Episode 66 The Frontline of Health: Delving into First Responder Wellness with Annette Zapp and Kelly Kennedy PhD

When the siren blares and danger looms, it's our first responders who charge into the fray. But what about the personal battles they face once the uniforms come off? This episode features a riveting conversation with two authorities on first responder wellness: Annette Zapp and Kelly Kennedy. Annette, a retired lieutenant with a fire service career that spans two decades, now champions the cause of firefighter health through her wellness coaching enterprise. Kelly brings her expertise from training over 3,500 police recruits, offering a deep dive into the unique challenges of maintaining law enforcement fitness.

Annette Zapp MS CISSN is a recent retiree from a 20-year fire service career. She held the rank of Lieutenant and owns Fire Rescue Wellness, a coaching business dedicated to elevating the mental and physical wellness of firefighters worldwide. In 2020, Zapp served on an Illinois Senate task force focused on mitigating first responder suicide. She is a recognized industry leader in the firefighter health and wellness field, co-authoring the ISSN Position Stand on Tactical Athlete Fueling, and a proud member of the newly formed Associated Firefighters of Illinois Resiliency Committee. AZ also hosts the FRW podcast. Zapp earned a master's in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from the University of South Dakota School of Medicine. She is a National Strength and Conditioning Association CSCS *D and TSAC-F *D and certified by the International Society of Sports Nutrition and the Society for Sport Neuroscience. She is a former adjunct faculty member at the University of Denver in the graduate program for Sport Coaching and a frequent conference speaker.

Kelly Kennedy, PhD is one of the nation’s leading experts in fitness training for police. While working forthe largest Police Department in the Southeast United States, she has physically trained and tested thousands of police recruits and officers since 1999. During this time she has lectured on physical fitness to classes for Police, Corrections and specialized units such as the Special Response Team, Rapid Deployment Force (RDF), and Defensive Tactics Instructor. She earned her PhD from Lynn University.

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Sports Science News. I'm your host, dr Jose Antonio. We are my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. You can find us on Spotify, apple Podcast, rumble and, of course, youtube. We have two great guests today. We have Annette Zapp. She's a recent retiree from a 20-year fire service career. That's crazy 20 years.

Speaker 1: 0:25

She'll be like. I mean, 20 years doing anything is like amazing. So you held the rank of lieutenant and you own fire rescue wellness at Coaching Business, which is dedicated to elevating the mental and physical wellness of firefighters worldwide, and certainly that's an amazing service. In 2020, you served on an Illinois Senate task force focused on mitigating first responder suicide. I can only guess what local politics is like in Illinois and it cannot be fun. So you recognize industry leader in firefighter health and wellness field, co-authoring the. You are co-authoring the ISIS and position stand on tactical athletes, which is super, super cool. And I didn't know this, but you got your master's degree in biochem and molecular bio from University South Dakota School of Medicine, South Dakota.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Yes, you didn't know that. I didn't know that. I mean, I love that state. I've never been to South Dakota. All I. I just think of Mount Rushmore and that's about it. North Dakota, I guess they have oil, and then you might actually be the first person I know from that's been to South Dakota that went live there. So kind of crazy, yeah, amazing, yeah, so well, let's I don't want to like miss out on Kelly. Let's talk a little bit about Kelly Kennedy, phd. She's one of the nation's leading experts in fitness training for police. While working for the largest police department in the Southeast United States I'll let you guys guess where that is she has trained and tested over 3,500 police recruits and officers since 1999. Wow, damn, that was who was the president in 1999,.

Speaker 3: 2:11

Kelly Clinton. Kelly's like Kelly Clinton.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Yeah, Billy was the president Bill Clinton, imagine that that's hot.

Speaker 4: 2:21

I can't believe. You just asked me that question. I was like I don't know.

Speaker 2: 2:26

I was like we're prepared for that question.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Oh yeah, tony and I, yeah, we'll ask random history questions just for fun. Okay, about your PhD from Lynn University in Boca Raton, florida?

Speaker 3: 2:40

Yes, all right.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Welcome to the show, kelly, and then.

Speaker 2: 2:45

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:47

Okay, let's start with this the police, police and firefighting. I mean two professions that are super high stress. I'm gonna guess I haven't seen the data in a long time, but I'm gonna guess the leading cause of death is still heart disease for these two, for police and firefighters, considering the stress they're under. So let's start with police, since I think all of us had some interaction with police. Usually it's a speeding ticket going 100 miles an hour on I-95. So, kelly, tell us a little bit about your background working with police, how you got into that and what you're doing now with the police force.

Speaker 4: 3:27

So I started working. Actually, I was an exercise physiology assistant at a hospital when I was in grad school and-.

Speaker 1: 3:37

What years? What years was this?

Speaker 4: 3:41

This was in 97, 98.

Speaker 1: 3:44

Okay.

Speaker 4: 3:45

And so I was teaching as a substitute instructor for aerobics at the police department. Somebody needed to have assistance. So I went to go teach aerobics and I was like, hold on a second. They have a fitness center here, so they had a manager who had a master's degree and exercise phys and they had a whole wellness program. And so I was teaching at the.

Speaker 4: 4:14

I was working at the hospital and I was teaching at the university, actually as an adjunct instructor when I was finishing my master's, and so I ended up teaching there for four years but I had no health insurance and so I said look, I really wanna see if I can get a full-time job. Do you guys have anything that you are gonna be opening up? And they said, yeah, we may have a position opening up, you can apply. And so I applied and I was there working in the evening from like noon until 9 pm. So my main responsibility at the time was to teach like aerobics and to do some personal training for them, and I was working full-time. But I was still working at the university full time, not a part time. So I did that for the first year and then I was promoted to the manager when the manager left. So when he left I applied and then a year later I took over the PT program for the recruits. So I started to supervise the instructors that were teaching the recruits, and that was only because we had some scheduling issues.

Speaker 4: 5:20

One of the things that happens in police departments is that you look to see like you know what. You look like you're in good shape, you're gonna lead PT for the recruits and or you're gonna take over the wellness program, and so when you see injuries occurring, you really don't know why they're happening. And so one person postulates it's because the recruits are in poor condition and another person says, no, well, it only happens. It happened because it was a really hot day that day and no one really knows how to figure out what is the cause of the injuries. So when we see like an increase in injuries, they came to me and they're like we think the instructors are injuring our recruits and I'm like, well, I've never really seen them teach. Can I tonight just watch and see what they're doing? And actually what they're doing was appropriate.

Speaker 4: 6:11

What they, what was happening and this is really interesting is that they were seeing an uptick in injuries because scheduling was logistically trying to solve a problem where they were trying to reduce downtime and those recruits having to change in the locker room. So they said, well, they have defensive tactics for like four hours, so the hour before they have defensive tactics they can do an hour of PT. That way they don't have to change out. So they did an hour of PT, which was appropriate, and then they would do a couple hours of joint manipulation afterwards and then they would get injured and they were wondering why this is happening. But they weren't looking at like the fatigue factor, because it just wasn't even on their radar. And why should it be? Cause it wasn't even something that they were thinking about.

Speaker 4: 7:01

So when looking at like it can be sometimes minutia that can change the reality of injury trends. And then other times it is a misunderstanding of how instructors are gauging intensity based on where they are in their training phases. Sometimes they apply like end game training phases too far in the beginning of a training program. So there's a lot of different reasons why people can see injury trends that are really not the instructor's fault. Oftentimes they're really not sure when to apply certain principles of fitness because they don't understand how it's supposed to fall in the context of the program, so, and they're only there for a short time, right? So they're only teaching them for one to two years and then they're in another unit, they go to firearms, they go to DT, they go back on the road, they become an investigator, and so there are no best practices to actually pass from one person to the other.

Speaker 4: 8:00

So when you have someone in my position, I get to see it firsthand from my little plasma screen. Like I can see what's happening and why it happens, and so I'm able to really articulate that to people coming in. So it makes it. It's a unique way to have this little eye on what's really happening, but it's not something that many departments. Many departments don't have that luxury and they haven't really had that luxury for someone to be there as long as I have. So I've been there like 24 years at this point and so I would say that that's kind of like a minority of departments that have somebody in my position.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Interesting. We'll get back to you, but let's hear a little bit from Annette, because I know your passion is firefighting and after a 20-year career you retired. So tell us a little bit about your background.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Yeah. So my story is a little bit different than Kelly's. I was a strength and conditioning coach who found the fire service by accident. Same story as Kelly, though no benefits, no pay, time off, no insurance, and so I was looking for a real job and I found the fire service. And what I tell people is that I'm a biochemist by degree, I'm a strength and conditioning coach and a nutritionist by credential. I'm a firefighter by trade, but I'm a business owner because I found what broke my heart.

Speaker 2: 9:27

And what breaks my heart is we take men and women, civilians. They raise their right hand and they promise to protect and serve the community in which they work, to risk their life for the lives of others, but what they don't realize is that no one is looking out for them. Very few fire departments have the resources to provide professional oversight for firefighters, and so much like the PD, the chief usually looks for the fittest person. Oh, you run marathons, let's have you be in charge of the health and wellness program Actually, they say fitness program because they don't know better and so you get a person that's a firefighter that has absolutely no experience, credentials or qualifications, trying to do their best for their agency, and it just doesn't work very well, and so once my heart got broken, I started my business, and the premise of my business is education. So whether that's lecturing, hands-on program management, program design consultations, it all comes back to. I am a firefighter, so I understand both sides of the coin and that's kind of the best way that I interface with departments.

Speaker 1: 10:47

How are we Like when you work with athletes, whether they're football players, baseball players, mixed martial arts fighters, athletes are quite receptive to being coached because they want to get better. What's it like within the culture of firefighting, in the police force, in terms of you're there to educate, is it? Do they think of themselves as athletes and that you're there to make them better, or is there a little bit of pushback?

Speaker 4: 11:14

Well, I mean, they don't think of themselves as athletes. In fact, when you go to a police department, you're like you guys are tactical athletes, did you know that? And they're like, no, I have diabetes and I just had gastric bypass. So, no, I don't feel like an athlete. And so when we look at, this is a romantic idea of how we describe law enforcement, because we have an image in our head of what that looks like. But these are people that have just exactly like Annette said, that they haven't had the support that they need and they have a lot of inflammation. They're dealing with high blood pressure, obesity, tremendous amount of work, a lot of overtime, not sleeping enough. So no, are they receptive to people telling them? That's kind of like I think that that's what strength and conditioning calls them when we're at conferences and that's a really cool word to say and I know why the word was created and I think that it's effective from that paradigm. But when connecting with an actual police officer, I think that what they deal with is a sense of shame when it comes to how much drift they've seen in their own fitness and how the expectation of where they feel they should be as compared to where they are. The disconnect is so wide that sometimes it becomes too much for them to want to seek out any, for them to be called out for their lack of fitness. So when people come to me, they're coming to me because they know they want information. I actually, because I've been there for so long, I've been teaching them when they were in the academy, when they were in the SWAT school, when they went to the DT school, so they know me in a certain capacity and I think that that reduces barriers to entry because they already see me in that role. But if I was new it would be different, and when I was new you just have to make sure to be far more educated and respectful of knowing when you are in their lane like different than Annette.

Speaker 4: 13:33

Annette is a firefighter, so she can already connect with people as a firefighter, but I am not a police officer. You will never hear me use jargon, because that does not make anyone feel like I know them better. What it does is make them it looks weak and it makes me look bleeding, like I'm trying too hard. They are what they do and I am what I do, and they have more respect for me when I think I let them know. Look, this is not what I do. I am not a cop, but I have worked in the law enforcement space my entire professional career. So and I think that that's something that Annette, it has an amazing perspective. She has like a perfect kind of merger to that and my work around is just acknowledging that elephant in the room.

Speaker 3: 14:20

So and I just want to ask a quick question, gal, and then I think Annette could follow up too when she speaks to this the resistance to the term athlete is that through the entire lifespan of the career, I mean even at the entry level, or is that more so what we see as they've been on the department in 15 years, as an example, because she was saying a lot of times, no, I have type two as an example, or I can't do this. I would assume the somebody coming into the department at a younger age doesn't yet have adult onset disease. But is there still a resistance kind of to that terminology or the concept that, hey, they are a tactical athlete?

Speaker 4: 15:00

No, I don't think that they feel like tactical athletes even at the beginning of their career. I don't think that they connect with that word necessarily much at all. In fact, at the beginning, in the first week of the Academy, I asked them how many people feel this is a very, very physical career, and a lot of them will raise their hand yeah, I think this is a really physical career and the reality is that it is a very sedentary job that has intermittent bouts of all out fighting for your life, right? So the romantic idea that there's a lot of physical activity every day and that you're engaging with people every single day is based on false reality of, maybe, how law enforcement works. If they've ever done a ride along, they're spending a lot of time in the car, right, they get out. Imagine you're driving to like Disney for four hours and then you have to get out of the car and run after somebody. Your hips are still, they're still bent. You're like wait, hold on. Let me just get my hips correct Because you know.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Kelly, I'm going to have to warm up for about 20 minutes, I know yeah, it's like difficult.

Speaker 4: 16:09

So I mean, I don't know, Annette, what do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 16:12

Well, it's interesting. I don't generally use the term tactical athletes for the fire service, but what I tell them is that they should be treating themselves like athletes and so paying attention to their sleep and their nutrition and their cardiovascular health. And when I talk to departments, I say you should provide services to your members as if they were a professional athlete. But I think the key to working with fire is I always explain it like this you cannot bully someone who willingly walks into a 1000 degree oven. We're not right. There's something not right about us. Our nervous systems are set a little bit different than other peoples, Otherwise we wouldn't be able to do the job.

Speaker 2: 17:03

If a professional comes in and say a dietician and does the you should and you those types of things, we shut them off. The most incredibly effective thing, I think, for both police and fire, is meeting them precisely exactly where they are. And if where they are is fast food twice a day and a six pack of full sugar soda, then that's where we start and acknowledge where we can make just little tiny improvements to get them feeling better. Don't bully firefighters. It's not going to work Right.

Speaker 3: 17:36

And that's the whole motivational interviewing type concept, where you are meeting them there.

Speaker 3: 17:41

And I think that particularly with the firefighter or police officer. You know, strong personality, very courageous and very strong in their qualities. But honestly that I think why people are not successful in nutrition is those who are counseling them will not meet them where they are. To your point, they start right off the bat. You know, I've got guys in California writing books on how people should eat in the middle of Lincoln, Nebraska, right when they when they raise cattle in their back yard. So my point of that is I think that's in everything we do, I don't think we meet people where they are and try to try to navigate with them out of that, as opposed to just tell them where they're supposed to land. So that's a great point, yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:25

Yeah, you know it's interesting in terms of physical fitness of, you know, fire versus police. There is not, at least my perception, you know, from the outside looking, and there's not a perception that firefighters are out of shape. If anything, there's a perception that they will do things that not no ordinary human being would do. And you say, walking into 1000 degree oven. Believe me, if there's one thing I hate, it's a 1000 degree oven. However, on the other side, in terms of the police force, there is this stereotype or a type where you know people will ask why is it? You know these cops, they've been working for 10, 15 years. Is there a push I don't know if it's city level, county level to maintain some semblance or minimal level of physical fitness? Or is that just something? It's like? You know they got so much other stuff to do, we can't really worry about that, kelly.

Speaker 4: 19:19

Yeah, so there is. It's not a fitness like, it's not kind of like a measure of fitness as much as a measure of physical proficiency, like when they go for an annual retraining and they have like they have to go for like an annual, you know, requalification every year or two years depending on, depending on the department or the state requirements sometimes, like our department does every year, but they have to be able to meet the physical requirement of that training. And if they can't meet the physical requirement of the training then that's an issue. But but we can't make it on like what their capacity is to do some sort of work like run or do push ups, or you know we can't really have like a minimum for that. We do have, we do have a, an obstacle course that was created specifically for the minimum requirement to get on to the job, but it's not required for incumbents, it's not required for our officers to maintain during the year, but our specialized units have to maintain that on a yearly basis. So which?

Speaker 1: 20:35

which are the specialized units you're referring to?

Speaker 4: 20:38

Canine and our SWAT team.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Interesting. So for the SWAT, I would imagine they would be. If you were to rank them in terms of fitness general fitness they would be the highest.

Speaker 4: 20:50

Yeah, it would represent maybe the top 1%.

Speaker 1: 20:53

And then the canine group. I would imagine those dogs are quite expensive to train.

Speaker 4: 20:58

Yeah, yeah yeah, they're expensive to train but they train with, with like a heavy bag to replicate like the weight of a dog.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Oh really.

Speaker 4: 21:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:13

That's amazing. Now, annette, I know in the you know when you're, when you're looking at the way, I guess, depending on where you live like I've lived in places where it was purely a volunteer firefighting force, which I don't know how these guys and girls like support themselves if they're volunteering, you know getting no money at all. And then there's others where obviously they're getting paid, maybe in New York City or some of the big metropolitan areas. There must be a huge discrepancy in terms of the resources. You have the volunteer people and then you have people getting paid.

Speaker 2: 21:45

Well, first thing I want to address really quickly there the perception that fire is fit is actually quite, quite inaccurate. 80% of the fire service is overweight and obese and what I tell them, tell them, is listen, I know that you can get the job done, but at what cost? At what physiological cost to your body? And so 80% of the fire service is overweight and obese. And also 80% of the fire service is volunteer, so it's a huge, huge number of volunteers.

Speaker 3: 22:20

Wow, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Uh-huh, yes, and so usually volunteer fire service has very little resources. You would be correct. Now on the East Coast there are, like Loudoun County, one of the richest counties in the United States, or the richest. Their volunteer fire service has tons of money. They have nicer fire stations than the career firefighters. But, to your point, joey, those men and women who volunteer are your local mortician. They're the drugstore owner, they're the guy that owns the bar, and they actually probably have greater challenges with their sleep than career firefighters, because they're always quote unquote on duty. As long as you're in town, somebody's got to go pick up Mabel off the floor, and so they might be getting up every single night, as opposed to my schedule which is every third night. So the volunteer fire service is. It's a huge challenge, but it's a huge need. So much of the country just is not covered by career firefighters.

Speaker 3: 23:28

Where I grew up almost Nassar County on Long Island there might be three-page Long Beach, maybe three I almost don't know of any paid fire departments where I grew up. The town I grew up in is all volunteer actually and almost every surrounding town is volunteer, but I didn't realize it's 80% nationally, you said, and that is volunteer.

Speaker 2: 23:51

Yeah, and so my hometown. I say my hometown but I only live there a couple years, but my parents still live there. Population 1500. It's entirely volunteer and they don't even have enough airpacks for every person that shows up on the fire scene to have an airpack. So it's the Wild West and the volunteers.

Speaker 3: 24:15

Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Kelly, we were. Before we started you were telling us a little bit about you know you teach defensive tactics instruction and I had asked if it was firearms or if it's actual self-defense. Tell us a little bit about that in terms of how you would train someone who isn't familiar with it.

Speaker 4: 24:38

So just to clarify. So I went through the defensive tactics instructor course for this state because I wanted to know what the recruit, what the physical requirement would be for our recruits going through that program. I thought that it was really important for me to have better context to understand, like how, what, what are the considerations of things that they have to go through physically, so that I could assist the instructors to, you know, maybe bridge the gap between what it is that they may not they may find difficult in training them. So when I went through the course I got certified, but I don't teach as a like a defensive tactics instructor at the academy. My main thing is just straight line fitness, fitness training and I teach all of the stuff about like pre and post workout nutrition and hydration. So if somebody wanted to do any sort of defensive tactics, I would direct them right to those instructors to say you need to work with them.

Speaker 3: 25:42

A quick question on that. Do those? I would assume they potentially change? I don't know about where you are, but I could speak to and I've never been on it nor lived in a New York City as an example, though, where essentially, as a police officer, you really can't do anything or it's very risky, but so does the nature of the tactics, out of curiosity, have to change annually to meet the new laws that are put in place, maybe, or to what a police officer can or cannot do, is the state has like an update that they do and the update will refresh, like the curriculum.

Speaker 4: 26:18

But the basic training curriculum usually stays the same Because it's like considered the minimum, like actions that they would have to be taught in order to pass their state exam. Because they have like an exam that would be part of the basic training curriculum for the state and then you know, whatever it is that the department allows for further training outside of that would happen after all of that curriculum is done.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Now, in terms of conveying both nutrition and perhaps supplement information, what are some of the, I guess, myths or misconceptions firefighters and people in the police force would have in terms of nutrition and supplements? Is it what the common general public has? Is it the same kind of like you know, proteins bad for you, creatine does this or is it different? Do they ask different questions?

Speaker 2: 27:21

This is an interesting question. Information, at least in the firehouse, whether it's good information or bad information, spreads like wildfire. And so I walked into a fire department a few years ago and they had the giant drums of metamucil on the countertop. And so that was their technique to get quote, unquote their fiber, so they didn't have to eat their fruits and vegetables, and every single firehouse had the drum of metamucil. Interesting, you know, I hear the pushback sometimes creating the steroid. It hurts your kidneys, it makes you go bald, but the education process we're getting there with creatinine and with protein.

Speaker 2: 28:04

I would say the biggest challenge in the fire service is caffeine abuse. I mean, and we can't say, guys, you shouldn't have any caffeine, we can't say that. But the energy drink use is rampant. They're really fond of the bangs, which, as we know, are 300 milligrams of caffeine, and it's nothing to see them do two, three, four bangs a day, or a couple of bangs a pre-workout, some coffee, and it's incredible because it's very disruptive to their sleep. I don't know if it's the same in the police department, kelly, but wow, the caffeine is killing us.

Speaker 4: 28:44

Yeah Well, so it depends on like. So same kind of like considerations when it comes to rules on like creatine and caffeine use in, let's say, the academy. You know caffeine causes dehydration, creatine, you know, will make you, will injure you, type of thing, and so these are things that I think we're still kind of trying to kind of deal with. But I think that that's just because it's constantly a new generation of people right coming through. So, having like five classes concurrently or four classes concurrently, you're having all sorts of like new people coming in and they have all of the same kind of like concerns. But I do think that it's getting better, just with understanding, maybe, how much protein they can take it without any fear of their kidneys stopping working, just not working more.

Speaker 2: 29:47

They should have been out.

Speaker 4: 29:48

Sorry, Did I say that? Can you just look at that? I didn't mean to say it like that. So you know, like I don't know. I think that it's very similar to the normal things that we think of. But you're right, the energy drinks.

Speaker 4: 30:04

But I think a lot of it has to do with just constantly like revving the engine and not knowing how to, how to be flexible when it comes to stimulating your nervous system.

Speaker 4: 30:17

You know that whole like sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system activation thing. I think that they're just so used to revving their engine that they're not, they're not able to get out of the fact that it's affecting their sleep when they're constantly exposing themselves to so much caffeine and that they can't like bring it down. So then they use alcohol to calm themselves down because that will help them, you know, calm down and then maybe get some sleep, and then when they wake up again they're like oh, I didn't get that great asleep, I need a little more caffeine. And they're on this like kind of like rotating cycle. I think that anybody dealing with stress deals with that too, but I do think that it's a little bit more prevalent, you know, in the first responder community, especially from what I've seen in police, you know, and I think it's an area of opportunity from a wellness perspective to really kind of bring those things to light.

Speaker 1: 31:12

So what you're saying is you should not mix Red Bull and vodka. Is that what you're?

Speaker 4: 31:16

saying Only on Saturday night. Joey, you know what, joey?

Speaker 3: 31:21

Alcohol is dangerous.

Speaker 2: 31:24

I think that we are where we were in sports science 30 years ago meaning the researchers are doing the good shit, but the coaches maybe the strength coaches, whatever in sports science are like they don't know what they're talking about. They're full of it, and eventually we came around. Well, I think that's where we are now, and at least in fire and maybe in police too. And so this is. This is why our mutual friend, drew Gonzalez and I came up with this. It's called seven minute science, and so we asked seven. We've done it twice now, but seven of the top researchers in fire. We said you get seven minutes and not one second longer. No tiny graphs, no complicated explanations. Tell us about your research and then tell us what to do with it. And so little tiny bites like that are starting to make it to the fire service. But we just we need more of that, and I think we probably need in law enforcement too. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned 30 years ago, because if you go back to when the NSEA first started I guess this would be the late seventies, early eighties the prevailing sort of wisdom of the time from the American College of Sports Medicine was that weight training was unnecessary. So, and that's well. I was about to say that's in our lifetime, but that's in my lifetime and Tony's lifetime Not. I don't know about your lifetime. So it's interesting how, within our lifetime, it is switched from weight training isn't necessary. You don't need to have big muscles to.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Oh my God, everyone should do resistance training, regardless of sport or profession. So maybe I mean you guys are sort of trailblazers in the field. Maybe in 20 or 30 years it'll be like oh yeah, this is what we do. And then and that's like, yeah, I was talking about that 30 years ago. And Kelly's like, oh yeah, we should have been doing that 30 years ago. But I guess it just takes time because people in the profession, who are used to doing it a certain way, they're like this is how we've done it Maybe when they retire you know I always say when old scientists retire, that's when the new ideas come out because the old scientists are like you know, I don't know what they're doing, but they're not arguing with us, so it takes time. But you know, sometimes you just got to have more endurance than the other guy, right?

Speaker 4: 33:38

Yeah Well, and you have to have someone to like get the information and then repackage it in a digestible format. So you know one of the things that I struggle with personally. So you know, annette started her business. I started my business in 2003, because people fit to enforce, because people were asking me to help them at their departments because they didn't know they didn't have any. We didn't have anything in place to allow me to go other places.

Speaker 4: 34:07

But I know that there was a bunch of people that were struggling with not knowing what to do with their own fitness and they were just taking ideas from other people and creating PowerPoints and teaching each other because that's all the resources they were given.

Speaker 4: 34:23

So it is a huge problem. And a big problem is repackaging the information that you can get from you know. So when I teach for fit to enforce, I tell them about the you know the position stands of the ISSN, and then I pull them up and I just show them the abstract and I'm like look, this is the stuff, this is the bottom line, because all of the other stuff is great background information, but we really just like need the bottom line. So whenever you're not sure about how to do like a. Like someone asks you tell, direct them over there, because that way there's at least a resource that you can go to, that you know that the information is going to be is going to be valid, because I still ask people to just send me their PowerPoints and I'll go through them so that I can make sure that they make sense, because oftentimes they don't have enough resources. They're pulling stuff off of Pinterest to do a really pretty president interest Pinterest.

Speaker 4: 35:24

I didn't know.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Pinterest was still around.

Speaker 4: 35:26

It is yeah, people not use it anymore. I did, I did myself, I did myself.

Speaker 3: 35:31

Thank you, they pull it off, it's still there. It always pops up when I'm looking for something.

Speaker 4: 35:36

AI. Okay, so they're asking chat, gpt, which actually may be more accurate, but, like what I've seen is that you know they'll just put like really cool pictures that they find out the internet and they're inaccurate. But they're responsible for teaching and they who do they go to? Who do they petition to? And so the biggest challenge is that when you have someone like Annette or you have someone like myself that's able to digest the information and regurgitate it out to them in a digestible way, that's great. But when you don't have anybody and you have somebody that's a career firefighter, this is wellness, and fitness is not what they meant to do for their life. So then we're asking them to do something with no support really, and that's why I think that, like that's how Fit to Enforce started is just to really help affect like a meaningful change for people that were looking for better resources, I mean, you know. So that's what I think about that.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Annette, what's your Pinterest interest?

Speaker 2: 36:42

I actually don't have a Pinterest account, but what Kelly said is absolutely true, and I always say this it doesn't. And I learned this at the ISSN. I learned that in order to give a good talk, you have to tell a story, and it doesn't matter if you're talking about protein metabolism, if you're talking about whatever. You have to tell a story. And so you have to entertain, starting at the bottom. Entertain, inspire and then only then, can you educate. And if you can possibly relate and validate, and there somehow they're going to listen. But you take a cop or you take a firefighter that's been given this additional duty. They might not even want it, and now they have to come up with a presentation. And how good is that presentation going to be? Or you get Dr Sean Arant to give a presentation on metabolism. It blows their hair back and now they're interested. So, with this population especially, you have to captivate them.

Speaker 1: 37:48

You gotta captivate pretty much anyone. I think the idea, you know it's so true, you gotta tell a story, and without the story, the audience will never relate to you. You know it's sort of like, I hate to say, but the worst PowerPoints are the ones that put facts up on there. It's like, okay, I could read these bullet points on my own, I don't need to have facts thrown at me. You gotta make me relate to it somehow. So, and Kelly, you're good at telling those stories as well, I know you're a great storyteller.

Speaker 4: 38:21

Well, hey, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Oh, I was just gonna say we can put a pin in this, but if there's time, I think we need to tell our origin story at the end, so put a pin in that.

Speaker 1: 38:32

Origin story I am. That has piqued my interest.

Speaker 2: 38:36

Let's do it. Piqued enough to tell you now yeah, what's this?

Speaker 1: 38:40

origin story. I wanna hear it.

Speaker 2: 38:43

So Kelly and I have been really good friends for since 20, is it 18, Kelly? I think 2018? I think so. But here's how we met. I went to the Tactical Annual Conference in Virginia and I went by myself and I was sort of coming out of my shell at that time, but I wasn't by myself and so I went down to the really nice restaurant to have a meal and, as Joey and Tony can probably guess, I'm wearing my ISSN bag, the green one, the good one.

Speaker 3: 39:19

I like that one.

Speaker 2: 39:20

I have it on the seat by me. I'm just eating my meal and this lovely woman says to me "'Excuse me, are you involved with the ISSN'. And I said, "'i am, why do you ask'. And it was Kelly Kennedy, like the OG, one of the OG ISSN people, and we had such a great conversation. I mean how ironic the police lady and the fire lady meet at a restaurant. We had such a great conversation that I was gonna be late for my presentation. I was going to. I went running out like see you later. We changed information and then I proceeded to try to go. Must have been up the down escalator, got my toes stuck in it, shredded up my sandal. It was a whole thing. But everyone says how did you guys meet? How did you become such good friends? The ISSN, yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:14

There you go, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:16

Kelly. That's an awesome story. Kelly, do you recall when we were in Austin riding the rickshaw with or is it the horses? The horse and buggy?

Speaker 4: 40:24

No, yes, it was a rickshaw. It was a rickshaw and I'm like let's take the rickshaw, and Joey's like no, we can just walk. And I'm like what? Is so much more fun, let's do the rickshaw.

Speaker 3: 40:35

I'm like OK.

Speaker 4: 40:36

I saw the video of that, by the way.

Speaker 1: 40:38

Oh, it's hilarious. That video is so funny. I was surprised because Liza was with us. I was surprised that they could pull us.

Speaker 4: 40:47

Right, yeah, I mean, it was just one guy on a bike.

Speaker 2: 40:51

With three passengers. Yes, three passengers.

Speaker 4: 40:56

I would like to rent those and see if we can do a challenge with that. That would be so fun.

Speaker 1: 41:00

The rickshaw challenge at ISSN Bonita Springs yes.

Speaker 2: 41:05

Yeah, I think that's good. I feel like I threw off the whole flavor of the conversation, but I really felt that was important to you.

Speaker 4: 41:15

Oh, it's super important, it was super important.

Speaker 1: 41:16

No, that's good. That's good. I like those kinds of stories. I've only known a few people who have, particularly in the police force, who have chosen to become cops. I don't know anyone who's volunteered to be a firefighter and I've always wondered from your experience what's the decision-making process, particularly for police, Because I think right now, police, the media, just batters the police. It's totally unfortunate and definitely undeserved, Like what would prompt someone to say, hey, I want to be a police officer. Now, obviously, being a police officer in Boca Raton, Florida, is different than being a police officer in Jacksonville Florida. So, Kelly, tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 4: 42:02

Why people choose to do it.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Yeah, yes.

Speaker 4: 42:05

Oftentimes they choose to do it because their family was involved in it. Usually they know somebody that was involved in law enforcement. Sometimes they're inspired by other people. They were part of some sort of like. We have young recruits that it's Explorer program. So if they're interested in being police officers they can be in an Explorer program and they are kind of introduced to it that way. Sometimes they've met someone that has inspired them, or the TV shows maybe do it.

Speaker 4: 42:48

But I agree with you, there is a lot of opposition. There's not a lot of glamour when it comes to enforcing laws right now, especially in media. So they don't have a great PR campaign going right now. But I think that that's temporary, like as is anything is temporary. I mean, my dad was a firefighter so I always love firefighters and I always had like a. My heart was with firefighters because my dad was a firefighter. But I really didn't know a lot of police before I worked with them and I found it intimidating to when I was a kid when I saw a police officer walking around because I know that they were there to enforce. I didn't want to misbehave, so I was worried.

Speaker 1: 43:45

Were you stoplifting Starburst when you were little?

Speaker 4: 43:49

You know, let me tell you I am such a wool follower it's like, if you tell me to not, ok, I'm going to tell you a really weird story, because it's kind of funny. I was on a show called Duck Duck Goose when I was like three, and so I was there with a bunch of little three-year-olds and the host was supposed to sit on a mushroom seat and I was sitting on his mushroom and he told me excuse me, I'm supposed to sit on that mushroom, so you have to sit down. And I was just crushed. I felt like so embarrassed that I was sitting on his mushroom.

Speaker 1: 44:28

So if I am like I'm just going to take that quote and use it, I'm going to clip that five seconds.

Speaker 3: 44:37

I'm dying.

Speaker 4: 44:40

Something else. Something else horrible happened to me when I was in second grade. I missed one day of school and they told me that they brought a live smurf to show and tell that day that I had day that I missed. If he was about three apples high. And I'm still not over it. This was a real live one. It's my only opportunity. Oh my god, that's two times I broke a rule, kelly, so don't miss school and don't sit on anybody else's mushroom.

Speaker 1: 45:12

I avoid that, kelly. I do, oh my god, an idea of a mushroom story.

Speaker 2: 45:19

There's no, oh my god, there's tears running down my eyes. I would say from my perspective, most of the people I work with wanted to be a firefighter from a young age. I knew nothing about the fire service until I was in my 30s. I was very oblivious to it. But what we know in some of the research is that people that seek helping careers so police, fire, military and potentially nursing those type of careers may have experienced adverse childhood experiences which may then lay into the.

Speaker 2: 45:55

And for me it was kind of like I'm not going to let anything that happened to me in my early life happen to anyone else. I'm saving the world, and so I think there's that. I also think that at least in the early 2000s the perspective was firefighting is a great job, great benefits, great time off, get to drive a big sexy ladder truck, great insurance, and I mean things have shifted for us a little bit too, and what I'm realizing is that even though I work one day and have two days off, those two days off I'm paying the piper for that terrible day that I had when I was on duty. So I guess people go into the career for all kinds of reasons, but there's some big bullet points that usually tick most of the marks.

Speaker 1: 46:43

Interesting. Hey, before I forget, I want to promote the ISSN conference. It's the 21st conference, june 18 to 20. It's in Bonita Springs, florida. You need to fly for those who fly into the Fort Myers Airport, so we're at a resort. It has get this. Kelly. Annette has a lazy river. You could sit in an inn at you. Oh god, you could just float around the hotel, just float. And what happened to Kelly's voice?

Speaker 3: 47:11

I don't know she's bad. What did I do?

Speaker 1: 47:13

I don't know they were like you were like Charlie Chaplin for a second there.

Speaker 2: 47:18

Dude, there was a lazy river at a conference a couple of years ago. I did not set foot in it. I'm like nobody needs to be seeing me in some sort of bathing suit, floating, floating like a whale, not happening.

Speaker 1: 47:33

Well, I have a feeling many people will be there, rather than the riveting lectures that we're planning, so I just thought I'd put that out there. So, kelly, you'll be there right. Annette, you'll be there right.

Speaker 2: 47:44

I'm hoping to be. I'm gonna be moving right around that time. What Moving where? Oh gosh, give me address. No, well, okay, kelly and I were looking for a house for me in North Carolina just a couple of weeks ago. I was with Kelly, we were looking on Zillow, I was all set to move close to Abby and Eric Ryan, and now I have this wild hair. I might can I say the F word on your podcast.

Speaker 1: 48:08

We say it all the time.

Speaker 2: 48:10

I might fuck around and find out and get a PhD at Oklahoma State. Ooh, we like that With Jay Dodds.

Speaker 1: 48:18

I don't think that's well. That's an F word that you know it's okay to say. I think you should do it.

Speaker 2: 48:26

I know I think I should do it, so now I might be moving to Oklahoma.

Speaker 3: 48:30

I actually love Oklahoma. I've been through that state over and over again. Good people.

Speaker 2: 48:35

You do, cause I hate the red dirt. I hate it.

Speaker 3: 48:38

Yeah, but good folks. Good people Some of the nicest I've ever met.

Speaker 2: 48:43

You know what they have in Oklahoma Oklahomans and tornadoes.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Hey, you know that's kind of like Nebraska, except Nebraska has corn as well.

Speaker 4: 48:54

Corn yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:57

Hey, by the way, cause I taught at University of Nebraska. They do have the best corn I've ever tasted, and I'm not even a corn fan. But when I had corn there I'm like, wow, this corn is really good. I'm surprised I'm a corn fan now, not that I'm in Nebraska, but, you know, left after two years of Nebraska prison, hell. So, but you know what I think you should do? That it's. I always say this it's an endurance event, right, getting a PhD. The other thing is, you know people will say, well, you'll be this age when you're finished, or this age, I'm like shit, I'm going to be that age anyways. I mean you know there's what's I mean. That's never to me, that's never a good argument for not pursuing it. So you know I'm a big fan. Do it, do it, do it. I mean Jay. Jay's a great guy, great guy to work with. That's Oklahoma State or University of Oklahoma.

Speaker 2: 49:51

Oh, Oklahoma State. Jay would be very mad if he said University of Oklahoma, Cowboys okay.

Speaker 1: 49:56

You're a cowboy, you know, when you're in Florida, oklahoma State, oklahoma, it's kind of like Florida, or is it Florida State? Ah, you know, people are like oh my God, you know, ladies, we're out of, we're running out of time. Do you have any? You know? Final words, thoughts where people can find you If they want to stalk you, kelly. How would they best stalk you? You as well, isn't it?

Speaker 4: 50:19

It's 2enforcecom.

Speaker 2: 50:21

It's 2enforcecom and you can. You can stalk me at firerescuewellnessorg or on Instagram, firerescuewellness. That's the best way to stalk.

Speaker 1: 50:31

Awesome, awesome. Well, this was a very entertaining show, yeah, thank you so much. I must say I do like those stories. Those are my favorites, tony. Any final words for?

Speaker 3: 50:45

No, just you guys, ladies. You're doing great work, and for good people, those who work hard. I think we underestimate sometimes how difficult those jobs are, how mentally stressful they are, and we take people on both fire and police as granted all too often. So I think they're fortunate to have both of you there, improve the quality of their job performance, but the quality of their life probably even more so. So great work. I'm glad you're on the forefront and I hope more people do what you do in the future, or more departments are open to designing such programs, because they're very obviously quite needed. Yeah, thanks, thanks for having us. Thanks, kelly.