Sports Science Dudes

Episode 49 Elite trainer Juan Carlos Santana dispels the overly simplistic maxim of "you can never be too strong."

• Jose Antonio PhD

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Juan Carlos Santana MS CSCS disrupts the overly simplistic mantra 'you can never be strong enough;' We delve into the confluence of strength, skill, and strategy across a spectrum of sports, from distance running to boxing, and explore the fine art of exercise selection for peak performance. Be ready to reframe your thinking and challenge your beliefs on strength training.

Timeline – Episode 49 with Juan Carlos Santana

3:42 How much strength is enough? You can never be strong enough. (See these YouTube videos by JC Santana, https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JC+Santana+strength+is+killing+you 

5:24 The minimum strength necessary to do the job. 

8:10 These little silver spoon baby little bitches start dying on me.

9:13 “Why do you want more vertical jump?” Do you “need” to increase your vertical jump? Depends on the sport.

12:34 Understand the culture – how much strength do distance runners need? What about fighters? Tennis players?

22:39 NFL Combines – are they a predictor of failure? 

23:42 Tennis – what’s the tennis player built like?  With limited time and resources, focus on what is most important for each athlete.

29:43 How many fights are lost based on what the strength and conditioning coach did with a particular fighter? Or put another way, your fighter loses despite being in the best damn shape!

33:00 Best data is how the fighter feels; so much of training for a sport is hard to measure

38:14 What is modern strength training?

47:10 Tyson Fury vs. Francis Ngannou – Francis has a puncher’s chance

48:35 That punch comes in a lot harder with those boxing gloves

50:00 The gym business – why does it fail so much?

Our special guest: Juan Carlos Santana MS

Santana has been referred to as “the country’s leading practitioner of functional fitness” and personally trained and developed specific programs for all professional sports, youth fitness, fitness for mature populations, and accelerated rehabilitation. His advanced understanding of bio-mechanics and conditioning has made him the go-to guy for those interested in reaching their optimal performance levels, from individuals to professional sports teams to Fortune 500 companies. His consulting clients and endorsements hail from the full spectrum of government agencies, educational institutions, college and professional sports teams, equipment manufacturers, and fitness facilities.

Santana is currently the Founder and Director of IHP, his state-of-the-art training facility in Boca Raton, Florida. IHP has been recognized by several awards as one of the top training facilities in the world and the country’s best “core-training” facility. Founded in 2000, IHP provides an unparalleled training environment for elite athletes, including World Class Tennis Champions, NFL and MLB players, World Champion Brazilian Jujitsu and Mixed Martial Arts Fighters, numerous NCAA Division I teams, and hundreds of nationally ranked teen hopefuls from a broad cross-section of sports disciplines. Within this exciting training environment, weekend warriors, soccer moms, and their children also call IHP their training facility. Santana has been part of the strength and conditioning program for several Florida Atlantic University Sports teams over the last ten years. 

 

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance. The Sports Science Dudes represent the opinions of the hosts and guests and are not the official opinions of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the Society for Sports Neuroscience, or Nova Southeastern University. The advice provided on this show should not be construed as medical advice and is purely an educational forum.

Hosted by Jose Antonio PhD

Dr.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the sport science dudes. I am your host, dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. You'll find us on YouTube, rumbles, spotify and Apple podcasts. Our special guest today is Juan Carlos Santana. Suffice it to say that he's got a super long bios, or I'm going to try to like squeeze squeeze it into a short amount of time here in space. Santana has been referred to as one of the country's leading practitioners of functional fitness and is personally trained and developed specific programs for all professional sports, youth fitness, fitness for mature populations and accelerated rehabilitation. His advanced understanding of biomechanics and conditioning has made him the go-to guy for those interested in reaching their optimal performance level levels from individuals to professional sports teams, fortune 500 companies. He's currently the founder and the director of IHP, a great state of the art training facility in Boca Raton, florida.

Speaker 2:

It is that I've been there many times.

Speaker 1:

It is nice. Yes, ihp has been recognized by several awards as one of the top training facilities in the world. Founded in 2000, ihp provides an unparalleled training environment for elite athletes, including world class tennis champions, nfl MLB players, world champion, brazilian jiu-jitsu, mixed martial arts fighters. I could go on and on and on. Jc has worked with so many people that it would never do justice just to read his bio. You really got to meet the guy. So welcome to the show, juan Carlos Santana. How the hell are you?

Speaker 3:

Thank you, thank you, thank you, both, buddies of mine colleagues, friends often visitors, frequent visitors to IHP. It's one of the great reasons I love having this place, Although having a gym is a pain in the ass. But it's my pain in the ass and I choose it.

Speaker 1:

Hey, if we have time later on, I want to. I want your opinion on why gyms are pain in the ass and people want to get in the gym business, but let's let's tackle a topic that I think is is important for people who want to work in strength conditioning, people who work with athletes, people who work with power lifters and Olympic weight lifters, which would be different than, let's say, performance athletes, because you know, tony, you have a lot of experience working with fighters JC worked with a lot of fighters and all sorts of different athletes the idea of how much strength is enough. But before we hear what you think, jc, we had a guest many weeks ago, aaron Wellman. He used to be the Giants New York Giants strength coach and he he's now Indiana University. But we had to talk actually about something called the muscle to bone ratio and the idea was this Most strength coaches, or maybe 99.9% of strength coaches, will say two things.

Speaker 1:

One, you can never be strong enough. Two, it's always good to add muscle mass. And, talking to Aaron Wellman, the idea that you can actually put too much muscle, for instance, on a wide receiver and football, a tennis player, etc. Etc. Doesn't necessarily confer a performance advantage, and that's why, when I saw your video about, well, at what point do you need to be? I mean, do you need to be any stronger? I mean my service, 140 miles an hour, 150 miles an hour we really need to squat, you know, instead of 300, 350. So talk a little bit about you. Know how you came up with this idea of looking at strength? Because I'll tell you this, and I don't work directly in the strength conditioning field, I mean, I I consult with very few athletes, almost all of them endurance, but almost every strength coach says you can never be strong enough. So what?

Speaker 3:

do you?

Speaker 1:

think of that.

Speaker 3:

First time I heard that and I mentioned that in our three part series. Strength training is killing people in YouTube. I'm sure you'll have the links to that in here. The first time I heard that was from Michael Stone, and Mike Stone is a legend. Meg Stone, another legend. Nothing but respect and kudos. I love giving giving a respect to those that came before us. Okay, and I'm sure that when Mike said that, it was rhetorical and not literal. So all you know, let's not hold Mike literally to what he said, but the concept reverberates.

Speaker 3:

So you can never be strong enough. No, you can actually be too strong to the point where it's not that. It's not that it'll hurt you, although it may and it probably does if you push beyond your genetic bandwidth. The thing is, when you, when you're looking at a business, you don't invest money in the part of the business that's not generating money. Okay, so if you have two bathrooms, male and female, you're going. You know what? If we add four more bathrooms, we'll be a better gym.

Speaker 3:

No, because you got enough bathrooms, you got enough wet area to handle your business and done so. How much wet area do you need? How much front desk do you need? How much offices do you need? You know what you need. You need the minimal amount of wet areas, the minimal amount of offices, the minimal amount of bar space, the minimal amount of front desk necessary to do the optimum job Period. So why can't we look at strengthening addition in the same way? How much strength is enough? The minimum strength necessary to do the job necessary? So okay, I want more vertical job. Why do you want more vertical job? So I need plyometrics and need Olympic weightlifting. I need to be really strong. I need to, since you're doing plyometrics and the books say that you need to squat double body weight to do plyometrics, like Stop right there, JC.

Speaker 1:

You know, I remember reading that and I had no idea where it came from. Where did that come from?

Speaker 3:

That came from the European model, the Russian model, because plyometrics is depth jumps. Plyometrics is not SAQ, it's not a speed of generally quickness, it's not ladder drills, it's not cone drills. All of that is plyometric. It's not skipping and learning biomotor patterns, karyokas, tapioca and all the little things that children that are eight, nine, 10 years old, that were not exposed. So that can definitely improve from those motor skills because they weren't raised playing. When you're raised playing, kill the man with the ball, hide and seek, dodge the ball, king of the hill. When you're raised like that, guess what? Everybody skips, everybody lateral shuffles, every, because it's what you do every day for some reason. Since we don't have that Now, we got to give it a name, we got to give it a programming, we got to give it an equipment and SAQ is born.

Speaker 3:

Saq wasn't available when I was coming up because we had plenty of empty parking lots, empty, empty lots where games would go on and you were so bored that you didn't, you'd invent your own goddamn game. That's right. Okay, so that came across and that comes from Verkoshansky, zatiorsky, that world. That world because they were using equipment and techniques when they were starting to experiment with this. Okay, because we were ruling the Olympics until the Soviet block came in in the 70s and started stomping ass Shit. Okay, skills development, skill identification, at eight, nine years old. And then, when you were 14 and 15 and we dialed in on what you were going to go, it was gang, gang, gang, gang you try with East Germany.

Speaker 1:

Same with East Germany, yeah all.

Speaker 3:

Eastern block. I'll put all Eastern block countries in the same, in the same categories. So then you try to see, first time I do an SAQ camp. Fresh out of my masters I got two door bonpa, mike Stone, randy Smythe, I got books everywhere and I am going to paradise this thing, and I am going to do 200 foot contacts and then 250 foot contacts by week, six, 300 foot. So I did all that, spent about six weeks preparing my first SAQ camp.

Speaker 3:

I go to St Andrews, I start the warm up and these little silver spoon, baby little bitches start dying on me, dying on me. I went boom, here we go. This ain't that. How old were they? They were in high school. St Andrews is high school, but I wasn't working with middle school. Okay, I was working with Johnny O's basketball team.

Speaker 3:

That was my first speed, generally quickness back in 1994. Dude, I went through the whole blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and I couldn't do. I couldn't pull that program off because that program was double body weight program. You know they're talking about single leg bounding. We're only gonna do five reps times three. These kids can't balance on a single leg. You want them to hop on a single leg, right Bound on a single leg. Shit, you must be kidding, bro. So that's the issue. That's where that came from. So back to why do you want more vertical jump? Why do you need more strength for vertical jump? Oh, cause he's on the basketball team. I go look up jump shots best jump shots of 2022, 2023, if they're available, and you'll see jump shots that are single digits at the pro level. Single digits Because if you have bad positioning, you can jump 36 inches and a six foot four will lose against a seven foot three guy every day.

Speaker 3:

You'll get stopped by the way, yeah, but if you're fading away, the parabolic path and physics takes care of the vertical, if you're juking and you get them to bite on your step you just bought yourself three or four feet, you don't need a vertical bro.

Speaker 1:

Well, you watch Luca Dunsic and he barely gets off the ground and he's like floating them over people.

Speaker 3:

All of them, all of them. It's not him, it's Colby, it's all of them. Every once in a while you have a breakaway. They want to show off and they want a 360 tomahawk, different gig. But let me tell you that 360 tomahawk doesn't get you any more points than the layup. That just doesn't figure a roll right in there. They all get you the two pointer. So do you want the tomahawk? Let me tell you your kid is white, he's five, nine. Okay, he's not going to even play varsity in high school. Okay, he ain't going to do no tomahawk, so forget about that. How about we get him to learn how to, you know, put him from the foul throw line, okay, from the paint. How about we get him to be 80% from there? Okay, and have him great dribbling, all right, and then shoot like Jerry West, double handed set shots, 90%, 90% from way back outside the paint. Hey, jerry West was a stud Dude, I'm telling you. The dude wouldn't miss. He just needed two hands on the balls.

Speaker 1:

So, okay. So this idea I know you said it wasn't meant to be taken literally, the idea that you can never be strong enough, but I think I think in essence, it actually is meant to be taken literally. Why? Because what are strength coaches? What's their job? Well, to get you stronger. Well, okay, now you added 50 pounds of your squat 100 to your dead, you know, and another 50 to your bench. Okay, well, I've done my job. But what about next year? Well, I'm going to get you stronger. Now let's how about this?

Speaker 1:

Let's look at a continuum of easy, low-skill sports and very complicated sports. To me, easy sport is distance running. Low-skill, mostly, you know your training, it's metabolic type training. High-skill sports tennis and fighting. Okay, so, low-skill, high-skill. Deal with the low-skill first. And I want both of your opinions in terms of okay, we know, resistance training helps with running economy. They're not necessarily trying to get stronger. Yet strength coaches, what's their job? They want to get them stronger. So how do you titrate that in terms of okay, you know what? You're a 150 pound distance runner. You're already the second fastest on your D1 team. I don't really think you need to squat more. Or you would say, I think you need to squat more. How do you deal with that?

Speaker 3:

Number one understand the culture, because most distance runners, you show them a weight room and they scream because I'm going to get slower. So, first of all, look, I'm in a world of culture, mma. Okay, here we are, guys, we're PhD brains. Most PhD brains that do really well are in what they're in the tech world, they're in the medical world, they're in the political world. They're in the world where their brain power can generate a lot of influence, thus a lot of money. Got it? Okay, my brain that belongs there. Guess where it's at? It's in the combat world.

Speaker 3:

I deal with savages that are not educated and I'm dealing with three and four generations of that. So how do I convince them of that? Well, it's the same thing. Try to break the distance culture that are built like concentration camp victims, okay, and try to convince them that muscle strength may lead to muscle power. And we're not talking about 200 pound squat. If you're a miler and you're in the world rankings, dude, you may not even have to squat.

Speaker 3:

How about if we single leg press you? How about if we work on that ankle stiffness that you already have? Why? Because the majority of the elite milers are African descent. And if you look at African descent.

Speaker 3:

Look at the build of the long distance runner. You will see no calf. Why? Because you don't need muscle contraction, you need tendon stiffness, because the spring in the ankle acts as a spring, not as a lever. There's no, the lever disappears. The spring appears because of that big tendon. So you just need a little calf up there, actually probably more for knee flexion, since the gastro crosses the knee, more for knee flexion than plantar extension, which is insane.

Speaker 3:

So how about if we just pump train the ankle to be a spring train, the single leg plant of running, and you can leave the deadlift and you can leave the squat or even a leg press to the hey, how much of this do you like? I don't like it because it kinda makes me slow. Boom, no problem, you know what. We don't need to do it.

Speaker 3:

But if you tell a runner, hey, you run one leg at a time, huh, how about we use this little Smith machine? Or how about we use the single leg press to use the leg exactly as you use it? And if we can get you standing and stabilize the seven frame so when you plant, the hip collapses less and less, so we create that stiffness, bro, you'll be able to get an extra inch off of every stride. Yeah, that culture will understand that and that culture will go oh, I love this. And then we call it functional training. No, it's not functional training, but all it is. But that's not what's sold it. It's not the magic functional training category that's sold it. It's the understanding of the culture and being able to communicate with the culture, which is called coaching.

Speaker 1:

So that's great, Tony. I want your comment. So that's low skill, that's a low skill sport. Tony. What do you think of Jaycee's comments?

Speaker 2:

I love that and so, because strength should be the result of movement choice, not, oh, I'm just training to get strong, right? So yeah, I want to see. It's nice that my if I just choose hypothetically, a Hexburg deadlift free young athlete, a young wrestler, they don't have an extensive lifting background. So there may be, you know, it might be a good movement. The goal there is I'm trying to optimize muscle function that may carry over a translate tendon function, as Jaycee discussed, to the sport itself, right. So I'm going to put on a given load, an estimated load and range that I'm going to target, and but the goal there is the proper strengthening of the desired muscle groups for achieving the tendon stiffness or creating a body that is going to be more resilient to the training that occurs, that their skill training, and one that may translate you know how do the movements that may translate better. But my goal is it to start them specifically just at 150 and get them 350 pounds. At no given point in my looking at an exercise and just saying the goal is simply to get stronger. The goal is to create strength that will translate to a fight sport, whether that gets me from 200 to 225, as an example, in a given movement that has the carry over great, I don't measure the success of that movement as to whether or not they're doing 350 or 400 pounds, so there's a limit.

Speaker 2:

Jaycee chose some movements that have the greatest utility for the distance runner. Right, the goal wasn't only going to get them stronger. First let's use what will translate best to that athlete and what is most practical to his earlier point. He doesn't need three other bathrooms, so he chose the one bathroom he needs for that runner. And then the side effect of that yeah, you want to make progress, you want to see the athlete get stronger, but that's an effect of the right choice and movement, the best exercise selection and the best carry over and translation to the sport. So I think that was an excellent analogy, particularly just using the gym analogy of saying, hey, this is the limited dose I need for this specific function. I'm not going to put in two front desk, three more bathrooms. Same thing with the strength training for athletic performance Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

And to add to that, I can even zero in. So say, wrestler 165. Take the hex, the hex squad deadlift. All good, I love it, one of my favorites to use. Hey coach, what's good here? And here's my answer. What's your weight class? 165 after hydration. How much is the guy way? 170. You need to pick up 200. Do you fight 200 pound guys? You wrestled, you wrestle 170 at best. Okay. So how about if we do 170 tired, instead of 190 for one or one, 200 for one or 250. What's going to get you stronger? Carry over not only mechanically but mentally mentally, because it's coaching guys.

Speaker 3:

It's coaching. It ain't about the weight, it's about the placebo effect that you can create. If, with 25 pounds, you are Vince Lombardi and you can convince this guy, this girl, that they're unbeatable, when they leave your gym bartender, check please, I'm out exactly correct. And the weight is irrelevant Exactly Can they come out of the gym feeling like they're unbeatable. That's what the training does. The training is not about 234 hundred. The training is about what they feel the training is. So that's how I sell them.

Speaker 3:

On the 170. Okay, guy, hey, 185. Okay, because maybe the guy rehydrates 15 pounds. Okay, we're going to do 185. All right, but, coach, how about in the strength phase? I'll give you 195 for six. How about that? But it's too easy. Fantastic, we're going to work on something else. And then in the circuit, in the circuit you better get fun with this one 95, because in the circuit I'm going to give you 175. After four exercises that pre fatigued the heart, the legs and the back and the gripping. Now pick up this 170, 10 times. And if you can pick that a belly to back, belly to belly Anything body lock is going to be easy.

Speaker 2:

Done Hardly. You're right on JC with that translation. Have to know that what they did made them better in what they're going to do, and that's really what you're convincing them of Absolutely and never leave exhausted.

Speaker 3:

Coach, I can do one more set. I know you can. You want to know why? Because the training is working. That's why you can do one set, yeah, yeah, but. But but, let's do more. No, I need that energy that you have to go home and bring up your parasympathetic system, which, by the way, requires energy. This shit just doesn't float Right. It takes energy to balance that aesthetic and pair broke that elevator for that parasympathetic to come up. That takes energy. You can't sleep when you're overtired. You're not even hungry when you're tired. So I need you to be hungry, I need you to have enough energy for digestion, and then I need enough energy to go to sleep, because that's when the magic happens. Nobody explains that shit to the, to the athletes, and, coming from a barbaric world of combat, forget it. Insomnia, black and blue, fractured. You're in the right, you're on the right track, baby.

Speaker 1:

You know it's interesting in terms of the weight room culture and trying to get athletes as strong as possible. I mean, you're both are familiar with the NFL combine. A gentleman by the name of Christian McCaffrey didn't really do that well in the NFL combine. Apparently his bench was not very good and it's not like he's a squatter, but something happens on the field and it's magical, so so something and this is where I get in discussions with with strength coaches all the time about you fall in love with numbers in the weight room and it doesn't necessarily translate onto the field. So let me ask you guys a pragmatic question. A tennis serve I mean obviously a tennis service is pure power. Let's say, your service kind of mediocre, you're not really getting any aces. How would you approach that tennis player and saying you know, baseline game is good, you're great at rallying, you're great at volume, but your service kind of weak? How would you approach that player?

Speaker 3:

Well, let's, let's. Let me preface that by saying combines are a predictor of failure. That's great. I'm not that. That's not an opinion. Go to the Hall of Fame and find me. How many combined standouts are in the Hall of Fame today relative to the total number of Hall of Famers? Go ahead, find me, find me.

Speaker 1:

We know who the worst combine guy was.

Speaker 3:

Then reverse engineer it. Show me the top how many top combine performers have tanked in the NFL, and you'll see that it's a high percentage. So is the combine a athletic identification program or is the combine almost a failure predictor program? If I'm betting, if I'm a betting man and you're betting my money on it, I'll bet that the top combine performer has a shitty NFL career. That's my thing. On combine, I am playing those games.

Speaker 3:

Now back to back to the back to the tennis player. I got to look at this guy. Is this guy a Chang or is this guy six foot four? If you're a Chang, let me tell you, brother, you're, you're a six foot tall shooting guard in the NBA. You better, you better have golden hands and anything you go here has to sing, if not, forget it, because you're not tall enough to bang with the big boys. Okay, so let's start with that. If you're a smaller guy, if you're saying 511, 510.

Speaker 3:

I'm going, dude, you better play with that ball. English is your favorite word. You better get that ball to spin and put it where you want them. You got to make them run because you just don't have that Sam Press height. You just don't have those, those, those big boy, big boy levers. You're going to be a shit. Okay, you're going to be driving them crazy, placing that ball where you want them. Make them come to the net, lob it over. Make them come to the net, lob it over, right, left, drive them nuts. I got a coach of their and if he said on a thing that's like a fighter that set on sparring seven days a week, and I got him, I got him. You know what you do. Is you say bye, bye, run that play. Let me know how it goes for you. I know how it's going to end up. They don't.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, so you maximizing ability and quality, right, you got pictures in American baseball who can't from 102. So they got a curve, they got a slider right and they they make do with that.

Speaker 3:

Dude, you're, you're. You're not explosive, you're just not. You're one of those guys that can jump slow, okay, so let me tell you that that power, that entry, you're going to have to live on timing. You have to live on timing, you live to live on position, because you just cannot impose your genetics on somebody and you can't impose in terms of speed and power. You're, you're just not built like that. So you better get angles and come in with timing and finesse, because you're not going to do that way. Lee. Shit, I'm shorter than you, you're the striker and I'm going to beat you on distance from the outside and I'm striking. Are you kidding me? Yeah, because I'm all that in a bag of donuts, all right. So if you're going to be that way, lee, then you can stay in the line and go against Lemo's, who's a striker, and beat the living shit out of her.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I'll strike her out clincher and then, of course, take her down and mall her. But you better be that way, lee.

Speaker 1:

So the fights where you have guys like Deontay Wilder who could knock out every human being on the planet except one guy, right, so he can hit so hard that it's probably the one thing that he's always at least in his mind saying you know what? I can beat all of you who would, basically one skill that is better than all of humanity, except against you know one guy, fury. So with him, if you were to coach him again I mean, he's already fought Tyson Fury three times and lost three times Is there even a way to change the way he fights, that maybe he could outbox Tyson Fury?

Speaker 3:

Positioning. The only thing, look, and that what we don't mention is that both of these guys are how tall they're huge.

Speaker 2:

What's the range? Six, seven and watch six, six right.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. So they're Albatrosses. It's not that they hit hard is that they don't get hit because they got this San Francisco bridge that they can put in front of them and you've got to navigate that and the toll at the end or in the middle of that bridge is devastating. Okay. So the only way to go against Fury knowing them that you can have him all but out, and if you don't put, if you don't put a round in his head, he's going to get back up and you got to live with that Okay is positioning, positioning. If I stand in front of him, he's going to get me. So I got to take angles and, trust me, everybody agrees, I can show you videos and you go this is the move you have to learn. And I'm telling you right now. They'll say you know they'll go like that, no, or you understand, yes, and you try to get them to do it and they default back to what they've been doing the last 15 years, because a new trick is very, very hard to learn with an old dog. We all know that.

Speaker 3:

So it look, if you're in good position, we can all say, like in judo, if I get you stepping and I catch you up here in transition. Dude, I can hold you with two fingers and just put my foot there. I don't even have to sweep you. You're going to trip over my foot and the whole body weighs zero. At the top of the parabolic path it weighs zero and you'll see this guy turn, you go. Wow, look at that power. It wasn't power, it was tiny. If I catch you with a parallel hips when I'm coming in in combat, I catch you on your heels, especially if I catch you with one foot down and the other one up parallel. Oh my God, I got a free shot. So learn to get there. Everybody goes Okay, now do it. The coaches won't teach it and the fighters won't do it. Trust me, I've been there for now three years. I got video, I got, I got proof and they'll go.

Speaker 1:

No, let me ask you both this how many fights are lost based on what the strength conditioning coach did with the fighter? Zero, 1%. It's so. Yeah, go on, that's it.

Speaker 2:

We just don't know how to measure it right. I mean because how about this, how about this?

Speaker 1:

let me paraphrase it. And what they did? You've done training camp. You're like he's the best. He's the best f in shape in his life. I mean, he's strong, he's powerful, he's quick. You've done all you can as a strength coach. Well, those guys, is that we've lost and we've lost.

Speaker 3:

Oh, story of my life, my life, jeff Munson. He's 65. We're the stronger guy with the most condition against boom. Wrong tactical approach. What did we teach him here? Do not go for a take down the middle of the road. This guy's got a long sprawl. He's six foot 10, your five, nine at best.

Speaker 1:

You're going to end up this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, okay. What does he do? He takes the first shot in the middle. He's like this for two and a half minutes and I'm seeing my strength and mission. He just like this dollars, resource, dollars, go, go, go, go, go. We spent 12 weeks Move, move, move, bump Russian. When you get to the fence then you drop levels. We spent 12 weeks with that. It wasn't. It wasn't done. The only thing conditioning is what kept them alive, because if you look at his pictures, he made it to the UFC Almanac, which is the big book that they saw you Boom, all bloodied and black and blue and like this, at the end of that fight took a beating that would kill most people.

Speaker 3:

And then fast forward 20 years. We got Gilbert Burns against Kamara Usman. We had the most powerful fighter, we had the faster fighter, we had the best jujitsu fighter, better grappler, better tank, gas tank. We got him the first round. Bam, exactly what we said that right hand's going to catch him. He didn't go after him. He didn't go after him. No, no, he went after. He got like this and dad, adrenaline just went and I'm going oh shit, he went his whole thing in about 30 or 40 seconds and we got knocked out with the frigging jab. We got knocked down with the jab Drop.

Speaker 1:

Hey, he did much better against.

Speaker 3:

Osmo, yeah, we had, we had, we had him in good shape for that one. Yeah, he wasn't happy and that's why a lot of things have changed and he changed his training camp and he changes a lot of things is he wasn't happy with the process that he went through here against homicide, homicide. He wasn't happy and I'm not so sure that he's ready to return to that. To tell you the truth, I love Gilbert. I think he's a standing, a stand up man, great husband, father, you know, jujitsu guy, mma guy. I'll tell you the truth, every fighter has one fight where they, where they leave 10 years in the ring or in the octagon. That's, that's your thing. I believe Hamzad was Gilbert's greatest moment and I hope to God that he has another one.

Speaker 3:

I really I would, I would give my right arm for that. But in my coaching experience I think that that altitude that that summit is that, that one, that one was K2 brother. Wow, that one was.

Speaker 1:

K2 Tony, your your experience with this?

Speaker 2:

It's look I don't know how to measure it like it's a strength coach. Oh, I can do. The best data I have is how the fighter says they felt, because if they lose I can say well you know, perhaps I built a little bit more localized muscle endurance, maybe they get a few more shots in with 20 seconds left in the in the last round and they win it. So I can always say there's something more I could have done, and I'm always going to be hesitant to say that anything I did attributed significantly to the victory. My goal is, just when I work with these guys keep them in good condition, keep them healthy, build the resiliency they need to get through the camp. And hopefully, you know what, if I do everything right and their qualities are primed, maybe I even make them a better learner. I mean, maybe they can refine their skills more effectively because the conditioning, the requisite qualities, are there. That's really all I can. You know, I never really was able to say why I had something to do with that, but I'll tell you this I will always be quick to blame myself, despite the fact, like JC said, sometimes it's completely decision making and finding and the decisions made in the cage and the skill applications. But I'll always look back at and go, ah well, you know, maybe I should have done this but I will never take credit for it because there are too many variables involved.

Speaker 2:

You feel good, like JC said, when they go through a war and like when Jeff was kept alive. You know the conditioning was a big part of that. You definitely feel. You know you say, okay, good, we brought something to the table. But I just you really can't measure your contribution. I've had great camps 12 weeks by every measurable marker strength, skill coaches, happy, faster, better qualities. Three minutes into the fight I'm getting text why I didn't do this and why I didn't do that, because everything just goes wrong. So it's really really hard sometimes to make any clear measurement of what your contribution was.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean we're getting really good at having what we would consider a perfect camp. Does that mean you don't learn? No, no, no, no. Does that mean that that every camp will be like this because it's the perfect camp? No, no, in the context of everything, what do we mean with perfect camp? There was no injuries. We didn't have to pull back because he got a upper respiratory infection from some overtraining. Maybe they had nothing to do with us. Bottom line is perfect camp means we were able to hit all the workouts to the intensities that we kind of thought we needed, the. The guy is fresh. More importantly, he's fresh when. How do you feel? And they go great. Another perfect camp. Perfect camp, perfect fight.

Speaker 3:

I've done my job. I've done my job and when I, when I feel I've done my job, rarely will the guy not punch at the end because he's, he's all bound up because we prepared for that. My guy will not be the guy with hands on the knees. You know now, my guy may choose to take the third round off because he was coached, and that happened to me in London and I got all sorts of pissed off, although we got a good nod from three London judges against a London fighter in London and I felt we lost the third round and somehow, somehow, we won that fight. We didn't get the good nod against the mind which I thought he won the fight and because he didn't, he didn't get really active in that third round. Yeah, they didn't give it to him. So my, my take home message is you never, ever, take that third round off because you think you're ahead. Two to one. Two to one could be, oh, two Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

You never know, you never take the third round off. Now you can strategize and maybe not go for the take down, but you're moving laterally bang bang, movie, laterally bang bang. You got to out to this guy Either. If it's not take downs, punches, it's not punches, it's a leg kicks. You got to out to this guy safely so I can have a perfect camp and lose like I get against Kamara Usman.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 3:

What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? That ain't me, bro, that ain't me. You decided to take the third round off like demand, the demand here in the last. That ain't me. That ain't me. That's on the coaching side.

Speaker 1:

I have a question for you to how would you define modern strength training, and I'll mention four modes of training. I'll wait. Lifting, powerlifting, let's call it functional training and bodybuilding training. Now, before I answer that question or give me your thoughts, at least within the science world, most of the quote resistance training studies seem to be bodybuilding type of studies. So I guess my question you is you know the relevance of that to real life training? I mean, there's not really that many bodybuilders and how you know, if you're trying to, you know, teach people who know nothing about training it. They say, well, what exactly is modern strength training? What is it?

Speaker 3:

I think, modern strength training. If you're a coach, that's really pushing yourself, pushing the envelope. How can? Am I doing everything that I can do? Is there something else that I can add? Can I elevate to another height so I can see a little bit more of the city? Okay, so I'm not just making decisions on my block. No, I can see more of the city so I can make bigger decisions. It should be a hybrid.

Speaker 3:

There's nothing wrong with certain elements of any of those things that you mentioned. So if there's nothing wrong in it actually there's some beneficial things why can't we use them? The thing is, look, functional training as we know it, or the things that we were talking about how are you going to study that, bro? How are you going to study the things Tony and I were talking about? How are you going to study that? Too many confounding variables Okay, powerlifting it's easy.

Speaker 3:

It's three reps, five sets of threes or whatever you want. Five sets of five, okay, you do that for six weeks versus five sets of 10. Look, when you're going triples heavier, you get stronger for a single Yay. Where are the confounding variables? There are none. Bodybuilding you got hypertrophy, whatever. You got dexa for a body composition. Okay, eight weeks of eight sets times two per week, times 10 reps per body systems. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Versus one set to failure. Multiple sets versus one set to failure. Easy to measure, easy to study. Go ahead and study the shit we're doing. Go ahead and study the shit we're doing.

Speaker 3:

The confounding variables are going to be a million. How are you going to control that? What's your measurement? How are you going to control the thing that we control in scientific research, which is the instruction? So if there are instructions, we usually read them, because you don't want coach involvement, you don't want motivation. So we read the instructions very monotone, so everybody gets the same shit.

Speaker 3:

Okay, that's not coaching. Bro, if you hear me, coach my boys, you're at the UFC right now. Punish them, punish them, throw elbows. You got to. You know like my voice goes and they say coach, when you talk to me like that, I'm in the UFC, I get anxious and I see the guy's face in between. I said great, because the body doesn't know the difference between a real chick and a wet dream. That's right. That's why my job is to create the wet dream here, because I don't have the UFC, I don't have the real chick, I don't have the octagon Ooh, which leads me to something, tony, we all know that you need to practice to create a skill that's subcortical and it's done reflectively, okay, instead of reactively? Yes, yep yep.

Speaker 3:

Okay, yep, yeah, okay. So we know this right. Okay, but we can't spar 100% because we would kill all the other guys, exactly Okay. So how do you get a wizard to risk control, to push, bam boom and smash a friggin elbow into the face where, even if it's blocked, it's cutting something? Where do you practice that? You don't. You don't practice that because there's no methodical practice on any bag where you're actually developing punching power progressively, periodically, like periodizing punching power, right. How do you develop it then? Because these guys hit the bag. Okay, 30 seconds left, sprint, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And okay, I hope that my jab is harder, my right is harder, my hooks are harder. But yeah, yeah, wait a minute. When you want your biceps stronger, you do curls, right, and then, if you want them really strong, you do five reps. If you want volumize, you do 12 reps. Where is that in punching it?

Speaker 2:

doesn't exist. No, there's nothing systematic. You're absolutely right, okay, we?

Speaker 3:

have it systematic now. Yeah, okay, and we're getting the punch cube installed so we can actually see 80% of your maximum RM here. So we're going to develop bone mineral density. Punching power, which is a separate skill, yeah, like it's like neural firing for a one RM.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a skill set you don't find if you're doing 12 reps Yep.

Speaker 3:

So these people don't get better systematically, they get better organically and by chance.

Speaker 1:

Which you know. I'm sorry, tony, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

No, no it's a great point. There's not really. It's almost arbitrary in how the brain is processing the information and fortunately sometimes it's getting it wrong and sometimes it's getting it right. Over time it gets a little bit more right than it got wrong. But I understand exactly. There's no linear progression that is utilized to measure technique. Is there an increase in velocity in the strike? How the strike is being thrown? But really does it? Just good points, but go on, jim.

Speaker 3:

But no, no, no, tony, I want to hear from you the original question how do you mix and how do you conceptualize the Olympic weightlifting, the powerlifting, the bodybuilding, because there's utility in all. How do you come across, how do you put your programs together? How do you consider all these different modalities when you're working with any athlete?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think. Ok. So you said it beautifully. Why is anything first being discounted? It may have lower priority any one type of training practice. So it's the same thing with diet, like, oh, I only eat this way, I only eat that way, I only eat this way. Yeah, well, wednesday it might be OK to be carnivore, and then it might be all right to go back to Mediterranean on Tuesday. There's nothing wrong. You might be able to use elements of each diet and actually benefit from that. So to me, the strength training is a playbook. It's like Andy Reed sitting on the sidelines with a big card and I'm going to assess what does the fighter potentially need the most? So all fighters need the same bio motor qualities. They need these qualities in order to excel. They don't possess those qualities equally, and so some may be, as you were saying earlier with the tennis player. So how do I optimize? Which is named the smaller guy, chang?

Speaker 1:

Right, well, chang, yeah, yeah. What do we do to?

Speaker 2:

optimize his abilities. So some of the movements in that playbook, if you will, I'm going to take these different things that are available and utilize them one to further what they are strong in and then potentially strengthen what they may be a bit weakened, but there's not an advanced prototype workout for that, so I'm made choose from a whole. Like I said, I have a playbook, chang, saying OK, this individual needs more of A, b and C Based upon their age. They don't have great lifting experience prior. They're 20 years old. Maybe I do need to build some bone density and a little bit more thickness and resiliency in attendance if they're going to be doing this for another 10 years, right.

Speaker 2:

So each individual is going to get a separate prescription because they may not need entirely the same type of workout or qualities to be augmented. So I have that playbook and that's why I liked what you said is I'm not going to rule out immediately one particular style of training, because it may have some utility. It may not be emphasized, but there may be some point in a fighter where a little bit of hypertrophy helps, in the trap, in the neck, for example, right for when they're getting for impact. So for me, strength training is using the best tools available that are most appropriate for the needs of that individual at that time. I wish I could have something more enlightening than that, but that's what it is to me, but it's a hybrid model.

Speaker 3:

You have all things available. It's Jeet Kune Do. It's all things available, of course. Exactly what if you have three weeks? You want to start building bone mineral density? You've got three weeks, man. I drop them straight into power endurance and I'm going to tell you look, if I don't kill you, they will. So you die here before you die there.

Speaker 2:

And you will get three weeks. You're right. But that's to my point. Right, the playbook changes. The card is a different play. It's now fourth and 15. It's not fourth and one Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Well, if you're fourth and at the goal, it's probably better to run beast mode than it is to throw the ball. Hey. One last question Predictions for Tyson Fury versus Francis Dingata. Come on.

Speaker 3:

You got my Look Tyson Fury on the books. Tyson Fury If I'm betting a betting man, I'm not betting Francis Dingata. Do I want him to win? I would love him to win. What I want to be, how does he win? Knockout, knockout, he's got to swing, he's got to throw bombs and hope and hope he doesn't get caught in that San Francisco bridge and pay that toll.

Speaker 1:

But make it up there While there's a much better boxer and he was throwing bombs. Yeah Well, that's. That's the problem, he's he's.

Speaker 2:

He hopes he didn't take a look at it.

Speaker 3:

And I hope you make it ugly. Get inside. Get inside, hey, freaking, throw a punch and hope you catch an elbow and cut him and say sorry, you know that kind of shit. Couple of low blows, bro. You're in a fight. You're in a fight for your life. Okay, yeah, you're going to make big money, but you're in a fight. Don't don't. Don't try to get cute and don't try to snap classic jabs. Listen to Tyson, because Tyson had that, that grunge shit on you. Move in, move out. He's the shorter guy, so he teaches from that perspective, so he's going to teach them. God, you're the shorter guy, you don't be standing up, coming in high. How are you doing? You know, and introduce yourself, because you're going to get knocked into another world. That you know. Listen to Tyson, you got a good guy, a shorter guy that beat big guys.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there it is, and you know that punch comes in a lot harder with that big love on, and it does in most cases with an MMA glove, like people tend to forget that right, it's like American football, the old argument American football versus rugby. Oh well, rugby is tougher, you know, you have no pants, yeah, but you hit hell of a lot harder with different.

Speaker 3:

Rugby is a kind of a wrap and let wrap and take them down. That, that American football, oh my God.

Speaker 2:

Coming like meteors and that that hand with more glove and more petty man comes in really hard yeah.

Speaker 1:

And one last comment. One last comment the gym business Okay, JC. When people ask me one if they want to be a strength conditioning coach, and two, there's always a few somewhat crazy students are like you know what? I'd like to get into the gym business. Give your little elevator pitch about the pitfalls and the good things about it. I mean because you've been in it for over two decades.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Sorry, jc, I just want to say that IHP I mean, when I started in this industry, ihp was about around, and even though JC and I have the same age, I came in a little later. You know, maybe you're too old or something, but my point is very few people have done what he's done. That gym has been there a long time and going on 23 and that took how many years now going on 23.

Speaker 3:

That's impressive. The average, the average span right here in this area is between three and four years, exactly, oh, three and four years, and they bail out. We're coming up on 23, at 25,. We will be the oldest gym in Boca history. Right now we're the oldest gym in Boca period, but in two more years we will be Michael's body scenes record. That was around for 25 years.

Speaker 3:

Wow. So let's go make that. But here I heard something early on and I'm not sure if it was Thomas Plummer or Ruth or one of those guys that was in charge of making you a better business. You know teaching shit. They don't do. You know what I'm saying, that kind of shit. But they said something that is manifesting now the gym business, the training, is the lifestyle. Yeah, you can make 60, $100,000, 120. That's enough to buy you a car and get you to Disney World twice a year. Yeah, that's it. And in today's world that's not even enough to buy a house Period. So, yeah, the gym and training is the lifestyle.

Speaker 3:

The property is the retirement and not because I was smart, is just where I landed, with the people that I landed. I own a third of the property of IHP and now it's 65, coming up on 65 in June. I'm looking at what do I have, the sacrifices I've made, the money I've dumped into this place versus my 401k, which is the property. And if I wouldn't have had this property, I'm telling you right now I would be, I would not be in a good place, right, but because I have the property, I'm not. I'm not rich, but I know that I will not die destitute. I will have enough for my retirement. Why is?

Speaker 1:

it so difficult, though you said you're the longest standing gym in Boca. Why do these gyms? They come and go, is it just?

Speaker 3:

because they think one thing and they find another. It's a typical look. I love to cook and entertain. Let me open up a restaurant. Boom, same thing. Restaurants and gym is the same thing. The failure rate is like 90% 95%. Okay, why? Because working out and loving fitness is not running a gym. And by the time you find that out, you've spent the 20,000 you had saved up over seven years your mom's 30,000 that she gave you so you could open up the place, and probably an angel investor is another 50 that you use to buy the equipment and after five years it's gone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

It's gone and you're saying I'm sorry and it's gone because it's not the same. Running a gym is not training, it's not coaching, it's not working out. Running a gym is different. So you're going to do the same thing. I spent my mom's money, my money and my angel investor money and I bought everything and then I went belly up. In three years, five years, the restaurant tour came and bought all my shit for 10 cents on the dollar.

Speaker 3:

All right, now he's going to open up another restaurant that he just sees as numbers. He don't like to cook. No, he hires at a nestle from Mexico as his cook pays him 500 bucks a week and he's super happy. And then he gets a hot little girl from high school that he can pay $15. All right To be his. What do you call it? Make hostess, make your day Hostess, okay, and he's, and he's running it. Bartenders on tips, let's go. Here's my. You know there's my formula and I know where to buy the steak. I know where to buy, I know how much to buy so it doesn't go go bad on me or I throw away the least the perishables or cut that. That dude has that shit down to a science. The person who opened up the restaurant that, so I can. I can have my family and friends come and visit me. He don't know shit.

Speaker 2:

Hey, how many? Just to let him know quickly how many hours a week you in there.

Speaker 3:

In here probably 30 to 40, but in here, yeah, more than the week has bro.

Speaker 2:

Right, and then you're only 168 hours.

Speaker 3:

And I'm sure you, I. This here is occupied six times, Probably 130.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so I don't put 36 hours.

Speaker 3:

No, that's what I'm physically here when I'm mentally thinking about it, late at night at 2am, if I do payroll, if I do this, what is projection? What if I get a hurricane and I'm down $30,000, because I'm down 10 days or two weeks and I'm down 30 G's, what happens? Do I have enough to roll that Great that that keeps you up at night? If you have a conscience, okay, and nobody's thinking about two to, from 12 to two, where you, when you're solving those nightmares, that's time in too, buddy, that's time in too, yeah. So yeah, out of the 168, 130, ihp occupant.

Speaker 2:

And when you were younger, I'm sure it was more than 40 hours when you started out, no, no, no.

Speaker 3:

When I was man, when I was 40, I was telling my son, rio, you're at 33. Your maximum operating is 35 to 45. Give or take those 10 years, you can't be beaten. And if you don't feel like that, if you don't feel OCD for the place, if you don't feel like when does the bank open? I want to see what my account is at 730 because you're waking up. If you're not there, buddy, you ain't going to be get a fucking job. You know I'll sell this place and I'm out Because I know what it takes to to succeed here. And if you don't have that, get out because you're not going to sink You're not going to sink my retirement money. I'm already there, bro.

Speaker 1:

Well, I do want to tell the audience. The website for your for IHP is IHP fitnesscom. That's IHP fitnesscom can also find JC on Instagram. I don't think you're on Twitter, though. I'm everywhere.

Speaker 3:

IHP fit. Ihp fit is the handle and you have your YouTube channel too, right? Everything IHP fit is everything YouTube, facebook, twitter, instagram and even TikTok. I think we're in, not me. That's read so well, hey, this has been a great conversation.

Speaker 1:

You're a wealth of knowledge. I want to thank you for being. You are an official sports science dude, by the way. So, thanks for being on the show, JC. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Tony, thank you, jc, thank you so much. Always a pleasure my brother Eat your, my friend.