Sports Science Dudes

Episode 92 - Dr. Matt Frakes, Performance Nutritionist of the NY Giants

• Jose Antonio PhD

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Dr. Matt Frakes shares his experience as Director of Performance Nutrition for the New York Giants, focusing on optimizing player performance through individualized nutrition strategies and building trusting relationships with athletes.

• Breaking into sports nutrition careers requires networking, professionalism, and willingness to do grunt work before showcasing talent
• College and pro settings differ dramatically—pros have more autonomy and often work with their own nutrition and training specialists
• Athletes can build too much lean muscle mass relative to their skeletal structure, increasing injury risk
• Performance nutrition requires an individualized approach considering body composition, position demands, and training phase
• Nutritional strategies for brain health include omega-3 fatty acids, anti-inflammatory foods, and creatine supplementation
• Recovery modalities like sauna, cryotherapy, red light therapy and compression are widely used at the professional level
• Successful teams require strong interdisciplinary communication between performance staff, medical team and coaches

Dr. Frakes will be delivering the President's Lecture at the 22nd International Society of Sports Nutrition Conference, June 23-25 in Delray Beach, Florida.


Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Sports Science Dudes. I'm your host, dr Jose Antonio, and my co-host today is Dr Antonella Schwartz. She's of Berry University in Miami Shores, florida, so it's great to have her as the co-host. Our special guest today is Dr Matt Frakes, phd, rd. He's the Director of Performance Nutrition for the New York Football Giants, focusing on optimizing player performance and career longevity. He has a background as a former d1 athlete and he has extensive expertise in sports nutrition, supplementation, hydration and concussion recovery. You have actually a very interesting background. You played outside linebacker, I believe, at bowling green, yes sir in northwestern ohio.

Speaker 2:

I believe yes, sir there we go, not the one in kentucky. There you go, the only reason I know it is.

Speaker 1:

I got my master's degree at kent and I met a lot of people from bgsu and I'm like, yep, what the hell is bowling green?

Speaker 3:

and so I learned quickly you got your master's at kent. Yeah, I got it at kent. This is like such an Ohio world.

Speaker 2:

I love it, ohio world no matter where you go, you're gonna find Ohio, and you can't win funny.

Speaker 1:

Um, and then, briefly, you were at Notre Dame. You're a director of sports nutrition there, which is pretty cool. Um, and then you were at LSU, actually for quite a while, for like four years you were let me get an athletic, director of performance nutrition, and now you're with the giants, so yeah cool background moving around a lot, um, unfortunately, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, before we get into some of the more fun questions, I think I have students and I'm sure antonella gets the same questions who want to get into either strength and conditioning or sports nutrition, performance nutrition, and they have this idea that, well, I'm either going to do it in college or in the pros. And I guess, speak to the difficulty of how you even get into the pros or in college. Because when you have thousands of students graduating and you have a very limited number of slots, yes, would you. If you're the professor, would you say yes, I want you to do it. It's you know, these are the steps you got to do, or it's not that easy? What do you think?

Speaker 2:

uh, on the latter end it is not that easy as everyone thinks it is and it's not as clear and concise of like, okay, the direction of how to get into it. What is clear is how to become a dietitian, how to become a strength and conditioning coach, how to become a sports psychologist. That pathway is clear. But as far as to get into these positions, it is so difficult, it is so hard, it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be. A lot of it is a lot of networking, a lot of who you know, a lot of ensuring that you're showcasing the right version of your professionalism, and then also you as a person as well. Also, you as a person as well.

Speaker 2:

And then a lot of it is maximizing the time that you are as a student and starting the groundwork and, unfortunately, doing a lot of grunt work until you are afforded the opportunity to actually showcase your talent at the high level. So even even in the sense of showcasing your talent at a high level, um, you're still going to be doing some grunt work. So a lot of times you see, some of the practitioners think that they're going to get into this direction of being a director of nutrition or an assistant athletic director or in a leadership position, and they are done doing the things that are the not are, that are not the attractive versions of the position. It needs to get done regardless. So if something happens personally to somebody or you end up losing from attrition of staff due to, hopefully, promotion into the next phase in their career, you're going to be stuck with doing some things as well, such as the cleaning, setting up, organizing food service management, all that stuff. So it just all depends, yeah, but it's not that easy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've heard from some of the intern interns that have worked down here in South Florida that a lot of them were surprised, particularly on the dietetics and what they were doing with college teams and that, yeah, some of them even described it as I didn't realize I'd be a buffet manager. I thought sport nutrition was. I'm dealing with sports, the athlete and performance, and yet that's part of the grunt work, which is what you're referring to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah and doc. So here's the thing also, when you're getting into that position as far as that director role alongside with that is the you have to remember we are still changing the perception and perspective of our jobs this day. It's still fairly new and it's not as established as the others, such as strength conditioning right, so that's something you got to take into consideration as well.

Speaker 1:

I know you have a question, Antonelle, but I have another question.

Speaker 1:

Because, this is interesting. Sports nutrition as an academic field really is in its infancy. I mean, if you go back before 2000, hardly any colleges had had classes in sports nutrition. Now it seems like every college has classes in sports nutrition. So when I saw, when Chad Kirkzik mentioned you to me and I looked up your bio and I thought, wow, performance nutrition for a pro football team. Honestly, I wasn't aware of such a position existed, and so one do you find it with other teams? Is it just the giants? I mean, I hate to say it, but I'm kind of a Dallas Cowboy fan. I know it's embarrassing, I know it's all right, it's all right, we all love each other.

Speaker 1:

Maybe they need a performance nutritionist, I don't know so tell the audience you know about the performance nutrition position, as don't know.

Speaker 2:

So tell the audience you know about the performance nutrition position as it applies to the nfl, because I don't not many people are aware of it yeah, so actually, so actually one of so my colleague scott, is one of the founding fathers of the nfl rd, so, uh, one of the founding individuals. So actually they have a great dietitian over there already as it is. So you guys are in good hands. But uh, now here's the thing. So, like again, with um it being in this infancy as we're, you know, discussing and speaking about, even to this day, not every team has this full-time rd in the nfl. That's something that we're trying to also continue to advocate for, battle for and then also ensuring that the right caliber of the practitioner is in the position at the time that they are ready to be in that position.

Speaker 2:

A lot of times, these organizations, a lot of times these universities, will, unfortunately pick a practitioner and hire a practitioner to save dollars and not get the person that's best equipped for the job to really showcase all and maximize all that the position is supposed to be, and that's something that everyone is advocating for, because the pay scale also something that they're advocating for, because it's a fight as well.

Speaker 2:

You're still seeing some directors still get paid salaries that are not attractive at all whatsoever that $50,000 to $60,000 range.

Speaker 2:

Some are getting $40,000, just depending on as far as where it is.

Speaker 2:

Now the issue is with that is that when you're looking at that in alignment with the rest of your support staff who's getting paid above and beyond that, you see that you're doing as much work, if not more, because of how you perceive your job to be in comparison to what they're doing on a day-to-day basis, it has not reached that value of what it deserves to be, what you deserve to be paid for. But we also have to do a better job of showing what our job is and showcasing what our job is, advocating for our job and also putting into a understanding to those that aren't in our field those GMs, those owners, those athletic directors what it is to be a performance dietitian or performance nutritionist in that position as well, because they have a different perspective and a different perception because of what we put ourselves into in a situation or having someone who is young, that has not been trained uh, completely yet to take on that type of role and to know do you have a comment?

Speaker 3:

yes, um, I agree, and my husband played professional baseball, so they right, the organization had a, I think a couple rds that were pretty much stationed at the spring training, uh, like headquarters, the site, um, but, and the big league team, I'm assuming they got one too, but none of the minor league teams had any like rd intervention, like nutrition intervention, nothing. And I'm just like, wow, these are the guys that you're like farming to be your leaders and like, some of these guys are like malnourished. I mean they don't recover, they're malnourished, they don't even like you know. It's just, how do you expect to like for these guys to make it to the big leagues? Like, how do you expect to develop these players if, like, yeah, sure you, they have all the skill and they might have some weight room, um, coaching, but they have no nutrition performance coaching? I mean they're not, they're not consuming enough protein, they're not recovering yep, it always blew my mind.

Speaker 3:

I'm like wow, like some of your teammates could really use some help and it's so simple, like you could really make it simple, but they just didn't have anybody they trusted or anybody with that role or that job. And I'm just like wow, like what could their careers like, be or could have been right, if they were actually developed not just as baseball players but as like athletes? And it just was my. I'm like wow, like every team needs an RD. Like even if they just had you know one that floated around like everybody, they have a sports site that floated around to all the minor league teams, but no, like dietitian that came in and you know no nutrition intervention. I was like wow, like what could have been some of these guys if they just, like you know, packed out some, eat some protein?

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Speaker 3:

Well, what do you?

Speaker 1:

think I mean no, the story you tell Antonella is, I would think it's common. And, matt, you know this better than anyone. Do you think that's just an issue with young men who are talented and would say you know what? I've gotten this far, never had a nutritionist, never had a dietitian. Maybe my high school strength coach told me what to do and now you're going to tell me what to eat? I mean, do you have you run into that attitude that, let's say, at the college level, where they're like yeah, matt, we know, we know. But look, hey, I'm running a 40 and four two or four, three, and how are you going to help me?

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yes. So to this question yes, you are going to get that. You are going to get some egos. You're going to get some, just some personalities that are some very strong personalities as far as, and also young adults and kids.

Speaker 2:

Some of them actually had to survive on their own, or they are the person that's the leader of their household as well.

Speaker 2:

So they, to your point, they feel that they got it in the bag, that they have done what they need to to get to this point and no one else can touch them.

Speaker 2:

So they're going to keep doing what they're doing until an injury happens, until they get outperformed, until they're not recovering to manage their body for the next bout of activity. Because now the training has increased and also the sport practice has increased as well, and that's just scratching the surface, based on the intensity and tenacity of what do you need to do to compete and actually perform in a game itself at that level, and even compete at that level during game time situations. Their body can't handle it and because it can't handle it mentally and physically, then you run into a situation where they do it and they want to change, but sometimes it's too late. They've been out, they've been outcompeted for the position, so I'm going to beat them out that role. And then they start going to this downward spiral of not living up to what they were supposed, to, what they thought this was going to be in this role.

Speaker 3:

I have a question. They were supposed to what they thought this was going to be in this role. I have a question um, so what do you as, like the team, you know practitioner, what do you? How do you deal with those athletes, right, I mean, I I'm not gonna say but there's some big names out there that like 100 you know they're posting what they eat.

Speaker 3:

I'm like I mean he's in genetic anomaly, but like not everybody should be eating like that right. Like avocado water for breakfast every day, Like it's not really what's going to? Help you out for performance, like maybe for you it works, but overall, right, that's not what's recommended. So, like, how do you deal with, like you know, these big egos and these big like these guys know they're the best of the best and like maybe they don't want to change, but you know, like, what the science says?

Speaker 2:

So how do you deal with that? Behavior change is an art, um. A lot of times too, we lean too much into what we are instructed, as far as in the actual, in the literature and the research and then also in the book itself of what we're reading, right, um, and because we lean on that, um, unfortunately we kind of fall into our own concepts and our own biases as well that we teach the athlete and educate the athlete based on how we think is best for how we would go about it in that situation and behavior change. You can't do that. You have to put yourself in that person's shoes. Some of it you're not going to understand because you've never been through it.

Speaker 2:

But you have to be somewhat empathetic as well as far as what they're going through, try to understand as best as possible and work with them on making stepwise changes and strategic changes and actionable items and consistently meet a snowball effect of what you can do and they can consistently execute. A snowball effect of what you can do and they can consistently execute. That's why, you know, I go about it in a sense of we have to look at it in four different ways. What is their choices? How consistent are they making those choices, what's the environment around them being prepared to make those choices, and then also executing the timing of when things need to be done right.

Speaker 2:

So because of of that, that's something I go about in that fashion, to no matter what level that they're at, I have to meet them where they are, and then I have to also, uh, connect with them and be available as well, so that way they know that I'm consistent myself also have to live in that fashion, live in that way too, and and try to, even though I'm not competing at a high level at all whatsoever I'm nowhere near as gifted as these guys are but at the same time, it's more so of I have to also project and live a lifestyle that showcases that okay, hey, not only does he know what he's talking about, I'm seeing how he benefits from it as well, and they have to get to know me as a person also at the same time. And that's honestly what kind of leads into getting everything kind of changed in that fashion.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, yeah, I think, um, buy-in from the athlete is is critical and, like you say a lot, a lot of this is an art. Um, I always tell people who want to get into, I guess, sports nutrition or personal training, that I mean there's some science to it. But at the end of the day, if the client or athlete doesn't buy into your, what you want them to do, nothing will happen. So your background because you, like you said, you're you're not as talented, obviously, as some of these pro guys, but you have a background in it. You've got, you've gone through what they've gone through.

Speaker 1:

So the question I'm going to ask is really more of a broad question, because this is something I post in my sports nutrition class. I've always asked this let's say a triathlete approaches you and says hey, matt, I want you to help me with training and nutrition. The question I pose to my class is do you need to have done a triathlon to give a triathlete good advice, and do you need to have done a triathlon to give a triathlete good advice and, it's funny, it breaks 50 50.

Speaker 1:

Some people say, well, yeah, it's probably better you do, cause then you know what they go through. And the other half would say, well, actually, if you haven't done it, you might have a more open mind as to strategies you could use both in training and nutrition. When you're dealing with a triathlete same with football it's sort of like, well, it kind of makes sense, you've played it, but what about someone who hasn't played it? Would they have maybe different points of view that are useful? So this is more just of a broad question. I wanted your thoughts, and even Antonella, you know, pipe in, because this is sort of the argument you get into, because you can't have played every possible sport, but you can help a lot of athletes, absolutely so.

Speaker 2:

I'm on the direction of. You do not need to have played that sport in order to be a benefit of someone's career, life or anything right. You do not have to have been the person to have gone through it to understand. I personally even have the best people in my life that have been impactful for me as far as as coaches, mentors, whatever may be have not walked in my shoes at all whatsoever, um, or have not played the game at all whatsoever, or have not been in the environment I had to overcome and grow in at all whatsoever, and that's fine, that's okay.

Speaker 2:

What makes it, as far as a situation to work that have the best interest and impact on that athlete is that one. You have built the groundwork for that foundational and that relationship with them so that way they can trust what you are providing and they know that you have their best interest as far as to heart. That's the biggest thing already as it is. So that's one part. The second part is that it's not just being knowledgeable about the information, but it's how you convey the information as well and to the point, to how they are understanding that information so that way they can apply it consistently every day in their lifestyles, right, or their training modalities, or when it comes time to compete.

Speaker 2:

All that comes in different times of where it takes time to spend with that athlete. You have to spend time with that person to understand how they're thinking about those situations and also their pain points throughout the course of their day that may interfere with them making the right choice that's conducive to performing optimally or something as far as that's best for their rehabilitation or recovery. What are those pain points throughout the course of your day so that way you can make that, uh, that that come to fruition of the outcome that we're seeking for. All three points right for performance, rehabilitation, recovery. Whatever may be in a situation that you're in, so you do not need to walk, you do not need to be the be the professional athlete that they are or were in order to make an impact. It's just about how you carry and conduct yourself around them and also the relationship you built with them for them to actually want to execute what you're asking them to do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance right, like I don't think there's just one black or white answer to the question, because I know a lot of people who, like wicked smart, could tell you the textbook front to back but could never convey it, could never actually work with like a clinical population or with like an athlete, because, like it's just you know, kind of gatekept in their head because they don't know how to beat it or they don't have the people, skills, the humility, whatever the case might be.

Speaker 3:

And then on the other side of the spectrum, there's people who might have played the sport, might have played it professionally, but are horrible coaches, but just because yes like, just because they played the sport, they're like entitled coach and I want to be the best and I need the head guy position, or like I mean you see it all the time in nutrition and fitness, right? I mean you see, uh, somebody has, there's a personal trainer, they have a baby and all of a sudden now they're pelvic floor expert. Are you like, should it be more physical therapist for like that kind of you know you lose a bunch of weight and now you're a weight loss expert, are you like? No, no, there's like this super broad spectrum. So I agree, I don't think it's one way or the other, and I mean it can be dangerous to, like you know, believe it's one way or the other.

Speaker 1:

Moving over to nutrition for football players. This is interesting because obviously the most well, I don't know if it's obvious, maybe to me it's obvious it's the most complicated. Team sport, more so than baseball, sorry, antonella. Team sport more so than baseball, sorry, antonella. So, um, you have so many positions and the movement patterns are different and also the nutrition might be would be slightly different. For instance, who does the most pure sprinting in a game? I would say cornerbacks and wide receivers. Would that be correct? Pure sprinting, okay, yeah, well, it's certainly the most in terms of speed velocity, yeah, yeah, who does the most backwards running?

Speaker 1:

Probably cornerbacks and quarterbacks, right. So the strength and conditioning would be slightly different based on those needs. But also, what about the nutritional needs? Are you? This might be sort of an odd question, but are you allowed to touch? I don't mean physically touch, but touch the nutrition plan of a superstar and because you have.

Speaker 1:

Every team has like three or four players. You're like, do not mess these guys up, they're the franchise, whether on defense or offense. Uh, versus everyone else, who sort of you know? I guess I hate to use the word role players, but let's say I mean we all know quarterbacks more important, and then it sort of trickles down from there. Um, will you, as the performance nutritionist, work with them, sort of giving general advice to everyone, or will they come individually to you and say, hey, matt, you know I'm not recovering, I need some help, you know, etc.

Speaker 2:

Etc yeah, so let's, let's go back. So I just left the health and medical summit, right, uh, for the league. Now all my colleagues are in the same situation. Um, meaning that the reason why I took this role was the trust and the added value that I can provide to each player individually. Meaning that I can go about it my way, however I see fit, in order to help and support that player. So I can be a lot more individualized in my role here, based on who they're working with, because a lot of these guys and I learned this quick as soon as I got here they have their own individual practitioners or teams that they work with, and it's not just about who you know, but one your reputation better be solid. It better be solid. That's one thing.

Speaker 2:

The second thing is is that when you meet with them, it's not about you having all the answers and solutions. You're going to have to also work with solutions that you may disagree with and that you may need to implement in some way, and how you optimize their performance when it comes time for your touch point to occur right, while including their belief, while including what they're doing and their team is, including on their day-to-day habits, especially during the game, because some of them have their daily routines. That it's the risk and reward scenario you wanting to prove yourself right and have them execute what you tell them to do. When it comes to even simply like, ok, I'm giving this guy, I need to give this guy 35 grams of sodium bicarbonate, because they're 113 kilos. I need to do an all-in-one bolus in order to get that. No, it's not going to work because you have those GI issues you have to take into consideration. You have also, have you been implementing that at all during practice? So is the gut even capable to handle that right, that intervention? So that's something that you have to consider as well.

Speaker 2:

So, with that being said, yes, I've, I've come across that. These superstars I've already came across that, hey, this is my, this is my guy, this is my girl, this is my chef, this is my physical therapist. I got to work with them too. So you have to be able to be collaborative and have an interdisciplinary approach more than just with your team. That's one thing I learned as well in this, in this scenario. In college, we controlled it all. Right, we controlled everything because they we were with them. More often, we were with them in the off season here, I think I've been able to have quicker relationships with some of these guys. I haven't even met some of these guys yet because of the fact of one, reputation and two, the ability to.

Speaker 2:

I'm an open book, I'm open ear to. Whatever works for you works for you. We're going to execute whatever works for you as an individual. I don't care what I feel about it. I'm going to tell you what I think about it. And if there's actually some sort of evidence backing that, and if there's not, you got the information. But if that's what you want to continue to do, hey brother, we're going to end up implementing it. It's okay, that's okay, we'll make it happen. So, yes, I have the opportunity to do that, um, and then also, you're going to see more and more the more the veteran is in this scenario, the more likely they are more dialed in and what they're doing day to day, but also who they're working with, because who they're working with if it worked for them and is something that it can, building that helps them get to that point. So they've been working with somebody that they feel has given them longevity in their careers and that they want to continue working with them, no matter where they go.

Speaker 1:

What percentage of these players have their own, let's say, chef or personal trainer, or nutrition? Do most of them, or just the superstars, or how does?

Speaker 2:

that work. Man, honestly, I feel like I'm naive, to the point, because I'm still so new in this world right now and if I had to make a generalized assumption around it it's probably going to be inaccurate. But I will say that I do think in some way, almost every person has their own person because if you think, if you think, if you think about it, their agent has connected with them somebody as well at some point in their career that they still bounce ideas off with, especially in the offseason, like a lot of our guys here, like we maybe have three to eight players that train on a consistent basis, depending on where they are right now, if they're traveling, and all season all that other stuff, if they're getting other treatments done, everything right, that's seen. That building that I've been able to build relationship with, that's a small percentage of the team. That's a very small percentage of the team that utilize everything as far as day-to-day and off season.

Speaker 2:

The rest of it we have to work with them remotely. So we're talking to them and we're saying, okay, who are you working with? Okay, what is the plan? So that we can have a better idea before they come to us in our hands. What have they been exposed to in their training and then also in their nutrition and what they're doing on a day-to-day basis, so that way we know we can do a better job of putting in, putting them in a in a condition, in a situation, at this stage of training, at this stage of the season, based upon what they've been exposed to leading into this point.

Speaker 2:

So, and that's, and it's it is very hard. I'm learning that you're, that's the most challenging part you're ever going to have in this job, because everyone's all over the place. Oh, it's a large percentage that has their own people, own philosophies. Some of them are fasting, intermittent fasting right now participating in ramadan, all that stuff. Some of them are doing a ketogenic diet or anything like that. So we have to, we have to be knowledgeable to the point of that and also be willing to work with those people while respecting their choice of what they want to do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I've always had difficulties between college and pro um. I've worked in the college setting and right the control you have throughout the. I mean you're programming the off season, you are whatever doing all the from the training room strength and conditioning um. You have a lot more control and then, once they write their pros, they have a lot more autonomy and people go home for the off season like being married to, like a pro athlete right, we were never in the same place and where he played was not our home, so we would go home for what? Six months out of the year and you know you have a whole different training staff and like whole different people. And like the strength coach calls and checks in, or the nutritionist calls and checks in, or somebody calls and checks in, but and they have like online programming and whatnot.

Speaker 3:

But like my husband didn't do that, like he was like yeah, no, he had his agency had a, had a facility, and he did what they did and they would call chicken. How's it going? He's like, oh good, I'm like not doing what you told me, but I'm doing what they're telling me, right? So like I've always wondered, like being on the pro side, how difficult that has to be, because I mean in strength and conditioning, to me the offseason is the most important time of the year, like that's where you are, that's 100% right.

Speaker 3:

I'm assuming it's the same for dietetics is that is the most important, that's the crucial time of the year and, like being with the team, I can't imagine not having control over that time. Like that is tough and like that is a long time, and I just imagine the difficulties that you have to face with them and you'd be like, you're almost like the cleanup crew. Once they come to you and you're like, and I got to fix everything and we don't have time and they've got to peak, and just it's a mess.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I've always thought about wow, that's gotta be tough, is like can't have contact or not contact, but control over the offseason yep, I started january 31st here and I'm not used to not having the full team in the in the area, right like not having a a physical contact point with them, right. So this has been the most. This has been the biggest transition, because I've had to adjust how I approach to support this team and support these players, um and but it has been a great challenge because I had to look at as an individual more so than as a. Okay, everyone is at the same stage of their training and at the same stage of their body composition at this current moment, based upon what they're exposed to and I know what they're going to be exposed to. I don't know what the hell they got going on right now unless they tell me what they got going on right now.

Speaker 2:

It's a complete different job.

Speaker 3:

Yep, yep, I can imagine.

Speaker 1:

Let me ask you this what is your general philosophy as it applies to someone to say, hey, matt, how would you define eating? Well, I hate the term clean, but eating clean.

Speaker 1:

And also, you know, for a sport like football, any any strength power sport, what are the, what are your recommendations vis-a-vis supplementation for these kinds of athletes? Because oftentimes when you have guys who are between 220 and 300 something pounds, I mean just getting good calories in could be an issue. So do you have a general philosophy that you try to, you know, edify athletes on?

Speaker 2:

Oh man, I hate this question because my mind goes one way as the practitioner, where it's like I don't generalize anything. I can't stand generalizing anything. So my head is like, okay, what are they doing right now? How much lean mass do they have right now? How do we collect that body composition information? How much air variance is within there? I've got to consider what they're doing in this stage of training. What are they doing as far as day-to-day in their schedule? What are they doing as far as day-to-day in their schedule? What are they doing?

Speaker 2:

as far like all that stuff is playing in my head right now, as you're asking that. So it's like how about this?

Speaker 1:

let me ask you a more specific question, because this is a strength conditioning. Coach is often asked can an athlete put on too much lean body mass? Let's say oh, that was quick.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yes let's get into it, you, let's get into it, you ready, let's get into this. So, all right. So what I'm starting to learn, and I didn't realize this and it made me change about how I go about everything as well. You used to hear all the time that it's all about putting on much size for the individual, getting bigger, stronger, faster, as much as possible to play the game, or stronger, faster, as much as possible to play the game. That is wrong. It is incorrect. You're actually putting more stress on the actual demand that they can handle and you put more stress on a body, as far as from a physiological sense, than what they can actually do as well, based upon a position that they're playing. Some of them are put in positions that are not successful because you're trying to put on an arbitrary number of lean mass based upon a population average, right, and everybody genetically is different. They're different. So, and and their makeup of what they're, they're of what they currently are at this stage in their, in their age group, and then also the stage of what they've been exposed to in the sport and also training, is different. So if you put on too much mass, the wrong time, depending on what is being demanded for them to move on that field. You put them at risk for injury right For a soft tissue injury, for a fracture, whatever it may be, all right, depending on what they're being exposed, what they're consuming as well. So, yes, you can't put on too much mass on the individual. That's what we call. As far as something along the lines of muscle to bone ratio, correct, do five way fractionation. That's something that I've been. I was exposed to a couple of years ago that I started implementing with my LSU players at the time because I was in control of the target weights, because I was in control of the target weights, so it helped me identify better a target weight of what to set and guide them to an ideal target weight and to just understand their development as well, what stage they are in the development to, to get to that point of what the player needs to be at to perform at that level for that particular position, based upon our schematics, of our team as well, because there's certain, for instance, a defensive, a defensive end in the edge rushing right, completely different the scheme of what, what the coach of defensive coaching staff is going to have for, uh, the demands for that role, the amount of snaps that they're going to have, depending on the offensive scheme that we're going against.

Speaker 2:

You need to have that body type for that individual and also depending on where they currently were, you have to take that consideration. That edge rusher they may need to be a little bit. You know, between 245 to basically 255. So that way they can maneuver, have a quick, have a nice little shoulder to hip ratio, so that way they can maneuver, have a quick, have a nice little shoulder to hip ratio, so that way they can bend a lot easier, be more fluid as far as on that as well, so that way they can get to the qb and be disruptive on the play. But that defensive end may need to be a little bit more sturdier, stockier, be able to feel double teams, be able to feel that and be able to make sure they can take on that as well. So you need to be probably around that 285 mark.

Speaker 2:

But if that person doesn't have the skeleton to hold that mass, you're going to see and ask why are they not available? Because they don't have the frame to hold that and to move based on the demands of what's required of that position and basically against the opposition that they're playing against as well, for, basically, force absorption too, that's something you got to take into consideration, but just for those two positions alone as a self. So, yes, you can't put on too much lean mass on an individual, especially as you're seeing, like you want. There's always that defensive back or that wide receiver that they're saying they want them to be like okay, we had a guy come in say just arbitrarily, like okay, we had a guy come in say just arbitrarily, like okay, we had a guy come in, he's 165, 165 pounds, soaking wet, right, and because he's 165 pounds soaking wet and six one, oh six one, six one 165 pounds, six one, right, but you want this player to be.

Speaker 2:

But he's a five-star recruit and you want this player to be 185 pounds before he touches that field, basically for camp, right, and they came in in January, right. I'll be honest with you, it ain't going to happen. You're going to start seeing that player not be available. If it does happen, you're going to start seeing why are they in a training room so much? Right, because you put on 25 pounds on this individual in year one when you should have did more of a thorough assessment and seeing that the guy may only be able to hold 175 at this point of freshman year Until his skeleton grows denser, until he maybe gets taller. You never know, it may happen. If that don't happen, he's not gonna be able to hold more lean muscle mass, right? So that's something to take into consideration.

Speaker 2:

But that's a common thing that you always see. You're always seeing soft tissue injuries with that, because you're seeing that we are requiring somebody who has a small skeletal weight to put on so much lean muscle mass. And it may look good, you may think it look good, but you're seeing that they're always hurt. They're always having some lower extremity injury. They're always having some soft tissue situation. They're always having some hamstring strain right, having some hamstring strain right because they just have too much mass at that current moment to to move and they and their body is trying to get used to moving on that field with that weight and it hasn't been able to, hasn't been able to keep up with the demand of it you know, what's interesting is?

Speaker 1:

um, it seems like there are players and, and if we focus on quarterbacks, there seem to be quarterbacks that don't ever get hurt. Well, eli Manning how many?

Speaker 1:

years did he play and he got beat up a lot and he kept playing. I mean, he never got hurt. And then you have guys like uh Garoppolo, who you know he was constantly hurt and um, and you can't even go by physique. You can't just look at someone and say, hey, well, they look pretty strong. Uh, there's a reason why they should be hurt. Is there any? I mean I don't, you can't really collect controlled data, but is there anything that can predict, particularly the quarterback position? Who? Who seems to have a durable body and who seems to be hurt a lot?

Speaker 2:

man. That that is.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot of question yeah, it's a lot of goes into that, because then also you also want to have an offensive line that can prevent that quarterback from getting touched. That's the goal, like that's another part of it too. Like how much, how much exposure to contact that quarterback is actually getting on a day-to-day basis. He better not be getting any at all. That means we failed at getting the right offensive line. So that's something as well you got to take consideration. But other than that, no, it's hard to say Honestly.

Speaker 2:

It's hard to say Because more so for physical durability and also playing style of that quarterback. So if they're a more mobile quarterback, they're more at risk of getting contact. And then also, if they're at more risk of getting contact they don't have, if they're, they don't have the mass to absorb that force is being displayed on them on a consistent basis, right, then they're at more risk of getting hurt, correct? But if they are, say, they are a bigger, denser QB with a lot of lean mass, but they can also be a little bit mobile and they are willing to give up their bodies and to get those extra few yards and they're going to get touched and get hit. But because they're so solid, that's like, for instance, like Cam Newton yeah, he'll run, he don't care, he'll run you over. He is also bigger than linebackers so you kind of remember that.

Speaker 2:

So that's something to consider, um, but no, this is too early to identify. But then also it's all about. It's all about how to scout and also the schematics of the office coordinator and what they demand of that QB as well. So it's a lot to unpackage with that question. I'm sorry I gave you a vague answer, but it's a lot to unpackage with that question.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's just a fun question. It's something you talk about over a beer, so I figured I'd ask you.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, If you got hours, we can talk more about it.

Speaker 3:

I would say this stuff is so like multifactorial, like I wish there was one thing you could pinpoint and say yes, if they have, you know this must much skeletal muscle mass or the ratios. Right, like they're probably going to get hurt less. But it's so impossible, right Cause even you said like they're, like it even comes down to like team dynamics, what the coach wants, positions Like if they're if the whole line is you know protecting them. So I like if they're if the whole line is you know protecting them. So I mean it could come down to so many different things.

Speaker 2:

So I agree, multifactorial. And just if it was, if we had to answer that question, you know longevity, we'll be, we'll be here for hours, typically like because then we would, we would rebuttal each other. Well, what about this? And okay, well, what about if they had this at that time during the time? Like you just don't know, it's like I don't know we'd be billionaires, so correct.

Speaker 3:

I tell my students that the answer to a lot of these questions is always it depends. And they get so mad at me. They're like well, if this is this, what do you think?

Speaker 2:

I'm like depends like, like well, is this happening? Are they in a condition? Are they there always? It depends um. Okay, matt, we have just a few minutes. I want to be respectful of your time. Well is this happening?

Speaker 3:

Are they in that condition? Are they there Always? A?

Speaker 1:

difference. Okay, Matt, we have just a few minutes. I want to be respectful of your time.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's all good man, we can go more hours if you want to. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3:

We're good combos, good one.

Speaker 1:

Okay, cognitive processes in football or traumatic brain injury vis-a-vis playing football, really playing any contact sport you know, boxing, wrestling, whatever At the team level, how do they deal with minimizing concussion-related injuries? Dietary supplements or nutrition advice you give to athletes who maybe minimize some of the brain trauma that occurs with contact? Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Well, the only true way to stop a concussion is to stop playing football.

Speaker 1:

They ain't going to do that.

Speaker 2:

They're not going to do that Right. So in the physical sense, we've taken parameters around limiting contact exposure, full contact, also with the guardian cap association that we have as well, that it has limited, as far as you know, concussions, full blown diagnosis of concussions and also controlling, just again, that contact exposure and hours during the preseason time, because that's when you started seeing the most of it, because guys are fresh, bodies are fresh and they're throwing their bodies and they're trying to make a name for themselves, so they're smacking everybody where they can with all their might, right, so that's been controlled a lot better. Okay, that's one part. Second part is on the nutritional side of it. Is you want to one put that body as far as in mind, in the ideal state to where, when it is exposed to contact, it's able to return back to basically homeostasis as fast as possible, correct, and it's able to manage and control inflammation as much as possible. So that way, when a contact was to occur, that inflammation that occurs from it as well, it doesn't happen as fast as one and then also was able to clear out at a good rate for the second portion of it, and then also that there's enough energy available within that brain to actually handle and manage that physical response of that contact too. So, from a sense, from my end of it, on the nutritional side of it, I'm always going to look at, okay, what are the omega-3s that have been consumed, what are the anti-inflammatory, what's the anti-inflammatory agents and diets that they have been ingesting as well, consistent basis.

Speaker 2:

And then also, what's do they have that just consistently available within the body? And that could be simply as seeing, okay, what's their HDL, ldl, omega-3 index scores, all that stuff correct? Does everything have what it needs as far as to utilize ATP accurately and sufficiently and communicate sufficiently? Does it have that available? Is pre-attain available in a saturated state as well, not just a point to where they can perform optimally, but then also, do they have it to where they can think and process and cognitively function the way they need to for the demands of the game? And then also, what are they doing as far as on a consistent basis, like, what's their sleep habits, what are they putting anything foreign in their body that is causing more inflammation drinking, smoking, vaping, things like that that's creating a um, a state of not being able to handle basically that type of physical contact as well. So that's a large part of it to it. But as far as the nutrition side of it, our thing is that we're trying to control their day-to-day choices of what they're consuming, the antioxidants they're consuming, the omega-3s that they're consuming, and then also, are they having enough as far as creatine available to handle that as well? Because you're going to have a lot of subcontact blows right when the subcontact state within that you're you're going to want to, if the body and mind is in a in a better state, you could potentially have some prophylactic measures in place to where the body in the mind is saying, ok, yes, this blow has happened, ok, I have what I need to basically work through this process that's occurring right now.

Speaker 2:

So in that way I'm not just fully, basically just damaged, trying to figure out what is going on mentally, aka, with the concussion happened. That's a simple way to put it.

Speaker 1:

Are there athletes that refuse to take, let's say, omega-3 fatty acids or creatine, even though you know it's good for the brain? In general it's really good for anyone's brain, but particularly contact athletes.

Speaker 2:

Yes, intentionally and unintentionally, there are some athletes that just forget and their compliance is just not up to par, like you'll hear that with some of the practitioners that their compliance with what they're providing is not always there, because they just are not in a good touch point to give it to them, or they're just not, they don't care to take it, or two, they refuse to take it because they got information saying that, okay, well, creatine is going to cause me to have a cramp, um, creatine is going to cause me to have a soft tissue injury. I had a lot of I had a lot of hamstring strains because I was on creatine at that time. Um, so that's something that you also have to take in consideration too. So you have some players that think in that fashion. But that's what we're there for. We're there to help educate them, provide the best that we can for them and then also debunk anything around them that is not up to par or standard of information that they get on a day-to-day basis from other people.

Speaker 3:

Are you actively recommending that they take their creatine? Are you upping the dosage post concussion? What does that kind?

Speaker 2:

of yes, yes, so, um, while these guys are away right now, obviously I'm um, I am promoting the maintenance stage of ensuring that they have uh enough, and that could be based upon their fat-free mass that they have as well.

Speaker 2:

I know in the literature you're seeing five, ten as far as within there consistently and that's all you need, um, but I'll argue that maybe you need to actually go within the amount of fat-free mass that they have, especially with this stage of their, their off-season training, um, because the processing that's taking place as far as for them to actually develop in this offseason phase, and then also what they're going through mentally as well, because they may have some individual things that they're going through in the same fashion.

Speaker 2:

So, with that being said, so, having a maintenance dose and a maintenance exposure of it, but then also kind of when they're getting here now, ramping up a little bit more in that first stage, especially when contact is into play within that first week. That's just how I go about it Within our first week. I've always been a big component of kind of increasing how much creatine they're getting. So if they're getting, basically you'll see, typically maybe someone that takes like only five, maybe they'll go up to 20 to 25 within that, just for that first week until they're getting used, and they're, they're mentally and physically getting used to that bit of contact because you know football, you got to build a callus to that exposure that you're getting physically. Um, now that's one part. Now, when they, if they were to experience basically a uh concussion I've seen, I honestly went up to even 50 grams, truth, truth be told, in a sense on a daily basis, did you?

Speaker 1:

say 50, 5, 0?.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I said 50. Yes, even went up to 50 grams. In a sense of that, within that stage, of that, within that first stage of the return to play until they're starting to get exposed as far as to being returned, and then going back down to that maintenance stage, that's fascinating.

Speaker 1:

Um 50 grams, do you? Yes?

Speaker 3:

I'm assuming it was a big boy like a yes, alignment that makes sense, I mean offense alignment. Okay, that makes sense 50 grams for like a three, four hundred pound man. I could could see it. I probably yes.

Speaker 1:

Okay, one final question, and then I'm sure Antonella has one on sort of non-traditional or sort of different modalities, and I know you're a performance nutritionist but you've been exposed to this at a college level, et cetera. Uh, cupping, sauna, cold water, immersion those types of modalities are very popular, quote within the fitness community. Yep, what's their role at the pro level?

Speaker 2:

yep, we use it as well. We use rpr also, um, we use also, uh, there you have to get comfortable with the ids that's being implemented and rather, you agree or not agree, that's a big component of it. Like, for instance, some guys they want to do NAD and they get it through IV. So that's a part of it too that you have to be comfortable with and be you know, have that conversation with them on to do it safely. They all play its role. Uh, sauna, heat therapy, red light therapy, um, and also, yeah, acupuncture, hyperbaric chambers have those two, um, and then also just, uh, the cryo chamber. We've I've seen and utilized, seen utilizing those, having a protocol in place for that and then trying to think of what else that's been and that's been the most is the sauna in the steam room, and then also palm trash therapy, cold tub, heavy puncture, real light therapy, hyperbaric chamber. That's been the most I've seen so far.

Speaker 1:

Seems like it would be fun being a professional athlete huhonella you could just do all these things and work out.

Speaker 2:

Talk to guys like matt and get advice. Yeah, uh, yeah, hopefully I don't give you wrong advice. So antonella.

Speaker 1:

Have any final questions for matt?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I would love to hear about the interdisciplinary approach that you potentially you guys utilize in your in the college setting. I've seen a lot of like a lack lines and like they shouldn't?

Speaker 1:

they should be blurred.

Speaker 3:

They should not be black and white or cut and dry. So what does that look like in professional football? Because, right, when you're talking about concussions, I'm athletic trainer, cscs, so I'm thinking, like, ok, like rehab, what does that look like? Of course, implementing creatine, I would want to talk to my RD and do it together, it together, right, like what does that look like for my athlete? But I don't, like I don't see that too often in the college setting, um, where, like, the AT talk to the RD about creatine, because maybe the AT doesn't even know about creatine or maybe they think, like it's a steroid or something crazy, right. So what does that look like for you guys? Um, and if you give advice to programs like, what's the best way to like, blend those lines?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I've been fortunate enough to work with programs and practitioners that are willing to have that approach to everything. So, with that being said, in the pro level right now, honestly for me it hasn't changed. Like we communicate about everything we have, we go through the injury report, um, from the past, of touch points, of what needs to be done, even from my role, based upon, okay, what they're doing, their time they're coming in for their sessions and then also communicating on how to also prevent potentially to undergo that same condition later on. Uh, like mr soft tissue protocol or bone fracture protocol, like Mrs Soft Tissue Protocol or Bone Fracture Protocol or anything like that, right. Or Concussion Protocol, right. And that's one part. Second part is working because I'm under the performance staff, so working directly with our Director of Strength and Conditioning and our Executive Director of Performance on what stage we are in our training program, what stage we are in our practice program, in our practice game as well, and what is the itinerary for that practice. So in that way I can ensure that I have the right things available for the players to consume at that time, to give them the best conditions to compete, perform and adapt to the environment that's being placed on them, especially in the situation of their training. Right, you want to get the most out of adaptation. Then also, there may be some guys that again, may have already maximized the amount of lean mass that they have. So now we're trying to, you know, see if we can do anything that we can to minimize not completely blunt, but minimize like a hypertrophic response in that situation to manage and maintain that as well, especially if the strength staff is changing the modalities of their session based upon they can't do the same thing because they, uh, the current stature, how much mass they have, um, and then also working hand-in-hand with the coaches on what is the practice game. So, and then also, ideally, what they want to see, uh, basically on their body composition. Since I'll control the target weights, I'll control the weekly weights, what they want to see for that player's body composition, for that role that they see that player playing. That's that's another part as well. So I play a role in each one, um, and we all communicate well together and we ensure that we're all on the same page.

Speaker 2:

And obviously you have to, because you have from college to professional. The margin of error is much smaller. It is much smaller, it is much smaller, and that small margin of error will get you fired. So that's something that you have to consider as well. In college, you don't have as much, you know, stress on that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it is stressful because you lose, you get fired, but you have some leeway because those players are adapting and they're in the early stages of development. So they get away with McDonald's and Wendy's and things like like that. Outside of that, that you don't want them doing, but they do because that's what they, that's what they know their entire life, and they're in that early stage of their their lives where they can handle that stuff and it doesn't haven't picked up yet. Um, so what I recommend, though, for the different organizations, and also especially in college, the better integrated you are, the better the camaraderie and community of the locker room. So that's one thing as well. If those players are very intelligent and they're smart yes, they're young but if they know that the trainer doesn't get along with the strength coach, the strength coach doesn't get along with the dietician, and they see that disconnect and they're getting different advice from different everybody else, the locker room was going to reflect that as well. So that's something else to take in consideration. I've seen that before happen, unfortunately.

Speaker 3:

Do you think the responsibility falls on the clinician sent to like kind of bridge the gap and, you know, like foster an environment of like good camaraderie and connect with each other? Even like on not just like an academic level, but on like a personal level, right, like hey, let's grab dinner, let's you know yes.

Speaker 2:

so you're going to see, there's a reason why in these football buildings you have the foot soldiers, basically the directors of the support staff and the support staff that's on, that's next to the locker room, and then upstairs you have the administrators and the coaches right.

Speaker 2:

So just even looking at if, if you look at it in that perspective, that's very important because those, the support staff members, are the ones that gets access and direct contact with the players consistently and at their most vulnerable state as well. So that's it's very important. You guys better be on the same page because you're also getting them at a time to where those players can be vulnerable with you because you don't completely control their playing time and they need somebody they can, you know, connect with about certain things as well, not just on football that the coaches control their playing time. So the coaches will give them more playing time if they're in a better state to actually perform well and be available. But that's also up to the support staff. It's more important for the support staff to get that done and see that through.

Speaker 1:

One last thing I want to mention before we sign off. Dr Matt Frakes will be giving the President's Lecture at the 22nd International Society Sports Nutrition Conference, June 23 to 25 in Delray Beach, Florida. Matt, I don't know if you've been to Florida lately, but Delray Beach is absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 2:

The hotel. I cannot wait, yes.

Speaker 1:

Right on A1A, just walk over to the beach. So I think everyone will be excited to hear your lecture. So again, appreciate your time coming on the sports science dudes. It's been a great show and certainly learned a lot, and probably have to get you back on again. And although I'm not a giants fan, I am now, since you're there, there we go, now we're talking. I hope the new york giants have a successful season. I know the nfc east is a tough division. It's, it's, it's, it's brutal, I mean so. So you got, you know what you got. You got your work cut out for you. You know, and I'll be thinking about you during the season.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, my friend. I appreciate you. This is an honor and I'm looking forward to June 23rd as well. I still can't believe it myself to be able to give this presentation, so I'll make sure I won't let you all down. I'll make sure I'll get further in depth of everything we discussed today.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you, Matt, Appreciate it. Thanks, Antonella. Bye guys.

Speaker 3:

Appreciate y'all.

Speaker 2:

Bye-bye.