Sports Science Dudes

Episode 53 Unlocking Peak Performance with Brandon Harris

• Jose Antonio PhD

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Join us as we chat with Brandon Harris, performance coach and owner of Premier Fitness Systems, who has been guiding top-tier athletes for over two decades. Brandon's unique insights shed light on the intricate world of athlete training, underscoring the need for individualized and flexible approaches.

00:00:03 Sports Science and Working With Athletes
00:11:49  Mental Aspect of Sports and Competition
00:24:00  Athlete Identity and Pursuit of Mastery
00:29:03  MMA Strength and Conditioning Approaches
00:40:20 Breath Technique and Nervous System Regulation

About our guest:

Brandon Harris is a performance coach and owner of premier fitness systems in Scottsdale AZ. His career coaching has spanned over 20 years and has worked with some of the world's top athletes. Including the current UFC bantamweight champion Suga Sean Omalley.

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance. The Sports Science Dudes represent the opinions of the hosts and guests and are not the official opinions of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the Society for Sports Neuroscience, or Nova Southeastern University. The advice provided on this show should not be construed as medical advice and is purely an educational forum.

Hosted by Jose Antonio PhD

Dr. Antonio is the co-founder and CEO of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and the co-founder of the Society for Sports Neuroscience, www.issn.net. Dr. Antonio has over 120 peer-reviewed publications and 16 books. He is a Professor at Nova Southeastern University, Davie, Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Twitter: @JoseAntonioPhD

Instagram: the_issn and supphd

Co-host Anthony Ricci EdD

Dr Ricci is an expert on Fight Sports and is currently an Assistant Professor at Nova Southeastern University in Davie Florida in the Department of Health and Human Performance.

Instagram: sportpsy_sci_doc and fightshape_ricci

 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the sports science dudes. I'm your host, dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. If you're a first-time listener, hit the subscribe button and like the show. Like it, like it, like it. You'll find us on YouTube, rumble, spotify and Apple Podcast. Our special guest today is Brandon Harris. He is a performance coach and owner of Premier Fitness Systems in Scottsdale, arizona, my third favorite state. I think Tony loves it as well. I like hot, so it's hot as hell there. I know that for sure. His career coaching has spanned over 20 years. He's worked with some of the world's top athletes, including the current UFC Bentham weight champion, sugar Sean O'Malley. So welcome to the show, sir. How you doing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, welcome guys. I really appreciate it. I feel like maybe I need to go get my PhD before I'm qualified to be on the show, though, so you guys might have to give me a couple more years.

Speaker 2:

No way I know your accomplishments. You're more than qualified. That's why we wanted to have you here.

Speaker 1:

We always say if you have a PhD in life and experience, that counts just as much, if not more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and sometimes it's even more expensive. So Really, really.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, just a sort of a brief overview. You know, as you know, I'm a huge MMA fan. I don't work with athletes the way you guys do, the way Tony, and you, brandon, but I love watching the sport. In fact, we are in the middle. You'll appreciate this, brandon. Tony's the lead author of a very large scientific you could call the scientific tome or scientific paper. It's what's called a position stand on training and nutrition for MMA athletes. So we're putting together whatever the scientific literature is as well as basically practical application because, let's face it, a lot of this is trial and error. It's not pure science, but we're in the middle of that and it's chugging along, tony. Well, yeah, it is.

Speaker 2:

We have just a couple of things to tune up. What that is, brandon? It's mostly nutrition and it goes into every aspect Nutrition for general camp or general prep, if you will, the cutting fight week, recovery and so forth. But what about 60 pages of literature right now, and we're collaborating with Charles over at the UFCPI and several other offices, so it's coming along really well. We love MMA so much. Even the ISSN is in on it.

Speaker 3:

I mean, yeah, I love it yeah. I love it yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, brandon, tell us, tell the audience a little bit about how you got to where you are. I know that everyone sort of has a different story or different journey in terms of how you got to working with athletes, the type of athlete you work with. From a physiology standpoint, I find it all fascinating, as well as the mental standpoint. So tell the audience a little bit about that.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I was an athlete growing up and initially wanted to play baseball in college, and that, you know, didn't end up working out.

Speaker 2:

What position?

Speaker 3:

I was an in-fielder and then an out-fielder yeah, so you know smaller guy, but I was a good player, grew up in Tucson Instead, took in academic scholarship to ASU and bounced around some different majors and stumbled on kinesiology and just fell in love with it and from that day on I've been infatuated with the body and infatuated with human performance and really grateful and fortunate that my whole career has been has been rooted in helping people achieve peak performance, helping people grow in really all aspects of their life.

Speaker 3:

So I started as a personal trainer in a big box gym and that went that span probably you know all the 10 years and then opened my own training company and a few years later opened my own gym. So it's all I've really done professionally and I love it. Yeah, I love it. I think there's nothing more interesting than we at Austin humans and human performance. So I feel like I've just beginning to even scratch the surface of having a, having an understanding, and I still feel, 20 years in my career, that you know I'm grateful to be getting up and and just again, so curious. So, yeah, here I am today, 20 years later, and somehow I became an OG in the industry, right?

Speaker 3:

I feel like you know you feel like you wake up one day and you're like holy cow man. But yeah, I love it. I really do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have a question in terms of the types of athletes you work with, because when and Tony, and I see this you know somewhat frequently online that people who don't have the experience you might have, or Tony has they, suddenly I guess they they become self-appointed experts. So you see this, this avalanche of information from people who they come up with these crazy ideas about how to train someone and whatnot. So how do you you know, when clients come up to you, how do you separate? You know they're going to say, hey, I saw someone on Instagram do this exercise, shouldn't we be doing that? How do you separate that from, I guess, more science-based, more you know, empirical based stuff that you might do with athletes?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think that's one of the negatives of social media is that people that have no idea what they need which is most people, and that's including professional athletes, you know. I think most people are trying to be better. There's so much information, there's so much, they're bombarded with information and social media can amplify that. So the guy or the girl that maybe is capable of doing something really fancy or they can, you know, lift a lot of weight or do a one-armed pull-up all of a sudden becomes an expert.

Speaker 3:

Fortunately for me at this point in my career, people that are that are seeking my help, that are seeking my knowledge, tend to be people that have a better understanding of what they're looking for and what they want, and I think that's because I do think you can track a certain type of person and the information that I've been putting out and the information that people and you know I work with and putting out and speaks to a certain audience. But it's difficult. I think it's one of the hurdles that modern even have to deal with is what is the right information or what is what is the information that we should be seeking out. I think that could be very difficult.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think it's complementary to that to you, because and so everybody knows and we'll move into this but Brandon's had tremendous success and, you know, amongst with many athletes and many MMA athletes, bringing a big part, a big part of course it's multi-team, but a big, you know, a big part of helping Sean get to the bell and advancing baseball progress too for his players.

Speaker 2:

But I think it's a compliment, brandon, that you're getting people now, when people come to you who have already a higher level of existing knowledge, that's a compliment, right, because these are the people that know where to go, despite everything else that's out there, and that's a compliment, I think, to your knowledge, your work and everything you've done. If somebody who has, let's say I'm throwing out arbitrary numbers because, to your point earlier, we never stop learning but if they have a knowledge base of 40 or 50% of something they may need to know in you know, strengthening, conditioning or human performance, and they're coming to you, I think that's a statement to who you are now and the work that you've done. You're getting the people that know they need the extra step and they know what's real or not. So you've worked to get there.

Speaker 1:

That's not just you know, it's not a bit, it's not lock.

Speaker 2:

It's not just a bunch of people going on Instagram. I think this guy knows a little bit more they know, you know a little bit more, and that's that's good work, because it is really hard to decipher.

Speaker 2:

When I followed you for a long time too and know you know right away who's doing the good work out there, so good to see a guy who's been working as hard as you as long as you've worked 20 years now every aspect of it study, the practical application, the incessant study and quest for knowledge it makes me feel good. I know it makes Joey feel good to see this happen for you, because it's not an easy write-up, it's a long write-up, it's a lot of hours to get there and you are contending and competing. What is you know and I know I'm never putting anyone down, but there's a lot of garbage out there that people have to sift through. So we're going to label that as a compliment and I think, the accolade that you deserve that those who know are coming to you right now.

Speaker 1:

So good work, my man, on that yeah, I appreciate that let me ask you this, before we get into your work with MMA and O'Malley um, what other athletes do you work with? So so, because I'd like to see how you, what your philosophy is in certain, in terms of training, different kinds of athletes.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, very fortunate again to have I've had athletes at the highest level of really every sport. So PGA tour winners NHL athletes.

Speaker 3:

NFL athletes, mlb athletes I think we've had everyone in our facility except no soccer and tennis, right that I can think of them. There are other sports I'm sure I'm missing, but we've had a lot of the top level performers. And, as I've progressed in my knowledge and my understanding, what I find fascinating is that when you look at that at the top the converging elements and the converging variables that you see at the top and I I now go directly to the mind that to me is at the very top you have a, you have a different belief in self. I think you have a different relationship with fear. I think there's there, there are these characteristics that now fascinate me with the guys at the top or the girls. You know the athletes at the top and I really think it comes down to how somebody manages their nervous system Right, we talked about that their, their adaptability and their resiliency in that respect and their, their belief in themselves, and to me, that that's the mind.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, it's been. It's been really cool, because now I feel like I'm in this almost like everyday research project, right, that's what interests me is the workings of the mind, and again, I feel like I'm just barely strapping the surface. It's like that, the knowing of not knowing. I know just enough to know that I have no idea, and it fascinates me, it really does so. So again, really really curious about that, and it's a lot of fun to have that opportunity. Well, let's.

Speaker 1:

let's dive into that a little bit more, because I know I know, tony, you talk quite a bit about that. But just one super quick question to solve one of the most pressing questions in sports science the most difficult skill is it hitting a golf ball or hitting a 100 mile an hour fastball?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean I. Those are the options. I'm probably going to go with baseball just because of the. You know the numbers, but they're both. They're both extremely hard from a guy that I can't golf and you threw you threw me in there against the hundred mile hour throw, or I'm probably not going to get a hit right, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, I know, tony and I you and I always discuss what's harder boxing or wrestling and you know there's not a real answer to it, because all of it is crazy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I've always, yeah, I just always said boxing just because of the sheer trauma. I mean, you know, taking shots to the incessant shots to the head. You're fighting an opponent who knows how to relocate your liver, but your liver center right to center left, you got a demon on the lungs from getting hit. I mean, man, you know, in any sport. Just, I always contend boxing stuff ran for that reason, in any sport, if you hit somebody in the head, you're either warned, penalized or rejected. And here we have MMA and boxing, where that is the actual goal of the sport. So I think because of that, that brings the level of difficulty up to its highest. But that's just a personal opinion.

Speaker 1:

Brandon, do you work with runners or cyclists, or? You know what I call the podium sports.

Speaker 3:

You know you want to place for a second or third amateurs, so we can warrior if you will but that's a, you know, a regular Joe that's just out there to to compete and feel good yeah not a ton, not a ton anymore. But we have those athletes in our facility for sure.

Speaker 1:

So this what I want to do is segue it to what happens in a race, going back to the mental preparation, and you know things are one or lost, you know, between the ears and in a race typically and this happens a lot and running maybe not probably as much in cycling If you're in a race and someone comes up to you and then passes you, almost always you become dejected.

Speaker 1:

you're like holy shit, I'm going to lose to this person even though nothing's really changed other than that person is slightly faster at that time point than you, but it really wrecks a lot of people. So what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's that relationship that that people have with their, with their self, their mind, the narrative that runs and I go back to my process my experience with the meditation practice, with the mindfulness practice, is really about this ability to observe the mind and to see it as a narrative. It's a story that we tell ourselves, that why we do it I mean that's complicated it's it's again, we're our programming or conditioning the environment we come up in. That's so nuanced. But if somebody can learn to see that and then develop skills for for dealing with it and not not push it away, but actually just see it as a thought and actually welcome it and actually move towards it, reframe it into something else, now we have a completely different, a different strategy. We have a completely different ball game, if you will, and I I think that again, going back to what I said earlier is that is so important, but it is.

Speaker 3:

It's difficult. We have, we have a lot of years of conditioning and programming to deal with, and that's a big piece of how I look at strength conditioning now. And the gem to me is not this, not just this vehicle for building physical preparation and for building the physical self, but it's a. It's a, it's a vehicle for, for working on that as well. And so if I'm doing, you know, if I'm doing heavy squats with with an athlete, I want to know what, what's going on in their head, I want to know what they're thinking, and then from there we can start to build out. Like, if you start to have those doubts, if those mental demons start to creep in, that's fine, let's just, let's just work with them, let's not push them away. So, um yeah, the ability to observe the mind, the ability to sit with those things, the ability to be less reactive, I think is so huge for progressing the athlete.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, see, and, as before we move into the MMA, he ran yourself spot on and I just was finished teaching us in sports psychology too. So it's almost acceptance commitment, right? You allow that bad thought to come in. Oh, he's in front of me, that's okay, all right. So you don't dwell on that thought.

Speaker 2:

But, to your point, you have a pathway that is established, that is previously there, a neural pathway, and that guy passes you and that pathway is established to make you tank, as you put it, joey, uh-oh, he's passing me again. Uh-oh, that is a physical property. That pathway has been developed, is a physical property and unfortunately it's the electro-chemical path of least resistance because the brain dense point. You never created an alternative pathway or a divergence, if you will. When that situation occurs, you have to create a new pathway, new neurons to think okay, good, he passed me, let's turn it up, let's go, or however you want to work with your athlete and reframe that. It's no different than adding a different capacity to balance on one leg. So you're going on an unstable surface. You have to get other muscles involved and fine tune them. But this is what we're playing with.

Speaker 2:

We're playing with physical properties that have to, to Brandon's point be retrained and it takes time, it is uphill, but what we are learning is he articulated so well and I saw this, you know, in his work with Sean and I have enough of an. I am no expert, but it was phenomenal just to watch the way he came into that cage. But real simple guys, we have to retrain the brain and it is hard as hell. But Brandon talked about observing it, being cognizant, self regulation, being aware of your thought process. Don't smash it, don't stop it, don't condemn yourself for the guy passing you and going. Uh-oh. No, we retrain that before the before he passes us, and that can be. It takes time, but that can be reconfigured into a positive experience or a motivating experience.

Speaker 1:

Well, let me ask you this, brandon? You, because you can't. With limited time and limited resources, you can't possibly train an athlete for every scenario, right? So typically, an athlete comes in let's take boxing, for instance Tyson Fury versus Francis Nningana. I think everyone, including myself, thought, okay, this is a gross mismatch. Why is Francis gonna? He doesn't have a chance in the ring, and I'm I'm guessing, I don't know Tyson Fury grotesquely underestimated him. So I would imagine the first round happens and Fury's like whoa, this isn't quite what I was expecting, but he never trained himself for that. To him, it was always gonna be easy. So when you're preparing a fighter, let's say O'Malley, you can't possibly go through every, every nuance that might occur. So, uh, cause you have limited time. So how would you approach it?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's it. That's a great question, because I see there being a few different strategies there. One could be you, you might, you might even never let the athlete or have conversations around. We're not even going to go there. We're going to build such a strong belief in ourself and if something happens that we didn't expect, we're going to stay focused on that. And this is just my.

Speaker 3:

I'm not, I don't know the science on this, I'm just speaking from experience and knowing it probably depends on the athlete. So that I see that as being one strategy is that if anything negative comes into your mind, we're going to reframe it, we're going to go to, we're going to flip it to something else, Like in boxing or an MMA. It could be you know that you have the power in your right hand to to knock them out with one hit. So just stay focused on that. Just, you know, completely embody that feeling. Another strategy would be to to go through those negative scenarios and then understand how you would deal with them. I think it's probably depends on the athlete. And again, this is just me speaking from experience. I'm sure there is psychology, there's, there's stuff that people actually have your real data on this, but I think both of those strategies could work. It probably depends on the athlete. I mean, what do you guys think?

Speaker 2:

Right, absolutely, you're spot on. You need the observation and how the athlete responds to given situations. Right, you're, you're exactly right. Stay focused. Understand acceptance too. You know and you work on that.

Speaker 2:

Okay, the plan's not going the way it needs to right now. So what, it's a fight the other guy's actually allowed to try to win too. You know, and we have to explain it, it's in the rules that the other guy's allowed to do what he wants. It's not always going to go as well, but to your point and what you guys have done so well, stay focused on the strong point. Okay, so somebody scores a takedown on Sean, who's an amazing striker and does have good jiu-jitsu. It's always underestimated, but he's worked his way through that, worked his way through that with Jan, got back up, got into good striking. So you are correct in the science and the truth is it's hard for us to measure for one. But to your point, man, it is very, very individual. Some people will embrace getting takedown when they're when they didn't want to as a challenge, right, and others are going to fall apart and panic. So how you handle each individual?

Speaker 2:

There are systematic strategies, but everything is a playbook. It's like Andy Reed's going to sit there with a card in front of him and there's going to be 200 plays on there and he has a game plan. But you see up, it's fourth and three. I didn't think we'd get to fourth and three. Well then, we're going to use this strategy. So you really, you know, brandon has his playbook and he may not run that play for this guy but run that play for another guy. So you really do have to get to know the athlete, but I think one thing that can help, and I'm sure is Brandon teaches so well. You know, he doesn't have to spend three hours with his athlete doing this, but he could teach his athletes how to do this when they're not with them, cause mental skill training can be done anywhere, anytime, any place, and that's how you conserve the time, right? I think those are some points that are that are of value.

Speaker 1:

I have a question in terms of oh, I'm sorry, brandon, go ahead. No, you get. Yeah, please go ahead. In terms of the mental aspects and how athletes and we're going to take fighting as an example or MMA fighters, who were previously considered not invincible but you would never expect them to lose Once they lose, they almost always become a different fighter. I remember I was a big fan of chocolate L when he fought Rashad Evans. I'm like he's going to kill Evans. Evans knocks him out. I'm like whoa, what just happened? And chocolate L was never the same fighter after that, anderson Silva. When Weidman knocked him out, silva was never the same fighter after that.

Speaker 1:

You see this pattern where it particularly has to be if it's a knockout, when a guy gets knocked out. I don't know if there's. I mean, maybe, tony, you could address the. Maybe there's changes in the brain, as in physical changes, or they're like holy shit, I thought I was invincible, so, but I got caught. I mean, everyone can get caught. How, I mean, how would you approach an athlete that suffered a loss like that? Hey, volk Volk was pound for pound Boy, isn't he pound for pound, best fighter in UFC? And he got caught with a leg kick. I mean, what are the odds of a leg knocking him out. That's got to do something to your psyche. So how would you approach that kind of athlete who was suffering from that type of loss?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's so much, has so much to do with how the athlete identifies themselves. Do they identify with this, them being undefeated, and that's where all their worth is coming from. Because, I mean, has anybody ever I don't know. I mean you know maybe, whether didn't like, you're probably going to take a loss, especially in MMA, and if, if the athlete understands, like it's like the.

Speaker 3:

Rocky thing. Right, it wasn't it Rocky, it's not you get knocked down, it's you get back up, and it's cliche but it's. But it's true. Like in life, we grow the most when we struggle, grow the most when we're confronted with basically being knocked down. And if, if the athlete understands that and they view that and they view themselves as a, say, you know, a martial artist, that's really about self discovery, self mastery, self growth, then that knockdown can be an opportunity to get better and that, to me, is something that that you want to install in the athlete early on. Great Right, so it's, do they, do they do again? Do they do they only carry themselves with this confidence because they're undefeated, or do they carry themselves with that confidence because they, they know who they are and they know how hard they work and they know that if they get knocked down, they'll get back up and they'll grow and they'll get better. That's that's really important and that's that's one of the things that I love about. Sugar is.

Speaker 3:

Really, early on in our relationship, we'd be talking about this stuff and I and this is actually I'm pretty sure this is what he was dealing with, this suspension and he said to me as long as I can look back and I don't regret anything I did and I know I'm giving it my all to be the best version of myself. I'll be good and I was like this kid's got it. Yeah, it's not about yes, it's about being a world champion and yes, it's about making money and, yes, all of these things like these matter, but it at the root, at the core of his, his being, I believe he he's pursuing mastery and that, to me, is a beautiful thing. That that I don't, you don't, always see in athletes, and I do think it can be taught and I think it can be cultivated, but it's, it's tricky. So that's yeah, that's that's kind of my how I look at that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's brilliant. It really is, because it's athlete identity. And one of the things you try to do in sports psychology is exactly what you said, Brian. Right, Build a resume. Who am I? What am I? Why am I that? Yes, I want to be world champ, but I'm also ABCD and E because I'm trying to be world champ. And then when that tough shot comes, you got ABCD and E to fall back on. Get back up and go try to be world champ again. You're absolutely right and that's spot on.

Speaker 2:

I think, Joey, part of it is that the athlete that was undefeated may take an identity hit and it could be the banister effect too, that once an athlete loses, everybody else thinks they can beat him, and that is part of the sport. I mean, right, the goodness in studies where the people perform better subsequent to watching a guy on film that lost as opposed to watching a guy on film, they're going to fight that one. But I love that concept because sport Brandon said it best he's a martial artist. Sean's a martial artist. If you're going to be a martial artist, you are becoming so much more done. I mean you don't want to belt, it means that you're. You are becoming so many different things to get that belt and you can fall back on them when you do trip up, and that's that's what you try to do in sports. Psychology is broaden that identity, build on it, but it can't be one single facet. I'm great at this, that's all I have. Otherwise you ain't coming back, as Brandon said. Yeah great points.

Speaker 2:

Brandon, that's spot on.

Speaker 1:

Although you might say, in sports in general, like our friend Julius Thomas, a lot of ex NFL football players, their entire identity is right and once they retired, they're, they're lost, they, they don't know what to do because that was their entire persona. Now, obviously, mma is different than the NFL, cause it's an individual sport, the sport versus a team sport. So, yeah, there's some interesting things going on. Like you say, I like, I like calling it, like you say, the banister effect. Hey, I broke the four minute mile and everyone's like whoa, I guess I could run a sub four minute mile now. So it's, it's kind of interesting how that works.

Speaker 1:

Brandon, tell us a little bit about your philosophy and training. Oh, mali, I know I mean Tony's talked to me about you know some of the work he's done with some of the fighters. I do a lot of research at the Institute of human performance, where Juan Carlos Santana is. He trains Gilbert Burns there and everyone has their own sort of interesting philosophy about you know how much cardio should they do? What kind of cardio should they do in terms of lifting weights? You keep it simple, you know. Improve general strength and power, or do you try to do what some people call sort of sports specific type movements. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I try to look at the human first. I really, I really believe that these guys are so different and as a strength coach, I think we can run into problems when we bucket, bucket, say everybody, that's in MMA fighter is in MMA fighter when you look at, let's just say, let's say sugar versus Gilbert Burns. You know, and.

Speaker 3:

I've never worked with Gilbert Burns. I met him. He's an awesome guy. His structure is different, his right Like.

Speaker 3:

I look at, I look at body shape and I look at either kind of start to bucket guys. I think of guys as being more like a gorilla or more like a kangaroo. And then you think of the qualities and you start to be able to see these qualities that guys have that dictate what they need in the gym. So Sean is a very rotational guy. He doesn't, he's not going to manage force, he's not going to control force well in the gym. He needs to do that.

Speaker 3:

But I believe if you give him too much of that it might take away from what he does innately well. So it's a it's a balancing act and there's a ton of nuance and that I'm fascinated with that as well. I also think in MMA there's so much complexity and there's so much other training that that strength and conditioning a lot of times can be this, the variable that can get that, can be flexible, right. And I do believe you want to have a plan and you know we're trying to build these physical qualities and we're trying to create physiological adaptation to make a difference. But I also think there's this trend to be over training and it's like you know, the law of specificity is real, right and progressive overload is real.

Speaker 3:

Why, I think in MMA, specificity is pretty much the sport, so it's grappling, it's jiu-jitsu, it's, it's striking and and strength and conditioning becomes this opportunity to fill gaps. But if we're, if we're overdoing things, if it actually isn't recovering, then I think there's an opportunity on the strength and conditioning side to make those adjustments. So, yeah, we showed you we've done a lot of traditional stuff. We've done a lot of, you know, deadlifting and squatting and pushing and pulling. But I think there's. I think one of the things that we've done well is being flexible and understand everything else that he's going through and being able to pull back, pull back when needed.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, and it's you guys, I mean, I think about this all the time. It keeps me up at night, right, especially with him. I care about him so much and it's like are am I doing, you know? Am I doing the best? Am I doing, you know? We? Hey, we won a championship. It worked, like. Obviously, it seems like what we're doing is working, but I'm still always trying to perfect it and and be even better, so, yeah, yeah, I love this man.

Speaker 2:

I really do, brent, and it's the sign of a pro not that I'm any, you know, arbitrator of judgment here, or but you said it best. So, every fighter first, you know they need comparable biomotor qualities to succeed, but they don't possess them the same. There are different species in that cage. This is not, you know, there are different species on an NFL football field. But there's a prototype for wide receiver, there's a prototype for offensive linemen, a prototype for running back. Generally there's variation. There's no prototype in the ultimate MMA fighter.

Speaker 2:

And you have sugar. You have Sean, you know, at his height, fighting as a bandit, and then you can have a guy five, five who's a complete fire hydrant fighting. They have a host of different. They approach things differently. Psychologically they approach things differently. They have one fights, lost fights in a different capacity. They have different recovery capacities, probably because of different amounts of muscle tissue, different fiber types, right.

Speaker 2:

So we can't have a standardized playbook, because Sean may have nine strong qualities out of 10 or eight out of 10. And you want to strengthen those two, whereas somebody else is in the same weight class, has six different qualities in which they sell and need maybe four more than Sean has right. So I couldn't agree with you more. The only time those standardized programs work is if you're forced to, and unfortunately some coaches are and I credit them. If you've got 10 guys and you have no option, you got to train them all at once. You have to have a pretty good system, because you can't have those individual. You know you can't address those individual qualities, but it's really great to hear you say that because people believe in their systems. They don't. Again, it's a playbook, like you know. One thing that made Bill Belichick great years ago. He's tanking now, I guess. But whatever, he didn't play a four three. He played a four three if he had the players that were a four, three defense.

Speaker 1:

If he didn't have a four three he went to a three, four.

Speaker 2:

If he had Randy Moss, he threw downfield. If he had West Welker, he threw 15, you know, 12 yards into the slot. That's what strength and conditioning is. We have 100 tools and Randy chooses the best to let him and he had Tom Brady.

Speaker 1:

Well, he actually changed the way Tom Brady's Without Tom Brady his record is kind of dismal to the eye. Hey, how exciting is it I think I just saw this that O'Malley's going to fight Vera in March. That's super cool. You got to be excited, Brandon.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I didn't even see if it came out, if it's actually been announced or not, but yeah, that's an exciting fight and I feel like that'll be a good one to promote. Cheeto is a tough guy. That first fight I'll go back I was thinking about earlier. When we talk about the mind and we talk about dealing with adversity. Well, that fight, Sean, his only loss was to Cheeto and the nerve, the side leg nerve, the prodigal nerve, got kicked and his foot went dead. And Sean, there was this big deal because Sean would say he's still undefeated. I really believe that he knows he lost, but in his mind he didn't lose because he didn't feel like it was a full fight, it was a fair fight, and that goes back to that turned into this big big thing and I think people, it's actually good publicity, but Sean's intention, I think, was really pure in that he didn't feel like he lost. So it makes for an exciting rematch, if you will.

Speaker 3:

You got two standup guys. I like that matchup for Shug, so I'll take a standup guy over a grappler. Not that Shug is not good on the ground too, but it's like, yeah, that'll do it by. Like you know, that's a different fight. So, yeah, that's exciting, man. It'll be a good one.

Speaker 2:

You know, by the way, I had and you can ask anybody. I said you know. I said I think this fight goes to. If Aljo does everything right, aljo could win by submission in a second or Sean's going to knock him out in a second. It was my exact word.

Speaker 1:

Sure, I remember you saying that, tony.

Speaker 2:

I said that's the way it's going to go. I said if Aljo gets everything done right, he could get something in. And listen, sean's good on the ground. When Aljo gets there he could be tough. But or I said Sean, I said it because I knew how and it looked good and he was getting that right hand and Sean was identifying it what he did so well. I mean, you just seen him getting better and better at what he did and what I love.

Speaker 2:

Though, just quickly, man, I don't know and it's not my business. You know Sean is usually hyper, you know more overactive or underactive, but ran to your credit, to the whole team's credit, to Sean's credit, that guy was calmer than an area rug on a on a gummy. Okay, he was just standing there before the fight. Now I don't know what was going on in his head, but I'll tell you this much he wasn't wasting any energy. It really, from a sports, psychology, psychophysiology perspective, it looked like it was going to look like he couldn't be any better prepared, and that's credit to you, him, the rest of the team, you know now I'll, joe is a dancer. I mean that is how he activates himself, it's.

Speaker 2:

You know he doesn't get, he used to get really nervous, but he calmed down over the years. But anyway, I had seen that, you know, just as just through the TV. So I wasn't, I wasn't at the fight, I couldn't get up and make it. But up in Boston, right, I'm Dean brother ready, but nevertheless really good. He was so, like you could see, and he said hey, yeah, I got the butterflies. I'm a little nervous. Who isn't? You're fighting in front of millions of people and it's for a title. But that's irrelevant to the fact that he really controlled his emotions and that moment so well. That was a really nice job, good job by the whole team, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm always interested in how fighters respond to like a first fight going into a second fight. So, for instance, Makhachev versus Volk. A lot of people, not a lot.

Speaker 1:

There are people who thought you know what Volk, if he got the decision no one would have you know protested to vehemently. I thought Makhachev won, but that's just what I thought. And when you approach the second fight, knowing that that's how the first fight went, does the person who won, do they change how they fight? It's like, wait a minute, should I go this way, should I change it? Or do you think of something else to do that might potentially benefit you, of course, potentially hurt you, because it's something new? So, with O'Malley losing the way he did against Vera, you know, with his nerve being deadened, do you? Well, I guess I almost have to brand and put you in the head of Vera. He's like wait a minute, I know this worked the first time. Maybe I should just keep doing it, vera. He's thinking well, o'malley obviously will be prepared for it. You know, how would you approach the guy who initially won versus the guy who initially lost?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a good question, I think it could get it.

Speaker 3:

It probably depends on the individual and it depends on the camp, it depends on the coaches. I could see it going both ways. I, you know, I think with someone like Sugar that is so good standing to me it's like you keep doing what you do well and you do your best to avoid scenarios that the other guy is likely to excel in. So I imagine Vera's going to probably try to kick his leg again and Sean has made a ton of adjustments in his preparation and his fighting sense there. So I don't really see that being an issue. I also I don't know the. I mean you would think that that would happen more, but I can only think of three or four times. I remember it happening. So the odds of it happening with the amount of leg kicks, I mean legs get chopped, chopped down right, and that's a, that's a huge weapon, but that nerve getting hit, it's got to just, it's got to be hit, just right.

Speaker 1:

It does.

Speaker 3:

I know it happened. You know it happened to Michael Chandler, I remember I feel like it happened to and I feel like there's another time it happened and then to Sean. So think of all the hundreds of thousands of leg kicks. So I don't know if that can be your strategy, but definitely attacking the leg, the leg can be right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So question two, brent, because this is what you do. You do a lot of things well and and Joey, he's really big on the mental side and he, his podcast focuses on that but you use really good psychophysiology training. You use, you know, breath training and earlier you mentioned and this is something that you're good at a lot of things, but you really have taken this to a great level. You talked about controlling nervous system, right and and and again, rightfully, about rethinking, reframing, creating new pathways, having, when a bad thought comes, have a reconstructed pathway there, go to it except a bad thought. But anyway, what I see you, you modulate physiology well. I see you often your athletes relax, close breathing. So what, just what's your strategy that you use a lot on breath technique? You know, is there any one given approach to vary that duration of breaths and and what's your intent with that? Right, so you say nervous system regulation. Maybe you can explain that even just to a few folks who listen what you mean there, if that's, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think so many people are just stuck in a sympathetic state.

Speaker 3:

And so right. The foundation of this is teaching people, empowering people to have awareness of that, and then to learn to shift themselves the other way. And right there I think we have this amazing tool that most people aren't even aware they have access to. And if I look at low-hanging fruit now, how somebody breathes, to me is like that's the big one, because I see world-class athletes that are at the top of their game, that that functionally don't breathe well, they're not utilizing their diaphragm, they're over-breathing, their CO2 tolerance is poor. So there it's like that's where we'll start. And then it's very individualized. It's how bought-in are they to that? If they're not that bought-in, then we've got to. You know, I've got to be kind of be creative on how I bring it in. So that could be, that could be, you know, the assault bike and we put we push, push, push, and then I'll time somebody, we'll get a hard-h strap on them or we'll measure something, and now the game, the goal, is to bring everything down.

Speaker 3:

After they've learned the tools, what I see is like, even so, much bigger than that is. You know, we look at flow-stating, we look at that science and that research is, I think there's, there's this intuitive intelligence, or there's this creative intelligence that we all possess that lies beyond our thoughts. It's it's when we're in the flow, and I look at breath as being the way we can. We can teach people to get there. I can teach presence and we can teach being in the present moment through the breath. So to me, that's the that's. The end game is is you're did the work, you have the skills, you're you've done all that. You have to do that. You have to possess the physical skills and the mental skills and if we can get people more into the present moment and create more flow state, to me that's that's what it's about.

Speaker 3:

So the breath is, it's a it's. It's involved in how we move. It's involved in stabilization Right. So we get. We get people out of using joints for stability and starting to use internal pressure. It's a tool to manage the nervous system, to ramp things up right when we want to be ramped up and to pull it back the other direction when we want to pull it that direction. Self-regulation, as I've heard you speak about getting people out of this stuck, distressed state. It's so powerful. So I have, I have a thought process and I have, I have a system, if you will. And then I feel like, as, as I'm working with somebody, I'm good at understanding which way to direct it Right.

Speaker 2:

Great and to your point. There is no more immediate way on earth to make a concrete change in human physiology than to change your breath. That you are right. It is the most immediate. What? First of all, you cannot. You cannot operate at a rate quicker than which you breathe. It doesn't work that way. Physiology is controlled by the rate of oxygen flow, right, and the rate at which that oxygen is distributed to the body. Slow breath slows down the rate at which we breathe. Take the oxygen in, it calms, it regulates to your point, it clears the mind.

Speaker 2:

You can't forget about doing any psychological skill training or mental skill training. If your athlete is hyper anxious and can't can't first do exactly what they you just said, you can't bring things back down to where you need them to be. Then nothing's going to work. So I couldn't agree with you more. Some people mock it. I got to tell you it is the best thing to happen to psychophysiology, training and sports psychology. I mean, breathing is as old as yoga. But my point is, the awareness about its efficacy has been really great and I know you emphasize it, watch, you train it with everyone and it works. And you're doing however. You're doing it and discerning what to do or not, do you're doing a great job with it?

Speaker 3:

Well, think about so, think about the, the sugar fight, the algeol fight. I think of wisdom embodied is wide action, it's non reaction, it's not being jerked right. It's like you know, you see this and you see people that get very jumpy and they're just. To me that's a nervous system that isn't managing the, it's not matching the demand. Okay, correct.

Speaker 3:

So Sean, sean is reading Aljo, he's picking up patterns. That again, it's the skill that he possesses, that I think really elite fighters do, and I don't even know if they know they do it, it's like they just have it and he's pattern recognition and you know Aljo throws out right, right, just gets out of the way and Sean and think of if he would have, you know if he jerks, if he, if he's overreacting, and it, to me, is not something that you can. You can pick up and people that aren't doing it well and you can start to implement strategies to teach them to be better at it, because there are good fighters that are right that they're just wired different and I just, I just think that if you can get a little bit better at it, maybe that little bit better is what makes the difference between somebody being at the top and never quite getting there, maybe becoming a world champion, I mean and in MMA like you could do everything right.

Speaker 3:

It's still getting caught. It's. It's. That's also what makes it so fun. But, man, if I was going to choose getting you know, putting an extra hundred pounds on a squat bar or teaching somebody to be less reactive and to manage their nervous system, I'm going to go that way every time.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yes, yes, yes. I mean let's get stronger, let's get stronger.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I think that I think that's where our bodies, physiological adaptability, let's, let's, let's increase their stress adaptability in that sense as well. But I think that the managing of the nervous system, the ability to match the demand, the ability to, to shift. That's, that's it.

Speaker 2:

In that, in that process, to exactly your point, sean reads only what he has to read because he's not anxious, hyperactive, overactive. Okay, he's got a quiet eye, all right. The anxious, hyperactive person left, right, left, okay, nope, here's the cue, here's two or three things he can do. I see it, whoa, and that's where that's, that's flow state. You're exactly right. So really good stuff there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, what that reminds me of is when, when, when I started, when Justin Gaichi started fighting. Initially he was a wild man. He would just come out and swing and swing and I noticed, as his career progressed he started to learn how to control himself. And I think Bruce Lee called it something to the effect of fighting is about controlled anger. You don't want to just be lose your mind and go crazy in the ring because you know you'll get caught or you'll make a mistake. So the idea of controlled anger or, or you know, achieving some sort of flow state, it's interesting because some athletes it takes a while to develop. Others I guess they're just good at it. I mean, it's, it's. It is very interesting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think it looks different in every person. What's the point? The more you pay attention to it, it's like you have an eye for it. You notice it in Sean. It doesn't like you, and I talked about this. It doesn't have to look like Sean, it doesn't, but it's. I think it's an authenticity of self, which is that's again, that's dealing with the self-talk and the narrative and pursuing this path of growth. I think that's a very valuable pursuit for all of us as humans, as athletes, is like really trying to. Who are we? I think that's a never-ending process. And then it's a don't waste energy. You could think of it purely as a from an energy perspective. If you're reacting to everything, you're wasting energy. That's being pulled away from your task, which is, you know, put your fist on somebody's chin. So I think it's learning how to match the demand and conserve energy, both mentally and physically, with that kind of work. Yep, exactly.

Speaker 2:

Energy conservation is vital in any sport and some people burn, you know, too much. Or, like you stated, you get them in their optimal state. And again, by the way, occasionally, I'm sure you've seen it some people under-activated right. They almost got to bring them up a little bit Like in MMA or boxing they give away three rounds, or in MMA they give away one round, and you're almost going in the opposite direction, where you have to mentally prep them and activate them a little bit more too.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I always like to say that attack and surrender can exist in the same moment, right, and then maybe that you could think of it as like that's like this spectrum, that people operate on different points. Right, it's like some people show their attack, but they still need to be calm. Right, you can. Some people don't show it, but they're still ready to attack. You can see it in the individual, but in a sport like MMA or really in any sport, someone needs to be able to attack but also have presence and have stillness. They can coexist. They can be happening at the same time. It just looks different depending on the athlete.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's cool, good stuff.

Speaker 1:

Well, Brandon, I want to be respectful of your time. We need to wrap up. Tony, do you have any final comments or thoughts for Brandon?

Speaker 2:

No, I'm just. I'm happy to know him, man, he's doing some cool stuff and obviously he's a big fan of psychophysiology, right, just how cognition changes the periphery. Everyone and it does, and we know it does. And, man, I can tell you, for better or worse, a simple electrical, chemical impulse up here is going to tell you what's going to happen right here. And you caught on to that, brandon, you're doing a great job with it and I hope more and more performance coaches and strength coaches see it to your point. It ain't just about throwing 500 on and proving you can squat it. It's what you become from what you squat it and how it will translate to who you are in your sport that matters. So congrats to you, sugar, and the team, because it was an incredible win and I look forward to just chatting with you and bat more you know ideas back and forth in the future. My friend, we appreciate you being on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Brandon, if you're ever in South Florida, please let us know. Treat you to whatever you want sushi and beer or whatever, I'm good to be.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I appreciate it, you guys. Yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

We're going to get you out here for our next week at our next seminar, right? I love that. Yeah, it'll be a good time, my man, all right, thank you, brandon. Go, brandon, go, brandon.