Sports Science Dudes

Episode 82 Ben Kenyon CISSN - Empowering Elite Athletes and Aspiring Leaders Through Purposeful Coaching

• Jose Antonio PhD

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NBA performance coach Ben Kenyon reveals the secrets behind his incredible 20-year journey in professional sports, working with teams like the Philadelphia 76ers and Portland Trailblazers. From embracing endurance sports to aspiring for a full Ironman, Ben shares how running became a passion and purpose-driven motivation a guiding force. Tune in to uncover how a clear purpose can transform commitment and push you to achieve personal milestones, no matter how daunting they may seem.

Ben Kenyon is a veteran NBA Performance Coach who has spent the last 11 seasons working in the league with the world's best athletes and coaches. He most recently was the Director of Performance for the Philadelphia 76ers. Prior to that, Ben was the Performance Coach for the Portland Trail Blazers for seven years. Throughout his 20-year career, Ben has learned how to focus, navigate, perform and grow personally and professionally in high-stress environments. These are the same principles he used to complete three Half Ironman races, two Olympic-distance triathlons, one marathon and multiple half marathons. As the ultimate hype man, he values boldness and outrageous optimism.

About the Show

We cover all things related to sports science, nutrition, and performance. The Sports Science Dudes represent the opinions of the hosts and guests and are not the official opinions of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the Society for Sports Neuroscience, or Nova Southeastern University. The advice provided on this show should not be construed as medical advice and is purely an educational forum.

Hosted by Jose Antonio, PhD, CEO of the International Society of Sports Nutrition

Antonio:

Welcome to Sports Science Dudes. I'm your host, dr Jose Antonio, with my co-host, dr Tony Ricci. You can find us on Spotify, youtube, apple Podcasts and Rumble. Our special guest today is Ben Kenyon. He is a veteran NBA performance coach who spent the last 11 seasons working in the league with the world's best athletes and coaches. Most recently, he was the director of performance for the Philadelphia 76ers and prior to that he was the performance coach for the Portland Trailblazers, and he did that for seven years.

Antonio:

Throughout his 20-year career, ben has learned how to focus, navigate, perform and grow personally and professionally in high-stress environments. These are the same principles he used to complete and this is pretty impressive Three half Ironman races, two Olympic distance triathlons, one marathon. I need to know what your time is for that, ben, so hold on Multiple half marathons as the ultimate hype man. He values boldness and outrageous optimism. One of the greatest things about Ben is he is one of the most positive human beings you will ever meet. I love being around him, always has good things to say and he uplifts, you know, everyone around him, so Ben welcome to the show.

Kenyon:

Thank you, I appreciate that. That that that bio breakdown was super awesome, super amazing, and thank you for having me, tony and Jose, really really appreciate it.

Antonio:

Okay, your marathon time, sir.

Kenyon:

Oh, you know it wasn't impressive, so let me give you this first, then I'll drop the time when. So I had to do my philadelphia marathon virtually in portland oregon by myself and at like 4 am in the morning before a game. So it was. It was cool because I had some friends, eventually like um, run with me on the race on the 26.2 miles and I think I ended up doing um, to be honest with you, like maybe 430 4 like, in that you didn't have the benefit of a large crowd running with you exactly I didn't have like that wave at the beginning where you're going like three minutes under the time you're supposed to be going and then you adjust.

Kenyon:

Yeah, I had everything plus the monkey on the back, so I had all the different challenges, uh, pretty much by myself and with some friends. I ran with one friend for 18 miles, another friend jumped on board around 22 and then another two friends um jumped on board for like that last 2.2 miles, which which is a whole race in its own.

Ricci:

Well, and let me just say this quick Ben, what are you? 6'3", 6'4". What's your height? I'll go 6'2 1⁄2 on a good day All right and you got a lot of muscle on your body. This is a big man running a marathon. This you know. This is not 5'8" 145. Yeah.

Kenyon:

I was definitely limping around a little bit. It was wild. I got a standing ovation from that practice that day.

Antonio:

You got a good friend who's willing to run 18 miles with you just for fun.

Kenyon:

No, it was wild. It was wild. You know what. He peeled off and ended up going to work and said he was he probably ran a little too much, but he was just fired up to be out there with me at what is like four o'clock in the morning when we started.

Antonio:

You know, that's awesome. I've always wondered. There are always those individuals who say I'm going to run a marathon or I'm going to do the Spartan race or I'm going to do a bodybuilding show. They're always saying they want to do something but they never actually do it, and I guess some people are just built differently. Some people will just do it. I've never understood the mindset of well, if you say you want to do it, train for it. What do you tell those people? Because I know you're one of those who actually you've thought about this process as to why some people naturally they're just self-motivated, and others you sort of have to walk them through it.

Kenyon:

Yeah. So the running, the full part about the running for me was when I first started working in the NBA. I actually got into running right around. Then the year before, I was in DC and I just started running like one mile. I wasn't a big runner, let's just say 2013,. 2012 wasn't really a big runner, but when I started running that mile for me I just started to feel better again. Being a strength coach, I was like dude, I got to be in better shape and I just wasn't in great shape. And then, fast forward, I get to work in the NBA.

Kenyon:

You know my partner in crime, todd Forcier, the guy I work with out there in Portland, oregon. He always ran three miles before every game. So there was this loop, this waterfront loop, and I couldn't keep up. And so at that point I was like, all right, I better figure out how to fall in love with this running thing or I'm going to continue to get beat every time we race and go out for this run, right? So my purpose actually helped me find or fall in love with running.

Kenyon:

I think a lot of the times when people don't commit and don't follow through on things is just because they don't have it attached to like a little bit of a purpose, and for me it was just to compete, be better. And so I ended up saying you know what, I'm going to do? A half marathon at such and such date, and I'm going to use these loops, these three mile loops, as like training sessions. So eventually it ended up being fun. And then I jumped off the crazy boat and started doing half Ironmans and started doing marathons, and so one day I'll do a full marathon or a full half Ironman or, excuse me, a full Ironman, and eventually be full crazy.

Antonio:

Well, there's one in Hawaii. You could, you could try. I did the half out there. That was my first half.

Kenyon:

So I did the half Ironman out there and I don't know if the full course is still the same like traditional course, because the um, what is? The volcano erupted a few years ago and it actually wiped out a little bit of the bike path and so, um, I think it's called like helo. I think it ended up erupting and knocked out some of the bike path, but I did my first one at Cola Coast, which was incredible. That's swimming out of this world.

Antonio:

Oh yeah, well, an ocean swim. I mean that's nuts. Also, it's not actually ideal conditions. It's warm. I mean you really want cold weather conditions to do an event like that. So it's brutal, but the salt water was perfect.

Kenyon:

Perfect, I mean. I was swimming with a school of fish, I was swimming with sea turtles, um, ended up having somebody swim over me. I found she ended up winning the, the women's side. So it was cool to kind of have, you know, a champion dominate me for a second and and that, um, but it was. It was a heck of an experience. Heck of an experience and something that I definitely would tell people to do. Um, I think the hardest part about it is, um, the, the pre-race jitters that you get right. It makes you do a little too much. I would just say less is more. You know, understand the cumulative effect, like do enough throughout the week but don't burn yourself out. You know you're going to end up having some sort of random injury at one point, and so I think it's important for you to actually just take your time and eventually get to the race and just do what you do, you know.

Antonio:

Now both Tony and I I mean we work with, as you know, we work at Nova Southeastern University. We deal with a lot of exercise science students and Tony and I I'm sure get the same questions about you know how you can be a strength coach in the NBA, nfl, you name it, and it's always a pro team, as if there's like all these pro team jobs. Tell the audience first how many years you've been doing it on the pro level with the 76ers, with the Trailblazers, and then prior to that, because this isn't like a job that's advertised on LinkedIn hey, looking for a strength coach. So sort of give advice to the student, be realistic and then tell them you know your journey, how you got to where you are in terms of the Trailblazers and also the Sixers.

Kenyon:

Yeah. So it's a tough job to game. It's a tough job to even get period Like it's. You have to be on the in crowd, right, and so I think networking is super important, and networking with network that's connected to the NBA. It's a very tight knit crew. They're only about 30 teams, right. So that means they're only about, let's just say, there's two positions, or two strength and conditioning, or three max per team.

Kenyon:

So you're dealing with 60 to 90 roles you know for the world right to now go after. And so now you're thinking about just percentages of you being able to actually have your resume seen. And then, on top of it, do you fit what they need right? Do you fit the mold of what that organization is looking for and that changes. You know it's like a wave. It literally one day everybody's kind of you know I want this type, and then maybe there's a coaching change or GM GM change or a whole regime change, and then they want a different type, right.

Kenyon:

So understanding what it is that you want out of working in pro sports, I think is step one, and then step two, padding the heck out of your resume when it comes to things that speak to team sports, team environment, working with a group of people, not just working with athletes, but working with a group of people, because that's something that I would even look at. You know, when you look at the athletic trainers, the PTs, the massage therapists, all other pieces that are outside of just strength and conditioning, like, how does that person collaborate? Right? That's very, very important, especially in that environment.

Kenyon:

And then the last thing is just, you have to be extremely passionate about the X's and O's of strength and conditioning, like the NBA player needs to be extremely passionate about basketball, the GM needs to be extremely passionate about trades and all the other business stuff that goes on behind the scenes, so on and so on, because now you're working with high performers and everybody has a role.

Kenyon:

And so if you're very passionate about your role, when the schedule gets a little wild, the schedule gets a little hectic, it's easier for you to just say all right, this is what I always revert to, even when I'm exhausted. I know for a fact I can do one, two and three when my eyes close, and typically those are the people that end up sticking there. I've seen so many people come in for about a year, two years max, and you know, eventually, kind of you know, exit stage left, just because they really weren't passionate about the X's and O's of strength and condition or whatever it was. Basketball, basketball, front office being a coach, it's just, you really do have to be excited and care about that portion of it.

Ricci:

So, ben, too, let me ask what was basketball itself always your target like? Because it was a a sport that you played, or or you always said, okay, I would love to do SNC and basketball is my sport. Or were you led there more by the contacts that you played? Or or you always said, okay, I would love to do S&T and basketball is my sport. Or were you led there more by the contacts that you had?

Kenyon:

yeah, super simple for me because at 13 I played basketball, wanted to play in the NBA, but I love the weight room, right.

Kenyon:

So I was introduced to the weight room maybe when I was in like sixth grade, seventh grade, and it was a part of my lifestyle period, you know.

Kenyon:

So that was something that I always enjoyed and so, fast forward my sophomore year of college, I realized there was an actual job that you could do and still be around sports. I was able to actually do it with my college team. My head coach gave me the ability to put together the strength and conditioning programs, so I would, honestly, I learned how to do it through personal training and then work with my team and then use that network to land a grad assistantship and eventually just said, all right, you know what? This is something that can be lucrative at one point, but I've got to start somewhere and get the experience so that I can continue to grow and connect with the right people and I'll land where I'm supposed to land. If I'm focused on just being the best that I know I can possibly be, which is always my goal with everything I do, it's just like don't aim to be a particular person, just literally try to be the best coach, or whatever it is that you're trying to do in that moment.

Antonio:

Now, when you're dealing with, obviously, the elite of the elite, when you're dealing with, obviously, the elite of the elite, when you're talking about the nba, yeah, I know, when students graduate with a, let's say, an exercise science degree, they, they have a notion of how people should be trained, whether it's nba or, in tony's case, mixed martial arts or you know, even just a cross-country coach. When you went through this journey of like, well, this is what I know, but now you're dealing with people, high-end people, was there a change in terms of how you viewed how you should train people? And let me just give you a short story. When I got out of school, I was like, oh, I know all this stuff and blah, blah, blah, I want to implement it.

Antonio:

Then you realize sometimes just simple stuff works, and not just simple stuff, but simple stuff that the athlete will adhere to, because otherwise sometimes you might be like, hey, this stuff is really good. You know, if you do it this way, it works well, and they're like, but I don't want to do that. So talk about, sort of, the nuances of. You have book knowledge, you're dealing with high-end athletes, so how do you navigate that?

Kenyon:

Yeah, the art form. What is it? Science and art and kind of putting those together. You definitely have to work on your coaching skills, your people skills, your soft skills. I feel like the technical stuff is more of like the hard skills that you know. If you do it right, you'll get the results that you need to get. But in reality, let's just say 15 players on the team, you're going to have about five to six that are like completely bought in, like I'm going to do everything you know, completely right, all the time. You're going to have another, let's's say four, that they know it's important but there aren't great movers. So they figured out how to actually be where they are today with just like pure athleticism. So they're going to literally do what you asked them to do, but they might kind of cheat a little bit. And then you're going to have the people that like they're there and they know they got to kind of check this box and they're going to give you what they they're going to give you, right. So again, everybody's doing it. But I think once you start to understand the type of athletes that you're going to have in front of you, you'll know how to kind of coach them up Right.

Kenyon:

So, again, understanding the science, understanding the technical things that you actually have to learn, is very, very important. Why? Because when you get those five to six that are like, dialed in, asking questions, wanting to know why are we tracking this? Why are we doing force plate jumps? Why are we doing? Why am I wearing this wearable device? Why am I wearing this tracking device? It's really important to now be able to actually share that knowledge. But I'm going to say you're going to have a higher percentage in your career, not just in the NBA, but you're going to have a higher percentage of those people in the middle that don't necessarily move super well, but they're great at their sport and you have to figure out how to continue to help them improve. And so that's where that art form comes in Again, understanding the science and then going out of your way to make sure that you know you fit your programming for that person, because maybe every squat isn't always going to get to 90 degrees Right, every bench press isn't always going to touch a person's chest.

Kenyon:

It's just understanding what is necessary for this person. And then the last piece I think is very important and something that you kind of talked about in your story is just removing your ego. Right, this is a service job, right, the job is to make sure that this person in front of me walks away with a result that they wanted coming to me, period, right. And so, if you're really in this space for service and supporting somebody else, regardless of your knowledge, do what you need to do to make sure that this person is actually that feels great, you know, walking away from you because, especially working in pro sports, the athlete is the person. They are the commodity, they are the asset, they are the person that the world is watching, and so you want to make sure that every time you step into that space to train them and they've given you permission to work with them you now give everything that you can possibly give, but sometimes you have to turn up. Sometimes you can turn down and just know. Time will give you the space to understand when to do it and when not to, and that's the one thing that I was able to embrace.

Kenyon:

I stayed open, I adapted. Autonomy is everything. Um, you know, when I first interviewed with the portland trailblazers the last question, um, they asked me jeff clark, a great dude. Um, he asked me. What did he say? Oh, he said he said what? What's your ability to adapt? Like? Are you available for this? This whole adapt or die mentality, like you know, since where you're looking at, like, if I don't adapt, I might not actually make it to the next game, to the next season, to the next, however many years, just because I'm so rigid on like, well, this is what it is. It's like no, no, kill your ego. Understand that this is a long gameplay, right? We want this platform, we want this resume builder to put us in a position so that, whenever this does end, I can continue to grow in the space that I'd like to grow in. So, again, I had that mentality, since you know the age of 13, or just like understanding that certain chapters will come to an end and how can I use the last chapter to propel me into that next chapter?

Antonio:

that's awesome yeah, tony go ahead just quickly.

Ricci:

I get some great points in there, Ben, particularly for young strength coaches, and just really quick what you said. It too because I see basketball players other than maybe a gymnast like a Simone Biles as probably some of the best motor athletes in the world. I mean the skill. You take a guy who's 6'9" who's? Moving like he's 5'8" 150. It's just really incredible. Or 7'2", Say again, I'm sorry.

Kenyon:

I said or 7'2".

Ricci:

Right, right, it's just amazing and they're incredible. But you know, know, I made this mistake too, one of always thinking immediately what we need to do initially. Right, we have this standardized protocol. That's good for everybody, it's not. But you, you said a point too. When I think of basketball, players is some of the greatest athletes in the world. Some people move really well at their sport, but in the weight room, boy, you, you got to make a lot of adjustments. I trained the world champ kickboxer, for example, that I wanted to kick everybody out of the gym when, when he was training, because he looked so bad with a weight in his hand. Right, it was all horrifying. And, by the way, we're talking a hex bar dead. That's not, yeah, but. But my point is, I think sometimes, right, we all make that mistake and assume and assume this athlete is one of the greatest in the world. They're going to be amazing at picking up a bar or doing some type of protocol to enhance their performance, and that isn't always the case, right?

Kenyon:

It's not, and I'll say, that's where your IQ, your EQ, comes into place, right?

Kenyon:

You really do have to work on your coaching skills. Because the second you see that you know within the warmup you'll do a front lunge or a body weight squat, and the second you see that you're like, oh man, like this person has terrible form but they can touch the top of the backboard, they do well on the court, but they just have terrible mechanics right. And so one part about that is, if you give that person something just like a basic strength program, their gains on the court are going to be drastic, right, they're going to be freaking out of this world just because, again, moving well is the goal, right, so we can stack on top of that at one point. But where they are, in that instance you really have to coach that up and know this.

Kenyon:

When it comes to pro athletes and I'm talking the best of the best, um, the progression of two to three weeks is like shrunken down to like a week, maybe day, right, just because the second that you actually get them, you know in that hex bar or or goblet squatting well, their body gets it and it just gets organized very quickly.

Kenyon:

And you can literally go from like goblet squatting 55, their body gets it and it just gets organized very quickly and you can literally go from like goblet squatting 55 to 65 pounds to like back squatting 225, 315. You know, within, you know two weeks. You know, just because, again, they are elite athletes, that I know for a fact um respond, um, very, very well. So it's, it's super fun to be able to actually see that. But you have to experience, you know, those moments to understand that, because a lot of people, a lot of younger strength coaches, you know they kind of stick to their program and you know now you're looking at the athlete, the athlete's looking at you and they're like, dude, I'm bored, and my body's actually telling me I'm bored, right, what are we going to do to challenge our you know, over an 82-game season.

Antonio:

You know the travel. It's just got to be brutal, absolutely brutal. Now, what's your philosophy and I would imagine this is individualized or maybe not in terms of weight training during the season, particularly on game day or maybe the day after? How do you adjust for that, when these guys, they got to be just tired all the time?

Kenyon:

Yeah, you know what? That's a great question, because every athlete's a little different, right? So I got to set you up and say that you have your high minute guys, which are typically the veterans, and then you have like your middle of the road guys who play maybe 15, 20 minutes. And then you have your developmental guys, the road guys, who play maybe 15 20 minutes, and then you have your developmental guys. They are like redshirt freshmen, they're not going to play a whole lot and you can pretty much, you know, set up the macro plan at the beginning of the year and just stick to it. Why? Just because they're not going to play. And if they do play, you just make a small adjustment but you keep it moving right. So with those other two groups, conditioning matters right. So the beginning of the season so like september, october, is typically like your pre-season time before you get ready for like your first section or your first quarter of end season. So my conditioning and the way I think about it is my training and conditioning is to prepare them for that moment, right For September, october. And then I use September October to prepare them for November, december, and then I use November, december to prepare them for January, february, knowing that we have an all star break coming up. And then March is typically mayhem, because you travel about 21 out of 30 days and that's regardless of what team you're on, from the Blazers to the Sixers. March was always just brutal. And then April you have like a little bit of a taper because that's playoff time coming up, that's the end of the season, and so if you break it down in quadrants, you look at it and say, all right, as I train this person, am I hitting the numbers that I need to hit? Again, we tested, what is it? We did mid-thigh pull for strength, we did our counter-movement jump for power and we also looked at asymmetries. And the big thing with that was like are we sustaining or are we improving as individuals and typically as a team? And so throughout that entire season, you would always look up at the chart every 20 games and say, all right, did we hit what we needed to hit when it came to like the global movements? And then also with the local things, because you do have injuries or you do have weak areas that you have to improve. So again, to get super specific, again the local exercises you're just working on whatever it is that that guy has chronically, you know, if he, if he's always rolling his ankle or has a hamstring issue. You're going to always kind of overemphasize those specific things, but you can also hit that with everybody, and so, again, it just all depends on where they are.

Kenyon:

And then after games, typically we would train guys just because we wanted to keep the high days high. So, again, a guy plays 40 minutes. If that's a lift day and they only lift, let's just say they play a decent amount. They only lift about eight times in a month. Right, that's twice a week sometimes. So maybe it's, let's say, six to eight times in a month.

Kenyon:

We would try to have the high day high and actually add the lift on top so that when they were off, the low day would actually stay low and that allow their entire nervous system to recover. They would do all the flushing, all the cold plunges. Obviously, nutrition plays a big part in it. So just making sure that we stuck to the schedule, just because they would actually be in pretty good shape, you know, by the time we hit mid season. So they were wanting, their bodies would actually need it to stay organized.

Kenyon:

I think about it as like a, a tune-up during a marathon, right? If you had that, those drink stations, and you had, like, a massage therapist there to help you out a little bit, or a PT or somebody there to help you out, that's the way I would actually look at the workouts. The post-game parties that we actually put together is just saying these are going to be tune-ups that allow you to actually continue to thrive, and each individual lets you know like, hey, we can go at it today. Why? Because I feel great. I know we've got back-to-back games coming up, but I need to pick up some weight today, right, or I need to bench press, or I need to do X, y and Z to actually feel good. But that's when you finally get a rhythm and you set it up correctly from September all the way to the end of the season.

Ricci:

So, ben, that's awesome. So the testing let's assume testing occurred, you know, just quickly in August you are able, in some cases you're able, to increase the quality. So let's say, mid-thigh pull right, count them as your jump and you're doing all. That Is the objective, primarily to sustain the qualities that have been driven in the off season, or you'll even see some improvements during the season with these athletes. For example, power production, pure strength.

Kenyon:

Yes, so we actually see improvement.

Kenyon:

Now, when you see the whole graph right, the whole nine months, 10 months, whatever it is, you're going to see a dip. Sure, typically is just like when we're close to hitting the wall, right? So those are the, those are the moments for for next year, right, let's plan ahead. Let's actually look and say, oh man, this is typically when we have a dip. Can we in the weight room do X, y and Z? Can we also talk to the coaching staff about, you know, about what we can do from player development, from just overall practice, to modify so that we potentially can miss that dip Again?

Kenyon:

Things happen. You can't. Everything's not going to be in your control. I just think it's all about having a sound foundation and then from there being open to adjustments that you have to make. But what I've always saw was at the beginning of the year, if we had a team jump at like 62 watts on average and then we had a team at the end of the year again, they might have taken a dip, but they actually bounced back and and finished off the year with again. You know, it can be three or four percent, but like that really does matter when it comes to longevity and absolutely now the um, obviously weight, uh, heavy resistance training plays a role in pretty much training every athlete.

Antonio:

If you take a simple sport like running, the sport is actually the training you run and then when you get on a track and you run and then resistance training is separate. Now basketball is a bit more complex because you're dealing with, you know, skill maintenance, skill acquisition. You can't necessarily or correct me if I'm wrong just play basketball to get into basketball shape, or can you? What's the conditioning aspect outside of the weight room that you do to get players ready? Because I mean outside of, I mean it's one of the few team sports where you got to play both sides. You got to play offense and defense. You can't just it's not like football where you get to sit around and rest half the time.

Kenyon:

Yeah for sure. So the best conditioning is playing basketball. So just to throw that out there, literally, to get out on the court, play basketball. Because you can't mimic, I'm going to use Joel. You can't mimic playing Joel, right, as strong as I am, as strong as you know, a 6'10 coach, that's 275. And bumping you, um in like a quarter court drill, like that's not going to get you in shape for bumping against that guy. Having to run, play offense, then come back and play defense again, and doing that for maybe four minutes or even 10 minutes at a time. So playing is the best. Making making sure that we, we play games, though that speak to like quarter court, half court, three quarter quarter or full court. I think that's where you kind of have to make your adjustments. And then, on top of it, when a guy wants to get extra conditioning, I love doing metabolic circuits. I feel like those are the best things to do because we now can tap into certain energy systems.

Antonio:

So again, um, what's an example of that. What's an example of that?

Kenyon:

yeah, good example is um half time you got 15 minutes right and we would actually have two vets come in and they would break out the rope and we would do the rope versa climber, um, bike jump rope and we would end up doing like 30 seconds on, 10 to 15 seconds off and go through that about four or five times and then pulling it back out. And the fun part about that 15 minute segment was those two veterans. If they would ever play during the playoffs they wouldn't play any more than, let's just say, seven to eight minutes. So we knew that was the perfect amount of time. But now, if you have the developmental crew right, we may do a little more mixed in with them playing. But we would always throw in something that was similar to again the ropes, jump rope, sled pushes, farmer's carries, but it'd be more timed and we would look at the times based off of what we would actually do on the court. So again, 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 35, you know, depending on where you are, where you work in pro sports or college.

Antonio:

Ben Tony. Does anyone ever like the VersaClimber? Do you know what?

Ricci:

I think it's, to date, one of the well. First of all, most basketball players could stay on the ground and still do it all the way. You got to get a real tall versa for them.

Kenyon:

Do you not? I'll say there's a couple of people that enjoyed it. It's my favorite machine. He loved it. He jumped on that thing so quick, and not just because it worked that sweat up pretty quick, right, I mean it's hard and everything's burning, but it worked the sweat up. Your knees felt good after you didn't exactly much, um, I'll say what's worse than the versaclimber is the jacob ladder. I don't know if that thing is now. That thing is brutal. Oh my, like you don't even you can't take a break on that.

Antonio:

No, no, it is brutal yeah, oh my god, hey, hey, I want. I want to do a quick plug of your book Climb. I just want to show it here. Interesting stuff here. In fact, my favorite quote, one of my favorite quotes only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly. Robert F Kennedy, great quote. You've had a storied career in strength and conditioning what inspired you to write this book. I guess that's part of your entire journey.

Kenyon:

Yeah, man, my nieces and nephews they are. They're right around 20. There's a lot of them, but, like the group that's around 18 to about 21, 22. And I just said you know what, I've got a roadmap for success for you and let me just put it in the book and we can have more conversations, you know, after if you need to. But, like, here's something that I know can help you out.

Kenyon:

And then that vision went from you know, those six amazing humans that I have as nieces and nephews to wanting to impact the world and saying, all right, well, I've definitely climbed some ladder or some mountain that I feel like is a successful mountaintop, right? Please make sure that you actually give this information back. And so that was my whole goal with this is just to give key points on what's necessary for you to grow and achieve continuously, right. I don't want you to just do it once. I don't want you to say like, all right, I'm going to try to climb this mountain. No, it didn't work out. No, I want you to really understand there's a process to this thing if you want to continue to have success in all areas of life. And so my big thing with this book is that when you read it, I'm giving you action steps after each chapter to make sure that you can actually put this stuff to use. Telling the stories and I love storytelling I can talk for days, but it's more about being the coach, right? I want to make sure that you actually have some tangible things you can take away.

Kenyon:

So every section foundation, growth and achievement has five different chapters in each, or typically five different chapters. Chapters in each, or typically five different chapters. And within those chapters, the things that I know speak to what was very important to me, like core values, understanding, like what was important to me during that time, right, what was important to me as an intern sleeping on the floor at University of Florida, is completely different now not completely different, but a little different now. You know, as a grown man standing here on this podcast and I just think understanding those core values keeps you focused.

Kenyon:

And then in the growth section, which is just that holistic approach to improving your mind and body, I've ran into so many brick walls and came close to burning out and burning out that you know those tools for meditation, learning how to pause, practicing, pacing myself, you know, removing that or turning down that ego of of. I need to get this today right. I need to have you know this right now, like that instant gratification. It's so important to figure out how to like turn that down. And then the last piece is just achievement. I think I've seen so many awesome young folks, older folks, win and have major success but not do a great job of leading by example, continuing to mentor other folks, continuing to actually be a mentee and learning themselves and putting themselves in a position to just continue to actually achieve again right. So I just think that book Climb is so important, not just for emerging leaders but for everybody.

Antonio:

What do you think, though? Because you know Tony and I deal with 18 to 21 year olds, so so they, their view of the world versus someone who's lived 30 to 40 years longer is quite different, and you know I always tell them. You know in terms of you know they ask well, what should I do when I graduate? And you know I tell people. You know you need a reason for getting up in the morning, you need a purpose, and you know finding that purpose is often often difficult, and and it might result and I want your take on this Sometimes it results from a severe setback, like something happens and you're like Whoa, you know there's a fork in the road and you have to decide. You know which way to go. Just a quick short story for me.

Antonio:

When I was this is after graduation and Jeff Stout and I were giving a talk at ACSM, and we got really quite a bit of negative feedback on our talk, because the crowd this is the 19, late nineties, maybe early 2000s they were very anti-supplement, meaning it wasn't even worth studying supplements, and I thought, wow, this is really kind of strange, we're at a science conference and this is really an anti-scientific stance, and that really propelled, jeff Stout and I to like you know what. We're going to go full bore into this. You guys are telling us to do X, y, z. No, we're going to do ABC, and we've been doing ABC now for two and a half decades. So it's weird how that.

Kenyon:

At a high level.

Antonio:

Yeah, so was there an event like that in your life, where it's like wait a minute. I think I view the world a little differently. We both can't be right. One of us has to be wrong. Did you have something similar?

Kenyon:

Yes, my entire life I've had people telling me I need to still play basketball, you're going to waste all those years of you training. You got to at least try to go overseas. And I was just like no, I want to do strength and conditioning. I know I can make money doing this at one point, but guess what? I have to start somewhere. And then the same thing as I continue to transition, doing what I do now with Climb Executive Coaching.

Kenyon:

You know there's opportunities out there, but I think a lot of people are always pointing to what allows them to feel safe, and there's nothing wrong with that, right? I think that that is that's them looking out for you. That's just kind of their energy. They're trying to show love, you know, whatever way they can. And a lot of people may have some sort of fear built up inside of them, but I think it's on you as the individual to make the decision and know this. Like you're not walking the plank, you're not stepping into a sea of sharks and you might be, you know, in real life and run into some bad people, but, like, guess what? Eventually they'll be out of your way. Right, put yourself in a good community of people that really do care about you and I promise you you'll thrive.

Kenyon:

I just had this cool conversation with a friend the other day. You can wake up, actually, like in this instance, we can all change our identities in the sense of, like, this is who I want to be moving forward, right, and again, I'm not going to do this, but, like, maybe I'm like, hey, I want to be a stand up comedian. Guess what? You know what I'm saying? Like I'm going to go out there and I'm going to get myself booked at some freaking, some happy hours, and I'm going gonna go up there and be a standup comedian. Right, and again, I may not have success, but I gave it a shot and now I know on my list, I can check that off when I'm 85, 90 years old. I can look back and laugh at it and be like man, I really did that and it didn't work out, but I really did that and I feel proud of myself because, again, I didn't allow the world to sway me.

Kenyon:

And again, I just think it's important, though, that you build a foundation, right, investigate a little bit before you do make a decision. Like, try to understand why they're saying that, because you know if, if the masses are saying a certain thing, you shouldn't listen and just kind of receive what you need to receive and then from there, maybe speak to the things that you know, like, hey, these are some definites, though, like I know supplements. I know this thing is about to hit and I want to make sure I'm ahead of it, because I found X research paper, I found this educational tool, I found this person. There was enough evidence that gave me the strength and the confidence to now step forward doing it. You know, again, when I was a strength or when I was a basketball player, I said I wanted to do strength and conditioning and it was as simple as like let me look online to see if there are jobs. Oh, there's jobs.

Kenyon:

Okay, like we can start right there right, I don't know about the pay scale, I can't jump right into working in Kentucky right away, coming from you know working in college, but but or excuse me being a basketball player in college. And so I think at that point is just continuing to educate yourself and so that you understand, you know the firm step that you're about to take is based off of this knowledge that I have, and then you just have to navigate you know the world around that, because it's not always going to be easy trying to get to that next spot, especially if it's something that's very popular.

Antonio:

How many years total trailblazers and Sixers did you work? 11 years total Total. And what's the average career of an NBA player? Average Two years, three years.

Ricci:

Wow.

Kenyon:

So people are focused only on the superstars?

Antonio:

Yeah for sure. Heck yeah. They don't realize that these careers are quite short. So did that go into your thinking about? You know, sure, people want you to play basketball, but you actually can have a lifelong career in this field versus, you know, a two to three year career 100%.

Kenyon:

I saw the big picture. I've been playing the long game forever, right, no-transcript. Or pro sports. Just know, like you have to have something that's bigger than just working in pro sports, because it makes it more fun when you run up against challenges in that space, because, again, you're attached to the bigger, the purpose of your life, versus just that one specific thing. Because, again, you know you asked about NBA players you know coaches, I'm telling you, like legit coaches, I would say on average last like two and a half years maybe, and and and and, like that's that's giving them like some love right there. Like I've seen some people come in and out and not even make it a full season. You know, um, and it's just because it's, this is a very attractive space, this is, this is a very shiny materials, shiny, everything right.

Kenyon:

And we're talking about work right now. Right, but do you have discipline outside of work? Like the hours that you have to put in and making it to the gym, making it to the bus, flying eight days out of 12, from Philadelphia to Chicago, to Houston, to San Antonio, to Milwaukee, to San Francisco, back to Philadelphia, like, are you actually available enough to wake up for every last thing that you're supposed to do, from meeting a player at midnight or meeting them right when you land at 2.30 in the morning to train, because they want to get off some steam, but they want to do it in a safe way and have you around, even though you're kind of exhausted, and you have to wake up the next day at 8.30 am to train another player. Right, like, are you really built for that? And the only way I feel like you're going to be built for that is if you have a purpose that's beyond just working in the NBA.

Kenyon:

Right, just working that one job, because I promise you it will break you at one point. It's just how you kind of put yourself back together and refocus back on that purpose is what makes it really really, really cool. Because, again, the people that have lasted or not lasted, but thrive, for you know 11 plus years or 17 years or 20 years, you know 11 plus years or 17 years or 20 years I guarantee you can go talk to them and they will tell you, like how that thing, the NBA set them up for so much success outside of it. Right, they probably talk about their families. They'll probably talk about other things that have nothing to do with that job, so that it actually gave them the energy and the focus to stay locked in, you know, during the season.

Ricci:

That's awesome. It's contrary a lot of times to what we think. Right, because just focus, eat, sleep, drink basketball, eat sleep, drink basketball or any athlete should just do that, and we don't realize what surrounds them too may be even more important for continued success.

Kenyon:

Yeah, exactly, and that's the part that I believe has allowed you to see the Hall of Famers great coaches that last a long time. Can they do it for bigger reasons than themselves when they're in the moment? Obviously, you have to make sure that you're dialed in, but there's something there, like I promise you. There's something there with each person that has had a long career working in pro sports that goes way beyond them.

Antonio:

Yeah, I think what sets you apart, certainly from other strength and conditioning coaches, definitely in the NBA, is your willingness to learn things sort of outside of that sort of small bubble. You're the only one who got the CISSN sports nutrition certification. That's not an easy test.

Ricci:

No, it is not.

Antonio:

Yeah, and really that's how we met. So this is sort of the final sort of question philosophy for you in terms of sports nutrition and supplements, what you do for yourself, training for something in terms of sports nutrition and supplements and then dealing with these very highly paid, high-end athletes who might have egos or super egos where they're like Ben, you know what. I don't know if I should listen to you about eating this way or taking this supplement. How do you deal with that with the athletes? And then for you personally, what do you do?

Kenyon:

Yeah, so early on, it's about building your reputation, right, so being consistent at something period, right. So every time somebody trains with you, they consistently need to be able to walk away and feel X right, they need to feel like they're improving they're getting better, so on and so on.

Kenyon:

So that's where it starts. As you journey on, because year after year, you get a whole batch of new athletes to work with, your reputation now precedes you in a sense, right, because they all know each other, right? Literally, it is a very small community, and so word gets around very quickly. So understanding that if your reputation is on the line, that means every worker that you put together needs to feel like a grand slam to you before you actually offer it up to them, right From working three to five exercises to doing a whole two hour regiment. It just needs to be something that's very dialed in and very specific to them. It just needs to be something that's very dialed in and very specific to them. And then, when it comes to leading by example, you have to embody greatness for your role. Like I told you, the NBA player is there to be a great strength and conditioning coach. So that means you should be caught reading new books. You should be caught at different type of conferences, from nutrition to sports science to whatever it is. You should be caught working out at midnight and somebody saying, man, this person's crazy about fitness. If people aren't saying that, you're crazy about whatever it is that you do. I'm telling you right now you ain't going to make it Just because the people that are crazy about whatever it is that they do, you will catch them in that space burning the midnight oil, and it's 100% guaranteed. Again, I'm not all about the competition and trying to compete with others, but if you really do want to work at the highest level others but if you really do want to work at the highest level, when a GM owner, a fan, anybody sees you, they need to be like man, like Ben I think he's training for something. Again You're like no, I'm just doing everyday life. Well, man, you're so dialed in. Why? Because I'm working with a hall of famer, like I got to make sure that I'm on my game, because if I'm not on my game, guess what they're watching. And if they decide to go in a different direction, again, that might be a part of it, might be on you because you slacked off right.

Kenyon:

We would always say this If you don't look the part in strength and conditioning, again, it doesn't have to be like looking exactly like me or another strength coach, but you need to look either strong, fit, something, right. You have to look that part, because they're watching. You are your own resume, right, you're your own billboard, and so, again, I just think, when it comes to individual work, it's very important for its overall health and being able to sustain, you know, 82 game season, nine months, 10 months, even 11 potentially of travel. And then, when it comes to players and building that reputation, figure out, you know, that one thing that you can start to be consistent with and then eventually stack on top of that. And so I always think, like, what does your programming look like? Right, because now you're serving others, sweet.

Kenyon:

What does your energy look like? Right? How are you showing up? Up, you know, are you a type of person again, you don't have to be mr big energy, like myself, and always, you know being mr positive, you can be focused and be dialed in. But like, how does that look in collaboration with an athlete?

Kenyon:

And then the last piece, which is very important um, how are you building a relationship within that organization so that the community continues to rep you, right?

Kenyon:

So, so when you walk out of the room, everybody else in that room can literally say, like man, workouts are dialed in, their energy is consistent work with this person, just because high performers are always trying to get better, and it's nothing against you, but they're always looking to improve one percent and and they do that with the people around them. That's helping them manage their business, their body and and like you've probably seen this before, where you know this, this, this boxer, this person's working with this one coach and then, out of nowhere, they just get a brand new coach. It's because they have the mentality, because they're like yo, I feel like, like I feel like I'm stagnant, even though this coach has probably kept them safe, injury free, and they're always looking for growth. And so if you're not doing that yourself, um, I promise you, um, it'll definitely um be the the detriment to your, your moment in that spot. And so just know that you always have to be growing if you want to be in a high-performing environment.

Antonio:

I have, if you don't mind. I have a philosophical question about strength and conditioning. Yeah, let's say you just get people with your background, you know, in terms of intellectually, this is what we know about strength and conditioning. Do you think someone has to play the sport in order to do strength conditioning for that sport? And the argument is well, they know what the athlete's going through. It's easy for them to relate. The counter argument is this I have no preconceived notions about how you should train someone, because I don't play the sport. So, whether it's training for the Ironman, you know, um, training an NBA player, training a mixed martial arts fighter, because there are, there are non-fighters that train fighters and and maybe it opens up and I don't know, that's why I'm asking it sort of opens up the way you view it, because you're not bound by. Well, this is how fighters have always trained, this is how basketball players have always trained. What are your thoughts on that?

Kenyon:

Yeah, so I'm open to both sides, like, if I love, I played, obviously, so it helps me really translate and transition exercise into movement and so it's not a complicated conversation that I can have with the athlete. But I also seen the other side of people. Just they never played a day in their life but they've been around it.

Kenyon:

You know, they're obsessed with trying to figure out how to get this type of athlete, so they play around with it. They may not play open gym, right, but they'll go on the court and they'll shoot a shot, they'll do a defensive slide, they'll do certain moves that that player might do on the court just to like fill it out. And so I think, ultimately, if you've played or you didn't, cool, but like, invest in whatever that situation is Right, invest in trying to, or be curious enough to try to help that person improve. And the fun part is like when you start to break down film, right, when you're looking at film and saying like hey, man, you didn't get low at all here, like this is why we do the trap bar deadlift. Right, you didn't get low at all over here. This is why we do the 90, the rear foot elevated to 90 or below, because this is the moment to actually use it right and and being able to have those conversations.

Kenyon:

I believe it can happen from anybody, but you really do have to be obsessed with that movement and then what it looks like to actually transition from the weight room to the court or wherever it is, to the mat and and that's where you'll find an elite coach just because I've seen I've had this conversation with other people and I've seen people that have never played basketball in their life and they should never shoot in front of people, ever Right, they can even barely pass the ball, but they're elite strength coaches just because they care so much about that athlete having success that they will figure out what's necessary for them to move better and and I think that's the game changer is just saying like you really care and you're obsessed about whatever it takes to help this person improve that is the best I've heard.

Ricci:

You know, just quickly on that ben. Immerse yourself in the sport and immerse yourself in the culture of the sport, because they vary according to the sport itself and and that's a huge help to the individual, whether they've played it or not you have to immerse yourself in it for sure to understand it 100, 100 and if you're not just know this again, going back to that obsession piece like you might need to turn up that passion a little more yeah right and again, if, if this isn't for you, sweet, sweet, but know that this will be short lived.

Kenyon:

Because, again, the NBA I don't think I've said this during this conversation. That treadmill is going at about 25 miles per hour and it might turn up to 50. Have an all day moment of travel practice workouts. You thought you had dinner planned, that got canceled and you now have to dive back into. You know all the work that you have to do, and then you have meetings on top of that and it's trade deadline. So you got to make sure that you're working with your emotions so that you don't really overdo it in certain areas. So, again, I just think that that, that slight obsession, that that energy to want to be curious enough, it really does have to be there if you want to sustain and thrive at the highest level.

Kenyon:

The goal here isn't just to get the job right. That's super fun, super awesome. The goal here is to actually have like to look back and be like, oh man, I helped this human being go from potentially just making five to 10 million in his career to making a hundred million dollars, surely based off of me helping him be available Right, and he was available during the right time. Right, there was a couple of injuries that happened and shoot, he's playing during the playoffs now and he never even played this many minutes during the game. But look at him, he's in shape, he's moving well. He's going to have to navigate this new playing schedule but at the same time, you're putting these people in positions to have so much success, which eventually shines a light back on you to say, oh, you've done a great job with your learnings, your coaching ability and all the different things. And again, I think that's where you get to check the box. But you do have to be a little obsessed and a little crazy about whatever it is that you do.

Antonio:

Well, I do want to tell people get this book. It's titled Climb 14 Proven Steps for Emerging Leaders to Grow and Achieve, by Ben Kenyon.

Ricci:

I'll be reading it this week during the hurricane, by the way.

Antonio:

You'll have time, Ben if people want to look you up on social media or wherever, where can they find you? If you have a website, tell the audience please.

Kenyon:

Heck yeah. So I'm at Ben Kenyon on Instagram, ben Kenyon on LinkedIn, pretty simple. I'm on those two channels a decent amount. And then ClimbEx, then climb executive coachingcom is where you can reach out to me. Or great day to climbcom is where you can actually go purchase the book. It's on Amazon, but I just have great day to climbcom as just kind of like the bio and just the layout so you can understand a little more context of what's behind the book. So those are the places you can come find me and you can also reach out. I'll tell you this like I pretty much respond to anybody and everybody, especially on Instagram, especially when they have questions about strength and conditioning, how to grow personally, professionally. That is my main mission, that is my main move. So I'll continue to be pouring into folks that way, regardless, for the rest of my life.

Antonio:

Well, ben, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Hopefully I will see you at ISSN in Delray Beach next year.

Kenyon:

Can't wait, can't wait, will it be there? Will the hurricane take that place?

Antonio:

out Luckily. Luckily that's on the Eastern side of Florida, so it should be perfect.

Ricci:

So actually, Delray may be in Philly with these winds, so maybe we'll see up there.

Kenyon:

I'm here for it. You'll see me there regardless.

Antonio:

Alright, thank you Ben, appreciate it. Thanks Ben, great stuff.