Sports Science Dudes
The Sports Science Dudes cover all the cool topics on sports science, nutrition, and fitness!
Email: SportsScienceDudes@gmail.com or Exphys@aol.com
Hosted by Dr Jose Antonio
BIO: Jose Antonio PhD earned his doctorate and completed a postdoctoral research fellowship at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. He is a Co-founder and CEO of the ISSN (www.issn.net), and Co-founder of the Society for Sports Neuroscience (www.neurosports.net). He is a Professor of Exercise and Sport Science at Nova Southeastern University. Twitter: @JoseAntonioPhD Instagram: supphd and the_issn
Co-hosts include Tony Ricci EdD FISSN and Cassie Evans MS RD CISSN
Sports Science Dudes
Episode 101 - Small Buffers, Big Edge with Eli Shannon PhD
Ever wonder how a legal buffer can shave nearly a minute off a 40K time trial? We sit down with freshly minted PhD Eli Shannon to unpack the science and the tactics behind sodium bicarbonate, from the lab to the start line. Eli explains why an hour-long ride is anything but steady state and how surges, climbs, and late-race kicks amplify the value of buffering hydrogen ions when it matters most.
We dig into the numbers: an average 1.4% improvement for trained male cyclists, translating to about 54 seconds saved. Eli breaks down practical dosing that busy athletes can use—why 0.3 g/kg remains the benchmark, when 0.2 g/kg might suffice, and how to convert that to simple grams for a 70 kg rider. Delivery is everything, so we drill into hydrogel systems designed to reduce GI distress, and we set a clear timing window of 90–120 minutes before the gun. You’ll hear how blood bicarbonate rises, dips early with fast pacing, then stays elevated enough to support decisive efforts in the final kilometers.
Race-day logistics matter. We walk through smart top-up strategies between heats or double events without overdoing sodium. We talk heat, hydration, and why you should practice your plan before it counts. And we set the record straight on “lactic acid,” highlighting how lactate is fuel while hydrogen ions drive acidosis. We also touch on beta-alanine’s intracellular buffering and how it pairs with bicarbonate in sports defined by repeated 30–240-second surges.
BIO: Eli Shannon recently successfully defended his PhD at his viva voce in Exercise Physiology, Metabolism and Nutrition at Edge Hill University, Ormskirk, UK. Eli's research focused on the effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on prolonged high-intensity exercise performance and metabolism in both normoxia and acute normobaric hypoxia. Prior to this, Eli completed his bachelor's degree (BSc, Hons) in Sport and Exercise Science and master's degree (MSc) in Exercise Physiology at York St. John University, York, UK. During his time in York, Eli also spent four years playing full-time soccer against professional academies at the i2i International Soccer Academy. Eli's research interests primarily focus on enhancing exercise performance through nutritional and physiological interventions.
Welcome to the Sports Science Dudes. I'm your host, Dr. Jose Antonio, and today my special guest is Eli Shannon. It is Eli, right? That's correct, French. Yeah. Eli. Yeah, that's perfect. In fact, you just successfully defended your PhD in ed at Edgeill University in Ormskirk, UK. I hope I'm saying that right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's uh Is that correct? Orms?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Now you uh when did you defend?
SPEAKER_02:Uh it was the 19th of November. So just uh just a couple weeks ago. So two weeks ago to yesterday.
SPEAKER_00:So now you gotta what finish writing and then you're out of there?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, no, I've uh submitted my corrections. Uh so um yeah, it's just a matter of sort of uh getting it finalized, I think. So hopefully uh yeah, hopefully.
SPEAKER_00:Are you applying for industry or academic jobs?
SPEAKER_02:Uh at the moment, uh academic, yeah. So uh trying to trying to get something in academia, um, but also you know, keeping sort of uh trying to you know really be open-minded at the moment, just uh in terms of uh positions everywhere. So pretty keen to to do something. Um yeah, whether that whether that is um yeah, open to pretty much a lot of things, really.
SPEAKER_00:In the in the UK, Canada, USA, New Zealand, or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Prominently uh in the UK right now. Um, so yeah, really uh, you know, I want to make a career out of it, or at least start it in the UK, um, you know, since I've done everything here in terms of all my sort of studies. Uh so hopefully find something. Um yeah, just go from there. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, just a little bit about you for the audience. Uh Eli's research focused on the effects of sodium bicarbon ingestion on prolonged high-intensity exercise performance and metabolism, both normoxia and acute normal baric hypoxia. Uh, prior to this, uh, he completed his bachelor's degree in sport and exercise science and master's degree in exercise phys at York State John University, York, UK. And during his time in York, this is why he went to the UK, if anyone's wondering why he left Canada, uh, he spent four years playing full-time soccer against professional academies at the I2I International Soccer Academy. And his research interests uh mainly focus on enhancing exercise performance through nutritional and physiological intervention. So, Eli, thank you for coming on this podcast. Um, you're the expert on sodium bicarb, right? I mean, ain't too many experts out there. So here's the question. Um let's see. Uh I was familiar with sodium bicarb, but actually, going back probably the 1980s and 90s, I'm not even sure if you were alive. So the primary issue with it obviously was um GI distress. So I guess the first question is um for your for the study you published, in fact, let me pull it up real quick here. Uh I lost your study. Um but it dealt with sodium bicarbonate. So the question is what was the question you were trying to ask and why the focus on the 40 kilometer cycling time trial specifically versus a 5k, a 10k running the 400 meter track.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, um definitely uh a lot of different sort of uh you know reasons. Um mainly basically uh was driven by sort of like the if you like to say the gap in the literature um regarding like the lack of research um uh in but investigating sodium bicarbonate on sort of the prolonged durations. You know, we know it's very it's effisk, its efficacy is well uh studied in the short, high-intensity boats, uh anywhere from one to ten minutes, uh given that um those boats you know focus on sort of non-oxidative energy sources predominantly. Um whereas you know, endurance exercise sort of gets overlooked. Um however, you know, endurance exercise, you know, such as a 40-kilometer time trial, still has sort of transient increases in non-oxidative metabolism. And there's definitely real-world applications given the fact that you know there may be times where you might have to outperform residual competitors, or you know, you have to go up a hill where you know a hydrogen ion accumulation is going like exponentially, which is how sort of bicarb's main mechanism is sort of uh you know, sort of known. Um, in terms of like the 40 kilometer time trail, uh you know, it was really trying to sort of pick something, pick a task that was reliable, uh validated, um, which there had been previous research suggesting that that would be the case. Um, and then something you know you would get uh people to complete in sort of like an hour or so. Um so that was the main sort of rationale. And then in terms of like cycling, I know you like mentioned like you know, the potential for like a run or whatever. Sort of my, you know, like you said about my research uh interest, you know, with the intervention is that like with the cycling time trial, you're able to really, you know, collect measures as you go. Um you can get sort of like metabolic measures uh in addition to sort of perception efforts quite easily with 95 microliter sort of blood samples, um, capillary samples to measure sort of bicarb and pH. Um so do being able to do that each quartile um was definitely, you know, that definitely was part of the reason why uh you know I was keen to sort of investigate uh the 40 kilometer time trial.
SPEAKER_00:Now let me ask you this, and this is sort of a sidebar, but you mentioned how you know the idea that it would help certainly short events like the 400-meter track or 800 meter, where you get quite an accumulation of uh hydrogen ions. Um if you look at the beta-alanine literature, and we're sort of shifting a little bit away from sodium bicarb, but I'm sure you've read the beta-alanine literature. Typically what you'll see is it seems to help advance, you know, up to like I think 240 seconds or something like that. When in fact I recommend beta-alanine for sports that certainly don't fit that model. For instance, I recommend it for mixed martial arts, any of the fight sports, and I I even recommend it for long distance running and cycling because of those surges. Uh, what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02:Uh just thoughts on like beta alanine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh, in terms of self-injustice for the longer endurance stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, yeah, exactly. Like like you said, like being able to recommend it for those sort of longer durations. Um, you know, uh, if I'm not mistaken, you know, it's an intracellular buffer, so it works on sort of like muscle carnosin. Um and um yeah, um, I would definitely say, you know, if you were to like look at the literature and look at sort of the studies that have been uh published, like you said, the 240 second range. Well, you know, the you know, obviously different mechanisms in terms of intracellular buffering versus extracellular buffering, but you know, the sense is is that like you know, we're it's almost like we're oversimplifying endurance exercise in the sense that you know it it's all steady state, where it isn't. And you know, essentially you're getting sort of uh you know trained athletes to come in, no one's gonna be uh at a lactate below their la their thresholds or you know anything like that. There's gonna be transient increases. Um, so although I'm not an expert on sort of intracellular buffering with regards to beta alanine supplementation, but in terms of like you know, the overlooking, like there would be events within sort of like uh a long duration time trial where the 240 seconds, you know, of high intensity, it would be um, you know, it it would be beneficial for.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it would be like a surge in any kind of race. Now, on average in your study, how much faster were cyclists? And these were male cyclists?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, these are trained male cyclists. Um, I think it was about you know equated to like a 1.4% increase, a small effect size, uh about like just under a minute, so about 54 seconds on average. Um, so that was the mean increase or the mean uh the mean improvement. Um obviously, you know, there were um a couple that didn't improve, obviously, which you get with every study. Um, and then you know, the majority of participants did improve. Um, so you know, we're looking at you know a small effect, and you know, I would translate that as small but meaningful. Um you know, it's not gonna be something that's gonna, you know, improve you by 10%, or it's not gonna be, you know, it's not like you know, it's only gonna work. It's gonna work on how hard you work. And the harder you're able to work, the better that sodium bicarbonate uh is gonna be able to help you. Um, so you know, those are sort of like the what you typically see with uh potential organ pen a potentially ergogenic aid for uh uh nutritional intervention.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think what'd you say it was 1.4% roughly? 1.4, yeah. 1.42, I think. I mean, there are cyclists who would die for 1.4% improvement. Yeah, so so despite, you know, I I know scientists get caught up in effect size and whatnot, but in the real world, as you know, that 1.4% could mean the difference between first place and sixth place. So exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I think another way you could put it is like it's it for a 40 kilometer time child, it's the difference between someone finishing above an hour and below an hour.
SPEAKER_00:No, which is huge.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um well, let me ask you this. Uh the the dosing, this is always an interesting question I get in terms of dosing, and sort of the traditional dosing is 0.3 grams per kg, I think. Now certainly most Americans don't think in grams per kg or grams per pound or anything, they just say give me a dose. So I guess first 0.3 grams per kg. Let's deal with that. What's the lowest possible effective dose in terms of grams per kg? And then the other question is if I don't want to hear grams per kg, give me actual grams. Like what's the lowest you think? Average, let's say you weigh 150 pounds roughly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so 150 pounds, I think that would be I'm not 100% with the conversion from kg to pounds because I work in kg just because the metric.
SPEAKER_00:But 70 kilos roughly.
SPEAKER_02:70 kilos perfect. Yeah, so 70 kilos would be about 21 grams of bicarb. 20 21 grams of sodium bicarb. If we're gonna go based off of the 0.3 grams per kilo, obviously, if you go to 0.1, that would be um that'd be seven, seven grams, so like a point. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:Would that be effective going that low?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, like, you know, there wouldn't, I haven't seen much literature that is like looked at like 0.1, 0.2. Like the traditional dose is like 0.3. Um, however, you know, with some, you know, depending on some uh delivery types of bicarb, whether you're gonna take it in solution or capsules or commercially available ingestion systems, um, you know, you'll still you might still see an increase uh in blood bicarbonate uh from potentially a 0.1 per 0.1 gram per kilo dose. Um but traditionally, yeah, everyone goes, you know, 0.3 grams per kilo, uh, it's likely to induce the you know the best sort of um uh you know uh acid-based balance change in blood bicarbonate and pH, um, likely to get like a five to six millimole per liter increase in blood HCO3. Um so you know, if we're talking about you know just playing it sort of like safe, I guess, with you know, if we're maximizing like the increase in blood bicarbonate, um, I would suggest, yeah, starting with like a point, a 0.2 to 0.3 grams per kilo, but it's definitely not a one-size fits all. Like it's uh, you know, different forms uh of bicarb um have different consequences. Um so yeah, I mean like it's uh but if we're just talking about maximizing sort of like the uh potential the potentially ergogenic effect of like increase in blood bicarb, it's like you're gonna get the greatest raise from 0.3 in comparison to 0.2 and 0.1.
SPEAKER_00:Would uh would more be better if I said hey, I'm gonna have you do 0.35 or 0.4 grams per kg? Would the ergogenic effect be greater?
SPEAKER_02:Um I would say that there's no research evidence to suggest that going above 0.3 would likely uh induce greater ergogenic effects, but it's really interesting. Like one of my sort of research interests is sort of like topping up, topping up with bicarb. Um, so basically being able to sort of like look at um sort of like you know, for longer duration events, you know, is it worth sort of like you know, increasing uh blood bicarbonate through like during the race where you're gonna expect a drop in blood HCO3? Um but you know, like it then you have to also think about okay, like how are we gonna sort of administer that? And the easiest way to administer that is through solution and giving like extra dosing of solution in compar like in addition to already ingested sort of capsules, um, you know, you might like you know, might be doing worse damage uh due to the potential sort of gastrointestinal side effects that you already alluded to. Um so you know, like yeah, uh in terms of like going more, I would say to choose wisely and definitely just practice with familiarity. But given the sort of sodium associated with it, you know, it's it's not really I would I wouldn't say it'd be wise to necessarily just go for uh a greater dose, uh, but definitely 0.3 is uh sufficient to induce alkalosis with all different types of bicarb, uh, from solution to capsules to commercially available ingestion systems.
SPEAKER_00:Now explain the there's the Morton bicarb system where you and I've seen these tablets because my wife uses them. Uh she's uh she's a competitive cyclist, and I'll be honest, it looks kind of gross. And it doesn't even taste that great. It's like maybe if they make this taste like candy, it'd be better. But anyway, explain this hydrogel and you know what's it trying to do? And and well, let's get to that first, then I have a follow-up question.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, so the hydrogel delivery system was sort of used like uh to deliver drugs, um, you know, pharmaceutical drugs, um, you know, uh in the 1900s. Um, and basically, you know, Wharton kind of came up with uh this basically being able to encapsulate uh bicarb, sodium bicarb within like the hydrogel. Um the hydrogel consists of 40 grams of carbohydrates, uh multiple transportable, and basically 200 ml uh of water. And essentially you're basically mixing this into creating a hydrogel, and you add these sodium bicarb mini tablets um corresponded to sort of your weight. So, you know, they'll create like a 0.3 and you'll basically calculate 21 grams if you're a 70 kg athlete of these mini tablets, uh, and compose them, and basically um you mixed it around, and essentially um the the company uh Morton recommends it from 90 to 120 minutes, which is similar to sort of like my data that suggests like, okay, like you know, that's their company recommendation in terms of ingestion um to gain a sufficient sort of metabolic uh increase in blood bicarbonate. Uh and yeah, the the the passage, like to put it plain and simple, really, is that these mini-tablets are delivered by the carbohydrate hydrogel, um delivered and passed through to the pyloric sincter, um, you know, small intestine. And essentially what that does is uh reduce the interaction with stomach acid where the gastrointestinal upset is thought to occur following the ingestion of uh sodium bicarbonate in aqueous solution or in capsules, uh gelatin capsules. So yeah, um the main thing with this ingestion system is the sense that okay, it reduces sort of gastrointestinal upset. Um and uh yeah, like that's uh one of the main sort of uh the benefits of it through that carbohydrate hydrogel delivery system.
SPEAKER_00:So the 90 minutes to 120 minutes, that's sort of the sweet spot for consuming free.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 90 to 120 minutes. I mean, I think when I um because I in my in the study that you referenced earlier, um with my studies that like you know, I took pharmacokinetic data at rest, so looked at the time to peak um from sodium bicarbonate where basically participants came in, these cyclists came in, they sat at rest for three hours basically. And essentially just you know, they ingest the Morton bicarb system, and you basically just take blood samples every 10 minutes to see where the highest peak uh of blood bicarbonate is in the blood. Um, and yeah, like you know, there's variability. Um, but generally speaking, you're gonna get like a sizable increase in blood HO3 from 90 to 120 minutes.
SPEAKER_00:You're taking blood samples every 10 minutes, every 10 minutes, yeah. Just capillary, just people to volunteer for that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh it's tough. I mean, it was just capillary samples, it wasn't venous puncture, but capillary samples, yeah. It's uh it can be yeah, I'm very thankful for all the volunteers, thankful for the participants, wouldn't have been able to really be done without them.
SPEAKER_00:But that's fingerprint.
SPEAKER_02:It's via fingerprinting. Yeah, fingerprint. Yeah, it wasn't venous puncture.
SPEAKER_00:It still hurts like hell.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, and I mean like look, like that 90 to 120 minute, it just it's essentially what that does is it just reduces the it increases the feasibility, right? So increases the feasibility of the ingestion system. You're not likely to get that with uh aqueous solution or uh other capsules, other gastro-resistant or gelat and vegetarian capsules, uh, because the inter individual variability uh for the peak responses using those capsules and aqueous solution um is it's a lot more finite. So uh essentially, like you're you it might be worth you know uh really doing like your time to peak measures for your different forms of bicarb. Whereas what we saw with this the hydrogel system is that like, okay, yeah, maybe they won't get like a five millimole per liter increase uh from the from the 90 to 120, it might be four and a half millimole per liter increase. But especially with endurance exercise, like from what we saw like with the the blood data during the time trial, is that it stays relatively elevated anyway. So it'll take a drop in the first 10 kilometers, which is usually associated with like uh a lot of power already used by the cyclist, because the cycles will always start off relatively quick in comparison to other parts of the time trial with the pacing strategy. That's when you'd see the biggest dip in sort of your blood bicarbonate blood pH. But then it sort of increases throughout the time trial during like the middle phases, and then at the end of the time trial in the last 10 kilometers, it'll go down the most. So, you know, in terms of like the blood bio, blood bicarbonate bioavailability, like suggesting that like that 90 to 120, like it really, you know, it's just to get a metabolic increase, sufficient increase, whether that's between five or a little bit below. Um, it's really more contingent on how it stays elevated throughout the time trial.
SPEAKER_00:No, I noticed in your study, I was looking at the individual individual data points, which is really cool. I like to see individual data points. Yeah, yeah. For the uh total time, I noticed, let's see, one two, there looks like there's a couple people who sort of stagnated. Uh one person seemed to decrease in performance. Yeah, sort of looked like they did. There's always this issue of responders and non-responders, and I've always thought I think everyone responds eventually. It's just a matter, I don't know if it's a matter of dosing, maybe it's just this person wasn't motivated. I don't know. But what are your thoughts on this responder-norresponder issue?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, it's uh it's quite a topic, really. Um, like I said previously, I feel like with any study, there's always going to be a few people that don't necessarily respond or you know have an ergolytic effect. Um but yeah, you know, it's uh it actually came up in my Viva. Um, I think there was like I had these individual pharmacokinetic data points, and essentially what I did from that data is I looked at sort of like how long does the blood stay elevated for you know about five millimoles per liter. And there was one participant that stayed elevated for sort of like uh, you know, only 10 minutes or something. Um, you know, how can that person have a potentially ergogenic effect if it's only staying elevated for 10 minutes? But you know, in comparison where some people stay elevated for way longer, prolonged period of time. Um, but in terms of yeah, like the responders and non-responders, yeah, I mean, like you said, like you alluded to like motivation. Um, you know, it's trying to keep everything, you know, trying to control the controllables with doing these types of studies. Um, but you know, like there's definitely possibilities that there are, like, specifically with sodium bicarbonate, um, especially with those that get um, you know, in my study, there weren't a ton of like GI upset, like it was relatively quite similar between the placebo condition and the bicarb condition, um, in terms of like, which, you know, it's such a hard thing to measure because there's different factors with regards to GI upset. We can go down the list in terms of anxiety, in terms of the actual familiarity with the hydrogel, like training with the hydrogel, the gut training. So you can't really even pin it down to okay, is it actually like the bicarb or not? Which it likely isn't uh in terms of that GI upset. But with the traditional forms of bicarb, when we're looking at like solution form, if we're looking at like capsules where like they interact with stomach, you know, those some of those non-responders that potentially get an ergolytic effect, it might be related to sort of like uh potentially like a genetic sort of variation where some people are just more susceptible to GI upset. Um, so you know, in terms of non-responders, that's probably what I would like say regarding uh, you know, different, different, but it could be due to anything, you know, until uh, you know, like it's very difficult to run a controlled study and control absolutely everything. Um, but yeah, it's just uh you do the best you can really.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm uh uh you know, I applaud you for getting someone to do a 48k time trial twice, because just recruiting subjects knowing that they have to do that, it's insanely hard. I don't know what it's like there, but here it's insanely hard because it was extremely difficult. A lot of it is they're like, Well, you're just gonna ruin my training. I mean, why would I do this for you when I I have to train, you know, for my race or whatever. But, anyways, um, a pragmatic question um if you have two races in one day, let's say you let's say you're doing both a 5k and 10k time trial cycling or whatever, whatever sport. Yeah, and the races are three hours apart. Okay, obviously you can do sodium bicarbon before the first race because you what you would. Would you do it before the second race, or what would the strategy be when you have two races in one day, you know, or multiple heats in one day?
SPEAKER_02:It's really interesting you said that. Yeah. Um, I was actually talking to someone in Germany that was like a swim coach or like helping out with like uh this the German swimming team during the Olympics, and uh he was telling me his strategy, and essentially what he was doing was like loading up with bicarb uh prior to the first race, but then obviously you want to give them enough bicarb so they get to the final or they get to the get from the semis to the finals, right? Um, and you know, anecdotally, like the the report was that like he was giving them bicarb, but not not equaling the whole 0.3 dose but prior to the semi. And then, you know, hopefully that person gets to the final, and then in between the semi and the final, give them the last bit of top-up because it's likely to recover as well. Like your your blood bicarbonate is likely to recover um to sort of like those in comparison to if you weren't to take bicarb. So um there's been some studies that have looked at sort of like the recovery aspect. So uh I think in one of the one of the other Morton uh sort of uh papers, they did the four kilometer repeated trials. Um, and then they they did a four-kilometer time trial, they waited 45 minutes, and their blood bicarb almost returned back to you know where it was pre-exercise. Um, so you know, I like I don't think there's any uh evidence to suggest that you need to go over the 0.3. It might just be about potentially um potentially taking at least maybe two-thirds of that dose prior to exercise because we've seen performance increases or performance benefits from 0.2 dose and then potentially topping up with the 0.1 in between the semis and the finals. Um, yeah, I mean it's really interesting. Um you just have to consider all things regarding potential GI upset, potentially. Um, and then yeah, you want to make the final as well. So um yeah, it's definitely it's definitely interesting.
SPEAKER_00:So something okay, so a 0.2 grams per kilo first race, maybe 0.1 grams per kilo second race.
SPEAKER_02:Potentially, yeah. Just not exceeding you know the the 0.3, not saying that if you do exceed it, it's gonna make it that much worse or anything. Um, it's just that, yeah, like that's a that would be a typical sort of loading strategy.
SPEAKER_00:If uh if GI if GI distress is not an issue, let's say you know, yeah, this athlete's like, I can you know eat cardboard and I don't have problems. So they would it be wise to do 0.3 grams per kilo because you want to do well initially. It would suck if you lowered the dose you didn't didn't do quite as well.
SPEAKER_02:So if you did 0.3 grams initially, then maybe 0.1 after for before the second one, or does that um it's interesting, yeah. I mean, like starting off with 0.3 um and then like doing a 0.1 potentially after. Um obviously you have to also consider the potential sodium increase as well. Like you wouldn't want to be doing that like every single but if it's like say like the eliminator, say if it's trials and it's like you know, a big sort of then you're like you know, if you're familiar with it, to do 0.3 and then a plus 0.1 after, um it yeah, I mean, like I would I would definitely suggest that that could be a viable option. Um, yeah, because like you said, you have to get there first. Um, and yeah, like you said, if the GI upset isn't an issue and they're taking it in potentially a gastro-resistant form, um, yeah, I wouldn't say that that would be necessarily a bad thing to do.
SPEAKER_00:What uh would there be issues with because you're consuming a lot of sodium. Um competing in hot weather like Florida, it's hot, so you're sweating a lot versus competing in in Canada where it's not hot. So how would you deal with that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so obviously, like the the hydration as well, the fluid retention, those are all things to consider. Uh, I know there's been some sort of evidence, uh, yeah, definitely like looking at potential hydration sets and hyperhydration potential with bicarb in the heat. Um, yeah, I mean, you'd have to definitely consider all of those sort of risks and seeing like how like how what your body weight is as well, with regards to sort of the sort of like how how that looks, like how much fluid are you actually like retaining? Um yeah, I would say there I wouldn't suggest like I would suggest that there isn't enough literature to suggest one way or or the other in terms of like those extreme sort of uh extreme environments. Um Um, but yeah, it's definitely something to to take into account.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think uh all that sodium could be an issue at all? I mean, because it's a bucket full of sodium.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely, definitely an issue. Definitely, it definitely can be. You know, this isn't something to like, you know, sodium bog itself, it's not something to ingest every day. I think Morton actually suggests you only have it like twice a week or something if you're gonna use it for training. Um so I think, yeah, like using it for performances, using it for important competition, but also familiarizing yourself with it prior to competition as well to avoid any of those potential adverse sort of like situations. Um, so essentially, yeah, like you know, that is like you know, uh a large consumption of sodium associated with each 0.3 grams per kilo dose. Um, and that's like sort of like the you know, the ethical or like the issue with potentially topping up as well. It just depends on how much you're actually using it. Like if you're using it in training um for potentially increasing training adaptations, if you're using it just in performance, um, yeah, so it's definitely something to it's definitely something to consider.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Last question. This one's kind of a funny one because there have been a lot of knockoff products, of which Flycard is one of them. I've uh it's it's funny. Flycard on Instagram, they're always talking about how their their product uh decreases lactic acid, and I always give them a hard time. I get on there on I DM them, I'm like, what the hell are you guys talking about? This lactic acid stuff. And they say this is what they say, they're like, Well, our consumers like that word, so this is the word we use. So yeah, what do you think? What do you think of that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, you know, like, you know, it's so debunked, the lactic acts to sort of, you know, the term they thought in frog mussels or amphibians, and uh, you know, ever since then it's just this sort of concept. And it's it's really unfortunate listening to, I'm not sure what's like in the States, but in the UK, like a lot of like when there's swimming championships, like the swimming trials of the world championships, if there's track and field, or if there's, you know, they're saying like, oh, they're flushing out the lactic acid, they're flushing it. It's just it's not, you know, we know that, you know, when you're actually, I would say this, you know, like we know when you're exercising, when you're pushing hard, you know, you're creating lactate, you're creating hydrogen ion accumulation in the muscle. Although we know that both hydrogen ions and lactate have uh, you know, a positive linear relationship in terms of the correlation between the two sort of uh the two the proton and the anion. However, we know we also know that lactate is now used as oxidizable substrate and can use as a fuel intermediary for you know other importance and other important organs in the body. Um, so in terms of yeah, the lactic acid, I mean, like maybe it's uh a selling point to some sort of consumers that like to buy the products, and if that's like uh a selling point, then fair play. But scientifically it's uh it's incorrect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's just hilarious that the word lactic acid's been thrown around really for the last half century, and it never seems to die. So I always yeah, I always get a good chuckle when I see these ads. I'm like, what's wrong with you guys over fly carb? And and they they must hate me because I keep giving them a hard time. So at least Morton doesn't do it, they don't do the lactic acid.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Eli, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Hey, if you're ever in the States, if you're ever in South Florida, you know, look me up. I mean, it's perfect weather here all year. So if you want to escape the gray clouds and the cold weather, South Florida is it. And if you ever want to present at ISSN, we hold our national conference every middle of June. And it's always in South Florida, so you could work on your tan, you could talk science, have a beer, whatever. I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
SPEAKER_02:Uh that sounds great. Yeah, I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:So thank you. Uh hey, congrats on finishing your PhD and thank you for being on the show. I'll have this uploaded probably in a day or so, and I will send you a uh send you an email letting you know.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me on.
SPEAKER_00:All right, thanks, Eli.