Episode 68 Danny Ching - World-Class Paddler Offers Insights into Training

Ever wondered how the pros master the waves and winds on their paddleboards? Paddle into the expertise of Danny Ching, a maestro of stand-up paddleboarding and outrigger canoeing, as he spills the secrets on harnessing the power of paddle strokes and why rest days are not just about kicking back. He's joined by Victoria Burgess, a fellow paddler with a PhD, who offers a splash of knowledge on navigating the diverse waters of South Florida.

Timeline:

1:26 Danny was also a Dragon Boat racing champion

3:08 How important is training volume for stand-up paddling (SUP)? 

4:20 Danny grew up paddling OC; compares OC to SUP. 

6:07 Training for a SUP race, Danny does a bit of a mix of OC and SUP. He treats SUP as fine-tuning. Minimum of 4 hours per week with 2 hours very hard.

9:40 What we have learned from SUP, we glean from other sports.

10:00 68-74 inch paddle – is what Danny uses 

13:04 Does making a board lighter make that much of a difference? Is volume key? 

14:27 A lighter board will pick up speed quicker…but also slow down quicker.

16:25 Adding a concavity to the bottom of the board might increase stability

19:36 Stroke rate in SUP – does it “matter?” Because conditions are always different, does using a specific cadence make sense?

24:51 When do you pull the paddle out of the water?

29:09 The wind in Florida. Am I paddling to “train?” Or is it just “exercise?”

29:35 Make sure you are “training” when you paddle. You aren’t just “exercising.”

31:54 Dry land recommendation for SUP training

32:44 A 76-year-old is the oldest person to come to Danny to learn how to paddle

39:20 Nutrition is so underplayed – Victoria Burgess

42:52 Periodization may be overblown in endurance sports

43:37 Danny is not familiar with his daily protein intake

43:58 Danny’s thoughts on periodization – interesting take

49:40 The 200 meter sprint record

Daniel Dawson Hepala Hakuole Ching, is a professional standup paddleboarder and outrigger canoe paddler from Redondo Beach, California, United States. With the 404 and Hippostick, these brands were co-founded by Danny. Father of 2 girls. OC1 world champion; SUP world champion; Dragon Boat world champion. Ching is also known for his involvement in promoting the sport through clinics, workshops, and demonstrations, inspiring enthusiasts of all levels to pursue their passion for paddling. His dedication to the sport and commitment to excellence continue to inspire paddlers around the world. You can find him on Instagram at dannyching404

Hosted by Jose Antonio, PhD

Dr. Antonio is the co-founder and CEO of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and the co-founder of the Society for Sports Neuroscience, www.issn.net. Dr. Antonio has over 120 peer-reviewed publications and 16 books. He is a Professor at Nova Southeastern University, Davie, Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Twitter: @JoseAntonioPhD

Instagram: the_issn and supphd

Co-host Anthony Ricci EdD

Dr Ricci is an expert on Fight Sports and is currently an Assistant Professor at Nova Southeastern University in Davie Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Instagram: sportpsy_sci_doc and fightshape_ricci

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Sports Science Dudes. I am your host, dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. Also joining us is fellow PhD and paddler, victoria Burgess. You can find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts, rumble and YouTube. Our special guest today we get athletes on occasion, usually fighters, but I'm happy that we have someone who paddles, because Victoria and I talk about paddling all the time and we're in South Florida so everyone has to paddle. But our special guest is Danny Ching. He's a professional stand-up paddleboarder. Also does outrigger canoe OC1, oc6. He lives in Redondo Beach, florida. I'm not sure exactly. I mean Florida, california, is that? Where's that relative to Los Angeles? I'm not sure.

Speaker 2: 0:50

It's like 20 minutes from LAX on the beach. Los Angeles is 20 minutes away.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Ah, okay okay.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Yeah right, where you land, when you come in on the plane, everything to your right.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Awesome. Now he also. He co-founded two major brands the 404, if you love, paddle boards. Also the Hippo Stick, which is my favorite paddling my favorite paddle. He's also the father of two girls. In fact, I like the videos where you're teaching them paddling. I can't imagine, you know, having little kids out there, but they feel very comfortable with you, so that's super cool. Um, also, I didn't know you were actually a dragon boat world champion, in addition to oc1 and stand-up paddling, because pulled me into that one.

Speaker 2: 1:34

Oh dragon was pretty big. It's uh 20 people in a boat all trying to work together and, uh, the nice thing is it's very similar to the outrage which I grew up with, so that was an easy transition for me.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Yeah, it's funny. You watch some of the and, victoria, I'm sure you've seen some of the Dragon Boaters down here. Sometimes when I watch them I feel like I'm watching Caterpillars. If you're not in sync, it's just a bunch of paddles going. I'm going to use this crazy self. So Danny's also. He's also known for his involvement in promoting the sport through clinics, workshops and demonstrations. You can find him on Instagram at Danny Ching 404. So, danny, welcome to the show. This will be a fun show, certainly laid back. I'm sure the paddling lifestyle is sort of by definition laid back.

Speaker 1: 2:18

So, as I mentioned earlier, tony and I do a lot of research in exercise and sports science. Victoria got her PhD. Actually I was one of her research in exercise and sports science. Victoria got her PhD. Actually I was one of her mentors in exercise and sports science. So I want to focus a little bit first on training, because I think we can all relate to that. My first question to you. Let me preface it first by at the university, when I talk to collegiate swimmers, I'm always astounded at how much volume swimmers do. They're literally in the water anywhere from 20, maybe as high as 27 hours a week. Now runners can't do that because running beats the hell out of your body and people say, well, why can paddlers do that? Because they're not really beating the hell out of their body the way a runner does. So wanted you know your old class.

Speaker 2: 3:05

I wanted your thoughts on that uh, yeah, like you said, the swimming I actually did collegiate swimming as well, and the amount of hours you have to put in the water is pretty insane. As far as the paddling goes, it's it's kind of halfway between swimming and running. You can put a lot of wear and tear on your body depending on what type of craft you're paddling, but you can also do it so comfortable and easy that if you wanted to go put down a workload like that, as long as you kept it in a rhythm, it would be fine. But, like, like you said, I've done stand-up paddling and you're standing up on a board. The boards aren't inherently as fast as some of the boats. We sit down and paddle. You're by yourself.

Speaker 2: 3:45

The lever's very long, so if you make mistakes or if you go hard, everything's magnified, and so what I found is the stand-up paddling is the most punishing version of paddling that I'll do.

Speaker 2: 3:56

Just because you're trying to accelerate something that's heavy, that doesn't want to glide, that you have to keep turning over, and every time you hit the water you get a little impact, not like running, not like weight lifting, not like fighting, but there's still a little bit of impact and it is a repetitive impact to a lot of joints, a lot of body parts. So when I'm doing the stand-up paddling is I actually have to scale way back on what I would consider high mileage. So I grew up paddling outrigger canoes, which are the hawai canoes with the little avas on the side little outriggers. They're a lot smoother. You're sitting down, you have a little better leverage point. It's just a lot more forgiving on the body. So when I do kind of my outrigger mileage I'll keep it in the 10-ish hours a week and if I put it into stand up I kind of have to scale back and really focus on when to put in rest because if you break a body part it takes a long time to come back from that.

Speaker 1: 4:51

When you say outrigger you're talking about OC1?

Speaker 2: 4:54

Yes, oc1, and even the OC6 canoes. So 10 hours 10 hours a week and if you look at it like a swimmer I mean, my personal experience is, if you are swimming butterfly every day you're going to do less miles than if you're swimming freestyle.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Something similar to that is just the amount of load you're putting on your body standing up versus a single person craft. That's really, really light. And then sometimes we'll jump into the team boats. I know Victoria just got a six-man boat and starting a team and it could be much, much easier because the team's right in line and everyone's in sync. Or it could be a lot harder because they're not in sync and now you've got all the way to the boat and all the way to be friends.

Speaker 1: 5:35

And you know it's funny.

Speaker 3: 5:36

Victoria and Danny, you know that happens If you're in an OC and you're in seat one or two a lot of times you know it's like is anyone paddling behind me and then you feel it, you're like, oh, there, we go Really.

Speaker 1: 5:55

Then all of a sudden it goes. So if you're, let's say, how about this? If you're training for a standup race, danny, is a lot of that still OC training, just to take some of the wear and tear off your body? Or are you focusing in terms of hours per week on standup?

Speaker 2: 6:08

So for me personally, I do multiple seasons at the same time so I always have OC involved. But just like you said, if I get into a section of the season where it's mostly standup, the standup stuff I use as more fine tuning my skills. I've done enough years of paddling to where I don't need to go put 20 hours a week in that motion. But if I do too many hours on a stand up I can hurt myself If I don't do enough. I don't get that feeling. That rhythm that that craft is needs to kind of go fast. And the skills you got to practice, like going in and out through waves, making a turn, If you don't go through those motions and you only paddle something else when you switch over, it's a lot more difficult, even if you've done it before.

Speaker 1: 6:50

So is there a minimum number of hours on standup you would do.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Yeah. So in preparation for a big race, minimum number of hours I would put on the standup would be about four, and of that maybe two of them would be hard. Just because putting out a hard hour workout is, it's a big ask, I equate that more to like a crossfit workout. We're going to need a little more warm-up, a little more time to recover. Afterwards maybe a day rest. But a lot of times I'm just putting down an hour hour and a half of easy paddling skills, just sort of cruising. But then again, if you're a racer, sometimes you get sucked into. Today's an easy day and you're like as hard as you can with your friends.

Speaker 3: 7:29

You know I've done a lot too, like when, even when you're going out for an easy paddle, like I did today, I caught myself. I was easy paddle technique, caught myself a few times like, and then all of a sudden I was going like way too hard, you know, and I'm like just slow down for a second, hold on. So yeah, you got to watch it.

Speaker 4: 7:48

Can I just ask for those of us who don't know the sport Well, danny Vic, when you I'm assuming just bioenergetically wear and tear, the standup is more demanding. But is? Is there a specificity, like in region, that takes the greatest amount of punishment? Is this hardest on shoulder, is it hardest on lower back? Or, I mean, is it just global wear and tear that makes it so challenging?

Speaker 2: 8:20

past it. Um, if you're using a longer liver, every time that paddle touches your hands, touches your elbows, touches your shoulders, those are all turns and joints it's got to go through. So if you're not lined up correctly and you have a really long lever attached to something that doesn't want to move very fast, it's very easy to tweak an elbow right we can a shoulder.

Speaker 2: 8:40

And then the worst part is when you blow out a knee because you look backwards at your friend and all of a sudden the board moved out of your way and you're running off the back so I just call it it's when it's more fun, it's the most fun. When it's more painful, it's the most painful. That's, that's the more version of paddling okay, yeah, this, this is.

Speaker 1: 8:57

This might be more of an esoteric question, but do you, do you use different length paddles for stand-up depending on? I mean, an inch on a paddle makes a huge difference, and this is me not knowing anything about the sport. When I first started, I had a 76 and a 77 inch paddle and I found whenever I had shoulder issues, I would just use the shorter paddle that's one inch shorter. Whenever I had back issues, I would just use the longer paddle and for whatever reason, it works because it changes the lever arm. Now I don't know if anyone else does it, but that's what I've done. So I don't know if I'm just crazy. I'm like, hey, you know, my back hurts, I'm going to use the longer paddle. I mean, what the hell's going on? So what do you think, danny?

Speaker 2: 9:40

Well, you, you nailed it.

Speaker 2: 9:41

A lot of what we learn in stand-up is we're drawing from other sports, we're drawing from other things we've done in the past and we're trying to apply it to what we know now.

Speaker 2: 9:48

But, like you said, if you change the length of the lever, for most of us we tend to reach out and put the paddle down in the same spot, no matter what anybody tells us. And if that paddle is longer, it's going to stop sooner and you're going to be taller, so you're saving your back. If that paddle is shorter, you're going to fall down sooner and you're going to be shorter. And if your top hand is in a very exposed position and you decide you wanted to go hard, the shoulder doesn't always hold, and so making those tiny little adjustments is kind of important. And what we found is it's kind of that cadence and that speed you want to travel. There's a. You know, essentially, you have your tall paddle fifth gear and then you have your short paddle for second gear, and I've actually started racing in the last few years with a paddle that will adjust four to six inches.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Wow Wait.

Speaker 1: 10:35

Especially when the race is like two hours. How?

Speaker 2: 10:38

long was your paddle? So I'll start. I have a paddle that goes from a 68 to almost a 74. How tall are you?

Speaker 1: 10:46

I am 5'9" Wow, so that's much shorter than I've used. I guess Victoria is always saying, hey, maybe you should bend your torso more, or something.

Speaker 3: 10:57

Maybe your paddle is too long.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Maybe your paddle is too long.

Speaker 3: 11:01

You need another hippo stick.

Speaker 2: 11:03

Yeah, the paddles are in theory, they're faster when they're longer. The problem is, if your body starts ripping apart while you're trying to do it, then you're not faster anymore. So there's that constant tradeoff and with the way we participate in races now, sometimes there's waves, sometimes you're going upwind, and then with the longer races people will just kind of pull into your draft, which is not breaking the wind or the water. They actually are surfing the wake that you're putting off. So they're working, sometimes as little as half the effort. And so in order to get rid of somebody, even though I can be faster than with a longer paddle, I'm never going to change speed where they're going to fall off. They're just going to keep surfing, and at the very end they have a tiny little paddle and they're going to spin right by you. So I make the adjustment on the paddle now and I just bring a real adjustable.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yeah, so I take our dragon with the T-top that doesn't twist, so I can just pop it and throw it up and then pop it and throw it down.

Speaker 3: 11:57

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 11:59

And so it takes one second and if I'm cruising along I can make the paddle nice and long, I can rest my back, I can sit up and no one's going anywhere. And if anyone decides they want to try and like oh yeah, I got a short paddle, watch me go, I have time to shorten it and chase them down that's awesome, I like that and it's great for all condition races, like you know ocean, flat water kind of style.

Speaker 2: 12:19

So yeah, and you'll show up to a race and you think it's going to be flat. You'll look outside and it's huge. You're like well, I don't think I brought the right equipment yeah that's all of these every time.

Speaker 3: 12:33

Just assume it's the opposite yeah, exactly, just buy a van and bring it all yeah, really.

Speaker 1: 12:39

Um, how much do you think the, uh, the weight of a board matters in terms of speed? Because it seems like people are trying they're just trying to narrow the board, which basically takes material off it, but then the rails have to be higher, but ultimately it seems like making a board lighter seems to be what board manufacturers are trying to do, so that you're faster. What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 13:06

board manufacturers are trying to do so that you're faster.

Speaker 2: 13:08

What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 13:08

So, for the majority of what stand-up has been, they just take like a surfboard design and then they have some rocker on it and they have a roundish or a slight concave bottom and then, like you said, they made the board narrower and then it would sink and it would actually get slower and water would go inside.

Speaker 2: 13:20

So they'd raise the gunnels like raise, the rails would be taller. So every time they go narrower, they got to go a little bit higher and higher, and higher, and so we used to ride six inch thick boards maybe. Oh, they were super wide at like 28, 30 inches wide, and now that they're in that 1920 range, some of the boards are as thick as 12 inches. And so with the foam and the capacity, they've come up with this volume measurement, like what is the volume you need for whatever weight you are, and what we're finding is that it's kind of like saying, hey, you're a person I don't know if you're a man or woman or how tall you are, but how much do you weigh? And I'll make an assumption on whether or not you're right for me.

Speaker 2: 14:00

And so the volume measurement if it's underwater makes a lot of sense because that's how quickly you're going to come back up. But if it's above water then it's really just added weight and it just kind of we kind of explain in terms of, like, you need the board to be taller if it's going to be rough because you don't want water coming over the top, that actually slows you down. And if it's not coming over the top and you're carrying 10 inches of board, then it's extra weight and, like you said, we're trying to shed some weight out of the board because a lighter board is going to initially pick up speed quicker. Problem with that is, once you're up to speed, a lighter board is also going to slow down quicker yeah so.

Speaker 2: 14:40

So some of our older boards. I'm sure victoria has a few boards where it's like, hey, this is old, this is waterlogged, this is a, you know, not very good board, but it's still fast yeah, when you get it going yeah, the hardest part is getting it into your car yeah, exactly, yeah I got a couple of boards like that a little extra weight, a little extra carry and as long as you can get the board running.

Speaker 2: 15:02

I call them downwind boards because the ocean is moving with you, the waves are moving with you, so the weight is not as big of a deal, um, but if I was going up one minute, so let me ask you this um, some of these boards, uh, they have, and I've always pondered this.

Speaker 1: 15:20

I'm not a biomechanist, but I've thought about the surface area that's actually touching the water. So let's say, I have a 24 inch board, but there's a channel down the middle and I think the rs boards have that. What they've basically done is increase the surface area, which would increase. I would think, tony, what do you think it would increase the drag? Because there increase the surface area, which would increase. I would think, tony, what do you think it would increase the drag? Because there's more surface area. So, even though they've narrowed the board, there's that tunnel. I don't know if it's a tunnel, it's that groove in the middle, and I see this with a lot of boards. It's like, hey, you've narrowed it, but there's still all this surface area that you're creating. I don't know if that makes sense. Tony, you're probably thinking you have no idea what the hell I'm trying to describe.

Speaker 4: 16:01

No, I'm just thinking in terms of a single-hull-versus-catamaran boat, but I don't think that analogy would apply very well, you're spot on Single-hull-versus-catamaran.

Speaker 2: 16:17

And they actually have a rule that you cannot make a catamaran because it's cheating, because it'd be inherently more stable and less drag okay, but the rule is no catamarans. You can have concaves and stuff like that, and so, like I've started designing the boards in the last recent years and one of the big things we found is by adding that concave, depending on where you add, it either creates more stability for the rider during the stroke or in between strokes, and the other one is when the boards are round and you take a stroke, they all inherently want to lift up the nose and then that nice round, efficient surface that you're supposed to cut through the water is actually pushing during the part of the stroke where everyone's doing their power.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And so when I look at the boards I'm always trying to fight between I need less resistance during the power so that when we're taking our stroke we don't get beat up as bad, and then I need it to actually sit down and carry some of that glide. And realistically, after coming off of canoes and even the Olympic kayak scene and the dragon boats and the OC1s and OC6s, the boats and the boards do not glide very far and so we're not really winning. These marginal percentages of. My board has less or more glide than yours because there's not a lot of time between strokes and if you're taking a lot of time between strokes you're getting beat by anybody that's taking another stroke. Whether or not it's a good one doesn't even matter. You're just constantly adding propulsion. Then you're beating anyone who's taking a break and going.

Speaker 2: 17:38

My board glides, my board glides. So the design feature is that singular propulsion. I don't want it to hurt too bad, but then I need the board to reset before I can get to that next stroke. So it wants to go, and nine times out of 10, if you're making a very narrow board, if I can make it more stable, you're going to be much happier and you're going to think it's faster.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Interesting, Interesting. I have actually.

Speaker 3: 18:04

I think is it is propelled into what you're doing. You know, if you think it's faster, sometimes you actually just go faster.

Speaker 4: 18:12

Cause you're not thinking about it not being unstable.

Speaker 1: 18:14

You know, what I mean.

Speaker 1: 18:17

I'm worried about swimming in manatees. Yeah, the idea of, because you bring the idea of stroke rate or cadence. I actually found a study on this. I didn't know this existed. Victoria, you'll be interested. This was published actually in 2020. And, danny, I want your thoughts on it because they tested they said they tested 10 male paddlers who are highly trained. They were international sub competitors, so I don't know who they are. Maybe you were in this study and I'll just read you the conclusion International male sub paddlers were most efficient and economical when paddling at 45 versus 55 or 65 strokes per minute. So 45, which is slower, which seems counter to what you just said. And this was confirmed by lower rpe or rating of preserved rating of preserved exertion values, which which may likely translate to faster paddling speed and greater endurance. Now, I would imagine this is quite individual. Tony doesn't look convinced.

Speaker 4: 19:17

It doesn't seem right, but go on. I'm not the expert here.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Yeah, the 45 versus 55, like I don't even think I could keep a 65 stroke per minute cadence if I wanted to. So when you hold your clinics, I'm sure people ask this. They're like, well, how many strokes per minute should I do? What's the answer?

Speaker 2: 19:40

how many strokes per minute should I do? What's the answer? Oh, it doesn't matter, because when I give a number for that, we're not measuring it and it's constantly changing with the water. So that's like saying you know, in running we can say it's perfectly flat. There's a time distance. As a human, we are physically capable of doing this. So now I need you to be at this cadence and I need you to describe this far in the water. That that's. That's ideal. But you cannot. You cannot paddle that way, you cannot swim that way, you cannot catch a wave that way.

Speaker 2: 20:07

And so the idea is at a lower cadence, your perceived effort is much easier because you are going slower and slow is easy, much easier because you are going slower and slow is easy. If you try and take that same stroke and that same cadence and do it faster, it becomes exponentially harder. And the way I always explain this to my clinics is there is a way to walk and there are speeds you should walk at and if you go outside those speeds, above or below, it doesn't make sense and it becomes very inefficient way to travel. When you hit a certain speed and if you want me to give you a number, I could make one up for you but we all know there's a point when you're walking faster and faster and faster and you should start jogging because it's more efficient. And then we're going even faster and there's a point where you're running and you should not be jogging and you should not be walking, you should be running.

Speaker 2: 20:56

And what happens is you change those, that style of paddling and how you do your technique to move, based off of the cadence. Because if you take a long, slow, 45 stroke cadence and you just try and do everything the same faster, you are not a machine. The body just can't hold on. It can't keep up with itself, so you start hurting your shoulders. Your paddle's too long or too short now. Your back hurts, so you have to make adjustments. I'm sure, tony, you're a fighter. There's a big difference between a setup jab and a overhand right and an uppercut, and you can't really do them all the same, and there's a time and a place for it.

Speaker 4: 21:31

You don't know when, it just happens and to your and to your point that the environment's too dynamic to standardize the volume of punches, or you know, you got to move with that, like you said out there, danny.

Speaker 2: 21:41

So, yeah, so the environment and the weather conditions, the water conditions, are going to be a big determining factor on that stroke rate in many cases speed and momentum, or if you're just trying to hold on to what you got, or if you're even willing to, hey, I'm letting it come down, but as long as I can get a breath I can go up again later.

Speaker 2: 22:01

So we're constantly making those adjustments and if you've ever had to swim a long distance not for a race, not for anything, just like swimming in the ocean sometimes you're dying, sometimes you're catching a wave and sometimes you're cruising along and it is all one stroke to the next changes and you just kind of adjust to it. So the study if you're doing everything exactly the same, the same way, is right, but at 45 strokes a minute I am, I'm going slow. I'm not trying to accelerate at 45 strokes a minute. If I did, having to push and accelerate at 45 is just too heavy of a load. If I wanted to bring up the cadence, I would bring down the weight. And what we're finding is if you can somehow keep the movement in the board and bring up your cadence, even though your stroke doesn't go as far and isn't as powerful, if you can just keep taking it over, it's just like you know, turning down the resistance on your peloton and getting a little more output would that be?

Speaker 1: 22:57

would that be an argument for having a much smaller surface for your paddle?

Speaker 2: 23:01

because well, that's why the paddles are so small now. They used to be way bigger, yeah way bigger.

Speaker 3: 23:07

I found one of my old last week and I was like no wonder why we had such issues bad shoulders yeah 89-inch tall paddle.

Speaker 2: 23:17

There's an outrigger paddle slapped into old surf ski paddles. Yeah, were they wooden. Were they heavy wooden?

Speaker 1: 23:23

paddles.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Some were wood, some were definitely wood, but they were mostly carbon. But yeah, I've since adjusted how I teach because most people want to bend over and pull when they explain. But if you've ever bent over and put yourself in that position and then tried to pull something heavy, it's very counterintuitive. So when we talk about paddling, a lot of times we're done and we're trying to remember to that feeling we had when everything was going really well, we're going really fast and super awesome, and then all we can really remember is usually what we see with our eyes, which is reach more, pull harder at the front and I've actually totally flipped the explanation because you do do the work up front but imagine if you're running and someone told you to reach your foot further out and slam it down harder.

Speaker 1: 24:09

No, it's funny, Dan, if you're not running, it looks like that. I remember when my kids my kids are out of college now, but when they were in high school and they ran track, I remember a father yelling at her daughter, saying, just run faster. I'm like, obviously. I'm like, oh my god, she's gonna hate running. Now after dad just yells at her, just yeah if she could run.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Just look over what do you want? To go faster. My hands, my shoulders.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Um, I I do have a question. This, this is what I learned when I I used I dragon boated for a very short period, but when, when I did oc uh, there are big sticklers with this and even a little bit would stand up as when do you pull the paddle out of the water? I'm just curious what your answer is uh.

Speaker 2: 24:52

So basically you have to load your weight so that it supports you, then the board moves and then you have to unload it and that is a balanced feeling. So I always tell people focus on the top, the T-top and pushing into the top, not because I actually want them to push power, but because it's a very obvious cue and adults are really good at not wanting to fall on their face. So there's a load into it and if they go too far, they instantly know and they fix it on the next stroke. Or if they go to put the paddle down and it's in the wrong spot, they know and I don't have to explain any of the things. But my favorite is you know how much pressure do I put on my top hand? I was like, oh, no problem, 37 pounds, that help no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 25:51

And on an OC, do you take the paddle out when it comes to your hips? Usually end up past my hips. So one of the cues we've been using this year to try and get our team on the same page is we have like 80 guys on the water at once so I can say stuff and about three of them are listening. So we got to have a couple visual cues and it's not perfect, but it helps. Is I want them pushing into that top hand until the bottom hand touches their hip.

Speaker 1: 26:17

Tony, that's like so that gives them you talked to 30 of them and like one is listening.

Speaker 4: 26:23

Why 80,? I can't imagine. On the water too, you said.

Speaker 2: 26:29

Yeah, I just gotta. If you wanna hear, come closer. If you don't wanna hear, just stay over there.

Speaker 4: 26:34

Just watch the person in front of you. I think we're gonna go this way.

Speaker 2: 26:38

Go when someone says go, stop when they say stop.

Speaker 1: 26:42

I want to switch a little nutrition, unless Victoria or Tony had other questions about training. I mean, I could ask a million and one questions, but you know, interest of time, go do it.

Speaker 3: 26:52

Well, I you know and this isn't really a question, no-transcript. Do you feel like that's beneficial or have you done that modality before?

Speaker 2: 27:27

Definitely, definitely. If you have um, if you can work out your cardio or your strength, if you have a weakness or something that you want to buffer when you're actually doing a paddling style event, or either you get winded really easy or you're not strong enough um, you can add that into your training program. But then I always get the question, like you know, so should I do it like five times a week, six times a week?

Speaker 2: 27:50

if you want to be better at paddling, you need to paddle yeah and then you supplement in hey, once or twice a week, I can throw this in extra.

Speaker 2: 27:59

But if you only paddle like two or three times a week and then you're like but I go to the gym six times well, I hope it's winter in canada, because that's not enough to get it done yeah so, yeah, I always add it in as like, hey, that's, that's the extra, that's the cherry, but you got to get a base paddling volume in, and I mean, for most people who are super serious, there's a good six times on the water a week. We should be looking for um and spread that out. Obviously, rest is huge and then if you do beat yourself up, you can't be like, well, I'm gonna go rest in the gym right right doesn't help, rest is rest, yeah, so like um, during covid I did a bunch of training programs for people and that was the big thing.

Speaker 2: 28:41

I said hey, let's talk. And you know, you can't tell me I have every day I can paddle off, but that's because I work every night right like we gotta work something in there. I'll just, you know, just stay up all day and all night.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Oh, God Well it's a good thing, victoria. You got the OC, so that helps.

Speaker 3: 29:01

That wasn't a question for me. We always talk about it a lot because in Florida lately there's been a ton of unbearable wind. And it comes to the point where it's like you know, am I paddling to like get a workout, or am I just going on my board to get hours in on my board and I'm not actually able to paddle because I'm just like there's sidewind everywhere, you can't even hide from it. So you know, bringing in extra stuff, or somehow the canoe is way better in the wind, Way better.

Speaker 2: 29:30

You can hide a little bit from the wind.

Speaker 4: 29:32

Yeah, so I'll tell you.

Speaker 2: 29:35

The big thing to watch out for is when you, if you're trying to be better at paddling, if you're trying to train to get better for like an event or something, make sure when you're paddling you are training something you are not exercising while paddling, like you said that's a very big difference of I did my one hour at the correct intensity, not paying attention to how you paddle right the feeling of the water, any of the skills? Yeah, it's like ah, I got on the row machine for an hour.

Speaker 3: 30:01

It's like, yeah, that's exercise, you're not training to row yeah, yeah, that's true, because paddling is such an like an efficient, like an efficiency type of sport, like the more efficient you are, in this case, you know, the faster you're gonna go like forever.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Well, something like running, you know, but yeah everyone gets focused on how do I train the body to be at peak performance at this exact heart rate that I was told is good? Yeah, and I go. Yeah, but can you go fast? Is it easy? Is this something you could do? You know, you got to learn the motion, you got to learn the water, you got to learn the equipment.

Speaker 4: 30:33

So I always talk about you know.

Speaker 2: 30:35

They say hey, big volumes at like 70 or like base work for me, because I don't like staring at my watch the whole time. It messes me up to see if my heart rates right, to see if the speeds are right, as I'll put that on my wrist, so I have to like when I have a good feeling I can check it and just see if I'm kind of in the area and then keep going.

Speaker 2: 30:54

And then the other one is like, when we're doing those, because most people don't know what that feeling is, they go. Hey, it's that easy flowing speed. It's not the number you want. Sometimes it's way higher because you're going in the wind and it's great. Sometimes it's way lower, just as long as the board or the craft is releasing every stroke. Go as hard as possible while having that feeling, which is usually about 70 yeah, that if that feeling goes away, you ain't going, you're not paddling for very much longer no, yeah, yeah, no.

Speaker 4: 31:26

No way to fight it in that sport, with the water moving, that's for sure you had a question, I think just quick, because I know you wanted to get any nutrition and I was wondering for the layman like us who don't know the sport well, like, like, if you had a dry land recommendation, would it be Concept2? Would it be a NordicTrack, like if there was a good translation or carryover to dry land cardio as a supplement? Is any one type in your eyes probably superior? And that's what I was going to just ask quickly.

Speaker 2: 31:55

You know I really like the cross-country urge for that. That's really good. The rowing urge is pretty good too, but a lot of those cable motions are, like I call them, fingertips to toes, where you have to start, where you load into your arms and then you go out of the body and push all the way through so if you can practice any of those motions where you're loading and you're not killing yourself, not like a pull-up, but more like a pull-up with bands where you get a little bit of assistance and you're just working that push through actually total behind me.

Speaker 2: 32:23

Oh yeah, we'll use the cable on that okay, and you know the wood chops up and down and then anytime you're going to do stuff like that, I always say if you're going to do one you want to do like the opposite motion, just to counter yourself so you're not breaking yourself the same direction very cool, danny.

Speaker 1: 32:38

What's the uh oldest someone has come to you and said they want to learn how to paddle. Oldest person 76 wow, bless them that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 32:48

That's the reason I bring that up is, um, there was actually a study comparing paddling to walking in older individuals and it basically, which makes sense, and they found that paddling produces much better balance control than walking, which well, of course it's paddling is a lot harder, but it's. It's interesting that you know we live in south florida, you know all of us except you, but, um, it's, you could literally train outdoors, yet it's not. It's not like a an exercise of choice for a lot of people, for whatever reason, even though it's super safe. I mean, you could go on the intercoastal. It's always flat there, even if it's windy, it's always flat, but you don't see as many people as you would think, and I don't know if it's like that in California uh, it's hit and miss um.

Speaker 2: 33:34

Whenever it's sunny and beautiful, it's packed, and then, like this last weekend, it was cold and rainy and it was dead. So for us it's it's more weather dependent. It's always it's, it's always been weather dependent. And then in the summer it gets really crowded. A lot of people take out their boards and it's kind of something new for where I live in redondo, we have this tiny little harbor, sorry that's your daughter, hey so our harbor is like a half mile long and we'll put you know 11 oc6s out and so we're going around in circles.

Speaker 2: 34:08

People see that stand up, boards start popping out, kayaks start popping out, and then it gets cold and rainy and it's just us hey, let's, uh, let's talk nutrition.

Speaker 1: 34:20

Um, like uh, victoria, when you, when you were doing the crossing from cuba to key west obviously in addition to the skill which you already had, I mean, you have the skill to paddle open water, ocean nutrition really was the key and the idea was, if you could keep your central nervous system awake, you can do it. I mean, you can, your brain can basically convince yourself to do something you know.

Speaker 4: 34:43

Basically if your life depended on it? Which?

Speaker 1: 34:45

your life kind of depended on right, so. So I don't know, Danny, if there are nutritional or supplemental things that you do personally, or advice you give to people you coach. Um, I'm curious to hear what. What you have done yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:01

So most of the races I do are usually around an hour long, but some of the bigger ones, um, when we do stand up, like the carolina cup is like two, two and a half hours, and that starts pushing into the realm of you've got to prepare your body, you know, ideally leading into it for a week where you're getting hydrated, you're eating right, you're sleeping right, but then when you get to the race, you've got to have some basic nutritions. For me it's you got to have carbs at some point, some, some way, however, you can get them down, something to keep you rolling. And then I just call it whatever it takes to not cramp. So that's your, whatever your version of the gatorade powder is. I use um.

Speaker 2: 35:40

We started using liquid iv. It tastes fine, it works. We used to use efs and a long time ago before that we were like cytomax. There's all sorts of different hammer gel, nutrition, perpetuum, um. But the two things we've kind of come to the conclusion is, in these longer races I'm trying to solve problems before we get there, and then problems are inevitably going to happen. And so what is my bandaid for that? So if I start cramping, I have my version of a salt tablet, which is the hammer gel and Duralites, and for me I have to do the extremes because my body processes stuff really fast. Do the extremes because my body processes stuff really fast.

Speaker 1: 36:21

So if I start cramping at all.

Speaker 2: 36:22

I just hey, bring me bring me a handful and I'll try and show. No, not a whole bottle, but I need a handful because they're just throwing them at me and I'm just trying to get two in my mouth. Like you know, you're trying to paddle, you're doing all these things they're like you're kills.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Try and choke these down, okay, but again that's the band-aid of like what happened. Like I didn't drink enough, it got too hot, I went too hard, too early. This is going to stop your cramp and this is going to buy you 15 to 30 minutes of no cramping and I go. Okay, there's an hour left. You're gonna have to do this a couple more times yeah, and then the other one is these amino acid pills. They're just mass.

Speaker 3: 36:58

What is it?

Speaker 2: 36:59

Map, map, master acid pattern or something.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:04

A buddy of mine gave them to me when I was training really hard in the gym. He goes these are really good for, like you know, recovery or pre-workout, and he was a cyclist. All right, let me take a look. And I ended up grabbing them on accident during a race because it's a little white pill bottle next to my little white pill bottle of Enduro Lights, and what I found with that is it keeps me cognitively really really clear, so I can see things happening two hours into a race.

Speaker 2: 37:29

I can make good decisions, and a lot of times, if I'm starting to tire, the mental fatigue and the decision making will go long before I physically crash, and so these are really great, for I just take two of those and then advise me like another 40 minutes of mentally. I'm as fresh as the beginning of the race, so I can see patterns, I can see other racers, I can see course decisions, and so I've been doing that for about four or five years now. Course decisions and so I've been doing that for about four or five years now and that's been this massive game changer in the second half of races, where I'm used to being a front runner leading out, and now I'm very happy to sit in fifth or tenth and just watch people make terrible choices.

Speaker 2: 38:06

You're like oh wow, I used to do that. That's a terrible idea. Don't go south. Yeah, it's too. Ah, that's good. Okay, I'm just gonna keep going this way, we'll be fine, and so, uh, it's basically like an amino acid and I've gotten into the pill and I've gotten into the powder form and I'll just kind of put that in my water and stuff like that. That's. That's been like a really helpful long distance thing for me to just. It even helps me remember that hey, you should probably eat. Like, sometimes we get late in a race, we just forget that we have food and we're getting hungry yeah, well, obviously the advantage in in road races is they have aid stations.

Speaker 1: 38:40

They don't have aid stations. You?

Speaker 2: 38:43

just pack it all in like a camel. You get pockets everywhere. Yeah, yeah, and that's what they do right, it's hard to like.

Speaker 3: 38:50

Well, danny doesn't have that problem too much, but for a lot of people are. They're just hanging on by like the tooth of the train that they're in and literally I've lost a draft train by going like this.

Speaker 2: 39:09

So you fell behind the sweet wave.

Speaker 3: 39:11

Yeah, I'm like oh gosh, I mean so I think. But I do think that, paddling from what I've seen when people bonk and stuff in the bigger races with the bigger names nutrition is so underplayed and I know we've talked about it a lot it's just like I feel like there's so much more potential in this sport, with how people are putting nutrients and hydration in their body, that we don't realize yet because nobody's really doing it, because it's kind of more of an inconvenience than when you're on a bike or you're running and somebody hands you a cup, so just being able to find the different things free before you feel like you're bonking um to be able to get it in. I saw this uh, and this guy was wearing a hydration patch this weekend. I've never actually uh, done any research on that, but he said it helps him a lot. I gotta look into it because that would be kind of cool for for paddling. I don't know. First time I saw it it's got it.

Speaker 2: 40:01

I saw something like that.

Speaker 3: 40:02

I don't know yeah, like, how does that work?

Speaker 1: 40:05

yeah, how does that work? How does it get through your?

Speaker 3: 40:07

skin. I didn't even look it up yet. I have no clue.

Speaker 1: 40:10

That's really bizarre, um, do you? Uh and we've all talked about this, myself with victoria and tony um, because paddling, it's an endurance sport, unlike running, where your body weight is at least supported I mean, it's supported in a boat or supported on a board. Um, the use of creatine monohydrate or beta alanine? Um, is that something that you've used in the past to help with your paddling?

Speaker 2: 40:38

No, um, my wife's super into nutrition and kind of dials everything in for me, so I don't really do any supplements or anything. Um, long, long time ago I heard a couple of things that were really interesting. I was swimming and doing a bunch of kayaking and it was, you know, your body. If you're paying attention, your body will crave things that it needs, and so that's always been something kind of paid attention to. Like you know, sometimes you're like man, I just really need a steak right now. I have no idea why just go with that. And then the other one is uh, practice what you're going to eat before big events. So I kind of have a steady diet routine. My wife loves the whole nutrition thing, so since we started dating, you know like 15 years ago, I've been on this really nice diet of she cooks at home, everything's clean everything's very high, high nutrients, and then I'll, when she goes to work, I'll go slip in the cheeseburger just to make sure I can still process

Speaker 2: 41:36

so you know, this is the thing your body's gonna, your body's gonna want what it needs. And so I I can kind of feel it in a normal training week of like, hey, I'm getting run down, I'm craving certain foods, okay, just kind of move that direction. And then the other one is you know, you don't want to be so clean that you can't process something that you're not used to eating, and so when we travel and stuff, you get some weird foods and you start trying to find those places.

Speaker 2: 42:01

Remember like oh wow, subway. If you can find a Subway wherever you're at, you're going to have something you've had before.

Speaker 3: 42:08

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1: 42:10

Are you, dan? Are you familiar with the concept of periodization? Yes, is that something you? Let me backtrack a little. Um, my wife is a competitive cyclist and she wins most of her races. In fact she almost wins every race. So she's, she's high level, she's a master's athlete and, um, she doesn't periodize. All her training is, I would almost say she. Every training session is hard. For some reason she recovers. I'd say more than half her training is high intensity interval training and I'm starting to think and I want your comment on this that in the endurance sports, periodization is overblown, the benefits of it are overblown and exaggerated, only because I've watched so many endurance athletes who don't do it. They basically just train hard. I mean, they'll do long, easy days, but they train hard a lot and they just recover. And I think that's the difference. There's some people who just recover. I'm not one of them. I'm sure, tony, you've worked with athletes. It's like holy shit. He just recovers and recover quick, yeah, so what are your thoughts on periodization?

Speaker 3: 43:21

Carla eats a lot of protein too, though.

Speaker 1: 43:22

She eats three grams per kilo, like that might be, why Wait?

Speaker 4: 43:28

Carla eats three grams per kilo.

Speaker 1: 43:30

Three grams per kilo.

Speaker 3: 43:31

Danny, how much protein do you eat a day?

Speaker 2: 43:33

Wow, I have no idea. I do know I'll eat like a 600-calorie burrito as a snack if I'm hungry in between meals. That works. My wife grabs like a little piece of cheese and like water and I'm just like let's just heat up this Trader Joe's burrito and that'll hold me over for an hour, until dinner.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Yeah those burrito and that'll hold me over for an hour until dinner, yeah. But as far as the periodization and stuff is that, I got two thoughts on that. One is one I think you're right for some of the if you've done the work before, then you don't do that. You don't really need or get this big benefit out of periodization of starting with a with a moderate volume and then slowly increasing it over a couple weeks and then taking a break because you've done that before you've gotten the volume. I think that's really important for anyone who's new to a sport is to build themselves into what we would consider a normal training week of harves and intervals, lots, of, lots of distance of paddling. But in in what we do with paddling I found people we talked about earlier sometimes they exercise paddle. They don't actually train paddling, they just exercise the proper amount and they're not learning to get any better. They're not learning to feel the water, they're not learning to move the boards or the canoes or whatever it is, they're just you know, hey, look, I did. I did the proper uh heart rate for the proper amount of time. And then the other one is as athletes get older, I don't think there's this big peak spike anymore, like you can't rest, recover and then get these big ups and downs. What I found is, with just the massive increase of things that are on my plate, as sort of being a dad owning a business, having to train, is you're not going to get these.

Speaker 2: 45:20

I was 19 and I could do nothing for a week and then slowly build and get this big spike of performance. Is I always joke. We call old man strength and it's somewhere you know between like well, when you get old, you get strong, and I go no. Like the joke is when you see me they're like you never get tired, I go. Here's the trick. When joke is when you see me they're like you never get tired, I go. Here's the trick when you're old, you wake up the most tired you could possibly be. So it's all uphill from here.

Speaker 3: 45:43

You're just always tired.

Speaker 2: 45:45

Just always tired. So you learn how to handle that. But I think, like you said is with periodization and increasing those workloads is if you've done it for a number of years or for a long time or your body's used to that, then you just kind of sort of do the right work at the right time before the events. And so I actually experienced that last year and had this amazing year, uh, in the outrigger season, where I was doing the same thing every week, because that was only that was literally the only thing I had time for. I had a race every saturday. I would try and paddle on sund Sunday if I wasn't too tired. Monday afternoon, tuesday morning, take Wednesday off twice on Thursday. I'm out Every single week for five months and it was one of the better years I've ever had.

Speaker 4: 46:29

So technically there really is no time for a sustained periodization model because of the training frequency I mean the competition frequency is so high yeah, and a lot of people will want to do that and they'll go.

Speaker 2: 46:40

Well, I'll train through these races, then I'll peak on this one day, way down the line, three, four months from now, and I go yeah, I'm going to race about 40 something times this year on seven versions of paddling. So we're gonna go ahead and just try and do the same thing over and over again. And I was stoked. I didn't have a race this weekend, but a couple weeks ago the long one, and then in march I had a bunch of weekends that were raced on saturday and a different race on sunday. So you're kind of just doing the workload and then for me it's just listening to the body recovering properly and if you can recover, then you can go do work again.

Speaker 2: 47:19

But a lot of people just not recover.

Speaker 3: 47:20

Especially at your level. Like Tony Danny wins like a lot. So at his level, like at 40 races there's probably like 30 of them that are like want to win for sure, for sure. You know what I mean. Like A races like there's probably like a five. Whereas some people they have like one race they could focus on a year where they might be able to periodize more.

Speaker 4: 47:42

Okay, yeah you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 47:44

There's no room for that, because really it's like race recover, race recover exactly yeah, the racing itself is part of the training protocol.

Speaker 4: 47:53

I mean because you're pushing so high and and so with the proper recovery you'd get the benefit from that racing intensity if you recover suitably, yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:03

Absolutely, and over here in California we have eight local races where the morning is like a four to six mile short course, so I'll race, stand up in that, and then about 45 minutes later is a 10 to 12 mile OC1 course. I'll turn around and jump into that and so that's my race day. Eight times is double races.

Speaker 1: 48:23

well, that's uh just you doing that.

Speaker 2: 48:28

There are people who can't recover from that, so you oh no, it hurts, it hurts a lot and the last couple years have been a little different because, like people are showing up now, normally it's like that's my local race, it's just me and my boys and we all double race. And then suddenly like a guy from Tahiti flies in and he's only doing the afternoon and he's like I'm the defending world champion, but he was the last one.

Speaker 4: 48:51

I'm like.

Speaker 2: 48:51

Jesus, this is not going to end well. Nobody told me how to peak in january.

Speaker 1: 48:58

That's insane. Um, we're. We're a little bit. Uh, we don't have much time left. Victoria, I don't know if you have any other questions for danny. Um, tony, I know this is a weird sport for you. You live in south florida. You need to get on the board eventually I will.

Speaker 4: 49:13

No, just I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get on the board with, with um. Both of you Just know this. If I do drop in the ocean, it'd take me about 11 seconds to hit the bottom of Marianas Trench. Oh God, and that's only 36,000 feet. I know Danny knows how deep that is.

Speaker 1: 49:30

Actually, you know, Victoria, I think Tony would be good on the OC.

Speaker 3: 49:33

That's what I just said. Yeah, we'll put him on the boat. We don't have to worry about him.

Speaker 1: 49:37

He could pull. I'm not sure how long he could pull, but he could pull.

Speaker 4: 49:44

I think you'd be surprised.

Speaker 1: 49:45

For a white fiber guy, my endurance is pretty good. Nice, hey, danny, before I let you go, I wanted to ask you, do you?

Speaker 2: 49:54

still hold the record for the 200 meter sprint. I don't know. I was told it was broken in 20, 2022 maybe, but it was, I don't know, our. We did one on a laser course in germany in 2014 um flat water lake, and then it was broken on. Uh, two buoys set up going downwind in china oh, that doesn't, yeah, but different I was like man, that's awesome, this guy's so fast, he's wait. All eight people in the file broke the record.

Speaker 3: 50:25

Okay, nothing to do with the wind, and that's why, you know, we always are trying to figure out how to study sup, because it we wish it could be studying. We have all the tools right, joey. I mean we even have the vo2 max boop. You can't, because of just the conditions. It's never controlled, so it just sucks.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Right. And also, obviously, the skill component is so important that someone like you could win a short sprint 200 meters but also win a longer race, which you don't see that in track and field.

Speaker 4: 50:53

That's right.

Speaker 1: 50:57

You've seen it once in in speed skating. That was eric hayden in 1976 or 1980, I forget which games. So you don't see it anywhere except stand-up paddling and and it's really odd that someone who wins a sprint would win a distance event. And there's it's got to be a lot of it is just skill, right, danny?

Speaker 2: 51:13

a lot of it is skill. I mean, if you look at some of the best swimmers, that is what I would equate stand up to on like a higher, more invested into the study, into the technique, because right now most of us are teaching ourselves how to paddle and there are very few of us that. For me, I grew up paddling, so when they're like, hey, can you stand up and paddle, I was like, of course we used to do that all the time for fun as little kids, and so we're kind of slowly evolving it. The sport is still pretty new and so we're growing that into it.

Speaker 2: 51:47

But in theory, you see, like Katie Ledecky will go and smash all the records in distance and then she shows up to 200 and she's still highly competitive. Right up to 200, and she's still highly competitive. Right, it's amazing, at a certain point there's a skill level. What I found in most paddling sports is there's there's a minimum skill level and then we can talk about whether or not your fitness, your strength and all these you know physical attributes you have are better than somebody else who has at least that skill. But right now there's so much, so much to be had in the skill and the feel for the water that you can make up for a lot of physical deficits just by being efficient is what they call it, or essentially, I just call it not drowning.

Speaker 1: 52:26

Well, that's Victoria, that's Rory, he's very skilled, even though he doesn't train.

Speaker 3: 52:30

Yeah, he's annoying he hasn't paddled in years and if he goes and paddles with me for like a mile, just a short mile, he'll still beat me. It's like the Hawaiians. They got that thing. You know, he puts his finger in the water, catches a fish. You know, same thing.

Speaker 1: 52:47

That's crazy. Well, Danny, we're out of time. It's been great having you as a guest, Learned a lot about training for paddling and I'm sure we have a million and one questions and hopefully you can make it to the, you know, to the East Coast, South Florida, you know, got a great paddling experience here.

Speaker 4: 53:04

And we don't have that ice water. You have over there, Danny, that you're paddling in all the time.

Speaker 1: 53:09

It's been a little chilly this winter, a little more than most Victoria have any final thoughts for Danny.

Speaker 3: 53:15

No, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 1: 53:17

Yeah, it was fun and interesting.

Speaker 3: 53:18

Come to Florida. We've got extra room here for you.

Speaker 2: 53:21

Amen, definitely definitely. Thanks for having me, you guys. This was awesome hey thanks. Danny Appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 53:26

Thanks, Danny.