bar squat. But those are the basics that I will send around and again, you better be able to articulate what you believe, no matter what they are, and why you believe what you're and why are you doing what you're doing?

Speaker 3: 45:11

Right, and to that point, if I really see, there's nothing wrong with saying you know, okay, why don't you use the back squat that much? Here's why. But to negate the movement or any given movement in their entirety, there may be less utility for one given sport of a particular exercise. I understand that. But what? The urge to throw it out in advance, almost for the purpose of novelty, is what I don't understand. You know there's a playbook and you have a.

Speaker 3: 45:43

You know Andy Reed, I see him with his card. He's got a hundred plays on there. He may not use 98 through 100, because it might be a fourth and two inch play, but it's there in case you need it. And you know, if somebody's 19 years old, what's wrong with appendicular loading and axial loading right and doing little squats just to develop their frame, the connective tissue, bone density. So anyway, my point is I just like hearing the way you're going about it. Each athlete may be different. They may have different abilities, different capacities and different physiological or bio-emoted demands which warrant slightly different approaches from athlete to athlete.

Speaker 2: 46:20

Exactly In the NBA, I had 14 players on roster. Everyone was different. Right, I didn't work out for any guy because every guy's. You didn't mean to tell me, okay, I'm going to put a bar on your back and you're going to go down. I don't think so. You know so. So I'm going to evaluate and I'm there to make you better, to help. I'm the A1, I'm the A1 sauce on the steak. The steak is great, especially when you get to that level NBA, nfl, that. That, that A1 sauce just puts a little flavor, and that's what I'm there to do for mobility, you know.

Speaker 2: 46:53

I tell player you know the key. And when you get to that high level NBA and NFL it's mobility. It's mobility First. First, you got that flexibility, but I'm really big on mobility. When my athletes will come in First? We're going to spend 15 minutes on flexibility, but also on mobility's key.

Speaker 3: 47:14

Right.

Speaker 1: 47:15

Right, we're, we're running out of time. So two questions. One's kind of a fun question that would be how you train yourself now and how it differs from, let's say, 30 years ago. That's the first question. The second one is what supplements you recommend for your personal training client. So how about? How do you train? How does it change the last three decades?

Speaker 2: 47:35

And you would ask me about the supplements Coach. You do that with everybody. I'm listening to all of them and I got to say something. But when we finish you'll give me about a minute. My bodybuild Doc. There's nothing more than that. That that weight in my hand. Every Saturday morning I still get up. I got up at four o'clock this morning or, excuse me, 430. And I'll get up on a Saturday morning and have a bowl of oatmeal with protein on top and blue raspberries and then I go train legs and I still train them in tents. I still train in tents. I've had some surgeries told you about male bow and things like that and blew that out. I've had shoulder uh hemi in my shoulder shoulders good as new. I can do. I can still squat. I can back out with 225 pounds.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Damn, that's great, I can, I can, I did lift it.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Guys, let's take, I did lift it. That's how stupid I can be sometime. I've dead lifted two, I've dead lifted three on the trap bar. Three 10 for 10 is some German volume training. But the day before my tricep surgery. Listen to this the day before my tricep surgery I just blew my tricep out and a reverse bench the day before because the tricep has nothing to do with them. A physical therapy is when nuts I've dead lifted to 250 for five before right the day before because the tricep has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3: 48:59

Hell you're going in for surgery. Blow it all out while you're on it.

Speaker 2: 49:03

But so I still like the drill, I still. I still train five, five days a week, Um, so I still like that bodybuilding. And then I won't go some on squats to fives or dead lift fives for strength, Um, and I'm getting back where I can, I can. I'm getting ready to bench now. So I do I still bodybuilding because I love the sport.

Speaker 1: 49:25

That's great yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:26

For for what do I? I? I, I train some, some. Some older people come to me. I train athletes to see I'm 60, I'm older than most of my clients, but I've got men coming to here that want to lose muscle. I've got women. I don't want to lose muscle, I'm. I'm as Stacy Sims says, I'm lifting heaven. Yeah, and that's what I'm doing to those. And just just look it up on my Facebook. I'm doing fives with the number threes. I got Eleanor Rose, an 83 year old lady who did a PR on a sumo dead lift 70 pounds for three.

Speaker 1: 50:05

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 50:06

Love. Here's the supplements I really created. Number one Nope. Now, doc, I thought I thought in my athletes and my personal training that this supplement would be up there to create is B-Tank. I thought it would. And, doc, now I've got three articles from the SSN you may be familiar with this journal, ssn, you might be familiar with it Slightly Three articles on B-Tank, and one is kind of not power, but it is favorable, like what you say, neutral or positive, I'm going to take it. So I do. I do, like you know, b-tank, but written. It's going to be fish oil and it's going to be, it's going to be my protein, my way isolate or my way hydrolyzed.

Speaker 2: 51:01

I like that a lot and, and you're getting, you know, 2.3, 2.4 grams per kilogram. And so I'm, I'm, I'm busted, and if you want to take more, by all means do so. I have no problem with that whatsoever. But that's, that's my big ones. If I thought. Another big one I like is magnesium.

Speaker 2: 51:24

I think people that walk around that are sick all the time, they may be a little deficient in magnesium. Here's the deal, doc. I know what I'm taking in the morning, I know what I'm taking at lunch and I know what I'm taking at night before I go to bed. People won't do that. They'll think well, how long do you take this supper? Well, I take it for a week and I just didn't feel anything. No, you've got to know. When I know, when I'm taking five grams of creatinine, what do you think for me when I bumped it up to 10, holy cow, I'm a new person. So that's what I do, guys. I wanna I know you said, doc, this is the last show of the season, correct? Yeah, it is, guys, I wanna commend you and I wanna list. You do a great service and you're too humble, both of you.

Speaker 1: 52:15

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 52:16

For your listeners. You go to episode 57, dr Mike Nelson talk about the heart rate variable. You go to episode 54, andy Galpern talking about muscle hyperplasia. I believe he's yes, I can't read and write him. Then you go to Brandon Harris we talked about the training top MMA fighters episode 53. Bob Aleo 56, training kids staying in your lane. And Dr Stacy Sands I talked about her 36. Your best one I listen to it twice is episode 37, brett Contreras. Guys, please don't stop what you're doing. Okay, I listen to you all the time.

Speaker 3: 53:05

And I appreciate, oh good, someone does other than my wife.

Speaker 2: 53:08

I'm so grateful to people, I'm to you guys.

Speaker 3: 53:11

Thanks.

Speaker 2: 53:11

And I just wanna it's a pleasure and honor to be with you. When you asked me, Doc, I'm thinking has he got the right person? So it's a pleasure and honor to be with you. I can't tell you it's something I'll remember, but you guys are doing just a great service. I look forward to seeing you guys hope for this summer. My daughter, sinclair she lives in Miami. She's the vice president of Central Nutrition in Miami. Now, if I don't mention my other daughter, sydney, she's the national she does videos for weddings, so she would. I wanna do that. And of course, my wife has her master's in exercise science under stone and when I don't know something I go to her. Guys, it has just been a great honor to be with you.

Speaker 3: 54:01

No pleasure for us, chip. We really appreciate it and appreciate everything you've contributed to the industry. Man, when I think of S&C and what I think, what I like about it, your name's always there, my friend, and I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 54:16

Well, tony, what you're doing in both of you. I could go on and on and on. I won't, but you mean, both of you mean the world to this profession and to me.

Speaker 1: 54:26

You know what, chip? Thank you so much, you know. Your kind words are definitely appreciated. Hopefully we'll see you at ISIS then next year. I'm planning on being there, doc, bonita Springs. Hey, your daughter, I mean. If she has an interest in attending, let us know. I mean.

Speaker 2: 54:41

Yeah, she did one year last, two years ago, cause I went down there and visited her and you were in Clearwater. No, you were in Fort Lauderdale. Lauderdale, yes, we were able to visit. And she says not, but she had something come up with work and so, yeah, come on, I can talk to Dr Antonio. So you're so kind, guys, I cannot. And, by the way, merry Christmas, happy holidays to both of you here here. Same to you, chip.

Speaker 1: 55:08

Hey, merry Christmas, chip. Please one more friend. Thank you for being here. This is Chris Lines dude. You are one health of a dude, thank you.

Speaker 2: 55:15

You're the best guys, thank you, thanks, chip.